'The Vampire Lestat’ Episode 3 Deep Dive

Summary

House of R: ‘The Vampire Lestat’ Episode 3 Deep Dive (June 23, 2026)

Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Mallory Rubin
Podcast: The Ringer's House of R
Episode: In-depth discussion of AMC’s Interview with the Vampire, Season 3, Episode 3 – "Toronto Fast Forward"

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Overview: Main Themes & Purpose

This episode of House of R features hosts Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson diving deep into the third episode of The Vampire Lestat. The theme centers on trauma, art, legacy, cycles of abuse, and loneliness—following Lestat’s past and present as revealed through his relationships with Nikki, Gabrielle, Magnus, and how these inform his current choices, artistry, and emotional life. Joanna and Mallory explore the episode’s structure, character development, lore expansion, and the series’ inventive choices, while weaving in listener feedback and relevant book comparisons.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Thoughts & Overall Impressions

• Hosts’ Reactions: Both Mallory and Joanna enthusiastically praised the episode, calling it the strongest of the season so far for its balance of character development, narrative momentum, and emotional resonance.
  • "This was my favorite of the season. I thought this was great start to finish." (Joanna, 06:46)
• The episode structure—spending extended time both in the “Interview” and in flashbacks as well as action—was highlighted as particularly effective.

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Listener Mailbag & Feedback (04:08–14:31)

• Accent & Character Perspective: A listener suggested that Gabrielle's over-the-top accent could be attributed to Lestat’s subjective memory of her, as opposed to it being a "real" depiction; the hosts discuss the tension between subjective narration and television storytelling.
  • "This Gabby is Lestat's version of her...his subconscious way of reckoning with that fact." (Camille via Mallory, 05:35)
• French Accents in English: “Why are all the French people speaking in accented English?” – Continued debate over authenticity and accessibility.
• Gender & Vampire Liberation: Listener pointed out parallels between Gabrielle’s arc and trans narratives; recommendation for VE Schwab’s work which explores similar themes.
• Anne Rice Book Tour: Anne Rice was once carried to a signing in a casket, highlighting her flair for the dramatic.
• Talamasca Show Lore: Updates on the now-cancelled Talamasca spinoff and implications for side canon.

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Show Structure & Creative Choices (13:23–14:31)

• Directed by Claudia Llosa and written by Ansuri Roy (noted Canadian playwright), the episode's play-like structure—anchoring the story in a longboard interview segment—was commended.
  • "25 minutes of this is the interview...a very playlike setting." (Joanna, 13:41)

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Deep Dive: Plot & Character Analyses

The Destruction of the CN Tower & “Macro Doom” (17:09–19:05)

• The literal collapse of Toronto’s CN Tower is both a visual spectacle and metaphoric harbinger of world-threatening vampire events, possibly tied to the “Great Conversion.” Debate ensues over whether doom follows the band, or they follow the doom.

Lestat, Band, and Tour (20:18–22:24)

• Light moments: Lestat’s sardonic critiques of North American landmarks mix with sexually loaded metaphors and band drama.
  • "Licking the underside and rounding the shaft is not even trying to hide anything." (Mallory, 20:57)

Vampire Biology & Lore (21:31–23:54)

• Recap and expansion on what can kill or incapacitate a vampire: sun, intense fire, but also decapitation isn’t always lethal (“merely decapitated” vampires can sometimes survive if powerful/old enough).
• Set up for future plotting: Could a main character “survive” beheading if needed? Mechanics echo book lore.

Daniel’s Vampiric History, Mortality, & Pranks (24:02–26:33)

• The “Daniel Malloy Death Watch”: Lestat’s account of Daniel’s “incidental life as a vampire” and hints of ominous fate.
  • "Led a brief, incidental life as a vampire. Incidental." (Joanna, 24:21)
• Emotional and literal toll of Lestat’s mind games, triggering Daniel’s humiliation and thirst for revenge.

The Interview Structure, Music & Artistry (27:03–33:10)

• Use of the “Interview” with Daniel as both literal and meta framework—incorporates book’s famous opening (“I am the vampire Lestat. I’m immortal, more or less…”). Questions of what can truly kill Lestat—audience primed to wonder.
• Lestat’s performative relationship with art, rock stardom as both expression and mask, and the interplay of vulnerability, cruelty, and honesty:
  • "On the official podcast, they said…Lestat is giving him actually a gift here, which is telling him a truth that is not for performance." (Mallory, 30:29)
• Music as a throughline from Nikki’s violin to Lestat’s contemporary rock, connecting creative bliss, trauma, and legacy.

Nikki, Gabrielle, and Parental/Familial Wounds (36:21–45:06)

• Flashbacks explore Lestat and Nikki’s deep artistic, romantic, and existential connection—with parallels drawn between their “first love” intensity and later relationships.
  • "I heard music...you make life when you play." (Lestat, quoting book, 37:21)
• Gabrielle’s coldness and jealousy in the series is sharper than in the novels; debates on whether this is Lestat’s memory coloring her, or a show choice to clarify her impact.
• Parental disappointment and estrangement are major themes: both Lestat and Nikki’s paternal wounds reverberate into their choices and emotional pain.

Magnus, Abuse, and Cycles of Trauma (49:13–59:36)

• Lestat's "origin trauma" with Magnus is depicted as both horrific and surreal, through a music video motif and chilling visual horror.
  • "My abuser, my liberator..." Lestat’s personal mythology is built atop deliberate denial and reframing of abuse.
• The “long table” as recurring symbol: family, predation, and the endless feasting on emotions—by both humans and vampires.
  • "What are you keeping for yourself?" (Joanna, 54:09)
• Repetition of cycles: Lestat’s inability to properly “parent” his own fledglings echoes the absence, indifference, or cruelty of those who made him.

Nikki’s Death & Armand’s Role (61:56–67:22)

• In-show deviations from book canon: Nikki’s self-destruction presented as more sympathetic to Armand vs. the books.
  • Mallory explores whether these changes humanize Armand and revise Lestat’s tendency to shift blame for his trauma.

Claudia/Bruce Confrontation & Mirrored Pain (73:05–80:32)

• Louis’s vengeful confrontation with Bruce—reciting Claudia’s words—underscores the show’s willingness to tackle sexual violence, its aftermath, and cycles of retribution.
  • “Every single word of that is in his head. It's in his heart. It's a mark on his soul.” (Joanna, 73:35)
• Effective use of parallel editing: Claudia’s searing testimony and Lestat’s terror are intercut to resonate emotionally and thematically.
  • "What becomes a cover and a mask? And what is a pain and a wound that guides you?" (Joanna, 78:26)

The Price of Truth & The Nature of Loneliness (85:25–89:28)

• “I don’t owe you my truth.” (Lestat) — boundaries, agency, and the withholding of one’s trauma.
• Vampire loneliness: the maker-fledgling telepathic barrier separating Lestat from every “family” he tries to create.
  • “The dark trick never brings love, you see, it brings only...the silence.” (Book citation, 87:22)

Vampires Anonymous, Armand the Addict (89:28–90:44)

• Armand’s (as “Alex Danger/Arun”) turn at an AA-style circle, openly declaring himself an addict. Joanna and Mallory note parallels between addiction and vampirism, and how Armand’s intensity mirrors Lestat’s cycles.

Book Spoilers & Canon Tangents (90:51–95:25)

• Akasha’s powers (pyrokinesis) in the books vs. her possible early intimation through the show’s city-destroying events; comic speculation about show liberties.
• Claudia’s “ghost” and whether Delaney’s accent shift is merely practical or hints at deeper lore.
• Daywalking: whether Daniel’s “incidental life” hints at book-based gifts being inherited from makers and potential for mythological innovations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joanna on empathetic structure:
  "The episode connected very intimate, personal things with the larger macro text...really impressive because, to go back to the Claudia-Lestat reveals, there's a version of...Lestat has told Daniel a really true thing. He has also withheld certain things..." (84:27)
• Mallory on cycles of pain:
  "She, Nikki left him, Claudia left him, Louis left him, Gabrielle left him, Magnus left him. Lestat sad." (89:16)
• Book–Show Parallels:
  "You make life when you play. I said, you create something from nothing. You make something good happen. And that is blessed to me." (Mallory quoting book, 37:21)
• On music as truth:
  "Lestat is only able to banish Magnificent Ghost when he experiences a moment of pure, wordless musical perfection. There's no artifice, just the music." (Listener Jessica via Mallory, 58:29)
• On inherited trauma:
  "What have I done to these beautiful boys that I was in love with? You know? And how have I tormented them? And for Louis to come and say, 'it's okay. What you gave me was a Gift, actually,' is this incredibly healing moment..." (Mallory, 72:14)
• Joanna on vengeance and pain:
  "Every single word of that is in his head. It's in his heart. It's a mark on his soul." (73:35)

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Important Timestamps

• [06:46] — Joanna’s overarching praise and early themes
• [17:09]–[19:05] — CN Tower’s destruction and portents
• [21:58] — Vampire biology & the mechanics of beheading
• [24:02] — Daniel Malloy “Death Watch”
• [27:03] — Daniel’s Interview: setup for emotional reveals and subverting audience expectations
• [37:21] — Book passage: Lestat’s awakening through Nikki’s music
• [54:09] — The “long table” and cycles of abuse
• [65:16] — Changes in Armand’s involvement in Nikki’s fate, book vs show
• [73:05] — Claudia’s words, Louis’s vengeance, performance analysis
• [87:22] — The theme of loneliness and the “dark trick”
• [89:28] — Armand’s Vampires Anonymous speech

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Additional Threads

• Comparisons to Prior Seasons: Mallory notes her own initial struggles with early Season 2 (“Oh no, is my favorite show not great anymore?”) and how things snap into place on reflection (09:10–10:51).
• Production & Casting: Praises for Sam Reid, Jacob Anderson, and Assad Zaman—several times called out for depth and emotional range.
• Speculation & Book Divergences: Joanna and Mallory engage in good-natured confusion about divergent plot turns, particularly regarding Akasha, the CN Tower, and Daniel’s trajectory.
• Meta & Relatability: Self-aware humor about the hosts’ own schedule—“Eight podcasts in four days. Nobody cares.” (Mallory, 90:42)

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TL;DR: Why This Episode Matters

The Vampire Lestat Episode 3 is recognized as a turning point that expertly weaves together trauma, love, artistic self-mythology, and the burdens carried by its immortal protagonists. Joanna and Mallory marvel at the show’s capacity to dissect painful cycles of damage (received and passed on), all while advancing the supernatural plot and continuing to expand the lore. Through luminous performances and potent dialogue, the episode clarifies Lestat’s motivations and pain while interrogating how the making of art becomes both shield and confessional. The House of R breakdown not only unpacks every layer but connects each beat with ongoing listener correspondence and canonical context, making this podcast indispensable for any fan eager to explore the show’s heart, horror, and history.

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For feedback, mailbag, or to join the conversation:
[e-mail]

Next up: Deep dive into House of the Dragon.

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Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

Foreign.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hello. Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That's Mallory Rubin. And we're here today to talk about the Vampire Lestat. Episode 3, Toronto Fast forward.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stop. Vape. Check your phone. Press play. Oh, good. Now he's a vampire.

[Mallory Rubin]

And that's it. I think we did end of the pod. We are so excited to talk about this episode. An episode we both spoiler really liked.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And we're going to get into all of that right after this.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

All right, quick program reminder, Zippy. We're doing the Vampire Lestat every week. It will drop on a Monday every week and we are just going to like zoom through this show that is making filling us with such joy. And it is sandwiched right between talk the thr, which is coming out Sunday night directly after the house of the latest House of the Dragon episode drops immediately. Immediately the moment literally right after. Right. And then Tuesdays. The some might say irresponsibly long, but I wouldn't say that. Hot day. Deep dive for Mallory and Joanna. So that's. You've got three blissful days with us talking about dragons and vampires and then you get to rest and we get to do it all over again.

[Joanna Robinson]

Except some weeks this summer you get even more because there are a couple coming out.

[Mallory Rubin]

There might be a movie we'll see.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're a month away from the Odyssey.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Tune in to find out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sheesh.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what? You can't tune in. Well, you can. I don't know. Anyway, the Orioles thing that we announced sold out in a day.

[Joanna Robinson]

It did? Yeah. Yeah, like half a day wild.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Less exciting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you so much to the Bhad Bhabies.

[Joanna Robinson]

You guys roll.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have. I have been getting messages from people being like, hey, man, can you release more tickets? I've heard it's like a fire code issue, which is why we can't.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not up to us. Ultimately.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not up to us.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, we have the. The space that we have. But, you know, anyone can buy a ticket to the game.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. You.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can be in the same stadium watching the same baseball game, and you

[Mallory Rubin]

can still see Mallory throughout the first pitch.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can enjoy some boogs barbecue, which I'd highly recommend.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

The live show itself. Sold out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sold out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our little cluster of experience. The fanlog. Are you enjoying this exclusive fan experience in the pavilion? Sold out. But you know what? Hey. Oh, invite us back next year. We'll do it again.

[Mallory Rubin]

Um, sounds great. You'll still be throwing out the first pitch. It will never be me. All right, spoiler warning for today's episode, the Vampire. We are discussing this episode, informed by the Vampire, Lestat and Queen of the Damned.

[Joanna Robinson]

What?

[Mallory Rubin]

And I don't know why the book is here. It just was in my bag. And so here it is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wonderful. I've still yet to read a page

[Mallory Rubin]

informed by Will we make errors? We will, and we'll talk about that in a second. No major book spoilers until a dedicated book spoiler section, which is actually fairly light in this episode this week. Um, that's all I have to say about that. Should we go now to our opening snapshot?

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have a really robust mailbag. We got a ton of emails from listeners. A lot of them were like, hey, Joanna, you're so dumb. Gabrielle is Italian in the books, which she is. My defense, which I explained to you, is that the audiobook I'm listening to, they're definitely doing a French accent for some reason, but she is Italian. Does her accent still need to sound like this? I don't think so, but that's where we are. We did an interesting email about that, about the accent. Among many other things our listener Camille wrote in to say in terms of, like, Lestat's creative storytelling. Right. Cause, you know, we're listening to Lestat recount this story via the Failures project to someone in their gilded bathtub.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's right.

[Mallory Rubin]

I guess ideal. Really gilded, like gold. Like, gilded bathtub.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I just. I'm a bath enthusiast, you know, like.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I don't know that I want a gilded Bathtub.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll try anything. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

At least once. Yeah, Sounds good. You like a clawfoot or.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, it wouldn't be my personal style choice for my home. Yeah, but at like a luxurious hotel, perhaps a castle, a resort, something like that. Now, I don't. I don't spend a lot of time in castles, but I'd like to.

[Mallory Rubin]

But we're gonna go to a castle this summer when we go see the Mad King play in Stratford, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, great.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's exactly right. And I will take a bath in a gilded tub or a clawfoot tub. Or perhaps both.

[Mallory Rubin]

Both? Why not both? Okay, so Camille says in terms of like, Lestat's editorializing. Yes, she says. I think this could even be applied to Gabby and her insane accent. She does sound like a cartoon vampire as opposed to a real person. And part of that could be because of how Lestat perceives her. This Gaby is Lestat's version of her. A figure who has loomed over him like a shadow, his life. Someone who swoops in when he is vulnerable and sinks in. Her fangs, her hunched shoulders, her overly cool demeanor, and of course her inspired accent all call to mind a character like Dracula. Gabby's one of the true monsters in Lestat's life and maybe this is his subconscious way of reckoning with that fact. A very generous interpretation from Camille.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interesting. I would say one that is perhaps more applicable as a direction to a book than a television show.

[Mallory Rubin]

When legibility is an issue. This episode. I wanna get back to the emails, but let's talk for a second about why we really liked this episode. And I think a main critique that people have had this season is that sort of legibility in terms of accent work or fast overlapping dialogue or non linear storytelling. So how did you feel about episode three? Tell me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, I loved it. This was my favorite of the season. I thought this was great start to finish and, you know, very in keeping with the flow of the prior seasons where you can really feel the momentum of the story inside of the season clicking into place. But I also just thought this was a great. You know, one of the questions we've had is like, how will Louis be deployed in the season? How will these storylines coexist inside of like their shared experience? Or if they're not inhabiting the same room, space, scene, how will we then access whatever Louis is up to? This was an episode where I was like, this is great if this is the solution. Right? Just like, put us with Louis for something that connects to their shared emotional history and Trauma, but it is actually really specific to Louis. It was edited and entwined in a way that connected to Lestat's history and Lestat's trauma and experience. So that was, I thought, just creatively, really, really smart. They don't always have to be across from each other in a boardroom, though. We love it when they are. For us to continue their journeys in parallel and in a way that is very hyper specific to them and the people in their lives. I thought that was great. The Nik for Lestat in terms of us understanding and unlocking more of his history. Magnus as well, very illuminating. This was such a key character episode. I feel like I understand who Lestat is much more than I did before this episode. But just the performances were amazing. I mean, it was gut wrenching what we watched and, like, very entertaining as well, in a really horrific and upsetting way, which is what the show can. Exactly what you want often do at

[Mallory Rubin]

its best from the vampire Lestat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. So I thought this was great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I really agree. I thought, you know, there was the comedy joy of the youe Biggest Fan music video, which is inside a really, like, sick and distorted layers of, you know, truth with oneself, truth inside of art, et cetera, et cetera. But that was like a really fun song. And then I thought Loneliness, which is the song that closed the episode, was like, far and away the best song we've heard thematically and just sort of musically. And I just think we're really, you know, in terms of me saying I loved all the music from the start. True.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Uh, but is it getting better and better? I think it is. You know, along with, you know, what's going on in the show, this is, you know, having Delaney here playing. Playing this waitress character, but having Delaney in the. In back on the show, Asad showing up as Armand, like, you know, it feels like the gang, the. The gang's all here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

In a way that they weren't in the first couple episodes. And then having Lestat sit down with Daniel, this is the format we are much more familiar with, you know, and as much as he says, I'm not Louis Dupont D. Lac like, undone by your relentless questioning and the mind trick that he plays on Daniel. And all of that is different, but it's still much more familiar territory to us. And I was thinking about this, like, you know, for the people who have been struggling with this season and their memory is that every single episode of Interview with the Vampire is perfect. That was not my experience with season two. I kind of. I definitely Struggled with the first episode of season two, when it's like, Louis and Claudia on their sort of, like, Eastern European adventure. And then even in the second episode. Cause I just wasn't hooked into Armand as a character yet. It took me a couple beats to really get into season two. And then I thought season two was a masterpiece. And then when you go back and rewatch it, I'm much more dialed in than I was the first time. But I really. I remember watching the first couple episodes of season two, and I was like, oh, no, is my favorite show not great anymore? And then it was, you know, so I've been a little less stressed about sort of, like, any kind of confusion or shift in tone or whatever we've been. We've been feeling here. And this episode just, like, really clicked it all into place for me. So love it. I'm glad we agree. Back to the mailbag. I will say that our listener, Samantha, I thought this was funny. Said that as every time I said the vampire less stat, she thought I was saying the vampireless dad. And that's what she thought the show was called. Is that a good Father's Day kind of program for the Vampireless dad? The Vampireless Dad.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, the dads are very present in the text of this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

The parents are very present.

[Joanna Robinson]

Good time for that email.

[Mallory Rubin]

Katherine wrote in to say, God damn it, why are all the French people speaking in accented English with each other? And you know what? I agree. Let's all speak French with subtitles or dial the accents down a little. I don't think it would hurt anything. Our listener Owen wrote into. In response to the conversation we had about Gabrielle, Gabriella, about feeling like a man trapped in a woman's body and how she feels liberated by vampirism, he brought up this book that I loved from last year, Bury My Bones in the Midnight Soil. V E. Schwab and I just wanted to say a little promo. I will be at San Diego Comic Con interviewing V E. Schwab for her author spotlight. So that is really exciting. We will also. The whole Ringerverse crew is gonna be at San Diego Comic Con. We can't make specific announcements, but we will be there. But if you want to come see Ve Schwab talk about her incredible vampire book, among many other things, I will be there, too. So come join us. But, yeah, that book rules. And that book does engage with this exact same sort of idea. TCS wrote in to let us know that when Anne Rice did her book signing for Memnock, the Devil One of the books that I referenced in terms of Lestat drinking period blood, she was carried into the event inside of a casket. And I just love knowing that about Anne Rice.

[Joanna Robinson]

Does it give you some ideas for my next tour? Yeah. Or live podcasts, Anything. Yeah, I mean, we've got cameras in the studio and we have a door

[Mallory Rubin]

and we have staff and hallways. Yeah. Do they definitely want to carry elevators?

[Joanna Robinson]

All of it. Like, pallbearer me in, ramp to the parking garage. We got it all.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it's just like, wheel me in on squeaky wheels. All right, so, and then, last but not least, Leah wrote in, we did not watch the Talamasca show. That I guess has now been canceled. Yeah, the expansive universe stuff is not super working out here. But Leah wrote in with some important information about the great conversion. The Talamasca. She's like, is the Talamaska anti. Great conversion. That was allegedly the reason they wanted to publish Daniel's book. It was meant to be a warning. Right. However, at the end of the Talamasca spinoff, some higher ups capture the snarky vampire played by the great Willem Fichtner, lock him in a basement with a bunch of sedated bodies, and order him to turn all of them. So at least one faction has a conflicting goal. Classic espionage stuff. Their secrets have secrets. So where the Talamaska stands of the great Conversion? Open question mark. But for those people like us who did not watch the Talamasca show, I thought that was some interesting, important information.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Huh. This episode was directed by Claudia, Claudia Llosa, and written by Ansuri Roy. And she's a playwright. Incredible Canadian playwright. Storied, Famed, beloved Canadian playwright. And I, you know, we loved the writing in this episode. Just like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And I mean, even though we had, like, music videos and a lot of grand sequences, very bloody murders, ripping spines out, et cetera. 52 minute episode. Didn't keep a stopwatch running. 25 minutes of this is the Interview. The interview, which is a very playlike setting. Right. And, you know, we got the Daniel doing his best. Errol Morris, with like, you're gonna look at me through this monitor. I'm not gonna. But did you make a couple people in a room with other people watching them interact?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

As they talk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you. Did it make you think of our teleprompter?

[Joanna Robinson]

It did. It did, actually. It really did.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just always thinking about this studio where we spend so much of our lives,

[Mallory Rubin]

where we live now. All right, let's go now into our deep ish dive.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

All right, so we open with Sophia Lestat on the tail end of a bender. And we get this. I mean, it's a great sequence with the Honeymooners here, incredibly fun, and the photo sequence, but we get this. Lestat complaining about the Toronto skyline, right? The CN Tower is something that he finds particularly offensive.

[Joanna Robinson]

147th floor water pick. Tough feedback from Lestat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tough beat for the CN Tower. Guess what? It's gone by the end of the episode. Which is, you know, a wild bookend to this episode. I. I don't know what's going on here. Do you have any thoughts about what? You know, did they make it obvious enough that that's what was happening? Because I heard from some people that they like missed it. That entire skyscraper collapsed. I felt like it was pretty obvious, but, you know, hey, guys, the CN Tower no longer exists in this world.

[Joanna Robinson]

I guess, you know, maybe it depends on which side of the to them it's iconic line from Lestat that you fall on in terms of how you think about that skyline. I. So let me answer your question by asking you a question, because this is something on my mind. You know, we've moved through some locations, right? Detroit, Toledo, Toronto. This idea of the great conversion is percolating, populating and great use of percolating across the season so far, the three episodes and the prior seasons, we've gotten a lot of heavy harbingers. We have a couple more in this episode for specific characters, but also a larger sweeping doom.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is anything the power outage earlier in the season, the crumbling of a landmark in a given city's skyline hyper specific to a thing that is happening in that place? Or would we be seeing something no matter where Lestat and the band happen to be at a given moment in time? Is the peril so vast and sprawling already that any city they were in something bad would be happening? Or are they following it?

[Mallory Rubin]

Is it following the tone?

[Joanna Robinson]

Are they bringing the plight to the place?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a great question. I don't have a specific book answer for you, neither here nor in the spoiler section, because this is like a bit of a liberty that they're taking. So I don't know the answer, but I think that's a great question to ask. Are skyscrapers dropping like flies around the world? I feel like we would have seen some news reports or something like that if that were the case, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Though all of the cell phones are covered with the blood of the recently eaten drink dead. So it's hard to load up the

[Mallory Rubin]

newsfeed having just that.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was so funny. The cuts from the photos he was taking to just covered in blood. And the photobomb from Gabriella.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gabriela's smile in that photo. Really, really funny. I will be calling Gabriela Sofia in exchange. Moving out. You know, we're going in and out.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, great.

[Mallory Rubin]

An interview with a vampire. Sophia and Lissad roll up the interview in a car full of corpses. We get to see Christine in full crisis mode.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love Christine. Where are you? Where are any of us really?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, where any of us really?

[Joanna Robinson]

Incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hello, lover. I didn't mean to skip over this. Lestat gives a very evocative description of the tour of the Great Lakes that they take.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's right.

[Mallory Rubin]

How did you feel about that?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm interested in his assessment of all aspects of Americana.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, I think for different reasons than his mother slash fledgling is. She's really like, why did you choose this place over me? And I'm like Lestat's tour tour guide for exploring different regions. Whether you're a rock star in a band or you're just interested in seeing more of the world. Yeah, I love the feedback is always so. I love, like, whatever he decides is withering as an indictment of a place. And then obviously in this case and in many others, what can, with just a couple choice words in terms of phrase, become overtly sexual in its description?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, licking the underside and rounding the shaft is not even trying to hide anything.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's just a talent that he has. It's just a talent that he has.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, Chris. Speaking of Christine, she calls Sophia a vagina pass. Its sell by date.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Sophia's like, bet I'll show you something in this episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great use of the public bathroom.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yarda, speaking of, has. Has the herp, apparently.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. So vampires can't get STDs? Like, any worries here for Sofia, or would you just heal right up?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You'd heal right up.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, I don't really understand the biology of these particular vampires because there's like, there's the peeing, there's the crying, there's the. Later in the episode, Jinx is asking if she can make a baby with her with her new groom. And he's like, not really sure it works that way for us anymore, but we can give it the old college try. Speaking of vampire lore, drop biological vampire lore. Drop Dr. Fareed lets us know that mere decapitation will not end a vampire.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which I thought was interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I read that as a double setup. It is helpful inside of this episode to just prime us for the fact that after Louis cuts off the head of one of killer's house guards, he's

[Mallory Rubin]

going to be able to then interrogate him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interrogate him and have a conversation about the Star wars prequels.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Important.

[Mallory Rubin]

A Jar Jar Banks tattoo.

[Joanna Robinson]

Important to be prepared for how that conversation could take place.

[Mallory Rubin]

Louis Dupont d' Lac knows who Jar Jar Banks is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pretty cool kid. I feel like while it was helpful to be primed for the fact that that conversation could take place with a severed head, you know, and we got the, like, class B vampire detail. So there's a little bit of lore there. Like the long. The more powerful you are, the longer you could. Your head could continue to exist as it was parted from your body. Feels to me like this is potentially. And again, I know literally nothing about what is to come. Set up for how one of our beloved characters could perhaps survive a decapitation inside of the events of this season.

[Mallory Rubin]

I also think it's interesting when it comes to, like, Nikki's story because, you know, we'll talk about some of the lore differences, but when Nikki loses his hands in the book, the intention is that his hands will be reattached because you can just, like, put limbs and heads and whatever back on if you work quickly enough, not if you then throw the hand in the fire. So that's when he cuts off his hand. Everyone in that scene is horrified. But when he throws it on the fire, that's just like, there's no coming. You can't repaste the ash back onto, though. Depends how old the vampire is. Because in the book, when Magnus. Magnus kills himself by fire and then he makes Lestat promise to see. Sprinkle his ashes because he's like, if you don't do that, I might come back. And who knows what shape I will take. And I.

[Joanna Robinson]

The ashes would reconstitute.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Into like a little ash monster. I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a no for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's absolutely no for me. Daniel Malloy Death Watch. This is one of those harbingers you were talking about. What? What do we hear? What. What does it make you think?

[Joanna Robinson]

So we're getting the Daniel Biodeetz the the Many Births and Rebirths of Daniel Malloy.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

His original birth, the born April 16, 1953. It' considered rude to ask vampires about their personal, their mortal histories.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was dead.

[Joanna Robinson]

Naming them murdered and reborn. July 18, 2022 by the Gremlin Arman. Hysterical. The Gremlin Armand.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know if you saw the character posters that they released, but it was like the frontman, the journalist, or like, whatever that was like the Gremlin for Arman.

[Joanna Robinson]

So rude, but very good. And then of Daniel, he led a brief incidental life as a vampire. Incidental. Hmm. Is that the right word? We're, like, intentionally distracted, I think, by the discussion of. Ooh, incidental. Is that the right word from the Letty Brief. And this is not the first time that we've had this beat. We had the first episode, the Jenks exchange, like, okay, what peril awaits Daniel? How soon and how permanent?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's a question I have. Again, I don't have any book information to help us here. And so I genuinely don't know if, like, Lestat just thinks Daniel dies or if he does die, how many characters can we, like, think are dead and they're not actually dead at the end of the day, like, I don't really know the answer. And Rice is like, the limit does not exist.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe there's also the. This is when he says, like, I have regrets when it comes to Dan. Yeah. And then, you know, the end of

[Mallory Rubin]

the episode, after serving cunt has consequences. Incredible wine. Put it on the Merchant.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'd buy it and sell it. The idea that what Lestat has done to Daniel, the way that he's embarrassed him and tricked him and deceived him, the way that he has bested him here, played with him, will have consequences. So it's like how much of this is about the trouble that awaits inside of their relationship and their storyline and how much of it has a larger ripple effect and consequence either for Daniel or for Inside the Great Conversion. Whatever awaits with Akasha, et cetera. Daniel seems like he's gonna wanna get some revenge. What happened here.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's deeply humiliated. Very much so. And like, when you think about Spiteful Guy, in terms of the reminding us of his, of his biographical details, there are several reminders in this episode of like, you know, toddler dumb of being a vampire. There's been several, several indications of that this season. And so this reminder of, like, Daniel is a brand new vampire.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And how chaotic and turbulent those emotions are. And as like, snarky and like, world weary Daniel Malloy has been as a, as a human, he's a much more vulnerable, like, vampire. And his, like, absolute relish at believing he has. He has cornered and captured his prey, only to find him, like, he's the one in the trap. Is an exquisite part of this episode. I loved it. I loved it. And I thought. I thought Eric Boghossian played that so well.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, amazing.

[Mallory Rubin]

So Dan starts his interview with Lestat, and we get a version of the most of, like, the very famous opening lines of the book. I am the vampire Lestat. I'm immortal, more or less the light of the sun. This is Nate. This is once again, like, what can kill a vampire, right? He says the light of the sun, the sustained heat of an intense fire. This is additive to the show. Jefferson Starship, Incredible garage wielding coven members. These things might destroy me, but then again, they might not. So that's the opening line of the book. And to your point about this beheading question, I think what can eliminate a vampire as old as Lysdat, not to mention the other much older vampires that we meet, is one we should be constantly asking ourselves.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it feels like the episodes to date are really not just readying us for potential story beats here, but actually encouraging us to actively think about this. Like, what could kill Lestat? What could befall him that seemed like it could kill him, but that he could actually potentially hopefully survive?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, he's already done that, right? Like, Claudia and Louis thought they had killed Lestat, and he's like, yeah, I'm fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

These scars aren't even from you guys.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah,

[Joanna Robinson]

you missed them.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right. Daniel, like, on the. On the hunt the entire episode for Lestat's secrets, the tears, the truth. He doesn't want to give up. We get an early fake out here, which I really love because that primes us to be more susceptible to the later fake out. Right? We get the, like, overt laughing, like, crying into laugh. The way that, like, he. He peeks through his fingers as he's, like, revealing that he's laughing into the opening credits. Like, it's a great shitty moment, but it really, like, puts us on the back foot when it comes to the later, longer con that he pulls here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. And I think the other thing that it did that felt very effective was, like, put you on your back foot but also force you to lean in because you're so compelled to. Like, how much of this is intentional from the beat and how much of it is. That he is. Lestat is really feeling. Feeling something. Daniel has actually disarmed him a little bit and unmoored him a little bit here. You can see on leat's face. Every time Daniel goes back to the stutter, right? That he is like, this is.

[Mallory Rubin]

He promised he would not call him.

[Joanna Robinson]

He promised. You're mic'd up, guys. We can hear you.

[Mallory Rubin]

But pulling up him, too.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's not vibing with this. And he's pissed, right? But, like, so how much of it actually does crack through? He reveals something he doesn't want to, and then he covers in real time, right? Which, like, who among us has not done that at some point in their lives? And then, you know, later, when he is about to. I mean, I thought the reveal was so incredible for so many reasons. Mostly Daniel's reaction, obviously. Also the insight into Lestat that he would do this thing. The commentary on the people around them and how they behave in the face of these people. Like, when Daniel's like, none of you said anything, you know, that's really interesting in terms of, like, what we should be clocking about how other people or, like, their behavior.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do these people know? Like, this camera crew? Like, what do they believe? What do they know? I guess they're hearing all of this. They believe. Believe in vampires. Are they Talamaska adjacent? You know, like, who is this crew here? I don't know the answer to that.

[Joanna Robinson]

All that said.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

If early in the process of this interview the following exchanges took place, I would probably also just be in a haze of delirium from having witnessed it. You have a song, long face. The lyrics are, ooh, ooh, ooh, wah, wah, ooh, ooh, ooh, wah, wah. What's the story behind that? And then building to. So not about sucking dick.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

On the black licorice front.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Daniel, once again, like, tough cookie, being all of us. Sort of like pouring over the lyrics for meaning and being just like, what is this bullshit? Like, how can you pretend to be an artist expressing yourself? But then, like, you know, you get to your biggest fan, which is this sort of warped retelling of a traumatic event. And then you get to loneliness, which I think is the most honest, crucially honest, reflective song from Lestat. On the official podcast, they said something. Roland Jones said something really interesting, the showrunner, about this trick that Lestat pulls on Daniel. Like that it is both cruel, which it is, but also he's like, Daniel doesn't understand that Lestat is giving him actually a gift here, which is telling him a truth. That is not for performance. It's not for the cameras. It's not for anyone else. It's just for him. And it's a Story about a fledgling vampire who has lost, you know, all sense of self and control. So it's a cautionary tale. It's a. It's a vulnerable. I'm sharing something with you, Dan. Right. And also, this is a story that you should probably pay attention to, Dan. And none of it is, like, coded in his usual posturing or all these other things. So, like, he is actually. He's crying and he is being emotionally honest. And it is just for Dan. And there's no way that Dan sees it for, you know, as a gift in any way. He sees it as a humiliation, which it also is at the same time, you know, ain't that just Lestat on the sort of stutter front, which, again, as I mentioned, is a show invention thing. The idea that he got his stutter from this traumatic event when he went to go see these witches burn. And the idea that in the show it's Gabriella who takes him to go see the witches burn. And she looks so nonchalant about the trauma that this has caused him as she's watching this interview take place. In the book, it's the priests who take both Nikki and Lysat when they're younger to go see the witches burn. And that Gabriella is that Gabrielle is pissed because she's just like, why would you. This is so traumatic. And also, this is a cruel thing. This is an ignorant thing to do. Why would you do this? So I'm curious that they gave this. This thing that the priest did in the books to Gabrielle. And in general, interesting, there's just none of the sort of, like, softness and kindness that exists from Gabrielle in the books here in this version of her. When Nikki gets turned in the books, she's like, kind of trying to help him figure out how to hunt, how to do all these things. Here she is just an absolute C word to him. Like, she is so cruel. And all she cares about is dividing Lestat and Nikki and none of that sort of like, kindness and comfort that is present for her in the book. So I think it's interesting. Do we interpret that as like, again, to our listener's point, this is Lestat's memory of her and it is only the cruelties. Or is the show trying to say something a little bit more like, make it less ambiguous how, you know, manipulative or, you know, traumatic the impact that she has had on Lesat is, and not try to hide it with any of the other, like, kindness and comfort that she also gave him.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think in addition to the benefit of that backward looking clarity in terms of the impact that she has had on his life, his psyche. His psyche that he talks about here in ways that feel simultaneously very, like, true and very. Then, okay, let me, like, heighten the performance and spin this into a yarn in real time. Yeah. We talked a lot in episode two about, like, the way that the jealousy that was being conveyed on the Louis front, like, what we were priming for there. So to show us this very deliberate attempt to put a wedge between whether Lestat was already feeling distant from Nikki is, like, irrelevant actually. Right. She sees a. Or not irrelevant. Maybe she had to see something true in order to try to put the wedge in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

But she's doing that for her, not for him. She's not saying. It doesn't seem like you're, like, really into this guy anymore. Are you sure you want to spend eternity with him? It's. Well, if he's around forever, like, what's that gonna mean for me?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think all of that's true. And I think what's also true is that both Armand and Gabrielle are like, this guy does not have the temperament to be a vampire. And it's something that you need to consider. And it is something that, you know, we'll talk about it a little later. But, like, it's something that Lestat had in mind when thinking about Claudia and stuff like that is just sort of like this warning that he ignored from Gabrielle and from Armad about Nikki who had, like, some mental, you know, illness before he became a vampire.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I'm interested in. In that aspect of, like, what part of who you are before your turn is heightened and labeled super soldier serum. Super soldier serum style. And then because some of what we've talked about with Lestat is like. And Louis, the aspects. Becoming a vampire allowed them to, like, lean into the parts of themselves that they wanted to more fully be. And maybe it doesn't always go that way for everyone, but in terms of just the history between Gabriella and Lestat and what Nikki is bringing to the surface and to the fore, there I was really struck. She called him a cabbage. And that Lestat looked like to turn their personal joke, their shorthand, the bubble of their world and their language, the thing that isolated them from the pain of the family who ridiculed and actually tried to harm them in so many ways. That's our little language of love. And then she's gonna use it to diminish the person he loves. I thought Lestat looked so truly hurt hearing her quickly say that. So that Was really telling as well in a way that, again, you feel very quickly inside. Was episode two my favorite.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Was episode three my favorite? Yes. But a moment like the cabbage scene, which wasn't my favorite part of the season, but at least and bore fruit here in a meaningful way.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, so let's talk about him. Darling Nikki here, Right? So, nikki, so age 29. Lestat heard music. I think this is interesting. Like, they're making. They're pinning his age. Lestat has turned much younger in the books, I believe. And so. But they're like, how young can we get away with Sam Reid looking here? And they're like, 29. Sounds about as good as we can do. He heard the music. This is a passage from the book about Lestat hearing Nikki play. He ripped into the song. He tore the notes out of the violin and each note was translucent and throbbing. What struck my heart almost as much as the song itself was the way he seemed with his whole body to lean into the music, to press his soul like an ear to the instrument. I had never known music like it. The rawness of it, the intensity, the rapid glittering torrents of notes that came out of the strings as he sawed away. And then a little later, he says, you make life when you play. I said, you create something from nothing. You make something good happen. And that is blessed to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

So this is part of, like, this whole.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love this description. I love how often Nikki's. The way it's described. Nikki playing the violin is violent terms like sawing at the violin. The way his fingers hammer down on the string. Like, this is just the language that Anne Rice uses in this description of how Nikki plays. And I love this language she uses about the glittering and all this. It's as close to the ecstasy that Lestat will later feel in vampirism here in mortality. Right. It's just sort of this transportive, otherworldly thing. And then the Lestat in the book here, he has this long sort of falling out with the church and with God because his beloved mother is dying. And he's just sort of like, I don't know that I believe in anything in the afterlife. And this is when he says to Nikki, like. Like, you make. Like, you are the divine to me. You make life when you play. You create something from nothing. You make something good happen that is blessed to me. Right? The act of creation, the act of art is a blessed thing. And so to think about all of that and then apply it to the rock star Lestat and. And you know, how he talks about the music at the end of this episode, that it, like, pulls him forward and keeps him going. That this is his. Like, this is his God at the end of the day.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was, I thought, incredibly clarifying in terms of, like, understanding why we find Lestat in this mode of choice now, right? And when he says to Daniel, like, early in the stretch of the interview, beginning in this episode, he's like, you're kind of, like, missing it, right? It's about pure expression. And again, how much of that is true? How much of that is that? That pure expression is a way to attempt to right the record, the wrongs and the record and convey his version of the truth. It's all of it, right? That's all in the mix. But I thought that this was, like, a really great stretch of the episode that felt very much the show and miniature. You go from caught masturbating in a field with a few sick oxen. Iconic, hysterical, into that. I heard music. The comedy, the levity, then the real emotional insight and the rawness of something that is genuinely true. Right? And to understand, you know. Cause we have, like. We have glimpses of Nikki prior to this point, but to really understand, yeah, in this way, in the. Of Lestat Rockstar. Lestat music is my pure expression. Lestat. I'm on the back end of Louis hurting me, right? That music, yes, it's something deeply associated with Nikki and this love that he is, like, still reckoning with and the pain that stemmed from it. But the idea that that was like an awakening, right. That the music was a bridge to love. The music was a bridge to some sort of deep connection. So it's another reason, in addition to that pure expression, the desire to be in the spotl yes, of course. The desire to be worshipped. Yes, of course. That Lestat has, like, chosen this musical life. So I thought that was really illuminating.

[Mallory Rubin]

And, you know, we talked about this early in the season, the fact that he, like, plays the violin on stage. You know, he could play and he does play other instruments, but, like, he plays the violin and that is a direct sort of connective line. And he tries to sort of play it off in. In this version of it in this episode when he's like, you know, if I knew. If I knew then what I know now, I would think it was, like, pedestrian playing or whatever. You know, he doesn't need to make it smaller. It can be as big as it was for him. And it could be as big as two young men from a backwater town in their 20s, going to Paris to be artists, to be a musician and an actor and living in poverty despite the fact that, like, Lestat is from nobility and Nikki is actually from a fairly, like, wealthy family because of his father's trade. But, like, they choose this life of impoverished, like, you know, love you Bohem, basically, in the city. And how romantic that will always be, you know, first love, not my great love, but, like, you know, this just sort of, like, how do you recapture that? Sort of, like. And this is the last time that Lestat. This is the only time that Lestat the human will ever be happy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

And that Lestat the anything will ever be unburdened by the horrors of living with his family back home and the horrors of being a vampire. You know what I mean? Like, this brief, shining love affair that he has with Nikki and being young and an artist in Paris is very sad.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love the parallelism between that description of the quality and caliber of Nikki's play and that first love. Not a great love, because even though it's very clearly revealed to us from what we glimpse in the past and Daniel sort of, like, clocks it in real time. Yeah, sure, you buried yourself in the

[Mallory Rubin]

ground for a century for a not great love.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we sort of know that already. But, like, isn't that often how people describe, like, their first relationship? Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. No, Like, I thought at the time that it was the biggest thing in the world, but, like, was it now that you have some distance from it? But if you look back, like, often, not always, but sometimes, like, you learned something about yourself, at least that was meaningful. It was some sort of formative experience, something shared. And I love how that built inside of the episode to, like, the way that Lestat. Because again, there's this larger umbrella of, like, what is true is, like, at the time, you know, I meant it. I meant it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I meant it, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

And maybe. Does it mean that you come with distance to understand that you didn't mean it as much as you thought you did or that you've had to talk yourself out of that because you have some. Like, I have matured and grown and lived all this life. And so how can that possibly have meant as much to me as it felt like it did? But, like, maybe it did?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that. I love that. I think that we talked about this when we talk about Buffy, this idea, those teenage feelings and how enormous they feel and how, like, everything just feels like life and death. Now he's 29, not a teenager, but, like, whatever. But, like, you Know that young first love. And I agree with you. I think there is this tendency to want to make it smaller than it was because you feel foolish thinking about how big it felt to you at the time. You know, it felt like the whole world to you. He does the blah, blah, blah, bipolar boyfriend quote that you cited earlier. The yada, yada, yada, turned into a vampire. So, like, the way we're pulling back the layers on the Nikki trauma, right? Blah, blah, blah, bipolar boyfriend is just, like, such a speedrun of this horrible thing we're about to witness with Nikki and yada, yada, yada, yada, vampire. I mean, finding out. And it's interesting, Sam Reed was saying in the official podcast that he. He had said before the season started that there was a script he read that he threw across the room. When he read it, he threw his computer across the room, and he said it was this script because he did it halfway through. He saw how they were going to introduce Magnus with this, like, music video, and he was like, oh, no. I've based my entire. Like, I have justified a lot of what my character has done based on the traumatic way in which he was assaulted and abused and turned.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And if we're gonna make a joke out of that, what is my entire thing? So he, like, I threw the laptop across the room. He's like. Then I read the rest of the episode, and I was like, oh, this is what we're doing. You know? So, like, that. That sort of. It is so key, as you said at the very beginning. It's so key to understanding who Lestat is. His relationship to Louis, his relationship to Claudia, his relationship to music is all sort of laid out in this episode. And I think it's done really, really well. It's done with expediency. I think for people who are used to chapters and chapters and chapters of the Nicky and Lestat relationship, this will feel like a bit of a speedrun. But I think it's done much more effectively than the, you know, Averon flashbacks were, so.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no question. Yeah, no question. I thought both in what we got to glimpse in the actual flashbacks, but also in the present day of hearing Lestat engage with this. Like, I loved the when. When Daniel called bullshit on the first love. Not a great love line. I thought that response from Lestat, I carried the box because I destroyed him, Dan. I carried the box to remind me what I was capable of. That's a really great way to capture everything we're talking about, how much of this is about specifically Nikki and the guilt and culpability and shame and loss and grief and regret and despair Lestat feels because of Nikki. Some of it, for sure. But how much of it is like, what transpired revealed something to Lestat about himself and about what he was capable of and about the impact he could have on the people in his life who he loved at one point, whether he did his fully anymore or not.

[Mallory Rubin]

So then you could.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's always something you carry with you moving forward anytime someone becomes close to you.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think specifically, like in this episode, we get a couple promptings from Gabrielle for. For Daniel to ask about the great conversion.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

So this idea of the great conversion of, like, let's just make a bunch of other vampires. Right. Well, here we are examining the. The trauma of how Lestat was turned.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And his most traumatic, or maybe not even because of Claudia, but like, the very traumatic result of Lestat turning people. He has not sired a ton of people in his life. And so what it. What does it mean to be a sire and how horrifying that can be at the end of the day and how with Louis, like, it's actually kind of a best case with Louis, oddly enough, you know, at the end of the day here.

[Joanna Robinson]

So Nikki chopping off the hand. Death by fire. Gabriella, really loud bathroom sex in a very crowded public space. Louis, you have to do either of

[Mallory Rubin]

those things in exactly that form. How do you feel about Sofia Yarda and that Dan Wiig walking into a bathroom?

[Joanna Robinson]

And I thought this was hysterical and incredible forever.

[Mallory Rubin]

How I watch Pride and Prejudice.

[Joanna Robinson]

This was my favorite Gabriella moment by a mile. This was so funny. The, like, can you, like, you know, was this kind of, like, distracting?

[Mallory Rubin]

Can you go in there?

[Joanna Robinson]

And the, like, orgasmic shrieks at being interrupted, the accent.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have some questions. This choice. I have no questions, no notes.

[Joanna Robinson]

But actually, I guess not orgasmic shriek because the feedback later was like, you know, it was like three good minutes. And then.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then his wig is like, slipping. Yara's wig is, like, slipping, much like the wigs did slip in that flashback sequence. And also he just has this look on his face of like, what the fuck is happening right now? What's going on? I am disturbed. I love this. And I love this as, like, it's a narrative vice because it is distract. Like, all the levels that Sam Reid has to play in this. Like, the way his eyes keep tracking Gabrielle and Yarda and, like, what's going on there? So, like, his distraction there, the sounds, that distraction, what he's revealing to Dan and what he's not revealing to Dan. He does slip, right? I think he slips when he says that his mom was there. And Daniel's like, what do you mean your mom was there?

[Joanna Robinson]

Your mom? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What are you talking about?

[Joanna Robinson]

COVID it up with quickness. Gabriella, too, is like, what are you doing? What are you about to do? She's right here.

[Mallory Rubin]

My heart. Right, great. You know, and then the honest, traumatic memories that are sort of trying to. To bubble to the surface at the same time. But it's a great narrative device because we're distracted by that. And that's right when Lestat sort of pulls his glamour, like, you're in my eyeline. Right? That's our clue that. That's when he pulls the sort of glamour trick and it happens, like, right around here. Pop up video. Magnus Edition. You're a biggest fan music video. You texted me that you were quite disturbed by the Magnus character design. I just want to read the description from the book, because I just feel like they absolutely, absolutely nailed it. Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Please.

[Mallory Rubin]

Huge black eyes seeming to stretch the white flesh in deep folds. The nose, long and thin, and the mouth of the jester's smile. There were the fanged teeth just touching the colorless lip. And the hair, a gleaming mass of black and silver, growing up high from the white forehead and flowing down over his shoulders and his arms. I think that he laughed. I was beyond terror. I could not even scream. And when you think about someone is cocksure as Lestat, being beyond terror, could not even scream at the horror that is Magnus, who. Who would come and watch him perform nightly in the audience and then kidnaps him and takes him back to his tower, his lair, where there are all these bodies of young men who look like Lissa. Yeah, like. And then it's all wrapped up in this sort of, like, gauzy 1980s music video presentation. When Magnus started, like, lip syncing to this song, I kind of died and went to heaven. I thought it was so funny.

[Joanna Robinson]

This stretch was great. This was obviously so upsetting and will grow even more upsetting over the course of the episode. He is so scary. And obviously some of that is conveyed in the character design. But I think, frankly, there's a way to actually make you complicit as a viewer, if you like, just because of that or, like, this guy. So it can't just be that. It has to be the fact that he's sitting at the long table. The long table that he will then later invoke in, like, the soul at the long table, right? It's 68 courses. It's like we're getting close to the Westerosi royal wedding course list there. My goodness, the portrait. The portrait of Lestat, the premeditated nature of this hunt and abuse and destruction was so disturbing. And, you know, not to jump ahead, but, like, to prime for something. We'll talk about more later when we get to the loony stretch where he is recounting, in Claudia's words, her rape, her abuse, her assault. When we're cutting to what is happening with Magnus and Lestat, and it is undeniable what we are seeing. We hear the way that Claudia is describing the aspects of that that she has carried with her, right. And what that has done to her. We'll talk about that. Lestat's version of this is to say my. My abuser, my liberator. Right? To turn this horrible, horrific thing that has happened to him and to not let anybody see the horror and to instead say, that's not what happened. Right. Which is so deeply painful, but obviously also very clarifying in terms of what it tells us about how he has internalized the horrific things that have been done to him that are not his fault.

[Mallory Rubin]

And this is a truth that he can't even tell Daniel in this glamoured moment. It only comes to us in the car. Haunting sequence. But I think that, like, the long table language was so interesting to me. Cause I was like, surely this is a reference to something specific in the book. But I couldn't find anything. And so then I was thinking. I've been wondering. In the opening credits, we get this long table imagery where it's like, in the opening credits, it's like this beautifully set long table and then flashes to, like, rot. And then it's like the long table is inside, and then it's, like, out in the woods. And so I was just thinking about, like, obviously the long table of his of, like, where all of the family scenes took place. And that was like, you know, him as a young kid versus him as a predator. Like, he comes back and he just turns that into, you know, a horror. And then this idea of Magnus, like, with the wine, the bottle of wine, which is like a very long sequence in the book, but the bottle of wine and the candles and this beautiful table that he set. But, like, this is the. This. This. The. Lestat is the feast here. When he talks about when. When dream, Magnus, ghost. Magnus is talking about the long table and the endless courses of souls, he caps it with, when are you releasing an album Right. And Lestat's like, when we're ready or like, whatever. But, like, we're. When we're good enough, but. But it goes back to that Baudelaire thing we were talking about, which is just sort of like feasting on the pain. Yeah. You know, wanting more, to consume more and more of Lestat. The soul, the dishes of your soul are endless food for the masses. At least about a thousand of them. Certainly not 8,000 of them, but at least about 8,000 of them.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, couldn't get to 8,500 stuff. I like to. I think that. What are you. What are you feasting on? And what are you. What is somebody taking from you? How are they feeding on you? What are you then trying to offer up to the masses as you.

[Mallory Rubin]

And keep for yourself.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. What are you keeping for yourself? I think there's also something really effective about taking, like, a familial setting or an intimate setting. Right. That could be a table that you shared with a partner. That could be a table that you shared, as we saw in the episode two flashbacks, as you noted, with a family and the idea that there is no safe harbor. Right. Especially when we're talking about Gabriella with Lestat or obviously Claudia, given the way that Louis. Their relationship. Right. This, like, adopted sibling, it was very like father, daughter, but obviously brother, sister. That's a family behind the idea of, like, protecting each other, deciding to care for each other. What. You know, again, in this episode, obviously, Lestat never misses an opportunity to

[Mallory Rubin]

pick

[Joanna Robinson]

at Armand and to, like, feel deeply wounded and insulted if other people praise Armand. But, you know, is it. You're absent, but very much alive father walking around that gives you this lowly idea of yourself to Daniel. So it's a shot at Armand, but once again, it's like, well, what is that relationship supposed to mean and provide? And when you feel the heightened absence of that. So, like, dinner table, just an effective visual for, like, how warped and weaponized

[Mallory Rubin]

family dynamics that could be. And like, Sam Reid has spoken very eloquently about the. The way that the incest is used inside of the story and the warping of. He's like the maternal bond, the maternal child bond is so sacred. So for that energy to be warped into this sexual energy instead is such a, like, enduringly damaging thing to do. These ideas of absent fathers. Like, you know, I wrote this down on the notes. But, like, Magnus, you don't really understand why he's sort of, like, absent from the rest of the story inside of this episode. But like, he turns Lestat, he's like, hey, all of my money's over there. You can have it. You're my heir. But I'm gonna kill myself right now. And then he doesn't give Lestat any instruction on how to be a vampire. And in the book, Armand sort of jeers at Lestat about that. He's like, your mother didn't teach you how to read. She didn't give a shit about you. And your sire didn't teach you how to be a vampire. Did no one ever care enough about you to teach you anything? And, like. And so when you think about that, and then you think about Lestat turning Louis and all the instruction and care he gave to. I mean, it's twisted and demented, but, like, in his way, the instruction and care he gives Louis or the way he teaches Claudia to hunt like, all of these things are him doing it differently than was done for. And to him, even with Nikki, again,

[Joanna Robinson]

like, that brings Nikki back to mind for me as well. Because when Lestat finds him, it's the music, but it's also a conversation about their fathers. Their fathers. What did he really say? He wanted me to teach you to be a man. Then it becomes very flirtatious. Right? You gonna show me how to be a man? Yeah. And it's very sexual. And we glimpse the. You know, the extent of their desire. But there's also this, like, my father doesn't think I'm good enough.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

He doesn't think I'm the man I'm supposed to be.

[Mallory Rubin]

What did he really say? He's the backdrop for everything. Yeah. This idea that Lestat is calling Magnus his liberator versus his tormentor. It is very complicated. In the books, he gets turned and all of a sudden his fear turns into something else because it's just sort of. It's quite complicated, this idea of this godlike figure who has turned you into a godlike figure and what that means. But I love this email we got from our listener, Jessica who said it was an extended therapy session for Lestat. And the whole episode picks apart how we, as people, process their trauma through art. There's the superficial and the pure, and they both have a place. Lestat has always been an artist and found escape and expression through that. He overcame his stutter and found his bliss as an actor performing in commedia dell' arte as Lilio, not Harlequin Armand. That heightened, stylized version of reality was his salvation, an escape from his past. Even his Persona as the wolf killer was a put on to protect himself from his trauma. What he really loved and could not achieve himself was the quote, pure music that Nikki produced. His performance was so compelling, though it had captured the wrong kind of love and attention and brought Magnus into his life. And things get worse from there. This is a cycle. He'll repeat the facade of who he pretends to be, obscuring who he is and wants to be. Now, in the present day, he's still performing a heightened, cliche version of reality with his music. His music, like the commedia, is dated and over the top, portraying the past as. As pastiche and easily digestible form. This time as a corny music video. But then there's the reality. Those diary pages that were ripped out because the trauma was so great. Those awful, secret moments that can only be addressed in violence and revenge, like Louis does. That's what he can only touch when recounting his failures and running away. Lestat is only able to banish Magnificent Ghost when he experiences a moment of pure, wordless musical perfection. There's no artifice, just the music. And he gets a little bit of catharsis there. But will it be enough or will the cycle happen again? And then yada, yada, yada, Akasha. So I thought that was great. This idea of, like, artificial art is expression art as a passage to a deeper truth, but also art as like a mask for the realities of what you're doing. You could do both.

[Joanna Robinson]

Both, absolutely.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Lisat often does. All right, Nikki, round two.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

How did all of this work for you?

[Joanna Robinson]

I just thought this was great. Yeah, I guess we've hit on some of this already. But, yeah, I thought this was, like, totally harrowing and gripping. Just so upsetting to watch the. I think again, especially this felt like a really good way to link past and present on a number of levels. Because part of what a lot of this is inside of their relationship, Nikki is like, I loved. You know, I want you to. I want you to love it enough to, like, love me enough to give it to me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

This idea of what. How central are you in another person's life if they're your entire world? Right. That's just like, oof. That's the kind of core text of all of it for everything. Right. That really got me this idea that you could have this great love with somebody. Something has changed, you know? And Nikki's like. Nikki has his struggles, but he also is like, don't fucking gaslight me into saying that this is not real. Like, your eyes are different, right.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're leaving There are bite marks on my arm. What the fuck are you talking about?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, so all of that was great. And Lestat might have a more noble intention there of wanting to. To protect him, wanting to soothe him, not wanting to expose him to something that is horrific. And for Lesat, as we will see later in the episode and just hinted at, like, connected to. There's a new level of power and immortality, but also this, like, gaping, raw wound of this horrible thing that he has just suffered through. There's all of that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Gabriella is also there, right? And she's saying the things about Nikki to Lestat that we already talked about. But, like, I liked the way that Nikki was talking about her too. Like, what is she doing here? What happened? What aren't you telling me? Just that dynamic especially. Cause as we noted last week, there was the, like, what does Louis know about me? Exchange between Gabrielle and Lestat. So this feels like very expertly done to me through three episodes connecting these relationships and different. Different people, different times in Lestat's life. But Gabriella is here and that's relevant for both of these relationships. So I thought that was interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that's really smart. And I think that. I don't know, I'm just so disturbed by Gabriela in this sequence and all of this. I think Joseph Potter, who plays Nikki, does a tremendous job with this unraveling. And I thought Assad Zaman being back as Armand was fantastic. His, like, pining for Lestat in the box where he's like, I love you, Lestat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lestat goes, christ, that was so good.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's not room enough in this box for your desperation. Absolutely killed me.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gabriella has her own agenda here. She asks Armand about his maker, Marius, an evil quote older than him. Everyone has their own daddy issues in this show. Armand's like, I don't want to talk about my maker. We heard about him in season two, but as you mentioned, like, a lot of this stuff was already in season two. We got sort of like the Armand kidnapping Nikki and tormenting him and Lestat saving him and all that sort of stuff. But I think this is. This is so hard to watch. Interesting adaptive changes here, where in the book, Lestat and Gabrielle have left because he and Nikki are not getting along anymore. It has soured. It's soured partially because when Lestat becomes a vampire, he can see inside of Nikki's head and he's like, oh, this is much darker in here than I knew it was. So that's tough. Tough Reality. For those of us who are in therapy, it's okay. Some people can see your internal self and be still. Love you. It's fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

I expect more empathy from Largai Lestat, honestly.

[Mallory Rubin]

But also, like, then Nikki is angry. And then Nikki's love turns to hate and all this sort of stuff. Like, but Lestat leaves, but he's like, please take care of Nikki. And Armand's like, oh, I surely will. And then Armand takes Nikki's hands off to try to, like, get him in line because Nikki's just, like, running around the city turning people. Speaking of the great conversion. Nikki has just, like, no control and is just running around and converting people to vampire in, like, plain daylight. And that's captured here in the orchestra pit scene scene where he, like, turns around, just, like, shouts about the tirata de vampire and stuff like that. But so Lestat's gone and he's like. They're like, okay, by the way. Like, his other vampire friends are like, by the way, Armand took his hands and pushed put the violin in the room where he locked him. And that's kind of tough because he has no hands. And, you know. But Iman's like, I was gonna put them back. Like, I was just trying to get him in line. I was gonna put him back, no problem. But then Nikki decides to dance his own ass into a bonfire and burns and dies, all while Lestat is gone. So the change to make Lestat there for this, to make Nikki the one who takes his own hands and then to make Armand more actively involved. Not in a tormentor sense, but almost in, like, a. It's a mercy what he does here. It's a gift for Lestat and it's a gift for Nikki at the end of the day. So this is actually like, a more sympathetic shading of some of the information we had about Armand. Because in Season two, when Lestat's on trial and Santiago's talking about Nikki and he's like, he took his own life. And Lestat's like, with some help. And then looks at Armand, you know? So for book readers are like, yeah, because Armand took his hands off and made him, like, even more unhinged than he already was. But in this version, it's like, Armand helped by pushing him into the fire and using a poker to keep him there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

So that's an interesting change that I'm not upset about. I'm just curious about are we trying to shade Armand as a more sympathetic figure at the end of the day here or what the intention or what the result is from that, I like

[Joanna Robinson]

that it connects to a lot. A little more of a sympathetic portrait of Armand there, but also, like how this connects to Lestat looking back and what level of clarity is he able to bring when he does? Right. So in real time, you know, you have Gabriella saying, as I warned you, his mind is curdled. Couldn't be less sympathetic, couldn't be less open hearted and kind and inclined.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cheering, mocking.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Horrific. Very, very, very upsetting.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then he's like, she went to coffin. Like, she just went to bed.

[Joanna Robinson]

She went to coffin.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's just like, bye. I don't want to deal with this.

[Joanna Robinson]

The, like, plea in Lestat's voice when he says to Armand, the desperation. Can you help him, please? Wanting to provide to, to, to ease Nikki's burden in some way. And then with distance, the idea that Lestat, both. Because I, as we hear in this episode, he's blaming himself. Right. For. I didn't think that this was the right thing for Nikki. I got kind of, like, talked into it, maybe against my better judgment. And I ushered him in to a type of life that led to this outcome. Right. Am I ready to face that? Obviously, he, on some level really is carrying that with him and feels that guilt and shame that's very present, I think, in this episode. But isn't it easier also to just blame someone else for that? So to say, like, well, Armand, Armand, wasn't this on you? That feels very true to the spirit of Lestat where he is really actually introspective and deeply aware of his own insecurities and shortcomings. But so much then of how he lives his life is to mask or spread the blame. Yeah. Or to try to, like, overcorrect in some capacity to balance out the scales.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. There's some sort of vestigial remains of the idea that they were originally going to do the book version of this. When you have in season two, when Louis and Armand are fighting in San Francisco and Louis says to Armand that half blank, half apocalyptic look, but what does it mean tonight? Do you want to lick my boots or chop my hands off? So Louis's like, I know what you did to Nikki. And then in season two, when at the trial, Lestat recalls talking to Louis about how unwise it is to turn Claudia. And he says, her mind and her spirit will age, but the world will treat her as she is now and she'll be miserable and you will love her and it will spiral beyond your reach. Obviously, he's thinking about Nikki there, and he's just sort of like, if you do this, it is not a gift to her and it will not end well for you. And I know this. What I think is really interesting inside of this episode. You're so right to bring up the blurred lines of the vampire family because it's easy to think about, like, Louis and Lestat as the parents and Claudia as the child, or Louis and Claudia as the children, Lestat as the parent. But the way in which this episode draws the line between Lestat and Claudia as, like, you know, twin flames, I think is really, really interesting. And obviously, like, the show has done that before. You know, Louis connection to Lestat and his connection to Claudia, he has a type, and they're sort of capricious and emotionally volatile and all these other things. But I thought the way, as you mentioned, those two strands are entangled over their assault and their creation inside of this episode, I thought was really, really good.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that. I think just in general, the complexity of everything that the show is seeking to explore, it's just really. It's just a really rich text and very satisfying. Like, I thought that, okay, we just talked about part of Hel. Lestat. Maybe it's about justifying a decision. Maybe it's a real belief. But he's like, I'm, like, freeing Nikki from something. But then what does he say? You know, he's describing it. Nikki made just one sound, a low moan, as though he knew that in death it was a nothingness. And then that's when he, like, starts to hyperventilate. He pulls his mic off. He's like, I'm hungry. I have to get out of here. Confronting that, is it a gift, a reprieve, a permanent reprieve? Maybe. But the other thing that it is is an end, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that's a really heavy thing to have to carry and confront. And also for Lestat, talking about his own immortality, what waits, what awaits if that finally ceases?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's so interesting because this era in Lestat's life, this. This young twenties when he. He has this huge crisis of belief and that. That low moan that O. That perfect circle of the mouth and. And the. The low moaning O. That is a le Experience that he has. That's like a. That's. That's a direct from the book Le no God. And Nikki has to comfort him through it. And he's just sort of like. And he just, like, is moaning and saying, oh. And Nikki's like, you got to get it together. My guy. And then to go through these stages of belief for Lestat. So Lestat is, like, vaguely atheist, doesn't believe that there's an afterlife. And then when he is assaulted by Magnus, he says in God's name, get away. I shouted, I had to believe in God now. I had to. That was absolutely the only hope. I went to make the sign of the cross. And we get that in the real flashback of Magnus. We see Lestat both in the car here and in flashback reciting, you know, not the Lord's Prayer, but. But, you know, biblical passages. Right? And Magnus is like, none of that. Right. Like, okay, then he's turned. So Lestat believes in God when he's, like, being turned. And then once he's turned, if that quote. If there was a God, he did not matter. Now he's part of some dull and dreary realm whose secrets had long ago been plundered, whose lights had long ago gone out. This was the pulsing. This was the pulsing center of life itself around which all true complexity revolves. Ah, the allure of that complexity, the sense of being there. So this idea of, like, once he becomes a vampire, then it's like, it's not. He doesn't believe in God. He's like, God is inconsequential. The afterlife is inconsequential because I live in a. I have. I'm existing on a different level now.

[Joanna Robinson]

You don't swipe God.

[Mallory Rubin]

If that.

[Joanna Robinson]

If that.

[Mallory Rubin]

If that's an incorrect interpretation of this, I'd be curious to hear, because Anne Rice's like, snarl of sort of, like, religion and supernatural and all these other things is something that I am by no means an expert on. So I'd be curious if people have different interpretations. But I find that evolution of Lestat so fascinating. The last thing I want to say about the Nikki trauma and how it echoes through everything in the end of season two, when Louis comes to see Lestat in New Orleans. And Lestat, heartbreakingly, is like, did you hurt yourself?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So thinking about Nikki driven mad by this, you know, Louis has come to thank Lestat for the dark gift he gave him. Right? Yeah. And Lestat's like, did you. Did you hurt yourself? You walked into the sun and tried to, like, kill yourself? And that is like, thinking about Nikki chopping his hands off. And he's like, what have I done to these beautiful boys that I was in love with? You know? And how have I tormented them? And for Louis to come and say, like, it's okay. What you gave me was a Gift, actually, is this incredibly healing moment until the book comes out, you know, and then. Thanks, Daniel Malloy. Thanks so much.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks, Daniel.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, what have we not said about this sort of Magnus in the car, Bruce, Claudia, Louis thing that you want to touch on here?

[Joanna Robinson]

M Boy. I mean, just Jacob Anderson's performance. Holy shit. I think on the Louis character beat front, this is one of the things we were just like, texting about after watching it or God, was it in person? I can't even remember. Terrifying.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Unreliable narrators, all of us. I was so struck. This show has an ability to really bully over with a choice it makes. Louis has brought out the pages.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're pristine.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is a sacred thing in his hand. And the moment has come to read them to Bruce, the person who did this, the monster who did this to Claudia. The pages are there. The words are there. They're preserved, intact. He doesn't need to look at them at all. Every single word of that is in his head. It's in his heart. It's a mark on his soul. And I just thought that was like. Because we see characters who go on quests of vengeance all the time. There was something that was conveyed through that choice. I don't need to look down to know every word of this, every sentiment, every beat of horrific turmoil and despair behind it. And I know when I reached the end, that just, like, really shook me, but in a great way. It was an incredible performance.

[Mallory Rubin]

I really agree. And there was something about the visual of the pristine pages, even though obviously he's read them enough to memorize them. But the pristine pages in this Ziploc bag immediately smeared with blood. Like, you know, the blood of the people, all the vampires that he has killed. And then he will burn them up eventually, you know, but like, there was just something about that of just sort of like, I'm taking this out of the case where it has been, and I'm bringing it into the real world now, and I am smearing it with blood. What did you think of Bruce's Talia esque posture once he got his. His spine ripped out and then his jaw broken?

[Joanna Robinson]

The. The slap slump, you know, no one does it like Talia Ghul. Ultimately, Bruce's. Bruce is second on the power ranking here, but pretty, I thought. I mean, obviously it's like when Louis pulls the spine out and kind of like sends the little bone chips. Yeah. Horrifying the fact that he is then describing something that has been done to Claudia and you understand that he is, like, recreating something Very specific and intentional. Deliberately. It was haunting.

[Mallory Rubin]

I also thought what I loved about the sequence, I mean, I love, is complicated. It was very harrowing to watch, but extremely well done, I thought. The way in which it's just Claudia's words.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, from the moment he sits down and pulls the pages out. Except for the part where he says, like, this is crossed out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just what Claudia said.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, and not him editorializing and not him saying, like, how could you? Or anything like that. It's just in Claudia's words, this letter.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the complicated nature of Claudia talking about how hard it was to like herself after everything that happened. And also the ways in which she, like, made nice with him to a certain degree sometimes the way she did feel connected to him in certain degrees, and how complicated that was and how repulsed she was with herself about that and how that feeds into Lestat and his relationship with Magnus. And now it's like this horrible thing was done to him without his consent. Right. You know, Magnus does in the book, and in here, there's this language about, like, you have to ask for it, but he doesn't ultimately, at the end of the day, he does not ask for it. And he is just sort of like. Like the way the blood is spilled down onto Lestat's mouth and he's spitting it out and it's just like, screaming, horrifying. Pinned. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

The. We have heard these things about Claudia, but I really agree with you. To hear them in her words in such a unvarnished.

[Mallory Rubin]

And.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's no room to escape for the people in the scenes for us at home.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

What has happened here. Right. There is something that is clear and intentional. I think there's a version of the editing choice here that's. That goes wrong. Like, I think there is a way that you could cut between these two things and, like, potentially. And I don't know. I don't actually. I don't actually know. I don't want to, like, imply this, that everybody thought this was well done.

[Mallory Rubin]

They might.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well done. Obviously, this is a. Can be a very personal thing to receive in art, so I want to acknowledge that. Of course, I thought that something that in lesser hands could have really gone poorly and run afoul of some sort of, like, why try to imply a link between.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Assaults. I thought that what this did to help us understand an experience and an atrocity that is so personal and individual and specific to them, but also helps us understand the emotional space that they're inhabiting. But then what they do, what, Claudia, Unless that. The choices that they make that are very different as a result of the things that have happened to them, but

[Mallory Rubin]

also the choices they make that are the same.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, exactly. Like, what becomes a cover and a mask? What is a pain and a wound that guides you? And, like, obviously, a really awful aspect in that is explored in art and shows and books, but of real life is that often victims of atrocities feel like they need to, like, justify what has happened to them. That is just a horrible, true thing, right. That happens to people. And so, like, I think there's something really powerful and poignant about seeing how two characters, like, dealt with a version of that. So I thought this was, like, really upsetting, but in an effective way that helped me understand the characters, the show and the aspects of humanity that it is interested in exploring. And what an immortal life, what a longer life does to you. Some of that is. I have more time now to lean into my power and to make changes and to discover something new about myself that I didn't get to do before. And some of it is a longer road to carry your own pain with you. I thought this sequence at the end of the episode captured that in a way that was pretty astonishing to me. So I just really, really loved it. And then, you know, there are also the moments like, obviously, I think it's important, as you already said, I think it's a great point that this is very much about Claudia and Lestat. It is also still true that we do see things about Louis. Like, he's so composed. There's a break, though. He gets up and he. I mean, he's ripped Bruce's spine out, to be clear. But, like, that moment where he gets up and just, like, tears his lip off, basically. Little things like that. And even, you know, I guess on the. Not to shift gears from the really intense subject matter here into, like, the. Ooh, what are we being primed for in a kind of, like, larger, like, lore mythology of the moment from. But, you know, we should note that just the wall. You know, you had noted.

[Mallory Rubin]

You had.

[Joanna Robinson]

You had remarked upon the honey trap language from Lestat in the beginning of the season for baby janks. So obviously that's like. And, you know, we had seen the killer tattoo. So this is all like her. The relationship with Bruce, all of that is confirmed. But getting to this farm, the house and the. The blanketing of Armand told the truth. Armand told the truth. And these pictures of Lestat everywhere. So this question of just, like, what

[Mallory Rubin]

is going on what's the larger agenda? Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is it Bruce? Does it originate with Bruce? Or is there a bigger conspiracy here?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And like, there was that little nugget earlier too from Daniel where he was talking about the Feng gang. Like it was. This was organized and he's like, different from the other two attempts on your life on the tour. It's like there were a lot of little things like that in the episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

Harbingers. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Portents and signs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Signs and portents.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I thought Louis respond because, like, you know, we have Lestat constantly ripping Armand, but Louis was like, what the fuck does that mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which was really interesting too. So I thought that was. It's hard to. Really hard to balance all these things in one episode of tv. But this episode managed to do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Managed to do it all with backing track of T Rex's Jewel, which is like, I love. We already got a T. Rex mention this season of just sort of like the way in which Lestat's band is

[Joanna Robinson]

like a bit of a T. Rex ripoff.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, like, to play some actual T. Rex here was incredible. Again, I love that band. But what did you make of. You know, Delaney comes in as the. This new. This waitress character. We had already heard Louie talk about this. Talk about this. But then we see him there back at the diner and. And there she is. A different accent, right? The actress's native accent. She gets to be British.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

How do you feel about that?

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought this was really interesting and good. I mean, the fact that Louis, like every other character, feels pulled back into the past and this unescapable ghosts. The ghosts. I was chasing a ghost. Louis found Bruce and turned him into a pile of ash. After pulling his spine out and getting to read Claudia's words to him. Did he then say, and now I feel better?

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

He went and sought out that ghost who he. We had just heard him last episode say, and it wasn't her. But the idea that you could find your way to approximating the. This thing that you can't let go of is like very sad. Very. I think it's like he wants to

[Mallory Rubin]

tell her like I did.

[Joanna Robinson]

I did it, but he can't.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it's too late. It's too late for actual Claudia.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's gone. And so this is like. So in a particular set of circumstances that we as non vampires obviously can't understand. There's something so I think relatable about this idea that, like, you would always be thinking about the thing you didn't get to say to somebody. Who was gone.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

But also, it's like, I worry for Louis, so it warms me to him, but, like, it makes me concerned.

[Mallory Rubin]

Plus, all of this was an errand that the Talamasca sent him on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what I mean? Or at least Raglan sent him on. So what is the larger agenda there? Was it just cleaning up fentanyl distribution in the Michigan area? Or what was their agenda and what the rules of, like, who vampires can kill? This is obviously, like, a huge part of season two, right? Louis and Claudia are on trial because they tried to kill Lestat, and that's against the rules. Only a coven leader can kill. So, like, Armand can kill Nikki because Nikki's in his coven. So he's allowed to. As the coven that does not break any laws. But Louie's like, fuck your vampire laws and has been, like, you know, for a while. So, like, all the people that he killed at the end of season two and all by people, I mean vampires. And all the vampires that he killed here, like, technically, this is against the vampire law for him to do this. But it's like, you know, when Daniel's killing them and Sam's killing them and Lestat's killing them. So, like, the wheels are coming off these ancient rules.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our main characters are like, fuck your rules. Which, yeah, feels exciting and right. And also, like, a little bit of quicksand for the characters to all exist on, I think whether it's something like a structure and a group like the Talamasca or, you know, what is going on with these various covens in different places. The Great Conversion. What sort of uniting threat is there around all of this? Even something. Again, I think the way that the episode connected very intimate, personal things with the larger macro text was really impressive because to go back to the Claudia Lestat reveals there's a version of. Okay. Lestat has told Daniel a really true thing. He has also withheld certain things that we, as you know, will access. In the car sequence with Magnus and the spin and the crash, Magnus in his crisp white tea with a fit change mid hallucination.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I like that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lestat is like, I don't owe you my truth. Right? In a story that is about what is true and interrogating that and challenging the characters, it's like. Like, you can decide what part of yourself and your experiences to share with somebody. Like, that's not up to them.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's up to you.

[Joanna Robinson]

But whether it's like, we're making this documentary or I'm recording the failures or there are These bodies, like the Talamasca, who are trying to point us towards something. Or what is Gabrielle up to? What's gonna happen with Kasha? It's like, well, somebody is trying to. To gain access to or weaponize something at every point.

[Mallory Rubin]

Worrying last but not least. Well, we've got one coda after this. But like the song Loneliness, which I loved, and this idea of silence. I just want to sort of run through some textual stuff here. So there's this. You know, I'm just gonna pull a Daniel Malloy here and look at some lyrics, right? Some of the lyrics in Loneliness are don't worship that grave dug on your own. Don't burn alone. I think that's about Nikki, right? Like, this idea that, like, Nikki in the book is, like, wants to become a vampire because it's him leaning closer into the skid of death more than it is. I want to be immortal. I want to be powerful. So don't worship that grave. Don't burn alone. Like, all of that. But this idea of the nature of silence and loneliness as a maker. So. So, like, once in the book, once Lestat turns Nikki and Gabriella, Gabrielle, Sophia, whatever you prefer, he can no longer hear their thoughts, but they can hear each other. And the book spends. Like, they spend a good amount of time talking to each other. Gabrielle tries to train Nikki, all this other stuff like that. And the same thing happens with Louis and then Lestat, like Louis and Claudia. So, like, Lestat is on the outside of Louis and Claudia can talk to each other telepathically. Nikki and Gabriella can talk to each other telepathically.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

But the maker cannot hear that. And how isolating that is. This is a quote from the book. The dark trick never brings love, you see, it brings only. I think this is Armand talking. Brings only the silence. We used to say it was Satan's will that the master and the fledgling not seek comfort in each other. It was Satan who had to be served, after all. But this idea of, like. This idea of loneliness for Lestat and how disconnected he feels from his mother despite their unnatural closeness from Nikki, from Louis, from Claudia. How he's just on the outside of all and the people that he is like, who are reaching for him. Armand, he does not want. You know what I mean? So just like, how lonely all of that feels to him and how he tries to sate that loneliness by performing to at least a thousand people. You know, sort of thing. There's also that moment where Gabriella and Magnus, the real Gabriella and the vision of Magnus turn and walk out during the performance. I loved that. And again, this is like. This goes back to this idea of, like, Gabriel and Magnus both declining to parent Lestat in a way that was helpful for him. Is this him exorcising demons? Like, you know, Nikki stays, by the way, but Magnus walks out and Gabriela walks. Walks out. Right, right. Is he exercising demons there or.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are they turning their back on his plaintive cry of like, who will ever. How could anybody ever love you? You know? And they just, like, coldly turn their back on him. They ne. This is a quote for the book. They never satisfy you. The ones you make in silence. The estrangement and the resentment only grow. It's devastating. She, Nikki left him, Claudia left him, Louis left him, Gabrielle left him. You know, like, blah, blah. Magnus left him. Lestat sad.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like he's better off without Magnus, but it's. You know what?

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. And also Gabrielle, I would say. And also kind of Nikki, who was annoying me at the end, and. But Louis and Claudia. Okay, man. Last but not least, Vampires Anonymous.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's. Oh, Alex.

[Mallory Rubin]

Alex Danger.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, he was warned. I got real as soon as the camera started to pan around this circle. I was like, let's fucking go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Arm on arm on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really happy and excited to see him. And obviously the. Like, I'm an addict. Vampirism as a form of addiction.

[Mallory Rubin]

Betty calls himself Arun, his original name.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really?

[Mallory Rubin]

And yeah, I thought Assad, like, we should be scared for Alex. He is most likely there for Alex. Like, there's no way that's a coincidence. However, yeah. What's true about what Armand is saying there? I'm an addict. I mean, I mean, if you think about him in that box and he's like, I love you, listat. It's incredible the way he was with Louis, too.

[Joanna Robinson]

There were a lot of moments in this episode where I think we got to see ourselves on screen. Just, like, not being able to help but burst out, I love you, Lestat. Really one of them, I thought. Also Lestat, before he kind of puts on the COVID of, like, I'm just fucking with you. The genuine obvious. Like, I'm as stressed out as I've ever been and I'm having a panic attack break when he's like, 40. 40 shows in 43 days and no one cares. I was like, I'm pretty sure I shouted that to Adam last night. You're like, eight podcasts in four days.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nobody cares.

[Joanna Robinson]

Relatable, Relatable content.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have a long day in front of Us today. Okay, let's go down to book spoilers.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, tell me.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, so Akasha has pyrokinetic powers, so she can just, like, look at a vampire and they. They burst into flame. That's the thing that she can do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Amazing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very special.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But did not, as far as I could determine, ever explode a Toronto skyscraper? Okay, so. Okay, I don't know if this is her, Like, I guess those could extend to, like, blowing up vampires and also just blowing up buildings, I suppose. But if this is Akasha, it's earlier than anyone would expect her to enter the plot. So if she's just, like, already here causing blackouts and taking down skyscrapers and just, like, doing her shit in the background. Yeah, that's earlier than anyone would expect her to be here. Or is it the Talamaska for some reason? Or is it Raglan for some reason? I don't. I genuinely don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

The answer to that, I'm curious to find out, but I don't know. Is it Armand? I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Could be. Maybe it's just a lot of home runs from the Toronto Blue Jays.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is just a book spoiler section where I'm like, I don't know what's happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is there anything on the Regina Claudia front that's worth noting here? Like, what?

[Mallory Rubin]

This is not a character.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, so this is.

[Mallory Rubin]

So there's, like, Claudia's ghost haunts Lestat and Louis, and there is, like, a. Like, a attempted, like, seance to connect to Claudia and stuff like that. So, like, will they use this, like, vessel for that or something like that? Is that what's happening here, or is it just a way to have Delaney in the show? I don't know, but it's, like. It's definitely a departure, but it could connect back to some of these other things that happened.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I'm curious. Like, is Louis just. Like, I'm not ready to let go, and I need to be around this person who reminds me of Claudia, who is gone, even though I know it's not Claudia.

[Mallory Rubin]

Does she actually look like that? Or, like, if someone shows up, is it gonna. Is she gonna not look that much like Claudia?

[Joanna Robinson]

Great question. You know, I don't know, but I was wondering, is he gonna. Is this, like, a vessel? Is he gonna find. Is he gonna try to find some way to restore some essence inside of this form?

[Mallory Rubin]

That was the other thought I had about Daniel, because, again, I would be. I don't have any book context for, like, Daniel's death, but the Language is like a brief. I wrote down the wrong word. It's not inconsequential, it's incidental. Life is a vampire.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is there any way he likes gets unturned as a vampire? So it's not that he dies, he's just no longer a vampire.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, is that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh my goodness.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know. I have no book context for that. But I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Geez.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I was just like. Is that the way they get around the language of like? But. But when Jinx is like he dies bad. In terms of Daniel, that seems specific. Is it just Boghossian's like I'm. I'm. I've given you three seasons of so much sass I bear. You know, I'm like bared my ass for you in the bus shower.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like a mid bus tush shower. I've had to pour both Chardonnay and Gatorade. Tough one for Gatorade, by the way.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's interesting that it wasn't the yellow Gatorade. It was like the white clear ish Gatorade.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love a Gatorade. Oh, I mean a Gatorade frost is like delicious.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love well poured down the urinal.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I love a Gatorade Frost especially like out on the beach. Wonderful. Yeah. On the Daniel Theat like harbinger front too. I thought the I was I again I have no clue. But I was wondering the a mean spirited telepath telepathic prank. A price pride. A price paid for amusing my muses. It brought poor Dan to his knees and seated a hate for me inside him. There to be watered in the sunlight later like hate seated watered in the sunlight. Felt like such specific.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know what that is a bit okay. In that like Armand is a day one walk like day walker.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. Which salamander was happy to share. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

So like water like Kenny. The idea of like gifts being passed down from your maker to you. Right. So like can Dan da.

[Joanna Robinson]

So it's not. It's not just the low hanging balls gift.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well but you need your maker to. To show you what what you've been given. Lestat has the cloud gift. There's some people asking if Louis had the cloud gift in this episode. But I just think he just had mad hopps getting up on that portico above. Above the front porch there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Real like Jar Jar Binks dunking energy

[Joanna Robinson]

from Louis when talking about Jar Jar.

[Mallory Rubin]

But Armand is a daywalker.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so Daniel could be a daywalker.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, it would be helpful if Daniel is gonna still pretend to be a Pulitzer worthy journalist if he could interview sources during the day.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just throwing that out there watered in the sunlight. Interesting, interesting. Great detail for you to note. All right. Anything else?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that's it. I'm excited to. I'm sad there are only four episodes left, but I'm excited to watch episode four and see what happens next.

[Mallory Rubin]

Please keep the emails coming. Hobbitsanddragonmail.com I really appreciate everyone's insights. Fantastic stuff from you all. Thank you to our coven here. Jacob Cornett, Carlos Chiraboga, Scott Lee, Arjuna Ringopel, and Jomi Adeneron Squad. We'll be back with a deep dive of House of the Dragon amongst many other podcasts that we are recording this week. We're fine. This is fine. I'm fine.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Bye.

[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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