‘The Punisher: One Last Kill.’ Plus, MCU Characters Who Deserve Their Own Specials.

Summary

Podcast Summary: 'The Punisher: One Last Kill.' Plus, MCU Characters Who Deserve Their Own Specials

House of R, The Ringer – May 14, 2026
Hosts: Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson

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Episode Overview

This episode of House of R features a two-part deep dive. First, Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson deliver a detailed breakdown and critical review of the Marvel special presentation "The Punisher: One Last Kill"—a new 44-minute MCU offering co-written by Jon Bernthal. The hosts explore the special’s creative choices, its place in the MCU, and debates its merits and shortcomings, all with their signature wit and in-depth fandom knowledge.
In the second half, Mallory and Joanna team up to draft their dream list of ten MCU characters (or duos) deserving of their own Marvel special—applying clear rules, sharp reasoning, and plenty of banter.

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Key Discussion Points, Insights, and Memorable Moments

1. Frank Castle Returns: The Review of 'One Last Kill'

[07:46–48:04]

Context and Expectations

• The Punisher special is 44 minutes (excluding credits), co-written by Jon Bernthal and director Reinaldo Marcus Green.
• The story is meant to bridge previous Punisher appearances and set up future MCU integration.
• Bernthal reportedly only agreed to return to the character after creative changes on Daredevil: Born Again allowed him creative input.

Thematic Approach

• "This is like the epitome of a Punisher story that [Bernthal] wanted to tell." – Joanna Robinson [12:18]
• Centered on classic Punisher themes: guilt, PTSD, rage, violence, and the cycle of retribution.

Timeline Confusion

• The hosts note the special’s unclear placement in continuity: "Is it supposed to be contemporaneous with season one of Daredevil Born Again...or before?" – Joanna Robinson [13:25]
• Mallory suggests the special is almost timeless: "For a character like Frank, progress is definitionally not going to be linear." [15:05]

Content and Structure

• Much of the runtime is revisiting Frank’s trauma, grief, and violent tendencies. The episode feels like a "recap" for those unfamiliar with the Netflix shows, to prep viewers for the upcoming Spider-Man: Brand New Day movie.
  • "It feels to me a little bit like, oh, okay, we're about to put him in a movie, but we want to catch them up on his trauma." – Mallory Rubin [17:27]
  • Joanna calls it "a complete failure" for not offering anything new: "Tells us nothing new about this character at all." [18:14]

Standout Performances and Missed Opportunities

• Mallory and Joanna agree Bernthal is compelling, especially in scenes with Karen (Deborah Ann Woll); "They always have great chemistry...I prefer Frank and Karen to Karen and Matt." – Mallory Rubin [19:58]
• Still, both criticize the lack of new emotional ground and shallow supporting characters: "You didn't actually make them characters." – Joanna [30:14]
• Noteworthy cameo: Judith Light as Ma Nucci—her "camp perfection" villain monologue is a highlight, described as "batshit" and "theater bizarre." [35:00–38:54]
  • "Juice Light really tried. Manu, she did her best to pull me back in." – Joanna Robinson [42:43]

Technical Gripes

• The episode is widely ridiculed for sub-par VFX (notably Frank’s backward fall onto a truck) and audio issues.
  • "In a time when Marvel is struggling with this VFX narrative, this was kind of an inexcusable shot...it looks like a video game cut scene." – Joanna [39:13]
  • "It almost does look like...the cinematic quality of [a video game]...but when it's in a live-action thing and then suddenly it's like that looks like an animated rendering." – Mallory [40:50]

Final Thoughts

• Both hosts found the special underwhelming—“indulgent” and not adding to Frank’s story, though Bernthal’s performance remains strong.
• Joanna sums up: “Jon Bernthal, you’re the one who did yourself dirty in this by insisting on having, like, this kind of creative control over it. You did not serve your own character at the end of the day.” [34:20]
• Acknowledgement that different MCU specials can target different fans: “The Punisher special doesn’t have to be for me...if there’s a bunch of people who loved it, great.” – Joanna [47:27]

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2. MCU Special Presentations: What Works, What Doesn’t?

[50:16–54:40]

• Evaluation of the special presentation format: Werewolf by Night regarded as the high-water mark—experimental, unique, with no need for MCU crossover.
• "Werewolf by Night ruled," says Joanna. "It’s exactly what I want Marvel to be doing." [52:19]
• Guardians Holiday Special: Fine, but not essential.
• Punisher: A failure.
• Suggestion that the format is best for "pilots" of off-beat, lesser-known characters, not for rehashing mainstays.

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3. MCU Dream Specials Draft

Draft Segment Begins: [54:27] | Results Recap: [78:14–79:47]

Rules of the Draft

• Must pick from existing on-screen MCU, Marvel Netflix, Sony, or Fox characters.
• Recasting not allowed; use existing actors.
• Prefer heroes/villains who have not had their own movie/show.
• Duos allowed (e.g., Mando & Grogu–style pairings).

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The Top 10 List

1. Bullseye (Daredevil: Born Again)
   • “Everyone else is competing for spots two through ten.” – Mallory
   • Pitch: Bullseye as a globe-trotting assassin for Mr. Charles, in the Nazi-hunter Magneto bar-killing mode. “Find me some Nazis or some equally horrible people...for my guy Dex to kill creatively.” – Joanna [57:24]
2. Madison & Wong (She-Hulk)
   • Mutual favorite: “I was most confident we would both have.” – Mallory [61:18]
   • Pitch: Day-in-the-life hijinks with Sorcerer Supreme Wong dealing with Madison’s drunken magical chaos, backdrop for potential “Strange Academy” stories.
3. Mephisto (Ironheart appearance, but mostly an MCU meme)
   • “Let’s reset Mephisto...do a one-hour special and put Mephisto wherever we want.” – Mallory [59:04]
4. Lady Death (Aubrey Plaza as Rio Vidal/Death, Agatha: Darkhold Diaries)
   • "Aubrey Plaza being hot is the premise." – Joanna [64:19]
   • Inspired by Sandman’s “Sound of Her Wings”—following Death’s day.
5. Druig & Makkari (Eternals)
   • “Druig and Makkari: The Adventures of Druig and Makari...space romcom romp.” – Joanna [66:37, 79:10]
6. Quicksilver (Evan Peters, X-Men/Fox)
   • Preference for Evan Peters over Aaron Taylor-Johnson: “That’s, I think, what would be really fun.” – Joanna [69:40]
   • Focus on inventive “Quicksilver scenes.”
7. X-23/Laura (Daphne Keen, Logan/Deadpool & Wolverine)
   • Pitch: A lone-wolf western—Laura wanders into town, tries to settle, trouble finds her; “Perfect.” – Mallory [72:14]
8. Clea (Charlize Theron, Doctor Strange: Multiverse of Madness)
   • “Door Mamu. I’ve come to bargain.” – Mallory [78:41] — Focus on Dormammu lore; making good on a wasted stinger.
9. Xu Wenwu (Tony Leung, Shang-Chi)
   • Just Tony Leung as a hot, tragic gangster for 44 minutes, says the hosts.
10. Dogpool (Deadpool & Wolverine, franchise)
    • “Dogpool in a sort of Muppet Babies–esque, knees-down-only adventure through the world.” – Joanna [78:14]
    • The whole world through Dogpool’s eyes; background ultraviolence, Deadpool shenanigans.

Honorable Mention (considered but not selected):

• Ghost Rider (Nic Cage or Gabriel Luna)
• Lady Sif, Grandmaster, Nebula & Rocket, Aunt May, Yondu, Silver Surfer (Julia Garner), Howard the Duck, Black Knight (Kit Harington), Arthur Harrow (Ethan Hawke), Red Hulk (Harrison Ford)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “This is like the epitome of a Punisher story that [Bernthal] wanted to tell...guilt, PTSD, rage and violence. Guess what? I already knew that.” – Joanna Robinson [12:18]
• “For a character like Frank, progress is definitionally not going to be linear.” – Mallory Rubin [15:05]
• “I think this performance is so mesmerizing in its intensity and commitment that I’m always interested in watching him.” – Mallory Rubin [15:05]
• “This is a complete failure. I think this special is a complete failure.” – Joanna Robinson [17:58]
• “Are you here, Karen? Are you with me?” – Jon Bernthal’s Frank Castle [20:19]
• “Juice Light really tried. Ma Nucci did her best to pull me back in.” – Joanna Robinson [42:43]
• “Indulgent—overindulgent...serving one person’s goal and desire, which isn’t serving the larger storytelling.” – Joanna Robinson [26:46]
• “Call us. We’re available.” – Mallory and Joanna, after completing their Top 10 list [79:47]

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Segment Timestamps

• [07:46–39:13] – Main review and dissection of The Punisher: One Last Kill special
• [39:13–48:04] – VFX, technical complaints, and final thoughts
• [50:16–54:40] – Discussion: Strategy of Marvel’s special presentations / Review of format
• [54:27–79:47] – Drafting the Top 10 MCU Characters for New Specials
• [78:14–79:47] – Final Top 10 recap, wrap-up

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Overall Tone and Delivery

Mallory and Joanna are insightful, playful, occasionally salty fan-critics. They balance genuine appreciation for standout performances (Bernthal, Judith Light) with sharp criticisms of technical and narrative misfires. Their banter and camaraderie, deep Marvel knowledge, and willingness to indulge in nerdy hypotheticals make this episode especially engaging for fans and newcomers alike.

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Summary: Worth the Listen?

If you’re a Punisher or MCU fan looking for an incisive yet entertaining review—or seeking inspiration for untapped MCU side-character gold—this episode delivers both honest criticism and creative fantasy casting, all laden with quotable lines and plenty of laughs.

Transcript

[Mallory Rubin]

Foreign.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hello. Welcome to a very normal episode of House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, the Luminous, the ever present, Malia Rubin.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm the one who's doing the punishing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Now, I've always said, I always thought that you and Frank Castle have a lot in common. Oh, man.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that we should do the entire podcast as Frank Castle and Ma Nucci. Why not?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. But I get to be dibs on Manucci.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dibs on Frank Castle.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. This really fits our profile. Okay, we are here ostensibly to talk about Punisher one last kill, the Marvel special presentation that dropped this week. But also we're here to collaboratively come up with the 10 MCU characters that we would like to see get their very own special presentation.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know who else can kill an untold number of people? Who else can chew prescription pills like it's no problem? Who else can do bloody palmed pull ups?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm excited to talk through the exercise regimen. See what you think I could personally handle. Let's, let's, let's break it down.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, great question. All of that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, after this. This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Call it all trainers. The Pokemon and target collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon is almost here and the lineup is kind of incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

A few are sure to be fan faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles and even caboodles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which feels perfect because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure. And Target is bringing fans together to celebrate that spirit.

[Joanna Robinson]

The first drop is in store May

[Mallory Rubin]

2 online May 3 with the second drop June 6.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

Restrictions apply.

[Joanna Robinson]

See [e-mail] predict bonus offer terms. Okay, it is friend of the pod month. It is the month of May and we've got a bunch of pals who are joining us to talk about Dark Knight.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Talk about Mando and Grogu to talk about Survivor. Talk about a number of other things that are coming up. That's right.

[Mallory Rubin]

No friends today though.

[Joanna Robinson]

We had a friend who was Supposed to be here, but he could not make it.

[Mallory Rubin]

But with us in spirit.

[Joanna Robinson]

With us in spirit. Mark Bernardin. Thank you so much, Mark.

[Mallory Rubin]

We love you. We miss you. Come back.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's been years. Yeah. He's stuck in the writers room today. He couldn't make it. But more importantly, it's 25 days until the Vampire Lestat premieres.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just incredible, incredible stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's my world. We're all living in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm thrilled. I'm just thrilled for you. I got to witness you in the wild last night. Just evangelize to genuine strangers.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yep.

[Mallory Rubin]

Go up to people who you'd met mere moments prior and say, correct. Have I convinced you to watch the Vampire Lestat? It's a privilege to witness you.

[Joanna Robinson]

More importantly, Mallory, what were we doing in the wild last night?

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't even talk about how this dream goes. Last night was the most important and most meaningful night of my life because I got to hang out with me. Hang out with you. It's true. And every time I hang out with you, it feels like that. We got to go to the Harrison Ford Whiskey event. His glenmorangie Whiskey. They threw a party.

[Joanna Robinson]

They did. At the Sunset Tower.

[Mallory Rubin]

At the Sunset Tower. I've lived in Los Angeles for 13 years.

[Joanna Robinson]

Never been our first time at the Sunset Tower together.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wonderful, wonderful experience. And Harrison Ford was there, and he was in a kilt, and I got to shake his hand, look into his incredibly blue eyes. And you took, like, no fewer than 75 pictures, all of which I look extremely normal and cool in. Are they okay?

[Joanna Robinson]

You haven't posted them, so I'm worried that they're all bad and that's my fault.

[Mallory Rubin]

I need to, like. It's just one of those things where I got home last night and I was like, we've got two pods to record. Next day, another one tomorrow morning. We've got three pods in 36 hours. A real normal one for us. And I was like, I should probably do some prep and wait to spend the multiple hours I intend to spend putting that Instagram carousel together in a couple days. But it was just actually genuinely magical. Shout out to Jesse.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Jesse.

[Mallory Rubin]

For the invite. Jesse the legend. Jesse the God. Shout out Derek. Derek who?

[Joanna Robinson]

Who sort of ushered you towards Harrison Ford. He's like, now, now, now we're going to do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unbelievable stuff from Derek and. And Derek's wife.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

House of our Head.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, this is a great evening.

[Mallory Rubin]

We met several listeners all again on another pod that more people are going to listen to than the Punisher.

[Joanna Robinson]

You don't think the throngs are listening to the Punisher Frog.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's say it on the Dark Knight and Star wars pods, just in case.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, we're going to run it back. But anyway, for you few, you happy few who are here to listen to us talk about you, get the first blush of reaction of Mallory Rubin. I got to watch Mallory meet Harrison Ford through the lens of my iPhone as I snapped no fewer than a hundred photos of you. And it was just wonderful.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was really special.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was wonderful. He was great in his kilch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure did.

[Joanna Robinson]

He had a lot of vim and vigor and was total command of the room. No surprise, cracking wise during this Q and A. He was both over it and also fully there at the same time.

[Mallory Rubin]

He is exactly what you would want him to be. Just totally complete, undeniable perfection.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm so happy for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, God.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Mallory took me instead of her husband. And that's. That's. That's what I have to say about that. Thank you.

[Mallory Rubin]

He was very supportive from afar. He was. He was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Shout out, Adam. All right, so to hear us repeat this anecdote two more times on other podcasts, please make sure you subscribe to House of Rich. Follow us on socials.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ouseofarpod on TikTok. On Instagram. Why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Where aren't we?

[Joanna Robinson]

What a great idea. Hobbitsanddragonmail.com inbox is always open. You sent us some Star wars questions. We're gonna ask them of our guests that we have on that pod, which we're very excited about, recording that in mere hours.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's Grogu.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not Grogu. It is, in fact, not Grogu. And if it were Grogu, would he be able to answer the question?

[Mallory Rubin]

Stop it.

[Joanna Robinson]

No babbling and cooing. I'm getting it out of the way now.

[Mallory Rubin]

The babbles and coo. No, you gotta bring it out later. Come on. The babbles and coos are just. It's the truest form of communication.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do plan to dress like that. Our guest, a storyteller whom we both admire deeply. It's not Grogu if Grogu is a character or an accessory. And we'll get into it. But that's not this pod. This pod is about Punisher. Great stuff. Spoiler warning for Punisher. Yeah, Anything Punisher's ever been in. That's right, the Netflix series.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Daredevil. Born Again, Season one. The comic Books, et cetera, et cetera, the Tom Jane movie, whatever you prefer. The whole Punisher canon is on the table.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're going to talk briefly about this. 44 minute long.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was short. Yeah. I was surprised by the runtime.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then we're going to do our little, like, dream casting.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, Marvel, call us.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will be really fun and I'm looking forward to it. You're looking forward to it? Is it just like you're not ready to stop talking about Bullseye? I mean, it could be. And what would be wrong with that?

[Joanna Robinson]

I believe there's nothing. Only one clear number one choice. But we can discuss it. We can debate it if you want. You won't win, but we can talk about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, God.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's go now to our opening snapshot.

[Mallory Rubin]

The, like, neon effect on that. Great stuff. Wonderful. We get to see the graphics now. They're fired live, as the kids say. Beautiful.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're in the best mood I've ever seen. I just go to basking in the

[Mallory Rubin]

gloves and a lot of coffee. Also. Also, the Orioles kicked the Yankees ass today. Two out of one. Everything's coming against the Yankees. I mean, still well below.500. But not for long, folks. Not for long.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's the radish back? What is the true test of friendship that I displayed to you last night? Thank you so much for this whiskey company for having us. I do not personally care for whiskey, but you're.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're a tequila.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I did drink two. I sipped from two different whiskey drinks. I felt quite ill, really. I just don't get whiskey. And I do not get. So, yeah, I love a brown liquor. There we go. You know who else loves a brown liquor?

[Mallory Rubin]

Frank Castle.

[Joanna Robinson]

Frank Castle. All right, so this is 44 minutes, not including credits.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Co written by Jon Bernthal himself and Ronaldo Marcus Green. Directed by Ronaldo Marcus Green, who also directed King Richard, as well as collaborated with Jon Bernthal on We Own the City.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which means, I mean, it's like we don't need to wait for friend of the Podmont to talk about crazy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you going to do your Wayne Duncan?

[Mallory Rubin]

I like to think that for me, a Wayne Jenkins is. It's very authentic because as we all know, the Baltimore accent, it's just a part of my experience. But Wayne Jenkins is one of the central creative forces for Chris Ryan and thus rewatchables and thus the Ringer podcast network. And thus the ringer.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you talk to him about this special?

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I know he's not. I was thinking our plans have changed a little. As alluded to earlier. I was like, should we.

[Joanna Robinson]

Should we tap in cr.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's on the East Coast.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tough. Tough for us.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very tough.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I know that because I bought him an oriole hat. And I was like, is this the week I bring it to you? He's on the East Coast. Do you think he'll know?

[Joanna Robinson]

I've been giving him a lot of

[Mallory Rubin]

feedback on his hat.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's really into his Oakland A's hat,

[Mallory Rubin]

but he's wearing a Detroit Tigers hat a lot. I texted him a picture. I bought it for him in Baltimore when I was in Baltimore, and I

[Joanna Robinson]

thought that Dick Sporting Goods.

[Mallory Rubin]

Correct. Where I purchased a baseball glove for things that we'll talk about at another time. And I saw this great hat in the New City Connect line. I thought, this is the. This feels. Feels like a CR Hat. Genuinely. Not just because I'm like, stop wearing fucking Tigers and A's hats. Wear an oriole hat. But it just felt. It called to me. It felt like cr. I took a picture of it. I mean, I bought it first, and then I took a picture of it and I sent to him, and I was like, no press. Yeah, gotcha. This hat, you don't have to wear it if you don't want it. I'll keep it. And I don't really wear hats because I have a really, like, oddly shaped

[Joanna Robinson]

head and my ears glossy hair that cannot be contained.

[Mallory Rubin]

Backwards hats a lot. When I was in middle school, maybe I'll go back to that, depending on how the haircut goes. Next week, we'll.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just started wearing some.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I mean, I always wear sambos, as, you know, so that part of the look has transcended time. Not only did I wear backwards hats, I wore routinely backwards. No fear hats. Remember this from our youths?

[Joanna Robinson]

I do.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like a real. Just commitment I had to a certain type of fashion. Anyway, Chris said he thought that the hat was beautiful. And I haven't gotten to give it to him yet, but I am. I'm. I'm sure he'll wear it. It's the Camden green, the scripto with the little bird in the middle. Wonderful. And I can't comment on whether he's the Punisher.

[Joanna Robinson]

Was this whole anecdote brought to you, brought to us by your concern earlier that we would not even make an hour long on this podcast?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I never worry about that with us.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just excited to be here with you

[Joanna Robinson]

talking about life some Quick context for this special, which is that John Bernthal did not agree with the direction they were taking Frank Castle in Daredevil Born Again until they hired the Punisher showrunner to take over on Daredevil Born Again. And so he came back and that's why we got a little bit of Frank Castle in the first season of Daredevil Born. Again.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some of the highlights of season one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. We were fans.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

But as part of this sort of conversation about, hey, I'm John Bernthal, I've been playing Frank Castle for a while. I have some thoughts on what direction he should go in. They negotiated this special presentation where he co wrote story and this is like the epitome of a Punisher story that he wanted to tell. And he's like, this is what Frank Castle is really about, which is stabby. You've heard this before. Guilt, ptsd, rage and violence. Guess what? I already knew that. But here it is in all his glory in terms of when this special is set. Yeah, Dario, in an interview, I believe the Variety said, quote, I think this tells the story of what happens next after Punisher and before and during events of Born Again season two. And between those things, Daredevil Born Again season one happens. So I don't know, I don't really have a clear idea of when exactly this is supposed to be. Is this supposed to be contemporaneous with season one of Daredevil Born Again? Is it supposed to be before, like the Frank that they meet in Daredevil Born Again season one? Does that feel like someone who just killed an entire high rise full of goons or you know, someone who's still doing bloody palmed pull ups or what do you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know that it is like totally clear in the special because you have this like mix of time elements, the predominant events, like the massive set piece, the action sequence, Ma Nucci, in one of the most remarkable scenes in the history of television, just can't wait to talk about it. Saying, you know, 647 and embedded in my brain forever, that's when I will be seeking revenge. But then Frank's like, I'm just gonna go upstairs. You know, got some follow up questions and some notes on that. But. So this is like a day in the life of the Punisher. He wakes up, he goes to the gravesite. However, the Nucci killing is the aftermath of. So the aftermath is this day. But how long did it take him to mow down the entire family? And so we have this mix maybe of the playing out in tandem with and then taking us up to this current moment in time.

[Joanna Robinson]

This anarchy that we find Little Italy in Little Sicily. Sorry. This anarchy that we find Little Sicily in this complete hellscape.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is this under Mayor Kingpin Post Mayor Kingpin Pandemonium? Yeah. You know, like what? I don't have the answer to that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And I think that one of the. I guess what I don't know is how intentional this thing I'm about to say next is, or how maybe just kind of like this is a byproduct of how this was made. I think that the fact that the story is very interested in, you know, as you just outlined this, it's the study of ptsd. It's a study of grief, but, like, specifically, like the unrelenting nature of grief. And I think there is something I love, as I've said many times on the pods, Jon Berenthal's Frank Castle. Like, I think this performance is like, to me, just so kind of mesmerizing in its intensity and commitment that I'm always interested in watching him. Is the progress for his character linear in a way that allows us to exactly slot in placement contextually to other events and other shows that he appears in or other prominent movies that he's about to appear in? I would say no. I guess that the team that made this could say that's maybe the product of, like, never knowing when something is going to run in the mcu. And maybe it's the product of, well, we can lean into that, make it a feature, not a bug, and say that for a character like Frank, that progress is definitionally not going to be linear. And he might seem at one point like he's in a good place and then be pulled back in and subsumed by the grief. I think whether that's effective for each individual viewer will probably depend on their relationship to this performance and the character, their tolerance for hard. Our violence. Right. Because this is an absolute, easily the most intense bloodbath we've seen in the mcu. Like, by like a comfortable margin. Nothing's even close. Right. Move over with a pencil. We've got. With a blue pen.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, it's. There's a lot of blood. I. I thought that this was, like, not unentertaining to watch.

[Joanna Robinson]

Actually, that was not my sense talking to you before.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't understand why it exists and what they're trying to achieve. So I think that there's something that, to me is kind of always interesting about spending an hour with Barenthal's Frank Castle. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Because the story revisits so many of the same beats, it feels to me a little bit like, oh, okay, we're about to put him not just in a movie, but in a Spider man movie. And we want to make sure that if people didn't watch the two seasons of Punisher on Netflix, Frank's appearances in the Netflix Daredevil Frank and Daredevil Born Again, that we could quickly, in 44 minutes, like, catch them off on his trauma. So it doesn't feel new, essentially.

[Joanna Robinson]

And you had floated this theory to me before, and essentially what you're saying is that this is like those, like, little packages that they put out before WandaVision and Falcon the Winter Soldier of, like, in case you didn't watch all the movies, here's this, like, the legacy things they were doing for us. While, I guess, I think, and I,

[Mallory Rubin]

I, I don't know that that's a good strategy.

[Joanna Robinson]

To be clear, I don't usually come out. I, I, I don't usually. I think this is a complete failure. I think this special is a complete failure. And I also enjoy Dawn Bernthal as Frank Castle in very specific circumstances as a foil for Matt. You know, really good stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

The best.

[Joanna Robinson]

And, and I, I understand the idea of this notion of grief and trauma being regressive or cursive that, that you, like, have trouble escaping it. Expect. Nor do I want a completely therapized, shiny, happy Frank Castle. That's not who that character is or ever should be. But I feel like to encounter this character inside of this story, which tells us nothing new about this character at all, and then doesn't even really set up, I think. And, you know, it's 44 minutes, so what can you do in having to sort of remind maybe new audiences why he's as upset as he is both his war trauma and his personal family trauma. And so at that point, then you only have, like, 20 minutes or whatever to do this, like, giant action set piece, which is also, I mean, and maybe my, my social media feeds are biased, but is getting, like, ridiculed for some of the VFX and audio issues that, that came with this special. So I think if the point was to honor Frank Castle or Jon Kurnthal's performance or put a shine on this performance and get people excited to see, I was more excited to see him in the Spider man movie before this, before this special than after it.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I'm like, quite so this is the duality of the experience of this for me, like, I watch him. I'm about to say something nice about Karen. Buckle up. Imagine, like, feeling completely untethered from your mental state. And then Karen is there. Woo. Tough. Still, I found that moment between the

[Joanna Robinson]

she and his wife. Love, the same merch, have the same taste.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was a great. Just a great little touch, the shirt. I thought that, like, first of all, they always have great chemistry together. And I, as you know, I ship them. I prefer Frank and Karen to Karen and Matt. The way that Frank said, like, are you here, Karen?

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you with me?

[Mallory Rubin]

I was like, man, this is, to me, really, like, actually intense and compelling, Completely rehashing everything that had happened with his family. Now, again, to be clear, like, of course, the character would carry that with him in perpetuity, of course. But for the viewer, what is new about that experience? Like, I think watching Frank sit against the tombstone and feel like he is. The way he said, I'm tired. I'm tired. Like, he has run out of the ability to talk himself into taking that next step forward. Even the idea of pursuing his vengeance. His kill list, or this idea that,

[Joanna Robinson]

like, he finished his list and what's there left to do, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

And then it's like, is there ever one last kill for Frank Castle? That's all kind of interesting. I just. There had to have been a way to do that without feeling the need to spend half of the runtime. I would say the better half, counterintuitively, was the first half because it was the more emotional half, but it was also the half that had nothing new in it. Right? So that's tricky. You know, the storybook and his kids and the wife and Curtis and, like, I'm waiting to see Jigsaw. You know, we're only missing. Where's Clancy Brown? We're only missing a couple familiar faces.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ben Barnes.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know. Let's get Ben Barnes back in. I think that if. And I don't know, I'm just speculating, but if the motivation was, let's catch people up who missed all this. My question becomes, what tonally here is transferring to Spider Man? The answer is absolutely nothing, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

So here's a quote that there's no way that Jon Bernthal gave. So it's Jon Bernthal Summer, right? We got. Last week, we got this special episode of the Bear that dropped Gary.

[Mallory Rubin]

I haven't watched it yet. Is it good?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll talk about in a second. We get the Punisher special. He's gonna be in the Odyssey. And he's gonna be in Spider Man, Brand New Day. And this is what he told the. On the Kelly Clarkson show. This is what he said about the tone.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

With Spider Man, I think what was most important, because obviously, tonally, it's different and such an honor to be a part of it, especially with my dear friend Tom Holland. It was important to us that one Punisher could walk off one set and walk onto the another. Tonally, they couldn't be more different, but I hope we were able to achieve that. It's very important. And this is the constant, like, struggle. This is a bigger picture struggle of the MCU when they try to create a world where all of these characters can conceivably interact with each other. But can we make fun stories that feel different and experimental and tonally, you know, can we make Guardians feel different enough that we're doing a different tone, a James Gunn tone? We're out in outer space. And then the Guardians can mix with the rest of the Avengers. Like, that's a successful version of that. But, like, I think some of the critiques of the mcu, which is that it feels so. Same, same, same. One of the reasons why is so that they can have all of their various action figures, like, fight together. And so to think about this Punisher Special, to think about people going to see the Spider, like young fans going to see the Spider man movie and then being like, can we go watch the Punisher special? Yeah, certainly not, right? Not that they have to, but, like, I.

[Mallory Rubin]

But then what is its utility?

[Joanna Robinson]

What's the point of it? And, like, I don't. I don't think I'll be very curious if in Brand New Day we spend. We need this backstory for Frank. I don't think we will at all.

[Mallory Rubin]

And even that's why. That's what I was gonna ask you next is like, do you anticipate. Because we have. This is all speculation based on trailers and stuff, we have speculated that part of the structure of Brand New Day might be these, like, little vignettes with various foes scattered across the city. Like, is. Is Man Noocci gonna be one of them? Like, I don't think so. Could the state of little Sicily come into play?

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

But then gets back to your Fisk point. If part of the desire to do this is like, let's con. Okay, We've done Born Again season two. We're gonna do this Frank special. Frank is gonna be in Brand New Day. It's this stretch of, like, the grounded street level heroes in New York more clearly rooted in this moment in time in a way that makes it very apparent, in addition to just Jon Bernthal wanted to do a Punisher special. And, like, we wanted to make one. Why it has to be here, literally, like, not only in the continuity of the story, but in our real lives.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, it feels like something they put a fit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Put a Fisk poster in the background somewhere.

[Joanna Robinson]

It feels like something they gave an actor who was frustrated with what was going on with his character in the mcu. And they're like, we're gonna give you this, and we want to use you. We want to use the Punisher and Spider man, and we think it would be great. And I am excited for that. I think it does look great. Jon Bernthal. So we just had, like, one of our best episodes of this year was sitting down with Sam Witwer and talking to him about Maul, a character that he's played for a really long time, and getting to hear his insights into Maul and hear about the collaborative process in making the Maul show. And so there are definitely times when an actor who has spent a long time with a character and thought a lot about a character, like, their insights are incredibly important inside of the creation of what's the next chapter for that character.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

John Bernthal, who is not by trade a writer, co wrote the Bear Special and co wrote this special. They came out within a week of each other, is currently starring on Broadway and Dog Day Afternoon with Eben Moss Bagrak, who is in the Bear Special with him, et cetera, et cetera. John Bernthal is extremely good at intense, crying, emotional, all this sort of stuff like that he created in both that episode of the Bear and this, a playground for him to do that exact register, but kind of only that exact register. And to me, it feels indulgent, it feels overindulgent of an actor who's like, this is something that I love to do. And I'm. And no one does it as well as I do. And I'm like, I agree, but I don't think it's calibrated inside of it. I thought the Bear Special was slightly more successful because Marin Ireland is in it. She's really, really good, and the ending of that episode is really good, but it did not strike me as a good episode of the Bear, and this does not strike me as a good episode inside of the MCU because it's serving one person's goal and desire, which is not serving the larger storytelling, I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Well, I think that if there is in the business. I think that's a very fair point. If in the business of Hollywood and the move in and shaking that is sometimes the calculus, then surely there is a way then to showcase that desire, those performance impulses with more new story around it. Right? And then that's actually exciting and fun, and it's kind of. We have a few more things about the special itself to talk to before we get to our 10 characters who shot the special. But this is very connected to what we will talk about when we get there, because it's like, well, what should the function of the special presentation be? And Frank is in this really interesting place where, like, on the one hand, because the character has moved from Netflix into Disney as other characters have, you kind of like, if you remove yourself from actually assessing the creative execution, which, like, is not what we're here to do on this podcast, but in theory, like, you can understand maybe, okay, let's, like, in this contained space, get this character back in the mix. But because that's not what happened, then it's like, well, why? Why do it in 44 minutes in the first place? Because, Frank, and we've talked about this before, too, with the difference between the Netflix seasons and the Disney seasons. Like, and you know, to be clear, like, at the time, we obviously both adore the Daredevil show. A lot of the discussion around the broader Netflix universe was like, these seasons are way too long. But they were long, which meant you got a ton of time with the characters. So two seasons of the Punisher plus his Daredevil appearances is the equivalent of, like, four or five seasons of a Disney show in terms of sheer tonnage. Right? Correct. So we have had so much time with Frank Castle that this might sound sort of inane after, like, saying, did this really work? But I'm like, give us a full season to really do something totally new and bring this character back.

[Joanna Robinson]

And full, very least, like, 90 minutes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, this was too short.

[Joanna Robinson]

And like, okay, that. Let's just. Let's go into it. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Join the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's get into it. Judith Light, you're always welcome.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait to talk about that.

[Joanna Robinson]

One of the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, God.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, as we talk about what's here. Yeah. We meet a vet named Johnny right. At the very beginning. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was where I was concerned because a brutal dog murder right off the bat is a tough one for me personally.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was shocked and surprised that you kept watching, honestly. And it was horrifying.

[Mallory Rubin]

So upsetting.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then we get Andre Royo From Bubbles from the Wire is here as a character named Andre Dre and then his daughter Charlie. And they're sort of like an important symbol of what's worth protecting here in the neighborhood. These three characters are important symbol of what's worth defending. This is the Shire. This is what's worth defending inside of this absolutely chaotic neighborhood that we found ourselves in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes,

[Joanna Robinson]

Johnny. The thing with the dog murder is, like, we have so little time to meet Johnny. This is what I'm talking about. If we had more time, yeah, for sure. We wouldn't need, I think, to, like, kill his dog in order to care about him. If we had time to flesh out who this character is. He's a Marine. We know this cause he's got the hat and he's whistling the tune, and he named his dog Camo. So we're like, okay, soldier, right? And then we've got dad, right? That's Frank Castle's other identity, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, girl dad, Right. And so, like. Yeah, but Dre, I mean, as soon as I saw Andre Royo, who, like, he shows up, right, in the first few minutes, I was like, oh, my God, how exciting. They got him here. And then they like to. To do what? It really could have been anyone in that role because they didn't really use him. So I'm just saying, like, we had more time to spend with a vibrant neighborhood, worth defending risk, you know, and then he's got, like, you know, there's a boy in his building who's like a neighbor, you know, like, all that sort of stuff. Like, I understand. I understand the function on a basic screenwriting level that all of these characters serve, but you didn't actually make them characters. And, like, I think you could have if you wanted to, for sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

And how interesting is it potentially for Frank's journey with this is the shop that he goes to to get his morning coffee. And every day, the walk to this place is like a fugue state journey through the chaos around him that is kind of an undeniable reminder not only that his personal vengeance quest has not made the city safer, but maybe done the opposite. But he's not engaging with that idea at all.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

But he could have with more dime. And then he gets there, and we're moving toward, over multiple episodes. Perhaps this moment where Charlie, the young daughter who he saves, gives him this flower that he then takes to his daughter's grave, and he says, met someone today. Reminded me of you. And that is an inside episode. Of course, it is still a mini journey, but where, like, we maybe got to see the resentment. Looking at this intact, beautiful family, this family that is still together, that wasn't torn apart, that maybe it's hard for Frank in every moment to act for the good and trust of others when they have a thing he no longer does. I feel like it would be incredible to see him really work through that with this character. Set the boy in the building and the Knicks jersey, shout out, Fenrock now and always. You know, that was, like, even more so than Dre and Charlie and the donut shop family. Like, it really made everyone in the special feel like. And this is kind of an interesting, like, you see, again, the logic behind it, but it ends up being an indentation, excitement of the execution and maybe even the core intention. Like, Frank Castle, just like so many comic book characters, vigilante and anti hero, is a cipher for something. He's a symbol for something. And part of what we get to interrogate as viewers or readers when we're sitting down with a comic book or watching one of these shows or movies is like, who does the character think they are when they become that symbol, right? What are they trying to achieve and represent for other people? And then is that what other people take from it? The problem becomes when every other character in the story around them also becomes just a symbol for something instead of a fully realized character, right? So, like, you're the symbol for the happy family, but the family who is under threat. You're the symbol for the daughter I lost who can allow me to move into a place of, like, maybe those reminders. And I think this was, like, one of the more like, successful emotional notes in the special. Ultimately, is, like, the thing that Frank is really unable to tolerate in this moment in his life is the memories, right? Like, there's this kind of, like, unrelenting, unceasing crashing wave of the reminders of the family that he lost and couldn't save, right? The carousel, the idea that, like, other people in the world who remind him of what he doesn't have and what he couldn't protect. That inadequacy, right? That failure that he believes he. His failure as a father, a protector, a provider, that the reminders could be sources of joy. Someone made me think of my daughter today, and it made me smile. Like, that's potentially really rich.

[Joanna Robinson]

You've mined a lot of potential that is not here in these 44 minutes, you know, which I think speaks to

[Mallory Rubin]

how the character can be really interesting as a text.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really agree. I really agree. I think Dawn Bernthal Is incredibly great casting as Frank Castle. He has done incredible work as his character, and I think he deserved a better special presentation. And what's so funny is I'm like, Jon Bernthal, you're the one who did yourself dirty in this by insisting on having, like, this kind of creative control over it. You did not serve your own character at the end of the day, I think in what we got here, let's talk about Judith Light as Ma Nucci.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would love to. I thought this sequence was batshit.

[Joanna Robinson]

I loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is classic.

[Joanna Robinson]

I loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. I'm shocked.

[Joanna Robinson]

I loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me why.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, Judith Light, star of stage and screen, she is the queen of camp. And so, like, I just. I guess having spent time with her in the, like, Ryan Murphy verse, I was just like, this is what I want from her. And I just thought it was so, like, you know, again, like, all of the writing in this special, it's very obvious. Like, this idea of the cycle of violence is sort of like, here's someone who has, I mean, lost her pedophile son, I guess.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fucking nuts. Whatever the rumor said. I knew he never touched a single one of those kids. My beautiful. But it's like, it's.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's the last of us. It's like, what. You know, what can you. In defense or in vengeance? In pursuit of vengeance from what you lost. What loss did you cause elsewhere in the world? And the. The cycle of violence will never cease because of it. And I don't know. Judith Light with, like, the. You know, the. The double canes and, like, the whole thing. I just thought it was like camp perfection. I did include in the notes here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

The link to Secret Invasion, the platitude scene. Because I imagine. I imagine you thought it was more on that level. But I just, like. I really enjoy Doth Light all the time. So this was, like, a rare highlight for me of this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm thrilled to hear it. When Manucci showed up, I gasped. I was just like, what is this? Oh, my God, Jude Light is here. What's about to happen. This is gonna be wild. And you know the rewatchables category of person who's in the wrong movie? It really was that to me, but, like, not in an unentertaining reality.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't disagree with you, but I think she was in.

[Mallory Rubin]

She would have preferred that movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think she was in a better.

[Mallory Rubin]

Totally fair. Totally fair. I was like, actual. Could feel like my mouth, like, jaw on the floor watching this because I was like, okay, these flashbacks, first of all, I. And it actually. It pulled me out of it from the Frank perspective, because I'm like, interesting. I'm disappointed in Frank. Not for murdering legions, though, as always. We have some notes. He didn't think the woman was, like, worth killing. Like, follow through. It is. It is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Kill Ma. Don't not just eat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Carlo. Let Ma Nucci live.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unbelievable. This sequence of, like, her describing the family members that he took away. And we flash to the husband, Benny, stinking like the. The sluts he met at the pool and their cheap perfume. I was just like. I feel like I have been transported in the multiverse into a different version of this episode in real time. I was like, what is happening? And then the next one, Bobby, who's going down on this chick in hot pink lingerie. One of the all time. They could not even be bothered to position his head in the right place. He's like, right here. Come on, guys. Like, let's. Let's try to frame this a little bit more convincingly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe he has a belly button fetish.

[Mallory Rubin]

It could be throat slit, blood sprays all over her. Then we go to Eddie, killed at his kid's birthday party. And then Carlo and the. The moment where she's, like, recounting that. He says, ma, it's going to be okay. But it wasn't okay. And it will never be okay again.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cinema.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is going on?

[Joanna Robinson]

Theater Bizarre.

[Mallory Rubin]

When she said, I'm the one who's doing the punishing now. Adam and I turned to each other and it was like, just shout. Who's the boss now, bitch? Just do it. Lean in on the bit in full.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, but she didn't put on the poster. Put on the merch. I'm the one doing the punishing now. Incredible. Incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, God.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's your biggest takeaway from this whole endeavor? Hmm,

[Mallory Rubin]

Good question.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you feel about the. So, I mean, we should address the VFX thing, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Because this is.

[Joanna Robinson]

This has gone super viral. There's a. There's a shot of Frank Castle falling down onto a truck where there has obviously been some digital work done. James Hibbert at the Holly Reporter did some PR work for Disney and was like. Actually, that was a stunt effect that was done in camera. We just digitally replaced the face, and that's why it looks so weird. And I'm just. I have a heart. You're gonna have to really release the footage because it does look like a video game. And maybe if it was done in camera and, like, the responses I Saw to that on my Twitter feed today. Were like, you're telling me some stunt guy risked all of his vertebrae doing that stunt for it to look like a video game cut scene. Like that's what you're talking about here. Yeah, it's a. In. In a time when Marvel is. Is still struggling with this VFX narrative. Yeah, this was kind of an inexcusable shot to leave inside of shocking, you know, the end product here. The audio issues, which, like Disney, I guess responded. A bunch of people wrote in saying like, hey, it's coming out of the wrong speakers. And. And Disney responded. This is also inside the Hibbard THR article. Disney responded, said, thanks so much for flagging for us. We're fixing it. So like the audio was fucked up. This VFX shot is still in there. And I'm just like, why was it. Why does it feel so slapdash something like this, you know, at the end of the day when. When the whole Marvel machine has slowed its output theoretically to improve the quality.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And make everything feel more like fully realized and optimized. I. Yeah. We were texting last. The very video gamey shot of Frank falling backwards. And it just like it almost does look like. You know, and you would. You would say when you're looking at a video game, oh my God, the cinematic quality of this. But when it's in a live action thing and then suddenly it's like that looks like an animated rendering. It was. It really like pulls you out of it for a second watching it. I didn't personally notice the audio stuff though. I. As you know, I'm like going deaf. So that could have been me. And also we watched on screeners and then I. Yeah. So that maybe. Maybe it's coded differently for that. Probably is.

[Joanna Robinson]

But yeah, that's not.

[Mallory Rubin]

None of that is very good. Also in general, in a stretch like

[Joanna Robinson]

that where

[Mallory Rubin]

the choreography and blocking and sequencing of that entire sequence is so precise, that was a real kind of glamour hero moment that people were gonna be looking at. So for that to be the shot, it looks bad. Very strange. The.

[Joanna Robinson]

Given the dead dog and everything else and everyone is converging to kill this person. It was real John Wick 2.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. For sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Real smoking aces. I was reminded of a couple Ben Wheatley movies. Free Fire, High Rise, some attack the block energy. Like. And that's a setup that I like. Everyone is trying to kill this one dude and this one dude is so good at killing that he kills all these other dudes while trying to protect all of the innocents around him. Like, that's a. That's a great setup. And so that sequence is something that I. Did you not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you not like the actual kind of, like, action of it? Like, as an action set piece?

[Joanna Robinson]

I liked it well enough, but it came at a point in this episode where I was. I was already just so frustrated when I was watching back in.

[Mallory Rubin]

You were.

[Joanna Robinson]

Juice Light really tried, Manu. She did her best to pull me back in.

[Mallory Rubin]

I am sometimes like you.

[Joanna Robinson]

So now if Manici shows up in Spider man, brand new.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. What I want is for her to go find Mob Lake. Let's just get all the mas in one room.

[Joanna Robinson]

What if she shows up and does

[Mallory Rubin]

say, they're definitely both fist supporters.

[Joanna Robinson]

No question. What if she says, who's the boss now, bitch in Spider Man?

[Mallory Rubin]

Brandon, I will stand up in the theater and fucking clap Juice Light.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not too late to ADR that mc. If you're listening, I will clap.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I. You know, there's obviously something and, you know, like, bracket complimentary because I enjoy this aspect of video games. There's something kind of inherently like video gamey about, but also plenty of cinematic and TV comps for a sequence like that. Like, I love comps that. That you just mentioned. Like, I thought that sometimes with Punisher, I'm very aware that, like, you know, a character who is taking the law and societal. You know. Yeah. Into his own hands and saying the way that I'm gonna set things right is my own idea of justice and all of these.

[Joanna Robinson]

And also I'm extremely mentally unwell.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's obviously, like, just undeniably very fraught with the character period. Like, of course. And certainly in the times we live in. Like, I often when I'm watching it, I'm like, oh, Frank, go. Like, I feel, like, pretty gross and weird about it. I think probably a lot of people do. I. You know, so, like, watching that sequence. There's that aspect of it. Of course. I thought that the action and the kind of rhythm of it and what you. What you're identifying of, like, you know, the. The masses bearing down on this one person who has to kind of like, charge back up and through them. Like, pretty fun to watch. And the way that Frank is such an undeniable. And I guess this is maybe the, like. Not that we needed the special to do this, but the most likely and handy. I think probably two things for Spider man. Just reminding people of, like, what Frank can do. Right. But also why Peter would find that unacceptable.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's not gonna do that in a Spider man movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

No way. There's just no way. And, you know, like, the idea of, like, would Spider man have. Have been in, like, a stinger for this? No. For various reasons. Right. Obviously. Like, the right chairs and everything, but, like, tonally, there's no way you're putting Spider man there anyway. You know, watching Frank move through and mow down the crowd, like, when he. At the donut shop counter, the. Like, it's horrifying, but you're like, I'm watching someone who is achieving a level of violent intent that is like, like.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Charlie's like, hey, I don't want a match.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. Charlie's like, I've got a flower for you. I don't know. You know, there were things inside of it, though, that, like, in addition to the effects that took me out of it were like the. The. The boy across the hall, their apartment. The bomb rolls in, and he, like, kicks it back across the way and then puts, you know, a shelving unit in front of the door for a little. A little cover. Yeah. But then goes and stands against the wall that definitely should have just exploded. He barged through Kool Aid man style, the door. I'm like, how is that wall standing? Things like that really bug me, and I kind of can't turn that part of my brain off. And that's my own personal challenge to bear as I watch stuff like this. But I don't know if the special was an excuse to just watch Frank kill people for 20 minutes and then watch him cry for 20 minutes. I don't, like, like, on principle. Hate it. It just, like, has to feel a little fresher to make sense here and now, you know. So do you think I could do the workout routine? Oh, the. The.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't think you do. I don't think you do. With the blood, you need more grip in order to do that pull up. I don't think you could have handled the friction of the blood.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Slippery. Slippery Lot of blood. Yeah, a lot of blood.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it. But in a more, like, Desmond, like, setting. I believe in you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Were you feeling it with Frank and Karen? Do you agree that they should be together, that their chemistry is undeniable?

[Joanna Robinson]

If it does you the gift of taking Karen away from Matt. Sure. I. I'm gonna end this whole. I'm wrap this up on a pausing note.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

And say this. Disney had their upfronts this week. That's right. They did. Like Tom Hiddleston, Robert Downey Jr. Paul Bettany. Came out on stage, did a little like, hey, you love us. We're in the mcu. They showed some Vision Quest stuff. I talked to some people who were there, whatever league gangbusters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God, I'm excited.

[Joanna Robinson]

People loved it. I've heard nothing but great things about it. I'm really, really excited for it. And so, I mean, this is something that in its ideal state, the MCU serves all kinds of fans. This is something we're about to talk about with Star Wars. Right. Like, the Punisher special doesn't have to be for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, that's okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, Agatha all along isn't for a lot of people, but it's for me. Right. You know, so, like, it can be that totally, you know, and so if Vision Quest is for me, if the WandaVision Agatha all along Vision Quest trilogy are like, for the Joanna MCU fans, great. And if there's a bunch of people who loved watching Jon Bernthal scream and cry and bleed and swear and nearly kill himself and then kill a lot of people, and they had a great time, great. I don't think it worked. But, you know, if it worked for some people, Live and let live, but also die if you're in Frank's way.

[Mallory Rubin]

I guess. Indeed. This episode is brought to you by Target. Time to talk about one of the most fun pieces from the Pokemon in Target 30th Celebration Collection. The mystery water type Pokemon bottles.

[Joanna Robinson]

Keyword mystery. Each bottle features a different water type Pokemon, but you don't know which one you've got until you open it.

[Mallory Rubin]

It which, if you're a Pokemon fan, should feel very familiar.

[Joanna Robinson]

We opened ours.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

I got Psyduck.

[Mallory Rubin]

I got Squirtle. So we're calling all trainers. If you want to see which Pokemon you can get, you can find them only at Target for a limited time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Explore [e-mail] this episode is brought to

[Mallory Rubin]

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[Mallory Rubin]

Well, let me ask you this. As we transition into building out Our list of 10 characters who should have specials, what makes sense in a special presentation in the mcu?

[Joanna Robinson]

Marvel call us dream casting future MCU specials. Okay, so first and foremost, let's just take a larger. Is this special present Marvel special presentation strategy working? I wouldn't call it a.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would you call it coherent strategy?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, because basically in 2022 we got a Halloween special, Werewolf by Night.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stellar.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't believe a long time ago,

[Joanna Robinson]

the best things I've ever seen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Same year, Christmas special, Guardians of the galaxy. So 2022, they're like, this is a thing we're doing.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Four years later. Jesus, Punisher.

[Mallory Rubin]

The same wait time between Ahsoka seasons one and two. That 2027 update hit me hard.

[Joanna Robinson]

But November for Rings of Power.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know, it really is our year.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's our year. So here's what I'll say about this special presentation. Non strategy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Werewolf by Night ruled.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought it was incredible. It's exactly what I want Marvel to be doing, which is even more. I feel like they put Gael in that special in a really brave way where he doesn't ever have to appear in the mc. He does not have to cross over. They made it in modern day so he could, but he doesn't have to cross over. And you know, it wasn't like a raging monster ratings hit. So I think they got scared of doing that more experimental stuff. But like, I think that's exactly what they should be doing, like picking these cool off kilter characters and you know, giving them a platform. And so Werewolf by Night, hugely successful Guardians of the Galaxy. Chris is special.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Honestly, just kind of fine. Yeah, I think fine. Punisher, I think a failure. That's three over four years. It's not a great track record. If it were me I would do more Werewolf by Night, but I am not in charge of the MCU for a reason.

[Mallory Rubin]

And you're also about to have Bullseye at number one.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's much more important than Werewolf by Night.

[Mallory Rubin]

It does not adhere to the shit on the Werewolf by Night template.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, Werewolf by Night is something that's completely outside of the exercise that we have here today, because we'll get into the rules. But like, Werewolf by Night is what can we pluck from the comic book pages that has, you know, like, can we do a.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Is that a better use for the special entirely than trying to say we're gonna give you a one hour with a character who we've used elsewhere in a different capacity, but want to, like, center spotlight some fiance in some way?

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, I do. I think it's like. And it's. And we talked about this at the time, like, I think it's a good tryout for a character. You know what I mean? Like, I would have loved to have seen more Werewolf by Night, but, like, apparently the larger audience, not enough people wanted to see that, so it didn't go. But, like, you know, these are essentially pilots. They can be pilots. Like, what if Moon Knight had been a one hour special instead of like a season and they would have learned what they needed to learn about Oscar Isaac and Moon Knight, you know, like, that sort of thing. And so I think it's like a really smart framework for this idea of auditioning new characters. That's just not how they used it ever. Ever since Werewolf by Night.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right, I agree. I think that makes a lot more sense. I think it's a good way to port characters in. I think there can be other characters who like, have appeared elsewhere and they are sort of either like redeployed or presented anew to the audience before then going back into the wider verse. A few of my nominees will fall into that kind of cluster.

[Joanna Robinson]

They've done that to a certain degree. Like when they put Darcy in Wandavision, you know what I mean? They've sort of tried to pluck some characters and put them in some of their Marvel TV shows. Sometimes really well, sometimes not as well. But that's something that they've done where they've identified a character that people really like and they're like, okay, how can we reuse them?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, for sure. And when there's like a. A canvas, an existing canvas, that makes a lot of sense to put a character like that into. That's a great way to do it. I found myself for that reason Thinking of a lot of characters where I had a harder time thinking where could we just plot them? Like, maybe they need their own little space to play. But I'm so curious to see if we have, like, any overlap in our list. Here are the rules. Shocked. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're about to do Brad Winterbaum's job for him and collaboratively pick 10 MCU characters or pairings. You could do a Mando and Grogu style. Like, you know, this is a twofer that should be tapped for their own special presentation. Next, here are the rules. Yes, it has to be an existent on screen character who appeared in the MCU in the past or a Marvel Netflix project, or a Marvel Sony project, or even a Marvel Fox project. So, like Kelsey Grammer's Beast, not just because he showed up in the Marvels, but like, just, you know, like of that era of X Men. You're allowed something in the Spidey verse. You're allowed Jessica Henwick's Colleen Wing. Why not? You know, Iron Fist. Not my fave, but I like Colleen Wing. So, you know, I'm thinking about it. So that's. They're allowed. This character does not have to be currently alive in Marvel continuity because resurrections happen all the time in Marvel and also prequels exist for a reason. So Maria Hill Kobe Smolders still on the table.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Neither of us picked her. All of the examples I picked were ones that I was pretty confident we did not actually pick as our real examples.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let me ask you this before we finish the rules. Just because we've. We've. You've named a few women, did you have a fairly familiar experience for. For us as we make Castlevar, where you made your list, and then you're like, I don't have a single woman on here.

[Joanna Robinson]

My second pick. My number one pick is Bullseye. Duh. My second pick was a woman.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Um, you cannot recast this character. You must use an actor who has already played the character. Right. Yeah. So we're not doing, you know, anyway. And then it would be nice if this character didn't have already have their own movie or show. Yeah. So, like, I'm not gonna, like, hold you hard and fast that rule, but like, the. The. The premise of the exercise is not we want to Steve Rogers special, it's we want to highlight a side character of some kind who we think, yes, we could take an hour and really do something fun with them for sure. So let's start at the bottom.

[Mallory Rubin]

Should we just pencil Bullseye in at number one? Let's, like, there's no reason not to. Right? We know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Agree with me.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do, actually. Yes. Bullseye is also number one on my list. And I think that we should just like everyone else is competing for spots two through 10, right? Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And what is. Is it like, the adventures of what. Whatever Bullseye's getting up to with Mr. Charles, or.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so. You know, we both really, I think, liked the idea, as we concluded Daredevil Born Again, season two of moving Bullseye into. Call them the New Avengers, call them the Thunderbolts, call them whatever the fuck you want. They're always working on their branding. You know, the connection between Mr. Charles and Bullseye sitting next to each other on the plane. He has now replaced Luke Cage as Charles's assassin. And Charles and Val have this connection.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's what I'm envisioning.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's one of my favorite scenes that has ever existed in a Marvel property, ever.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, exciting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which is Michael Fassbender as Magneto, Nazi hunter in that bar, just killing a bunch of people.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's Bullseye.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

And, like, we're hoping that Mr. Charles will deploy him to kill worse people. Like, when I could cheer for him killing the Anti Vangelante task. Like, I could, like, enjoy his various flung implements, you know, fighting brain matter. So find me some, you know, some Nazis or some equal, like, equally horrible people around the globe for my guy Dex, to kill creatively with various objects. A CD, whatever he wants.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do like when he uses CDs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's great.

[Mallory Rubin]

How many banana milkshakes would you like to see him consume?

[Joanna Robinson]

Zero.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. But you would like him across the globe to make some. Some eggs for various cats that he eats all the cats? Yeah. I think that should be the connective tissue between every. Every cat. I think he should go to, like, feeds a cat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Eastern Europe. There's a lot of cats. That's right in the streets and Eastern.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's get him to Santorini. Yeah, let's get him to. To Istanbul. Fantastic. Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

I said start at the bottom, but, like, actually, I think we should start at the top because I don't want any of our, like, major.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, like, who.

[Mallory Rubin]

And we can sub someone out at the end if we realize we've made an error.

[Joanna Robinson]

But who would you want at number two?

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so Bullseye was the easy number one. Yeah. I surprised myself a little by having. And I actually was like, this is. This is my number two. Then it's kind of pretty Open from there. I don't think you're going to agree.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm ready.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I'm happy to put this character at, like, number 10. Doesn't have to be high on the list, but I actually think this makes sense because this has been one of the all time. What did a kid say? Fumbled the bag. Like, just kind of like, everybody waited. We anticipated, and then that was how we got Mephisto. Let's reset Mephisto.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I actually thought that seeing Mephisto in Ironheart was like. Like fun. It was just too little, too late. And not enough people. Flat out, not enough people watching. Like, there are people who are like, wait, they finally entered Mephisto into the mcu and, like, don't know, after spending more than a decade saying, when are they going to bring Mephisto into the mcu? Which is, like, very sad. So let's get Sacha Barra Cohen back as Mephisto, do a one hour special, and then put Mephisto wherever we want. We're going to do some Midnight Suns that might be coming up again with some of my other nominations. Ooh, fun. Or whatever we want to do with Mephisto, but we need to, like, center Mephisto in a way that, like, really invites everybody to say, sit down for an hour. Mephisto's here. You can't miss it. And then we can do whatever we want. Feel like this is the right way to get Mephisto in front of audiences.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do you think?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm. I'm into it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll let you have it. Number two. All right, here's my number two, which can be number three if you want. Two all time incredible characters, bring them back together. It's Madison and Wong.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have this on my list too.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, but not when you think Madison. What are they doing? I think. Here's what I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think Wong is just trying to do his Sorcerer supreme job, and Madison is just like. It's like a day in the life.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. Yes. Because this was exactly what I was gonna pitch. Because this way, like, I don't really know what's going on with Strange Academy. Is Strange Academy happening somehow?

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it active?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it snowing in there?

[Mallory Rubin]

Possibly. So, like, if we're gonna do at some point, I still like the idea of spending more time in, like, the tutelage of young sorcerers. Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

But this idea of Madison as this ongoing interloper in Wong's life and their, like, unlikely spark And Bond and the high comedy of it. Do it in a way where all of this stuff is playing out in the backdrop in a way that does not in any fashion preclude exploring something like Strange Academy further in its own little miniseries at some point.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's put them at number two. Mephisto, you're down to three.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Watch him get bumped all the way to the bottom. Mephisto, you're back in iron.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was. I gotta say, this was the one I was most confident we would both have.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, what's. What do you think should be number four? That's what I'm saying. I had a woman at number two. Madison. Yeah, the icon.

[Mallory Rubin]

She ruled. Let's see. I would like to throw out next. Dog pool.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tell me. Tell me your pitch. And I don't. Number four.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, not necessarily. Not necessarily number four. Tell me your Dogpool can end up as an honorable mentor.

[Joanna Robinson]

Give me your elevator pitch for Dogpool.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so Deadpool and Wolverine legend. You know, one of the most undeniable instant stars in our recent cinematic experience. Mary Poppins. Some might prefer. Careful where you put your hand. She's 90% G spotted. She'll let you know it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Iconic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nice pool's pet, then. Nice pool's gone. What's going to happen to Dogpole? Ends up with Wade. How sweet. How wonderful. Well, what happened next? What's. Talk about a day in the life. What's a day in the life for Dogpool? That's really it. I have no thoughts beyond that. I just think a dog's life, honestly, I think people would love it and it would be great. And, like, you could have Deadpool in the background. You could have Deadpool doing Deadpool stuff. But we'd only be like.

[Joanna Robinson]

We would be following dog. We're like knee height.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exact. For the whole thing. Yeah, it's all Jessica Jones. Exactly. Muppa babies. It's all just Jessica Jones through the, you know, the backdrop of her house. But we don't see it's her until later.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm putting dog pool at 10. At 10.

[Mallory Rubin]

And could be bumped.

[Joanna Robinson]

Parentheses. Muppet Babies. Okay, great.

[Mallory Rubin]

I just really think there's something here. I do. And it feels like we should have an animal on the list. Okay. Did I have an animal on the list before? A woman? I did, but I knew the whole time that Long and Madison were gonna be there, so.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, who's next for you?

[Joanna Robinson]

And this is a gift for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I'm excited. Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

As much as it is a gift for Me. Oh, it just reminded me of a present that I have meant to give you for, like, over a year now, I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is it?

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's. Well, I'm not gonna tell you, but I love presents. I know Aubrey Plaza as Lady Death slash Rio Vidal. Right. And I'm thinking of something like the Sound of her Wings episode of Sandman. Right. Where we follow Death as she, like, takes. Takes people away, except it's like the snarkier. Yeah, like, hotter, gayer, snarkier. All of that, obviously.

[Mallory Rubin]

Obviously. In.

[Joanna Robinson]

So just, like, how does this Death work? And what is her attitude towards the way in which she collects her various prizes?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think this is fantastic. And, like, what is consistent interaction to interaction? How does the tone shift? When do we get those? How does she appear?

[Joanna Robinson]

Does she, like. In what guys? Does she appear? You know, So I.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is a great one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Number four.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Aubrey Plaza being hot is the premise. And definitely. Okay, guess what? We have two women and a dog on this list.

[Mallory Rubin]

Look at us.

[Joanna Robinson]

Number five. What do you. What do you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, I'm gonna throw out. Hmm. So I have kind of. So I. I don't want the list to be. I do think that we're like. We need some Midnight Suns action in our lives in the mcu. So I have two contenders on this front in addition to. Obviously, there's some Mephisto possibilities there as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mephisto, to be clear, is still a

[Mallory Rubin]

number three, and I might remain there. Okay, so, like, do we want to. And kind of, in a way, ish. Three of our 10 to have some sort of Midnight Sun's tie. That might not be, like, logical, though, to the, like, broader point about doing stuff in these special presentations that could unlock something in the future, but doesn't necessarily stem from something in the past on screen here. Here on screen elsewhere. Yes. Maybe this is the right way to start doing this, to start bringing us into the Midnight Suns era. I'm gonna throw out two. You can pick one. Neither or both.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ghost Rider. Obviously, everyone wants a Ghost Rider movie, so maybe it's just, like, more logical.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cause which actor?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I think until they officially cast Gosling as the new Ghost Rider, we gotta bring Nic Cage back right there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wasn't there Ghost Rider in agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[Mallory Rubin]

we got. Yeah, but, like, we gotta bring it Cage back. I mean, he's in the spider noir era. He's here having genre fun. Let's bring Nick Cage back. He would just be, like, batshit for 44 minutes as Ghost Rider in the

[Joanna Robinson]

MC can you imagine Ghost Rider?

[Mallory Rubin]

You said earlier it's Jon Berenthal Summer. What it really is right now is Kit Harington season. Is this how we do Black Knight Dane?

[Joanna Robinson]

Is this how we do Dane Whitman? I. I have my list and I have my nose. And Dana's on my nose.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let me tell you, I respect this choice. I thought it might go this way. It's why I presented two at once.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are these special presentations a way to. To avoid the complete and total erasure. Eternals. Erasure. I will.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will tell you. I. No, I have an eternals option on here. Druig and Makkari.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I like that.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Adventures of Druig and Makari.

[Mallory Rubin]

That would be nice. A romance. Little rom com. Yeah, I'm into it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. My beautiful Makari. Come on.

[Mallory Rubin]

That would be great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You didn't want to bring Harry Styles back?

[Joanna Robinson]

I did ask our friend Rob Mahoney, and his first suggestion was Harry Styles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then I said, what about Charlize? Like, all the dangling threads. Oh, Charlize is on your list.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think Clea is at least worth talking about.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's at least worth talking.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's wrap up your Midnight Suns pitch. You had Nick Cage as ghostwriter. You had Dane Whitman vetoed as Kid Arrington.

[Mallory Rubin]

Come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's it? Those are your two options? I'll give you a Ghost Rider before I'll give you Dane Web.

[Mallory Rubin]

But should Ghost Rider just be a movie? Should we hold out for the full movie? Like, is this the one?

[Joanna Robinson]

They're going to recast it. So it's just. If you want to watch Nick Cage,

[Mallory Rubin]

Ghost Rider, and then elsewhere in the multiverse, Gosling can ride in.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, something to think about.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, we can put Ghost Rider on for now, and then we can.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, that's right, it was Gabrielle. Luna was Ghost Rider for Agency Shield.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so you're leaving them off?

[Mallory Rubin]

Off. Let's put it at nine for now and then see what happens.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so dog pool number 10, ghostwriter number 9. Do you want to do druiga makari number 5?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm into that. I like that. I also. I did. Harry Styles was actually really one of the first things that I thought of as well. But, like, it just seems, I guess, like, unlikely. Impossible. Harry's got a lot going on, including marrying Zoe Kravitz, the most beautiful person who's ever lived.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have you ever been more jealous of Harry Styles? Yourself, herself?

[Mallory Rubin]

Probably not.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, geez, what is your babe. What A beautiful couple. My goodness.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so we have number right now, Bullseye number one, Madison Wong number two. I feel really good about our one and two.

[Mallory Rubin]

Me too.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mephisto number three.

[Mallory Rubin]

I honestly think, I honestly think it's a strong top five right now.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lady Death, Aubrey Plaza being hot. Number four.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Druig and Makari, number five.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think this is good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Number six.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Well, what do you have next? What's, what's, what else is cooking?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Talking about fumbling. Okay. They fumbled the bag on this, but then they sort of, like, actually went and picked up the bag. Okay. I'm talking about bringing Evan Peters into the mcu, right. So there's a couple options here. Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do we want to bring in, actually Quicksilver? Because I loved Evan Peters's Quicksilver.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same. And you know how I feel about the Ultron Pietro fiasco.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Mallory Rubin]

Athletia. Come on. On.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stay in your lane. It's not the MCU.

[Mallory Rubin]

Craven.

[Joanna Robinson]

When's Craven2 happening?

[Mallory Rubin]

Hashtag Make Craven2 every day. Okay. I did recently, my phone. You know how iPhones serve you memories? I got one of the, like, all of the poses in front of the shirtless Craven. Do you think you have.

[Joanna Robinson]

After I emailed you 100 photos of you with Harrison Ford, do you think you have more photos of on your phone of you with Harrison Ford or you with various Craven posters? Standees?

[Mallory Rubin]

It honestly, probably pretty close.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so Evan Peters as Quicksilver or as Ralph Boner? Now, like I'm saying in Agatha all along, they really did, like, close the loop on Ralph Boner in a way that you and I both really enjoyed.

[Mallory Rubin]

Loved it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Boner, family reunion, pitch attendant. It was really good. That being said, I really want Evan Peters as Quicksilver. Like, that's, I think that would be really fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

I, I, I would be thrilled. Would that then connect to the impending X Men movies in some way, you think? Or would it feel like it just stood on its own?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't want any of these to connect to anything. To connect to anything.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I think just fun, like Quicksilver, to me, scratches that same itch that Bullseye does where I just really enjoy those sequences. Like, I love watching Bullseye, like, hurl things in a fun, creative way and kill people. And I love watching Quicksilver run around while everyone else is slow mo around him. Do we have to worry that the VFX will look the way that John Bernthal looked when he fell in the truck?

[Mallory Rubin]

Great question.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you don't have the budget to do it. Mcu don't do this Quicksilver idea. But I think it would be great.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm in favor of it. I think it would be super fun. He's always a delight. I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Quicksilver. Evan Peters. Not you. Aaron Taylor.

[Mallory Rubin]

We do have, like, multiple picks from the WandaVision. Agatha verse. Unsurprising. Unsurprising.

[Joanna Robinson]

Odd. How odd? What a crazy, random circumstance. All right, what do you have?

[Mallory Rubin]

So while we're on X Men characters, I can't decide if I think this is a good idea or not. I mean, I think doing something with this character is a good idea. I can't decide if this is the right pitch. Pitch x23 they talked for a long. There are a lot of James Mangold quotes out there about, oh, we wanna do a movie. We wanna call it Lara. We wanna get back to this character. Bring Daphne Keen back. We both love Logan. It's love what I. Of our favorite superhero films. Fantastic. I would happily just wait for. If they want to make a movie, Lara, like, let's just fucking do that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

If that is actually anywhere out in the ether as a viable option. So let's just do that. But if not, I would love to get Daphne Keane back. She was 23.

[Joanna Robinson]

She was really fun in Deadpool and Wolverine. Like. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So let's like, spotlight X23 in an hour or 44 minutes, whatever. I don't know what the runtime on these puppies has to be. And that's just fills up.

[Joanna Robinson]

What is she doing? What do you think she's doing?

[Mallory Rubin]

Killing people. Yeah, some fun. Like, you know, I've got your. Your neck in between my thighs and I've killed you. Choked you.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like it should be a Like. Like the western trope of like, maybe she's some. Somewhere that's dusty and she's trying. She's come to town and she's trying to, like, live a normal life. Yeah. But trouble finds her and she has to defend the town.

[Mallory Rubin]

Perfect. Perfect.

[Joanna Robinson]

But she can't stay because trouble is always on her heels.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which town? Which dusty town?

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, Knowersville, Nevada or something like that. Or we could be in Mexico. Why not? I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think this sounds great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anyone else? That we only have one slot left because you have Ghost Rider and Dog Pool here at the bottom.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure do. All right, I'll throw out a few nominees. Let me know if any tickle your fancy and then I want to hear the Other contenders for you. So we mentioned already. But. But do you think that would Charlize Theron come and do Clea as a special presentation? Because it's 44 minutes. I mean, this is just one of the. I would say even more so than Harry Styles at the end of Eternals. This is just like an all time. Like we had Charlize here to do a Stinger at the end of Multiverse of Madness and then did nothing with it. And also like Dark Dimension Sorceress Dormammu Tie is just like kind of rad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Dormammu. Dormammu.

[Mallory Rubin]

I've come to bargain. This is great. You know, it's the best. So I don't know, it feels really disappointing to never go back to that. Maybe we will in some other capacity. So that's a contender. You know, you mentioned Moon Knight earlier and like, I don't know, I never say no to Ethan Hawke. Should we do a little Arthur Harrow special?

[Joanna Robinson]

A little more glass. That's all I can think of.

[Mallory Rubin]

I still feel like I left that unfulfilled. As many did. Obviously. There were some real, real highs at the beginning of moonlight, the beginning of Moon Knight, and then like, especially I think with the Arthur Harrow character and the like, the finale just was like, this is what we're getting out of this. So I'd like a little bit of a redo there. And Ethan Hawke is the best always. So that's a contender. And then I think the Internet would want us to say, they would not want us to conclude this exercise without saying three words. Howard the Duck, Seth Green. Come on in.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not what I thought you were gonna say.

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel like anytime someone's like, what should they do for like one of these little spies? It's like Howard the Duck.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

But maybe that's an insight into my social media.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know your duck based algorithm.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then, you know, I hate Thunderbolt Ross, but obviously Harrison Ford.

[Joanna Robinson]

Red Hulk, Harrison Ford, new friend of the Pod. It's front of the Pod month we met Harrison Ford. I think that means he's now a friend of the Pod.

[Mallory Rubin]

I quite agree.

[Joanna Robinson]

And does he wear the kilt as Thunderbolt Ross, do you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, in some ways it would be more logical than anything else.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know that happened.

[Mallory Rubin]

Room to expand. Room to expand. So those are some contenders. Who else is on on your short list here?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, Lady Sif. I'm still unsatisfied with.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can see this as well been

[Joanna Robinson]

done with Lady Sif. And not that I have Like a banger idea. But I just. Just feel like we never quite got there with her, so. And speaking of the Thor larger universe, the Grandmaster, Jeff Goldblum, like, that's a great one. Really fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

That would be a fun special.

[Joanna Robinson]

What if. What if Lady Sif winds up, you know, in. In the gladiatorial games and the grandmaster's there.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. A grandmaster one would be super fun. I really like that. He was a riot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Julia Garner, Silver Surfer. Again, I don't have a great pitch for it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought about as well. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I loved her so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, she was wonderful. Yeah, she was wonderful. Now, is she better than Dogpole, though?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Was she better than Dogpool?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think so. But again, I'm not sure that I want to watch the, like, Marvel's special presentation budget version of Silver Surfer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nebula and Rocket, a great pairing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't want it. I. Would James Gunn do it? No. So I don't want anyone to do it. Got it. Yeah. Though I miss Rocket. I do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Zhu Wenwu from Chongqing. Tony Leung.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah. I thought about this as well. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, just being a gangster.

[Mallory Rubin]

Too long of a wait for a return. Like, what's. This is, man.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thought we were gonna get a lot right away after Shang Chi. That would be great. I would really like that one as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

Aunt May prequel. But there's, like. I can't think of, like, a super

[Mallory Rubin]

shopping for hot jeans.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Aunt May takes us shopping for jeans and vintage frames and gives us hair care tips.

[Mallory Rubin]

Goes on a couple dates with Happy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And then a Yondu prequel is also. But again, maybe perhaps you're like, if James Gunn's not involved, I'm not interested. Would any of those. But he wasn't your dad. Would any of those take over for Ghost Rider or Dogpool for you?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'd probably be, believe it or not, more likely to sub out Ghost Rider, because I do think a Ghost Rider movie feels like an inevitability. So I'm content to wait for that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dogpool's not getting a movie. Or is she? That would be great. So, I don't know. I like a lot of those that you just threw out. Hmm.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hmm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's eliminate the two that would require James Gunn.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

So what does that leave us with? How many contenders there? Three, four,

[Joanna Robinson]

I think I just deleted. Hold on.

[Mallory Rubin]

Grandmaster and.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, Lady Sif. Lady Sif and Grandmaster.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Zoo and Wu.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or Silver Surfer.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree with you on the. The special effects concerns, too. Worrying. So should we put both of the others in and knock off two here or just one?

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's put one in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so let's get. Do we want to get rid of Ghost Rider or Clea?

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's get rid of Ghost Rider and let's replace him with Zu Wenwu. That's what I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great. Let's do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so here's our list. And Marvel's like, wow, we're printing money with these. And I agree. Number 10, dogpool in a sort of Muppet Babies esque. Knees down only. You know, adventure through the world. And like. Like funny violent like Deadpool esque. Shenanigans are happening around him. But he's just a dog.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like Rosencrantz and Gild, but with dog pool. Yeah. Theater of the absurd through the eyes and lolling hanging tongue.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tom Stopper brings you Dog pool would watch. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I honestly think that's a great idea. I do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Number nine, Zoo Wenwu is just Tony Leung being hot and a gangster.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have no notes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Genuinely. Great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Number eight, Clea Charlize. What is she doing? Being hot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Door Mamu. I'm going to bargain.

[Joanna Robinson]

Number 7, Laura x23 yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Your pitch was perfect.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Perfect. I'm gonna try to go be a normal young person in this. Like I'm go to Dylan, Texas.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. It's Friday night. The Panthers are playing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're playing the Tigers. What's gonna happen? Number six, Quicksilver Evan Peters. What's he doing? Being real fast. Number five, Drew again. Makari A Rom com space Rom romp.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. Number four, Lady Death. Aubrey Plaza. Being hot and killing people.

[Mallory Rubin]

No notes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. Number three, Mephisto.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's try it again. He's here. Yeah, he's here. We promise.

[Joanna Robinson]

Number two, Madison and Wong. A day in the life of the Sorcerer Supreme. Sorcerers in training, et cetera, et cetera. But Madison keeps getting in the way. And it ends with a.

[Mallory Rubin]

Think of how many Ben and Jerry's pint flavored jokes they can make. You know, like, what does a tuna sandwich cost? All of it's going to be incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Perfect. Number one one. And this is a theme. Bullseye. Being hot and killing people.

[Mallory Rubin]

I gotta tell you, this list is great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's great too.

[Mallory Rubin]

This list is great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Call us. We're available.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh man.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's it. That's us talking about the Punisher special. But mostly just making this list because it was fun to do.

[Mallory Rubin]

I enjoyed it.

[Joanna Robinson]

If we missed any ideas, hobbits and dragons gmail.com we would love to hear them or you can sort of like leave them in the comments in the social somewhere something like that we'd love to hear who you which MCU characters

[Mallory Rubin]

you think deserve a graphic together and then people can drop the comments and not say you fucking idiots you forgot X but just say I'd also like to see this but you could also

[Joanna Robinson]

say you fucking idiots I'll take hate engagement I'll take any and all engagement it's true but be nice your hate fuels me thank you to Mallory Rubin thanks to you thanks to Harrison Ford

[Mallory Rubin]

yeah thank you thanks Harrison thanks to

[Joanna Robinson]

Scotland thanks to whiskey thank you to Carlos Chiroga to our gener Scott Lee Jomy at dinneron Jacob Cornette squad will be back soon.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean for us in two hours. For everyone else in in mere moments for us.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, two days with another Nolan installment It's a biggie we're doing the Dark

[Mallory Rubin]

Knight Dark Knight baby.

[Joanna Robinson]

With a friend of the pod.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

See you then by. It.