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- [00:08]
Rob Meyerson
Welcome to How Brands Are Built, where branding professionals get into the details of what they do and how they do it. I'm your host, Rob Meyerson. Thanks for listening. Today's guest is Alex Senter, a designer, podcaster and founder of the award winning design and branding studio Center. From 2006 to 2017, he worked for the Coca Cola company, helping build the brands Vitamin Water, Powerade and Smart Water. Today, he and the team at center are building the next generation of icon brands, partnering with companies like the United Sodas of America, Apple, Haywear, Goodlight, New Balance, Simulate and Liquid Death. Alex is also a big fan of Designing Brand Identity. On the fifth edition, on the back of the book, he wrote that Designing Brand Identity is the book that first taught me how to build brands. For the past decade, it's been my blueprint for using design to impact people, culture and business. And in the sixth edition, which just came out, we wanted to get some of Alex's work in here. So you will see a case study from Center Brand called Catkin, as well as some other projects from center throughout the book. We'll talk about all of them on this episode of the podcast. Here's the conversation with Alex Senter. Alex center, welcome to the podcast.
- [01:33]
Alex Senter
Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
- [01:36]
Rob Meyerson
Great. Thanks for being here. So, you know, you spent a lot of your career at Coca Cola. You were there for about a decade and then you founded Center, I think, in 2018. So I'm just curious what motivated or precipitated that move from, from Coca Cola company over to center. And, and what was that like making that big shift?
- [01:56]
Alex Senter
Yeah, it's a great question. And it happened about six years ago this week. So it's been on my mind as we just had a birthday.
- [02:04]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah. Happy anniversary.
- [02:05]
Alex Senter
Thank you very much. And sort of my career really started at a beverage company called Glasso, which was the maker of Vitamin One and Smart Water. And that was really my first design job professionally. And so Coca Cola acquired that business in 2007 for $4.1 billion. And I was sort of went from working at a entrepreneurial startup beverage company to the world's largest beverage company, Coca Cola. And it was quite a ride. I was there for, as you mentioned, 10 years. And I went from junior designer to regular designer to senior designer to design manager and then director. And so I'd kind of done, I'd done a lot, but I'd also not done. I'd done the same thing for 10 years or so. So I kind of felt like I kind I had the same job in a lot of ways because I was still looking after some of the same brands. Vibrating Water, Smart Water, and Powerade. And so I was always curious about what was next. And I was turning 30 and I started to get a little bit of that existential, what is my life? What am I doing? Like, what's my next step? What's my next career? And quite honestly, had always dreamed of putting my last name on a door and starting a design studio.
- [03:25]
Rob Meyerson
That's a good name for it. I mean, at least your name. Your name's not some impossible to spell Eastern European name.
- [03:32]
Alex Senter
I'm very fortunate in that arena. I never once questioned what the name of the company should be.
- [03:37]
Rob Meyerson
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [03:38]
Alex Senter
But everything else I questioned quite a bit. And ultimately leaving a great job and a very comfortable job and a job that I love doing. For 10 years, I worked with such amazing people and amazing agencies and so many talented people at Coke, and I learned so much. So to walk away from it was quite daunting at the time, but I had sort of done my time and I felt like it was time to bet on myself and, yeah, take a big risk and start my own company. And decided to do that. Yeah. In 2018. And.
- [04:10]
Rob Meyerson
Amazing.
- [04:10]
Alex Senter
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:11]
Rob Meyerson
Seems like. It seems like it's going well. You're sitting in front of some of the awards that you've won, I assume, with Center Design. So I know it's not all about awards, but it also seems like you're having fun. Speaking of which, you have a podcast now called Front and Center, and you mentioned before we started recording that kind of. The point of that is to have fun. I see clips on Instagram. It seems like you and your co host are always kind of cracking each other up. Can you tell me a little bit about that podcast and where the idea came from?
- [04:39]
Alex Senter
Yeah, it's funny, actually. When I was at Cook, I had a dream of launching a design studio, but I also wanted to be more than a designer. And the idea of a show that would talk about the week in culture. Design branding was part of that vision. So when I actually left Coke and had my first website for center, it said Center Design Branding company in Brooklyn. And Front and Center is a weekly show that talks about, you know, design and culture. So it was kind of the two ideas were launched at the same time. The studio took priority because that paid the bills and required much of my time. But I was always really fascinated by so much going on in the world of design. And I'm a big sports Fan. And so I love shows like Pardon the interruption or SportsCenter, where they would, you know, kind of have these talking heads and they would sort of talk about what was going on in that day or week in sports. And I felt like design didn't really have anything like that. And I just wanted to create a show that kind of discussed those topics, but also discussed it in a way that wasn't quite so serious. I think designers are always. Have been taking themselves too seriously for a really long time. And I think as a designer that sort of lived through that and is trying to. Yeah. Change that a little bit. And I think having a show that was entertaining and fun and could talk about design in a very real and honest way was something that I've always been really excited by. And then, you know, I always thought the conversations that designers have inside of a studio, between projects, between meetings, before the day starts, were always so interesting to me because designers have great opinions and great taste and are typically into other things, not just design. Yeah. And so my kind of idea was, what if there was a show that kind of captured some of that conversation or sort of those in between moments and put them into a microphone? And so we wound up starting that show in 2020 during COVID because, you know, it was. Just had a little more time. Yeah, yeah. I just felt like, okay, well, we've always wanted to do this thing, and we even kind of had some taped, like, you know, prep shows before that. But we wound up turning it into a podcast, which it was meant to be like a YouTube show. And then it's, you know, sort of been a podcast ever since.
- [06:56]
Rob Meyerson
And just real quick, who's your co host on the show and what's the sort of format of the show? Is it just the two of you chatting or do you have guests on? Sometimes.
- [07:05]
Alex Senter
So it's both. Kevin Batori is my co host and he's a copywriter here. And Kevin is just like the lovable sort of center sort of champion, I guess. And he just has so many interesting sort of opinions, and he's about 10 years younger than I am, so he kind of represents all young people for me. And yeah, no, the week. The show structure is that each week we talk about the sort of top five topics that are going on in design and branding, and, you know, sort of someone launches a, you know, sort of orange juice seltzer or something. That's crazy that, you know, some sort of, you know, clippers change their uniform.
- [07:41]
Rob Meyerson
Right.
- [07:42]
Alex Senter
And then some things that, like, you know, that are Just always happening. Like Mark Zuckerberg turning into a fashionable icon sort of.
- [07:49]
Rob Meyerson
Is. Is that happening?
- [07:51]
Alex Senter
Yes. Yeah, he is. He's hired a stylist, and he goes to UFC fights in, you know, sherling jackets now. Yeah, it's nice.
- [07:58]
Rob Meyerson
Okay.
- [07:58]
Alex Senter
And so, yeah, we. So we talk about kind of whatever's going on in culture and design and each week, and then we do have guests. So we started incorporating guests into the show, and we talk about their careers a little bit. We talk about what the work that they do, and then we kind of just, you know, fuck around.
- [08:14]
Rob Meyerson
Nice. Nice. You said something earlier about designers taking themselves too seriously. And, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is about Designing Brand Identity, the book by Alina Wheeler. And it just occurs to me that you and Alina had something in common, which. Which is just this sense of humor or this desire for design or designers to take themselves less seriously. Maybe, maybe to take design seriously, but designers taking themselves less seriously. One of the things she said about her book is that it's the. It's the only branding book with a sense of humor, and she would try to infuse it with little jokes and Easter eggs, which you'll catch if you really kind of pore through that book page by page. But I know you've been a big fan and a supporter of that book and of Alina's work. The first time we talked, you said that, you know, you remembered really learning a lot from the book. Can you talk a little bit if you remember sort of when you discovered it and what it's meant to you over the years?
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Alex Senter
Yeah. The first identity. The first edition of Designing Brand Identity was assigned to me as a college curriculum book.
- [09:17]
Rob Meyerson
Great.
- [09:17]
Alex Senter
So it was one of those books I had sort of to buy as a design student. And I remember the. The course I was in, communication design. Like, the teachers were very adamant about teaching us conceptually. Like, they didn't want us to. To learn how to use tools quite so much. It was really about thinking, and I think that's the, you know, sort of that has helped me quite a bit over the course of my career. But I was always looking for something that was a little bit more pragmatic, a little bit more practical, and something that could kind of be like, this is how you build brands. This is how you build identity. And so when I. When I remember reading the book for the first time and was sort of like, you mentioned, like, there's a little bit of humor, it felt a little bit more human and There was a bit of a personalness to it also, a directness of sort of like, this is the. This is the guide. Like, quite literally, this is the. This is how to design brand identity. And so I really like the kind of that. That sort of straightforwardness, I guess. And now looking back, I always say, like, I, I take the work I do very seriously, but not myself. And I think that's something that, I guess struck chord with me. Yeah, and, and, and certainly something that I loved about the book. And then when I met Alina many years later at a conference, I was. I was at How Design Live, and I had given a talk. And, you know, my talks are always quite like the podcast, a mix of entertainment and comedy and design storytelling and, and showing off the work as well. And so I think immediately she, she, you know, I think we were riding an elevator together. I think this is what I remember. And she said, hey, I just want to say I really enjoyed your talk, and I wrote this book, and I was just like, wow, that book really meant a lot to me in college. And I, you know, I kept it with me and, and I just, I just kind of poured my heart out into sort of how much the book meant. And then she was like, hey, could you send me that as a quote for the book? And so I was, I was honored to be, I believe, on one of the sort of COVID Back cover or inside cover or some sort of. As a quote on one of the, One of the editions. And then I believe some of the work that I had managed and directed with Collins for the Vitamin Water brand identity system was. Was in the book. The next edition, and now this edition, we have two center projects.
- [11:42]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about those. So, yeah, it's funny because on the fifth edition, you're. You're quoted on the back as, you know, with your role at Coca Cola, and now you're quoted on the back with your role at Center Design. So, yeah, it's. It's pretty cool that you studied the book and now you're in the book and quoted on the book. So one of the main places we wanted to get your input in this edition was. Was with package design. Obviously not all that you do, but something where it seems like you have a real area of expertise. So let's, let's just talk about package design a little bit. I mean, I assume that's one of the main things you did at Coca Cola. How was, how much did you know about package design when you got to Coke or even the job before that at Glasso and how, how much did you feel like Coca Cola was sort of your training ground for package design?
- [12:31]
Alex Senter
It's a great question. Prior to Coke Zero, it was my sort of general knowledge of package design and, and at the end when I left, yeah, pretty, pretty, pretty much the top line of my job description was to make sure that our brands look great on shelf. And I think I did a ton of packaging over my 10 years there. And I, I would always say my job was to be a brand guardian, which was, you know, kind of to make sure that wherever our brand showed up, we, we looked great and sort of it felt like us. But you know, the most important, you know, battleground was the shelf. And I would always say that, you know, packaging was critical to our success as, as a beverage brand. And so in my years there, I, I, I designed, you know, so, so many bottles and boxes and multi packs and limited edition package designs and so, so, so many labels across so many different brands and could probably fill a book of just package design that I was a part of in my 10 years at Coke. And many of it never saw the light of day. And so I think I've always had an affinity for package design in that it's kind of a really, I can get romantic about it and the fact that, you know, you can build the world's most beautiful brand identity, but when you walk into a bodega or you walk into a supermarket, the only thing that matters is that product and that package design sitting on that shelf and it's kind of fighting for its life against all its competitors there. And whether someone picks it up and decides to purchase it is kind of, you know, you have a second and it's really kind of the most important touch point for a lot of CPG brands, you know, sort of really kind of critically has to introduce itself, especially for a new brand in sort of who we are, what makes us special and why you should pick it up. And I think that's hard, right? People work very hard for their money. And so to get someone to look at something twice and then pick it up off the shelf and then decide to go to the checkout with it is, yeah, a lot of that is because of package design. And a lot of the brands that I've been a part of, package design is sort of that centerpiece of the brand idea.
- [14:42]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. One of the, one of the changes we made between the 5th and the 6th edition and this is a change you helped with, was in the intro copy to that two page spread. And there's a line that kind of encapsulates the challenge you just described, which is as of 2020, the average US supermarket had over 39,000 products on its shelf. Why shoppers pick one product over another often comes down to one key factor. Packaging. So, yeah, I get the sort of nature of the challenge. It seems almost like a, I mean, maybe not insurmountable, but a pretty daunting challenge. Just sort of technically speaking, what's different about package design? I'm not a designer, so maybe you can even sort of break it down for me. Like, what's different about doing a package design versus other types of graphic design or brand identity design that honestly I'm a little bit more familiar with. But even just sort of thinking at that highest level, what makes package design unique? The practice of doing it.
- [15:40]
Alex Senter
Yeah, I mean, I think it's also. So it's another great question and a complicated one. I'll start by saying that it's changed quite a bit over the last 10 years. I think the entrance that you talked about in the supermarket, right, like that has. That has skyrocketed because of the sort of barriers to entry for entrepreneurs and small businesses. And, you know, brands don't even have to be in the supermarket anymore. They can go direct to consumer and sort of kind of show up at your doorstep in just a matter of days. So I think packaging has become, you know, a really key factor for, for so many brands. And I think in the past, I think package design was about communicating what made your product special, right? And you're sitting there on a shelf with, you know, all your competitors and all your other pastas and you're like, why is our pasta different than all these other pastas? And so I always say meaningful differentiation is sort of my definition for branding that comes from Debbie Millman. And so it's like you're sitting there, it's like, why am I different and why is that sort of meaningful for you? And I think in the way that I think about it now, it's often about the emotional connection or sort of that sort of brand, sort of that consumer on the other side. Like, why do they want this in their life and how is it going to play a role in who they are and who, who their, what their identity is? And I think package design has now become like a signal of one's identity. So if you show up at a meeting or you go to a park and you just picked up a United Sodas, or you came with a liquid Death, like, it says something about who you are as a person. And in some ways that's quite like fashion, like the shirt you wear or the sort of hat on. Yeah. And sort of how you align to other brands is. Is. Is always fascinating to me. I think that's kind of where my love of branding comes from. Starts from, like, early 90s brands like Tommy Hilfiger, Nautica, Pulse Board, Nike, those things that I loved as a kid. Yeah. And so the way I think about package design is sort of like, you know, who is this for? And why are they going to want to sort of be seen with it? And why are they going to want to be a part of the brand? And I think package design has changed quite, you know, drastically from sort of just like, buy us because we have more protein, you know, or something that, like, ooh, this is for me, because it's the rebellious, colorful one. And I'm also like that, you know, So I think. I think it's changed quite a bit. And I think that's kind of my approach to packaging is sort of. Yes, it's through much more of a sort of conceptual, more sort of personality, more of an identity perspective. And I think ultimately, as. As I mentioned, these, these package designs, they're oftentimes quite small. Like it's a box or a can or it's like, I think it's, you.
- [18:25]
Rob Meyerson
Know, squeezing a lot on a tiny little package.
- [18:28]
Alex Senter
Yeah, you'll. You'll only get so much space on it, and so you kind of have to like, hack everything you are into that one touch point. So like I mentioned, it's sort of like an introductory to you, who, who you are as a brand and the product and trying to get across that. And oftentimes I think of it like a. You're at a party and so you have to introduce yourself to someone that you have never met before. Like, you're not just going to list off all your attributes. You're not just going to say, like, ingredients. I went to this college and this. And I'm this tall and I, you know, and I like these five things. Like, you have to like, you know, sort of find common ground and then you have to sort of lead with the things that are really most important to you and try to communicate that to. To a person in a very short amount of time. So I think package design, it's. Yeah, it's. It's one of those things that I've done a lot of and I really kind of. Yeah, it's like I always like to think that, you know, we're, we're brand builders, not, you know, a package design sort of company, but we do a ton of package design. And I think it's because of both its importance for, For. For modern brands, but also because of, you know, kind of a. Now 18 years of doing it professionally and all the things that I've learned and being a pro at it.
- [19:39]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, I become certainly.
- [19:41]
Alex Senter
Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm not ashamed. And I love, I love that very much.
- [19:46]
Rob Meyerson
I, I love, I love two things you said. One is just thinking of a package as a. As a fashion accessory is really interesting. And I totally get that. That a can that you're holding or a bottle or a bag that you're holding can sort of. Yeah, you. It could, it could, it could add to sort of your outfit or just sort of your overall look. It could detract from it. It could conflict with it. So that's a really interesting way of thinking about it. And then I also. I love that metaphor of the party. I mean, we think of brands that way a lot of times anyway, of just kind of what is your personality? How are you going to evoke that sort of right off the bat? But thinking of that specifically with respect to the packaging is really interesting. How do you actually do it, though? I mean, so I love the conceptual kind of just how to think about packaging. And we've talked about the nature of the challenge, like when you get hired by someone like United Soda or. Well, I guess part of the question is how consistent is it your package design process or does it totally depend on the nature of the client? And to the degree that it is consistent, what are some of the. Like, what's the first step and what are some of the main steps that you go through?
- [20:54]
Alex Senter
Yeah, it's a great question. We'll get into some of the practicality, I guess, and some of the phases, if you're interested. Like. Yeah, I'd love to. For me, it really starts with category audit. Right. Like, you gotta understand, like, what the category is, what it looks like in a store, what the history of it is. You know, kind of thinking about sort of the spaces that we're in. And, you know, I could use some of the brands that I, That I work in. You know, like, soda, you know, again, has been around for quite a long time and people love it. So we don't have to introduce soda. But what about soda is maybe broken or what needs to change? And what is it? How does it need to evolve and sort of how can we kind of meet the needs of a new consumer? And I think that's something that we're, you know, again, looking at the history of, Of a space, looking at the sort of other brands that are there and trying to make sure that we're differentiating from them and sort of understanding what that means. Ultimately, design is a tool to communicate an idea and a story. So I think, you know, that's where, you know, brand strategy and really having a concept is, Is critical because what, you know, what are you trying to communicate? If you don't have something to communicate, then then then you're just making something look pretty. And that's not necessarily how you build brands that have heart and soul. United Sodas was about sort of America and sort of this American love affair with, with, with. With this beverage, but sort of needing to sort of reinvent it for a new consumer, as I mentioned, and sort of, yeah, kind of celebrating America without flags or stripes or eagles or any. Anything patriotic, but really representing this idea of diversity and sort of the variety of people that live here. And then also choice, which is there isn't necessarily one soda for everyone. There should be, you know, sort of choice in that decision. And so we created this very colorful brand that sort of had incredibly stripped down, minimal, you know, sort of aesthetic, which is because, you know, people know what soda is. But flavor was really important and really wanted to get across this idea that, you know, the color of the brand could really get across flavor. And then on top of that, we wanted to create a brand that people wanted to be a part of and like I mentioned, be an accessory and be something that could, you know, maybe not sort of make sense on shelf, but would make perfect sense in your home, which is increasingly more designed and something that is more, you know, kind of turning your cooler into the MoMA as sort of talked about and, you know, also wanting people to like, you know, as I talked about before, like put on a red jacket and put on, you know, some or red shoes and then, you know, grab a cherry pop and sort of take a fit pic and post online and sort of use it in ways that maybe beverages hadn't been used before. And I think one of the coolest parts about that brand is how those were the conversations we were having when we launched it. And then just how much that has happened on TikTok and all these other platforms. When you see United sodas being used in, you know, all sorts of various ways, photo shoots, you know, sort of fit picks, recipes, all these Kind of amazing things that people are doing with the brand because it's, you know, it's not necessarily trying to be, it's not, it's not screaming at you to buy me, it's saying live with me. And sort of that differentiation of sort of soda that, that treats its consumers like that was sort of the, the goal of that project. So to, to be, to be a little bit more practical starts with audit of the category. It starts with a story and strategy and then really kind of brand identity and then, yeah, that packaging is sort of the main, most important touch point when we're building brands. Obviously we're thinking about lots of different touch points and websites and packaging and sort of at home, you know, marketing and all the different places that will show up, but really kind of making sure that, that, you know, that that sort of thing that you hold and ultimately that are, you know, sort of, you know, it's tangible too. You can feel it, it's. You hold it. And that's one of the things I really love about packaging too. It's like you're making something that's, that exists in the real world and it's not a mock up, it's a very real tangible thing and you can touch it and feel it and you can hold it and you can throw it in.
- [24:58]
Rob Meyerson
Right. There's something rewarding about just the tactile nature of it. Speaking of which, and I should mention the cans are right behind Alex's head. For anyone who hasn't noticed them and is watching, if you're listening, you'll have to tune in and take a look at them. But just looking at them here and having seen them of course elsewhere, they're, they're cans. And they're also sort of a matte finish, which I feel like I started seeing on soda cans like five or six years ago. And it never existed before that. Like it was always the shiny cans like you're sort of used to. So I, I'm just curious how, I mean, one thing that, that's different about package design, I guess, is just the materiality of, of it that you don't have to think about on a website. How involved do you guys get typically in selecting a. I mean, you could have said this should all be in bottles, I guess, instead of cans. I don't know if that's a decision that you weighed in on or they came to you and said, no, it's going to be a canned beverage. I'm sure there's all kinds of stuff that goes into that from price to sustainability to everything else. But then also that idea of, like a matte finish, is that something that you get involved in? It seems like an entirely separate area of expertise beyond just color and sort of graphic design. It's actual. This physicality of the object.
- [26:17]
Alex Senter
Of course, yeah. No, we are heavily involved in making the package design go from concept to reality. And I think, like you mentioned, you can make anything look like any way on screen through Photoshop or now AI like, you can make anything look beautiful, but it's about translating that or sort of taking that vision and making it a reality. On United Sodas, we were super involved in almost every decision. I was involved in some of the flavor, you know, sort of product decisions and was. Was in, you know, flavor houses trying different liquids for them. So I was super, super involved in United Sodas and sort of all the packaging decisions. Certainly the matte texture of that can was. Was a huge one because our brand is so minimal, it's so simple, that the can texture itself became kind of a part of the brand identity and wanted it to feel like luxury and something wanted to feel elevated and wanted to feel like, you know, sort of a product and, you know, sort of like a, you know, sort of a perfume or something that came from a different category that would have sort of a tactility to it that didn't just feel like a regular aluminum can. And so we went with a matte paper or matte wrap that was actually, you know, sort of quite, quite, quite different than aluminum. Sort of can has a lot of toothiness to. And that was something that we were very much sort of very, very, very directive of wanting to create that and, you know, sampled it a whole ton. So, yeah, we're quite involved in sort of taking a, you know, package design from a concept which was how we obviously present all of the work, but to making sure that that comes to life in reality. Because if it looks terrible, like I said before in. In real life, then it doesn't. Then the decks and the PDF don't, you know, that doesn't matter, right? At all. So we got to make sure that that is, you know, kind of comes out the way that we want it to, and that's oftentimes a challenge. And like you mentioned, there's, you know, pricing and sort of, you know, realities of materials and all the different pieces that come with package design. So we. We work with our partners in so many different ways, and, you know, again, sometimes they come to us and say, it's going to be in this Bottle. And this is, you know, again, you're, you're inheriting this. And sometimes they say, what should this be in?
- [28:24]
Rob Meyerson
Right.
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Alex Senter
And so we are involved in packaging in so many different ways with so many different clients.
- [28:29]
Rob Meyerson
Got it. Let's talk about another one. Butter. The. I should read exactly what Butter is. Butter is a cannabis company based in Michigan, aiming to build the first mainstream mass market cannabis brand. So we used this, not a full case study, but just some of the images from it on our spread about differentiation. I'm not super familiar with the full breadth of the cannabis industry and how all the branding looks because it seems like it's expanding at a pretty rapid clip. But it seems to me, from what I've seen that having a bright yellow package was pretty differentiating. I guess I'm curious, first off, that name Butter, did they come to you with that and how quickly, if so, how quickly did you get from that name to like, well, let's, let's make it yellow. It seems sort of obvious in retrospect, but it's quite a bold decision that that was made there.
- [29:18]
Alex Senter
Yeah, no, the, the brand name came from the client. The client is his nickname in high school. And, and, and I love the name because again, butter makes everything better and so does cannabis. And so I also thought, you know, it would be really funny if butter was a different color and not yellow. Just the name was Butter because it doesn't mean that it has to sort of look like butter. But one of the first kind of concepts that we had in the studio for that idea was just a, was just a yellow stick. And that was kind of, the idea was just like, what if the logo was just a yellow rectangle? And that would be all that you would need. You wouldn't even need to see the word butter. It just would work without just seeing that alone because it's so iconic. And he loved that idea and I think so that was really where the identity sort of stemmed from, I would say kind of to, to take a step back from, to, to look at the larger category. Cannabis is really interesting and having come from Coca Cola, doing a lot of work in beverage, and certainly some of the early brands that we worked on at center were beverage brands, United Sodas, as I mentioned. So it's really exciting for me when I get to go deep into other categories. And cannabis was one that was super fascinating to me. And I think it's changing so rapidly because of legalization and decriminalization and all these kind of things that are happening. And so you Know, I think because it was illegal for so long and still is in, in a lot of places, there was. There was a stigma around it that it was still like underground or sort of kind of cheap in its sort of design language. Right. Like, it just didn't look, you know, sort of. It didn't look premium. So when it got legalized, I think that a lot of people, a lot of brands just wanted to overcompensate for that, and so they kind of went super luxury.
- [31:01]
Rob Meyerson
Yes.
- [31:02]
Alex Senter
And sort of this idea of like the, like the apple of cannabis or like the Rolex, and it was just all very sort of like, like super bougie and like marble textures and like they were trying to make cannabis no longer sort of in the dark, but in the light. And then these sort of like glass jars and everything was sort of like really, really quite luxury. And then there was this other also movement of cannabis that I was intrigued by was like, you know, cannabis is wellness, right? Like, it was this kind of thing that you would kind of smoke in your house by yourself and it would make you feel better, release your anxiety, which sure is a part of cannabis. That's true. But, like, the part of what I kind of thought was missing from cannabis, which was sort of the sort of community aspect of it or sort of that idea that, like, you could go listen, you can go like, with friends or this, like, sharing of cannabis and sort of the music at a concert or movies or these kind of things that sort of felt like more true and honest to like, how people actually use cannabis. And then also because cannabis was so state by state run, it sort of had this, like, local beer effect, right. So that, like, all the brands kind of felt like craft local beers of their local, you know, areas. And so we got really excited by this idea, like, what if we decided to build a sort of mainstream Coca Cola for everybody brand so that when it's fully legalized everywhere and brands can kind of travel from state to state and kind of show up in multiple places that we could kind of be ready for that and it wouldn't feel like it was just kind of like a mom and pop or sort of a local, you know, sort of craft brand. But it was kind of more of the sort of like target brand, you know what I mean? And so that was kind of our sort of diagnosis, I guess, of the category and cannabis at large. And so kind of all really stemmed from there and just kind of really created a beautiful brand that kind of highlighted sort of that idea that cannabis is. Can Be fun and can be used to enhance everyday life. And you know, we wanted to, you know, build a better world, build a butter world. And so that was kind of the, the, the idea there, which was, you know, sort of, yeah, feel good brand that sort of helps people because I think cannabis does help people in a lot of ways. But it doesn't have to be this kind of solo act of you sitting outside looking at a, out of a, out of a window, kind of sad or you know, on a, on a dreary kind of cold rainy day. And it doesn't have to be this kind of like, you know, med men, kind of uber fancy, kind of like, you know, department store feel that either. So, yeah, it's a, it was a fun one and a really great brand.
- [33:42]
Rob Meyerson
Being in the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay area, I've obviously seen a lot of these brands locally at least, and I completely. The way you've diagnosed the category totally resonates. I've seen these super high end brands and definitely the sort of more wellness look and feel, which is like taking the sort of crunchy granola aspect of weed and just sort of upscaling it a little or a lot. But it seems to me that part of the reason the category went in those two directions was to move away from that stigma that you mentioned. And I think they were sort of purposely avoiding mentioning the fun aspect of it because somehow fun would. They were worried it was sort of drag it back down into the, like, it can't be too fun because then it's like, then it's drugs, you know, then it's bad.
- [34:28]
Alex Senter
Totally. And I think we wanted to bring that fun back. And it's like, you know, I often was inspired by like beer brands, like beer brands talking about sort of like, you know, people watching basketball together and sort of like that, that idea that like beer is, you know, or alcohol in general, like, you know, it, you know, shouldn't be really promoted either. But it's like, but it, but it is and it's. And so like, why can't it be fun and sort of show people just hanging out and drinking beer and. Or like kind of remove the beer and put in the weed and like it's not. That's not a crazy thought to me. And I think that was just, it just felt like it had never been done before. So I was like that to me felt like the really kind of big opportunity there. And so we wound up kind of throwing a house party in Brooklyn and kind of inviting all these people and models and stuff like that. And we just kind of, you know, just kind of had people smoke weed and shot a lot of video and photography and kind of all these different pieces, and that was a big part of the brand.
- [35:22]
Rob Meyerson
Great, great. Well, I think it worked and yeah, definitely feels like the right place for it in the book on that differentiation spread. You know, to be perfectly candid, a lot of the reason I thought it made sense there is just because of the look. It's so sort of bold, like I said. And it's yellow, which is a category that doesn't use a lot of yellow, but the way you've described it from a strategic standpoint and where it sort of zigs, while the rest of the category zags is really just sort of making that feel even more like the right fit for it in the book.
- [35:52]
Alex Senter
That's a big part of what we do here. I think it's like, you know, to me, that's what branding is, zigging when everyone else bags. And so, you know, I think, you know, it's about cultural context, too. Like, brands are a reflection of culture. And I think, yeah, thinking about how people think about cannabis and why the brands are look the way they do, and you're right, like the sort of wellness crunchy granola, Kraft paper of all that kind of stuff, it just, you know, kind of. You're right. Like, they were. People were afraid to say cannabis is fun thing to do, but it's like, in reality, that's why people use it. Right, right. So, you know, I think we just want to be honest, but also, yeah, like being different and standing out from what everyone else does is. Is really critical. And looking at all the other brand colors and like you said, like, it makes a lot of sense for butter to be yellow, but in cannabis, everything is, you know, there's not a lot of yellow and a lot of green. So I think it's just like, you know, making sure that our brands think differently than other brands. And I think that's always kind of the approach that we take and how that comes through. And every single touch point is. Is kind of our, you know, that's our job.
- [36:52]
Rob Meyerson
Great, Great. Yeah. Let's. Let's talk about one final case study really quickly. So you have a full case study from center in the third section of the book as well. And that's catkin. So briefly, can you describe catkin? What. What is that brand?
- [37:05]
Alex Senter
Yeah, it's a cat food and cat care company out of London. And yeah, another really fun project and a great Case study for zigging where other people zag. Right. I guess. And, you know, a really interesting one because I'm allergic to cats. And so when they reached out originally to Center, I was a bit unsure at the beginning because I was. I was like, I like typically to have some sort of emotional connection to the work that we're doing. And so I didn't know that this was sort of the perfect project for center or for me. But when I met the founders, they were both so lovely. They're a brother and sister duo. And, you know, they just have so much love for cats. And they wanted to build a cat brand that was unlike any other cat brand. And they wanted to do something that was bold and differentiated and sort of attitudinal. And I was like, okay, now this. Now we're talking. Like, this is. This is what we love to do. And so, yeah, that project was a really fascinating one because obviously, you know, you got to again, go back to category audience and looking at all the other cat food brands and every single cat food brand, like, I would say they look like baby food brands. Like, they, like, treat cats as, like, you're, you know, sort of like their pet. Like, pets are also children. You know, it's kind of the thing which is like all sorts of, like, pastel colors and everything's very soft and sort of, like, fuzzy and, like, cute is because cats are cute.
- [38:22]
Rob Meyerson
That's probably right for part of the category, right? I mean, I do think there's probably cat owners who treat their cats like their kids, but. But I get that that's not the whole category exactly.
- [38:32]
Alex Senter
And also, like, talk about stigma. There's like the, you know, crazy cat lady or sort of like people like, sort of like that have. Cats are sort of like, you know, disheveled. Sort of like people that don't have nice, you know, like, furniture, nice design stuff. It's just like, I feel like, you know, there's such an image and culture of, like, cat owners and, like, kind of who they are as people. And then on top of that, like, people are like, you know, cats are like kind of the, like, you know, second fiddle to the dog. The dog's like the sort of hero. And then, like, cats are also, like, easy to take care of. Like, you don't even have to do anything. They just kind of like, you just sort of just get one, and then they just kind of live their own life and you're, you know, in your house. And so there was kind of all these really interesting kind of like cultural and sort of like, you know, conceptions or sort of what people think of when they think of cats and cat ownership. And so a lot of that was really, you know, kind of input that to the brand. And we worked at this really amazing agency on the strategy side called Sonder and Tell, and they, they came up with some, you know, sort of really kind of pointed strategy that was around this idea of Love Hard, which was sort of the tagline for the brand and this idea that like cat owners, like go hard for their cats. Like, they really, you know, like, they really love their cats and they'll do anything for them. And yes, they treat them like kids, but like they don't, you know, it's, it's not because they like, you know, they're babies or they're cute or they're cuddly. It's because like, they care about them so much that they'll like, do anything for them. And so Catkin is a really high quality cat food product. And so all the things in everything that they make there is like the top, top of the line product in food. And they cut like no corners and they'll do whatever they can to make the best products for cats. And they've done all sorts of research and they do all this work to kind of create the best products. And so when we met them and I went to London, I met the founders and I went to the office and I went to the facilities, they were like, if we find out next month that there's a better food for cats, we'll change everything. You know, like, we'll just completely, you know, we're not doing this, we're not trying to cut corners and that's what other brands do. And so we were like, really inspired by this idea that this is a brand that's for like, people that don't want to cut corners and like people that want to like, you know, that, that are hardcore in love with their cats and like, want to take care of them. But also, you know, they're willing to pay a little bit more for their, for their cats. And on top of that, they like, you know, the, the cats are kind of crazy. Like they have this kind of attitude of their own. Like they, I, I didn't know this when I started the project, but they're very picky eaters. So they won't just eat anything. Like dogs will eat anything. But like cats are, they have very refined palate. And then on top of it, they like kind of run the households. Like, they kind of like, or they think they're the boss or. Yeah, they're the boss. And like, you know, they just kind of have this like, kind of quirky attitude. And so we kind of wanted to make sure that all that came across in the brand. And so we wanted something that had a little bit attitude. We wanted like a punk rock brand as, you know, kind of in its. In its feeling. But we didn't want it to be like liquid death, you know, like that on the nose. But we want to give it a little bit of that claw energy, I guess. And so that's why you kind of have that like scratchy script logo.
- [41:44]
Rob Meyerson
Right?
- [41:44]
Alex Senter
And then all the typography from the brand is really inspired from like protest posters because the brand has this sort of, you know, point of view is that trying to make, you know, Catkin or hardcore love the standard for cat parenting. And so they want to sort of, you know, fight the system and they want to fight some of these bigger brands that are cutting corners and sort of putting all sorts of chemicals and things into their products. So, you know, Catkin can really, you know, it's a sort of an aggressive brand in a way, but it's also a beautiful brand. And one of the things I was really inspired by in terms of like the art direction of the photography was like showing Catkin and well designed homes. You know, like homes that like, have nice furniture and nice appliances. And so we did like a four day photo shoot in Brooklyn and all these different apartments and all these different places with all these different couples and all these different types of cats. And it was a really fun, wild week of cat wrangling.
- [42:40]
Rob Meyerson
A lot of the photos do have this very. There's almost like a punk rock photojournalism style where, you know, it's cats leaping in midair, or I think I see one hanging from the fridge door or something like that. They're not posed, so very. Yeah, beautiful homes. But then it's sort of juxtaposed with, I guess, that punk rock aspect of kind of putting a lot of action into the photos.
- [43:04]
Alex Senter
Yeah, it's called Cats Being Cats. That was kind of what we were trying to document. And it's a hard thing to do. You know, you're just like, let the cat run around and try to capture it in its raw environment. But yeah, we wanted to kind of have a little bit of that edge. And, you know, I think there was kind of from beginning, it's like, you know, other brands are fluffy, we're not. And it's like. And I think that became kind of the. The sort of mantra. It's like, oh, is it too fluffy? It just feels too fluffy. You know, kind of like this cutesy cat. Like, oh, look how cuddly it is on online. Because there's this like, you know, sort of Internet culture of just like cute cats. And so, you know, cats are cute, but they also, you know, kind of have this attitude. And we wanted to capture that and we wanted the photography to feel real and kind of aggressive. And like you mentioned, like, you know, cats are ripping open things and sort of climbing on the furniture and jumping all over the place. But, you know, I think really a really fun project and really something that stands out in the category because also use of color, which I think is something that we do quite a bit here at center is like, use color and to differentiate. And there was recently Katkin was at a like, pet food convention center, you know, sort of like comic con for cat or pet foods. And like, they had a big booth in the middle and Catkin was just like this big neon yellow logo on this, like, black background. And it looks so different than everything else there in that sort of space. Everything looks super, either pharmaceutical or fluffy. And so Kakin really is, you know, bold and aggressive and I'm just so proud of that brand. Doesn't look like cat food. It just looks like, you know, something that, you know, comes from another place. Thanks for. I'm really proud that it's in the book as well. And those two projects are, you know, responsible for some of the awards behind me shelves and. But to be in these, you know, kind of books is, you know, these things are forever, you know, these are. These will be, you know, passed down from generation to generations.
- [44:59]
Rob Meyerson
Sorry, I'm gonna say we gotta get you a copy of the sixth to. To hold up there.
- [45:04]
Alex Senter
I. I do need a new copy to see the work and. But yeah, no, it's. It's, you know, kind of going back to Coke, right. Like, leaving my. My job at a big, you know, big amazing company, working in house. Like, I really wanted to do work at, you know, in this. In this way. Right. Really differentiate it and really kind of, yeah, set the tone for what great brand building is about and you know, to be honored and to be, you know, sort of a part of the brand, brand identity, sort of franchise. Like, to me, it's a real kind of. It's a real pinch me moment to say, you know, we're doing it.
- [45:41]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah. Well, I mean, thank you so much for your contribution to the book too. We, we couldn't create it without input from people like you and obviously you made a big impact with. We talked about three different projects that are, that are featured in three different parts of the book. So really a huge contribution and I love the consistency between those three projects. You know, very different projects, but still we're always talking about these sort of big ideas of differentiation, the sort of process of really getting to know the category, that sort of deep dive diagnosis of it and figuring out where you can fit and stand out. So thank you so much for, for all that input. I have a couple of wrap up questions if you can stick around for a few minutes.
- [46:22]
Alex Senter
Yeah, let's do it.
- [46:23]
Rob Meyerson
So any, I mean, you mentioned that you love these brands that we've been talking about. Anything else that you would, would want to point out to a brand that you, whether you worked on it or not, that you just love and feel like they're making a positive impact on the world, something that you would want to encourage people to support?
- [46:39]
Alex Senter
Yeah, I feel like, you know, this is, this, this is maybe obvious to, to many, but Liquid Death is, you know, I kind of call them out a little bit, but they're, you know, one of my favorite brands on the planet right now. And I just think what they're doing is so exciting and so new and so, so fun. And I again, just thinking about the planet and how we can sort of, yeah, do something that's sustainable but also fun and entertaining and comedic and you know, we, so we can unfuck the planet. You know, that's, that's, that's their line. I didn't say that.
- [47:09]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:10]
Alex Senter
You know, and so we had a chance to work with them on some things and just like, you know, the way they're thinking about brand and the way they sort of, you know, it's, it's run by a designer and a bunch of ad creatives. And so, you know, they're, they're really kind of changing the mold and you see so many copycat brands out there that kind of feel Liquid Death inspired. So as far as our, you know, brands that we support, I mean support all of them, you know, sodas and you know, sort of butter.
- [47:37]
Rob Meyerson
Pick your flavor.
- [47:37]
Alex Senter
Yeah, yeah, pick them all. Ghetto Gastro is another brand that I'm a really big fan of that we work with here. That crew is doing some really fun things in all sorts of different categories and launched their sort of product lines in Target this year. And yeah, they're, they're in Gap ads. They're sort of, you know, a really fun sort of community, and we're, we're proud to work with them.
- [47:59]
Rob Meyerson
Great. Check. I'll check that one out. Familiar with Liquid Death, obviously, but. But not Ghetto Gastro.
- [48:05]
Alex Senter
Sure.
- [48:05]
Rob Meyerson
Any. Any other books that, you know, we talked about Designing Brand Identity and the influence it's had on you in your career. Any. Anything else, either something you read recent or something else that you remember from being a student or earlier in your career that that kind of has stuck with you and that you recommend?
- [48:20]
Alex Senter
Yeah, the book I always recommend is Brand Thinking and Other Noble Pursuits by Debbie Millman. I think it's, it's, it's probably, you know, kind of my, My, my go to. And it's a very different book than Designing Brand Identity. In some ways, it's kind of like the, the perfect counterpoint where it's like a book that's just conversations with Debbie talking to other people about what branding is. And I think that's what's so interesting about this profession is that you could talk to 10 different experts, get 10 different answers, and get 10 different, you know, points of view. And I think it's, it's a wildly misunderstood thing in, in many ways. And so I think if you're really into brands and branding, I, I always recommend her book. And she's got so many books, so you can kind of, you know, pick any of them. But my personal favorite is Brand Thinking and Other Noble Pursuits because it has so many interviews and so many conversations with so many amazing, talented, you know, designers and thinkers and creatives that just kind of all come from different angles and different perspectives on what brand is. Yeah, her podcast, I always recommend that book.
- [49:23]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah. And her podcast is, is so amazing. You can, I assume a lot of those conversations or at least the people featured in the conversations in the book. You can probably go listen to podcast episodes as well, if that's your preferred, you know, mechanism of media consumption that it's out there as well.
- [49:39]
Alex Senter
Design Matters is. Yes, it's the longest running and really first design podcast. So, yeah, we are all, you know, in Debbie's shadow, but she is, yeah, she's a legend and a friend. And yeah, her podcast is amazing and I've been listening for, for decades, which is. But her show is typically about people and their careers. The book Brand Thinking is really about those people and what they believe branding is or what they, what, you know, how they, how they have, you know, come to, to. To think about brand. So if you're into branding, I think that to Me is the first book as to sort of like, what is it?
- [50:18]
Rob Meyerson
Great.
- [50:18]
Alex Senter
And I don't know that I have a better recommendation than that.
- [50:21]
Rob Meyerson
Awesome. Great. Great recommendation. So just two more questions. Any advice for listeners trying to get started in a career and design or branding or maybe specifically package design, and any tips that you have for. For listeners that are, you know, at the beginning of their career or really trying to take that next step?
- [50:40]
Alex Senter
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, a lot of my perspective comes from being a fan first. And I'll just say that, you know, kind of, I. You have to have a career in this as. As much as it is is about, you know, the making of things, it's about sort of, you know, a lot of other parts of. Of brand building. Right. You mentioned sort of the production parts of things. And so much of it is relationships. And so I think if you, you know, are a fan of. Of. Of. Of brands and culture and you want to be a part of it, I think it's just, you know, just research and sort of, you know, kind of looking into your favorite brands and kind of the things that you're excited about. Because I always think that I'm so much more motivated, inspired, and, you know, excited ultimately to work with brands that I am either a fan of or, you know, kind of categories or things that I'm a fan of. And so I think a lot of the work that I do is, you know, kind of a dream come true in a lot of ways where I get to work with a brand like Apple or New Balance or brands I've been, like, forever. Fans of.
- [51:42]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah.
- [51:43]
Alex Senter
You know, a brand like Liquid Death or sort of Magic Spoon or other brands that, like, I, you know, sort of, you know, newer brands that I think are doing amazing things and then sort of creating brands that are in spaces or categories that I'm, you know, excited by and then building brands that I become fans of. So I think, for me, you know, I think yeah. Is like, you know, kind of coming from that perspective of, like, design craftsmanship is like, I think what a lot of designers think they have to, like, become the best at. And I think design, of course, is. Is, you know, it's a service industry in a lot of ways. So I think it's like you have to be able to make things and, you know, sort of. That's a big part of it, but it's. It's not the only part. And so kind of doing that research or, you know, reading about other kind of brands and culture and it's like a lot of the things that I think about, like I talked about in this interview, or just about sort of like how cats have been seen in movies or ads or, you know, people, how people think about them or sort of things that are sort of broader than just kind of the design world. And I think that's always something that I try to sort of help, help young designers understand that, especially those that want to be in branding.
- [52:52]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, I love the eclectic nature of working in brand consulting and getting to do these deep dives on anything from cats to, you know, the next day you might be on some sort of seemingly boring B2B technology space, but if you can harness that just sort of desire to learn and dig in on something that either interests you or that just sort of can interest you, once you really start to dig into it, then it's a huge part of what makes the job fun. So I hear loud and clear on that. Anything. So we mentioned if you want to see Center's work, obviously three, three cases that we talked about in the book. I encourage people to go check out Front and Center the podcast as well. Where else should people go if they want to learn more about you and your agency?
- [53:38]
Alex Senter
Yeah, we. You can find us at center.design which is our website on Instagram. We're entr, which is a big new part of our brand here.
- [53:49]
Rob Meyerson
Congrats on getting that.
- [53:51]
Alex Senter
We just got a new handle at Center. I've wanted that for 10 years, so it's still surreal to even say it out loud. And yeah, listen to the podcast Front Center. When does this come out?
- [54:02]
Rob Meyerson
It's a good question. It'll probably be three or four weeks.
- [54:06]
Alex Senter
Got it. So I'm doing a talk first round, which is wonderful conference by the people at Brand New about the first round presentations that designers present to clients and typically don't see the light of day. But in this conference they are shown to people. And so by the time this comes out, this probably had passed. But you may be able to kind of get the video online if you're interested in sort of seeing a bit of a sort of behind the scenes, behind the curtains peak at United Sodas of America and sort of the.
- [54:36]
Rob Meyerson
Oh, cool.
- [54:37]
Alex Senter
The very first presentation of how we pitched it to clients.
- [54:40]
Rob Meyerson
Nice. Yeah, I went to First Round in San Francisco and then just recently in la. It's a great. It's such a cool idea for, for an event to, to see designers sharing. There's, there's the real vulnerability to seeing them share stuff that didn't ultimately get chosen. Yeah. Even though, again, even though I'm not a designer, I love. I love the sort of camaraderie and just the learnings from even seeing how people present their. Their work. So that's exciting. What's the date on the New York event? Do you remember?
- [55:06]
Alex Senter
It's May 10th. It's about a week and a half from now.
- [55:10]
Rob Meyerson
Okay. Yeah. I mean, I would encourage people, if they can't go to the event, you can. I think you still have to pay, but you can pay to just get online access. And so many of those presentations are so great, and I'd love to see yours. So that's great. That's great to know about. Thanks for sharing.
- [55:25]
Alex Senter
Yeah.
- [55:25]
Rob Meyerson
All right. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for being on the show and for all your help with the book. And I hope to connect with you again soon.
- [55:33]
Alex Senter
My absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.
- [55:35]
Rob Meyerson
All right.
- [55:35]
Alex Senter
It was fun.
- [55:37]
Rob Meyerson
Thanks for listening to how brands are built. If you like this episode, please leave a rating and a review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more About Alex, visit thealexcenter.com to learn more about center and the work that he's doing there with his team. Go to center.design if you're interested in designing brand identity. The book, it is available on Amazon now. How Brands are Built is a production of Heirloom Agency. Our theme music is by Esha Erskine Project. I'm Rob Meyerson and I'll talk to you next time.