‘The Odyssey’ Deep Dive

Summary

House of R – "The Odyssey" Deep Dive

Hosted by Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson
Episode Date: July 18, 2026

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Overview

In this epic, nearly two-hour deep dive, Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson dissect and celebrate Christopher Nolan’s ambitious adaptation of Homer’s The Odyssey. With their trademark blend of scholarship and enthusiasm, the duo explore Nolan’s connections across his filmography, mythological context, character analysis, cinematic craft, and themes of memory, guilt, storytelling, and homecoming. The conversation weaves in translation philosophy, the myth’s legacy, and why this modern masterpiece resonates both as a piece of cinema and cultural storytelling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Impressions & Nolan in Context

• Initial Reactions ([08:15])
  • Both hosts are effusive, deeming Nolan’s Odyssey a modern masterpiece and “favorite movie of the year.”
  • Mallory underlines the film’s reinterpretation of themes about time and guilt previously explored in Oppenheimer—“the Trojan horse as the atomic bomb” ([12:15]).
  • Joanna emphasizes the experience of seeing the film “on the biggest screen possible — this is a movie-movie."
• Nolan’s Filmography Threads ([13:42])
  • Connections are drawn between The Odyssey and Nolan’s previous work — especially Oppenheimer, Inception, and Interstellar — noting how themes of home, family, memory, and consequence are refracted in new ways.
  • Insightful callbacks to visits from prior guests, like Chris Ryan and R. F. Kuang, deepening thematic bridges across Nolan’s films.

“These are the two movies back to back that feel like he’s like, I wasn’t done with this story... The Trojan horse is the atomic bomb.”
— Joanna Robinson ([11:39])

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2. Adaptation: Myth in the Modern Lens

• The Nature of Adaptation ([14:15], [15:00])
  • Mallory discusses how Nolan’s approach is not just to retell known stories, but “to root itself in the moment, tell us something about humanity… the nature of existence, what is fixed and what is unchanging.”
  • They reflect on The Odyssey as a foundational myth for reworking and transposing stories across generations.

"How do myths move and evolve or stay rooted over time?... It worked in a way that almost defies belief.” — Mallory Rubin ([16:21])

• Modern Language & Cinema ([110:10])
  • The use of contemporary language (“Dad,” “Mom”) sparked discussion, with Joanna less enamored: “Didn’t love it. Not my favorite part of the movie.” ([110:19])
  • Mallory concedes the approach “rewards and really kind of demands” theatrical viewing.

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3. Translation and Thematic Scholarship

• Translations of Homer ([46:52])
  • Emily Wilson’s translation is praised for accessibility and modern prose.
  • The hosts read and compare opening lines from several translators, noting how each shades Odysseus differently—“complicated man," "man of twists and turns," "skilled in all ways of contending." ([67:35])
  • Wilson’s approach is linked to the film’s accessible yet scholarly tone.

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4. Building the Nolan Myth: Cast & Performance

• Acting Ensemble ([38:39], [41:08])
  • No specific performances declared Oscar-worthy ("my favorite performance by a comfortable margin was Pattinson. Ok. I thought he was like, amazing." — Mallory Rubin [42:55]); instead, the cast is “iconic, mythic, archetypal” in their roles, suiting the legendary scope.
  • Anne Hathaway as Penelope is commended for grounding the emotional and feminist core of the story ([112:22]).
  • Tom Holland as Telemachus is characterized as “a little weak, but I also think Telemachus is a weak character. So, like, by design...” — Joanna ([41:23])
  • Matt Damon’s Odysseus blends “charm… [as] a necessary counterweight to… mistakes and decisions that we see" ([42:28]).

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5. Core Themes and Concepts

a. Defying the Gods / Fate and Free Will ([48:56], [53:37])

• The film significantly removes the classic, overt appearances of gods, except an ambiguous, possibly spectral Athena (played by Zendaya).
• Odysseus’s stance is more skeptic, with commentary from his men about faith and fate (“Give yourself up to the gods"). ([61:30])
• The film asks: Is human agency possible in a world shaped by mythic fate?

b. Heroism and Moral Ambiguity

• “Polytropos” — Odysseus as “man of many turns/lies/skills” ([65:10], [67:35])
• Greek “hero” equates to “warrior,” not necessarily virtue—Odysseus is both savior and architect of his own misery.
• The film leans into his faults as a tactician, liar, and unreliable narrator — “the great man” as deified but also broken and guilt-ridden.

“...the thing that other people worship you for, deify you for, the myth that will be told and passed along… is the source of your great shame.”
— Mallory Rubin ([31:14])

c. Memory and Storytelling (Meta-Narrative)

• The movie’s frequent changes in narrator and time reflect both Nolan’s style and Homer’s tradition ([81:51]).
• Who tells the story? The structure itself mirrors the “oral tradition,” compounding themes of unreliable narrative, myth-making, and the loss and recovery of knowledge.
• Metatextually, the movie interrogates “what is home, what is lost, what is myth, what is truth?”

“The telling of the tale makes us complicit in the story.”
— Joanna Robinson ([82:37])

d. Guilt, Consequences, and Generational Legacy

• The Trojan Horse is portrayed as a civilizational “original sin” paralleling the atomic bomb—its consequences fracture worlds, myth, and memory ([12:00], [138:10]).
• The movie concludes with Odysseus going into exile, as the Mediterranean world enters a real historical Dark Age, foregrounding the generational weight of violence ([139:08]).

e. Home, Waiting, and the Family Trifecta

• Echoes of Interstellar and Nolan’s prior work on “trying to get home.”
• The juxtaposition of heroic journey with personal estrangement—a weary Odysseus, a waiting Penelope, an unformed Telemachus ([117:10]).
• The Argos scene—Odysseus’s dog who waits and recognizes his master—is emotionally pivotal (“It was just beautiful” — Mallory [96:03]).

f. Hospitality and Violation (Zenia/Guest Right)

• The Greek law of hospitality is central—everyone violates it at some point: Paris, Odysseus, the suitors ([77:24]).
• The ultimate violation (the Trojan Horse) brings about cultural collapse and the Dark Ages:
  “To burn the walls of Troy was to burn the world entire.”
  — Joanna Robinson ([80:43])

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6. Cinematic Achievement & Analysis

• Crushing practical effects and immersive IMAX sequences (“the practical aspect of his filmmaking…”—Mallory [103:19]), especially in the Cersei’s pig transformation and massive battle scenes.
• Visually and sonically overwhelming: Ludwig Goranson’s score is called a “cardiac event,” and the climactic and Sirens sequences are repeatedly flagged as exhilarating highlights ([31:06], [126:35]).

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7. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Odyssey’s Universality & Innovation:

  "I just think it’s extraordinary… to layer in this idea that, to me, feels innovative—when we get to the end… the Trojan horse is the atomic bomb. Are you kidding me? I was like, this is a fucking masterpiece."
  — Joanna Robinson ([11:39])

  "We broke the world, and now Telemachus is inheriting that throne … as I grow older… how does that change his own feeling of complicity, guilt, all of that sort.”
  — Joanna ([28:16])

• On Memory and Myth-Making:

  "Who’s telling the story? Who will remember what? … the telling of the tale makes us complicit in the story."
  — Joanna ([81:51])

• On the Siren Song:

  “Told what you most want is what you most can’t have. And what you most can’t have is what you already had and lost. Told me I didn’t want to go home.” ([127:36])
  — Joanna (reciting the movie)

• On Hospitality (Zenia):

  “To burn the walls of Troy was to burn the world entire. In doing this transgression of all we hold dear as people and safety in the world… destroyed.”
  — Joanna ([80:43])

• On the Absence of the Gods:

  “Odysseus says… don’t look for gods in men. You’ll just be disappointed.”
  — Joanna ([51:31])

• On Penelope:

  “I thought she was great. … genuine connection and affection between them in that sequence is really important because you understand why she is ... there’s the practical aspect for both of them, but then there’s also the real, like, this is the person that I love.”
  — Mallory ([113:00])

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8. Favorite and Standout Sequences

• The Trojan Horse, told in three acts:
  Profound, cross-cutting perspective shifts (Sinan, Menelaus, Odysseus) build complicity and pathos ([81:51] – [86:41]).
• The Cersei and Underworld Sequences:
  Praised for their horror, haunting body horror transformation makeup ([119:10], [121:46]).
• The Siren Song:
  An emotional and thematic high point, highlighted for its ambiguous sound design and devastating lyrics ([125:39]).

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9. Awards, Rankings, and the “Most Nolan” Film Debate

• Consensus: In their Nolan rankings, Odyssey is top-five, maybe top-three (“is it in my top three? Probably, I think so.” — Joanna [10:07]).
• On performances: Matt Damon may land a narrative Oscar, but the film is not structured to showcase singular performances ([40:38]).
• Likely Oscar front-runners per the hosts: Picture, Director, Score, and either Cinematography or Screenplay ([144:30]).

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• 08:15 – First big-picture impressions
• 13:42 – Threads with Nolan’s filmography
• 18:45 – Third act discussion (“literally a masterpiece”)
• 31:06 – Ludwig Goranson score appreciation
• 37:52 – “Most Nolan” movie debate
• 41:08 – Performance breakdowns
• 46:52 – Translation & language
• 51:31 – The gods and fate/ambiguity
• 61:30 – Fate, free will, and guilt
• 67:35 – “Polytropos” and the nature of heroism
• 77:24 – Xenia/Guest right: hospitality, violation
• 81:51 – Storytelling perspective, myth-making
• 96:02 – Argos, the “Boy Who Waited”
• 103:19 – Practical effects and makeup craft
• 117:10 – Penelope’s pivotal scenes
• 119:10 – Horror elements: Cersei & Cata-basis
• 125:39 – The Sirens (musical sequence)
• 127:36 – Siren Song quote, emotional resonance
• 139:08 – The collapse of civilization and legacy
• 144:30 – Oscar picks debate

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Conclusion

The episode stands as a definitive, joyous excavation of the intersections between myth, adaptation, and 21st-century cinema. Joanna and Mallory explore The Odyssey as not just a retelling, but as a reckoning with memory, legacy, consequence, and the enduring human need to find — or create — home. Nolan’s film, like its source, becomes both a mirror and a torch, illuminating our own stories and the universality of longing, regret, and the search for meaning.

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Final Notable Quote

“In Greek mythology, memory is said to be the mother of muses, because poetry, music, and storytelling are all imagined as modes by which people remember the times before they were born... That’s why Christopher Nolan makes movies. That’s why we watch them.”
— Mallory Rubin ([141:43])

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For more segmented analyses or further thematic dives (e.g., discussions of specific scenes, translation comparisons, or myth versus adaptation breakdowns), see [detailed timestamps above].

Transcript

[Mallory Rubin]

Foreign.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hello. Welcome back to House of Aura. I'm Joanna Robinson. And as the rosy fingered dawn breaks over the wine dark sea, she has wise eyes, Athena's eyes. It's Mallory Rubin.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the godlike goddess like Joanna Robinson. What a joy to be here with you to talk about this genuine masterpiece of a movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

An absolute masterpiece. A movie we absolutely loved. It's the Odyssey. We can't wait to talk about it right after this.

[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

I'm a little killer. I'm a movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

From Anne Rice's immortal universe comes what Vulture calls the most momentous event in fictional rock history.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

we are thrilled to share that the Ringiverse team, the Midnight Boys, Pew Pew and the House of R will be returning to San Diego ComicCon this July.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're kicking off on Thursday, July 23rd at Whiskey Girl for a Ringerverse fan meetup. No badge required. We'll be there for an hour or so starting around 6:30, so come say hi, grab a drink, celebrate with us

[Mallory Rubin]

and then on Saturday, July 25th at 10:30am come to our panel. Comic Con badge holders can find the Midnight Boys, Pew Pew and the House of R correct in room 5 AB on the upper level of the convention center for a Ringerverse supergroup panel. We're gonna be discussing the franchises that have dominated nerd culture this year and taking stock of what's to come.

[Joanna Robinson]

So whether you're local to San Diego or in town for Comic Con, we'd love to see you at Whiskey Girl on Thursday. We or if you're a badge holder, join us on Saturday, July 25th for our panel.

[Mallory Rubin]

See you in San Diego.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, quick programming reminders. House of the Dragon continues apace. We've got the deep dives coming out whenever they come out. And the Talk of Thrones comes out on Sundays. We right after the episodes drop. Lestat finale on Monday.

[Mallory Rubin]

No screener.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exciting. Very exciting.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't wait to see what's in there.

[Joanna Robinson]

San Diego Comic Con is next week.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

We will be there. We have a meet and greet Thursday at Whiskey Girl. You do not need a badge for it. There's probably. You probably just watched an ad for this, but I'm just going to say it again anyway. And then our panel is Saturday morning. You need a badge for that. Please, please come. Please clap.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, come, come to both. But you know, we'd love to see you at the panel.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll be in Baltimore in August.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. For the O's event, we have Ooze.

[Joanna Robinson]

We have another local event that we don't think we can officially announce yet, but that's also in August, so we got a lot coming up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Geez, what a time. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

How can folks keep track of all the things we're doing?

[Mallory Rubin]

Here's what I'd recommend. Follow the Pod. Follow House of R. Why not on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys on Spotify. You should also follow the Ringiverse YouTube channel. You can watch our episodes there as well. While you're at it, follow the newish

[Joanna Robinson]

ish outhouse of our

[Mallory Rubin]

social handles at house of our pod, Instagram, TikTok. We're having a great time over there, you know. So check out the breakouts from the pods, some memes, some behind the scenes photos. Who knows what we'll post from Comic Con.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, yeah, San Diego, plenty to go on. And email us hobbitsanddragonsmail.com the inbox is always open. The HotD emails have been out of control. The Lestat emails are great. We got a couple Odyssey emails, but we're recording this a little early in the Odyssey run. So, like, not a ton of Odyssey emails. Though a listener did months ago recommend an Odyssey podcast to me. It's called Odyssey, the podcast. And I did listen to it and it was fantastic. So thanks to that listener. I do take your advice. Sometimes listeners shout out to Bhad Bhabie. Spoiler warning. Yeah, for Homer. Or Homer.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Various dudes named Homer. The Iliad, the Odyssey. This movie which if you haven't seen it yet, you should go see. Yes, we'll be talking about it in depth. Any Nolan movie?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think so, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything else? History. Ish. Disputed history.

[Mallory Rubin]

Troy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Troy. Ilium.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ulysses, the great Wishbone episode based on the Odyssey.

[Joanna Robinson]

Simpson episode. That's Homer's Odyssey.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh brother, where art thou?

[Joanna Robinson]

Uh huh. Absolutely the constant. That episode of loss. Penny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Penny, you waited.

[Joanna Robinson]

Penny, you answered. Oh man, it's Friday afternoon. I have a coffee, a water and I'm still quaffing mead. So we're doing our best.

[Mallory Rubin]

Look at you here.

[Joanna Robinson]

The holy trilogy Trinity. We're doing our best. Should we go to the opening snapshot?

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's do it. All right, quick facts. This was directed by Christopher Nolan. Have you heard of him? Written by Christopher Nolan, story by Homer. Have you heard of him? Or the various peoples you go by? Homer. Score by Ludwig Goranson. 172 minute runtime. Just shy of three hours so far. Again, we're recording this Friday afternoon. So it's early in the run.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Quite a popular film.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Uh huh. 96, 97 on Rotten Tomatoes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

89. 5.6 on Metacritic. Box office tracking is a little early to tell, but $17.6 million just for Thursday night previews alone. And I know that they were doing like here in Los angeles. There are 3am Screenings that they're doing that are sold out. Our is our pal Kai Grady was telling me he was trying to get seats for like the three like he's like even the 3am screenings are sold out for IMAX. For IMAX, like 70 millimeter and stuff like that. So yeah, this is according to Deadline. Currently we're hearing an opening frame of 85 to 100 million domestic with another 110 million overseas. So that's 200 million. Perhaps just an opening weekend. Possibly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it going to get to a billion? I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oppenheimer did.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would like to see it a couple more times. Oppenheimer got just shy of a billion roundup. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Will it get to 900 something million? Sure. Absolutely. Yes. I believe it'd be fun if it crossed a billion though. That would be great. Yeah. $250 million budget to operate against, not to mention the advertising budget. Quick overall impressions of the Odyssey. Mallory Rubin, you and I have seen this together. Ish. We were not sitting together the first time. We were sitting closer together the second time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I did get to hear you cry the second time. We saw the movie at a very

[Mallory Rubin]

predictable location, I think.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tell us your big picture thoughts about this movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought it just was fantastic. I mean, I love it. I actually had originally secured tickets for yesterday to see it in imax, so I was like, man, I'm gonna get to see this three times before we record, because we got to screen it twice. And I was delighted by the prospect of sitting in a movie theater for north of three hours three times and can't wait more than a week. Wasn't able to pull it off yesterday. Returned those tickets out into the world where they were scooped up eagerly. But yeah, I can't wait to see it again already. I look forward to seeing this multiple times, not only in the near term here, but to revisit this over time to come back to it after. Nolan makes more movies. So much of his filmography feels like it is connected to this and was pointing toward this that it's like so fascinating to contemplate where he goes from here, what happens next. But I think the nature of his filmography to date and the shared threads and common themes and interests, but different ways that he explores them and dabbles with them across character sets, literally time. And also like the actual, you know, the passage of time, but also the way he explores time genres. Every one of his movies gets richer when you go back to it and consider the stuff that he's made in the wake of it. So, you know, this movie I thought was like a genuine modern masterpiece. It's my favorite movie of the year. It's. We're going to wait till I think, reveal our complete Nolan film power rankings until the opposite Oppenheimer pod, which in, let's just say it was the plan all along and not a product of me being gravely ill and deep distress and pain all week and not being able to get to that. That we're going to do that after. And I think that will actually be interesting and fun to go back to that in a couple weeks. We'll probably do the whole power ranking of our films then at the end of that pod. But this is really high on the list.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, it's without question in my top five.

[Mallory Rubin]

No. Oh, no question.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it in my top three? Probably, I think so where it goes from there I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's the hard part.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was always going to love this, I think, just because of its connection to a classic piece of literature that I have studied for years and years and find fascinating. So, like, I was in the tank in the way that, like, certain people are in the tank for, like, a Nolan Batman movie. You know, like, whatever the subject matter is, I'm like, okay, I'm already, like, 85% there. And then you add on top of that, you know, the cast that we'll talk about. And also just Nolan's absolutely overwhelming visuals. You know, the ambition of the IMAX filming for this. For this movie, and just sort of like, the sense of enormity and just sort of like, you know, we talk all the time about, like, how few directors there are in Hollywood who are even doing this or can do this anymore have the luxury of making something that feels as big as this did. But this just felt like. And I felt this way watching the Dune movies, and certainly in some points during an Oppenheimer and plenty of other Nolan movies, but just that seeing it on the biggest screen possible, which. Shout out. Maybe I'll go up to San Francisco to see it on the Metreon. Because Shout out the Metreon, that is still the biggest IMAX screen. And I missed it for this movie. But seeing all the biggest Scream possible with a full theater. The second viewing we went to was a full theater. And just sort of like, just, you're at the movies. This is a movie movie. And it's just like, I felt so lucky. I also think it's my favorite film of the year. I love Project Hail Mary, but, like, me too. This. This is just extraordinary. I was always gonna love it. I think also, doing our Nolan rewatch, which we did, really, really enhanced my enjoyment of it. And even the Oppenheimer prep that I did for the episode that we didn't get to record. Like, I spent a lot of the weekend with Oppenheimer, and that was really fruitful because when we came out of our first screening of this, you and I both were like, wow, there's a lot of Oppenheimer in this. And then just, like, rewatching Oppenheimer and studying, like, all the themes of that movie and how it hits with Nolan, and just to think how interesting it is, even though we've watched his filmography out of order, you know, the way that he reiterates certain themes, for sure. But I feel like between Oppenheimer and Odyssey, these are the two movies back to back that feel like he's like, I wasn't done with this story. And not only that, but he takes the ideas of Oppenheimer, which is like the guilt of this tremendous original sin. You know, a great man, a complicated man, a flawed man and his horrible invention and how it potentially broke the world like that is just to take that idea of Oppenheimer and apply it to the Odyssey, a book that has been translated and studied, maybe, you know, a text has been translated and studied maybe more than any other. And to layer in this idea that, to me feels innovative. Like when we get to the end of this movie and Odysseus, via his own recollection, flashback, is regarding the burning Trojan horse. And I'm like, oh, my God, the Trojan horse is the atomic bomb. Are you kidding me? I was like, this is a fucking masterpiece. I just think it's extraordinary. Was there when you were watching the film, was there a film from our rewatch other than Oppenheimer or in addition to Oppenheimer, or maybe you want to talk about Oppenheimer yourself, that felt most rewarding that we spent time with? And was it Inception when you saw him with Penelope's pin and Sidon's lot and all these other tokens that show

[Mallory Rubin]

up all the totems everywhere in this movie? I love a totem, as you know. I love Inception. I mean, I think the truth is it's the entire. All of it filmography. It's all of it. There's not a single movie that he's made that doesn't have some strand that connects to them. I think it's fun to go through each of them individually and think about the most germane. It was actually fun to think about. Now, looking back at our pods where that was the closing category, what are we most anticipating about the Odyssey and thinking about regarding the Odyssey after talking about that movie. And sometimes that was a thematic or textual.

[Joanna Robinson]

You were on the theme beat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Sometimes it was not. Sometimes it was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sometimes I was like Hemesh Patel. I'm really excited. That paid off for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, he was just sensational and very central to the film. So all of the movies are worth talking about, you know, and maybe we run through them very rapid fire, lightning round in that respect. But I think it's also interesting more broadly to think about them in clusters of original work and adaptation. Right. And something even beyond just adaptation. Adaptation, like to your Oppenheimer point, and thinking about those as the two most recent films, the films that are back to back, the films that he made at you Know what I think is just undeniably, like, the peak of craft and filmmaking power for this generation of. I mean, like, we're Villeneuve heads. I think he would be in, you know, the top of my list for, like, the current directors making movies that are most important to me and that I think are the best. But, you know, Nolan is, like, a defining filmmaker of this stretch of time, the last couple decades. And, you know, Oppenheimer and the Odyssey are adaptations, but, like, so are the Batman films, you know, And I think, like, thinking about the Batman movies and the Odyssey not just as adaptations and, like, what is the Nolan spin on a story we're very familiar with, Right? It's like, how does he put something that feels fresh and unique, but still. And this is like, we talk a lot about Nolan magic tricks, but this is, I think, one of the really undeniable ones. It somehow, to your use the word innovative, like, it feels fresh and new when it is also simultaneously inherently this is part of his objective, trying to be universal, trying to root itself in the moment or in the place, but tell us something about humanity, the nature of existence, what is fixed and what is unchanging. And so there's no better text to do that with than the Odyssey, I think you could argue, because some of that is inside of the story, but some of it is just about the nature of adaptation. How do myths move and evolve or stay rooted over time? And so, you know, I have enjoyed making a bit out of the response to the, like, modern language, dad, Daddy, you know, in the trailers, because it's been, I think, amusing to see, like, you know, pining for a daddy become a meme and stuff, but actually sitting down to consume the movie. For me, and I think clearly, for a lot of the critics and just moviegoers who have seen it so far, it worked in a way that almost defies belief. Like, it is such a perfect modern lens through which to assess the story. The end. Note the role of, like, one man, the great man complex, as you noted, but also more broadly, how we think about civilization, how we think about destruction and despair, how we think about longing and yearning and home, but also what your decisions bring and unleash into the world. You can't have the lessons that end this movie filmmaker operating in this time be divorced from the time in which they're made. It's just impossible, right? But also it feels like a rendering of the epic that is 3,000 years old. So it's just kind of amazing. And I think, yeah, like, to the imax Point. I mean, the visuals are. A lot of Nolan movies are beautiful. You know, we've enjoyed talking about the set pieces and the visuals as we've gone. They're gorgeous films. But like, this is just amazing to look at. I mean, it's just breathtaking. The score is astonishing. I really like going to see movies, movies at the theater with my friends. But I do as, you know, sometimes like push back a little bit against the. You gotta see it on the biggest screen possible. And I'm like, it's okay to watch a movie at home if you prefer, like, that's fine. I'm like, really doing the. You gotta go see it on the biggest screen possible. With everyone I know, it just feels like it not only rewards that, but really kind of demands that. And so it's just like an astonishing, astonishing feat. There was like, I think, a 10 minute period of acclimating to the cadence and rhythm and pace. And then once you have a feel for that, you're man, I just am buying in completely to this version of the text.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say for me, I love the whole thing. The thing I bumped on on Oppenheimer, which we'll talk about eventually in the Oppenheimer pod, is the third act of Oppenheimer. A lot of people had issue with the third act of Oppenheimer and that's something I bump on and felt more warmly towards this last time I watched it. The third act of this movie is where it just jumps into a higher level. So like when I was watching the first two hours of this movie, I was like, this is good. And then I. Then the third hour hit and I was like, this is literally a masterpiece.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so then when you come to that conclusion, then you get to rewatch it and you just sort of like knowing that that's coming and sort of picking out the threads of the themes and the track that's being laid. I also am just so grateful that we did this Nolan project because I was like, I remember especially when we had like some, you know, friends. I use that so like loosely for the award winning author we had on here. But like, you know, when Chris Ryan was on here and he was talking about. I think every Nolan movie is about getting home. When we were talking about Dunkirk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And what that unlocked for me, not just about, in my anticipation for the Odyssey, but just sort of like how I then like sort of tried to think about that idea and apply it to like all of Nolan's movies. That was like a fascinating insight from Chris When Arf Kuang, Rebecca Kwong, like, came on and talked to us about the idea of the family, the nuclear family, and how she feels like all of Nolan's movies are about this, or at least his latter day movies, and how this is like, in her defense of Tenet, what a beautiful sort of unironic, wholehearted and very human in a director that gets accused of being cold sometimes. Theme that is. So to marry this idea of, like, all of Nolan's stories about trying to get home and all of Nolan's stories, or at least lately have been about sort of the nuclear family, however you define it, and all the other observations that all of our pals who came on to talk about, talked about, I just found that I just felt like we had gone to school with, like, some of our smartest pals. And then, like, it really helped me feel all the way in on this, a movie that I was gonna enjoy anyway, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I agree. It's been such a treat to spend the last year thinking about the work and seeing what feels kind of like a shared takeaway or response to a given movie and what feels like maybe more in the eye of the beholder or what observes over time, again, with the additional context of, like, how his overall oeuvre has formed, that is the bringing up what Rebecca said about family. It makes me think too, like, not only is it interesting to compare this film, Nolan's version of the Odyssey, to the epic, to the poem itself, but to other adaptations. I think that's also where what did he choose to emphasize and lean into can be unlocked. So, like, I don't know if you think of something like the Return from a couple years ago, the Ralph Fiennes movie where he shows his dick. So I would recommend it for that alone. He's very important. That movie is a really different telling in a couple different respects, one of which is just as the name indicates, it's focused on when Odysseus gets back to Ithaca and that stretch of the story, that's the film. But one of the real, real differences that after you watch the Odyssey is, I would say, almost like shocking to consider and confront is the way in which Telemachus receives Odysseus. Right? And the. The way that there can be a version of the story that is rooted in longing and desperation and then gratitude and awe and appreciation. And there's a version of the story which, like, spoilers for the Return that's like, I don't know you, man, and where have you been? And look what happened to this place while you were gone.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then more realistic version of the story.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And there's, like, all sorts of permutations, you know, along the spectrum. That's part of what's interesting about seeing how the text is rendered across different versions. Or, you know, we already mentioned, like, oh, brother, Ulysses. But this is a text that people pour into, much like, you know, Pride and Prejudice is Bridget Jones. Right. The Odyssey, some of our great works. Truly, the Odyssey is something where people can take the journey and the trials and port that into stories where characters have different names in the trials, or maybe they don't. Maybe it's still Ulysses. Right. And so that's interesting, too. But, yeah, like, I think the effort to get home and the relationship to family, undeniable. The great man complex and the guilt that the great man carries, the culpability that the great man carries, and the ability to show us that complexity in a way that feels really necessary, I think. Right. Like, to really interrogate what achievement looks like and means. But also, of course, memory, you know, deception. The idea of the disguise. When we go back to, like, the very beginning of the filmography, the first film, Nolan made, a mini film. Right. Following which we had such a really kind of like, transcendent experience, I think, watching for the first time and talking about. And talking about what a blueprint it clearly was for everything that he explored after, you know, this question of, like, not only just deception in disguise, but self deception.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who do you want to be and who do you think you can be? And then where does that lead you?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And who. And, you know, we'll talk about the Sirens moment later, which to me was like, the first mic drop of the movie. And then we get to the later mic drop of the movie. But, like, this idea of, like, Odysseus defined in myth and legend and history as the man who was trying to get home. And this idea of the Sirens saying, like, you don't really want to go home. Right. And why. And why would a man take so long to get home? You know, in this version, he's beset by this, that, and the other. In other versions, he's just sort of like, I'll stay a year on Cersei's island. Why not? You know what I mean? Like, what is the shilling and the shallying? And also. Yeah, let's just talk about the Odyssey for a second. This is Odysseus account of why it took him 18 years to get home. And he's like, there was a witch and a Cyclops and all these hot goddesses made me. Had sex with them. And I don't know what to tell you. Why I'm 18 years late. Penelope, I'm so sorry. This is my story. But, like, I was thinking of Memento so much. This idea of being like the arch, not being able to know yourself, but also the architect of your own, you know, tragedy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think with Memento for the comp, not only for the character and the story, but for us as an audience member, that Memento felt really crucial. Like, there's the memory, but the way that we. There is so much that is revealed to us about Leonard later at the very end. Yeah. So that's. There's a real parallel there that is, I think, quite interesting. And, of course, also that's a trying to return to your wife story in addition to a memory story. So that's there, you know, insomnia. I think it gives us the memory. It gives us also kind of the haze, you know, Could Al Pacino and insomnia just be eating lotus flower instead of not sleeping? Cause it's always sunny.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why not? If Charlize had been there serving him lotus flower, who wouldn't?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think we talked about the Batman stuff a little bit already, but that, you know, with Gotham, and we had such fun talking with Vos about Gotham as a character and Gotham as a really central aspect of the Nolan treatise in exploring Batman. But there's also the, like, the. Of course, the Joker element, and just like the dark mirrors that you not only have to contend with and face, but inspire, but also, again, the way

[Joanna Robinson]

in which you're the architect of your own misery. Like, what. What did Bruce do in the first movie that comes back to haunt him in the third movie? Or how are the sins of Gotham itself? You know, the. You know, the engine behind a lot of the story that happens in the Batman movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. The moral ambiguity of the central figure, I think an undeniable parallel with. With Batman, a hero to many, but a vigilante and one who at some point says, they're gonna need this other guy instead. Can't be me.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's interesting in terms of his complicated heroes, which is something that he's always been interested in. I think they're just getting dicier and dicier in a way that I enjoy. Like, I think if you take Robert Oppenheimer and Odysseus and, like, put them up against, like, Cobb, who you're, like, cobbling. I have some questions for you, Cobb, about, like, limbo. And Mal and all these things that happen. But like he looks like a boy scout compared to like, you know, we

[Mallory Rubin]

broke the world, you know, is definitely something more. Especially given how non linear Nolan's stories are. Thinking about that linear evolution in his work is really interesting because you're right, there's something that is much more. This is kind of gnarly way to put it, but intimate about the transgressions in like the Prestige or Inception. It is much more rooted inside of a person, a relationship. One show Inception takes it into a like,

[Joanna Robinson]

what do you.

[Mallory Rubin]

What the world building aspect is it of course in the dreamscape. So it's there a little bit. But I think you're right that the. The march towards something like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, if you think of something like Interstellar, which has so many tendrils in common with the Odyssey in terms of like a man's journey there and back again and all this sort of stuff like that. But despite his daughter's belief, like, what is his complete. Like he is a very fairly like innocent in all of this. But also the world is dying. And why is the world dying? Because of the generations that came before his children's generations. And so as Christopher Nolan evolves as a parent and thinking about what is the world I am leaving behind for my children. When you think about in Oppenheimer, in that sequence in Oppenheimer when Robert is being cheered on by the audience and he has this vision of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and he sees a young woman's face feeling off. That's Nolan's own daughter that he put in the movie. And that's him reckoning with what have we left behind for our children. So. So thinking about Odysseus and Penelope sailing off to the sunset, leaving Telemachus behind to rule Ithaca. But like we broke the world and now Telemachus is inheriting that throne. I'm not gonna be here. He's got to handle that, you know. And so Nolan is a sort of like, as I grow older and think about the legacy that I, that we, my generation, the world humanity has left behind for these children that I have raised, how does that change his own feeling of complicity, guilt, you know, all that sort. And like all of these characters are author inserts in many ways. And we could talk about that specifically for Odysseus. But so like how that Christopher Nolan, author insert changes as he grows older and his concerns grow more global.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think, yeah, I think like it's interesting to think about an Inception, the way the kids are present as these Faceless. Yeah, faceless mirages. And will they turn and when? And what does it mean if they do do? And you have the idea of building worlds and creating and forging, but also the losing your way in limbo and the capacity to destruct to the interstellar point, you know, the cost is so undeniable immediately when we start that film. The blight, the toll. What does it even mean for your kid to be able to, like, go to school? Right. The other thing that's there, though, in addition to, like, the. The collapse of the world around us and the lie, right, with Michael Caine's character and the quest, the trial, the mission, and then the desperation to get home, is the question of how much time passes and who remembers. And I thought. I mean, that's certainly present, like, in terms of just the lesson, but I'm loathe to bring up Tenet, but I think we also have to invoke it because that's like, you know, thinking about the idea of the future in who Broke the World? We, the future generation in interstellar. And Tenet, you can't process Nolan's version of the Odyssey without thinking about those things because the. And I was just like, really blown away by the end of the movie, like you said as well. I mean, I think the suitors, the bow, the axes, all of it, which you know is coming, if you're familiar with the text, to be able to maintain that level of suspense and execute at such a fever pitch that you're just riveted, even if you kind of know the beats, is amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Louve Goranson's score.

[Mallory Rubin]

Holy shit, dude. We almost need a new word. It's not even like score or composition. It was like a feral.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was like a cardiac event.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, yes, thank you. That is what I was searching for. Exactly. But then to build into, in the closing sequence, the. Oh, my God, the horse is the atom bomb that you mentioned. Odysseus reckoning with his complicity, his role. This idea that the thing that other people worship you for, deify you for the myth that will be told and passed along and adapted over time is the source of your great shame. And that you are aware and you couldn't go home because you're carrying that guilt. But then also the note of, like, they won't remember, you know, civilization is going to fall. What lesson is lost over time? Like, they won't remember the writing. And this is like. This is where you know, the thinking about how the myth tracks on with actual history.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know I didn't and the ages. I don't know that I. Maybe I studied this in school and forgot it, but I went home and I was like, was there a Dark Ages after? And there was. And we'll talk about that a bit more at the end. The people from the sea are real, like, things from history. So, like, that's incredibly fascinating. But I. I think that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who. Who's telling the story? Who will remember what. There is a moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

And do they remember the Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. There is a moment in Homer where Odysseus hears the story of the horse and he cries. There's a kernel or two that's there to inspire Nolan to be like, what if? Because there's also many other ways in which Odysseus is like, yeah, I'm that guy. I'm that man. That's what I did. But I feel like if you were to make Interstellar now, I feel like McConaughey's character would have been responsible for the time they lost on the ocean planet rather than. It wasn't his fault. It would have been something in his character flaw that delayed him for all of those years. Right. Versus, like, earlier in his filmography, I think he was still sort of like, interrogating, like, what's a hero? What's not a hero? And now when we get to Odysseus, it's like, you know, he shoots the bow at the cyclops. You know what I mean? And in the tech, it's a boast.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a taunt.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, it's a taunt. Taunting the cyclops on the way out and being like, it was me, Odysseus. This is where I live. This is my dad's name. So if you want to make a very specific curse and curse me and all my sailors, you could do that. Right? So Odysseus is, even without the Trojan horse, the absolute architect of his own misery inside of the Odyssey. And so to have that moment when Odysseus loosens the arrow at the cyclops. They were free, they were out, they were done. Yeah. And his men are like, why did you do that? You know, and that. And Nolan's like, how flawed of a man. Is my audience ready to look at, like, Robert Oppenheimer again? Not to step too much on our Oppenheimer pod, but Robin Oppenheimer, the womanizer, the liar, the guy who taunts Strauss in two different occasions, like, he's taunting a Cyclops and is the architect of his own downfall, you know? And it's just sort of like, I just Think it's really fascinating the way in which Nolan is sort of like able to lean more and more into the reality of these incredibly flawed people. And can we still sort of be with them on their journey and still be like rooting for them while also being repulsed by them at the same time, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think so. We'll circle back to this, but obviously there is a lot in the text about not only the unreliable narrator aspect of Odysseus that you noted, but, like, he's a liar, he deceives. Those are. The ability to operate as a tactician is like part of why Athena's like, you're my whole thing. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of morally repugnant behavior in the text that obviously Nolan is heightening. We have the. I love the shooting the bow in the eye example that you called out. There are so many moments in the movie where Odysseus is making such a clear in real time mistake. And you're like, why? But it's so. It's so much more interesting, right. To show us the full totality of a man. Your coup point is interesting because I think you're right. That would be a change. But I also think that the choice to go in the first place is a link. Right. Like, there's the hubris of thinking everything would go right, that there would be no mistake along the way, that you would be able to get back promise to Murph.

[Joanna Robinson]

But also, what other choice do I have?

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. And there's like that. That's again, the melding of like, the heroic aspect. And I'm excited to talk more about what the word hero even means in these contexts. Right. But there's the heroic aspect of going and doing and trying and leading. Being a person who the people of your community would look to. Right. Odysseus being a general who Agamemnon requires. Requires to ultimately prevail.

[Joanna Robinson]

But that's the thing is like, both Coop and Odysseus could say, I had to go, I had no other choice. He says that to Penelope.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she's like, we could just.

[Mallory Rubin]

And she's like, do we. We could just go. And then the tragedy, of course, if you work your whole way home fearing whether you deserve to make it, doubting whether you deserve to make it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And is that home even there anymore?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Dreading the truth you have to face when you're there and the version of yourself that the people who you hope miss you and waited for you will see. And then you have to Leave anyway. You have to go into exile anyway. So that's amazing. And then, yeah, you know, you started with Chris, but the Dunkirk, not just the trying to get home part, but I was thinking about Dunkirk. I mean, ocean stuff, certainly just the scene.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, watching these men flail in the water to try to scramble onto the boat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Still gotta say the achievement on that front in the Odyssey in Dunkirk. Top tier. Can't hear a fucking thing in the tenant water sequence. And I never will be able to. Maybe they'll re release that at some point.

[Joanna Robinson]

Were you looking for Harry Styles in the Trojan Horse when it was underwater? I am always, always.

[Mallory Rubin]

The stabbing through of the horse with the blade was just so the bullets punching through, but even, even the water filling it.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. Yes. This is not Dunkirk. But can I just say that, like, in terms of, like, cleverness. The sword stabs in and you wipe the blood off, like before the sword comes back out. Silently wipe the blood off the sword before it back out. Chills.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amazing community in Dunkirk. What does a community do? What can a community withstand? You know, that feels like a real parallel with Dunkirk. And then also, like, even in the. The height of some sort of monumental moment, like, what. What is lost either for the community or the individual, you know, that, that is. That is certainly there. So, yeah, all of it. Literally all of it. What will he do next? Jo?

[Joanna Robinson]

I know it's a great question, something that, like, our pal Jomi asked us before we started recording and something that Amanda said on the. On the big pic episode was like, like, is this the most Nolan movie? And you and I both, like, were immediately like, we don't think so. But I think, yes, you can see the DNA of all these other movies in that. But also you can see the DNA of all those movies and all the other movies as well. Like, as we've been tracking this last. And I think the response I would have is it can be the most Nolan movie, depending on what you think the most Nolan characteristic is, because there's a. There's a ton of options. And so, like, what do you weigh as the most crucial Nolan characteristic? You know what I mean? And if you talk to Rebecca, as we did, she's like, tenet is the most Nolan movie. If you talk to C.R. perhaps he's like, dunkirk is the most Nolan movie. You know, you talk to Van. Maybe it's interstellar.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, I think I still think it's Inception.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, you talk to Mallory Rubin, it's Inception. I don't know that I have the answer Maybe it's the prestige for me. And it's not just, like, following, but it's. Yeah, but it's not just favorite. It's in terms of, like, most. It's like, what is the theme that Nolan is interested in that I'm most enchanted by? And where is that at the most at the forefront? You know, Appel asked me who I thought had the best performance in the film after I saw it for the first time. And I told her I didn't really think it was that kind of like, I didn't walk out of this movie being like, wow. Like, when I walked out of Oppenheimer, I had my notes that I'm on record having my notes about Oppenheimer, but I was like, Cillian Murphy. That is an undeniable, like, God tier performance. I think Matt Damon is great in this movie and actually one of the best things that he's done in quite a long time. But I didn't walk out of this movie saying, wow, Matt Damon, you, like, blew my life away with this. I don't think maybe other than Samantha Morton, there's like, a single performer in this movie that I'm just, like, walking out. But I'm not mad about that because I've since had this conversation with a number of other people. Because this is myth. It's iconography. It's sort of like bigger than a human story. I think a lot of these characters don't behave in ways that humans behave. And sometimes that's a criticism that I have of Nolan, but it works with the story here. So I didn't walk out saying, like, oh, my God. What Anne Hathaway did with Penelope is goddamn Versus, like, Anne Hathaway. And Interstellar, I would say, is like, God tier. I think everyone was, like, good in this movie. I didn't walk away saying anyone was like, miscast. But I didn't walk away saying, oscar for this person, Oscar for that person. Oscar for that person. Which is fine. It doesn't matter. And if Matt Damon gets an. I will say this. Matt Damon gets an Oscar for this, I will not be mad. I do think it will be more of a, hey, should Matt Damon have an acting Oscar? Yeah, it's weird that he doesn't have an acting Oscar. Let's give him one. Than, like, his actual performance in this film.

[Mallory Rubin]

Best director, best picture.

[Joanna Robinson]

Though who's to say? It's a long year. I wouldn't be upset about it, but it's a long year and there's a lot of stuff still on the table to see. But, like, doomsday. In terms of this idea of, like, this is a myth. A face, a fleet, a trick, a war. What do you think about this? Like, what do you think of the performance front and does it matter at the end of the day whether or not there is, like, a performance in this movie that. That blew you away?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. This is an interesting question. I thought that the. I think. I agree. I think the performances are all really impressive and strong and everybody

[Joanna Robinson]

did the

[Mallory Rubin]

thing they needed to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think Tom Holland's a little weak, but I also think Telemachus is a weak character. So, like, by design, a weak character, but also just like kind of a. Yeah, his was.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the performance that. I'm curious if you had this experience improved the most for me across viewings.

[Joanna Robinson]

There are moments where he gets to cry. Yeah, he's quite good at that. Yes, He's a good crier. And I had a better grab grasp of Telemachus being like, so beta in the closing, you know, than I did the first time I went through. But, yeah, if I had to pick one slightly weak spot,

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought Daemon was great. The moments where it almost feels like we, the collective and the film, the ensemble, the wall has just vanished because I'm like, that's like.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's just Matt Damon.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's goodwill hunting. Like, sarcasm breaking through.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you like the Mapples was, like, present and accounted for in this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. But like, kind of in a way that worked for me, actually. You know, there's a charm there that is a necessary counterweight to some of the mistakes and decisions that we see.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think. Do you talk to Ants in the Cyclops scene? And also. I think we're past that. That was the one that was just like.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was really the last.

[Joanna Robinson]

There he is. It's Will Hunting.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a guy from Boston.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fine with it. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

My favorite performance, I think, by a comfortable margin was Pattinson. Okay. I thought he was, like, amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought he was just incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

I really, really loved him. And I thought that what he was presenting, not only in the portrayal, but through the character, was really necessary. I mean, we're going to talk about the Zeus's Law, the guest rights aspect,

[Joanna Robinson]

and obviously the suitors do not care for Zeus's law.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's. We really need him to be a piece of shit in that respect and all of them to be pieces of shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, I think he's just handed some really tough. When he's just like, the spears, the Spears. The shields. The shields. I was just like, so I love

[Mallory Rubin]

that because he's so. His cowardice in that moment is just so undeniable. And he has gone through this, you know, very intentional play acting theater of like, she has made her point. None of us can live up to the man. None of us are Odysseus. Right. And it's like then to get to watch the undeniable truth of that, which we have no reason to doubt at that point from either of them. But I just thought was so satisfying. And obviously the moment when Odysseus thrusts his blade up through in a very like Thronesian, you know, slow.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm gonna make you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Feel. Yeah. Give him back his shame. That was great. So I thought he was just wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is maybe it's just because I

[Joanna Robinson]

recently saw the drama and I'm just like, that's the Pattinson. I prefer more to this Pattinson, but he's good in the movie. But I think the thing they did with Antinous that I thought was the most interesting was the flashes to him on the hunt with Odysseus when he was younger. And the very sharp jawed young man that they cast to clearly play a young Robert Pattinson, young Antinous, and to watch him look worshipfully at Odysseus as a youth, I thought was a really beautiful moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And then to have the clarity of everything that could have been possible, but obviously also there's the choice in real time. But then that great man, I would have followed that great man. So I thought that was all really good and really satisfying. I think more broadly to your point about the kind of nature of the performances, like the quality of the performances and the nature of the speech and how it's conveyed to us. You're gonna talk in a few minutes a bit more about the variance across the different translations of the text and what is consistent and what moves time to time. But in I think the one that probably most people podcasting about the movie and maybe most people who have seen the movie revisited, is the Emily Wilson translation. And one of the early aspects of the whole thing's obviously great, but the introduction is talk about like a work of scholarship. Right. And what just being able to like learn from that and see the consideration that went into the translation, but also this question of kind of like what evolves and changes over time. The discussion of the language. The language contains a quote. The language quote. The language contains a strange mixture of words from different periods of time and from Greek dialects associated with different Regions, a handful of words. In Homer, words were incomprehensible to Greeks of the classical period in the 5th and 4th centuries BCE. The syntax is relatively simple, but the words and phrases in these combinations are unlike the way that anybody ever actually spoke. The style is, from a modern perspective, strange. It's full of repetitions, redundancies and formulaic expressions. These mark the poem's debt to a long tradition of storytelling and suggests that we are in a world that is at least partly continuous with a distant, half forgotten past. I think that in this translation, but then also in Nolan's film, there is simultaneously a channeling and centering of that. Listening to the performances feels like that, right? And also then a deliberate like. And where will we tweak and change that? So that this is maybe more something that a contemporary audience can more easily receive that I think is just really

[Joanna Robinson]

brilliant and something that Wilson talks about in her introduction and is part of why this translation of the Odyssey was such a smash. Smash a roo is she has made the language more, without sacrificing, I think, an inch of scholarship, she has made the language even more approachable for people reading. Reading the story.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's, you know, this version didn't exist when I studied it in school. It's not, you know, we read Fitzgerald version, I believe.

[Mallory Rubin]

I couldn't remember what we read in school. Maybe it was maybe a month.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe it was that Faggles or Fitzgerald, I think are the two other main, you know. But that language is much flowerier in a way that I really enjoy. But then I also really enjoy, you know, this version she did. There's like a recent translation of Beowulf that is like, again in like, much more plain spoken language, you know, so this, this sort of like, trend of, again, not sacrificing scholarship, but like, how can we translate in a way that, that people can understand? Yeah. Should we go to the deep dive?

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, campaigns slow down, insights get buried, and opportunities get missed. That's why Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. To learn more, check out Accenture.com Spotify Evening.

[Mallory Rubin]

Buyer's remorse.

[Joanna Robinson]

Buy a new car.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll be moving in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's get started. Sorry. I think there's been a mistake.

[Mallory Rubin]

I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah. Great price.

[Joanna Robinson]

I even have seven days to love

[Mallory Rubin]

it or return it. So there's no. No. No buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice.

[Joanna Robinson]

I guess I'll let myself out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply.

[Joanna Robinson]

See our 7 day return [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Whole Foods. It's hot out there, folks. Whether you're planning a family road trip, backyard barbecues, or a watch party, you'll find everything you need to beat the heat with the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find sales on Best of Summer Fruit, stock up on cooler friendly drinks, and discover no antibiotics ever meets for the grill. You know, something like a New York strip steak, plus made in house kebabs, skewers and sausages. Shop Whole Foods Market in store online. Get your first delivery free with prime terms apply. Okay. As Rebecca pointed out when she was on the Tenet podcast, the tagline for this movie is defy the Gods. And she talked about sort of what she anticipated that might mean. I'm calling this section really defying the Gods. And it has to do with the lack of gods in. In this story and sort of like what we think Nolan is getting at here. So, like, in his New Yorker review of the film, Richard Brody, the goat, really got hung up on this aspect of the film. If anyone's gonna be contrarian about the Odyssey, it's probably gonna be Richard Brody. Shout out my guy always. But to misquote Jurassic park. Now, eventually you do plan to have Greek gods in your Greek gods story, right? So, like, this is. Okay, so I've been sort of, like, trying to talk to people about this, about sort of like the level of gods in this version of the Odyssey. And some people are like, well, I mean, there's supernatural stuff. I was like, yeah, of course there is. There's Cyclops is here. There's. There are witches here. You know, there's like a giant whirlpool. Like, you know, who's. Who's a lady. You know, like, there's the supernatural is here. The opening crawl says, an age of apparent magic, though, which I think is really interesting language. Homer's Odyssey is absolutely teeming with godly interference. Of course, talk about Athena, but like Zeus and Hermes and Poseidon and all, like, Hermes is. Hermes is flitting hither and thither. Inside of the story, the gods show up they are characters inside of the story. And so Nolan decides we're not gonna do that. I'm gonna say Zendaya is playing Athena. Right. But, you know, and Nolan may say otherwise, but I do think there is, like, a definition of this film where you could say, is that actually Athena at all? And is that interesting? So, like, there's this runner in the film of Telemachus saying, you have wise eyes, Athena's eyes to a number of characters. Right. One of whom is Mentor, the man who's training him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which is one of the guises that Athena takes on in the. She disguises herself as Mentor. In this version, that is a human man who dies a human death. And Odysseus is like, he is a human. And when Mentor dies, he sees Odysseus face with this moment of just sort of like shock and recognition and sort of like glad home, the way that a lot of his vassals look at him when they realize who it is. You know what I mean? So, like, that is a human. That guise of Athena in the text is in this film a human. And Odysseus says to Telemachus, of course, don't look for gods and men. You'll just be disappointed. And so when it is revealed at the end of the film, the first time I saw it through, when it was revealed at the end of the film that the shape that Athena, as we understand her in the film has taken the whole time, is this slain Trojan priestess who, you know, is the face of innocence, loss at the Trojan War. And so. And as Odysseus is remembering and sort of like exorcising the demons of that moment, as he is sort of recollecting the honest telling of what happened there, then she vanishes. So there's an interpretation of this movie where every time we see Zendaya, that is Athena, who, much like Athena in the text, is guiding her favorite guy home, challenging him sometimes saying, don't you recognize Ithaca? You know, like, there are moments that are like, very Athena in the text, very Athena in the movie. Or, you know, and shout out Christopher Nolan for adding a dead girl to this movie where there isn't. I had to have it great. Or is this a ghost that's haunting Odysseus on his way home? And are there actually no gods in this movie? And is that an interesting story to tell of just sort of like, apparent there are go. It's either Poseidon's fault that they didn't get home and Poseidon is definitely controlling the winds, or that's what the men believe. But is there something else going on? What is your preferred interpretation and what do you think is interesting about that potential ambiguity?

[Mallory Rubin]

So, first of all, let me say I love thinking about the Greek gods. We love Greek myth. I managed to mention wishbone before Percy Jackson. But, you know, this is like another example of a modern text that acts like, what does it mean to have that presence in your life? Right. When I had the pleasure of going to Greece in last fall, and one of the things that I was like, you know what? This is really cheesy and real basic bitch tourist stuff, but I have to buy a copy of the Odyssey while I'm here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hell yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so I bought one in Santorini and got the little stamp from the bookstore. That was fun. And it's like, I think a real starter kit translation of it. It's actually written in prose instead of written as a poem, which is interesting. But I opened it and in it I found the postcard that I had gotten you in Athens and then forgotten to give you. And so I would just like to give it to you now. This is from Athens. This is from the trip to Greece. Felt like the right moment to give it to you. And it is, in fact a cat, and I think a very godly one.

[Joanna Robinson]

We love a cat. Can I just say that Rob Mahoney saw this movie yesterday. He texted me and he was like, like, we're. We're in a current, like, cat person, dog person battle in our friendship. And he was like, gotta say, great dog movie. We'll talk about that. He's like, I don't think a cat would have done that. I was like, my cat would have slit Antonius's throat. Those suitors would be absolute jerky if my cat had been. Anyway, shout out cats.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I'm. I'm. I'm obviously a cat enthusiast, but shout out Argos now and always. Also love a dog. Love a dog.

[Joanna Robinson]

Doesn't have to be either. Or Rob decided to make it either. No, no. Why not both.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's love all of the animals, including the cattle that they, you know, were warned not to. I bet that just kill and eat so good. And then they did. And that gets back to your question, because I think that there are many texts and many stories, including the oral tradition told, but then also written, right? And for us now, something we can hold in our hands and read version of the Odyssey, where, as you noted, the gods are present not only in the guises that they wear, but in the omens that they send in a way that feel really like, very early in one of the first three books in the Telemache, when Zeus sends the eagles, you're like, all right, well, pretty hard to not as a reader, interpret that, but also not to see how the suitors are interpreting that, and everybody in Ithaca is interpreting that. So I think that what Nolan chose to do here is, I think, appropriate for his version of the story and more interesting for a filmmaker who is very, very focused on the decisions people make. If I love stories that involve Zeus and Hermes, that's great. But if we have Zeus and Hermes in two out of every five scenes, it's just a radically, radically different story than the one we got. And I think a story like this where Odysseus and his men are in very different places about, like, the wrath of Poseidon in response to something as, like, literal as you, that Polyphemus is Poseidon's his dad. So this is gonna be a problem. Right? But also, just more broadly, even the initial, you know, you have the post Troy, the reckoning to come, but just the post Troy Huber. So maybe we'll see some of the world will go this way instead. And, like, what are the seas like? The wind that draws you in, the wind that sends you away. I think there are plenty of subtle things in the film where the gods are still present, even though they're not walking around. And that feels like the right note to hit because then it's about the characters perceiving and processing the omens and deciding whether to let that determine their fate. So it ends up becoming a story just as the original text is, but in a way here that feels very much in the minds and hands of the human beings about whether you accept your fate or you try to shape it and change it. That's just, I think, a more interesting movie in Christopher Nolan's hands, given what he is interested in assessing about human nature and civilization.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's your interpretation of Athena as she is represented here? Do you. So, again, I do think it's up to the viewer. Do you think that that's Athena or do you not?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so. I don't mind the alternate interpretation that he's haunted by the specter. I think he is haunted by the specter. I think the fact that she takes the shape of the slain priestess of the temple kind of makes that part of it undeniable. But that given the tie between Athena and Odysseus and the text, I think it's the chosen fav for his ability To. To lie his ass off. Lie, lie, deceive and outwit, outwit, outplay, outlast everyone. That should be one of the themes for a Survivor season. Is Athena and Odysseus just the Odyssey? I mean, kind of. They're all the Odyssey in a way, aren't they? They really are. So, you know, I think. And in general, I just really loved. That was an interesting. And there's a lot overall of like, oh, this person is actually in like 47 seconds of this movie stuff with

[Joanna Robinson]

the movie Real Doom Part one, Zendaya participation. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And, you know, I mean, Lupita has five scenes, barely any screen time, you know, dynamite as always. But I thought what Zendaya did in

[Joanna Robinson]

those scenes, she's fantastic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Was amazing. And not only the performance, but what, you know, what is written into the script for Athena to express to Odysseus and the. It felt to me like in miniature, encapsulating the choice to have the gods be less present, but to convey the thing they needed to convey, which is like, well, like, what don't you understand about the wind and, you know, the things around you, the elemental nature.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who doesn't understand thunder? The call in response, you know, when he's questioning. So, like, here's the next part of this, which is. Which you've already touched on a bit, but this idea of like, defy the gods, accept your fate, this sort of push and pull, right, that, like when Odysseus is talking to his men who are believers. And it seems like Odysseus comes out of perhaps before the war, but comes out of the war despite having Athena right by his side as, like maybe kind of not as much of a believer because when they leave Circe's island, he says, who gave Cersei her powers? Your gods. It's what he says to his men, right, when he's asking Athena about the inscrutable nature of the gods. How can we understand this, that or the other thing? And she says, who doesn't understand thunder? And other. Other times she says other things in a call and response that is like. Feels like a really beautiful, like, nod to the verse of just sort of like this idea of like, repeated phrases and stuff like that. When Eurylochus shout out. Hemesh Patel, who has a shit ton

[Mallory Rubin]

of screen time in this movie, really, really, really wonderful, as always in his

[Joanna Robinson]

final soggy moments, begs Odysseus to pray to Poseidon. Right? You can barely hear him, but that's what he's saying. Pray to Poseidon. All this sort of stuff like that. And Calypso says, you're a man who needs to control his fate. Give yourself to Poseidon, give up the fight, give up control and live. And then he, like, puts himself on that little raft and is like, okay, I give myself up to the gods. Right? What's your understanding of. So is our. Is. Is your understanding, then, that Odysseus walks out of the Trojan War? Like, it's. It's because he will not accept his fate. And what do you understand? The fate that he is denying is that he's the only one who makes it home, that his men won't survive. Like, when it's like, give yourself up to your fate, what is the fate that he is avoiding?

[Mallory Rubin]

So I think that on the one hand, I don't know that we have enough of his earlier life given to us to say with confidence what his relationship to the gods was previously. However, I think we get glimpses that maybe guide us toward a read that he was always a, like, skeptic. Maybe I'll decide what makes the most sense here. The lots. You know, there's a king of Ithaca, there is a king of some place in this time who does not allow the changing of the lots because the gods have deemed it so. Right? And we not only see what we see, but we hear later the discussions of, like, Odysseus, while the judgment will be rendered so satisfyingly later, was also a character who understood a father's shame. Right? And so he is thinking about all of these very human concerns. However, while I think that is there as maybe a kernel, something that could be heightened by the experience, I do think it was heightened by the experience and that we are presented with a character across the trials and the journey, the effort to return home and then the return itself, who not only has seen things, has witnessed things. And the way that the Trojan Horse sequence is given to us in many parts through many narrators and many eyes and many different stages of clarity, was so gobsmacking in its execution that I'm just like, man, Noah is really the goat. There's maybe no part of the movie that people are more familiar with. There's a story that people are more familiar with that. And I was like, this feels new. That's nuts. How does it feel new? It's just crazy. Not just a character who has witnessed this atrocity and what people and men are capable of, right? And then we'll build toward, in the future of his timeline, Cersei saying, like, oh, they became what they Always were pigs. Right? Like the beast inside of man.

[Joanna Robinson]

Look on your men, look on your men. Know your men.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's all of that, but there's also his own shame and guilt and culpability. And so there's, I think a little. There's an interesting read of like the question of, well, wait, if I'm your favorite, but this is what I'm capable of, then what are you about? You know, that's interesting to think about.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think also thinking about Odysseus as someone grappling, just like as a soldier grappling with PTSD and what like post war trauma does to people's faith in whatever deity it might be be, you know, and, and can you walk out of seeing the horrors of war believing in any kind of God or gods? Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. There's a shattering, a shaking of. Of something. Right. Of a foundation of, of civilization. Civilization, but also of that, that faith and the, the structures and ways that people live their lives then around the idea of faith. I think it's also like, because we get, you know, we haven't. Perhaps not. Women are very rarely welcome on this podcast. Talked much about Penelope, yet that's the, you know, we do have the tripod of this family. We have Odysseus, we have Telemachus, and we have Penelope, and there are versions of this for all of them. But Telemachus is presented as, and this is more about, like, generations and innocence. But he, as you noted, is the one who's like, wise eyes, Athena's eyes, like looking for signs of the gods. The fact that his belief has not been broken and shattered despite, you know, the suitors and the intervention of the suitors. And what is happening to Ithaca.

[Joanna Robinson]

Privilege of not having gone to war.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly. There are plenty of bad things around him, but nothing like what his father has confronted that has stripped him of his ability to believe.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think an interesting thing that you really watch Emily Wilson grapple with in her translation is she's like, Telemachus is supposed to be like 20. Yeah. Why is he sometimes behaving like he's 12? You know, she's just sort of like, what is happening here? All right, let's talk about Penelope a little bit as we talk about a couple concepts, very Greek concepts inside of this story. So I'm calling this a crash course in Greek. First one is polytropos. This is the very first adjective that Homer uses to define Odysseus in the opening lines. And it's proven very difficult for modern translators to properly pin down. It literally means the man of many turns, Polytropos, many turns. And so some people interpret it as like, multidimensional, others adaptable. But some interpret it to mean that Odysseus was a liar, a fabulous, a teller of tales. He's all those things. And his cunning, as you mentioned, his wily deceptions are like the core part of his character. This idea of, like, Odysseus, the man who thought of the Trojan horse, the great lie, like, this is who he is. Here's a couple translations to. To convey this. This idea, right? Emily Wilson says opens her translation with, tell me about a complicated man, Muse. Tell me how he wandered and was lost when he wrecked the holy town of Troy. Fagel says, sing to me of the man, muse, the man of twists and turns. Not complicated, but twists and turns driven time and again off course, once again had plundered the hallow heights of Troy. And Fitzgerald says, sing and me, muse, and through me tell the story of that man skilled in all ways of contending, the wanderer harried for years on the unend after he plundered the stronghold on the proud height of Troy. What I do love about these three different complicated twists and turns, skilled in a way, in all ways of contending, those three sort of different interpretations of polytropist inside all of this, we also get wrecked, plundered, plundered. Like, there is no ambiguity that when he sets out on his journey in the first sentence of this story, he is leaving a great act of violence that he has done.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wrecked, plundered, not conquered. Not one, you know, not, you know, Hail, hail the conquering hero. Not won a victory, not like, whatever. It's like they destroyed Troy. And that is something that I think is interesting from the very beginning, no matter how you interpret Homer, Odysseus is a man with blood on his hands as soon as he starts this story. And so I do think it's interesting to think about, like, what version of this polytropist idea, what version of this man is Nolan most interested in? Sinon. We hear Sinon say you lied to everyone. Did you have to lie to me?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought Elliot Page was really good in this role. Girl. Cersei calls him a liar. Right. Eurylochus, you knew and you didn't tell us about skill and cryptus, Right? Right. And the Trojan horse is, of course, the lie to end all lies. And then of course, there's Odysseus lying to himself. We'll talk about that more when we get to the Sirens.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nolan has described him as, quote, an amazing strategist and a very wily person. That's what. That's how he describes Odysseus. But I love that he chooses to open the story, as you mentioned, and we'll talk about it again and again as we talk about sort of these, like, who's telling the story at any given point. But we open the story not with Penelope and Telemachus, not with Odysseus on Calypso's island, not this, that and the other. We open with Odysseus first victim, Sinan, and his first lie, the horse. Like, these crimes of Odysseus are right here at the very beginning of the story. But then it's complicated by this idea of, like, we watch Odysseus try to save his men again and again. We watch in the Cyclops sequence. Yeah, he gets out of the cave and he goes back into the cave to try to rescue his men. So we're not. This isn't a villain, but what is a villain and what is a hero? And this is when you mentioned you want to talk about this idea of, of the definition of a hero as it pertains to this era of storytelling. Madeline Miller, who wrote the incredible book Song of Achilles and Circe, both of which I just think are absolute fucking masterpieces, gave this great interview to the New York Times book podcast. Talking about the idea of a hero in ancient stories is not always and often not a virtuous person. Hero means warrior, someone who's real good at fighting, but not a noble person of, like, fine moral character. So what do you want to explore about this idea of, like, hero and this shading of Odysseus as liar, as storyteller, as hero, as villain inside of this version of the story?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think some of this is a little, for me, feels hard to separate from what we'll hit next. But I assume while I don't tend to spend much time reading the comments online, as you know, I was very struck by, on the different translation fronts and on the New York Times front, Ayo Scott, there was an Instagram reel. I'm sure it was in other forms as well. I saw it on Instagram. A very interesting examination of the language across translations. And I was like, oh, cool, this is interesting. Out of curiosity, took a look at the comments. You know, who knows how the algorithm works and what gets moved to the top and stuff. But there were a lot of people who were like, it complicated. It's not right. That's not, you know, Big mad at the Wilson translation.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a lot of bros who do

[Mallory Rubin]

not like the Wilson translation, which I. There's a lot of like, bad faith stuff behind that. But then there's also a little bit of a. There are two other things. One, what maybe version of the story have you carried with you?

[Joanna Robinson]

By the way? Christopher Nolan loves the Wilson.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I mean, that's the translation that, like, leads to this movie. There's no question. And that's what I was going to say next is like, I think that the. Frankly, I was kind of one. Even though, like, you know, people yelling on social media is not an indicator of the world. Like, I think there I was like, I wonder if people are going to be like, really mad about some of the equivalents in the movie too, actually. So I've been surprised at the. Not surprised because the film is so magnificent that the response has been so euphoric, but like, like wondering if there would be a little current of like, this is not like the reading of the text that I would choose to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, what I love about you is that you don't go on Twitter. And that is very important.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is that happening on Twitter right now?

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, Twitter about this movie has, like, lost their entire lives.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't look at Twitter. It's.

[Joanna Robinson]

And also Christopher Nolan's like, I don't pay attention to that. And I, you know, I haven't. Well, no, I have increasingly been like, this is. This opinion is not interesting or worthwhile.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I thought all of the, like, you know, in the. In the run up to the movie, all the like, you know, casting and this is just obvious, like, nonsense, of course.

[Joanna Robinson]

But. But I'm saying is like those people or bots or whatever they may be are like, in the comments. Like, I. I just tweeted something yesterday about like, how Troy is a bad movie because it is.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's not a good film.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a bad movie. And I like, walked away for four hours and I came back and they were like the. The MAGA people were big mad about it because they have decided that like, Troy is the like, like, good white person, like storytelling here and then this. Because we've got like a woman of color as Helen or like a trans man is of course a problem.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anyway, Troy is quite a. Quite a poor film. Cut garbage. Quite a poor film. So I don't mean any of the, like, bad faith nonsense that people spew, but more like the question of the complicated portrait of Odysseus. How would people in a modern context receive that But I'm sort of curious to see how people feel about it. It seems like it's sitting quite well initially. I think that the. On the hero front, and what do we mean, and the way that we in a modern context talk about heroism and virtue and morality and think of these things as deeply entwined. It does make me think of, like, Percy in that passage from the end of the first book that I was like, where is this line at the

[Joanna Robinson]

end of the first season about like,

[Mallory Rubin]

you know, a hero's fate is not never happy. Which is also kind of in this context. And one of the Wilson passages in the intro, you know, sums it up well, being a hero. Heros, which in Archaic Greek suggests a warrior and does not imply virtue. This is connected to. The other point you're making is different from being a pirate to the plunder point in that it is a much more positive term which a man can proudly apply to himself. Nobody in Homer admits to being a pirate. This is right on the heels of outlining all of like. Like, what is different about this actually, Right? Different acts of.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, the diseases men plunder, immediately they leave Troy. They've got a lot of. In. In the text. They've got a lot of treasure, they've got a lot of slaves on board, they got a lot of women that they kidnapped and all that sort of stuff like that. And then immediately they start to plunder the various towns on their.

[Mallory Rubin]

On their way with a quickness, instantaneously. Some of it in the story is a question of intention and need. Right. Not that whatever the read or answer to that is, like, absolves the act itself. But, okay, we have run out. We have run out of provisions. We must seek food. Still, a question of how do you go about seeking that food, certainly. Right. So some of that is embedded into the text for us to think about both as we watch it and as we read it. But I think the most rewarding version of that, in terms of the portrait of Odysseus to the prompt comes at the end, actually. Like, obviously it's present in all of the trials. I think the Polyphemus cyclops scene that you noted is a great example and, like, the kind of pettiness of what he does.

[Joanna Robinson]

You won, you got out. Not all of your men did.

[Mallory Rubin]

Keep going. Yeah, you know, the literal stick in the eye and then the arrow in the eye, all of it. And, you know, I think we end up feeling like, pity for Polyphemus, which is, like, pretty amazing thing to watch.

[Joanna Robinson]

But at the End.

[Mallory Rubin]

And this is why I said I thought this was, for me, a little hard to separate from what we hit next. Maybe this can transition us into it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's a reading of what Odysseus does at the end. And this is, of course, accounted for in the story. To be clear, by now, I go into exile.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is a violation of guessed right of Zeus's law. Again, this is embedded clearly into the text. This is present for us. The characters are talking about it and discussing and thinking of it. But this story kind of asks us to consider, well, what is the difference between the suitors who overstay their welcome and insist and demand on something that they have no right to and that Penelope does not want? There's no denying that what they are doing and what they represent is foul and wrong. They're kicking Argos, which, like, horrific to watch.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're kicking Leguizamo.

[Mallory Rubin]

Awful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Don't poke. Leguizamo.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, and of course, the, you know, the initial beggar we see at the beginning in the text, to your point, that's one of the Athena in the guise of a beggar moments. But it primes us in the film, certainly. And in the text for Odysseus, of course, returning home in the guise of a beggar. How will he be received? How will Penelope receive him? The washing of the feet. Right. My husband wanted us to receive guests. This question of the openness and kindness to other people. So Penelope, Telemachus, Odysseus, Ithaca, their home is presented to us as a place of welcome and acceptance that the suitors have warped and leveraged for their gain at great cost. Right. What version of that is Odysseus? And are Odysseus men inflicting on the places they visit and they travel upon.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then what does he do that violates some sort of sacred thing, even though we want him to do it and are glad that he does.

[Joanna Robinson]

So Zinnia is the name is the Greek word for this idea of, like, Zeus's law in. In Nolan's version, guest rights in Game of Thrones, if you prefer. Xenos means host. It. It means a lot of things, but it means host, stranger, friend, foreigner. We get xenophobic, xenophilic from that. Right. Basically, I agreed to feed and house you. You agree to do me no harm during your stay. And Wilson talks about this in her intro. And Jeff Wright in the Odyssey podcast spent an episode talking about it. But this idea of, in this time when you're traveling around the world, you can't stay at a hotel. You have to depend on the kindness of strangers. And so there is a social contract inside of this which is sort of like, I welcome you, I feed you and house you. You do me no harm while you're here. Wilson also talks about how it is like a sort of geopolitical way of spreading the Greek. It wasn't the Greek Empire at that point, but like, you know, this culture around the world, this is at the core of almost every single one of the advent. You call them trials, but adventures, trials, however you prefer to call it that Odysseus men undertake. In the public book, Polyphemus violates Zenia by like literally eating these men. He does not feed them, he eats. He feeds up on them. Yes, there's a lot of eating, feeding and consuming inside of this story. Like, you know, the suitors in there and their voracious appetite at Penelope's table, or Polypheme is eating, or Cersei and. And her meal, etc. Etc. Incredible sequence. But like, what is so interesting to your point about this story is that, you know, know, in a black and white version of these stories, whoever VI violates Zenia, this core idea of the social contract is a monster. But Odysseus and his men constantly violate Zenia, right? When they show up and, and, and they plunder and they take. You know, the. The version in this story is when his men are sort of at their first stop and there is that. That the huts are burning behind them, right? And there are these men being like.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're like, oh, we're cowering in terror.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're. We're not the people from. We're Greeks.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. You know, but they're taking because they can. And this whole thing starts, you know, Paris, our guy, the prince, Paris, Orlando Bloom in the Troy movie, if you prefer, violates Zinnia in the very first place by going into Menelaus house and taking his wife.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess what? You're not supposed to do that. You show up, someone feeds you and houses you. You're not supposed to take his wife. But that's what Paris does, right? So it's a huge zinnia violation that starts the Trojan War.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then we get the bookend and

[Joanna Robinson]

then, you know, the book. Well, the Trojan horse. Is that what I mean? The book end of the war being this violation of Xenia, which is. Which is what Odysseus is like. We broke the world. Like, this is the hugest violation is under the guise of the Gods.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

A gift for Athena to be brought into your community, into your home, and then destroy.

[Mallory Rubin]

And for the trick, to rely upon the understanding, the acknowledgment, the recognition, the inevitability that it would be received as such, that it would be brought in.

[Joanna Robinson]

To burn the walls of Troy was to burn the world entire. In doing this transaction, transgression of all we hold dear as people and safety in the world just destroyed the way that we as people move through the world.

[Mallory Rubin]

Harrowing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess what? It's great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Guess what?

[Joanna Robinson]

This movie rules. Anything else you want to say about Zinnia? Guest writes Zeus's Law while we're here?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think we covered it. I think we covered it again. Very Thronesian, as you said.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, it's Calypso, a very hospitable host.

[Mallory Rubin]

Seemed great there. We have a very amusing text thread going with one of our colleagues who shall remain nameless.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are we not gonna Nameless? It's like that's the whole thinking skill. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who do we work with?

[Joanna Robinson]

His take would have been, why go home? Actually, that set up with Calypso seemed great. Not enough shade for my taste. I would not stay on that version of Calypso. Violet in the book, she lives in a lush, leafy paradise.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would stay there, perhaps forever. But not on the boiling shore with no shade. Okay, who lives, who dies? Who tells your story? I apologize for the Hamilton reference there. As is the case in the text, this is a story that's chopped up and told out of order. What could be be more Nolan than that? Couldn't dream of a more Nolan arrangement. We have several narrators here and layers of the story to uncover. So as you mentioned, we get the story of the Trojan horse told in three acts. Essentially, we get the horse as experienced by Sinon, inside the horse as told by Menelaus, and then the horse on fire as recalled by Odysseus. Yeah, Masterpiece.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was really, really, really excellent.

[Joanna Robinson]

And for me, this is excellent, no matter how you slice it. But for me, and you mentioned this, this connection to like memento inside of this. How the telling of the tale makes us complicit in the story. Right. So when it's Menelaus turn to tell the story of how they ninja sneak their way out of the belly of the horse. Really impressed with the. With the rope on the door apparatus, the silent descent from the belly of the horse.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is this the takeaway and the thing we should be focusing on? No. But is the craftsmanship excellent?

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, it is, but Also, I like that it looks like maybe it could be made from ships a little.

[Mallory Rubin]

It does. Oh, like the belly?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, no. I mean, I. I know that the horse, the head part, I'm not sure. Yeah, but the belly is definitely like, you know, we took. We took a ship. Yeah. No question. Fantastic. Why no one in Troy saw them building the ship down there on the beach. I don't know, know, building the horse, but that's fine. Okay. When it's Menelaus's turn and we get the exit from the horse, and the desperate bid to open the gates. Ludwig Gorenson score is giving us a cardiac event. We are, like, we're invested in Odysseus and we are desperate for the Greeks to get that damn gate open. And, like, I just remember sitting there being like, oh, my God, like, the gears are turning forever and nothing is opening. And, like, the men are coming and it's so intense and you're like, oh, my God, will they get. You know, they do, but, like, will they get the gate open in time? And, oh, my God, they have to get the gate open in time and then they do, and then in walks fucking Darth Vader, Agamemnon, and, you know, we'll find out what happens after that. But just that vision. Well, just that vision of Agamemnon is in itself like, oh, fuck.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But still we are rooting for Odysseus and his men to. To win in that moment. The guile, you know, the. You know, the cleverness of the trick. And also, we'll talk about this a little bit more later on, but, like, the fact that all of the Trojans are masked and so there are no Until Zendaya. And then, like, a few other, you know, people we see milling about in the absolute calamity of the war itself, the battle itself. There are no human figures on the Trojan side of this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Rose Byrne's not here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, but, like, you know, Paris isn't here. Priam isn't here. Hecuba isn't here. Like, none of these characters are here, so it's just sort of like a faceless enemy. And then, you know, our guy Jon Bernthal, we care about him. Our guy Matt Damon, we care about him. And then we get to the third act and we're like, oh, my God, that gate that we were rooting for to open, this is the absolute decimation that is. And inside of that Menelaus storytelling sequence, you know, the film itself constantly is asking you to interrogate who's telling this story. Right. Menelaus talks about gossip of Odysseus. Some say. Some say. Some say he's rich, some say he's poor, some say this, some say that. Right. So who's telling the story? Is it Travis Scott? Is it somebody else? Actually, I thought the Travis Scott stuff works. Worked really well.

[Mallory Rubin]

I wore my Travis Scott's today. One of my pairs of Travis Scott AJ1 Lowe's to. I quite agree. Thought that was super effective.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Helen's incredulity, Righteous victory. You know what I mean? Like, there's just a const. Like, we hear Menelaus's version, which he's telling for Odysseus's son so that he can think of his father as a hero or whatever.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just Frank Castle and Peter Parker and then.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then he's just cutting the story off there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And let's not worry about the rape and desecration of Troy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. Unsurprisingly, I thought the Benthal was great.

[Joanna Robinson]

The man stuff was great.

[Mallory Rubin]

As I texted you and Van last week, because Van said he rewatched Troy. So I was like, maybe I'll rewatch Troy. I haven't seen that in a minute. As I already told you, Adam and I somehow could not find a version other than the Director's cut, which is 3 hours and 16 minutes. We recommend it.

[Joanna Robinson]

We got an email from a listener this morning who saw my tweet about how the movie was trash. And he's like, but have you watched the Director's Cut? It's very good. I'm not going to. Well, I have quite recently. I'll see you my time.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I texted you a man. I was like, I really forgot that, like, Menelaus is just gone in a jiffy in that version of it. It is bizarre. The Menelaus Telemachus stretch in the text is such a fascinating insight into, like, all of the themes that you just outlined and these core Greek ideas. Zeus's law. Guessed right. What is a visitor in your home entitled to? What do they receive? The conversation that they have, the exchange they have about gifts. You know, it's just. It's really interesting. But also the tales that Menelaus shares of his own trials and his own journeys and struggles to get back for, like, a different version of a different stretch of time, different places. But this idea that. That unlocks because we have this, like, centrality of Odysseus as this mortal man at the center of this astonishing thing. And then you have that Menelaus account of, like, how many other people have some version of this, you know, that's really interesting. He's crying a lot in the poem. And I really liked that. Here we got more of like, a. And that's great. He's gotta kind of be pulled out of it. Right? I really liked this. Felt right here that he is very, like, a bombastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Boastful. And then we cut to, like you said, sweet Tommy's cheeks. Tears just rolling down. It's very powerful.

[Joanna Robinson]

One more accolade for Tom Holland, I will say, is that he tells the story of how they shot that scene. And because of, you know, I don't know, I think the IMAX cameras, like, overheat after 5 minutes or something like that. And so they had to, like, film his crying scenes first. Just. They had to film it out of order. So he didn't, like, get to cry responding to anything. He just had. They're just like, go. And he crushed it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amazing stuff. I. Yeah. The Helen. The turn of Helen's cheek so that

[Joanna Robinson]

we can see the cracked face.

[Mallory Rubin]

The cracked, scarred face.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's got this, like, crack on her shoulder, too. And it's so interesting because, like, there are ways in which the scarring is, you know, like, her eyes is sort of, like, drooped. There are ways in which the scarring looks human. But there are also ways in which the scarring looks like a cracked statue.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I thought that the. I agree. I thought that the following of this. Almost like I'm cheerleading for your dad, the daddy you didn't even know moment was followed by the questioning of the righteous nature of this thing. Very effective and powerful. I liked that. We then got the additional beat of the bird hunt the next day. Not only because we have the hunting parallel then with Odysseus and thinking of those flashes to the earlier time, but the discussion of what is required and what is acceptable. You know, the guidance. Yeah, exactly. And the, like, horror of. Killed his Orestes. Killed his own mom. Mom. Which. Not every text.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Has that detail. So, like, this deliberately puts that in there to every text.

[Joanna Robinson]

Has Clytemnestra being the one who kills.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. So to have that there as a.

[Joanna Robinson]

A warped version of the Penelope Telemachus.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where could this go? In a different version of this tale. Very effective. And the encouragement and the nudging and the pushing to retake Ithaca and to do the thing that's necessary and then to have Odysseus shield the thing that he has finally been able to give his son is to this wrecked man who has seen his Faith in the gods destroyed. Who is reckoning in real time with the fact that he has. The thing that he has wrought into the world is the death of civilization itself. The breaking of Odysseus law. That he's like, I have one thing left to give still, and it's sparing you of having to do that thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, just like amazingly satisfying the fight. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Keep your hands clean because then all the relatives of the suitors will come after you. In Homer's text, the relatives do come after, and Telemachus and Odysseus kill all of them and they kill all the women in the house who slept with the suitors and they kill a lot of people.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not ideal.

[Joanna Robinson]

This. This story has like 20 endings. You're like, is it. Is it done yet? Is it over? Okay. Just rapid fire. Some other sort of like, unreliable narrative stuff. And Tenos's repeated lie of wanting to go to Troy would have gone with him. A lie repeated, a story retold. How many times do you repeat the lie until it becomes true? You know, Sinon's saying in the flashback when Odysseus is like, why did it have to. Why did it have to be you here with the horse? And Sinon says, you know, tell my father how well, I did quote, feel free to add some stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that got a chuckle.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, it was really funny, but like, the delivery was really funny. But like, the thin line between. Later Cinnamon will be like, you're a liar. That same character says, feel free to add some stuff. So the thin line between a liar and an embellisher, like, what's, you know, when is it right, when is it wrong?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Penelope and Eumaeus and their memories of Odysseus. What is, you know, what is accurate about what they're recalling about a beloved husband, a beloved master, and then Odysseus and Calypso having each told themselves stories to forget, to repress, to keep the peace and their eight year idol. You liked the lotus leaf. You liked it so much. You ate it so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Delish.

[Mallory Rubin]

So funny.

[Joanna Robinson]

Were you thinking about Cobb and Mal in limbo with Odysseus and Calypso on the island?

[Mallory Rubin]

No question.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you thinking about Leonard Shelby?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm often thinking about Leonard Shelby. As you know. I also think that the. And on the cop and Mal inception front, you mentioned the totem tie earlier, but the pin that also ends up unlocking something for us about truths and lies. Right. This idea that, like, you know, Telemachus is like, don't lie. She's a way of knowing. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know what it is. And it's merely this, an accessory that Odysseus could have lost at any moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

And also, like, I'm sure some else,

[Joanna Robinson]

like someone else probably has a pin that, like they wear of Athena that

[Mallory Rubin]

someone could have said, well, this person had an.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anyway, one of a. One of a kind, wild stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it worked. Right. And so this idea that something in a land of lies and deceptions and myth making and the tradition of telling stories and telling tales and the muse, right, Saying muse. What. How do you know what's true? What can anchor you in that? Truth. Truth. Fascinating. Really interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I love the metatextual aspect of that. In that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

What was the Trojan War? Yeah, we're not completely clear. You know, there's been like, archeological research into this, but it's just sort of like our idea of the Trojan War comes mostly from these stories, you know, stories that were passed down via the oral tradition. And then it's just sort of like, was there ever a horror horse?

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. Argos, the Boy who Waited. Little Doctor who reference for you. Thank you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you for that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just want to clear the decks for you again. I did hear you crying during this, and I wanted to, like, reach across y who was sitting between us. And like, I really almost reached across Yassi to hold your hand, but Adam was right there, so presumably your husband hold your hand.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, we were doing. Doing a lot of this to each other. You know, I'll. I won't talk about it for long because I can't do it without weeping, but it was just beautiful. Actually, I was sitting next to Bill the first time I saw the movie. He was a big dog guy and he turned to me and was like, murph would wait for me. Which if I was crying and very sad, but did make me chuckle and also was very sweet.

[Joanna Robinson]

You and Bill, who saw where Sean and I were sitting and were like, no, we're not gonna sit with you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Bye.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is simply not where you can

[Mallory Rubin]

sit in an imax. In an imax, you're like, I'm not sitting here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Bill's like, I'm going with Mallory. As Mallory goes, so goes my nation, said Bill Simmons. Okay,

[Mallory Rubin]

The Argos stuff is perfect. Gut wrenching, beautiful, moving, touching, sad. I loved it. This was, I think, the most like, other than the. The thematic richness and resonance of the very end, the most emotional. And this isn't just. I'm a Pet lover, like on brand stuff. For me, I thought it was the, the. The pairing of the moment between Odysseus and Argos with Telemachus watching it. I was like, this is so good. Holy shit. Not a fan of the tossing of the other puppies over the cliff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not great.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a no for me.

[Joanna Robinson]

You may as you have some notes.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was tough. Yeah, we've got from. We've got some notes for the swineherd. But you know, the. It tells us so much, right. Argos is like, he's a good boy. He's sweet, he's cute, he's wonderful. But it's like a skeleton key for unlocking whether we should root for a character or not. Because how do the treaters behave? How do they treat him? The suitors? They kick him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Screenwriting 101. Save the cat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. Save the cat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Odysseus saves the puppy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't kick the dog. Don't kick the dog. And you know, to see him out there with Odysseus on the hunt, you see the time that they did share, however brief it was. And then this idea that he has waited and waited and waited and lived so long to die in this final moment of the return. What that tells us about the agony of waiting, but also the need to wait and the willingness to wait and the ability to wait for someone you love was so beautiful. But then there's also the like.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a touch.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like a. He knows. It's the clarity. Right. And that's why Telemachus witnessing this is like undeniably. This is my father. And they have already been through this.

[Joanna Robinson]

He doesn't need an Athena pin.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. And they've already been through this circumstance, this thing together at the temple. But it's not until he sees Argos respond to Odysseus that he knows for sure. There's no question in a land of questions. Who is inhabiting another form? Who is walking around in a guise, who is trying to deceive or achieve something? It's not like Argos knew that was his dad. It was just so sad and so good.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's beautiful.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really loved it. Cute dog.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very cute, Very sad. Fuck those. Fuck those guys. When. When Corey Hawkins, who plays one of the suitors, who was like particularly cruel to the dog when he gets an arrow in the neck, like our theater was just like erupted. All right, you mentioned disguises. Anyone can wear the mask. Fascinating mask work from the Batman Bane guy in this movie. Right? So like for most of the Film, as I mentioned, the Trojans are like, heavily masked. We don't see their faces. It's only when Odysseus is recalling his sin that we see some soldiers without the mask on. And then we see other innocents. And then, of course, we see Zendaya's beautiful face. Agamemnon. This is a fascinating one to me. Okay. Obviously, this armor is an incredible piece of work on a lot of the posters that sort of like. Like golden vertebrae off the. On the back of this incredible armor design. Again, real Vader energy from. From our guy Agamemnon. But even when he arrives home and is greeted bathed, anointed, we're mostly on the back of good old Benny Safdie's the curls head. It's only when he's killed by Clytemnestra. And even then she's got her hand over, like, part of his face was really just like the top of his face. And I had a bunch of people ask me when we got out of the movie, they're like, who played Agamemnon? And I'm like, well, I just saw Oppenheimer, so I'm here to tell you those are Benny A. Safdie's eyebrows. I've seen them recently. What's your read on this? On this cloaking of Agamemnon?

[Mallory Rubin]

It was almost. I'm a Benny fan. It was almost jarring to hear him. I think he's quite a compelling performer. His performance in the Curse is one of the most batshit things I've ever seen. Quite excited to talk about him in Oppenheimer, when he talks, when he finally. Because I was like, oh, they have decided to not have Agamemnon speak, which I think would have been actually quite an interesting decision. It is discombobulating in the best possible way. When he speaks in the Hades sequence, which was so good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess what? This movie rules.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fucking amazing. The river of Fire. And you're like, oh, this is in the light. Incredible. Drinking the blood. Very creepy, all of it. And the harrowing. You know, this isn't for their ears. Who is entitled to a prophecy and what do they do with that information? You know, and it reminds me, and I'll get back to Agamemnon in a second, but to go back to what you were saying earlier with, you know, the sun God and the cattle, and there's like a version of it in terms of how we process Odysseus's sense of self and morality where like, like, he could say he's giving. He's like, well, you wouldn't have. You wouldn't have made that choice if I had told you. And so I had to let you make the choice so that we could get through the path that, like, would allow us to get through. There's a version of it where he can almost, like, justify it to himself as I gave you free will.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. So it's just. There's always the gods.

[Mallory Rubin]

Give us the exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Illusion of free will.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's always that layer there, the Agamemnon. There's the cautionary tale aspect. Right. The return home in disguise so that you do not suffer the same fate that I suffer. There's the character design I thought was incredible. So when we hear him talk on the helmet front, the golden vertebrae that you noted. This is a real. To me, like, now, I did not have this response in real time, but a lot of people did. This is a real, like, let's all wait and see the movie reminder.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think people not like that poster. No. Oh, I missed it.

[Mallory Rubin]

There was so much like, what is this design? Oh, well.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, well.

[Mallory Rubin]

I saw all the complaints about that's not how the armor should look.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, Sorry, I didn't see it directly off of that design, but, like, oh, yeah, I saw all the costume complaints, the. The armor design complaints and blah, blah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I'm like, sick.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I'm like, this is a myth. What are we doing? Yeah, there's that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. Just the kind of heightened quality of it, but also the fact that it made him, to your Vader comp point, distinct among his army. Very appropriate for that figure. For that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think Menelaus is like, where's my sick armor, bro?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think Menelaus was exactly where he needed to be, which was the belly of the horse. Yeah, exactly. Talking about the piss and the shit, as he so memorably did recounting it at the feast. So when he talks, when Benny Safdie speaks, when hecamemnon speaks, and I'm like,

[Joanna Robinson]

that's just a dude.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just a man in a can, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's so.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's so effective.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think that would have been even more so if we had seen him, like, with the helmet off in that sequence? I'm not trying to question Nolan. You're a perfect person in all of these things. I like.

[Mallory Rubin]

I like to have the kind of grandeur and the enormity of the thing that you cloak yourself in to tell yourself and other people you're powerful and you understand how it would work when the gates open and he is towering two feet over everyone around him.

[Joanna Robinson]

And they're like hovering, like they're floating

[Mallory Rubin]

forward in a very. A visual that ends up kind of mirroring the shades chasing Odysseus and his men off the shores of Hades.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that moment because, I don't know, maybe some people did a close watch of the trailer and they figured that out, but when I watched the trailer, I thought that was just like Odysseus leading his men on a charge. And when it's him running from his dead men.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

So good. All right. The piggy men in their disguises, of course. Back in your disguises.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was. Dude, how. Okay, can I just ask you a kind of dumb question? Literally, how did they do this makeup?

[Joanna Robinson]

But how. Makeup.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I. And so it's like an intro.

[Joanna Robinson]

But how.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's an amazing way. I think it's a. There are a lot of. A lot of different aspects of the film where you could point to and say, but how? And then there's an answer. And that's. I think, one of the things about this that's so impressive. And Nolan is very proud of this, as he should be. The practical aspect of his filmmaking. And, like.

[Joanna Robinson]

And there's a ton of digital effects and he'll talk about that too as well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And you know, the way that they managed to get the IMAX cameras on all of the places and things they need to be the year that the

[Joanna Robinson]

actors had to look at, talk to each other.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's like a three or four minute little featurette on. I think it might. Is it actually, like on the IMAX YouTube channel or something? It might have been.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or is it the IC channel?

[Joanna Robinson]

I saw Anne Hathaway and Tom Holland talk about it in interviews.

[Mallory Rubin]

They have a little featurette about how they did the mirror thing. I watched that and I was like, how does this. How is this movie coherent? You couple that with knowing that the, you know, the film reel only runs for the, like, three to five minutes, like you said. And. And it's like, I don't know. I don't know how they achieve this. And then the practical effects and the number of places where makeup or building a set and a structure and a physical location or a costume achieves a sense of texture and tactile quality and reality in a story that opens with apparent magic. There are a ton of movies where you have plenty of excuses to use cgi. The Odyssey is certainly one of them. And the commitment to having the makeup pulled on their faces to give us the effect of transforming human into pig was fucking amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I can't wait to watch. All the behind the scenes on this ton can be achieved with practical effects and makeup. I'm sure it was assisted with digital. Like, I want to give credit to the digital artists who I'm sure helped clean stuff up. One of the. You know, we'll come back again to the witch. Of course we will. But. But one of the things that I was, like, so fascinated by in that sequence was the, like, whatever sea, like eel or whatever it is they were supposed to be eating. That's this, like, white, sort of translucent thing that looked like a. That was, like, hard and looked like a tusk that they were, like, gobbling down. But, like, it was sort of, like, rigid and looked like a tusk before they became pigs. Thought that was incredible. Helen's cracked face that we already mentioned was this the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium? Shout out, Christopher Marlow. And then Odysseus, who shows up and claims Sinon's name. And we should say Sinan is not a character that shows up in Homer's story, shows up in the Aeneid and a bunch of other versions. And in fact, like, Sinon, the lyre is sort of like how he is repeated and remembered in Shakespeare and Dante and all these other things. And so this depiction of Sinon is. Is different, but this is a character that Nolan plucked from other tellings of the tale to put in here. But like Odysseus taking on Sinon's name, Athena, as the priestess Telemachus, and mentors various assumed identities and costume changes along their journeys. And then you mentioned this, the Polyphemous, sort of like, we feel for him. I love this evolution. Okay. To go back to the practical effect thing, you know, I've. I. I saw this in the trailer. I was like, that's Bill Irwin, which is so excited, because Bill Irwin, who we talked about when we did Interstellar, is this, like, incredible physical performer. If you've seen Legion or just a number of his live theater work in clowning and stuff like that, he's just this incredible physical performer. Has always been. And so to hire Bill Irwin to play the cyclops and the incredible makeup job they did on the face with the, like, sideways eyes and the sideways

[Mallory Rubin]

nose, like, so good.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, the evolution, again, it's sort of like the. The story of the horse in three parts to, like, meet Polyphemus as, like, just this wordless Monster who gobble. You know, we see just like chunks of guy come out of his mouth.

[Mallory Rubin]

Super gross.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then we like, hear him talking. He speaks, Right. And then later on the ship, that beast was the son of Poseidon. So peeling back the eventual humanizing. So similar to the Trojan soldiers who show up as these masked anonymous figures. Like when they first show up in that very first scene, I was like, surely they're gonna take those masks off and those are gonna be actors we know. Right? Like, you know, surely. Like, I just watched Oppenheimer. I knew every. Like, where's Jack Quaid? I knew every single actor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who's the hugh man of this sequence?

[Joanna Robinson]

Dr. Human. So, yeah. So doing that with the Cyclops as well. This sort of like, you know, telling the story of this creature's humanity now, does he go right into eating diseases? Men. He sure does. Let me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let me just throw this out there also. What's he gonna do, not eat them?

[Joanna Robinson]

Would you reason with any.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're invaders in his home. They're eating his cheese. The cheese. They're eating his cheese.

[Joanna Robinson]

The cheese looks delicious. I'm sure it was quite fresh and salty.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought that the. On the save the cat, don't kick the dog front.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And have we seen him eat a couple of the men at this point? Yeah. Have they had to do the math on how many are going to try to escape at once? Because they know some of them are going to get eaten. Do they know he needs one before bed? Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

A couple. Two bites of. Of men.

[Mallory Rubin]

The sheep know to come in, they know to go out. He's tending them with care his herd. And this after he has been cruelly jabbed in the eye by a burning stick. Burning piece of wood before he's shot in the eye with an arrow. Sweet little. Like the nuzzling, you know. And again the cleverness of Odysseus. They put the wheat, the grain.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think that was nuzzling?

[Mallory Rubin]

He's just feeling them. He's counting.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's checking to make sure that it's not. Dude.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's also. But it's also very sweet.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a very sweet sunfire moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very sweet. He's like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like he's checking that it's human trying to sneak out of the cave.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like real sheep detective stuff right there, you know, it's like reading to

[Joanna Robinson]

them at the end of the night. Oh, my God. Hugh Jackman would kill in this movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I finally saw that movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, so good. Delightful. Oh, my God.

[Mallory Rubin]

I knew I would Love it. But add when I watched it. It's streaming now.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Geez, did I cry? Yeah. What a great movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amazing. Good script.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, the Telemachy, as you mentioned, the first four books of the Odyssey. It's about Telemachus, our guy. So Nolan's like, bet. Got it. I'll get Spider Man. What this serves to do, narratively, among other things, is put this ticking clock on Odysseus's journey home, right? Every misstep, every setback, every. I'll just fuck Cersei for a year on this island. Everything that Odysseus does, there's peril at home. The suitors are at home. There's only so many nights Penelope can unweave that tapestry before someone, Mia Goth, narks on her. To Robert Pattinson. You know what I mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, again, who among us. I mean, honestly, who among us?

[Joanna Robinson]

It just puts urgency on him, which is, like, very interstellar, right? It's just sort of like there's a ticking clock. You gotta get home. You already talked about the modern language and how it works for you. I gotta say, I'm a man Mom, Dad's coming back.

[Mallory Rubin]

Back.

[Joanna Robinson]

Didn't love it. Not my favorite part of the movie. I'm a man Mom, Dad's coming back. Not my fave. The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The. The. The other side of it. This is just more about the idea than the. The language and the screenplay. But the withering, like, you think you're ready to be king.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can take over for your father.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're a child.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Every time. Penelope, Penelope thrived, eviscerated Telemachus. It was pretty great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really. Really.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's talk about Annie Hathaway. Penelope, what'd you think? Ithaca has no king. Ithaca needs no king.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought I.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, I mean, I loved her. Like, the fairly, the slightly tantrum y way she says, I want Odysseus as she storms out of. Out of the room at one point.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought she was great. I mean, I love Anne Hathaway. I think she's just a wonderful. A wonderful actor. And I thought she was great in this role. I. You know, we've done the whole Rewatch, minus Oppenheimer, and.

[Joanna Robinson]

We did watch Oppenheimer.

[Mallory Rubin]

We did. Yeah. We. The pods, you know, we spent a good amount of our time chronicling the.

[Joanna Robinson]

In Oppenheimer. Specifically, I would say a gin bottle could play the role of Emily Blunt's character.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow. Could a gin bottle ride on a horse that. Well, I guess if properly strapped into

[Joanna Robinson]

a style, it would just sort of, like, jostle along, sort of slosh. Tough. The way that Kitty Oppenheimer was definitely sloshing on horseback.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tough, tough. You know, Penelope is a rich character and has so many interesting decisions and choices to make and the presentation of the suit. On the one hand, Penelope is in this terrible, terrible, unenviable circumstance of not knowing. Not knowing. Believing, needing and wanting to believe. Choosing to believe, to hope. You know, the idea that Odysseus could return Faith. And he said he would return, you know. Did we get the full sex scene?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, but I really loved that scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought it was so wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

By the way, I mean, Anne Hathaway. We've never had a single Anne Hathaway complaint inside of a Nolan movie. Nolan's best actress, I would say.

[Mallory Rubin]

No question.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, she's been fantastic three times now, right? Wonderful Catwoman. Great. Interstellar and was wonderful here. You know, to see the genuine connection and affection between them in that sequence is really important because you understand why she is. There's the practical aspect for both of them, but then there's also the real. Like, this is the person that I love.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love how that scene starts where she's just, like, lying on his back in this way. And they're already, like, rumpled. They've already been, like, rolling around, about

[Mallory Rubin]

to get more rumples. Yeah, yeah. Really great. So I loved having that to carry us. And, you know, so there's the, like, okay, get these people out of my house. I believe he's gonna come back. I need to believe he's gonna come back. I don't wanna marry any of these guys. And there's the horror.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not even you, Rob Pattinson.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not even you.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I gotta say, here's what I'll say about Robert Pattinson in this movie. Yeah. Really handsome guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not in this movie. And it is nothing to, you know, they didn't, like, make him look disgusting, but it's just by virtue of his character and sort of like, the way that Rob is sort of, like, physically embodying him.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just sort of like, yeah, you're sort of supposed to be repulsed. You know, there's like, enough of the charm when you see him with, like, the Mia Goth character to understand it can be smitten.

[Joanna Robinson]

But there's something about, like, Robert Patton's mouth has always looked like it has too many teeth in. It really worked in his vampire era. And I like that about it. It looks great on the Batman cowl. Like, all this sort of stuff like that. But there Was just like, a way. It's like the way he's leering and eating and all this sort of stuff like that. It's just, like, repulsive.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also by design. Real dipshit haircut, you know? Yeah, real dipshit haircut.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some hair notes for rub.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, you know, we're supposed to feel the threat of this incursion and this violation and this ticking clock. Undeniably. That's balanced with the fact that. That Penelope, in a way that is kind of shocking, has a level of control, and there's a level of the absence of control, the need to spin the literal yarn and the story yarn of the deception, of unwinding the shroud. But there's a part of you, when you're reading it and when you're viewing it that's like, the fact that we, even for this long, get to fend off the moment of choice feels like a relief. Which is, like, sick and wrong to say, but I think true, and probably certainly true for a lot of the women who are consuming the story. And so for you to feel all aspects of that, like, the fact that Penelope is unable to do the thing that she wants, which is just to continue waiting. Then there's the, like, you know, on the unreality front, there's, I think, the how long are you gonna be able to get away with the deception of the shroud is one of them. For a while. Certainly. This is true in all versions of the adaptation. Do you not know that? That's. Your husband's voice is, like, always one of them.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so there's the interpretation of when does she clock it and what does she do with that information.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. I will say I loved that hood design on a, like, really good hood design of, like, slightly. Slightly plausibly covers his face. Plus, he. He's so much older, you know, so much grayer than when last year.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's really, for me, the voice, like, so in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Behind the screen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. In the Return. This is with all of the versions of the song.

[Joanna Robinson]

You love the Return. You want to talk about it?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't. I just watched it. I just really recently watched it. So it's very fresh in my mind. And also, I do love Ralph Fiennes. And I was like. I was. Juliette Binoche looks like the ageless goddess of all time. Just incredible. She's doing a lot of. In that scene come into the light. They're trying a little bit more actively to, like, cover for the fact that it is totally implausible that even with two decades Passing, you wouldn't recognize your. Your husband. But it's all worth it because we get the. The scar, the leg scar, and the fact that there is like, something undeniable. It's another version of, you know, Argos. And the touch, it's like, like, so when Penelope says, the moment has come, I'll make my choice. There will be a challenge. There. He is the one who can actually do it. And it's like, very. I. You know, I like to think that she knows that. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hmm. I'll. I'll be interested to rewatch it and think about sort of like when. And I was. I don't think I. I have an opinion on when did she know and what did she know? You know what I mean? Because, yeah, there was. There was a moment when, like, she's like, so hopeful and then the guy turns away and so is it like, is it. That's not him? I thought it was maybe him, but it's not him. I want it to be him. Or is it like, he's not the man that I married? Or like, what is it? Yeah, I will say this. I forget which person said this on the way out of the theater. I think it was after the second viewing. So maybe it was like Katie Walsh or something like that. But they were like, oh, they gave Penelope a Barbie feminism speech. And I was like, I can't disagree with that. Like, they liked the movie, but they were like, it was a little bit Barbie feminism speech. And I was like, yeah, I don't disagree.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would we prefer that to all the characters are either called the blonde or

[Joanna Robinson]

dead or a gin bottle? Yes, I think we would. Is this Nolan's first horror movie? Okay, so like, we've watched all of the Nolan films. I feel like this is the closest we got to the horror. I mean, Oppenheimer is horrific, but is it a horror movie? But when you watch the chunks of Ithacan men fall from Polyphemus mouth and then the whole circe sequence, which is the body horror and then the katabasis baby. It's an underworld journey. The underworld sequence, the like, like dabbing of the blood and all of that. I. I think it's so funny. My. Not funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

My.

[Joanna Robinson]

My really good friend is taking her young son who like, loves Greek mythology and. And has read the like, graphic novel of. Of Odysseus and is really excited and was like, correcting on her on like, Skill and Cryptus and like all this other stuff like that. But she was like, she's like, is Charlie gonna be scared yeah. And I was like, maybe the Cersei stuff. Stuff might scare him. I was like, the Polyphemus stuff is, like, a little. It is scary, but, like, the body, the extended body, it goes on for a while.

[Mallory Rubin]

Again, I think the Cersei stuff is the most unsettling by far, and I think it's fantastic. Yeah, it's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love this depiction of Cersei. I think Samantha Morton is amazing in this performance.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really?

[Joanna Robinson]

Really. Her like. Like Catwoman esque, sort of like, oh, don't hurt me, don't hurt me. Sort of like, moment when. When Eurylicus shows up and stuff like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

We get along better this way. Iconic. Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

With her sister as a bird. Really, really good. This version of. So Circe in the text is a hot, as canonically hot as fuck enchantress who, again, Odysseus has to have sex with and then stay for a year and have sex with her for a year. He's got to. What is he gonna do? There's nothing. There's nothing else to do.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are you gonna not fuck the hot witch?

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, come on. What's House the Dragon time? Anyway, this Cersei's much more in line, kind of with Madeline Miller's depiction of her. Sort. Sort of. But, like, closer to. In terms of, like, Cersei is a woman who has been assaulted and traumatized. And, like, when these men show up, she is, like, doing some preemptive.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Transfiguration. Because.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. She's like, when he. When Odysseus asked, did they harm you? They would have.

[Joanna Robinson]

They would have. Because men have, you know, what is their nature inherently? Look at them. Know your own men. Back in your disguises. And also the singing, like, how she's singing when she's, like, transforming them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, so good. And then the underworld. So I just want to read this section from the Emily Wilson translation because it's just like Christopher Nolan's like, typing it into screenplay. Right. Quote, I took the sheep and slit their throats. Above the pit, black blood flowed out. The spirits came up out of Erebus and gathered around teenagers, girls and boys, the old who suffered for many years, and fresh young brides whom labor destroyed in youth. Would you say it's a battlefield for women? I don't know. Something to think about. And many men cut down 40 in battle by bronze spears. Still dressed in armor stained with their blood from every side. They crowded around the pit with ears. Cries. I just thought this sequence was incredible. And again, I thought Elliot Page was really good throughout. I love the choice to, like sort of have the blood kind of like burble from Sinan's mouth as he's talking. Sort of like spitting the blood. Theresi's also incredibly spooky and. And wonderful. And I think thought this was fantastic.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. This was all really great. It's hard. I think we would need distance to maybe power rank the sequences in terms of how much we love them. They're all so good. It's such a crowded field in the very rich and full three hours we got. But the Hades stretch and the Cersei stretch really do stand out. I quite like the Polyphemus stretch as well. It was all good. The Cersei stretch. Just talking about that made me think of another thing I loved about that sequence. Cause we have the horror. We have the assessment of nature. What is lurking within. It's a very Lord of the Flies kind of thing. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

You love to think about Piggy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Always.

[Joanna Robinson]

Always.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're passing a lion. The lion. The tiger. Right. So. And Odysseus is on the hunt.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

They have left him behind. Is it. You should stay. Is this a mutiny? That's up to you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who we who are still alive.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amazing story.

[Joanna Robinson]

Eurylochus says we who are still alive.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll make sure we have something to eat. No matter what goes on the hunt. Now this is an effective way to tell us what is happening and to tell Odysseus what he is about to walk into.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because Hermes isn't here to be like, hey.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's a special thing to chew so you don't get transformed.

[Mallory Rubin]

The arrow hits and when he walks up, it's a man. Okay, great. That's all very effective. What else happens in that sequence?

[Joanna Robinson]

The twanging of the bow.

[Mallory Rubin]

The twanging of the bow. Which we have been primed for. And there has been a challenge to and a questioning of. And it's like. You know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because it's honorable.

[Mallory Rubin]

Honorable. And so you have these little countermeasures. But then the question to that of like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's a hunt. Right? All of that is just so rich and so good. I think the fact that this version of the story is so aware of the questions that we will have of the conundrums and quagmires we will carry as audience members is like really expertly calibrated. The Hades stretch similarly is like to confront the loss, the specific lie and deception with Sinan. But more broadly, this field of the dead. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And the ones he Left behind and

[Mallory Rubin]

didn't bury and that pledge, and then to see at the end that he will honor that pledge. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know what I love about this? And again, we'll talk a bit about Odysseus and exile and stuff like that, and whether it's canonical or not, it kind of is. But what I love that Christopher Nolan wisely did was make it Penelope's idea in the first place. So it's not that Odysseus shows up and is like, okay, babe, we gotta go. You've waited all this time, but now it's time to go. She's like, oh, my idea. Nolan's like, don't worry, it was her idea. The road trip was her idea. Yeah, but Elenor. Yeah, I love all this. And to talk again about the absence of the gods to remove Hermes from the Cersei incident gives Odysseus, then again, on his wits alone, the opportunity to get himself out of a situation. It's not magic licorice that Hermes has given him that makes him immune to the drink. It's just sort of like him figuring out in this tense, tete a tete with this witch how he can survive and clocks the bird and all these other things. And so, like, his cunning. I think that's just, like, a much richer version of the story than seeing their rings.

[Mallory Rubin]

They wouldn't have left without them. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Another. Another totem. Okay. Nolan's first musical. I mean, here we are.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

When you talk about ranking sequences. Yeah. To me, there's only. To me, there's only two options, and it's either Odysseus recalling what actually happened to Troy and the Trojan horse burning, or what happens here. And it's not just because it's a musical, but, like, the sirens. Yeah. We see the decision to dampen the audio as Eurylochus puts the wax in his ear. Great. The decision to, like, not have us fully experience the siren song is so. And that's just, like, one of those moments where it's like, it could never match up to what our imagination of what the siren song would be.

[Mallory Rubin]

It reminded me of Bix and Andor.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, we don't hear.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. The horror.

[Mallory Rubin]

We. And the screaming. We see what it does to Bix.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great comp. Really good. Tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very.

[Joanna Robinson]

The score, though. The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The.

[Joanna Robinson]

The. The Goranson score here. The. The sort of harmonic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Another Oscar coming from for Ludwig.

[Joanna Robinson]

How. I mean. Yes, I would.

[Mallory Rubin]

Kind of amazing how many Oscars he's about to have.

[Joanna Robinson]

Were it me, I would. But were it me, we'll see what Hans digs up for Dune 3.

[Mallory Rubin]

True. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But the choral Ascension, you hear it again when Odysseus first sees Penelope, and you hear it again when he's recounting what happened at Troy. And so. But this is the. This is the text that caused me to bring a notebook to our second view of the Odyssey. And Yasi was sitting on one side, and my friend Kara Warner was sitting on the other side. They were like. You took notes the entire time. And also, they look demented because I'm not used to taking notes in the dark.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I was impressed because I could see over Yossi, but I was like, how? Yeah, I could not do that.

[Joanna Robinson]

You write big and you use a lot of lines to delineate your thoughts.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you know shorthand?

[Joanna Robinson]

No. And then I went home and typed up the notes. Did you learn it? And were there five that I could not read? Yes, because I was just like, I have no idea what I was thinking in this moment. Oh, no. But this is what I wrote down because this. This absolutely rocked me. This is what he recounts the siren song as being. All the things you wanted to be, all the things you wish you never wished for. Then there's a section that I didn't fully transcribe. This delicious, delicious itch you go to scratch. And then this is the part told. What you most want is what you most can't have. And what you most can't have is what you already had and lost. Told me I didn't want to go home. What you most can't have is what you already had and lost. I, like, almost started crying in this. This is, like, where I almost started crying. Because, like, that is to your point earlier, this great point you made earlier about the universality of this story. When you read Po, the best poetry that you read uses very specific language to pluck the bowstring of a universal truth, something that we all feel and articulate it in lyrical language that you're just sort of like, wow, I never would have been able to articulate this. But this thought of what you most can't have is what you already had and lost. Lost is like something I could then start to enumerate all the things that I often think about that I already had and lost. That is, you know, unrecoverable. And how that is like, one of the most painful type of yearning that you can have. And. And then to. To top that with. Told me I didn't want to go home is just like, I just thought this Like, I did not know Christopher Nolan had this in him. I was talking to Rob Mahoney about this last night because we were both like, I didn't know Christopher Nolan could write like this, like. Like this. And I was like, do you think he was particularly needled by that anecdote that he keeps telling about his. Have you seen this? Where he told his son that he put his Oscars away while he was writing the Odyssey because he didn't want to be like, whatever. And his son was like, you. You didn't win an Oscar for screenplay. Incredible stuff. So do you think it was like, well, I'm gonna. Now what you most can't have is what you already had. And lost told me to go home.

[Mallory Rubin]

Phenomenal, structurally, the language.

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought this was like an absolute lethal bit of writing from Christopher Nolan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. This hit me hard as well. I think that it's a good encapsulation of a lot of the pursuits of his adaptation stylistically, but also in terms of, like, thematic intent and resonance. You know, you have the distinction in circumstance.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Everyone else will put wax in their ears, but Odysseus is special, so he's going to try to do something different. There's like a little bit of the. The brash quality of Tie Me the Mast because then I get to hear it and no one has heard the song, right? Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So there's like, there's version of the story where he needs to have his ears out so he can give his men instructions. Even though how do they hear him when they have wax in their ears? I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, the one week ration test was like, they were sealed. They were sealed. But yeah. So, like, I think here this shows us something purposeful, Right. About a character who even after the fall is still. And a lot of moments that we've gotten post Troy, of the hubris and the brash qualities and the. I will do this thing. I will test the limit of. Of human endurance and human capacity. And what will I find on the other end? Will I find the limit? Will I find a reckoning? Will I find an emotional truth?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will I find a universal truth? I thought this captured this so effectively. I had a similar reaction to you. Just like, kind of what this unlocks for each person viewing it, about the nature of longing and regret and, like, appreciation, you know, appreciation in real time time for what you have. And because I think the story in this version, the story in general, this version of it, you know, gives us such a nuanced and layered view of the idea of home and what you think you deserve. And when you know what you are able to receive and ready to receive and willing to receive. And when it's, you know, no one watching the movie is like the king of Ithaca and going to be the subject of.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I am.

[Mallory Rubin]

Homer has been looking for a third text, so shows up.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Joanna ad doesn't roll triple Joanna. Let's workshop that. We're gonna work on it.

[Mallory Rubin]

The Robinson.

[Joanna Robinson]

You want to say the. The Jodecy, but that sounds like Jodecy, so that's not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe something with Robinson.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll think about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll get back to people.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, send us some ideas. Another Emily Wilson quote here. The poem promotes but also questions its own fantasies and ideals, such as the idea that time and change can be undone and the notion that there is such a thing as home where people and relationships can stay forever the same.

[Joanna Robinson]

The poem that was in relation to the ending, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Or.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, when it's time, when is he home? And that's reflected in this movie when Penelope's like, are you home? And he's like, not yet.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, what is actually waiting for you when you find it in any of these respects? And so even just the choice for Nolan to keep the sirens and the aquatic life in the distance and focus on Odysseus's screams and cries and wails, that's. I also love that that is what he's interested in.

[Joanna Robinson]

The fact there's like hot naked babes and also sea lions. I felt like a real, like, knock to the mermaid myth of like, it was just manatees. Like, was it just actual sea lions? And did you hope that it was hot naked babes singing to you? Where were you on the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is Varys a merman theory for all those years? You were pro.

[Joanna Robinson]

Super pro. I want to show you a painting. Sorry, this is not great podcasting. I have this art book that my sister gave me years ago called from the Deep.

[Mallory Rubin]

Morgan.

[Joanna Robinson]

Morgan called from the Deep. And it's all of these. There's like a bunch of depictions of Circe. It's all these like beautiful pre Raphaelite paintings of. Of water based stories. So there's a lot of nymphs, a lot of like, whatever, great. But there's a. There's a lot of Odysseus and the Sirens. And this one by Draper is my favorite, mostly because of like Odysseus's face, his eyes, you know, these like hot naked ladies clad in kelp are sort of climbing aboard the ship and he is just.

[Mallory Rubin]

But not clad in much kelp.

[Joanna Robinson]

And much kelp folks straining to get to them. I've always loved that.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

One of my faves. All right, speaking of which. A bizarrely unhorny odyssey. Okay, so after breaking the seal on the explicit sexual content with Oppenheimer, which we will eventually talk about, Nolan is back in the. In the chaste lane. Yeah. Which is a fascinating choice given the fact that the Trojan War was started because, among other things, Paris could not keep it in his pants. That's right, an act of lust. Also, Agamemnon and his trading route wishes. But you know, in the text, Odysseus fucks at least two women on his way home to faithful Penelope Cersei for a year. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Calypso for several years.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nearly a decade.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nausicaa, if you're inclined to read between the lines. Yeah, possibly the Trojan queen Hecuba in a far more disturbing fashion. I would not call this that consensual. Here we have some chaste hand holding between Odysseus and Calypso to sort of

[Mallory Rubin]

like feeding some lotus leaves.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just their fingers tangling as they walk along the surf. And that's about it. Some sexy naked sirens in the distance. Some side boob for Man Hathaway. Yeah, I suppose in a disease who fucks his way home would undermine Nolan's aim to tell what he has described as a, quote, middle aged love story. Yes, but what is your thought about this un. Unsensual version of the Odyssey?

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting question. Three quick thoughts.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Mallory Rubin]

One, I do think that the Penelope and Odysseus on the mattress so clearly in love and in lust with each other was pretty sexy.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

Two, to your point a moment ago about not exactly consensual. Hard to introduce a lot of sex into the Odyssey and not have a lot of rape.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct. And you know what? Don't want. I don't want it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Drastic tonal shift coming here for point number three.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, my God. Lash yourself to the mast. The winds are changing.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can't convince me that you liked it so much you ate it so willingly is not the horniest thing that's

[Joanna Robinson]

ever been in a Nolan movie. Sorry, sorry. Florence Pugh riding a fully clothed man in a. In an interrogation scene. Okay, great. To the monsters were the monsters. I love you. You're a very special person. To the monsters were the monsters. This is the conclusion. Okay, so here's the deal. The Odyssey doesn't have a really great clean ending. Again, it ends like five different times. Real return of the King energy here. Is there meta commentary in there about, like, when is, when are you finally home? When is it finally done? We fight. We fight the suitors, we fight the suitors family, you know, like blah, blah, on and on it goes. In Homer's version, there isn't really exile for Odysseus, though there is some indication of like, like ongoing wanderlust. There are some other versions of this story where Odysseus goes into exile. So this is what Nolan has decided to do and he wraps this idea up in this, like, history lesson from Christopher Nolan. Yeah, right. About the mysterious Mediterranean Dark Ages that roughly followed the Trojan War. Again, I had some great time reading some intellectual articles.

[Mallory Rubin]

I find it fun as I don't usually do that. Yeah. As I age to like, like, either learn or maybe remember new things. I once knew.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe I knew this, but I didn't remember that I knew this. So at the end of the story, after Odysseus, cops are breaking the world with the atomic bomb, AKA the Trojan horse. He talks about the collapse of civilization and written language briefly disappearing. The guy is an entire prophet.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I just loved this. I thought this was fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's a quote from a scholarly text. Something went terribly wrong. Calamity swept through the Mediterranean and most of the leading civilization, Mycenaean, the Minoans, the Hittite empire and Anatolia, toppled, leaving entire cities abandoned and destroyed. The circumstances surrounding the collapse are perplexing. So it's like this great mystery. What happened in this dark age that stretched between. So like the Trojan War happened. Hundreds of years passed and then we get Homer's works. So like, this was not recent. Like he wasn't like, trojan War happened yesterday. And here. Thus I have.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wasn't filing on deadline.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure wasn't. Okay, great. The circumstances surrounding collapse are perplexing. But several problems probably put too much stress on these civilizations. Greece was plunged, plunged into the Dark ages as connections among cities broke down and written records virtually disappeared. So Odysseus gets to be a prophet. He's like, like, we're going to have a dark age. Civilization will rise again. And she's like, why sing, master? And he's like, because the written record will go away. Kind of a weird thing for Odysseus to say, but that is historically what happened, Right? The people from the sea, which is this runner where it's like, oh my God, you're the people from the sea. Those were real, quote, oddly, accounts of hostile sea peoples and Egyptian documents Revealed reveal wars with a traveling group whose true identity remains a mystery. Wherever they were from, clashes against the sea peoples probably delivered a critical blow to civilization that were reeling from other issues. Climate change is like a big thing that they said perhaps was responsible for the Dark Ages. But this idea that, like, Christopher Nolan is like, okay, what happened after the Trojan War? This is mysterious Mediterranean dark Age. Nobody knows what happened or why civilization collapsed. And he's like, what if it's this great sin, this great sin of the Trojan horse? What if Odysseus broke the world? Batman and the Joker and also sea people.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, this question of the mistaken identity. Or like, are they actually the sea people? But also then the larger. Like, well, what do you inspire others to do? Just. It's. Yeah. I mean, the Dark Knight, very present. Is connective tissue and text to that idea. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Civilization does rebound, though. Don't worry. And Homer, we're back. Probably a bunch of guys credited as Homer, right? The Iliad and the Odyssey. Exile, not death. Made me think of our guy, Dr. Jonathan Crane.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. Yeah. Always.

[Joanna Robinson]

Death by exile, exile by that. You know, all those.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man, really?

[Joanna Robinson]

You can't go home again energy pretty thick.

[Mallory Rubin]

It did. I don't know. What about sliding on, like, what happened on your belly?

[Joanna Robinson]

What happens if you put a flare on it? Not great. I smell true. You can't go home again. Save the shire. But not for me. We know this song very well. Anything you want to else you want to say about the ending or about the Odyssey that we haven't gotten to?

[Mallory Rubin]

Boy, what a fun discussion. I had a great time. I think the last quote I'll read, I think just like take us out sums up a lot of what you just said at the end. But also, why make an Odyssey movie at all? Why make an Odyssey movie at all?

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you have to say about this story that's been told so many times?

[Mallory Rubin]

And why do we keep retelling stories? And why is it worth thinking about that, given what you just cited? What we hear from Odysseus at the end about the fall and about what will be lost and what will be rebuilt. So this is also from Wilson. In Greek mythology, memory is said to be the mother of muses, because poetry, music, and storytelling are all imagined as modes by which people remember the times before they were born. So that's why Christopher Nolan makes movies. Right? That's why we watch them. And the fact that he is making movies, original stories that will become a version of that for other people in the future. And also reaction. Interpreting texts and stories that people have been sharing and passing down and tweaking and translating through a different lens. The lens of their language, their re, Their region, but also their temporal moment and perspective is just an incredible thing to think about. And I just really admire his interest in engaging with that. You know, I think it is like something that could go so, so, so wrong and be a version of what we see befall a lot of the characters in the story, which is like a hubristic pursuit of something that you should not have attempted. The fact that that is not what happens here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Blessed by the gods, by Athena herself, perhaps.

[Mallory Rubin]

What a treat to be us on the receiving end of this. I can't wait to see what movie he makes next. I don't know what it will be. Maybe it'd be super small.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know what I think is really fun is we did this whole podcast and I wrote all these notes, and we did not dedicate a section to, like, the massive fight scene that happens in this movie. But guess what? It happens. It's sick.

[Mallory Rubin]

That whole stretch is just amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also say the sort of, like, ritualistic way that he bends the bow to get to string it. Incredible. Some real, like, Robin Hood stuff going on there. Really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And again, Goranson's score during that fight scene is another cardiac event. Absolutely incredible. And, yeah, the plucking of the bow being, like, part of the score. Genius.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, yeah. Let's say you can give three Oscars.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

To this movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

We reserve the right to change our mind. Because my hope is that Dune 3 is, like, undeniable. You know, I would like to see

[Joanna Robinson]

Dune crown for the achievement of those three movies. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is my. Even after seeing this, that is my hope that we sit down for Dune Part 3, Dune of Messiah, and we're like, it's time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Return of the King.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do the Return of the king. 11 Oscars. Here we go. Accounting for that possibility and hope in

[Joanna Robinson]

our heart right now.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is the best picture winner, Best director. Let me say this. I haven't seen nearly as many movies as you, so I don't know if

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm equipped to count them. I have a ton of copies the first half of the year. Like Project Hail Mary, which I adore that movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I really like Bone Temple.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wouldn't put Project Hail Mary up against this, but we haven't even hit the thick of Oscar season yet, so who knows?

[Mallory Rubin]

But I think this will be. It's hard to imagine this not Remaining a very strong contender for picture nominated. Yeah. No question.

[Joanna Robinson]

Obviously.

[Mallory Rubin]

How is this not going to win best Director?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so picture director.

[Mallory Rubin]

Director feels like even more likely to me than picture and Ludwig score. I think this has a real chance at adapted screenplay, cinematography.

[Joanna Robinson]

Three edited. You were allowed three edited. You're allowed three. You have to pick three.

[Mallory Rubin]

I haven't thrown out any performances, but I think all of those are more likely than a win for performance. I think it will be nominated for quite a few performances.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really going to depend how Damon's playing it. And he's already playing it, actually. Very. There's already this narrative of like, oh, my God, Damon hasn't done anything this good in so long. And don't we like to remember our movie stars and wouldn't it be nice to give him like, an award for that? So, like, again, I don't think. I think Gosling's better than in project Hail Mary than David is in this.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would give go the Oscar for

[Joanna Robinson]

best actor for right now, but, like,

[Mallory Rubin]

but maybe it'll be Timmy.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's going to be a narrative or not. And I, you know, Timmy has shown himself ill equipped to land this plane.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe this is the great. The great moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think, you know, Damon's on for Mountain, Amy Poehler's podcast and being charming as hell. Like, he's already playing it and he knows he's gonna know to, like, go away for a little bit like Michael B. Jordan did and then come back.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's the move. It's a great move.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, so three. I just think it's gonna win more than three Oscars.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't care. This is the prompt. God, you're mean. I could say one, but I'm giving you three.

[Mallory Rubin]

What if they do some of the split stuff with this and Dune, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, like, I'm not asking you to.

[Joanna Robinson]

To put a bet down. I'm just saying you're allowed to give out three Oscars for this great movie. Which three are you prioritizing? We're not putting any money on this picture director. And.

[Mallory Rubin]

I kind of want to say cinematography, but score is very tough not to pick. Yeah. What are you picking?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think I would do screenplay, editing, score, and cinematography.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, great. We can share. So you did screenplay, score, cinematography. You have awarded those three Oscars. The screenplay, score, and cinematography. You have presented those trophies. I will present the trophies for pictures, director and editing. Great. Fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Six Oscars and none for you, Dune 3. Okay, we'll see you for Oscar season We'll see you from our House of the Dragon. We'll see you for the Lestat finale. We'll see you in San Diego. We'll see you in Baltimore. We'll see you here in Los Angeles for an as yet unannounced event in August. And, I don't know, some Ringsy Lord of the Ringsy stuff in the fall.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Doom Lanterns.

[Joanna Robinson]

Doomsday. Have you heard of it? Clayface, we'll see you soon. Thank you. To our crew.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right, the squad.

[Joanna Robinson]

All of whom will make it home.

[Mallory Rubin]

I hope so. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Arjuna. Rug pal. Jacob. Cornette. Scott Lee. Carla Shiraboga. Am I missing anyone? Because I'm doing birthday boy. Show me at dinner on Happy Birthday. We'll see you soon. Bye.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sa.