Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:08]
Rob Meyerson
Welcome to How Brands Are Built, where branding professionals get into the details of what they do and how they do it. I'm your host, Rob Meyerson. Thanks for listening. It's been a long time since I sat behind this microphone and recorded a new episode of the podcast. And in the years since that last episode, I I've published my first book, Brand Naming, as well as a course with Domestika, Fundamentals of Memorable Brand Naming. You can learn more about both of those by visiting robmyerson.com but more recently, I teamed up with the late Alina Wheeler to publish the sixth edition of Designing Brand Identity. And in this season of the podcast, or at least the next few episodes, I'll be talking to some of the experts, some of the designers, some of the branding professionals that Alina and I met with to help us create this new edition of the book. So today's guest is Rob Goodman. Rob specializes in content strategy and creative content production. With experience at companies like Google, Wix and webflow. He's delivered award winning branded content, content strategies and comprehensive content calendars for these companies and other clients, helping brands transform into publishers built for engaging today's audiences. Rob also hosts his own great podcast called Making Ways that's w a y s about the intersection of art and music. He interviews bands like Melvins and Not a Surf and the visual artists that they collaborate with to create album art, music videos and more. It's really cool and I recommend you check that out. But today, Rob and I won't be talking about art or music all that much. We'll be talking about content strategy because Rob was a big contributor to this new edition of Designing Brand Identity. He pitched in on the spread about social media and in a few other sections of the book. But his biggest contribution was on that content strategy spread and you'll find a quote from him on those pages. The best content cuts through the noise, connects with customers and drives the business, all while moving at the speed of culture. Oh, one thing I almost forgot to mention. If you are listening to this podcast, then you should know that new episodes of How Brands Are Built will also have video. So if you'd like to see this interview, you can tune into YouTube and watch it there. Now, here's my conversation with Rob Goodman. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Rob Goodman, thanks for joining me and welcome to the podcast.
- [02:42]
Rob Goodman
It's great to be here, Rob, thanks so much for having me.
- [02:44]
Rob Meyerson
Okay, let's get started with the big question. What is content strategy? Or how do you define It.
- [02:51]
Rob Goodman
I've got a short and sweet answer for this one, Rob. It's the approach by which a brand utilizes content to drive business outcomes.
- [03:00]
Rob Meyerson
Okay, got it. So how do you think, how does that fold into marketing? I actually, I had a. A mentee not too long ago asked me whether marketing is part of content strategy. And I said, I think it's the other way around. I think content strategy is part of marketing. But how do you relate those two to each other?
- [03:20]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, definitely. I see. I see content, content strategy as, as part of marketing. There certainly is content strategy that is in the product and product design and development domain. But when it comes to this conversation and talking about content strategy and content within the marketing realm, it certainly sits under that umbrella. I think it fuels a lot of the community, influencer, social, and frankly, the campaign efforts that are going on in an organization. It's the conversations, the graphics, the narratives that are coming out across campaigns, touchpoints and channels.
- [04:00]
Rob Meyerson
And then there are a lot of words that come after content that I hear. So I think we've been saying content strategy, but then I hear content planning, content production. Are these all synonyms or do you distinguish between these different topics?
- [04:15]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I think they all are parts and kind of sides, dimensions of content, but they're definitely distinct disciplines and distinct areas. I like to think of content strategy as the why, kind of the underlying rationale and reasoning behind what you're going to be planning from an editorial perspective. I like to think of content planning as the how. Okay, this is our plan. This is how we are going to bring things to market. Our cadence, our aims, our channels, our types of content and medium. And I like to think of content production as the what. Now we're getting into what we're actually building. We're rolling up our sleeves. We're putting together productions for videos, podcasts, ebooks, audiobooks, short form social series, interactive content, rich web experiences, and so on.
- [05:11]
Rob Meyerson
Cool. I want to talk to everything that you just listed out there. I want to get to that, but that's really helpful. That's simple. So content strategy is the why, content planning is the how, and content production is the what. Did I get that right?
- [05:25]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, you got that right.
- [05:26]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, I like that. All right. And then why do brands, I mean, this sounds like a dumb question, but why do brands do it? Why do content strategy? Why create content? It feels like something that, you know, every brand has to do now, but I feel like a lot of brands and even sort of individuals on that. I see on social, it's. It's just assumed that it's a must do. But what is the goal really? I mean, is it about building awareness and just getting your name out there as a brand or as an individual? Is it usually in your experience driving traffic to something else, you know, to a shop, so that you're actually driving revenue through your content? I mean, what is usually the goal? Or is it just totally different for different clients of yours?
- [06:10]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I think there's a couple of questions in there. I think kind of why do content in the first place? I mean, this has been going on for the past five, 10 plus plus years. Consumers and even, you know, businesses from a B2B perspective, they've grown more and more immune to sales, to advertising. And we've moved into more of a conversation economy, more of a value based economy. What are you bringing to the audience, to end users, to consumers, that is going to help them do their jobs better, to enrich their lives, enrich them professionally. And those are the kinds of messages that people are tuned in on. They don't want to hear corporate speak, they don't want to hear something that's clearly just trying to get them to do something or buy something. So I think that's the why behind content. I think it's the way in which we're communicating amongst brands and consumers now. And it's very much kind of value based in, in terms of enriching people's lives in terms of kind of, you know, why are we doing it? From a marketing and business standpoint, I think it can really touch on all of the different areas that you mentioned. So content can often be very top of funnel, very awareness based, you know, you know, depending on the goals of the business, depending on the medium that you're using to tell these stories, oftentimes it can be middle of the funnel lead generation. You could be developing gated content that lives under an email and information unlock so that salespeople can get marketing qualified leads and can start, you know, talking more directly to an audience. And you know, it can really tie into bigger brand kind of sentiment, brand measurement tactics and areas as well. You know, when it comes to customer sentiments and also when you're trying to stand out from the competition, oftentimes products might be awfully similar in what they offer. But when you start enhancing beyond the product into the brand by telling stories through content, offering learning and education resources and really elevating thought leaders in the space under that brand umbrella, you start to differentiate from the crowd.
- [08:41]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, that's a great point. One of the first things you said is a great point. This sort of shift in the culture that's been, I'm sure taking place over the past 30 to, I don't know, 60 years of this sort of distaste for what we think of as typical or stereotypical advertising, where it feels like we're being pitched. And I think a lot of the idea behind content and these words that we've been talking about, the idea is making it feel like you're not being pitched, like we're providing useful content. Does that is, is do you think of advertising as sort of the antithesis or the opposite of content and it sits outside of what you typically call content or, or is advertising potentially a type of content? How do you see that relationship?
- [09:33]
Rob Goodman
I think it could be all of the above. There are ads that are kind of straight ahead, you know, buy my product, sign up for my course, whatever it might be. And then there are content rich advertising. I mean, think about on social media where you can kind of put some, put some coins in the machine and your message is going to be boosted. You're basically paying your advertising to have your social posts, your content reach more of your audience and more of a, of a wide ranging audience. And then oftentimes advertising can connect back to content. You might be advertising something that relates to the content journey for a user to kind of ease them into the funnel. So you know, maybe you're, you're selling a product or a service, but you're advertising something related to that, an ebook or maybe a educational course that's tangential to it. So you're not going kind of straight ahead of like buy the thing, you're going in and you're advertising something that again is more value based to welcome that consumer in, to kind of your, your world of content and then into product.
- [10:49]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, it's interesting to think about all the different patterns or arrangements that you could create. You could advertise for the content and the content drives to the product page or you know, all these different kind of sites, scenarios. Which, which leads to my next question, which is just kind of how do you, how do you do this? So a client comes to you or one of the companies that you've worked for and let's say they give you a pretty clear goal, right? Like we want to drive traffic to, to this page on our website or we want you to create content that changes perceptions in the marketplace so that we're seen as more of a thought leader in X space. How do you start? I mean, because it does Seem like there are so many options before you even get to the endless list of like, types of content. Are we talking about a book or a podcast? So how do you start?
- [11:40]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, definitely. So I think I'll break your question into two parts. One is kind of the, the quick action go to market and the other is kind of the methodical kind of part of content strategy. So I think if you're working with an organization and they've done all of the strategy work, they've done the research, they know their audience, they know their competition, they know what's working from a marketing perspective and then they come to you or they come to me and they say, hey, we have this gap. We want to use content to reach these goals. If all of that is, you know, really solid and all that foundation is in place, then I can work with that company and, you know, really hone in on, okay, we want to be featuring these kind of thought leaders. Given what you know about the audience, I can give you research or connect the dots that that audience is really going to resonate on this platform or that platform, you know, TikTok or LinkedIn and they're really going to resonate with, you know, audio, with a podcast or short form video or text based content. And then we can kind of move, you know, from, from the beyond the why of the content strategy, you know, quicker into the, the planning and the, and the what, the production and then we start making.
- [12:59]
Rob Meyerson
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that doesn't always happen or doesn't typically happen even. I feel like you're, you're describing some fantasy land where, where clients come to you with all buttoned up and everything that you need ready to go. But I'm guessing typically you have to dig in a little on some of that.
- [13:16]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I think so. So to answer the other kind of side of it, the methodical, the methodology part of content strategy, I think that, you know, my background, I was at Google and working in more of a product marketing domain and through my time there really kind of built up my chops when it came to product positioning, product marketing, all of those things. And then when I left Google and went independent, you and I got to collaborate on some projects and I started to learn more about brand strategy, brand positioning, brand messaging. And as I kind of brought those disciplines into my passion for content, I married some of those like best practices from product positioning, from brand strategy work and kind of brought that into my content strategy methodology. And I think a lot of these things Just relate to good strategy overall. So for me, yeah, it's a multi step process. The first is really getting to know the business. You know, what are the insights that are, you know, behind driving this goal that the company has? What's the uniqueness of the product and service, what drives the business overall? What are the challenges and the opportunities that are, are coming up. So that's the first part is really knowing the business inside and out. And ideally an organization would kind of have the building blocks there, but there's usually some pieces that need to be filled in. The next is, you know, obviously very, very critical is knowing the audience. So understanding, you know, what, what motivates the audience, who do they want to be, you know, what does it look like for this audience to live their, their best lives thinking about their needs, their wants, their desires, the customer journey as it relates to the product or service that the company is offering. And oftentimes, you know, this is quantitative research, but also really qualitative in terms of meeting with customers, getting to know them, doing interviews, and then ideally having access to overall data from the organization as well in terms of what their customers are doing. You want to get to know for kind of the third piece is getting to know the existing content and what's working, what's not working. The next is really studying the competition, what are they putting out from a content and brand perspective. What's kind of a unique space that the organization that I'm working with can own and kind of leverage from a thought leadership or content perspective and then really kind of connecting all of these dots to a mission for content and getting in into. Okay, now we know the business, we know the audience, we know what you all have been doing in the immediate and what's working, what's not. We've kind of looked at the market overall and let's connect this now to foundationally what we want to do from a content strategy perspective. And then it naturally flows into, you know, defining the role that content can play in telling the company story, in how it fits in with customers and the brand, identify those key narratives that are needed and then the content pillars, you know, what are the kind of key themes that we want to aggregate and organize content around and also defining the high level success metrics, measurement and operations for which. So these are kind of all the components that go into the strategy.
- [16:49]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, that first piece of strategy that you described is very much like brand Strategy. It's those three Cs. So if you combine, you said, understanding their existing content and also understanding Them as a, as a company. Obviously, if you could kind of combine those things into just one of the three Cs, meaning understanding your client or the company, then knowing the customers or the audience, and knowing the competition, those are the other two. And figuring out something that works at the intersection of those three circles is, is, yeah, really, I think standard strategy model, but it's standard because it works. So that's, that's good to hear that, that it applies in the content space as well. I guess one thing where it might be different that I'm wondering about is, and we talk a lot in brand strategy about differentiation, and there's a debate over how important that is. But typically the reason we're looking at competition is we're trying to figure out how to stand apart from them. And you mentioned that for content. And I get that, you know, if no one else is doing a podcast, that's an opportunity where maybe you can kind of own your industry or, you know, sort of talk about a topic uniquely because your competition doesn't have that. But is there also pressure to match what the competition is doing? So if everyone has a podcast in your space to do, clients of yours or companies you've worked for say, like, okay, we need to do that too, because we know that our audience is out there listening to these other podcasts. Does that make sense?
- [18:26]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, it makes sense. You know, I haven't encountered that and I tend to kind of shy away from that, that kind of mentality of like, you know, us too, or chasing, yeah, chasing what others are doing. I think, you know, certainly getting into, hey, what's the vehicle by which we're going to tell this message? Hey, should it be a podcast or video? I think obviously is really important, but I think the step before that is what are the topics? What are the themes that, you know, our competition is not touching. And this is so intrinsic to who we are as a business, a service and product. And then we can be like, okay, well, what's the best way to get that out there given our audience and given the resources we currently have? You know, a lot of times it can be really interesting to nail down that theme or that concept or that direction and go, well, let's baby step towards it. We think it would work as this high production, you know, multi episode, you know, documentary film series or something like that. Let's, let's start it as short form social posts, and if that's going well, let's turn it into a blog series. If that's going well, let's See about, you know, capturing the interviews and then turning it into a podcast, you know, and like, build the momentum around it.
- [19:52]
Rob Meyerson
Well, yeah, I, I like what you're saying, that it sounds like deciding on the type of content to create that, that really tactical level. There are, there are so many pieces that go into that, and one of the big ones just being what are you capable of producing at a high quality, you know, at a level of quality that, that you're happy with, but where you're really thinking about standing apart or fitting in is more at that strategic level around just what are the stories that we're telling? What are the themes of the content once you get down to that tactical level? Yeah, there are still. Maybe you want to try to distinguish yourself by doing a different type of content, but it's less about that. It's more about again. There are so many other decision factors that go into that that hopefully by then you've already figured out a way to kind of stand apart from the competition. I think that makes a lot of sense. I am curious, any tips for people that are just kind of at a loss? Say they've done the strategy work or they think they have that set, but they want to figure out, just, what should I create over the next 12, 24 months? You know, what, how do I put a calendar together? How often should I be posting or creating things, you know, not. And also just what should I be creating? I mean, there's again, so many different ways of doing this. How would you advise people to kind of think about diving in?
- [21:17]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I think it's a. It's a big question, and it is. It is hard to answer because it is so bespoke for every organization and every audience. So I think really understanding what's going to move the needle for your audience is critical. Understanding where they hang out online, irl, what you're trying to accomplish with the content, and what's going to bring the most value to the organization in the immediate. And then in the long term, from the brand perspective, blogs can be great for SEO. White papers are great for thought leadership and the C suite podcasts, you know, there's certainly distinct audiences in the podcast realm, but at this point, it's grown into more of a general audience as well as executives and multitaskers of all kinds. So I think you have to. You have to really think about, hey, what's going to get me the most traction for the business, given our current resources and, you know, goals vary so much for an organization dependent on what stage the company's at what they're trying to achieve in the next three, six, nine, 12 months. But I would really try to take that to heart. And if you have kind of big, ambitious, lofty goals for content, thinking about, yeah, how do I start that and gain ground and momentum in more of a kind of an easy win kind of way.
- [22:47]
Rob Meyerson
So any, any tips for building a content calendar? How, I mean, just how often to post is such a big question. Or, you know, any rules of thumb on what to post and how often?
- [22:57]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I think we're talking about this. It's really investing in the platforms that make the most sense for your brand. You're not spreading yourself too thin as we were, we were talking about. And I really like this idea of making the most of the meal, so repurposing, reusing. And I love this idea of creating franchises. You know, if you're working on a webinar series, you can capture video and audio. Audio becomes transcripts. You can kind of break that out and create this entire franchise around a series or concept or anchor piece of content that can turn into social posts, blog posts, videos for social media and for the webinar audio for podcasts. And you can even like aggregate those blog posts at the end of a series or season run, add some more material to it, and then it becomes an ebook. And as long as you're kind of creating things and building things from that foundational, strategic level, investing in the right themes, the right narratives that are going to relate to your audience, and then drilling it down from that series perspective, you're going to be able to roll it up and it's going to add value to your end audience just in this different form factor. So I think that's really important if you're going to invest the time, take as much out of it as you can and make it intentionally going into the planning of it, but then also in the distribution and marketing of it, land with your audience in different ways on different channels and mediums and platforms. And then when it comes to kind of cadence and you know, how often a post and all those things, I mean, it depends, you know, it depends on how big your team is, how big your audience is. You know, I think you really do want to stay top of mind. So posting often on social media is really important. When you're getting into bigger rock content, that's going to take more research, more time to develop. That's something that can happen on more of a quarterly basis or even kind of a half year basis. And then, yeah, thinking about Podcasts, usually a weekly or, you know, at least bi weekly basis is the right way to go. Video is the same thing. And you know, don't overlook email as a really great content channel. To get right into people's inboxes without having to kind of pay extra money to show up in their social feeds as a great way is a great way to, to reach people.
- [25:29]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah. Email is a great way also of wrapping up all of your content efforts and just linking people out to, hey, here's, you know, the past two podcast episodes, three blog posts, you know, links to our social profile. So it's a nice kind of all you can eat content. Yeah. Right in your inbox, like you said. And then I love that point about repurposing content because it's kind of a balance to, you know, don't be everywhere if you're just creating lackluster content, just, you know, trying to spread yourself out, but at the same time, if you're creating one or two great, high quality pieces of content, you can potentially carve those up into a thousand little social posts and 30 second clips for Instagram and things like that. So there is a way to, to maximize the output from whatever resources you have to create 100%.
- [26:26]
Rob Goodman
Yeah. And then you're showing up with the same message, but in unique form factors to your audience across platforms. You're reinforcing who you are as a brand and the value you bring, and you're increasing your frequency as well. So there's just a lot of, there's a lot of momentum and a lot of brand building that I think can happen in showing up in those ways as well as. Yeah, just utilizing, you know, great content and making the most of it from a resource perspective too.
- [26:54]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah. So to pivot a little bit, I want to talk about your contributions to this book, Designing Brand Identity, 6th Edition. You helped out throughout the book, but especially on the content strategy page. So thank you so much for, for your input on that.
- [27:12]
Rob Goodman
My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to be part of it. It's an incredible book and an honor to have a small part.
- [27:19]
Rob Meyerson
And it's just so great that I can reach out to experts like you on this topic that clearly I'm not an expert on. So I want to talk about some of the updates we made. I'm looking at the book right here. For anyone on video, this is the 5th edition and what we did is we just went in and I've gone to experts like Rob and just said, take a look at these two pages using your expertise what feels like maybe it could be updated and you know, it's different for different parts of the book. Sometimes things are somewhat evergreen and feel like actually it's, it's pretty good. And we're maybe just changing a few examples or something like that. Other times with something like content strategy, it's evolved quite a bit since the 5th edition. And so one of the changes we made, one of the updates was to a section called Content Types. And we've mostly been talking about original content created by brands. You touched on this idea of partnerships being so important. So some of the other types listed in the book are curated content. I just use this word evergreen. So evergreen content, sponsored content, cross promotional content. And then we haven't talked about at all user generated content. So can you just touch on all these different content types and sort of how important they are and how you might integrate them into a single content plan?
- [28:45]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I mean, I think they're all really critical. Eventually a content organization that's firing on all cylinders will likely touch on all of them. But I think what's really important and what I think a lot of these areas that you just described touch on is the importance of people discovering brands, products, services, experiences from other people, from their peers. People love peer recommendations. They love, you know, to not hear from the brand, but hear from people that they, that they trust. And I think the brand's a little biased. Right, Exactly. And so I think, you know, when you get influencers involved, when you start to curate content from the community, it's a really powerful way to really elevate your community members and your users to be the heroes of your product and service, which is such a phenomenal way to tell the story of your brand. And you know, it's the same thing for user generated content. You're putting the power of content creation of the brand into the hands of your users and you know, you're using that content to make a great impact. You know, you can have folks that are part of your community or are thought leaders in an industry, have them write, you know, the ebooks in partnership with the brand as we did at Envision, you know, having them teach courses for a product or service and having them kind of share their experiences of a brand, product or service on social media as well. You know, the, the how tos, the tips and tricks, the thought leadership, there's just so much value in that. And then the, the brand kind of gets that halo effect of being kind of the umbrella by which this content is, is associated.
- [30:40]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, I just thought of an example. And I promise I didn't set, set you up here for, for another plug for the book. But Alina for years has been posting pictures of people holding her book.
- [30:52]
Rob Goodman
Right.
- [30:52]
Rob Meyerson
And I think it, I think it happened totally organically. You know, people love the book and they'd send her a picture. She would also post pictures of herself holding the book, you know, in interesting places. And it kind of became this user generated content stream where she would always post, you know, these great pictures of people and describe who they are. And it, it's, it's nice for the people, I think in a lot of situations who get posted on Alina's account because of her following and then she would describe who they are and what they're doing and you know, if they run their own agency in some part of the world. So it's a small example, a very simple small example of user generated content. But please do, when you get the sixth edition, and this is for you, Rob, and anybody listening or watching. Yeah, send that in and we will, we will repost it on my account at least going forward. We'd love to continue that trend that Alina started years ago.
- [31:49]
Rob Goodman
That's amazing that she was really elevating the community in that way. And then they get to see other practitioners in the space and connect and kind of build a community connection even beyond what's related to the brand, which is wonderful and bring so much value to their work and their lives as well.
- [32:08]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, you used that word community. That was kind of in my head and it can be kind of corny and overused, but I really feel like in this case it's true. And I don't, again, I don't even know that that was sort of the goal specifically that Alina had when she started posting these things. But it does feel like it's created this global community of mostly branding professionals and designers who are fans of the book, but they're sort of becoming fans of each other and you know, getting, getting to feel that sense of community. So it's, it's powerful. Another update on this two page spread for content strategy that I'm really excited about is the six steps to viral content, which comes from Jonah Berger, a Wharton professor who wrote this book called Contagious. I don't know if you've read that. It's a pretty interesting dive into what makes content spread online. And so I emailed this professor and asked if we could put the content into the book. And we had a little back and forth where he edited down some of the descriptions of the steps. So I'm. I'm really kind of psyched to have that in here. I want to read these out loud and just get your reaction to them and kind of which ones resonate most. So the six steps, it's a. A mnemonic device, so S is for social currency, then triggers, emotion, public, practical value, and then stories. So steps with two P's. So we can dive a little deeper into any of those, but given that you're familiar with them, any that you think are especially important or especially interesting to talk about?
- [33:46]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I mean, I think these all resonate with me. A few kind of stand out, top of mind, I think, you know, doing things in public, showing the way that you're creating. You know, I've seen a lot of content from brands around, like how we use our product at the company, which I think is fantastic. There's kind of like an expert on expert quality there. And I think learning in public is something that can bring so much value in content. Either doing that through company ambassadors or influencers or people who are customers. Practical value is something that we've been talking about through the conversation today. And that really resonates with me. I think everything today about branded content should be focused on bringing value. It makes me think about the ebooks and audiobooks and industry reports we did at Envision for the design industry. Makes me think about the podcast that I produced and hosted at wix when we were really moving in more of a thought leadership and building B2B credibility as well. One called now what Podcast and another called Ready for Takeoff, which was focused on hyper growth and looking at the company's leaders and how they built up the organization. And at webflow launching a webinar series called Boundless, you know, to really bring in those thought leaders that are, you know, thinking about technology, about building for the web in new and impressive ways.
- [35:15]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, I've seen some of your work at these companies and I just recommend to anybody listening or watching, check out these podcasts and these video series that Rob's talking about. Because if you want to see how well produced things can be and what it looks like to see a well produced video series, you should definitely check those out. That's a lot of that is just incredible work. Also, they do add value. And Professor Berger's point here is not only that that's important for content, but that that actually results in it being more likely to be shared. So we just as human beings share information. It makes us look smart to be able to Point to somebody, point somebody to, you know, one of Rob's podcasts and say, hey, if you want to learn something, you should listen to this. So it's not just about altruism. It's also about this sort of desire to have your content go, maybe not go viral, but just be more likely to be shared.
- [36:06]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, absolutely. And stories also really rings true for me. I think everything that we have to put out from a content perspective, it has to resonate. Ideally, it resonates emotionally in some way. And stories and bringing forth the humanity in a product, in a customer journey, I think is just so critical to connecting with audiences. Makes me think about a documentary video series that I helmed at ed, which was a platform at wix, which has since morphed into WIX Studio, to tell the stories of emerging designers using the platform to make social change, to change the way business and design is happening on the web. And, you know, really just capture these individuals in really compelling ways and, you know, drove engagement and it connected us with an audience of influencers as well and patched us into these communities that these emerging designers were already talking to and living and breathing within. And also just thinking back to my Google days when we launched Google Play for education, telling stories of children in the classroom and teachers and really moving stories around the power that technology can have in the classroom and using that story to launch the product in really compelling ways. And watching those films still pulls at my heartstrings. To see the power. Yeah, just to see the power that technology can have in improving people's lives and especially when you think about young people and children and the way it can kind of aid in development and learning. Yeah, it was, it was, it was cool to be a part of.
- [37:48]
Rob Meyerson
Well, I mean, this, the story is, is one thing, but if you have an emotionally resonant story. Right. Even better. And anytime like kids are involved or pets are involved, I think by all means, if it's going to tug at the heartstrings, then you have no excuse but to create some great content out of that. Dr. Berger says stories are vessels or carriers of information. They bring ideas and information along for the ride. So it sounds like that's some of what you did at WIX and at Google and, you know, seems like great advice. Thank you for all of your advice. Also on, on content strategy, content creation. I do have some wrap up questions if you'll hang out with me for a few more minutes.
- [38:29]
Rob Goodman
Let's do it. I'm ready.
- [38:30]
Rob Meyerson
I loved.
- [38:31]
Rob Goodman
I'm in. All right.
- [38:32]
Rob Meyerson
Lightning round. Yeah, I love to try to end on something uplifting. So is there a brand out there or just something that you've seen, a company that you've seen making a positive impact on the world or something that you want to kind of promote or tell people to check out?
- [38:48]
Rob Goodman
Yeah. My old colleagues at Envision, Eli Woolery and Aaron Walter, have an amazing podcast that's now growing into a platform called Design Better. And they have DB plus just incredible conversations with leaders now of all kinds, you know, sharing insights. And they've got this platform that teams within companies can sign up for and just get greater learning experience and access. So really love what they're doing with Design Better and db. ADP List is another organization I really admire for mentoring, design, mentorship and leadership. There's. And then just thinking about some arts organizations that I really, really believe in. Creativityexplored.org and rootdivision.org, both based in the Bay Area where we are both located. So encourage people to check out all those platforms for all the different reasons.
- [39:47]
Rob Meyerson
Fantastic. Yeah, we'll put links in the show notes for people who want to check those out. Any book recommendations? We've talked a lot about books Designing Brand Identity. Other than that, anything that you've read recently that you recommend?
- [39:59]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I've been reading Storynomics, which I really enjoyed. It's about brand and brand storytelling and it kind of leans into that story notion not only in content, but how to tell the story of your business and your products. This one's a couple years old now, but obsessed by Emily Hayward from Red Antler. I just think is a phenomenal resource. Of course, love your book Designing Brand Identity with with Alina and just an incredible resource for folks that are listening. I think it's for designers, but it's really for practitioners of brand across the spectrum, whether they be in in marketing or creative or even business. And another one that's a little bit of wild card, but, you know, really love it is Rick Rubin's new book on creativity. Certainly I think, you know, like intrinsic to the work of a designer, of a brand strategist of a content maker from a different angle, but just really incredible to see his insights when it comes to kind of the creative path.
- [41:12]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, I have Rick Rubin's book on a shelf in my house. I admit I have not read it yet, but it is a beautiful book. So you can do what I did and just buy it for the look and keep it there until you have a chance to read it. It's on My list, but in the meantime, it's making the house look nicer. And then Emily's book. I agree. She was on a podcast one or two seasons ago, so I encourage people to go listen to what Emily had to say. It was right around the time the book came out, given people's interest in content strategy. And we've talked about how it seems to be sort of a growing practice within marketing. Any advice for anyone listening that's trying to start a career, get into content strategy or production, or just grow a career in that space?
- [41:58]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I mean, there's so many ways into it. My path was really unique, coming from more of an art and design and creative background than moving into marketing. Marketing campaigns, marketing strategy, product positioning and brand strategy, as we talked about. And then ultimately content strategy, Making, creating, producing was always intrinsic to what I love doing, and that's what I love doing most these days. You know, there are tons of great courses on idou Creative confidence or Leading with creativity, I think is one of their, one of their courses. And they just offer, you know, a really great approach when it comes to design thinking, but pairing that with strategy and leadership. I took one of their strategy courses last year and just found it, you know, phenomenal. And there's any number of kind of online schools nowadays. You have a great course, Rob, at Domestika on naming, is that right?
- [42:54]
Rob Meyerson
Thanks for plugging all my stuff, Rob. I appreciate it. That's why I had you on.
- [42:58]
Rob Goodman
I'm happy to. Yeah, I think, look, most of all it's about getting your hands dirty and to start making. You know, we were talking about this earlier, but nowadays with AI, you can really kind of jump yourself forward. I mean, you can learn about strategy using AI. You can start making podcasts, videos, social assets using AI in ways that are, you know, just, just faster and more professional than, than ever before. So I think there's just, there's a lot of ability to kind of get your hands dirty. And, you know, I think the most important thing is to really look at things with a strong editorial lens. I mean, being thoughtful and research driven and research oriented around what your audience is going to care about, it's got to be elevated the content you create and it's got to stand out. So I think leaning into the learning, the tools and then the originality I think is a great way to get started.
- [43:58]
Rob Meyerson
That's great advice. And I'm going to turn the tables on you a little bit and plug some of your stuff, because I think anyone who wants to learn about this space should be checking your stuff out and following you online. Check out the work that you mentioned at Wix, like I said and InVision, just to see some really high quality produced content and to see content strategy at work. Also, your personal podcast Making Ways is fun, but also just a great example of content creation and looking at collaboration that we talked a little bit about earlier and the way that you work with bands and artists to create that content. So with that note, where where should people find you online if they want to learn more about you and your work? What's the best place to go?
- [44:45]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, I think LinkedIn is a great place. I'm working on a new website right now, but in the interim, robgoodman.com kind of has a good summary of what I've been up to. And then yeah, my podcast. Thanks for mentioning it about the art of music. You can learn more and see some of the artwork I create there for the episodes at Makingways. Co co. Yeah, so thanks so much Rob for shouting out some of my stuff.
- [45:11]
Rob Meyerson
Yeah, thanks for joining me on the podcast. I encourage everyone to follow Rob and check out those links that he just mentioned. And Rob, thanks for joining me on the show.
- [45:20]
Rob Goodman
Yeah, it's great to be here. Rob. Thanks so much for having me.
- [45:25]
Rob Meyerson
Thanks for listening to How Brands Are Built. If you liked the episode, please leave a rating and review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about Rob Goodman, visit robgoodman.com youm can also find Rob on LinkedIn and check out that podcast Making Ways at Makingways. That's w a y s dot co to buy or or learn more about designing brand identity. You can find it on Amazon or go to dbi book.com How Brands Are Built is a production of Heirloom Agency, LLC. Our theme music is by Esha Erskine Project. I'm Rob Meyerson and I'll talk to you next time.