Robin Goffman is all in on Designing Brand Identity

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Robin Goffman Is All In on Designing Brand Identity”

How Brands Are Built | Host: Rob Meyerson | Guest: Robin Goffman
Date: November 14, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Rob Meyerson sits down with Robin Goffman, a branding and design strategist known for her key role in multiple editions of Designing Brand Identity (DBI), the iconic book by Alina Wheeler. The discussion focuses on Robin’s winding path into design, the nuts and bolts of book design (with special emphasis on DBI), insights from her work with branding legend Alina Wheeler, and what it really means to work as both a designer and strategist. The episode is a deep dive into career journeys, design education, and the craftsmanship required to produce a major branding reference manual.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining ‘Creative Strategist’

• Robin’s Evolving Title: Robin shares her struggle with professional labels, explaining why "creative strategist" resonates with her more than just "designer" or "graphic designer".
  • “Sometimes I feel like I only do design 50% of the time and the other 50% is brainstorming, creative ideation, thinking about… how we can use design to connect to the greater strategy, listening.”
    (Robin, 03:08)
• The dual role is influenced both by being independent and having a hard time "staying in her lane," enjoying involvement across tactics and strategy.

2. Robin’s Path Into Design

• Family Influence and Early Experience: Robin credits her sister, who started Edge Magazine in high school, for launching her design journey.
  • “I wouldn’t be who I am or where I am without my sister. And she sort of chose this career for me…”
    (Robin, 05:21)
• She learned Adobe programs from a local university student tutor as a young teen, leading to her early foray into practical design work.
• Temple University’s Unique Fit:
  Robin sought a program combining creativity with business/strategy—the art direction track in Temple University’s advertising program was the perfect match.

3. On Formal vs. Informal Design Education

• Robin sees value in both routes: formal education provides networking and structure, while self-teaching and informal learning (like YouTube/Instagram tutorials) is vital for ongoing skills.
  • “I think especially in today’s world, there’s no getting by without a little bit of the informal.”
    (Robin, 12:02)
• Networking was a key benefit of Robin’s college experience.

4. Getting Involved with Designing Brand Identity

• Through her professor, Kathy Mueller, Robin became Alina Wheeler’s assistant on DBI's 5th edition while still in college.
• On Not Knowing What to Expect:
  • “My mom’s favorite story to tell is after I left [the interview], I called her and I was like, I have no idea what the job is, but I got it and I’m so excited.”
    (Robin, 14:21)
• Working closely with Alina was like a masterclass, and Robin observed firsthand how an independent designer runs a business.

5. Transition to Freelancing and Studio RBG

• Robin’s freelance work for Kathy Mueller and then Alina lifted the curtain on working for oneself. She stayed on with DBI before taking a full-time job with a tech startup.

6. Behind the Scenes of Book Design

• DBI is a massive logistical endeavor—over 300 pages, two-page spreads, images to source, and permissions to obtain.
  • “We have to get permissions for every single image that is in this over 300-page book. And that is a beast…”
    (Robin, 21:05)
• The Challenges:
  Image permissions and file organization are uniquely challenging for book projects.
• The Rewards:
  The chance to connect with admired agencies, experts, and contributors is a highlight (“those conversations are the best part of working on it,” Rob, 23:50).

7. Book vs. Other Design Work

• Rhythm, Pacing, and Curation:
  Book design is about cumulative effect: rhythm, negative space, and how all decisions add up to a seamless experience.
  • “It’s almost more about the accumulation of all the small and very thoughtful details that went into it…”
    (Robin, 30:05)
• Grids & Constraints:
  Structural systems (like a rigorous grid) help manage consistency and decision-making across hundreds of pages; editing and curation are essential.
• Tools of the Trade:
  InDesign is the go-to (“the layout tool”), with PowerPoint joked about as a (bad) alternative. Global changes and file organization are easier in InDesign.

8. Partnership & Workflow

• Rob and Robin’s process involved crude slide-based mockups (Rob) refined into final pages (Robin), reflecting their need for both visual and textual structure.
  • “I needed to see the text is going to go here. And I can’t even tell you exactly why…I just needed a tether to reality.”
    (Rob, 43:54)
• The balance of curation, writing, and page layout is different from traditional publishing, far more collaborative and iterative.

9. Learning from Alina Wheeler: Philosophy & Legacy

• Alina’s Impact:
  Both Robin and Rob emphasize how Alina inspired belief and passion without force or agenda—her energy was “contagious,” and being around her made others want to care as deeply.
  • “She made people believe in things…She made you just—people believe in the things that she was passionate about. She made you believe in just the idea of being passionate about things.”
    (Robin, 50:13)
• Even with Alina’s passing, her lessons on passion, energy, and leadership-by-example remain central to both Robin and Rob’s work.

10. Advice & Takeaways for Designers

• Pursue what feels right for your skills—find the intersections between design, strategy, and your own interests.
• Harness both formal and informal learning.
• Be intentional about passion; surround yourself (and others) with contagious enthusiasm.
• Recognize the power of mentorship, networking, and the value of projects that are as challenging as they are rewarding.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Being a ‘Creative Strategist’:
  “It often just feels like it’s not just design.”
  (Robin, 03:08)

• On the DBI Book Permissions Process:
  “We have to get permissions for every single image that is in this over 300-page book. And that is a beast to…work on.”
  (Robin, 21:05)

• On Alina Wheeler’s Influence:
  “She made you just—people believe in the things that she was passionate about. She made you believe in just the idea of being passionate about things.”
  (Robin, 50:13)

• On Passion:
  “Not just for yourself, believe in things and again, like, want to and be excited to, but also to just bring that contagious energy to other people too…”
  (Robin, 51:51)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:08 – Robin explains why “creative strategist” is her chosen title
• 05:21 – Robin’s early design journey, thanks to her sister’s high school magazine
• 09:26 – 12:02 – Discussion on formal vs. informal education in design
• 13:08 – How Robin got involved with Designing Brand Identity
• 19:12 – 23:50 – The highs and lows of working on a book: logistics, permissions, and networking
• 30:05 – The importance of details, rhythm, and curation in book design
• 34:59 – 36:00 – Technical aspects: InDesign, grids, global changes
• 43:54 – 44:47 – How the collaborative author/designer workflow played out in practice
• 50:13 – Robin sums up Alina Wheeler’s mentoring magic and legacy

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Closing Reflections

Robin’s story provides a close-up look at the paths designers can take into branding and publishing. The episode is a behind-the-scenes look at the real work of building a major design reference—equal parts tedious, exhilarating, collaborative, and, ultimately, deeply rewarding. Throughout, the spirit of mentorship, multidisciplinary thinking, and the power of passion shine through.

For more on Robin’s work:
robingaufman.com
For information on the book:
DBIBook.com

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Summary compiled and formatted for clarity and completeness by an expert podcast summarizer. For questions or follow-up, visit the official “How Brands Are Built” website.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to How Brands Are Built, where branding professionals get into the details of what they do and how they do it. I'm your host Rob Meyerson. Thanks for listening. This episode of How Brands Are Built is brought to you by Tracksuit Want always on Brand metrics to deliver value to stakeholders. Tracksuit is a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer, market and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working? Check them [e-mail] Today's guest is my friend Robin Goffman. Robin is a brand thinker and design strategist through Studio rbg. She provides services including brand development, graphic design and web design. And for over six years she's been involved with Designing Brand Identity, Alina Wheeler's iconic branding book. That, of course, is how I met Robin. One of the first things Alina did after asking me to co author the sixth edition of the book was introduced me to Robin, who'd been instrumental in the creation of the fifth edition. Partnering with Robin on the sixth edition was a joy. Not only did Robin lay out every page of the book, she also helped keep things organized, served as a second pair of eyes on text and more. I wanted to talk to Robin for two main reasons. First off, to get her perspective on starting a career in design and branding, the path she took and what she's learned along the way. Second, to learn more about the kind of design work she does, including book design, which is not something we've talked about on this podcast before. Robin is such a delight to talk to. I always have fun chatting with her and I think you'll enjoy this conversation as well. Here it is. Robin Goffman, thank you so much for joining on How Brands Are Built.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

I'm excited to finally have you on the show. I've been trying to get you on the show for a while, so thanks for making time in your busy schedule.

[B]

Let's just be clear like it hasn't happened yet for a million reasons, but me being too busy popular is not my fault.

[A]

But I have been wanting to chat with you about designing brand identity that we partnered on to create with Alina Wheeler for two years. I think it took us about for this sixth edition and I know you had worked on previous editions as well. So we want to talk a lot about the book, about Alina and then I also, just because I rarely have designers on the show at all to be honest, want to talk to you a little bit about your career including Designing Brand Identity, but also outside of that Sort of how you got to where you are and a couple of questions along those lines. So just to get us started, I was looking at your website in preparation for this conversation and I saw that you describe yourself there as a creative strategist. I'm sure some thought went into that. Can you talk a little bit about how you chose that and why you use that as opposed to something like designer or graphic designer or something along those lines?

[B]

Yeah, sure. And you saw that on my website, which a lot of us feel is on the bottom of my list, but to be updated. It's a great question and it's something that I struggle with. And I've changed what I call myself a million times because honestly, sometimes I feel like I don't know what to call myself. I of course, am a designer and think of myself as a designer and call myself a designer in certain settings. But I feel like it doesn't really, it doesn't feel like enough of what I am because this may just be like the work that I do or the clients that I work with. But I would say sometimes I feel like I only do design 50% of the time and the other 50% is brainstorming, creative ideation, thinking about like how we can use design to connect to the greater strategy, listening. I don't know, like it's, it often just feels like it's not just design.

[A]

More than just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that because you're on your own.

[B]

You think it might be.

[A]

Whereas maybe if you were part of a 10 person company, you would be able to just do the design and let other people worry about some of that other stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I think partially yes, partially no. Because I have a hard time staying in my lane, which.

[C]

In the best.

[A]

Way can be a good thing. A good thing too. Well, I think, you know, we always talk about designers and strategists, that part of the job is to sometimes we say interrogate the brief. So just because somebody asks you to do something. Yeah. Sometimes it can be a good kind of pushback to say, are we sure this is the right thing? And so the creative strategy piece comes in there as well. I was just double checking here because I wanted to plug the website while we're talking about it. So RobinGaufman.com is the website, if you're curious to take a look at Robin's work and I'm sure we'll mention it again at the end of the conversation. One thing I also wanted to ask, to remind me, why don't you really quickly give kind of an Overview of how you became a designer and how you got to where you are right now in your career. And I'm going to ask you about your education as well. So if you want to drop in your design education, that would help as well.

[B]

Yeah, sure. How I got into design is one of my favorite stories to tell because I wouldn't be who I am or where I am without my sister. And she sort of chose this career for me without even realizing it. But when she was in high school, she and one of her friends started a magazine. It was sort of like. It was called Edge Magazine. It was like pop culture music. They interviewed some, like, really cool people who were writing books, starting TV shows. And she found a graphic designer at local university. And she decided she was like, I don't want to be paying this person. They weren't making any money, obviously, to design this. Like, Robin, you would be amazing at this. I was into art growing up, painting and drawing and all sorts of crafts, but never really, like, even thought about design. But, yeah, she was like, I'm finding you a student and who will tutor you and teach you the Adobe program. So she came over once a week.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

For.

[A]

How old are you? At this point?

[B]

I was probably maybe like a freshman in high school or like 8th grade freshman in high school. My sister was in high school. She was three years older. So, yeah. So this woman was my design tutor and came over for an hour a week and I learned the basics of Illustrator and InDesign and Photoshop. The first thing I made, which is very appropriate for me, was a cupcake logo. I like to bake. So.

[A]

So it wasn't something for Edge magazine. You instead focused on.

[B]

Yeah. The important.

[A]

So you took your sister's. Right. She's. Is she paying for this student to come. To come teach you or how did that work?

[B]

I'm sure. I honestly forget, but I'm sure my parents did. I'm sure they got.

[A]

I just like. Yeah, I like that you took the lessons, but instead of working on the magazine, you're like, I'm doing my own thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's really incredibly entrepreneurial of. Of your sister not only working on this magazine, but then like, roping you into. I mean, yeah, like any, like any good entrepreneur, she's trying to cut costs and other people in.

[B]

Exactly. So. So, yeah, I designed these printed issues. I still have them. We still love them so much. And it was so fun. I learned so much. And so then as I was starting to look and think about college, I knew I wanted to do something creative. I love design, but I also knew that I could not be an art student, like on a lot of fronts, but just wasn't for me. And so finding a school and a program that could combine both of these things, design, but also some sort of business or marketing or strategy was hard. So the list, it was a small list to work with. And Temple University in Philadelphia had an art direction track within their advertising program in the media and communication school. And I went there and I'm a huge Temple fan.

[A]

Shout out to Temple.

[B]

Yeah, huge shout out to Temple on that program. And yeah. So that's sort of how I landed into that area. And then at Temple, my first design class within that program was Design Direction one with Kathy Mueller, who, if anybody has heard the two of us talk before, heard us talk about her.

[A]

This name.

[B]

Yes, Kathy.

[A]

Very, very involved with Designing Brand Identity, which we'll get into.

[B]

Yes. So then most of my design in school, I learned from her in her classes and she is how I got involved in Designing Brand Identity as well.

[A]

So you got to Temple and the rest is history. But we're going to talk about that history in a second here. Before we get any further though, I want to just talk about design education. Do you have strong opinions on the pros and cons of going to some kind of more formal education, like a university versus design, trying to pick up tips online?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, honestly, my answer is it just depends on the person. Like I, I think there are some people that thrive in different settings and some may thrive more in a formal education versus not, I think, because I often will categorize and think of myself as a self taught designer. I'm always for like teaching yourself, picking things up on your own, not needing a formal education in order to like move forward or get the job or do this work. So I do have a soft spot for that. On the flip side, I think I'm always very aware and maybe this is just a little imposter syndrome, which I know we all have tiny parts of that. I do not have a formal design education. I didn't go through a formal graphic design program as an art student. Yeah. And so I think I've grown a lot from being worried about, about that than when I was just starting out.

[A]

That's why the imposter syndrome is good sometimes, because it pushes us a little bit. It's bad. It's bad and it's good.

[B]

Yeah. So, but I do think, I think that there's something to be said about, you know, take Temple University as an example, their art school, Tyler, the graphic design program is incredible. Like, the work that I remember being a student and friends with some graphic designers who are in that program, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I could never do that. Like, the quality is just insane. So I see both sides. But in today's, there's so much. I just. On Instagram this morning, I saw these, like, there were three tutorials from this Illustrator that I saved, and I was like, I had no idea I could do that in Illustrator. So there's just so much out there now.

[A]

Well, I do think that the Instagram and YouTube stuff, and I assume TikTok is great for continuing education too, because there's. I mean, literally Adobe is always changing and adding and, you know, we're going to talk about even, like, the AI tools that they've added. And so even if you had studied diligently for four years, like, none of that stuff would have been covered.

[B]

There's always more.

[A]

You also kind of accidentally brought up a big benefit of the more formal route, though, which is that you got to meet all those designers in the program at temple. And so even just the networking that you get from a more formal environment, which, you know, you can get from an online course, it's more online networking than in person. But that's something that you don't get if you're just watching, you know, a bunch of YouTube videos and Instagram tips. So, yeah, I hear you. I think pros and cons, and probably some of the best designers out there just have like a mix of some sort of a little bit formal, a little bit informal.

[B]

Yeah. I think especially in today's world, there's no getting by without a little bit of the informal. I have a very quick question for you. You just said, I assume, TikTok. Does that mean you are not an avid TikToker?

[A]

I'm not an avid. I think I have an account. I've used it. I try to keep myself educated, but honestly, honestly, it was just like, one too many tools. It was nothing against TikTok or anything. It was just like I already had so many other platforms that I was trying to attend to that I was like, I can't do one more. And then all this stuff started happening where they were maybe gonna ban it in the US anyway, and I was like, well, I'm not gonna invest in it now. I have seen some great, like, tutorials. Luckily, a lot of the best, I think designers who use it also just repost their stuff on Instagram. So I get to see it there. So I know one of the things that happened to you while you were at temple is you, through Kathy, got involved with Designing Brand Identity. I do want to hear that story, but I'm also just curious, kind of how you transitioned from school into running your own design studio. So I don't know how much those stories are really kind of interwoven. Is it easy to kind of tell both at once?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, definitely can tell both at once. Sometimes I feel like everything leads back to DBI and Alina, so there'll be a good segue. But I was a sophomore in one of Kathy Mueller's classes and Kathy reached out to me saying she is on the book team for Designing Brand Identity. And the author, Alina Wheeler, is going to be starting on her fifth edition and she's looking for a student Internet, slash assistant, slash a little bit of everything. I never know what to call myself. Also for my role there, Creative strategist.

[A]

That she was looking for a creative strategist.

[B]

Yeah. And so I ended up, I'll never forget, I went to Alina's apartment for an interview and I really had like no idea what she was talking about, but she was so kind and Kathy was there. And Kathy seemed so comfortable and at home there. And so it was a very casual environment just to chat in. And I got the job. And my mom's favorite story to tell is after I left, I called her and I was like, I have no idea what the job is, but I got it and I'm so excited.

[A]

So was that because you're. You're like 19 at this point and a sophomore? Is it because you were so young and new to all of this or, or do you feel like if you went to that meeting today, you still would kind of be like, what are we doing?

[B]

I think it was a combination.

[A]

What was she talking.

[B]

It was a combination of both. And maybe I'm being dramatic. Like I, I was able to have a conversation with her about what she needed. But Alina has such a big personality and speaks with like such imagination and.

[C]

Vastness that she could go off on.

[B]

Tangents sometimes or talk about something super high level and strategic. And I think that's the part that being so young and having no experience, like the strategic thinking part, I was like, okay, I, I kind of get where you're going, but you were probably.

[A]

Looking for like, what do you actually need to do? Like, what am I, what is my day to day activity going to be? And I couldn't really, I could See how Alina would gloss over that part and get to, like, her vision.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. Super visionary. Yeah. But so, yeah, I started my sophomore year, started working with her. I was at her apartment two times a week. I think that temple in my education was incredible. Like, can't say anything negative about it. But in parallel, I had my own little masterclass education at Alina Wheeler's house. And I also got to work with her on some of her client work, which was really cool. And I think that that's really where it started for me of, like, understanding how someone can work for themselves and what those projects could be and what that looks like, because I, I got to see it super close up with her.

[A]

And this is paid work for you as a student, which is amazing. And you're getting this one on one time with a design legend, you know, a brand legend, and getting to work with your professor Kathy on a project and kind of building an understanding of, of how to run a, run a business. And this is sort of a resume build. Well, not sort of. This is like a big resume builder at the same time. So it's a win. It's like a win, win, win, win.

[B]

And I forget if it was my sophomore, it might have been my junior year. Kathy, in addition to being a professor at Temple, also took on freelance work. And she actually brought me on to a few of her clients to support her doing design work. So in addition to working with Alina and getting that experience of how she was sort of led her business, I also got to freelance with Kathy a bit. And between the two of those things, I was like, oh, this is how. This is so cool. Like somebody, I could do this. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So did you, did you graduate? And I mean, at that point, I think the fifth edition probably had come out already when you graduated.

[B]

No, actually, so it still had. The week or two weeks before I graduated, I flew to Chicago with Alina for one of hou's design conferences because we had been working on. That was Alina's second David Bowie talk. So we had been working on that and I got to go with her, which was like one of the best trips ever. It was so cool.

[C]

And.

[B]

And then I graduated, and then it was like that summer or fall, we were gonna submit the book and be done, done, done for real. And I was so committed to Alina and designing brand identity that I really wanted to, like, be in it in those last few months. So I actually wasn't even like looking or applying for full time jobs. I had a few freelance Clients in the background. So I decided to just like be all in on the book. Had some clients in the background. And then once we published the fifth edition a few months later, one of my clients was a tech startup and they hired me.

[A]

All right, well, let's talk about the book a little bit. So just first off, everyone needs to see the book. This one has my tape on it to remind me this is my copy and not to accidentally give it away to somebody that's smart, because I feel.

[B]

Like that's something you might do.

[A]

I have to apologize to Eddie Opara for marring his beautiful cover, though, with my painter's tape. But I really. Yes, I needed. I have a lot of copies and I sometimes give them away and I just wanted. This is the one that I write in and things like that, which, if you have a copy, is recommended. Take notes and it adds sticky notes. It is definitely that kind of book. So we talked a little bit about how you got involved in the book, but let's just talk about what it is like working on the book. So what are some of your favorite and least favorite parts of working in a book like this? And it could be anything. And whether it's specific to this book or whether it's just about, like book design in general.

[B]

Yeah, a lot.

[A]

I mean, a lot of favorites or a lot of. Least favorites.

[B]

A lot of favorites. Of course, because of my relationship with Alina and what the experience of working with her and building a relationship was. To me, the book has such a special place in my heart that everything related to the book, even the very annoying things that can go wrong in indesign with all of the pages and image files, I love all of it. It's such a special book and project to be a part of. So I really genuinely do love all of it. Are you going to call me out on that?

[A]

You just mentioned that. No, it's just. You're alluding, though, to how much of a logistical challenge it is, which, yeah, is kind of obvious for anyone who spends a minute thinking about what it would take to do a book like this, but that, you know, otherwise might not be immediately clear. That There are over 300 pages which are broken up into two page spreads, and that, you know, we're. We're managing all of those. Or you're managing all of those. So even just the file management, because each of those might have multiple revisions and edits. And that for me, it is a headache. It seems like more of a headache for you. Luckily for me, you're doing A lot of the work there. But that is definitely like a challenge that seems somewhat unique to book design is just keeping track of all of the files.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot of file management and file. I think more importantly file organization. And I actually don't mind that part of it. I think one of my, one of my least favorite parts are the permissions for images. So we have to get permissions for every single image that is in this over 300 page book. And that is a beast to. To work on.

[A]

Yeah, I will say Alina. Alina warned me many, many times how hard that would be. I have emails from her telling me, you know, to watch out for that part of the. And I still somehow was surprised how tough it is. So just to explain that for a second. For any photo or piece of artwork in the book that is somebody else's copyright, you need to get formal permission for them and our publisher, I mean I imagine most publishers, but they have a form that they need people to sign. That's part of it. It's also getting the high res versions. Right. So sometimes you get permission but then you're like the one you sent us is we can only print this big because otherwise it looks blurry or pixelated. So getting both the high res image and the permission. And sometimes we had situations where we had, you know, an image. Like we wanted an image in the book to represent some touch point or concept and we'd be chasing three or four companies or agencies at once to basically just see who got back to us first with yes, permission and high res version. Okay, that's our example of this. I mean obviously we would limit it to just what we thought were the best examples. But sometimes it kind of comes down to like, well, we wanted to use this image but we just never heard back from these people. So we're going to go with this other image. It was a real slog. Lots of emails in addition to all.

[B]

The files and chase chasing down people and responses. And I think that is a challenging part of the process. Like often if we land on a case study that we love, you and I will look through the images on that case study on the website and pick out a handful that really speak to us and think would be amazing. And then we fall in love with it on the spread. It makes the whole thing come to life and then we can't get permissions for it and we sort of have to start all over.

[C]

And so the whole image selection and.

[B]

Permissions I think might be my least favorite part of the Book.

[A]

Yeah. Although I will. The flip side of, you know, all those emails at least, is just. And part of the reason I did the book is getting to have conversations with people that I otherwise wouldn't talk to. So contacting agencies that I've always admired their work or, you know, individual designers and also seeing like, some are so excited to be involved and they're so helpful and, you know, I also. We need help on certain parts of the book. You know, typography or, you know, event design, things that are not areas of expertise for me. And so reaching out to experts and getting them involved was. Was also just a really like, fun and interesting and educational part of working on the book. So the emails are, Are painful, but also sometimes, you know, those conversations are the best part of working on it.

[B]

Yeah. Would you say that's also your least favorite part?

[A]

The, the permissions or the whole, the.

[B]

Whole process that we were just talking about?

[A]

No, I. Well, I hear you. That it's also. There is some, I think for both you and me, there's some like, comfort that comes from like, the organizational aspect of it.

[B]

Like, it's very grounding.

[A]

Yeah. And it's, it, it's rewarding to see. I think this is maybe what it is for me. Like, I, I need to see progress in a project to feel. I need that, like, that emotional feedback of like, we're making headway here. And so having. We had all kinds of checklists and different ways of tracking what was done. And so while it was painful, the fact that, you know, getting an email could be the check mark that we needed for permission on something and then we could move that from this column to this column. And we're seeing that we're slowly making progress on. It was nice because I think we've both also had plenty of projects where you just don't have that. You know, for client. Client work, sometimes you're just like waiting for feedback and then the feedback is ambiguous and so there's this ambiguity of like, are we almost done or are we going to be doing this for a lot longer? Whereas with the book, we had a deadline and we were working towards that deadline. And so it was painful, but not necessarily my, my least favorite part of it. Honestly, the hardest thing for me, I've worked on a couple of other books too, and one of the hardest things is just waiting for it to come out when you're done. That's probably. That might. My least favorite thing is just feeling like, ah, I'm finished. And there's this big relief and then you kind of wish it would publish like the next week and you'd get to share it with everyone. But obviously there's work that needs to be done. Copyedting, proofreading, physical creation of the book, and the publisher has work to do, and so you're just kind of waiting for it. The anticipation is kind of fun and, you know, you build some buzz, build some excitement, but it's hard to be patient.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair. Especially this was a labor of love. And it also not to bring the tone down, but we finished up and it was published right around when Alina, unfortunately passed away. And so I think with this edition particularly, there was like a lot of that sort of so many feelings and emotions and weird things happening and waiting for it to come out, and then the emotion of it coming out and.

[A]

Navigating that, the mixed feelings. Absolutely. Of having it come out. And unfortunately, Alina not getting to physically hold a copy of the book. I'm so glad that she saw it finished in digital form at least, and probably printed, you know, off of a printer copies of the spreads as well.

[B]

Oh, she did. I brought them to her.

[A]

Right. Well, she definitely worked on those and I think, yeah, she saw the finished ones. Right.

[B]

So she did.

[A]

Yeah. I'm glad she got to do that. But I wish, of course, that she could have been here to celebrate the release of it and to talk about it with us because, I mean, this conversation, you know, she's obviously the huge missing piece of the puzzle here and there's so much that she could tell us about the history of the book and why she did certain things she did, which, you know, you and I asked her plenty of questions about. And so I feel like we know a lot of that, but it's not the same as having her here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tracksuit is a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working A tool like Tracksuit helps track the impact of your marketing and find out the the unique selling points your brand has over its competitors. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for businesses in competitive categories to measure and communicate the value of brand building. Thanks to our friends at Tracksuit for sponsoring this episode. Check it [e-mail] that's gotraxuit.com so let's dive back in. We were talking about designing Brand Identity, the sixth edition that we partnered on for two years in the trenches getting this thing designed and updated new content with Alina Page by page. So one of the things I wanted to really get into is just what it's like being a designer working on a book. Because I think a lot of. I imagine a lot of people listening, if they are designers, maybe they've worked on visual identity systems or websites or even ads, things like that. But a book seems kind of different, partly just the volume of it. And you've done multiple editions of this book. What's something that's different, I guess, about designing a book or something that you maybe wouldn't expect when you get to this sort of page layout stuff?

[C]

Yeah, it's an interesting question, I think. I mean, with any design project and design process, I think that there are so many similarities, but to some extent I almost feel like, you know, an identity project or a campaign project is at a high level. You're kind of like distilling big or bold ideas into what those visuals and what the creative could look like. And that exists with book design. But it's almost more just because of the quantity of pages and content load, it's almost more about like the rhythm and readability and pacing of how all of the content comes together within the book. And so I think in this specific case with dbi, when I think about it, I almost feel like the design process and the book design was. It's almost more about the accumulation of all of the small and very thoughtful details that went into it to create like that overall seamless experience. And when you flip through the 300 plus pages, all of those small details sort of come to life in a way that feel maybe different than an identity project or, you know, other other sorts of design projects.

[A]

There's no sort of centerpiece like a visual identity system. Typically there's a logo or something that kind of is the focal point and maybe everything else builds out from that. In some cases with a website, there's like the homepage is very clearly like that's the centerpiece to. To some degree. I mean, I guess with a book, there's the COVID which you didn't work on. Yeah, but even that, I mean, sometimes the COVID of the book doesn't really tell you anything about what the interior of the book is going to look like. There's certainly no.

[C]

And in DBI's case, that for every edition, the covers are pretty. Are pretty separate. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So you did have a. You had. What's the word for it? A framework within which you were already working. And we talked about how. Kathy, that's what. Yeah, you had a grid. Right. And and how Kathy had helped define that or refine that. So there are some kind of rules that you're playing in, which I guess is often the case in any kind of design, certainly web design, there are sizes and things that you need to be aware of, but there's also just a lot of decision making on every single page and things can move around. We could put this here, put this there. One of the things I love about the look of this book is the amount of negative space that we managed to get into. Some pages, some pages are pretty packed. Other pages, there's a lot of breathing room, I guess, just to get really technical. You're working in InDesign, right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's kind of the main tool. Is that as far as you know, is that like what anyone working on a book like this would probably go to as?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What does InDesign allow you to do that that you couldn't do in something like Photoshop or Illustrator or some other tool or even figma or Canva or something like that?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You don't identify as a designer, but this is. All of these questions are like your favorite types of questions to ask.

[A]

I want to get into the weeds. You want to know. Totally. Well, it's also, I mean, this is how brands are built and I want to get into the weeds. So I'm trying to dig out of you like some of those nerdy little details that you might not hear on the other podcasts.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So out of within the Adobe Creative Suite, Photoshop is photo editing, manipulation, all those sorts of things. Illustrator is really like vector based graphics, although you can, you know, get away with using it for type based things. But InDesign is really like the layout tool. So all of the. It has, you know, the features that exist within it of like all the, you know, nerdy type things. Kerning and leading and making sure if you have a quotation mark, which I'm just calling out because you and I had lots of fun with making sure that all of the quotation marks used were perfectly aligned.

[A]

Yeah. What's that called? A hanging indent or something like that. Right. To make sure the, that the.

[C]

Yeah, so. So those, those sorts of things really exist within InDesign as well as, you know, like thinking about laying out pages versus spreads and having a cover page and then a spread and pagination. All of those things exist within InDesign versus others. I also use Figma now. I was not a huge Figma user when we were working on the 6th edition, and I don't even know if it existed when I worked on the fifth edition. But honestly, I've never really thought about like the potential of, of creating something like a book in a figma. But I. I personally love InDesign and so I don't think that I personally would like go to a separate tool.

[A]

To, you know what I would use? You know what tool I would use?

[C]

PowerPoint.

[A]

That would not go well, I don't think.

[C]

Certainly not if you had to create a book in PowerPoint and only you had access to it and you designed it and managed it and knew how you build everything, I think you could do it actually.

[A]

Well, you can build templates and I assume you could do that in InDesign. Right. You have different page types and PowerPoint is made for different slide types. So there are probably. There's some overlap. But I think when you're talking about 300 pages, that gets a little unwieldy, probably no matter what you're working in. But certainly would in PowerPoint, I would start to forget what I had decided on one page, which I know, I mean, that's an issue in a book this long. It's like the consistency issue of how did we do this on page three? And now we're on page 275 and trying to make sure. So you did sometimes have to make global changes, color decisions. There were words that we decided, you know, there are multiple ways of spelling it and we decided we're always going to spell it this way or things like that. Is that pretty easy in InDesign? Is it just find and replace or are there other ways to kind of handle global changes?

[C]

Yeah, all of those sorts of global changes are really easy in an InDesign.

[B]

Just your point about like the level.

[C]

And quantity of pages. This is super technical, but because each section within the book is already, you know, anywhere from 100 to maybe a little bit over that pages, we have multiple InDesign files. So we have what we call front matter, which is, you know, those first two pages, table of contents, intro, things like that. And then we have section one, section two, section three, and then back matter.

[B]

Which is really the index.

[C]

And they're all connect. All of the InDesign files are connected and global changes can be connected within those as well.

[A]

That's cool. Yeah, I was going to ask that. So even though they're separate files, there's a way to connect them so that global changes still affect all, I guess, five files. Right. Front matter, the three parts and then back matter.

[C]

Yeah, it has to Be set up in a way. But yes, and I would say also just going back to this idea of having a grid and having a, having a structured system there.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like so many similarities in web design and having a design system. But with this book specifically, I think the grid is probably the most important thing, an aspect of designing the book. To your point, there's so much content that we're sifting through and researching and trying to narrow down to figure out what is the most important, what are like the best things that we want to include on the pages. And honestly the grid helps tremendously. You know, like sometimes case studies, as example, when you and I were doing all the research and going through, there could be anywhere from like 2 to 25 incredible options of imagery that we.

[B]

Want to include food and knowing like.

[C]

Okay, well this is the system we could have. Maybe Max, like 5 does help the process a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. As an author, having those constraints is actually really relieving. And the fact that every topic and every case study is just a two page spread in this book meant. Yeah, it forces you. So sometimes it's sad because to your point, you know, there are 10 incredible images and we can only fit three or maybe we can squeeze in a fourth somehow. But the squeezing in starts to really cut into to like the just attractiveness of the page and therefore the book. So there's always that trade off. But at the end of the day it was kind of nice to know like the word count has to be a little shorter and the images, you know, we can only choose this many. And you know, of these six quotes, we're just going to pick the two best ones. It allows you to feel like a lot of working on this book with Alina, it's like it's curation almost more than it is writing. And that's why, I mean this book compared to, I might have said this already, but compared to my first book about naming were just like light years apart. Right. I mean the naming book is like a brain dump of stuff that I already pretty much knew. And yeah, I had to maybe do some research or, or you know, things like that as I was working on it. But it's just kind of me talking into a book, whereas this one is me collecting information and case studies and talking to people who are experts in topics. And then sometimes they would write things and I would edit it. Sometimes I would write something and they would edit it. Sometimes, you know, Alina had already written it and we're really just kind of tweaking it so it has just such an incredibly different experience. And then obviously this book is so much more visual as well. So it was great having you as a partner on it because I know I do. I do a lot of design stuff. I work with a lot of designers, so I feel like I have a. An eye for it, but I don't really want to be on the hook for the decisions because, like, that's where I'm like, I just want a designer to say, this is how this should look, because I'm not confident in making some of those decisions. I. I can react maybe to two different options, but looking at a blank page is very daunting and just kind of having a sense of how it could be laid out, especially when it doesn't, because sometimes you're not fitting things super neatly into a template. It's sort of a new look for a page and it needs to feel similar enough to the rest of the book, even if it's breaking the grid somehow or it's sort of using it in a way that hasn't been used before. So, yeah, having you and Alina with her obvious, you know, expert eye on it, I, you know, couldn't have even thought about doing this without your help.

[C]

Yeah, well, and it's also the. The grid, not to take credit away from, from my role or Alina's role or any designer's role, but I think, you know, even I remember we got to a certain point in making progress on content. I think it was probably towards the end and we and Kathy did this as well. Like, flipped through the book, just page by page without even reading the content or, like looking at the images, just purely flipping through. And there were some places where we started breaking the grid a little bit, and in some places it worked, but some places I remember Kathy and I were like, where did that come from? Like, that feels really off from the last 50 pages. So the grid also really did help and will continue to help, just as those guardrails of where it could work to break it and maybe where it doesn't.

[A]

With something this long, you're constantly zooming in and zooming out. Zooming in to get this page just exactly right. But, yeah, zooming out. I can imagine kind of squinting and just flipping through really quickly and being like, oh, that page looks really, really weird compared to the others. Or it's just jam packed with information and it. It's too much.

[C]

Yeah. It's also. We are designing it on the computer and looking at it. I would say we both looked at it maybe 90% of the time on the computer. And then we get to a certain point of, like, once you print it, things do feel a little bit different. And even printing it at home or getting, you know, bigger pages printed, that feel more like the real thing and folding it, even that feels different than when we, like, got the copy and flipped through.

[A]

Right. And Alina was always great about having us print things. I mean, I think she just preferred to work on physical paper, maybe, but also it forced us to print it and look at it in that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is. You're right. It's totally different. And. And I mean, even again, seeing it actually bound and folded in a book, it's a little scary that. And this is probably true of most people working on books, by the time you're really seeing it in its final physical form, it's kind of too late to make changes. So you have to. Having Alina, who had done this five times already, having you, who had done it on the fifth edition and just sort of being able to project forward like, this is how this will feel when it's actually a book with a fold in the center of each of these two page spreads was really helpful. Partly it's just the grid is set up so that you're not going to accidentally put something in the middle of the fold. It's not. It's not about those kind of obvious errors, but it's just about having a sense of whether it's going to feel right when it's actually printed, and it certainly does. So success in that regard.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I have a question for you.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

What?

[C]

As the author and curator and researcher, all the things of this book, what was it like for you, working with. You've obviously worked with probably hundreds of designers before, but not necessarily on a book like this. What was it like for you? Was it what you expected? Do you have any feedback, live feedback for me?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm curious what, you know, we had our moments of, like, in the moment, back and forth, like, what we could be doing differently.

[B]

But I'm curious to hear.

[A]

We've kind of talked about a lot of, like, what makes it different. That was different for me, too. You can tell me. But I think. I imagine it was different working with me than it was with Alina for a number of reasons.

[C]

Now, I'm curious what you think those reasons are.

[A]

Well, I mean, well, she's a, you know, creative genius, but also like many creative geniuses, I think we've talked about already kind of like all over the place at once, you know? Yeah, I think, I don't know, maybe Alina's like this too. Like, it was hard. It's very hard for me to just write when I know that it's going to be laid out in a certain way. So that's why I was back to PowerPoint. I was like laying things out in a very crude way on Google Slides for you. Just because I needed to see the text is going to go here. And I can't even tell you exactly why I needed to see it. It just, it needed to have some tether to reality of like, this is what it'll look like. So that was really helpful that we got into that sort of rhythm of me doing a really crude layout that you had permission to completely change or in some cases, like, oh, that's pretty much what the page should look like. So just polishing what I had done, I don't know, that was really helpful.

[C]

And were you like going into this project, were you expecting, based on like knowing how you work best, that you were going to need that sort of visual to feel the copy come to life, or was that a surprise?

[A]

That's pretty consistent with other things I do. I probably annoy a lot of designers I work with because I'll do these sort of crude mock ups and then tell them to change it.

[C]

And I actually, I work really closely on most of my projects with the copywriter. And that's how I think that that's probably why she and I work well together is because typically, like I'll do a really high level wireframe if it's a web page as an example, and then she'll start working on the copy.

[B]

Because it helps bring it to life.

[C]

Because words do feel.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Different. Just typed out in Times New Roman in a document verse a headline and then a smaller sub headline. So it does. I mean, it makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. I've worked with a lot of great designers who will drop in headlines and stuff and sometimes it's like, oh, that's better than what I would have come up with. Let's just keep that. Yeah. Other times it's pretty much just Lorem Ipsum and. And you gotta, gotta change it. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what I expected diving into this book. And I can't remember now sort of what was a surprise and what wasn't. I knew it was pretty daunting. Just the size of it. Not only the size of it, but also the sort of responsibility of stewarding this masterpiece of design and Branding and not wanting to be the co author who came in and ruined it, but actually improved it or at least maintained the quality that people had come to expect of this book that's been around for 20 years. So there was that sort of dread aspect of it. I don't know that I thought as much about what the day to day would be like until we were kind of in it. But I very quickly realized that this was. I think I've maybe had a little bit of not overconfidence but like a thinking that, well, I wrote one book, so yes, this is bigger and different in a lot of ways. But. But really having written one book almost didn't connect to this at all because like I said, it's so different except for having just basic working practices of like, okay, in order to get this massive thing done by X date, we need to do this number of pages on average every week. And you were great working with me on that and having all kinds of things like spreadsheets about this page is going to change and we're going to move pages. So I mean overall it was like exactly the kind of project that I think you want in your career, which is really challenging but also really rewarding and fun at the same time. And of course sometimes it feels more challenging than fun. It's easy to look back on it and feel like it was a lot more fun than it was challenging. But you know, in the day to day I'm sure it wasn't all the time. But yeah, the, the rewards of like getting to know you and work with you, getting so close with Alina, having that opportunity, but also the dozens of people that we reached out to for case studies or insights, some of whom I knew, but this gave me an excuse to kind of contact them. Others I had never heard of. All of that was just so amazing for someone who spent about 20 years now working in the branding industry to really be able to kind of dive so deeply into it in such a different way. I didn't think this going in but you know, a really important part of my career I think I imagine always will be like a sort of a huge. I don't know, I'm glad, I'm glad I did it. It was more of a sort of deep experience than I expected it to be. I knew it was going to be a lot of work, but I didn't necessarily expect it to have the impact on it on me that it did. So yeah, it was great to get to work on it and maybe there'll be A seventh. Maybe there'll be more. I don't look forward to having to dive back into it. And I certainly don't think. I mean, this book is a year old as we're talking now, so it's got a long shelf life, literally. But, yeah, we'll see if it feels like a seventh is due or as Alina told me when I talked to her on the podcast years ago, it's not really up to us. It's partly up to the publisher. So we'll see if Wiley reaches out to us and says, hey, do you guys want to do a seventh? Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens.

[C]

Well, selfishly, fingers crossed, it is my favorite project to work on. And I'm, I'm. I. It's so cool, and I'm so happy to hear that it did have an impact on you. I obviously know that because I was, like, in it with you and a part of the process. But it is really cool now, you know, a year after to, like, know that all the, I'm sure, like, downtime and reflection that you've done as a part of working on it, you still feel that way.

[A]

Yeah. Just to wrap things up, a lot of designers have not had the incredible experience that you had to be sort of plucked out of undergrad by a design and branding guru like Alina and, you know, invited to work on something like this with her. So is there anything, I don't know, a story or something that you. A lesson learned or even just a. Something that Alina said? You know, she had her catchphrases, just anything that you would like to share with anyone listening that again, didn't have that opportunity that maybe you can kind of pass on to them.

[B]

Yeah, I.

[C]

There are so many. I never. It's such a. A big question with so many little and big answers. So I'm going to try not to ramble on, to try and keep it really concise. I think that because there are so many things that I learned from her, and I think, like, professionally, but also personally, and there's so much overlap sort of in between. I think one thing that a lot of things sort of fall under is she made people believe in things without. Without really an agenda, without. Without trying, you know, things like she made you just. People believe in the things that she was passionate about. She made you believe in just the idea of being passionate about things.

[A]

Anything about whatever you wanted.

[C]

Yeah. Anything from your career to ice cream to literally everything in between. But something that I think about often are sort of, like, all the things in my life, the people that I work with, the organizations that I work with, the. My friends, my family, all the little knickknacks on my desk, like where I want to go on vacation, just all of the things that sort of make up your life. And I often think about, like, her. Her perspective and sort of, like that contagious feeling that she created whenever she was around you of. Of, like, being really passionate and not just being passionate, but, like, wanting to be passionate about things.

[A]

And that's really interesting because it's hard to just make yourself passionate if you don't feel like it. But. But yeah, just. Yeah, putting in the effort to sort of try. Maybe. Maybe you'll surprise yourself.

[C]

Yeah. And, yeah, she just. She really made you believe in people and things in your space. And again, ice cream.

[B]

She loved ice cream.

[C]

Just. She just made you believe. And so Bubbles, apparently, yeah, she's a huge bubble fan. So I think just the. The message there is to not just for yourself, believe in things and again, like, want to and be excited to, but also to just like, bring that contagious energy to other people too, because I think it is. Is contagious and can be contagious.

[A]

So, yeah, she was passionate about the things she did and also just fun. And so, yeah, yeah, we were talking earlier, before we started recording, about how it sort of feels like, I mean, she was a leader of people. She led this massive project. She led, you know, design projects and branding projects, but she didn't. It didn't feel like she was trying to be a leader, as in, like, she read books about how to be a great leader or anything. It was just that she loved what she was doing and she was fun to be around, and you just kind of wanted to be involved in what she was doing, and she got you excited about things. And I don't know how replicable that is. Like, that was her personality, and it was just sort of a gift. But certainly, yeah, there were things that I learned from her that I think you can. Yeah, you can try to do those things and maybe make. Make things a little more interesting, a little more fun, get people a little more excited about whatever it is that you're working on. All right, well, why don't we wrap it up there? Thank you so much for joining me on how brands are built and talking about your career, talking about the book, talking about Alina. It's been so much fun, and I know we'll be talking again soon and maybe working on other projects together soon, which will. So we'll announce when ready. But yeah, thanks for thanks for being here, Robin.

[C]

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And you already know this, but I adore working with you and I'm so grateful to Alina for choosing you and bringing us together.

[A]

Yeah, thanks to Alina for introducing us. And there will be much more collaboration beyond Designing Brain Identity 6th Edition. So looking forward to it. Talk to you soon.

[C]

Thank you. Bye.

[A]

Thanks for listening to How Brands Are Built. If you liked the episode, please leave a rating and review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about Robin and her work, visit robingaufman.com to learn more about Designing Brand Identity, that book that we worked on together, you can visit DBI Book. That's DBI as in designing brand identity. Book.com that's a site that Robin built. Or you can find the book on Amazon or wherever you buy books. How Brands Are Built is a production of Heirloom Agency, Inc. Our theme music is by Esha Erskine Project. I'm Rob Meyerson and I'll talk to you next time.