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Joanna
Foreign.
Mallory
And welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. May the fourth be with you.
Joanna
May the fourth be with you. And also with you.
Mallory
Oh my goodness. We're recording a Star wars pod on May the fourth and that's just fun.
Joanna
That's very special for us.
Mallory
That's just a fun thing we get to do. You know what else is fun? We got to talk to Sam fucking Witwer. We really did call himself.
Joanna
We really did.
Mallory
About season one of Maul shadowlord. The very action packed and eventful finale. And Maul as a character who we have adored for eons on end and will for eons on end from here. We're going to explain the pod right after this. This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Call it all trainers. The Pokemon in target collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon is almost here and the lineup is kind of incredible. A few are sure to be fan
Joanna
faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles, and even caboodles.
Mallory
Which feels perfect because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure and Target is bringing fans together to celebrate that spirit.
Joanna
The first drop is in store May
Mallory
2 online May 3 with the second drop June 6.
Joanna
Explore now@target.com the playoffs are here and
Sam Witwer
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Mallory
Here's what we're going to do. We're going to talk a little bit at the top. Just about our overall impressions of the season. Some highlights, some big events and happenings.
Joanna
Spoiler warning.
Mallory
Spoiler warning starts now.
Joanna
They dropped the episodes. Midnight early drop. Early drop.
Mallory
So here we are. I'm like fresh off an airplane basically.
Joanna
Yeah.
Mallory
But we were not going to let a minute pass right before talking about this finale because a ton happened.
Joanna
Gleam in Mallory's eyes is jet lag. So here we are.
Mallory
Exactly. Usually it's just mania. Now it's mania and jet lag. We're going to just talk for a little bit at the top and then we're going to get to our interview with Sam because we were treated to a really long, wonderful chat with Sam who Is unsurprisingly, a delightful hang and just so thoughtful about a character who he has inhabited and embodied for more than a decade. So it was a wonderful chat. We talked about some things that happened in the finale, but also just like, what is it like to play Maul? How does he inhabit that headspace? Where's the character going in the future? Why was this moment of the timeline so crucial to explore? We had a great time. We got into the Apple Wars a little bit. It was wonderful.
Joanna
A lot bit.
Mallory
Here's what is coming. Not just today, but but the rest of the month also. Again, it's like the morning of May 4th. So if there's other Star wars news later today, we're gonna talk about it Thursday when we're back. We'll get to it. We're like, let's get to the studio this morning. We will be talking about the Daredevil born Again Season 2 finale later this week, which neither of us have seen.
Joanna
No, I have. You're still mourning Daniel Blake. It's like so sad still.
Mallory
So I'm excited to be back and chatting with you about that at the end of the week.
Joanna
And then you have now seen shirtless Buck Cashman.
Sam Witwer
Yeah.
Mallory
You sent me some important text messages
Joanna
and performance of American Psycho.
Mallory
Deeply captivating. I care about you. Deeply captivating. It's Friend of the Pod month. So we are hoping throughout the month to sprinkle in guests. And you say that it's a thing.
Joanna
We've decided to make May. We've decided to make it a Friend of the Pod month. We're starting with Sam Witmer, our best friend who is here, longtime friend of the Pod.
Mallory
We have considered him a friend of the POD for some time.
Joanna
He didn't know, but now he knows. Friend of the Pod Sam Whitman were. And we have a bunch of other pals that, that are planning to drop by this month.
Mallory
We'll tease them as they get a little closer and we're more confident that each of them is happening. It's going to be, it's going to be a great hang here on this big couch. We have, you know, we've got more pillows. We got to put them to use. So that's all coming throughout the month, obviously. We now have a House of the Dragon date for June. We know some big movie dates. We've got an action packed summer ahead of us, including Lestat. Give us the update.
Joanna
34 days until the vampire Lestat premieres. 29 days until the recently announced Lestat live concert that they're doing one night only.
Mallory
One night only is almost. I mean, it's great. You eventize it, you know, you create the fomo. It's smart. Is it almost cruel?
Joanna
It is. And it's cruel for it to only be in New York City. But my understanding is that tickets are actually, like, free for fans and that May 6th is when they'll be released. So there's gonna be a stampede to the old, I don't know, amc.com or whatever. I don't work for them. I don't know what their URL is, but I understand the tickets are free, which is cool. They're not charging fans to do this. They're gonna screen the premiere, and then Sam Reid's gonna do some songs.
Mallory
Just incredible. Incredible. To quote you via text, Primal Scream.
Joanna
Yeah, Primal Scream.
Mallory
Joanna. How can everybody follow along?
Joanna
What a great question.
Mallory
Tell me.
Joanna
We have our very own social handles on Instagram, TikTok at House of our pod. Did we make Sam Whitmore do some bits for the social only? Yes. So if you would like to see Sam be charming as all fuck on both this episode, but also follow our handles on Instagram and TikTok, you can follow. You can subscribe to the podcast. Why not? What a great idea.
Mallory
I'd recommend it.
Joanna
Yeah, we got a lot coming up. Why not? Why not do it? Friend of the Pod month. And listen, follow Ringerverse also on a number of social media platforms of their choice. And then hobbitsanddragonsmail.com keep the emails coming, man. Yeah, we'd love to hear from you.
Mallory
Inbox is always open.
Joanna
Yeah, we hear from you guys aplenty. Someone invited us to their wedding, and then I got a, like, reminder that we were invited to their wedding. We won't be going, but we really appreciate the invite, so thank you so much.
Mallory
Consider your wedding blessed by our.
Joanna
I just. I got the reminder email. I was like, oh, my God. Who's like. Because I have a goldfish brain. I was like, whose wedding is this? And I was like, all right, the listeners, thank you so much for the invite. Uh, we hope your wedding's amazing.
Mallory
Should we just, like, improv some vows right now? Um, you do a haiku like Coach would.
Joanna
Wow.
Mallory
Yeah.
Joanna
Will you give me a betrothal nickname?
Mallory
It's Wolf of Quiet Pines, which is the nickname he gave Riley. Is just historic stuff. Alzheimer's all timer. It's hard to top. I think everyone else has to retire from the nickname game.
Joanna
That's a good, like, subtle. Friend of the Pod month. Teaser. Just saying.
Mallory
People are gonna think it's coach.
Joanna
It's not Coach.
Mallory
Can you imagine? That would be incredible.
Joanna
What if we. I know that like your longtime pod nickname has been Mother of Dragon. Mallory has been Mother of Dragons.
Mallory
That's right.
Joanna
What if we change it to Mother of Preston? Does that. Is that as regal as well?
Mallory
Where's Preston today?
Joanna
There he is.
Mallory
I'm afraid he's gonna catch fire, but I've been assured that that's not a concern. And it's both because of, you know, he's on a phoenix, but also just in general his proximity to a light bulb. In a fair.
Joanna
If Preston caught fire and wound up being kind of like burnt and scabbed, doesn't that seem like in keeping with who Preston is?
Mallory
It does. And also you'd be able to see that on HouseOfArpod, on Instagram and TikTok.
Joanna
So again, follow along YouTube, Spotify video
Mallory
pods, full video episodes of House of R. Once more we will just issue our spoiler warning. We're talking about everything that happened in all of season one of Star Wars. Colon, Colon, Mal, Shadowlord, Shadow Lord. We're gonna get into what happened in the two part finale episodes nine and ten, which dropped overnight this morning. They're fresh, they're, they're short, you know, 25 minutes each. Ish. So if you haven't yet seen them, hit pause, go watch them. Within an hour, you'll be back. If it happened in the finale, if it happened in the first season and just to be clear, like if it has ever happened to mall including in the past of our actual lives of consuming but in the future of the canon timeline, like some stuff that's in Rebels we did talk about with Sam could come up, et cetera. If it's happened in Star wars ever, you've been warned.
Joanna
We know how he dies.
Mallory
Great episode and so should you. Any other spoiler warnings, programming reminders, announcements, set deck observations, anything else?
Joanna
I'm just really excited for Friend of the Pod month. Like we've got a lot of same fun.
Mallory
If you would like to be our friend, if you are our friend and you'd like to come on the pot, let us know.
Joanna
We do have a few spots open. We do have a couple spots.
Mallory
We do have a couple spots.
Joanna
We, we got a lot of messages about this. I will say, did we try to get Wilson Bethel on the pod for Thursday?
Mallory
We did. I haven't given up hope yet.
Joanna
It did not work out. But like everyone's like my favorite tweet That I saw once we announced that Sam Witward was on the podcast.
Mallory
Yeah.
Joanna
Was someone on Twitter posted a photo of me with Timothy Oliphant and me with Sam Witworth. Like, Joanna's out here collecting infinity stones. Like Wilson Bethel next. Well, Wilson Bethel.
Mallory
Who knows what will happen?
Joanna
Declined the honor. But we will have other friends.
Mallory
Scheduling conflicts.
Joanna
Yeah.
Mallory
Could those scheduling conflicts still vanish? We have three days until we're recording that podcast, so I've not given up.
Joanna
Call your local lawmaker.
Mallory
Make it known that you demand to see your governor on House of R. Yeah, yeah.
Joanna
Make it happen.
Mallory
Seems like a good use of everybody's.
Joanna
I think so. There's nothing else going on politically that I need to worry about. Getting Bullseye in the pot is very important. I mean, right here, the pillow's a weight.
Mallory
Should we just, like, put Bullseyes? Carlos, can you. No. Can you get a.
Joanna
Can we.
Mallory
Who's really great at graphic design. Let's get a Bullseye right now.
Joanna
I think it's a little surprising given the number of, like, cardboard cutout standees people have sent to me over the years. Including you. I have sent it to you. I think it's a little surprising that no one has sent me a Bullseye card. Should we get one? He. He can just be. He can be, like, carefully fold creased in half.
Mallory
Answer honestly. What would you. Because the cardboard catat. It's a. It's a moment in time that's frozen forever in cardboard. Do you want the Bullseye cardboard cutout to be him? Change shirtless to bed?
Joanna
No, that's. That's too intimate for everyday use, I say.
Mallory
Or is it just intimate enough?
Joanna
I say it's, like, in his. Like, I'm getting a milkshake, and I'm going to kill a bunch of people. Get up. That's. That's the vibe. I'm feeding an egg to a cat sort of episode.
Mallory
Feeding an egg to a cat was wonderful. You constantly want to be reminded of the banana milkshake that you found appalling and I thought sounded delicious.
Joanna
I want to be reminded of a man who takes action against the criminals who are running around the city, AKA the avtf.
Mallory
Great stuff. Well, speaking of a man who takes action, it is time to talk about our beloved mall. We're gonna get to the opening snapshot. Okay, again, since we have this wonderful chat with Sam, we're going to keep it quick today. We're not going, like, beat by beat. We're not doing a deep dive, but we're going to hit Some. Some highlights. Let's just start with, like, overall impressions. We were very excited for the show. Did season one meet the hype? How did you feel about season one of Shadowlord?
Joanna
Yeah, I mean, I think. I think fundamentally, actually, our conversation with Sam, like, really enhanced my enjoyment of the season because Sam is so thoughtful in the way that he talks about Maul and the way he talks about the way what stories they want to tell, what aspects of his character. He gave some, like, rewatching these after we talked to him. Rewatching these episodes with his words in my mind really, really deepened my. My love and affection for them. I think it's an undeniably beautiful. There are some shots in the finale. You know, we. We end with sort of, like, close up Amal's face and just those, like, very, like, brushwork style of animation around. You know, it just looks painted and beautiful. So I think that's incredible. You know, the last two episodes were essentially like, two long fight scenes. And, you know, in Star wars, and Sam talks about this a bit, but, like, in Star Wars, a lot of storytelling happens inside of a lightsaber duel.
Mallory
Absolutely.
Joanna
It's like a dance number in a musical. Like, you can do a lot of storytelling inside of. Of a lightsaber duel, but it's still, like, I would have loved even more sort of monologues or, you know, people talking in rooms and stuff like that to. To underpin some of the action. I think the action looked incredible throughout this season. I think I would have liked to have known Maul's crew a bit more. You know, like, we. We mourn Spy Bot. We're, like, really upset that Spy Bot is gone, but, like, his entire crew got wiped out. And I didn't really feel like I. I knew them very well before they're gone. And then we're gonna talk about the Inquisitors. The Inquisitors look incredibly cool, but, like, are still kind of ciphers at the end of the day. So, like, action, incredible style, incredible. Some of the themes and especially what Sam talks about. Really, really thoughtful and cool. But I guess what I want for season even and deeper and get into more of the philosophy, I could just listen to Mal talk all day long. So that's how I feel about it. How about you?
Mallory
I loved it. I mean, I'm such a fan of the Star wars animated shows and often genuinely do think they're Star wars at its best. And I think my feelings about Rebels and Clone wars are long established house of Our canon at this point, but Bad Batch and the Tales of Blank series recently. And, I mean, like, the. The Lego rebuild the galaxy thing is just. That's a completely different, you know, aspect of Star wars storytelling, but just the ability to really express some of the visions, like express something really creative and visually arresting, and then use these animated series as an opportunity to open up our understanding of a character in a new moment of the timeline that connects to another point in the timeline. I just really, like, love these shows, so I thought this was really great. I'm excited to spend more time with Maul. I It. Your points just now. Rook and Icarus and the commandos in general. 11th brother are the. Like, I can't believe Mar is back. Just astonishing stuff. I think that given, you know, how much. And we talked about this at the beginning of the season, we talked about this a little bit with Sam. There was a real, I think, a wise and important effort to say at the beginning of this show, you don't need to feel like you have to do a ton of homework and watch a bazillion hours of these other shows in order to hang in order to follow this. It'll be very inviting and very friendly if you just want to opt in. And I think that's true if you have other experiences with Rook and the Mandalorian stretch for Maul and the Commandos and who those characters are or thinking about, like, the future of 11th Brother and Maruk. I don't know that it makes it the most riveting part of Shadowlord, but it's probably, like, slightly more intriguing.
Joanna
But I think.
Mallory
No, I know you do. Yeah, of course. But I think in actually, in some ways, maybe it made it a little bit less impactful, counterintuitively, because with the Inquisitors in particular, I don't think we've talked about this a lot. That Star wars deaths are the. Or any death in any story is the only way to establish stakes. That's not how I feel about it. That's not how we feel about it. However, knowing definitively, definitively that 11th brother is making it out of those fights, that Maruk is making it out of those fights, it's, I think, ever so slightly diminished, the tension of, like, whether those characters are gonna be okay now. It's interesting to think about, like, as Ahsoka fans, the fact that those characters are both, in different ways, on a collision course toward showdowns with Ahsoka, that Maul has this history with Ahsoka, that's where I think the wider web of connections is, like, interesting for Me. But in general, I think the Inquisitors, you know, mostly like outside of Rebels and some comics canon, they're like. Like, they look incredible. They look incredible.
Joanna
I. Yeah, but it's real Knights of Ren stuff where I'm like, this looks great. But like, when you think about. And you know, obviously we're gonna talk about Vader a bunch in a second. And there's just so much around Vader as just a piece of iconography that you can never say, like, Vader's presence feels at all thin. Like, that's not something that's possible with a Vader. But I was thinking a lot in the way this is set up, maybe just cause there were so many lightsabers flying around. I was thinking of the episode of Acolyte, a show we didn't like entirety of, but that episode night that we thought was so incredible. And I was just thinking about Chimere the Stranger and like all the other characters and. And even though that show didn't successfully like deepen every single character, it had to present us, like, there was just so much more story wrapped up in a similar sort of like misty nighttime, so many sabers involved kind of showdown. And so the non Vader part of this sort of paled in comparison to that for me.
Mallory
But with Vader, yeah, it was just fantastic.
Joanna
It's interesting because you and I usually kind of disagree about the use of Vader, whereas I think Star wars is a bit over reliant. That's an understatement. I think they're quite dependent on their trump card, which is Vader, which they will drop anytime they want to bring some shock and awe to something. And I think. I think often it has not been worth it, and then sometimes it's incredibly worth it. And I think, you know, like in the various, like Ahsoka encounters, incredibly worth it.
Mallory
Oh, yeah, of course.
Joanna
You know, I didn't think it worked very well in the Obi Wan series, but here, and especially again, hearing Sam talk about it like Vader and Maul fighting each other, there is real reason for that story to exist. And so it didn't just feel like, well, if we throw Vader at it, like, people will be excited and impressed. There's just like real, real storytelling reason for this to exist. And that was like what Sam and the people who worked on the show said from the beginning, which is like, we don't want to do this mall show just to like show you Maul who you love and show you lightsabers, which you love. And like Bring in Vader, which is always fun, et cetera, et cetera. We want to make sure we have real story that we're telling here. And so I like this is contrary to my usual like Anakin Skywalker again, you know, but this was like, this was really important.
Mallory
This episode is brought to you by Target. Time to talk about one of the most fun pieces from the Pokemon in Target 30th Celebration Collection. The mystery water type Pokemon bottles.
Joanna
Keyword mystery. Each bottle features a different water type Pokemon, but you don't know which one you've got until you open it.
Mallory
Which, if you're a Pokemon fan, should feel very familiar.
Joanna
We opened ours. Yes. I got Psyduck.
Mallory
I got Squirtle. So we're calling all trainers. If you want to see which Pokemon you can get, you can find them only at Target for a limited time. Explore now@target.com this episode is brought to you by Sweetgreen. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweetgreen's new wraps have got you real ingredients. Zero shortcuts, everything you love in one hand. Think Green Goddess chicken, garlic aioli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa. 40 grams of protein made to keep up with whatever comes next. New Sweetgreen wraps hit different order now@order.sweetgreen.com
Sam Witwer
this episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.
Mallory
I think that's another thing for the Inquisitors. It's like on the one hand, it makes perfect sense shortly after order 66 for them to be out on the hunt in such an active way, for them to be engaged in the field with Vader, like all of those things track completely. But then it's like the measuring stick is the ultimate measuring stick of like, how cool and how interesting is this Vader emerging from the mist. You hear the sound before you see him. It just gives you that feeling. As a Star wars fan, I thought the Vader in general, I really loved. The fighting in episode 10. In particular the acid pool stuff in nine. Less interesting to me. But though, again, RIP Spybot, we miss you dearly. The genuinely devastating gasped aloud in horror.
Joanna
Real hot Bummer.
Mallory
I mean, the combo, too, of the sweet swirling lightsaber slice and then the melting in a vat of acid. Very tough. Just.
Joanna
Sam, give us that update on microphone, or was it after we stopped recording?
Mallory
I honestly can't remember.
Joanna
Okay.
Mallory
Because that was many, many days ago.
Joanna
If he didn't do it on microphone, we'll give you the follow up on Thursday. When he talked about Spybot, I thought
Mallory
that the action in episode 10, first of all, just the setting, these ruins on Jan X, and then the clashing lightsabers. You have all. You have the blue, you have the red, you have the double sa, the double blades, et cetera. It looked great. It looked cool. The way that people were using their surroundings. Then you have, of course, like, the stormtroopers, you've got Lawson, you've got two boots, you've got the firing blasters. It was like kind of. The choreography was interesting. Who paired off with whom, when was interesting. What choices did people make was interesting. I thought that what it told us to the story front, to the story point, what it told us about, like, where are we with Maul and his recruitment of Devon with Daki, who, like, I think we were both astonished made it this far.
Joanna
I thought he was gonna be gone, like, episode three. He made it all. My guy made it all the way to the finale.
Mallory
If someone had set the over under in episode six, I think everyone would have hammered the under. Just no question, you know, who was gonna not like. I think we all felt pretty confident that this was gonna end with Mal and Devin setting off on some new journey of master and apprentice. Apprentice from the beginning, but, like, the question of how and why, was it because Daki died? Was it because Maul killed him? Was it because she made an active cheat? She made an active choice because she had no choice. Like, so the particulars of actually getting to see what unfolded and how and what remains a mystery to her is very interesting. But just seeing two Darth Sidious apprentices here sensing something about each other through the Force, and especially because, like, so, Maul and Vader have dueled in Legends canon, but not in proper canon, obviously in Clone wars, the end of Clone wars episodes we just adore. In the conclusion of Clone wars, we hear Maul talk to Ahsoka about Anakin, talk about this idea of Sidious Grand Plan that filters into this season quite actively. You know, later in Twin Sons with Obi Wan and Rebels, he's talking about the Chosen One. There's an engagement in that way. Obviously, they are both on Malachor and the two part finale, Twilight of the Apprentice and Rebels. But to actually watch them trade saber blows, I was like, just crack and catnip. As a Star wars fan, I thought it was incredible. But the part that was the best about it, I think undeniably was that, you know, you see that moment, Maul is like, no, no, no, no. Daki is like, that's bro. That's a Sith Lord. Like, to have these two characters who have such shared history and such an impact on each other's lives in the course of their lives, actually an inch away from each other's faces, and then making decisions that will impact not only their own circumstances, but the wider galactic history was incredible. So, like, Maul, you know, Maul getting. You've been tracking his injuries and the physical limitations throughout the season and like, Vader just comes in right away and knows where to hit him, right?
Joanna
The.
Mallory
Yeah, the power of the blows.
Joanna
Sam gave a really good answer about this, so I would love to like, yeah, Sam talking about all the physicality is so good. But I'm curious what you think about Vader as like a silent figure inside of this episode. He's not talking.
Mallory
I think that's for the best.
Joanna
Rasping. Yeah. So tell me, like, how does that impact?
Mallory
I think if he just comes in and is like saying something very directly. First of all, it robs us of getting to watch Maul try to puzzle this out in real time. And so much of this is about their respective connections not only to the Force, but to the idea of their role in somebody's plan, their own plan. And so I think if Vader is just like talking, it's a little less interesting because it makes him less of an opaque presence. Not for us, but for Maul, I really figured out. So I thought that was just a great choice.
Joanna
I really agree. Like, I think, I think the way that he's just bumping up, he's frustrated and bumping up against someone who's not giving him anything. Right? Like, you're no Inquisitor, that's no moon, you're no Inquisitor. You know what I mean? But not getting, you know, Vader's not about to be caught monologuing and being like, well, yes, actually I replaced you and like, blah, blah, and all this sort of stuff like that. And so I thought that was like really smart to not have him talk inside of this episode. And I don't know how much of that is informed. I don't know what the state of like, Vader Voice stuff is for them right now. I actually don't know what the realities of that are, but from a storytelling point of view, I actually really quite liked it. There's this moment when Maul is like leaning against a stone wall and then like, gets up and has like a half a second to be like. And then Vader just like, comes.
Mallory
That was scary, actually.
Joanna
Koolaid man, bursting through the wall, like, hand first. Very good.
Mallory
Yeah, it was awesome. And their controvers contrast and styles and circumstances. It was all just really, really riveting and fun to watch, I think. Also, it kind of fit. The silence fits with this larger presence of, like, what information do people have and when? Because also that's true for Devin, right? Like, we have this, you know, the strange alliances. Right. And that was kind of fascinating too, to watch. And that's across the season, not just here at the end, who has, like, sort of found themselves working with. With either nominal enemies or active foes as recently as an episode prior, who used to be aligned, and then there was a rift, and then they made their way back to each other looking at YouTube, boots, you piece of shit, et cetera. But, you know, to watch Mall, Daki, Devin engaging in combat together despite Docky's persistent fear. And right at the end, like, the fact that he's in your head, that he's calling you, like, be on guard, right? All of it.
Joanna
But also Mall, if you want to visit me and my dreams, you're welcome to.
Mallory
She's available.
Joanna
The channels are open.
Mallory
She's available. The fact that, like, this crucial moment, this choice that Maul makes, which, like, we will get to hear from Maul himself, from Sam, what he thinks is going through Maul's head in that moment of. Of decisive, the choice to walk away.
Joanna
Not just walk away, but he, like, force pushes Daki. He force Vader so tough.
Mallory
So tough. And they had been together, then they had split. Maul does this thing, he makes this choice. He has his reasons, but those reasons still put him in a place of being a person that he has spent his life resenting. Undeniably. Devon doesn't see that. She sees the outcome, but not his complicity in it. So there's an absence there of information for her too.
Joanna
What story is he gonna tell her?
Mallory
Exactly. And like, that, man, the fact that we get that, like, voice distortion on Devon, I mean, obviously, just the thrill of seeing her take the saber and like, did she go and bleed her own Kyber crystal? Not yet, but still.
Joanna
But taking the other, having Maul Having the twin blades that can separate and him giving her the other half. Like two halves of a best friend necklace.
Mallory
Exactly.
Joanna
Is pretty good. Shit.
Mallory
Talk about master and apprentice. Like actually sharing that tool of violence after all of the. Tap into your age. Tap into your age. And then it's like to watch it surface, to hear it surface, to see it in her eyes. The way she says at the end, I'm ready. And that kind of like crinkle smile on his face of like, okay, here it is. The thing that I have been seeking. And so like, you know, I will kill them all. That's the voice distortion part for Devin. And he's like, like, you're not strong enough yet, but I'm gonna get you there. I'm gonna train you and that's what you need. I'm gonna tell you it's what you need and it's what I want. This is a really interesting place for us to be. At the end. Maul lost a lot of members of like, his crew.
Joanna
Yeah. But that was the math. That was the trolley problem Matthew was willing to make. He's like, no question. Basically, I will trade all of you. Yes. You two rook cast for Devin. She's the juicier morsel for me. And what's interesting to me is like, yeah, what story will he tell? And like, who else in this cast is going to be in season two is a question that I have because, like, you know, you and I both are like, you can't fool me with a run into the mist, like potential fake out death for Lawson. But I could also see like Lawson and Riley and Two Boots, like not even being in season two. If they wanted to strip down the cast even further. I think it would be a shame to lose like Two Boots most of all. As a favorite Ayoade fan. Yeah, I love his politics, especially not Richard Iowade. But two Booth. But. But like, I don't know, I'm curious, I'm curious, like, how much do we strip down to master and Apprentice? And in contrast to the point you were making about the inquisitors, like, we know those two inquisitors are gonna be fine. We know that Devin and Mal are not together forever. No. And that's a kind of filling in the gap storytelling that I like where I'm just sort of like. But I don't know what's gonna happen. Is it. Is it that Devon dies? Like Maul kills her or Maul kills her or Vader kills her or something like that, or. And this is like always My preference to give me something more interesting. Does she make a choice to leave him? Do they have a like more if
Mallory
you had to say now, put money down now.
Joanna
I think based on some things that Sam said in our interview, he didn't give any spoilers, but just sort of like based on the future attitude Mah has towards other characters. I think she decides to leave and he lets her go. That would be my.
Mallory
Oh, I think it's the opposite. No, I think. I think she will decide to leave too. I don't know about the letting her go part, but I think he will be destroyed once again by the idea of not being chosen. I think the question is he's going to be devastated, but I don't think future is this, but I don't think
Joanna
he's going to stop her is what
Mallory
I think Rebels is like so far in the future of the canon. We also have, of course, you know, his Hollow chat with Kira and Solo, of course. And so we have Dryden Boss.
Joanna
Everyone's thinking about Solo.
Mallory
That's close to the. But still pretty far away. Like, is Devon still with him then? You know how much of the story of the future of Maul in these next years of the canon are the Master and apprentice stuff? How much Crime Syndicate still.
Joanna
So you're saying they should release Solo back in theaters, a respecialized edition with Devin, just like in the background of the Hollow.
Mallory
I mean, they've done it before in Star Wars. I know they've done it before. Let's get Devon right in the little corner of the Hollow. It could happen. I think the fact that Devin's like I will kill them all about Darth Vader does at least of course leave open the possibility that she just like gets killed by Darth Vader at some point or the Inquisitors. That can happen. But I agree with you. It'd be much more interesting, especially if this is like a decent chunk of time and they really. They go through their training. She has fallen to the dark side. And then she. I mean, we've seen a Star wars redemption story before, but they work for a reason. If she pulls herself out of that into another path and Maul once again is like, I have not been. Of course, Maul has also lost people in other ways. You know, Savage Opress, Mother Tolson, et cetera. It's not always people just choosing someone else. Sometimes they are killed brutally, forever a lonely boy. Palpy killing his new apprentice would also be. That would be the ultimate wound for him. 1A 1B with her just deciding to leave, have this one thing that would also be amazing. Not that I'm rooting for Devon to be killed, to be clear, but sounds
Joanna
like you are, you know, you don't like women.
Mallory
It's canon. It's canon. So we lost Spybot Brutal. We lost Daki later than we thought. Various members of Mall's crew, as we noted. And then so Lawson, are we like officially saying we don't think he's dead? So he took, he did take a couple blaster wounds.
Joanna
He did.
Mallory
But you know, he puts people out
Joanna
very sabers to the gut in various live action Star wars shows and they've been fine.
Mallory
So yeah, it's not even like, show me a corpse in Star Wars. It's like whatever is beyond.
Joanna
You've been, you've been cut in half, you're fine, no problems.
Mallory
Just like them all. Exactly. Get some spider. Like. So I think it's possible that Lawson is still alive. I think it's interesting that Riley thinks he's dead though, because Riley and Devin, I mean, he's like, Lawson's like two boots. Get Riley to his mom over in the Empire. So maybe just Riley begins his like life as a Empire stooge. But the fact that he and Devin, these two teens who have kind of already hit it off over a number of episodes now have this trauma bond of like.
Joanna
Yeah, but it's interesting cause Riley goes like internal and she goes rage external. And I do think it would be interesting to have these two characters grappling with similar like parallel losses, but in different ways. And if he's the pull to the light side now that Docky's gone or something like that for her. I did, you know, this morning sort of check out some people's like recaps, reviews or whatever of the episode. And a lot of people were like, we don't think Riley's gonna be in the upcoming seasons. And I'm like, I don't know. I think Star Wars Animation wants a couple teenage characters. You know, like they, I think they like to have young characters around your ahsokas, your era, your whatever, to like, you know, engage young people watching the show. So I think as much as I want to watch a psychosexual drama between Devin and Mal, that's what Acolyte season two is supposed to be. You know, I think Star Wars Animation wants to get give us a romp adventure with a couple of teens along for the ride.
Mallory
So, you know, yeah, I'm curious to see what happens with the whole Lawson family.
Joanna
I don't. Is it interesting that mall Shadowlord season 2 is set up to be kind of what Acolyte Season 2 was going to be?
Mallory
Yes. I think that these stories about Acolyte's second life on streaming. I mean, it was on streaming, but the Discovery, I'm like, I haven't totally given up hope that there's a future there, I guess. Is it possible that they could say, let's still do it.
Joanna
It. Let's do it.
Mallory
Why not?
Joanna
Why not? Let's do it. We had our many notes for Acolyte season one, but we had some positive things to say.
Mallory
Absolutely. So that would be fun if we got to do Acolyte season at some point.
Joanna
Acolyte was largely like, there's so much good here. We would love to excavate the good for season two.
Mallory
I would love to see it excavate those back scars and back muscles. And there's a lot of stuff about the stranger's back that was very important.
Joanna
Very important scene cinema.
Mallory
Obviously, even if we one day had the pleasure of watching Acolyte Season 2, nobody would be able to say that Maul didn't have a claim to. I'm gonna train you now as a storyline so we can do it with Maul no matter what. What balance do you want between the Master and Apprentice story with Maul and Devin, given how central that is not just to Maul's canon but to his psychology with the crime Syndicate stuff now that Dryden Voss is here?
Joanna
Yeah. Can I say 99.9% master and apprentice stuff?
Mallory
Okay, so not a lot for Dryden Vos and his face scars, I have to say. Not a fan.
Joanna
I. I don't think they did a great job matching Paul Bettany's, like, yeah, charisma.
Mallory
I did think he looked hot as a cartoon. He looked good.
Joanna
I don't think the voice was a great.
Mallory
The voice was.
Joanna
It doesn't have to match, but it, you know, like, because the mall voice isn't an exact imitation, you know, like, we've seen other people take on, you know, the animated Obi Wan Kenobi. Like, there's, like, great people who have taken over a previously existed live action performance. This did not hit for me the way that Bettany did in Solo.
Mallory
What if the ship they had flown in on for their very subtle extraction attempt had been the first light pleasure yacht? Would that have changed your opinion?
Joanna
Yes.
Mallory
Okay, there's our note.
Joanna
That's my note.
Mallory
There's our note. All right, so as usual, you remain uninterested in Crimson dawn and anything that connects to the canon of a Star wars story. Sad but true. Yeah.
Joanna
It's just me against the world.
Mallory
You against the world. I'm the only one. Everyone else agrees. Yeah, everyone else agrees. Makesolo2 happen. We are getting season two of Maul. What else? What else do you want to see in season two of Shadowlord again?
Joanna
I would just love. Well, I would love more, like, I would be happy to see Palpy if we got some, like, good Palpatine Mall, like, you know, abandoned shit. That would be great. Yeah. I don't know, maybe run into, like, one of the other million Jedi out there on the run and just sort of like to get some. Hey, what are you doing, Devon? Moments from other Jedi might be interesting.
Mallory
That feels important, given how much of Maul's initial pitch. Even though the initial pitch is not really what worked, you do have to wonder about the incepting and the seed planting and the slow march across the season.
Joanna
Somebody walks through your dreams, it's, you know, Maul.
Mallory
What if that's the name of season two we had?
Joanna
Shadow Lord Dreamwalker.
Mallory
Dreamwalker.
Joanna
Yeah. It'd be great.
Mallory
Who says no?
Sam Witwer
Not us.
Mallory
Not us. I can't wait for season two. I thought season season one was so fun. I'm glad we're getting this time with Mal. Excited to see Devin fall to the dark side. I hope that Lawson is alive and well, even though he's peppered with blaster holes. Shout out, Icarus. By the way, speaking of peppered with blaster holes, I know we already mourned him for, like, two seconds, but let's just say he basically took the Boromir arrow level of blaster fire, but then still was like, I am going to gather in my arms every Stormtrooper I can hold and take them with me into this acid vat.
Joanna
It was pretty great.
Mallory
That was sick.
Joanna
Yeah, it was pretty great.
Mallory
I don't have that in me in my final moments. Yeah, no, I don't. I want to be in a comfortable bed, you know, I want the Tyrion Lannister with a couple anatomical tweaks to his very specific scenario that he sketched out. All right, it's time for our wonderful conversation with Sam Witwer, Maul himself. All right. It is the thrill of our lives to be here with Sam Witwer. We have been kind of trying to manifest this on the pod for a very long time, this conversation. And now here you are at the end of The Shadowlord Season 1 Run to Talk about everything. Everything that has ever happened in Star Wars Animation, in your life, in Mal's life. We'll see where it goes. We have, obviously, questions about the finale.
Sam Witwer
Do you see the fear in my eyes?
Mallory
No.
Joanna
It's the first time.
Mallory
Anticipation and joy.
Joanna
You told us this is the first time you're gonna say certain words into a microphone.
Sam Witwer
In two years? Yeah, in two years.
Mallory
Okay, well, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get to those secret words pretty soon. We obviously have questions about the finale and where things went across the season. But let's, like, let's start with a little bit more of a big picture. Why not stretch here about your relationship to this character? Because you've been playing Maul for more than a decade, which is just an amazing stretch of time to be able to inhabit a character and embody a character. Does it even feel like a job to you at this point, or is it just like a second skin?
Sam Witwer
Well, I do know him fairly well. It's a situation. There have been other jobs where I've been trying to figure out a character and there'd be some passage of dialogue or something, and I wouldn't know what to do with it. Cause I didn't know the character yet. And just as an experiment, I'm like, well, what would Maul make of this? No matter what the character. Character is, I would say the passage is Maul. And he had a lot of opinions about this passage in terms of what certain words meant and how he felt about what he was saying. And so, yeah, I've come to realize that we've done enough work to where he is there. He will manifest if I ask him to show up. Yeah. But what's interesting is that with Shadow Lord, this is, in fact, a new version of the character. I mean, every time we came back to him, you gotta do something new. Otherwise, don't bring the character back. What would be the point? We already did those things. So, you know, there's early Clone Wars. There's Spider Mall, which is his own thing.
Joanna
Our favorite. Yeah, we love Spider Mall.
Sam Witwer
There's the old sad Rebels Mall.
Mallory
That's right.
Sam Witwer
And then this is a different thing. This is the Shadowlord.
Joanna
So he's changed, obviously. But in terms of your relation to, like, what has been the most significant change in your understanding of him as a character from when you first encountered him taking over the role from other folks who worked on it until now, what has changed in your understanding of Maul?
Sam Witwer
Well, as he has evolved, one of the first Things that we established was his hurt and vulnerability. The spider Maul thing really was an opportunity to make the statement that the dark side isn't a fun place to live.
Mallory
Yes.
Sam Witwer
And that there was something human in there that was screaming and expressing quite a bit of discomfort. What's fun about him now, as he's evolved, is that he's at war with himself, which is, in fact, the dark side. The dark side. These characters are at war with himself. Unless you're. Perhaps Palpatine is fine with where he's at. Very possibly.
Mallory
Papi loves it.
Joanna
Sleeps well at night.
Mallory
Loves it.
Sam Witwer
But even then, I mean, I'd heard, you know, it's out there, that George at some point was going to give Palpatine a love interest and stuff like that.
Mallory
So George always lakes on the Boo
Sam Witwer
Sheev, you know, why would he not? That's where he's from, Right. That's where he comes from. That's where he vacations. But with Maul, ultimately, he's trying to do things. He's trying to accomplish things. He's trying to, in his own way, effect a positive change. But between the good intentions and the actions is a giant gulf. And the intentions are only as good as the actions, really. At the end of the day, are you as a human being, are you doing the right thing, or are you doing something that hurts someone? Right. And for Maul, unfortunately, the gulf between intention and action is the difference between good and evil. So that's really where the character lives. You need to watch these characters making choices. That's what makes them teachable in a mythological sense. You need to watch them make the right choice or the wrong choice. And so that's the challenge. That's my job, is to really try to make those choices interesting. And that's what we talk about, me and Brad and Matt and Athena over and over and over and over again.
Mallory
We were curious to ask you about that kind of sense of authorship that you have over the character. Because, you know, you've. You mentioned George, you mentioned all these other creators who are helping to shape this world in so many vibrant ways. And like, you know, you've been working with Dave Filoni on the Maul front since day one. And obviously, like, his role at Lucasfilm has changed considerably, but his interest in Maul hasn't. That's a constant.
Joanna
Right.
Mallory
Like, the desire to keep returning to Maul's story. And so how did that manifest inside of Shadowlord? But also, just, like, what does it do for you with your relationship to this character? That you feel like you are actively helping to craft the canon as you portray him.
Sam Witwer
I think there comes a time where, if the actor's been around long enough and it's been a successful enough character, that I suppose there's some understanding that you may want to get that person in early if you're working with that character. Because me and Dave, I mean, well, Dave brought me in early. With Clone wars, it wasn't just, hey, I want you to do Maul, and then I show up and record lines. That was not the process. The process was we were thinking about that character months before we recorded a single line. And we'd have these recurring discussions that would last one to two hours on the phone. We were obsessive about it, talking about the character, who he was, what drives him, what we were going to learn about him. And he also furnished me with as many scripts as they had, which I work better with more information. Always, always, always. And Dave set me up to succeed in that way. And, you know, it was either because Dave really, really cared about the character or he knew that I was a really, really green voice actor. It was one or the other or both that he gave me the extra help. But he furnished me with a lot of his time. And I remember. I remember recording some of the first mall. Because we. We're always working with the other actors, if we can. We're always in ensemble, if we can pull that off. But I was shooting a series in Montreal at the time, so we had to get a studio and I had to record some stuff separately. And so I remember some of the first records of Mal were from Montreal. Others were, like, with Clancy in la, if I could fly back, I would. But I remember I had great pride because I was so proud. I was so very proud because Clone wars at the time was this little thing that we didn't know if anyone was really watching. It had certainly been lambasted by certain critics and stuff like that. But we thought it was great. We thought it was cool. And I was a fan of the show before I was brought in to play the Son of Mortis. So we were recording Maul, and I was so proud because at some point during a break, the engineers at the studio in Montreal said, said, who's this guy that's directing you? My guy's Dave Filoni. He's like, tell us about Dave Filoni. I'm like, oh, well, he's kind of George's. I told him all about Dave. And they're like, I'm like, why Are you asking? And they're like, because this is among the best direction and most concise. Most. We know exactly what we're going for. Direction we've ever heard. And we've been doing this forever. We've been doing features, voiceover, live action, everything. We wanna know more about this guy. These two guys that ran the studio, they were fascinated by just hearing Dave work with me. And I was so proud. I was like, yeah, I think we're doing something cool. I think this is cool. I like this. And it's nice to hear from people who have. No, no. They weren't getting paid to say that. They just thought what they were hearing was really interesting to them. And they're like, so you're. No, wait, you're Darth Maul, but he's dead. You know, so it was, you know, it was moments like that that I was like, you know, I think we're doing good work. I hope we're doing good work. I think we are.
Mallory
So love that we got a mortis mention already.
Joanna
I know.
Mallory
It's a thrill for us. We're huge mortise heads. Oh, yeah, we are. Oh, yeah.
Sam Witwer
Well, that was where I became a voice actor. That particular job I'd done. I guess the Palpatine character in the Force Unleashed was kind of a voice job, but it was also. We shot it. We shot it on camera. So it was something I was familiar with when it came to mortis. I really needed Dave's help to convert a live action actor into a voice actor. And he was. There's a whole story behind that too, where he helped me create that character.
Joanna
Do you want to tell that story?
Sam Witwer
Sure, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of epic. And it leads directly to Darth Maul. Basically, what happened was this. In live action, sometimes to. What they need is just. They need an organism to put on camera that's going to react in a very particular, honest way. And sometimes that can be very compelling. So there have been times where I showed up for a live action gig and I had some ideas, but I sort of trusted, you know, I know how to do this. Something special is going to happen. Let's. Let's do that. So I maybe had a little too much faith in that and I show up for the mortise job and I didn't have as strong ideas as I should have, and I started floundering. As far as I'm concerned, I started not. It was just a little too generic. It was just, you know. And, yeah, I was really having trouble. And I'm Surrounded by Ashley and James and Matt. Dee was in it for a little bit, and they're in their season three mode. So we were watching season two, but they're working on season three now. And I'm hearing them so dialed in to their characters. I'm not. And I'm told in no uncertain terms that I am meant to play the dark side of the Force.
Joanna
Right.
Sam Witwer
That's a theme. That's not a character. That's a theme. How do you play a theme?
Mallory
Right. Yeah.
Sam Witwer
So I'm not doing great. And it was sort of generic. And that sort of magic that I was hoping would just arrive is not arriving, and I know it. And I raise my hand at some point, and, you know, Dave is that guy that I've seen in some interviews and stuff like that. Right. I said, hey, Dave, is it? Are we concerned that the Son of Mortis is just kind of sounding a little bit like a generic version of Starkiller? Is what I said. And Dave knew exactly what was happening with me. He's like, oh, this guy's treading water. He's having trouble. So I watched him manufacture a response that was designed to give me confidence, which is another way of saying a lie. He said this. He said, well, you have to understand Sam. Without missing a beat by the way he goes. You have to understand that the character of Starkiller had a connection to the dark side of the Force, and your character is the dark side of the Force. So it's okay if they sound similar. It's all right. It's all right, man. We built a bridge, which did help my confidence being like, dude, it's cool. Yeah, but that's not what got me.
Mallory
Me.
Sam Witwer
Like, my. There was. There were neurons in my brain. When he said that, that started going absolutely nuts. And I couldn't understand why, like, was getting, like. I'm getting goosebumps even thinking about it. I'm like, he's just hit on something. And I don't have time to realize what this is. But thank God the character doesn't have that much dialogue right now, because in the next two episodes, he just talks the whole way through this one. He only had a few lines, right? So I. I'm driving home from that. That session, and the neurons are now taking over my brain. They're spreading to other neurons. You know, connection to the dark side of the Force. So he can sound like Starkiller because of the connection to the. Well, wait a second. That only makes sense if the Son of Mortis sounds like every character In Star wars that had a connection to the dark side of the Force.
Mallory
Oh, my God. Yeah.
Sam Witwer
That's holy. And I'm getting. Again, I'm getting excited even thinking about this. So then I went home, and I'm like, I have something to work on now. So I grabbed those scripts and I was like, okay, wait. In the top of this line, that could be a Vader moment, and then it could slip into a Palpatine moment, and then I can go dooku. A little bit of Maul here, But it will always be with my voice. But the cadence will shift, and maybe the tone will shift slightly. I'll never dip fully into the character, but I'll tip it toward these different characters. And when I came back and we started performing it, Dave. I started doing that, and Dave just smiled and he just goes. And he literally just. Right away, he picked. He knew exactly what I was doing. He goes, I see what you're doing. And I'm like. And I got really self conscious. I'm like, oh, should I stop doing that? Should I not? He's like, no, no, no, no, no. You do it more. That's the character. That's who this is. That's how we portray the dark side of the Force.
Mallory
Awesome.
Sam Witwer
And so at that point, we were going for it, like, Dave's like, hey, can you throw a little this and that? Yeah, let's do that. Remember that moment in the Empire Strikes Back? Then Attack of the Clones? And we just started throwing things in. And, yes, there were moments that were meant to feel like Darth Maul. So later, when we were doing pickups, Dave's like, you know, he goes, you know, I know you have a lot of friends at Lucasfilm. I'm like, I do. From Force Unleashed. He's like, you've probably heard we're going to bring Maul back. And I'm like, yeah, I have. He's like, what do you think about that?
Mallory
I'm like, oh, wow.
Sam Witwer
That's a tall order, man. That's a. Ooh. You could really. Oh, you could get that wrong. And he's just nodding and smiling, and he goes, cool. Well, dude, thanks for coming in. I think we might have something for you, you know, down the road. I'm like, cool. Like a bounty hunter. I'd love to play a bounty hunter. And he just kind of gives me this look, like, yeah, no, just, like, totally didn't understand what he was talking to me about. No clue. And then he called me up and he said, I need Darth Maul. Can you do it. He called me up some months later, and when he said it, can you do it? He wasn't saying. I could hear in his voice. He wasn't saying like, hey, are you available? Are you interested in doing Darth Maul? He was saying, am I making a mistake by going to you for this? Please be honest with me. Can you do it? And because when I was lacking of confidence, he gave me a very reassuring lie that created my character and turned me into a voice actor. I must have felt like, I can hear that he has a little lack of confidence. So let me lie right back. Yes, I can do that. Surely, surely I could do it right now, but I don't feel like it, you know, so, you know, and again, I'm making fun. We weren't lying to each other as we were trying to get on the same page and help each other, which is the whole key to a collaboration. You're trying to hear what the other person's priorities are. And you go, okay, all right, I can incorporate that. I can figure out a way to do that while threading the needle of the things that I think I need to build.
Joanna
And he says, I have two words for you. Spider legs. And you're like, I'm in.
Mallory
I'm in. I'm in.
Sam Witwer
Baby spider legs. Spider Mall. We talked about Spider Mall so very much. When he told me about that, it was just this wonderful mythological. The dark side gone wrong. These legs constructed of garbage, held together by the dark side of the force. It was pretty intense.
Joanna
What you've described here sounds like an incredible mind meldy sort of collaboration. But I'm curious, at this point, so far into playing Maul, do you have any, you know, violating all rules of improv? No, but rules about Maul, like, Maul would not do that. When that comes to you, I'm sure I do.
Sam Witwer
I've been the scourge of Matt and Brad. Poor Matt. Matt and poor Brad. On the show, I can't think of any hard and fast rules, but, yeah, you better believe there was one. Yeah. Recently, in a recent session, they asked me to say something and I said, I don't quite know how he would say that. And because Matt and Brad are so talented, they're like, well, what about this? And they come up with an alternative. And I was like, oh, that's fantastic. That's great. So, yes, there's a certain flavor and it feels right or it feels wrong. So that's. And Brad encourages me to be stubborn. Brad is terrific. I mean, you've Seen the show?
Joanna
Oh, yeah.
Sam Witwer
Brad's kind of, you know, it's excellent. It's a little bit like a film school Lucasfilm. It really is. And it started with George and branched out through Dave. And we all had the opportunity on the Clone wars to work under George, for George to tell his stories and learn what his storytelling priorities are. Now, no one knows that better than Dave. There is truly no one who understands Star wars better than Dave. But what's fun is because we were there, we all feel like we're part of a group of people. Mattie was there as well. Matt Miknovitz, and Athena's been there always. And we all. We kind of know when it feels right, and we know when it feels wrong. And we get to have discussions about the things that we've learned over the past more than a decade or two decades or whatever it's been.
Mallory
Well, one of the interesting things, you know, about the setting and the time frame for the show is that it is between a lot of those prior experiences, right? So, like, this is such a fascinating time in mall canonical timeline because we know so much about what came before, right? We've got Duel of the Fates. We've got the Trash Heap Planet Spider Leg Stretch. We've got, you know, Morning Savage Opress and Mother Talzin. We have the Mandalore take over. We have Shadow Collective, right? We have being with Ahsoka as order 66 is unfolding everything, right? But then we also have, in the distance, Ezra, Malachor, twin sons, right? So given that there's this rich stretch to mine and explore more fully in between, what were you either heading into season one or now at the end of season one, moving forward into subsequent seasons, like, most excited to get to navigate. And mine, in this stretch of the Maul canon, like, was there a question that you were most hoping to answer either for yourself or for fans?
Sam Witwer
Yeah, there was.
Mallory
What was it? What was it?
Joanna
Tell us.
Sam Witwer
Well, for me, immediately, when I heard that we were doing this show, the question that leapt to my mind is, why is it that he showed Ezra respect at times, even though he was trying to manipulate him? I'm not saying he wasn't. But then when Ezra, eventually he says, hey, we could be brothers. Ezra goes, no, I'm never gonna join you. And Maul is clearly hurt, and then ends up stopping whatever that instinct was about to become. And then he laughs and shakes his head and walks off and says, ezra Bridger, and leaves him alone. Now, whether Maul was planning to get back to him later or not is open for debate, but you can't imagine Palpatine doing something like that. The moment someone said, no, this is never happening, you're dead.
Joanna
Right.
Sam Witwer
Whereas Maul's like, man, I. You know, I.
Joanna
What a character.
Sam Witwer
Yeah, you. Wow. Look what you just did. You just stood up to me. That's impressive. Impressive. And he works alone in Rebels, and we've seen that Maul can take over a planet in an afternoon if he wants to. Right?
Joanna
Yeah.
Sam Witwer
Why does he not do that? Why does he let Ezra go, all these different things? And, yes, of course, He's got other things he's doing, but I always got the feeling that Maul was at the end of his rope and had no place to go in Rebels. So then. So immediately I'm like, well, what happens that made him like that? Something has changed him drastically from Clone wars to Rebels. Hugely. And it can only be Devon Azara. So that's the thought.
Joanna
Given what we've seen here in season one, what would you say so far that you can say about their connection that would lead him there?
Sam Witwer
Well, you know, it's interesting. In episode three, he's calling out that he's got her number, he understands her. He's like, you were training to achieve something that few could only to be denied. You crave that unfulfilled destiny. And it's all landing on her, all of it. However, you know, him being able to manipulate her like that, that kind of goes both ways. Because he's talking about himself. It's one of the interesting things that Matt McNally and his writers did in this season. First of all, one of the most brilliant things is the fact that. And I've told him, I love this. The fact that Maul trains an apprentice by just going, hi, how's it going, Darth Maul, I'm training you now. And then he just. Every time you bump into him, whether
Mallory
you like it or not.
Sam Witwer
Exactly. Congratulations. Whether you like it or not, you're being trained. Every time he encounters her, there's a new lesson, and it's a specific lesson. Okay, now we're going to the next lesson. You passed that test. And so by the end of the season, you're like, yeah, he's been training her this whole time, and she's been absorbing those rules and that training those thoughts. So I always thought that that was absolutely fascinating. But the thing that Maul didn't anticipate is that he recognizes through this, that it's like. Like, Palpatine was awful to me, and he abandoned me. Yeah, well, if I hate that guy so much, I'm kind of a hypocrite. If I do the same thing, that means actually I have no leg to stand on. Pardon the pun. He has no legs, but he would say, yeah, I have no leg to stand on when it comes to his treatment of me. If I do the same thing, I'm the same guy, so I deserve that treatment. But if I'm better than him morally, then I can righteously be indignant at Palpatine, righteously be indignant at the Empire, and I will treat her better than I was treated. But the problem is, he was raised by Palpatine, so is he equipped to do. Does he even know what that looks like?
Joanna
That's a conflict inside of the human heart.
Mallory
It's the only thing worth writing about. As we like to say on our Game of Thrones pods, we wanted to ask you about exactly this. We're in full blown finale spoilers territory now.
Sam Witwer
Okay, here we go.
Mallory
And we've got a couple other things to cover on that front as well. But exactly what you just said was something we wanted to talk to you about more. Because part of, you know, we love seeing that conflict in Maul. Right. It's part of what makes him just such a delicious and compelling character. Those contradictions. So much of his recruitment of Devon across the season was like, let's break through those reductive binaries. It's not what you think it is.
Joanna
It's not. We're not so different.
Mallory
You're not. I'm not who you think I am. But at the end of the day, we're about to say the words Darth Vader. Make sure you have watched.
Sam Witwer
Yeah.
Mallory
Spoiler alerts the finale before you listen to the rest of this. When it comes down to it, he's made his pitch tap into the rage. Daki has said teamwork.
Sam Witwer
Yeah, not going to happen. Daki is like, we are not betraying those principles.
Joanna
Exactly.
Mallory
They have aligned. They have fought together. It is like, mesmerizing in so many respects.
Sam Witwer
And then at the same time, they're not quite getting along. You can tell that Maul's getting frustrated by this guy going like, you're not doing the thing. And I happen to know a little bit about this fight. I know more than anyone about this fight. He's the expert on what's happening in this fight. And the people that he's trying to survive with are like, you are really not listening.
Mallory
And we want to ask in a minute about what he's Sensing in Vader, too, because obviously, that is a very rich text as well.
Sam Witwer
But, like, be open to debate as to how much Maul knows. I have very specific thoughts. Well, obviously, we need to know what he knows, and then the audience, they own it after that.
Joanna
Can we just.
Mallory
Let's lean into that. Yeah, tell us. Let's. I mean, Maul finally fights Darth Vader. We get to watch them duel, Right?
Sam Witwer
It's debatable that Maul has sussed out by the end of the fight exactly what he's up against. If this is just an inquisitor, which Maul says you're no inquisitor, but let's say it was. Maul would still be like, hey, dude, these folks can know who trained you based on how you're fighting.
Mallory
Yes.
Sam Witwer
So you gotta change it up. It's not gonna work. Your Jedi playbook is well read by these folks. They know what you're doing. So your only chance to survive is if you listen to what I'm saying. What do we got to do? You got to go nuts. Lose all those principles. Absolutely. Tap into your rage. Give it all up so that you become unpredictable. And unfortunately, that would be damaging to the Jedi psyche. You know, to play dirty, you know, to use the tools of the enemy. But Maul already does that, so he's like, well, I'm the only one fighting this fight. You maniacs. What's wrong with you people? So. So he is truly trying to get through that, but he does not feel like his teammates are. And so, of course, if he knows what must be done for the greater good. Look, he's trying to get people out alive. He's also trying to topple an empire that is hurting trillions of beings.
Joanna
It's a lot on the to do list.
Mallory
It's a hefty list.
Sam Witwer
And he's looking at the pieces that are on the table, and he goes, okay, well, I'm gonna to have to. I'm gonna have to move this along. And so he moves a few pieces into certain places.
Mallory
Yes. He.
Joanna
That's a way to put it.
Mallory
It's a very generous way of saying, he abandons Daki, who is then murdered by Darth Vader, and Devon sees the outcome, but not Maul's choice.
Sam Witwer
And what does that do to Devon? Now she's finally getting it. Now she's fighting. Now she can survive.
Mallory
Takes his saber in her hand, fires up that red blade.
Sam Witwer
And the trick is that the audience gets to decide in terms of that equation of Maul's decision Is it simply, I want an apprentice and I'm gonna get her? Right, yeah, maybe that's a little in there, but what else is in there? This guy isn't listening. He's gonna get us all killed. Well, that's also in there. Also, if I don't act fast, Devon's gonna die. I can hear that she's struggling. I can feel in the Force that she's struggling. She's not ready for this. Fight. Fight. If I hesitate much longer, she may not survive. And what did I promise in the previous episodes? That I would not allow Palpatine to do to another young person what he did to me. So I have a responsibility to do something. So Maul has this good intent, but like I said, there's a gulf between the intent and the action.
Mallory
Yeah. How aware of he is, Is he of that hypocrisy?
Sam Witwer
Well, that's the thing.
Mallory
He was like, he's manipulating her to your point, just like Palpatine manipulated him.
Sam Witwer
He does, exactly. Because you trained Maul, who raised Maul. He was raised by Palpatine. These are the tools he has at his disposal to carry out whatever his goals are, whatever his heart is. So you understand this is not someone for Maul. Him and Palpatine are so different. There are lines Maul would never cross that Palpatine would just blow right past. But from the outside, I don't know that other characters would look at Maul and Palpatine and see that world of difference. They'd say, you guys look a lot similar. You guys are the same guy. You know, Maul doesn't see it that way. Maul's like, no, no. What I'm doing is totally different. And Daki wasn't getting with the program. So what do Jedi do? They sacrifice. Okay, do it.
Mallory
You're up. Yeah.
Joanna
Wow, Impressive defense attorney work from Sam Witwerling case.
Sam Witwer
The interesting thing about evil in real life or in drama is that evil will always use its intellect to do the mental gymnastics to justify whatever is going on. And again, the whole key with Maul and what keeps him as an interesting character because, look, if he wasn't making choices and constantly motivated by all the same things that we're motivated by, then he becomes Skeletor. Skeletor, which is great for the cartoon that I grew up on. It's great for he man, but would not be good for Star Wars. That's not what we're doing, Maul. There really is some good intention in there. He meant what he said when he said, I won't let him do this to anyone else. And he feels that he is following through on that directive. But if you zoom out, the audience may disagree with him and go, oh, I see what you think you're doing, pal. But like that. And for Maul, he goes, oh, I'm sorry, did you want us all to die? We're living in a very tough world. This galaxy is constantly trying to kill you. Especially with the Empire there. There's no choice. I made the only rational choice necessary. Oh, and I'm sorry that this guy went down. He wouldn't get with the program.
Joanna
Trolley problem, right?
Mallory
Always.
Sam Witwer
And so again. And that's the other thing about the dark side. The dark side constantly points the finger outward. It's everyone else's fault, you know, so Maul is being more reflective in this series than we've ever seen him to be. But I don't know that. I mean, you know, I play the character, so I'm like him, his. I'm. I'm meant to be his advocate. You know, I'm Nick Nolting in Cape Fear, but. But I do eventually have to go, you know, I don't know if I agree with this guy, you know, because ultimately this is a very damaged character. And again. Oh, and what I was going to say about the training of Devon throughout the season, one of the brilliant things that Matt Miknovitz and the writers did was they not only had the. That method by which Maul trained Devin, but you're learning about Maul based on what he says about Devon. You're learning. And we're treating this show like we're introducing Maul to a new audience because you have to, you know, you have to invite people into our cool Star Wars.
Joanna
I can't imagine this is the first entree for someone into Star Wars.
Sam Witwer
I'm hearing from people who it is.
Joanna
That's exactly.
Sam Witwer
And it works for them, which is, like, good. We want it to. You know, of course, by the time you get to 108, you get deeper into his mythology. But I think it's a really compelling thing that you can sense that Maul says these things to Devon because they're true of him. And that's the only thing Devin recognizes, that, like, spirit in them. And the tragedy of Maul is that it needn't have gone in this direction. But he never had the support. He never had people who provided him alternatives in the same way that Obi Wan Kenobi provided Luke a world of alternatives. Kenobi, yeah, that guy, you know, so she couldn't resist.
Joanna
I wanted to ask you not to just dwell too long on spider legs, but something that I think is interesting in this finale episode is, you know, Maul's fighting style is so lithe, so limber. But then several times this season, we have he bumps up against the physical limitations of his mechanical parts, another mirror reflection of Vader, et cetera. But I'm just curious what's interesting to you about really exploring that a couple times this season, the physical limitations of this version of Maul?
Sam Witwer
Well, the discussions were the fact that, you know, I've said a few times in interviews that there were certain ideas that I would throw at Dave that I thought would be interesting to explore with Maul. And Dave would very quickly say, well, cool idea, but this isn't Maul's show. You can't get into those nitty gritty details. I never dreamed that Dave was thinking there could be a mall show. So I thought it was just these ideas were gonna go nowhere. But one of the things that I have always been interested in exploring was he's a cyborg, and his legs were issued to him, the ones he has now, by a guy who didn't expect him to be alive for more than a year. He doesn't have Vader hardware. Whether the hardware that Vader employs is painful for him to use or not, you have to believe that it's pretty good. It's probably pretty expensive and top shelf stuff that Vader's using. Maul's. Isn't that things like the way that Maul and Vader fight, you have to understand that Maul's striking power, for example. Let's just go one. There's so many different things we've talked about, but one of the things we talked about is his striking power is not. Not what it used to be. Why? Well, because in order to coil like a snake and strike, that requires the kinetic chain from the ground all the way through your legs, through your core, this and that, through your, you know, shoulders, arms, into the striking surface of the blade.
Mallory
Yeah.
Sam Witwer
How does he do that when this is all interrupted?
Joanna
Right.
Sam Witwer
That's not the same thing. Right. Vader's stuff is higher grade. You can imagine General Grievous spend as much money as he possibly could. He's a look smacks her. Yeah, Grievous is looking. But so Maul is operating on constantly compensating. You know, one of the thoughts I had was when he's fighting Ahsoka, like how difficult that must be to balance on those beams with these legs, one of our favorite. They're not really made for that, you know? And so, you know, so for that reason, Vader's superior striking ability and the fact that he's so strong and has figured out how to use those limbs to enhance the strength rather than detract the strength, because Maul's strength comes from the agility, Vader's has brute force. And you imagine that his hardware is also designed for brute force. Maul can't compete with that. When their blades meet, he's not ready for that. He doesn't have that striking power anymore. There's also the matter of Vader sees things before they happen. We know that. And so Vader does not have to move as fast for his blade to be exactly where it needs to be at the right time. He's just like, yep, and it's there, and it's there. Now I go here, now there. Force push. You do this. You know, he's a machine. He's also totally prepared for the fight. You know, he's already done all of the reconnaissance and intel that he could possibly need to know exactly how to take this guy apart. You know, he has Inquisitors reporting back. You can imagine. They've recorded all of those fights. Vader's like, okay, I get it.
Mallory
Right, right, right.
Sam Witwer
I know.
Joanna
What discussion tape.
Mallory
He's always walking it back.
Sam Witwer
What is one one of the first things Vader does? Boom. Right to the legs, right?
Mallory
Yeah. Gives him a little hip flexor injury.
Sam Witwer
He knows exactly what he's doing, and. And he's trying, you know? Yeah. He. So it's not, in any stretch of the imagination, a fair fight.
Mallory
Right.
Sam Witwer
But it is a rich fight and full of character and interest, I think.
Mallory
Well, obviously, we have to linger on this for another moment because, you know, we just can't really overstate what a big deal it is that we got to watch Abdullah. This is like the good shit here.
Sam Witwer
You're among the first people in the world to see this, and this is the first time I can ever speak about it in two years.
Mallory
I mean, it's incredible. What a dream.
Sam Witwer
Very off balance and terrified right now.
Joanna
You're so safe.
Mallory
This is a safe space.
Sam Witwer
I'm not sure that I am. I feel like there's, you know, Lucasfilm, snipers up in the red dot. Oh, God. Yeah.
Mallory
Safe space here in the ruins on Janiks, you know, plenty of places to hide. You've alluded to a couple things that we wanted to ask you about this like, what is Maul aware of and kind of navigating and sensing in real time? Vader's preparation and heightened awareness in a number of respects, which gives him the edge. Of course. We as viewers are bringing so much to this, so much of the shared history as well. Like, you know, we're seeing them, two of the most iconic characters in one of the most iconic franchises in the history of the world. So right away, it's like, big deal, right? They've dueled in Legends, but not in the canon. They're both on Malachor and Twilight of the Apprentice, but they're not fighting. Right.
Sam Witwer
Maul's like, I'm not going anywhere near that.
Mallory
Exactly. Yeah. He's like, kanan, sure.
Joanna
Vader, he's like, been there. No, thank you.
Mallory
No. He talks to Ahsoka at the end of Clone wars about Anakin, about Sidious plans. But, like, this actual showdown is a huge deal. The action is electric. We have all of that. But then we're thinking shared master Sidious Kenobi. Right. Who only becomes Anakin's master because Maul kills Qui Gon Kenobi, who wounded them both. Exactly. So we can, in real time, as the peril and the action are unfolding, see that? There's an awareness that is building in Maul. He is sensing something.
Sam Witwer
That's right. And he's trying to make sense of it. And he's to. Going, going, please let me be wrong.
Joanna
Right.
Mallory
So what is it? What is he thinking? What is he feeling? How sure is he?
Sam Witwer
Dave told me all about the backstory of the Siege of Mandalore, which was that Maul was having these recurring nightmare visions about a Central Force user that was going to be the instrument to the end of the world, and that Maul was terrified and really, really disturbed by what he was seeing in his visions night after night.
Mallory
Night.
Sam Witwer
And he was so terrified that this is the first time he ever dared really try to turn on his master. It's the first time that he even imagined that he would tell people his master's name, which would have been great information for the Jedi to have.
Mallory
I mean, Yoda just meditating.
Sam Witwer
I wonder who Darth Sidious is. Yeah. And they're like, well, you know, Maul should have just gotten a paid phone. He's like, it's Palpatine hung up.
Joanna
That's it.
Sam Witwer
But he never does that, because there's a. There are strands of loyalty, and you imagine strands of fear that keep those characters linked, but he's willing to sever those at the very end. To reach out for Ahsoka. Tano makes an offer by telling the absolute truth about the situation, but he botches the pitch because he's like, well, that's our guy.
Mallory
That's our Maul.
Sam Witwer
Yeah, well, and this is what leads us to Shadowlord, because he doesn't botch the pitch. And Shadowlord, he's like, oh, I've got to remember my audience when I'm talking. And, you know, you don't hear him talking about revenge throughout the series. He doesn't do that. He goes, yeah, let's. You know, you Jedi, you're so amazing. You should be. They should be ruling. You should be leading. You should be, you know, like, he's figuring out ways to sell these ideas to Jedi, because with Ahsoka, he didn't do that. He told the absolute truth. He thought that was gonna do it.
Joanna
Telling you, it was a very convincing pitch, I thought.
Sam Witwer
Well, and the problem is, he goes, look, you were cast out of the Jedi Order. I was cast out of the Sith. I hate my master. I'd like to kill him. You hate your master. Let's go kill him. This is great, right? She's like, he's my best friend.
Mallory
He's like, damn. Slight miscalculation, of course.
Joanna
Jedi guy.
Sam Witwer
Damn Jedi.
Mallory
Those pesky attachments.
Joanna
Yeah, exactly.
Sam Witwer
Jedi, right? Breaking their own rules with the attachment thing, by the way. But, you know, so for Maul, the other interesting thing about in this series is that Maul is now seeing the Empire. You know, he says to Devin, now you've seen the face of your true enemy. He's saying that because he went through that. This is a guy who was raised to hate the Jedi Knights, but he never questioned it and never asked, well, where's Sidious coming from on this? And he was just took it as true truth. They need to be destroyed. And he was doing his best. He killed a lot of Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars. More than we know. And then when he gets to Shadowlord and he meets the Inquisitors, he goes, this is the alternative, right? And this Empire is awful. This is not how I see it.
Mallory
Yeah.
Sam Witwer
Is this what Palpatine had in mind? This isn't what I thought it was going to be. And the Inquisitors. One of the interesting things about Star wars is that lightsaber fights in particular, are about principle versus principle, two opposing viewpoints. And the lightsabers are the way that they work that out. Right? So if you fight Obi Wan Kenobi, you have Maul's principles versus Obi Wan. Yes, him. If a Jedi Knight or a Sith goes up against a bunch of battle droids, well, guess what. They're not coming up against principles. This is.
Mallory
Waited till we were.
Sam Witwer
Thank you very much, ladies. I think. I think we're done.
Joanna
I told her she should be wearing it the whole time.
Mallory
We had a guest for the rest of the pod.
Sam Witwer
I'm taking the apples with me. I'm sorry.
Joanna
Please, no.
Sam Witwer
So, you know, why do Jedi cut through battle droids like they're nothing? Because there's no principle there. There's nothing. There's no value.
Mallory
Roger, roger.
Sam Witwer
That's their value. Roger. Roger. Is their moral value. That's the value.
Joanna
This is what I call Mallory. Star Wars Tourette's, where she just can't.
Mallory
I can't help it. Just can't help it.
Sam Witwer
So when it comes to the Inquisitors, the terrifying thing about them, to Maul, the thing that's so objectionable is he's like, this is the same empty void that you'd get from a droid. But they're winning. There's no principle. There's no soul there. There's nothing. There's nothing guiding these. These folks. They're completely enthralled to the Emperor, but they're winning. What's going on here? How dark is this Empire? And so for that reason, you know, when Maul talks about the Jedi Knights early in the season, he is also telling the truth, like, Jedi. You know what? I've come to realize something. You guys were amazing, but you were asleep at the wheel.
Joanna
Right?
Sam Witwer
Right. But you guys could have done so much if you'd only just Woke up.
Joanna
Jedi 2.0. Let's go.
Sam Witwer
Yeah, right. And he doesn't really understand the intricacies there, but that's his perspective. I mean, the way even the show looks, the crafting of the lighting, and how dangerous everything looks. Well, we're getting a peek at the Star wars universe through Maul's perspective. In Maul's world, you can't stop to reflect because someone's going to kill you. You can't stop to reach a helping hand to a friend who's in need because that leaves you open to attack. You can't do that. It's not an option. So it'll be interesting to see how Maul deals with going forward. Devon, who is, you could imagine, would be quite a vulnerability, you know, Interesting.
Joanna
What a tease. Is there. We don't have much time left. Is there anything else you Mentioned that it's been two years. You've been sitting on some information about the finale. We did our best to ask some Vader questions, but is there anything else you. Any secrets you've been keeping that you're excited to say into a microphone in this very safe space?
Sam Witwer
You know, I think it's funny enough. I think. I think it's all kind of in the show. I mean, I thought Brad did an extraordinary job of getting all of these ideas out, either through visuals or dialogue or character action or a look or a passage or a lightsaber swipe. I feel like there's a lot of ideas crammed into the show. I mean, you guys bring up the legs. It's like it's not just him. Him wrestling with bionics that are going wrong. It's him dealing with extraordinary feelings of inadequacy and failure. You know, like that. That is where his failure. What happened. Where. Where did his life go wrong? Well, went wrong when he lost his legs. So if Docky kicks him in the knee, Right. He's not just kicking him in the knee. That is a. That is a horrifying, emotional wound that Daki is aggravating right there. And one of the things that I think is so interesting about the show and about Star wars in general is that in Episode four, Daki and Maul have a whole debate, really, for Devon's benefit. They have a whole debate about whose principles are more resilient, the Jedi's or the Sith? Whose principles are more resilient? Which philosophies is going to last through this catastrophe that we're all going through? And Maul goes, well, let us figure that out. Let's discover the truth. Pulls his lightsaber, wipes the floor with Daki. I mean, and you can see when he fights Devin, he's going, okay, check your footwork. Good. You're doing great. You're doing great. Okay, Daki's coming over. And then he just goes after him and just vicious and humiliates him. And then goes back to Evan and be like, do you see what I'm saying? You see what I'm doing? You know, he's teaching her. Even in that fight and in the midst of that fight where he is totally controlling the room, Daki gets in one knee kick. One knee kick, yeah. Daky then gets his ribs broken, thrown back. He's dealing with those injuries for the rest of the season, but he got that one knee kick in.
Joanna
Yeah.
Sam Witwer
And Maul has to have it repaired. Okay, cool. And then One knee kick. That one knee kick is the first domino that ends up unraveling the entirety of Maul's plan by the end of the season, because it leads to everything that happens. The malfunctioning knee, what happens is he's fighting the inquisitors, but he takes a jump, and the knee kicks out some sparks because it's not totally repaired. And the inquisitors are like, oh. Huh. Interesting. And it just keeps getting worse and worse as everyone is let in on what this man's emotional vulnerability is, which leads to 108, where he almost falls back into madness because of this. And so if you were to answer the question in 104, whose philosophy is more resilient? You would say, well, it's the Sith or Maul's, rather, the philosophy of Maul's aggression. He is telling the truth. He's got this down. And look, clearly Daki can't handle this. Maul's philosophy is more resilient. But then you back up and you watch the whole season, and you go, dakis. Dakis. Daki's principles are more resilient. Docky is the only one who lands a hit on Big Daddy. You know Docy. Docy lands with your code name for Vader. That's right. That's what we would only say, Big Daddy, because we were afraid someone would hear the words Vader come out of our mouth. Daki lands. He's got a broken rib. She's like, are you okay? He's like, I'm not dead yet. He just keeps going and going and going and going because he is persevering. He's sticking with his principles. He is being a good person, and he's continuing on. Whereas Maul, One knee kick unravels his entire plan. So you go, no, actually, the Sith is quicker, more seductive. But if you. And you can look for pleasure and quick solutions and easy solutions. Because the other thing is that life is nuanced. Life requires constant gut checks, requires constant reflection, the kind of reflection that you cannot stop and perform if you're a Sith because you're afraid. You're so fearful that someone's going to get you. Someone's going to take something from you. So you never stop and reflect. The Jedi are always reflecting and realizing that everything is very complex. And sometimes there's no easy answers. The Sith have great sound bites because they're saying, it's very simple. It's that person's fault. Let's go get them. Very simple, seductive this person over here is the cause of all your suffering. Let's go. Get. Get him. Simple. Let's do it. But simplicity doesn't always equate to truth. It may sound true, but it requires more thought, more reflection, more breathing to figure your way out. So, again, the Sith. Quicker, easier, more seductive. The Jedi path is actually superior. But even through this season, the way we've crafted it, Maul did not really witness that.
Joanna
Right?
Sam Witwer
He's just trying to get through. He's trying to survive, is the great
Mallory
through line for Maul. Then you mentioned the inadequacy, like the loneliness and the sense of inferiority that stems from that. Because whether it is like. And, you know, we haven't talked as much about the crime syndicate aspect of the season, but whether it is his ceaseless, you know, with Savage and now Devon and eventually Ezra, pursuit of an apprentice, but also the crime syndicates like needing to feel. Some of it is about power. Some of it is about strength. Some of it is rule of two weaning. But how much of it is just choose me. Choose me and make. Make me feel that you chose me
Joanna
the way that my mentor did not choose me.
Mallory
Exactly. I was cast aside. So now I need to live my entire life in the pursuit of being chosen.
Sam Witwer
All of these types of issues. You know, I do feel a little bit like I have opinions about all these things, but I think that the more important opinion about any of these things is the audience. It's what they bring to it. It's something that Brad says all the time and that I try to learn from. There are times where you really want to have some very strong dialogue and you want to say what you mean, and then there are times where it's like, back off a little bit. Let the audience bring their experience to this, because their answers may be more interesting and more deep than what we have now. Incidentally, I do agree that the character is dealing and struggling with feelings of inadequacy, but ultimately, everything that I've said in this entire podcast, it's useless. It's not important. What's important is that people have an experience that is theirs. When it comes to the type of thing, that's the important thing. So here I am talking about Star wars, talking about the Force and bionic limbs and all this stuff, but it's really about how do we approach the challenges in our life. And the only people that can really answer these questions are, it's you. And it's you. The better answers lie with you than with me. So I've just undermined the entire interview.
Mallory
Great news. We love to talk about Mal, and we love to podcast. Podcast for hours on end about it, so that's fantastic. All right, we're gonna end with a little insight into the canon of our podcast for you, Joanna.
Joanna
The Great Apple Wars.
Sam Witwer
The Great Apple Wars.
Joanna
Yeah. Which have, you know, bedeviled us for years. It is Mallory's assertion that green apples are disgusting and worthless is my assertion,
Mallory
unless they're cooked in a pie, that
Joanna
a Granny Smith apple is the best apple that exists. She has a tattoo that is a red apple. My is on my back, but it's a green apple. And these are the apple wars. The apple wars. And when the video circulated of you
Mallory
eating a green apple, Just a devastating blow for me.
Joanna
It's just a huge win for me. So, yeah, I just wanted to welcome
Mallory
you to Team Green.
Sam Witwer
Thank you. I see this.
Joanna
Yeah. Thanks for being here.
Mallory
I brought the one red. I brought a, I think, beautiful sugar bee. That looks delicious and is sweet. And the skin is not so thick that it would cut your gums as you bit into it. And I'll just throw that out there.
Sam Witwer
Do you see that?
Mallory
And it was great.
Sam Witwer
She absolutely took a shot there.
Joanna
Oh, no. Constantly.
Mallory
That was crazy. Joanna selected all of these green apples, you know, and they're beautiful. I will say they look great. Would I want to eat one? No.
Sam Witwer
Oh, my God.
Joanna
How limiting.
Sam Witwer
Wow.
Joanna
How sad for you, honestly.
Sam Witwer
Yeah, I think we have to turn her.
Mallory
Is Maul team Green, though? Like, would Mol like saying he loves to say Kenobi, you know? Is that his favorite word to say? Or would it be Granny Smith apple?
Sam Witwer
You know, it's very, very close between those two. The green apple thing is actually that eating green apple slices and stuff like that when you're in a studio helps you. It reduces the sort of saliva sound in your mouth because you don't. Unless you're playing Jabba the Hutt, in
Joanna
which case, red apples all the way.
Sam Witwer
Red apples all the way.
Joanna
Yeah.
Sam Witwer
But it. Team Jabba.
Mallory
I've got Jabba.
Joanna
Yeah, you've got Jabba.
Sam Witwer
Team Jabba.
Joanna
You got all the huts on your team. Good job.
Sam Witwer
I don't know that. Red apples in hand. I like both kinds of apples because balance in the force.
Joanna
Balance in the force.
Mallory
Damn. Small victory for me at the end.
Sam Witwer
You think that's the worst.
Mallory
Real peacemaker here. Unlike Maul.
Sam Witwer
I'm trying. I'm trying. You know, he's as he is. He's trying his best.
Mallory
You know, Sam thank you so much. Thank you for this. What is such a treat for us? Congrats on all of the success of season one. We cannot wait to keep watching Maul's Journey.
Sam Witwer
Oh, thank you.
Joanna
From here.
Sam Witwer
Thank you very much.
Mallory
Okay. Okay. What a chat.
Joanna
I have a reveal.
Mallory
What a treat.
Joanna
That interview was so impactful that I did die, and I have been force ghosting this entire podcast with you guys.
Mallory
Can you give Joe a little, like, kind of blue hue around her at least just for the outro here, just to really land the bit. The great effect.
Joanna
Guilty of the skills, right?
Mallory
I think so. I think so. That was wonderful.
Joanna
That was great.
Mallory
I was proud of both of us. Despite leaning into some of our, you know, the true spirit of House of Our. We had the apples, we did the bits, the Kenobi shirt, et cetera. Was proud that I wasn't like Aiden being human. Crash down Battlestar. Kept it together.
Joanna
You stayed composed.
Mallory
Stayed composed.
Joanna
I was deeply impressed by you.
Mallory
It was fun. You think he'll come back for season two?
Joanna
Well, he's a friend of the Pod now. Friend of the Pod? Yeah.
Mallory
That's how it works, right? You're here.
Joanna
Once you're a friend of the Pod,
Mallory
you're a friend of the. That's what. Friend of the Pod. For most people, friend of the Pod is like, you have been a friend of the Pod and then you get the title.
Joanna
No, not us is bestowed. Tim Oliphant, Friend of the Pod.
Mallory
Friend of the Pod. That dog who walked behind Timmy. Friend of the Pod. Was his name Ben?
Joanna
Could be.
Mallory
I think he's the dog.
Joanna
Ben Kenobi.
Mallory
Ben Kenobi. I do think that dog's name was Ben. Okay, thank you to Sam Witwer.
Joanna
I mean, come on.
Mallory
Most of all, Sam Whitmer. But thank you to everybody else as well. Our wonderful crew here. Carlos, Scott, Jamie, Arjuna, Jomi. Anyone else who's here today helping out
Joanna
the booking team that made Sam Witwer happen?
Mallory
That's right, Allison. Thank you to Allison Turner and the booking team for making that happen. That was such a treat to be able to chat with Sam. Thank you to anybody who heard Joanna's plea to make sure that Wilson Bethel is on this podcast in mere days took action.
Joanna
Yeah.
Mallory
And it came to be.
Joanna
They're not busy.
Mallory
We will see you on Thursday afternoon. Thursday evening for Daredevil born Again Season 2 finale, potentially with Wilson Bethel, if you have made it. So it's really on you. Bye. Bye. A text says you're on my mind. A bouquet from 1-800-FLowers says, you're my everything. Heartfelt moments belong in the real world, not just your phone. For 50 years, 1-800-Flowers has helped millions of people make memories that'll last a lifetime with gifts they'll cherish forever. Their expertly curated arrangements and gift baskets shipped nationwide with a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Don't wait for the next big moment. Make it when you visit 1-800-Flowers.com Spotify today that's 1-800-Flowers.Com Spotify.
Sam Witwer
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Podcast: House of R, The Ringer
Episode Date: May 4, 2026
Guests: Sam Witwer (voice of Maul)
Hosts: Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson
This special May the Fourth episode celebrates the Season 1 finale of “Star Wars: Maul—Shadow Lord,” focusing on the series’ explosive ending, its approach to the complex legacy of Darth Maul, and peeling back the curtain on the creative process with voice actor Sam Witwer. Hosts Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson conduct a deep dive into the finale’s character arcs, themes, big battles, and the show’s philosophical undercurrents—culminating in an insightful, often funny, interview with Witwer about Maul’s evolution and the emotional core of his journey.
“In Star Wars, a lot of storytelling happens inside of a lightsaber duel ... like a dance number in a musical.” [12:36]
“I think Star Wars is a bit over reliant … on their trump card, which is Vader, which they will drop anytime they want to bring some shock and awe.” [17:42]
“I will trade all of you … for Devon. She’s the juicier morsel for me.” [29:24]
"He is there. He will manifest if I ask him to show up… but what's interesting is that with Shadow Lord, this is, in fact, a new version of the character." [40:16]
"He's trying to do things… effect a positive change. But between the good intentions and the actions is a giant gulf." [42:21]
“So Maul has this good intent, but… there’s a gulf between the intent and the action.” [66:24] “He was raised by Palpatine. These are the tools he has at his disposal... From the outside [Maul and Palpatine] look a lot similar.” [66:32]
"If Daki kicks him in the knee… that is a horrifying, emotional wound that Daki is aggravating right there." [84:20]
This episode is essential listening for Star Wars animation fans, for anyone fascinated by the inner lives of villains, or those simply looking for a passionate, searching conversation on storytelling, myth, and the unending search for belonging in a galaxy far, far away.