Return to Oz

Summary

How Did This Get Made? — Return to Oz

Hosts: Paul Scheer, June Diane Raphael, Jason Mantzoukas
Episode Date: January 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Return to Oz (1985), a dark and unsettling sequel to The Wizard of Oz produced by Disney. Paul, June, and Jason dissect the film’s bizarre tone, narrative choices, and unsettling imagery, exploring why it traumatized a generation of young viewers and remains one of the most debated children’s movies ever made. The conversation spans analysis, personal reactions, memorable moments, and a critical look at the film's place in pop culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Trauma of "Return to Oz"

• Initial Reactions

  • Jason: "Traumatized." (02:44)
  • Paul: "Yes, truly traumatized." (02:45)
  • The film is collectively agreed to be more horror than children’s fantasy, setting it apart from the joyful 1939 original.

• Comparing to The Wizard of Oz:

  • June reflects on the importance of the original:
    “The Wizard of Oz is very important to me, and it’s such a perfect movie that this Return to Oz… is really distressing to me.” (05:10)
  • Jason observes the tonal whiplash: “This to me felt like Wizard of Oz meets The Dark Crystal.” (05:43)

Faithful Adaptation or Unforgivable Detour?

• Paul provides background on Disney’s confusion in the 1980s and its string of “darker” fantasy films (The Black Hole, Condorman, Escape from Witch Mountain).
• June on source material:
  “This is a faithful adaptation … but it’s so grim … an example of why it is important sometimes to not at all be faithful to the original.” (14:40)
• Jason: Suggests a hypothetical adaptation route, wishing they’d done a faithful dark Wizard of Oz first, then adapted this sequel (17:08).

The Bleak, Psychologically Disturbing Tone

• The film’s opening (Dorothy is almost given electroshock therapy):
  “She’s also institutionalized and on the verge of getting 1930s electroshock treatment. That … was the part of the movie…” (07:05 - Jason)
• Paul points out the narrative disconnect: “This is a sequel to a movie we’ve not seen.” (10:43)
• June: “This isn’t a sequel to The Wizard of Oz as far as I’m concerned. This is sort of another telling of the book.” (08:15)

Disturbing Imagery & Characters

• Memorable scenes:
  • Dorothy brushing a jack-o-lantern’s nonexistent hair: “This is the scariest thing I’ve ever seen in my life.” (11:49 - Paul)
  • Dr. Worley giving the electroshock device a face and naming its parts as facial features:
    Paul (12:10): “Oh, this electrical marvel will make it possible for you to sleep again.” Jason (12:49): "Here's this machine that's gonna rob you of who you are... such insidious malice to it."
• The “Hallway of Heads” with Princess Mombi cited as a highlight:
  "Scary, believable... really incredible." (16:09 - June)
• Pumpkin Jack calling Dorothy “Mom,” and Dorothy going along with it:
  “Really, really distressing. And then even worse, she started responding to it.” (18:41 - June)

The Bizarre Logic, Subpar Companions, and Mechanical Themes

• June laments: “Not a single one of them has a human face... which felt very pointed.” (29:14)
• Jason calls Dorothy’s new companions “the B team… like Expendables 7.” (26:59)
• Discussion on mechanical characters (TikTok the robot):
  “A potbelly robot is an odd choice. It doesn’t seem functional to give your robot girth.” (03:44 - Paul)
• They joke about Jason’s “TikTok man” character from John Wick 3 possibly being related.

Existential Overtones & Bleak World-Building

• Everyone, including Dorothy and her companions, is experiencing an existential crisis (30:40).
• June: “All in, like, deep psychic distress. And it’s very uncomfortable to watch.” (30:49)

The Weakness of the "Sequel" Device

• They argue the film would be better enjoyed if it weren’t attached to The Wizard of Oz at all: "It has more in common with Pan’s Labyrinth than it does the Wizard of Oz." (20:59 - Jason) "Would you enjoy a movie in which a little girl descends into a… Wonderland type of story that’s dark and scary?” (37:07 - Jason)

The Chicken as an Agent of Chaos

• The chicken Bellina, who is surprisingly crucial, ultimately kills the Gnome King by laying an egg in his mouth—eggs being his fatal weakness.
  • “Does she know that's poison?...Is that how you shit an egg?” (46:51 - June)
  • Jason’s childhood severe egg allergy draws personal parallels. (47:15)

Thematic and Visual Contrasts

• The hosts bemoan the lack of color, beauty, and clarity in Dorothy’s journey;
• June on Dorothy’s wardrobe: “Her bows were too big. That dress, I can’t even track… was so sort of shapeless and strange.” (39:25–40:28)

The Wheelers

• All are unsettled by the design and movement of the Wheelers:
  • “I thought the design and the execution of those Wheelers was cool as hell.” (57:02 - Jason)
  • “These guys looked like... body horror... this felt like David Cronenberg’s Return to Oz.” (57:54 - Jason)
• June: “They were scarier because they were human, and they were chaotic in a way that the monkeys seemed ruled by something.” (57:21)

The Movie’s Target Audience & Enduring Legacy

• 80% of over 5,000 Amazon reviews are five stars, shocking the hosts (61:26).
• They acknowledge that many children now-adults maintain a deep nostalgic connection, possibly BECAUSE the film disturbed them.
  • “Sometimes when you get traumatized by a movie very young, it can seep in… like a rite of passage.” (60:05 - Paul)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• June, on adaptation vs. faithfulness (14:40):
  “This is an example of why it is important sometimes to not at all be faithful to the original source material.”
• Paul, on Dorothy’s drab home life (08:15):
  “Why would she ever want to go back? ... Your parents are putting you in an institution...”
• Jason, summing up Dorothy (19:49):
  “She feels much older… She looks like an actual 10 year old from that era… She’s been hungry before. She’s gone to bed hungry many, many nights.”
• Jason, existential crisis summation (30:40):
  “Everybody in the movie, with the exception, actually, no, including Dorothy, are having an existential crisis.”
• June, on the Wheelers (57:21):
  “They were scarier because they were human, and they were chaotic in a way that the monkeys seemed ruled by something… completely out of control.”
• Paul, on recommending the film (64:44):
  “Would you recommend it? I kind of … say yes. Because it’s so odd. It’s so weird. It’s worth a watch.”

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Segment Timestamps

• [02:44] – Traumatizing impact of Return to Oz
• [05:10-08:15] – Comparing to The Wizard of Oz; distress over adaptation choices
• [07:05] – Disturbing opening: Dorothy is institutionalized
• [11:47] – The Jack Pumpkin Head horror scene
• [14:40] – Discussion on adaptation faithfulness
• [16:09] – Hallway of Heads scene
• [17:08-18:41] – Dorothy’s companions and emotional detachment
• [26:59-29:14] – Opinions on the new Oz companions as “the B team”
• [46:27] – Defeating the Gnome King with a chicken egg
• [57:02-58:04] – Wheelers as unnerving, body horror villains
• [61:26] – Amazon reviews: 80% five stars
• [64:44] – Would you recommend? Roundtable wrap-up

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Final Thoughts & Recommendations

• Paul: Odd and worth a watch for sheer weirdness, but not for those seeking narrative clarity or continuity with the original. (64:44)
• Jason: Enjoyable when decoupled from The Wizard of Oz, with impressive practical effects, but confusing as a sequel.
• June: No overlap between fans of the original film and this; likely beloved by those attached to the Oz books or who saw it repeatedly as children (66:17).
• They agree its dark, bizarre, and (despite its flaws) visually interesting—an enduring curiosity that horrified a generation.

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For Listeners

If you’re a Wizard of Oz purist, proceed with caution. If you love offbeat ‘80s fantasy, inventive puppetry, or want to show your kids a “good, scary movie”—or just want to relive that childhood trauma—you might find Return to Oz compelling viewing. Just don’t expect any closure or joy.

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Notable Callback:
Jason, on fans: “I was gonna say I’m not curious to hear from fans, and I don’t want to hear from fans, so… you can cut that straight out of the podcast.” (67:36)

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How Did This Get Made? is available Fridays wherever you listen to podcasts.

Transcript

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[Jason Mantzoukas]

Mediocrity of subpar. Perhaps we'll find the answer to the question, how did this get made?

[Paul Scheer]

Hello, people of Earth, and welcome to how did this Get Made? I am your host, Paul Scheer, and today we are talking about a little known sequel to the wizard of Oz. Yes, this was a big budget film made by Disney back in 1985. The IMDb logline says Dorothy, saved from a psychiatric experiment by a mysterious girl, is somehow called back to Oz A when a vain witch and a gnome king destroy everything that makes the magical land beautiful. And wow. Here to discuss it all are my two co hosts. Please welcome Jason Mantzoukas and June Diane Rayfield. How are you both?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Traumatized.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, truly traumatized.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I found this to be. Wait, have you guys seen this movie?

[June Diane Raphael]

No.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, okay, okay. Okay, I didn't know if this was a popular movie for, like, a younger generation.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I am very familiar with TikTok. Not the app, but the robot, because that robot has been in a lot of, like, whenever they bring around, like, Star wars stuff, like, TikTok the robot is out in the.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, interesting. Tik Tok the robot also looks exactly like. And I'm sure there's a reason for this. The robot in Gendy Tartakovsky's Unicorn Warriors Eternal has a TikTok robot character in it. That's the same.

[June Diane Raphael]

See, I just thought he looked like Monopoly Man.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, that too.

[June Diane Raphael]

That too.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Man. Like a. What a pervasive image that is throughout so many. Like the. The upturned mustache, the monocle, all of that.

[Paul Scheer]

A potbelly robot is an odd choice. It doesn't seem functional in any way to give your robot girth.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, have you seen. And I don't know if either of you guys do this, because sometimes I will when we movie, especially if it's old. I will check in on where they are now. And Tik Tok the robot is definitely on oic. He is so skinny.

[Paul Scheer]

Good, good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's so skinny right now, it's crazy. He looks like C3PO.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, now the mustache looks too big on him. It looks way too big.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So, okay, so you guys have not seen this, but was this. And Paul, maybe this is in your research. So forgive me. Was this a popular movie? Like, what did this. Okay, okay, okay.

[Paul Scheer]

This isn't a moment, right? Just to set the stage. Disney's like, oh, what do we do? Right? And they don't know which direction to go in because they kind of lost their younger audiences. And this is the moment where they go, oh, okay, we'll do Star wars. And they make the Black Hole. And then they go, that didn't work. Oh, we'll make James Bond. They make this movie called Condor Man. Then they make Escape from Witch Mountain, which is great.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And Scary Movie I loved. Yeah, awesome.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think this is kind of in that same vein of, like, we're not the Disney that. You know, we're the this Disney.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's what's interesting, though. I just finished it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Same.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

I don't feel right. No, I feel there's such. The wizard of Oz is very important to me, and it's such a perfect movie that this return to Oz and what they did here is really distressing to me because I'm like, let's say you are Disney and you're gonna go back into the property of wizard of Oz and the books and all of it. Why would you choose to do this?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah, I agree.

[June Diane Raphael]

Why? This is not a children's movie.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's not. Well, you know what it is though? It is a. It's a children's movie. When you think about maybe some of the other children's movies that are around at this time, this to me felt like wizard of Oz meets the Dark Crystal.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, it felt like it was in a darker, scarier world, you know, like. And I don't know if this is in the books and they're just adapting.

[Paul Scheer]

The book, but this is two different books. They've kind of adapted and put together as one. So it is. And I will say that the bomb estate is. Says this is my Oz.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, I understand that. And I've heard that before. That's, I think, the one thing I had heard about Return to Oz, which is that like, it is close to the source material in a way. That wizard of Oz is not her in terms of her age and also the darkness of it. Here's what I just want in the reality of it. Like, that's. This is my main. This is my main issue is that of course, in the wizard of Oz, she wakes up at the end, right in this movie. And Oz was a dream. And in this movie, Oz is not a dream.

[Paul Scheer]

No, oddly, the house did fly away. It is in Oz. But yet she also is a child that is going through, at least through her parents eyes, a psychotic break. She's having like tornado PTSD.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She's also institutionalized and on the verge of getting 1930s electroshock treatment. That, that was, that was the part of the movie that the movie opens. It's so, you know, and it parallels wizard of Oz really well in the sense that like the wizard of Oz starts off black and white and then once you get to Oz, it's color. In this version of it though, it's all in color, but the, the initial scenes are fully desaturated and it looks like they're in like Days of Heaven.

[Paul Scheer]

I was gonna say that it is in color, but it somehow seems like it has less color than black and white. Like it, it is depressing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It looks like Dust bowl era. Grapes of Wrath.

[Paul Scheer]

Of Wrath, yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's like, I was like, we're so smart. Grapes of Raft.

[Paul Scheer]

We love it when, when you see the home life of Dorothy. Not to skip to the end, but why would she ever want to go back? The original Dorothy, I get why she wants to go like this. Your parents are putting you in an institution, like a scary institution where they're.

[June Diane Raphael]

Strapping you down to a bed thing. But oh my gosh, this is why it's so. The emotional. There's no emotional connective tissue between the two films. I mean, this isn't a sequel to the wizard of Oz as far as I'm concerned. This is sort of another telling of the book.

[Paul Scheer]

This is more of a sequel to Hereditary than it is wizard of Oz.

[June Diane Raphael]

But like. But I guess that's why I'm just so confused because to. In the beginning of this movie, Oz is real. That wasn't a dream to her. She didn't real. But more than that, I mean, that's distressing. But all of the deeply important lessons that she learned that she taught herself through that dream about Oz, about, you know, what's important, what's important in life, about. About knowing what you already have and trusting it, that it's going to come from you. About imagination, about all these things are completely, like, thrown away.

[Paul Scheer]

She seems duller.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, like significantly younger.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And. And here. Here's Which I'm okay with because that she is a younger. I like that a younger person is being put in this kind of incredibly fantastical world. But what is so difficult to reconcile as I'm watching this is that the events of the wizard of Oz have already happened to this person, to this child. And that doesn't feel like what's happened. This feels like a prequel in many ways, and it is a undeniable sequel. And so what's. What I kept having a real trouble figuring out is she's already been through all this. Now, obviously Oz is so different and, you know, everything has changed.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But like, it is so. It is so hard to keep track of. It's so clear in the initial movie who wants what, who needs what and what the journey is. It's a real. It's a real Fellowship of the Ring, Lord of the Rings. Like we're on an adventure. These. It's a found family. These are my people. Each of us has these components and we're going to move forward in this movie. I didn't know who wanted what. I didn't know what role they were supposed to be playing. I didn't understand the what one step further.

[Paul Scheer]

This is a sequel to a movie that we've not seen. Right. Because at one point she's flying over a place and she's. Oh, well, this is the desert land. I remember I saw this when we were. When we were cut. I'm like, no, no, we don't know this.

[June Diane Raphael]

And when they say your shoes, your ruby red slippers, when the king of gnomes or whatever he is says your ruby red slippers fell off when you were flying back to you. Did they?

[Paul Scheer]

Let's give me. Give me a little like. Give me a. Like a. Like a. Like, not a prequel, but give me like a last time on, like.

[June Diane Raphael]

Listen. I felt like that this entire thing, I was like, we are all being institutionalized. We are all. Our reality is being questioned just like hers. And I don't know what the answer is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's a very. It's. Go ahead, Paul.

[Paul Scheer]

I was. Can I tell you the most disturbing moment? And it. For me, it's right here in this. This part. And tell me if this hit you in the wrong way, that it could hit me. Her brushing the hair of a jack o' lantern that has no hair. But like, her in that. That hospital room, just pretend brushing.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's a horror.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I was like, you know what?

[Paul Scheer]

This is the scariest thing I've ever.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Seen in my life. So for me, in that same section, what I found absolutely bone chilling was that here is this doctor who is going to give her electroshock treatment. And the way he describes it is to make the machine have a face.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, this electrical marvel will make it possible for you to sleep again.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And it will also get rid of.

[Paul Scheer]

All those bad waking dreams that you've been telling me about. Now, this fellow here has a face. You see it? Here are his eyes. And this must be his nose.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And this must be his mouth.

[Paul Scheer]

What's this, Dorothy? Why, it's his tongue.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Here's this machine that's gonna rob you of who you are. That's gonna give you this barbaric treatment. And it. And here's its eyes and here's its nose. And he's making it this cute. He's personifying it in a way that is so. That has such insidious malice to it. It's like, trust this machine that's going to destroy you.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And she sees a face in it. And by the way, I mean, I guess that's supposed to be TikTok or another question for you both. Is this a dream? It feels like it has elements of a dream, and then elements that it's not. Because at the end it could have been a dream.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is.

[Paul Scheer]

So she better keep her fucking mouth shut, though, when she comes back to this one.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's the lesson, though, Paul. That is the lesson of the movie.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Keep it to you keep secrets, keep.

[June Diane Raphael]

Your dreams and your imagination and your thoughts private.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, when it's, like. When it is. Whatever, 1930, whatever, you know, like, kids weren't. Nobody wanted to hear from these.

[June Diane Raphael]

Dang. No, that's. That's the moral of the story.

[Paul Scheer]

But this is a movie made in 1985 as a children's film. Like, it's like. Like, it does feel like. I mean, just. I want to put it out there that this is directed by Walter Murch, who wrote this as well, and Walter Murch, if you don't know, one of the legendary editors of our time. I mean, just like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like a true. Responsible for so many of the movies.

[Paul Scheer]

Apocalypse now, the Conversation, the English Patient, like the Godfather, like, he's, like, done it all, you know, so, like, he is. Wrote a book on editing, like, definitely gets it. And I wouldn't say the movie is poorly edited. It just is like, it doesn't.

[June Diane Raphael]

This is a faithful adaptation. I think this is a faithful adaptation of whatever they were adapting. Those two books put together. The darkness of it, the childhood trauma that her age. I think this is all. Clearly, it's faithful. There's no songs. That Lizard is not written as a musical. There's no joy. There's no joy. It is just a very, very dark tale about industrialization, I guess. But it. It's so grim. But I do think it's. It is exactly what those books are now. It will say, though, this is an example of why it is important sometimes to not at all be faithful to the original source material.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To really, like, you know, June, I.

[Paul Scheer]

Just want to give you one little tip here that he wasn't just faithful to Frank L. Bohm's work. Walter Murch says that he used a lot of inspiration from. From a book called Wisconsin Death Trip, a 1973 historical nonfiction book about, like, diphtheria in. In Black river falls between 1885 and 1910. What the.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So, I mean, I will say there's. This is a movie that has a lot of craft. You know what I mean? There is a lot going into this. It is well made. It's.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's not like, I have to say, the Hallway of Heads or whatever that was called.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The Detachable Heads.

[June Diane Raphael]

The Detachable Heads, I thought was amazing.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I thought so many.

[June Diane Raphael]

Scary, believable. And once you realize, like, what's going on with those heads and what she's doing and Princess, I thought it was really, really incredible.

[Paul Scheer]

Heads that different. I mean, later in the movie, we find out that the Gnome King had gave her a bunch of heads so she would do his bidding. And I was like, it didn't seem like she was really exploring how many different faces she could possibly have. A lot of those heads seemed very like, you know, let's, let's get a shaved head. Let's get a cool, you know, like, let me. Give me a couple. Give me a guy's head.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We want a punk rock head. Yeah, with a mohawk. I felt like what's so true is I believe. Do I believe this? Maybe not. What I was going to say is this is clearly a sequel to a book. The book was not what the wizard of Oz was.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what I mean? Like, so what's curious to me is that they a boy do I wish they had started with in 1985. What if we did a faithful to the book adaptation, the wizard of Oz, no songs, none of that stuff. We're just gonna do that in hopes of it working and them getting to then do this book to continue the world of the way that. And, and forgive me, this is not exactly a one to one, but the Arnold Schwarzenegger Running man is barely an adaptation of the Stephen King story versus Edgar Wright's which is a much more faithful adaptation. And the movies are quite different as a result, in a way that is totally.

[June Diane Raphael]

Give us the darker version of Wizard.

[Paul Scheer]

That's what I'm saying. Give us, give us. Yes, an overture. Just even give us a 10 minute thing like, okay, we got it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But.

[Paul Scheer]

But what we're even seeing, because we're supposed to feel connection. When she meets the scarecrow, I'm like, that's not my scarecrow. That scarecrow.

[June Diane Raphael]

My scarecrow.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, I'm also feeling like, well, my scarecrow is now my Pumpkin Jack, which, by the way, Tim Burton has admitted he has used inspiration for Jack Skellington.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, you got, I mean, by.

[June Diane Raphael]

The way, one of the most chilling moments to me, my scariest moment was when Pumpkin Jack started calling her Mom Dorothy.

[Paul Scheer]

May I call you Mom?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Even if it isn't so.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, thank you.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, no.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Throughout.

[June Diane Raphael]

Really, really distressing. And then even worse, she started responding to it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I couldn't deal with it because. Because she is. I'm going to say, oh, this is Farouza Balk in this performance. And it is young, we'll say, an incredible. I mean, she's got to be like nine years old. How old is she? Ten years old?

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. Yeah, she's very, very young child when.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She'S doing, I think this is a fantastic performance because in every single scene, but a handful. She is acting alone against inanimate objects. There is, there's, it's a pile of rocks. It's a pile. It's like she's doing a great job in service of scenes where she has no scene partners. It's very weird.

[June Diane Raphael]

I do agree that she's great and the portrayal of Dorothy Gale, I mean Judy Garland's performance is one of the, you know, one of the best performances ever on film. But it's so childlike and it's so innocent and beautiful and joyful and.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You mean Judy Garlands?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, yes. So buoyant and so I think vulnerable too. I think it's so beautiful and alive. Um, but there's something about Dorothy Gale and the return to Oz that feels even though she's significantly younger playing an 8 year old or a 9 year old, she feels much older. Oh, she feels like her. Yeah. I mean and Judy Garland's playing like a 12, 13 year old.

[Paul Scheer]

I have nothing to say about the performance. It's. She, she is, she looks like she got the treatment, the shock treatment. Like she does not look happy. She doesn't like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, you know what she looks like? She looks like an act 10 year old from that era. Like Judy Garland skipping around with baskets and toto and having fun and it, that's not her life in like dust bowl in dust bowl era. Like, like this little girl is.

[June Diane Raphael]

She's been hungry before. She's gone to bed hungry many, many nights.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And the movie is done a disservice by purporting to be a Wizard of Oz sequel. Only because.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, don't call it that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Call it anything else and we would have enjoyed it looked it has more in common with Pan's Labyrinth than it does, you know, than it does the wizard of Oz.

[Paul Scheer]

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[Jason Mantzoukas]

Hey.

[Paul Scheer]

Guess what? Valentine's Day is just around the corner and you need to know the top secret that wins every year. You know what it is 1-800-flowers.com and I gotta tell you, they rule. They rule. I have gone to many a different florist but I'll tell you when these 1-800-Flowers come, they are the best looking flowers. They have gotten me out of the of some trouble and they have gotten me a lot of brownie points for thinking ahead of time. So I'm passing my knowledge to you. I don't care that they're a sponsor. This is true. 1-800-FLowers has saved my ass and let 1-800-FLowers.com save yours. Now here it is. What they're going to be doing with their roses is they're getting them from these high altitude farms that produce bigger blooms, richer colors and flowers that last. This year they're making it even better with an exclusive double bloom offer. That means you buy one dozen roses, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen or for free. Twice the impact without breaking the bank. So make this Valentine's one. She'll remember to get your double blooms offer. Buy one dozen, get two dozen roses free. Go to 1-800-flowers.com bonkers. That's 1-800-flowers.Com bonkers to double your roses for free. Now here's what I will say just and I don't like to always do this in this show because it's not always about this, but I do want to call this out Firuza Balk, who's in, you would say like 98% of the film. Right. She was not permitted to work more than three and a half hours each day and she could only work between 9 and 4:30. And that had to include breaks and education in there. So to think about the production of this movie on top of that. And you're right, she's in scene. All of it. She's in all of it. It's like, what are they getting? Like, what are we, what are we shooting at?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And how long did it take? And you know, like. And it's not like, oh well, when she is, when we, when we lose her for the day early, at least we can shoot, you know, like this happens on Percy Jackson because there's all this. So many of the kids are young, young kids.

[June Diane Raphael]

And you also become a pumpkin.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes, I am a pumpkin headed man on that. Yeah. But all the kids, when they have to leave, we basically then turn around and shoot all the adults coverage. The kids are gone. But there are no adults in this. There are no other people in this. They're not like, oh, okay, now that Darth the chicken in here has to go. We're going to just shoot the chicken.

[June Diane Raphael]

That chicken, by the way, the worst, the worst.

[Paul Scheer]

And the. You go from. To a chicken, come on.

[June Diane Raphael]

Really upset me.

[Paul Scheer]

Does she wipe her eye with that chicken when she's crying? At one point I felt like at one point she tears up and she lifts the chicken and I'm like, you can't wipe your eye with a chicken.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Guys, a question about the wizard of Oz. And I'm going to admit something here that is perhaps an insane statement. I haven't watched the wizard of Oz since I was a kid.

[Paul Scheer]

Sure.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is not a movie that I rewatch or that I have any, any real like affinity for other than when it was on TV as a kid. I watched it and I watched it a handful of times. I don't remember. Toto didn't talk, did he?

[Paul Scheer]

No, no.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, okay. Because the minute. Because she has a chicken at home and then when she's in Oz with the chicken, the chicken talks.

[Paul Scheer]

Some place for a chicken. Cool.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

When did you learn to talk anyway? I thought hens could only cluck and cackle. Strange, ain't it?

[Paul Scheer]

How's my grammar?

[June Diane Raphael]

If we were in the land of.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oz, your talking wouldn't be strange at all.

[Paul Scheer]

And she's like, oh, we must be in Oz because now you can talk.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But I. But then I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a Minute. Did Toto talk when they went to Oz And. Okay, good. Thank God.

[Paul Scheer]

Also.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, thank God. But. But best. Paul said that the downgrade. The fucking downgrade.

[Paul Scheer]

You. The chick.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is a low. I mean, can you imagine being there for the first one and getting the lion, the. The toe. You've got Toto, you've got the. The Tin Man. You've got all these great characters and the B team that shows up in this movie. I was like, oh, this is like Expendable seven. Like, this is like, who. I wonder if. If my character From John Wick 3, the TikTok man, is in any way related.

[Paul Scheer]

I feel like they have to be.

[June Diane Raphael]

Talk about TikTok, because I do think there is something going on about, like, machinery and. But I couldn't. I don't have. I don't. I didn't really, like, understand it. Like, I know that they'll beware of the wheelers and the wheels and oh, yeah, the industrial. I like them as taking over. Yeah, me too. But visual. There was Tik Tok.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

And I was like, steam Punky. He's. Yeah, but he's not the Tin Man.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Nope.

[June Diane Raphael]

You know, who's worried about not feeling. Who's worried about only being sort of, you know, metal and scraps and not being human? But that's not. I couldn't understand, like, what is TikTok?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, to me, I think that TikTok is like, chill the out. You can't be excited. Like, TikTok is that. That machine. Right. So I think it's about controlling her emotions. But then at the end, he kind of gets emotions, I guess. Right. Like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Or I think it's yes. Yes to what we're talking about. But the movie is not doing us any favors to foreground it and say, this is the search that this. That this character is on. Or this is the right. You know. You know, in a way that I found just confounding.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, in this sit, like, we are the TikTok Pumpkin man. And the couch, to be honest, have all of the same emotional, like, interior. I just. I couldn't. And what's such a bummer about that? Is her friends on the yellow brick road. And how beautiful, rich, important those performances. My God, like, to be saddled with. Not a single one of them has a human face.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, no.

[June Diane Raphael]

Which felt very pointed. I didn't know if it was like, oh, those characters are so iconic. Like, they're so physical and beautiful from wizard of Oz that we're not even gonna try.

[Paul Scheer]

No, they. They Went to, like, a cartoon. Like, I feel like, again, it's the. If you look at the images on the wizard of Oz books, they are. They look similar to that. Like, the way the Tin Man. I was like, oh, this doesn't even feel right here. I do want to bring up one.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What we're up against is the decision to make the wizard of Oz so much different from the books means that by. By participating in any future storytelling based on the books, it almost is unrecognizable to the movie wizard of Oz.

[Paul Scheer]

And I. And I'll tell you one thing. I saw the original wizard of Oz recently, and the Scarecrow, not that handsy with Dorothy originally, when he first wakes up, he's like, ooh. I'm like. He's like, what's going on here? I'll tell you this much.

[June Diane Raphael]

But it's also the same exact beat, like when she's stuffing the scarecrow with his hay and when she's doing the exact same thing with Jack the Pumpkin.

[Paul Scheer]

In this, the character that bums me out is Gump the animal who's having this crisis of conscious being. Like, was I alive before this? I remember a. Before being a mounted animal. I'm like, ooh, what? What is that? Like?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, everybody in the movie, with the exception actually, no, including Dorothy, are having existential crisis.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

All in, like, deep psychic distress. And it's. It's very uncomfortable to watch.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. Oh, God. There's something about the changes to the Wizard. My guess is. Well, no, books are. Tell me again, 1939 for the movie. Film is 39. And what were the books?

[Paul Scheer]

The books. 1890 is where. 1890. Okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So there's something about, to me, 1939, like, the movie being like a post Depression era movie. So to make it as bleak as what these books must have been, this is a bleak movie. You know what I mean? This is not a hopeful, joyful movie.

[June Diane Raphael]

In the middle, and it ends in a pretty bleak manner.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So I can see them in the 30s being like, okay, we have just come out of one of the most awful periods of time. Let's. Yes, this source material, but let's plus it up with some song.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, let's make it fun. Let's make it.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's why people responded to it. Absolutely not.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, let's bum, people. It's like, I don't see a better version. It's like, I don't want to be in Oz. I don't want to be in Kansas. I don't want to be here. I kind of want to go back to that machine, erase it all. I'll be happier. I. Let me just. And the girl who's living in mirrors, I'm like, I don't need any of this.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, at the beginning. And I was like, oh, thank God she has a friend. And I was like, oh, no.

[Paul Scheer]

Nope. Nope.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, this. I think the thing that's also just so disappointing about this one is her journey in the wizard of Oz is so clear and so relatable that. That idea that. That there's someone's coming to save us, that if we could just get. If we could just get this one thing, if we could just figure this out, if we could just get this one job or whatever, that. That. That our lives will be unlocked and things will be so much easier and that someone outside of ourselves is going to make that happen. The moment in the wizard of Oz when it reveals that there's just no nothing, you know, tiny man behind the curtain is so incredibly powerful.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

For her emotional journey and in this movie, her. Her journey, I think, is to prove. First starts off to prove Oz is real, but then to restore it. But for what?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I guess, yeah, that's it. Like, for what reason? How does that. Like, how is that paying off anything that the movie began with, like where, like any of the established wants or anything that the movie begins telling us is. Is. Is not even part of the resolution or, or where. Where. Or her pursuit of a resolution. You know, she is so much more of a passive character inside of this movie. The. The movie is happening to her. Whereas in the wizard of Oz, Dorothy is inexplicably driving them forward towards the Emerald City. And in this one, she is just reactive. It is just like, oh, no. Oh, look at that. Oh, look at that. You know what?

[Paul Scheer]

It actually feels like, in a way, it's like she's remembering the wizard of Oz post a traumatic event, like. Like, post her mind. Right. Because it's like she's not really on a journey here. She's not really, like, I guess she is trying to find the Scarecrow, but she's really just kind of like looking at what happened before. Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, she's also not trying to. Because there's the. You could easily say, like, oh, she's back. Nobody believes her. Yeah, she's older. She's like, oh, I need to be able to for my own sake, like.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I need to see it for myself.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I need to prove to myself that this is real, if not to the people around me. So as. So as to not be perceived of as needing electroshock treatment, you know?

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, but of course that's confusing. As it all falls apart. When would we like confront the fact that it wasn't real?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Now I do wanna say one thing. I want, like, when our son talked a lot about Pokemon, we did get him electroshock therapy. Cause he just was talking about this nonsense. We didn't understand it and it was like. And we just like, get it out. We have to get it out. And that, you know, that's fine to do, but I mean, but besides that, I think back then it's Barbara. I mean, that's the thing, right? It's like she only is showing imagination. She's not even depressed about being away from us.

[June Diane Raphael]

She's excited to tell people, Paul, because she's staying up so late and can't sleep. She's not able to wake up early and tend to the farm.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, I mean, that's.

[June Diane Raphael]

That is how the movie starts off. She's not. That's why Aunt M takes her.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She's gotta work.

[June Diane Raphael]

She's gotta work.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She's got to work, otherwise she's going to get left at the asylum a thousand percent.

[June Diane Raphael]

You can actually, in the world of Oz, be mentally insane as long as you wake up early and can help Aunt M out with the farm.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Big time.

[Paul Scheer]

Whoa, big time.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. No, I think that's it. And again, this exists in a time when children worked. When children. There are no child labor laws. There are. There is no. You get to be a teenager and go to college kid. That kid is going to work that farm now, you know, at whatever 10 years old.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's why you have kids.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That. That is why you have kids. And that's why you have a lot of them, because you got a lot of fun to cover and some of them aren't gonna make it.

[Paul Scheer]

And she's doing a damn bad job because you know what? She. By the way, the mom is threatening Bellina, right? She's like, if you don't shit another egg, like, you're. We're gonna eat you. I mean, that's the other thing too. So she's like, I would love it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

If she said, if you don't shit.

[Paul Scheer]

Another egg, I mean, that's. I mean, basically that is like what she's worried about. His mom's like, we're gonna eat your pet. The only thing that you have here, your only connection to life, we're gonna eat that thing. And she's a desperately.

[June Diane Raphael]

Look, Toto.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, Toto's still rocking around.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, I guess.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, Toto's still rocking around. But, boy, if I'm Toto, I'm like, come on. Hey, guys, can I get some action? Like, how come she gets to go back? And I don't like it. The movie from Toto's point of view is like, hey, I'd like to go back to Oz as well.

[Paul Scheer]

The Toto that I know would have followed that horse and carriage and jumped in the back and.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, I felt that, too. I felt that, too.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Do you guys think. And maybe this is for the. Later in the episode, but if this. I can't even. If this had no relationship to the movie the wizard of Oz, but was just a 1980s, like. Like, like I'm saying, like, Pan's Labyrinth, dark crystal Lab, regular labyrinth, I might feel different. Would you enjoy a movie in which a little girl descends into a fan? Like, I like Wonderland type of a story that's dark and scary. And, I mean, I still agree, this is so aimless. And I don't quite know who wants what and how. And I'm not tracking if we're getting closer or further away. But I. I liked a lot of the movie. If. If I'm being honest, watching the movie, I liked quite a bit of it. Once I let go of the fact that any of it was gonna somehow be related to the movie that I remember as the wizard of Oz, well.

[Paul Scheer]

I let go of that and I was simply disturbed like that. Like, that was the thing. Like, I was disturbed by.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But that's what I didn't mind. I was like, oh, I don't mind. Like, dark, kid. Kid. Like, dark. This is scary. This is. I. I didn't mind that as much. I guess, if I took it away from the fact, well, then this. But this isn't Oz. This is, you know, this. I kept kind of bumping out by being like, oh, this is not the wizard of Oz. This is like the Dark Crystal, you know?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. I mean, I think that it was very hard for me to divorce from the wizard of Oz. I just. I couldn't. Even though there were things that I really loved, too there. I loved that hallway of heads. I loved, you know, her trying to get the key or whatever it was from the headless from Princess Mumbai. And there were. There were moments that were so great. But I also. To not have any of the Beauty of Oz or even to not have, like, the beauty of Glinda or this Princess Oz in the mirror, to not have any of, like, the magical beauty was really Hard for me. And even the way Dorothy was dressed, I actually took. I actually need to speak about this. This for a while. Great. Let's go clear the deck here.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Hold on. I will. Excuse me. I'm gonna mute my.

[Paul Scheer]

Great.

[June Diane Raphael]

Jason's muted. You know, I understand that you're not going to ever just replicate or, or reach the height of like what that iconic blue and white gingham dress was. And I get that. So don't even. So don't try to do that or a version of that. But to do what they did to put her in that white, weird white dress, which I, I can't even track. Did it change from the asylum to Oz? I don't think exactly the same. And it's like it was so. Not that it needs to be flattering on a nine year old child, but it was so sort of shapeless in story, strange, billowy. It's all sleeves.

[Paul Scheer]

It wasn't. There was nothing about it. Like, if I'm a kid watching this movie, I don't feel connected in any way.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's exactly my point. There's nothing for me.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, I think her bows were too big in her hair.

[June Diane Raphael]

Her bows were too big.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It felt to me like they were trying to be. I, I wouldn't be surprised if they were like, oh, no, no. We did the research. This is what a 10 year old girl would have worn.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's what kills this movie these years.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And, and so the movie we're making is a more grounded, more faithful representation of. You know what I mean, in the.

[June Diane Raphael]

In a way, when I tell you, Jason, when those ruby red slippers came out, I, I just was like, thank you for giving me something to look at.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

To feast my weary eyes upon. And I, I did love. I thought it was like a wonderful little gender bending moment when the king gnome or whoever he was like, pulled up his little. Pulled up that fabric that he was wearing to reveal those slippers.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

There were moments I liked in here.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. I think if you're right, Jason, if you change your point of view on it, there's something very, like, weird. It's like, it is so much of.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What'S weird about it is that it's a Wizard of Oz movie.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I mean, now here, you know, it's like there are these things about it that are very specific. It doesn't feel like what they were trying to do. Right. It feels marketed to a kids movie. Here's the thing that upset me though, which is I'm Okay, I'll take the, The. The. The dress. I'll take the less likable characters. I'll take all of that. But when you turn Oz back, like, let me see something. And it looks like the shittiest wedding venue, like, on the outskirts of New Jersey that you could possibly get to, I was like, this is not Oz. This is.

[June Diane Raphael]

This is not my eyes. This is not my Oz.

[Paul Scheer]

Not my Oz.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Hashtag not my Oz. My Oz is Dr. Oz, who's I haven't checked in with in a number of years.

[Paul Scheer]

But his name. No. Oh, no, no, no.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, no.

[June Diane Raphael]

Align yourself with him.

[Paul Scheer]

You. Yeah, you want to get yourself on. You want to go Dr. Phil. That's the one that you want to align.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Phil. He's the one. Oh, man. Oprah picks terrible doctors. I think is the note there, I.

[Paul Scheer]

Mean, or the power goes to their head. We already know that doctors have, you know, they already have a God complex. You put them with Oprah, then they gotta go to the next level. Today's podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Whether you're just starting out or scaling up your business, Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help your business stand out and succeed online. Now, I love Squarespace because it gives me everything I need. You can offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. You can streamline your workflow. Keep it all in one spot. That's right. Built in appointment scheduling? Check. Email marketing tools. Check. I have been using Squarespace forever. You can see each one of my websites. Whether it's the dark web, Paul Shear unspooled, or how did this get made? Is completely a unique experience. And I love building there because it makes me feel free and creative to offer the things that I want to offer. Now, head to squarespace.combonkers for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code Bonkers. It's B O N K E R s to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. A new year, colder days. This is the moment your winter wardrobe really has to deliver. And if you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last season. Out after season. Quint's brings together premium materials, thoughtful design, and enduring quality so you can stay warm, look sharp, and feel your best all season. Long now. I love their outerwear. Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. See, I got this long coat. It's fashionable. It's great. I got so many compliments when I wore it to my Christmas party. Since I've been purchasing from Quincy, all of the stuff has stayed in great shape. It's not like those fly by night fashions that just fall apart after the first season. No quints is quality. And I'm going to tell you this much. It's not just clothes. It's home, bath, kitchen, travel. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.combonkers for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I-N-C-E.com bonkers free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com bonkers. You know, one in five Americans have learn a new language on their bucket list. If that's you, make 2025 the year you finally check it off with Babbel, the language app that makes grammar fun and actually worth your time. I am in day 130 of working on Babbel. I love it. Why? Because I can practice real life conversation step by step without the stress. I build confidence to speak when it matters. From ordering a coffee to chatting with new friends abroad, I have found my learning on Babbel to be so much fun. You are learning tons of words, but they're coming so naturally. Babbel has been truly a game changer, something that I've always put off and now I am a firm believer in. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 55% off your Babel subscription at babbel.com bonkers get up to 55% off at babbel.com forward slash bonkers spelled B-A B-B-E-L.com forward slash bonkers. Rules and restrictions may apply. I'm going to be thinking about this movie more than I should because there are images in it and I need to talk about a character that's near and dear to you, Jason, which is the gnome, the rock monster gnome who does not want chickens in Oz. We don't know why he doesn't want chickens. And at the end of the movie. Yeah. Bellina, the chicken shits an egg down his throat and kills him.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh no, dear. Oh, I finally laid my egg. Don't you know that eggs are poison?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Toys On e.

[Paul Scheer]

Poison. Poison to your.

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay, wait a second. Does she know that that's poison?

[Paul Scheer]

I think the chicken was just as scared.

[June Diane Raphael]

And is that how you should. An egg? Like, that's what happens physiologically. You get really scared.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

My assumption was that the. The chicken knew that the egg would kill him because it's only visible slightly. In one scene, he's wearing a medic alert bracelet that says, severely allergic to eggs.

[June Diane Raphael]

Stop it right now.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, you should have.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Which is a bracelet. Which is a bracelet that my mother made me wear for my entire childhood.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, man.

[June Diane Raphael]

Jason. But you had to wear it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, no, no. Without a doubt, it was essential. Oh, no, no essential. But it met me wearing a little. A silver bracelet that just said severely allergic to eggs on the back of it engraved.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, my gosh.

[June Diane Raphael]

But, you know, it breaks my heart, but I'm also like, yeah, hey, good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Thank God.

[June Diane Raphael]

Good, good.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, you know, I. I do. I. You know, I thought that there was something really odd or interesting about the fact that instead of just. Well, he just wanted chickens gone. Like, he had like a. A chicken genocide in Oz. In a way, you know, it's like he, like. And only because the fear that that might happen. I mean, and he got it. Good. He got it.

[June Diane Raphael]

Did he ever. I mean, did that feel healing to you? In some ways, Jason, it really.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, it. It really brought something home for me. You know, it really. I felt as though all of my angst and anxieties with my allergy really, this. This was a. A salve. It really helped, you know, could you.

[Paul Scheer]

Have been this person? You know, Jason, could. If your mom didn't make you that bracelet, could you have. Could you have become a gnome knight, you know, gnome king and freezing everybody?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, if. If my parents had simply. If my mother had simply said to me, chickens are the threat. You know what I mean? Instead of people are the threat.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

People are going to give you eggs so that my trust, my. I. I learned to not trust people. But if I had been told, don't trust chickens. Much different. Much different.

[June Diane Raphael]

And maybe we wouldn't have the podcast.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like, we can't go through those sliding doors because, you know, everything kind of happened for a reason as well.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Sure.

[June Diane Raphael]

How I think of it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah. And let's me be very clear. There would be no chickens on Earth because the last 45 years of my life would have been spent just murdering chickens.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, God.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, yeah, they don't really get into why the chickens are outlawed or how he got rid of the chickens. But I, I'm gonna say it definitely was not. It was not pleasant. I mean, he is a. He tortures. I mean, the fact that he does that little game with them.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, to turn them into ornaments.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, to ornaments. Yeah, to ornaments. And by the way, like. But then when we see them, they're not ornaments as we know them, although they're just like. But they're like, call them ornaments.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To call them ornaments rather than like tchotchkes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes. I would have loved it if everybody.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Turned into curios and tchotchkes. But I, But I actually, I will say that was one of the things that I actually liked, which is when she goes into that room and that room is, you know, like there are these elements that they're playing with that I thought were fun at times where it's like they're in the stone cave and it's all. It looks like a stone cave and he's made of stone, he's part of the cave, blah, blah, blah. And then when she goes through the thing into like an opulent, beautiful city, like castle level sitting room. You know, it, it has like, it. There are, There are visual things that I felt like were like, oh, this is cool. And then all the ornaments around that you realize, oh, these were people or these are people or things, I guess that he's changed into these ornaments. And, And I dug that. You know, there's. There was stuff in here that I liked. I just wish I understood the why, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Right. Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

In service of what in there about the earth's resources and him feeling like they were stolen. But that, that sort of fell apart for me too, because of her argument, which was like, well, the scarecrow, it was already Emerald City.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[June Diane Raphael]

When he started to reign there.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. So there's a world in which he was also like the. The wizard of Oz was all powerful. But then the gnome knight was just waiting in the wings.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, no, what's interesting is the wizard of Oz was not powerful. He was just revealed to be a man. But what then this movie suggests is. But don't worry that lesson, don't learn it, because there is an all powerful bad guy, and that is this guy.

[Paul Scheer]

But what I'm saying is, like in the world of Oz, people were scared of the wizard because he had portrayed himself.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Sorry.

[Paul Scheer]

As the all powerful. But yet. And with a big crazy face. But yet there was a man with a big crazy face. And that's the thing. If you're gonna make a sequel to the wizard of Oz and maybe that's where I'm coming down on this whole movie. It's like, why are we doing the same? Why does she have three companions? Why does she swap out the dog for the chicken? Just do a whole different event. Not every journey to Oz needs to go on a trek to a place and then a, you know, a coronation at the end.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's so interesting because it's like we have. And it's different because it's a retelling. But let's just use as an example the Wiz. I like the way as another installment in this story's evolution because the Wiz is a riff on the wizard of Oz, the movie, obviously, not the book. So. So, like. And that is unquestionably, incredibly successful and a. An amazing movie, you know. So to me, to get from there, I'm like, we've now had multiple generations where we have institutionalized the version of these characters and these stories where they sing and it is colorful. Why make this so drab? Why? And I get it. It's the books. And you can say that all you want, but you really. I think.

[June Diane Raphael]

I'll never say it. I'll never say it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, no, I mean them. I'm sure that was their thing, you know, them being like, well, no, we're taking it back to the books, you know, but then why, if the books are so much less visually enjoyable? I guess.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, look, it's a real bait and switch. That's what we're saying here. It's a real bait and switch. Now put Toni Collette in there. You know, give me the. Again, I. Give me hereditary. I do want hereditary. I'm all for.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I would love an Ari. Ari Aster needs to start making the rest of the L. Frank Baum books.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, let's get it. Let's start from the beginning. I want to see it from his perspective the whole way through, but because I do think this is a horror movie. It's about a girl who is about to go through very traumatic electroshock therapy. She escapes through her imagination, but which is not actually her imagination. I mean, I think the ending of this movie and I think that they pulled away from it is she wakes up and you see the doctor pulling the. The. The two things away from her head. And she's like. She's like, oh, where am I? And he's like, you're home.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And then they wheel her back out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's it. That. That would be great. That would be great. And what if he was like, you know, he said something to the effect of like. Like, do you. What. What do you think about Oz? And she was like, what's that? You know what I mean? Because isn't that what they say in the beginning is you won't remember it?

[Paul Scheer]

Or like, they go, here's your key back. She's like, what is this?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And then she just starts. Blood just comes out of her nose. Yeah. This one nostril.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. And she starts to float in the air.

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay, but in this movie, Return to Oz.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Is the woman who. Like the head nurse at the institution, is she in jail at the end? She in a jail horse carriage?

[Paul Scheer]

Apparently so. Apparently there's a lot of deleted scenes that did not make it into this film. There's like a work print that people have seen and so much so that I found them to be like, there's a through J of deleted scenes here. But the idea being that she basically was. There are other prisoners. Not prisoners, patients that were like, abused and mistreated and kept in the basement.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what this is like Sucker punch.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Interesting of a Remember of it because.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

There is a world in which the first Oz is. She's in a coma from, you know, the tornado. And there's a world in which this one is the entirety of Oz is during her electroshock treatment. Like, it is always a trip inside the mind rather than a real trip into a different world. There's a Jacob's Ladder scenario potentially happening here. You know, like, there's just. Ah, boy, I just wish the movie, because that would be a fun scary movie. Little kid. Scary movie. Yeah. To descend into a world that isn't joyous and full of song, but is nonetheless full of characters that you need to befriend and help them on their journeys.

[Paul Scheer]

And. And, you know, Jason, I. You know, and. And June, I apologize for saying this right now. I don't like to get into politics, but I did not like the fact that they elected the scarecrow as the king of Oz. I felt like, how did we decide that? How did. Like, he was a weak. He was a straw man. Literally a straw man.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, and we see what happens. We got scarecrows in power. We got a scarecrow in power. And the entire. He spent all of the emeralds and the country fell. All of us fell into complete disarray. The infrastructure is out of control. The yellow brick road is all torn up. The. There's no infrastructure going on.

[Paul Scheer]

There's no health wheelers out there to clean it up. You know, this is what I'm saying.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The Wheelers are unchecked. They don't have badges.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, the Wheelers.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I thought the design of and the execution of those wheelers was cool as hell.

[Paul Scheer]

Very cool.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I like that.

[June Diane Raphael]

Those wheelers were incredibly unsettling in a great way and in a very compelling way.

[Paul Scheer]

They were, I think, scarier than the monkeys because I think that's what they were supposed to be.

[June Diane Raphael]

Now, I will say this, but they were scarier because they were human, and they were scarier because they were chaotic in a way that the monkeys seemed ruled by something like the wheelers had an energy to them that was just so. Like, just. They seemed completely out of control.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, their movements are so foreign. You know, those big, long front arms ending in wheels, like monkeys flying are just monkeys flying. Everything in the wizard of Oz kind of went normal.

[Paul Scheer]

Ish.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

These guys looked like. It felt like body horror, you know?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, exactly.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This felt like David Cronenberg's return to Oz.

[Paul Scheer]

Crash. I would like to see Crash with the Wheelers. Now, here's the thing. When Oz turns back, the Wheelers are still Wheelers. I thought the Wheelers would be, like, normal people, but they are just still Wheelers. They're just nicer Wheelers.

[June Diane Raphael]

Because here's the thing. They weren't the wheel. I actually. I don't remember where even the Wheelers came from, but I didn't get from the gurney. What do you mean?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What do you mean?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, oh. Like, if we're trying to find, like, the connection of, like, the Wheelers are the guys pushing the gurney when she's strapped down to the gurney in the real world.

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay. But it didn't seem like they were like the people who were transformed into stone like other members of Emerald City. Like, they had been different things before. The ornaments had all been different things. Like, the Wheelers just seem to exist there as well.

[Paul Scheer]

I agree.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. They seemed like a gang, you know, and they. And not for nothing, they did. And. And I know this is go. I said they were cool and I really liked them, but they also had a bit of a Starlight express element.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, big time. I mean, that felt like they just grabbed them off the set. This was shot in the uk. I bet you they just say, guys can come over here.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, you got. You guys can come do this.

[Paul Scheer]

And they're like, this rough.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Andrew will give you the day off.

[Paul Scheer]

This is, I mean, so much here. Obviously, we have opinions about this movie, but you'd be surprised to find out that there.

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay, I'm not surprised. I am sure. When I was watching this, I was like, I bet there's actually a lot of people that I.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is going back many years.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Going back many years. I dated a woman who. This was one of her favorite.

[June Diane Raphael]

I'm not from.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

From her child. Like from her era of.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I know why she dated you now. Because you reminded her of her favorite villain of all the movie.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, she was. She kept calling me her rock king.

[Paul Scheer]

No, but she did travel with skates on her hands. And feet.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And feet, yeah. Not skates. Single wheels.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. By the way, I will say this. You didn't know this.

[June Diane Raphael]

I'm sorry. This movie being your favorite movie is a red flag for me. Yeah, that's a red flag, all right.

[Paul Scheer]

But, you know, it's also like that peanut butter solution movie. Sometimes when you get traumatized by a movie very young, it can like seep in because it's like. It's almost like a rite of passage, you know, a badge of honor, I think.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And I would wonder. And if you're listening to this and you are that generation for whom this movie was right in your sweet spot. I bet this was a good. Good. In quotes.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Scary movie for kids. That wasn't so scary scary. You know what I mean?

[Paul Scheer]

I really wanted to show it to our kids. I was going to suggest that to you tonight, June, but.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, so now I will say this. Obviously there are people out there with a different opinion. It is now time for second opinions.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The movie was a piece of. Tell me, what is the message? Maybe that art is subjected. I need a second opinion.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, hopefully one of these is written by your ex girlfriend, Jason.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, that would be great.

[Paul Scheer]

But I will tell you this much. There are 5,634reviews for return to Oz.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

And 80% are five star reviews.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Holy shit.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, 80%. Now, some of these are written by the Wheelers, I think, because it's just a lot of. A lot of skid marks around here. It says this. Sean Plorty says, make your kids watch this. It gave my daughter nightmares. 10 out of 10 approved. 5 stars. We gotta check on Sean Fl, please. I don't think that that's the way to parent. This one is. This one is an interesting one because all these are odd. KLW's title is, I enjoy being able to share childhood memories with my children. Okay, great. I bought the digital copy instead of the actual dvd only because I didn't wanna wait the two days for shipping. And I love that it is on our tv, computer, tablets and phones. We can watch it no matter where we are. Now I do remember being a little creeped out by some of these characters. That hasn't changed. Luckily my children aren't creeped out. They can watch this movie multiple times a day. The Wheelers and the headless Queen are disturbing to me. But it's still a great movie. Just don't overthink it. It doesn't add up. Just go along with it. Five stars.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't disagree with some of those sentiments. Not five stars. But like just go along with it is a good. Because there is stuff in here that's interesting to watch. Just don't. If you're trying to find story in here, it's just not there.

[Paul Scheer]

I want to say that, you know, while we have pointed out that there's not much here. A viewer who titled their review most underrated major view studio film from 1950. I don't know if that is right. It is about this movie says a strong statement on modern commodification, social alienation and the ethical courage to pierce through it which may appear tantamount to insanity. A truly underappreciated classic. Five stars. So it's saying in a world where insanity is being creative.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Which I don't get. Because at the end she's not creative. I bet she's gonna work on that fucking farm again.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh yeah. She can't do any. I mean, it would be so hard the. The. The gravitational pull for somebody on a farm in Kansas to get away from that in 1930. Whatever. I mean, impossible.

[Paul Scheer]

Now I'll tell you this much. The final scene of the film that was cut out is a minute and a half long scene of Dorothy and Toto playing in a field. Wow. And then here's my final review. Cause I know we have to wrap it up. My final review is simply this. From V Title, you know, review. You know, if you like it or you don't. So I don't know why you're reading a review. Maybe you'll like it, maybe I won't. Five stars.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wow. That's great.

[Paul Scheer]

So there we go.

[June Diane Raphael]

I mean, I guess that's true.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It is.

[Paul Scheer]

Would you. I mean, I guess I don't know how to feel. Would you recommend it? I kind of. For me, I'll just jump in first. Say yes. Because it's so odd. It's so weird. It's worth a watch. I don't think it flies quickly by, but it is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But it is almost two hours as well. Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Long it's long, long and A through J is cut out. By the way, you should see the amount of scenes that are cut out of this thing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's an editor, that's an editor's movie. He's willing to cut out all those scenes.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I guess he, at a certain point he's, he's going to be making like a four hour opus over here.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But I mean that if you can like, like really go into it putting the wizard of Oz aside.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean an almost impossible ask, but I think that there was a lot of parts of this movie that I had fun just watching just because it was gonzo nutso stuff, you know. And lots of what we haven't talked about, obviously is this is an era where, I mean, 1985, all of these fantastical elements, the pumpkin guy, the TikTok, all the, these are practical elements. These are puppets, these are. There is a lot of cool stuff here to look at and be inside of. Is it a good story? Does it make sense? No, but is it like boring or uninteresting? No, I don't think so. I just think it doesn't hold together as a movie and it really doesn't feel like it's any kind of continuation of what I understand to be the Oz saga, even though I know it is. But. So yeah, I would say watch it, but if you can, I think you'll enjoy it more if you just are like, oh, I wonder if I can watch a 10 year old girl be surrounded by horrors for two hours and still keep going.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, I bet there's like, there's not really an overlap between people who love the wizard of Oz and I consider myself one of those people love the movie and who love this movie. I think there's probably a lot of people who love the books deeply and like are huge fans of the series and then love this movie, Return to Oz and didn't had issues with wizard of Oz because it's not really faithful.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, I, I bet that's true and I bet the other thing that's true is I bet there's a lot of people for whom this was a movie that was constantly available to them to watch all the time, anytime, like on cable or on Disney Channel or whatever.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like, I bet this, I mean I have never seen any of these images before.

[Paul Scheer]

I have seen these characters I definitely have seen, but maybe, but that's because I trolled video stores as a kid. Like it was like one of those ones.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This was one of those things that like people saw more of this because it was more available and the wizard of Oz felt like, like, well, that's so old. That's from olden days, you know, this is.

[June Diane Raphael]

And yet this looked so much older to me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah. I don't know. I'd be curious to hear from. Oh, actually, I'm not.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I was gonna say I'm not curious to hear from fans, and I don't want to hear from fans, so, you know, Scott, you can cut that straight out of the podcast.

[Paul Scheer]

All right. Jason June.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wow. I, I. Oh, that. I almost just made a. Yeah, you.

[Paul Scheer]

Really opened yourself up to a lot of conversations. Wow.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I, I, I stopped myself midway. So are you doing.

[June Diane Raphael]

Don't be.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So this is, this is the invitation I've been waiting for.

[June Diane Raphael]

I've already said it. People who love this movie. That's a red flag.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, and you know, the this song I say is that I hope that this brings you back together with your ex, Jason, that she finally understands that you have some appreciation for what she liked.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, I did. Don't worry. I did text her to say we are doing Return to Oz on the podcast.

[Paul Scheer]

Jason June, do you want to promote anything? Let anybody know what is out there, what they should be looking for?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Sure. Percy Jackson Season 2 is going on right now. A man on the inside. And if you're hearing this and you're in the New York area, I will be on Broadway in the show all out at the Nederlander Theater. You can get tickets now.

[Paul Scheer]

Ooh, exciting. Exciting. June.

[June Diane Raphael]

Nothing for me.

[Paul Scheer]

All right, there you go. And I'll tell people I released this little mini documentary where I talk to Taylor Swift dads, and it's, you don't have to be a Taylor Swift fan. You don't have to be a dad. You just have to be a human. If you're a child, you have a child. You've ever been to a concert? I think you might like it. It's 15 minutes.

[June Diane Raphael]

You can check it out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And just to be clear, you mean dads of Taylor Swift fans, not Taylor Swift's dads?

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. That is. Yeah, I did not get to talk to all of her dads. That is another documentary I'm working on. And a lot of people say, well, you're digging. There's only one that we know of. I know there's more. I know there's more. I'll get to the bottom of it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To be done.

[Paul Scheer]

I will get to the bottom of it. All right, that's it. If you listen to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Please rate and review us. Also, make sure you're following us and have automatic downloads turned on. It helps the show and we appreciate it. And a big thank you to our producers, Scott Sonny, Molly Reynolds and our engineer, Casey Holford, as well as our social media manager, Zoe Applebaum. And of course, we will forever be grateful to the one and only Avril Halley. Thank you everybody for listening. We'll see you next time. Remember, give us your corrections and omissions, but not your opinions. He's Kenny Maine, the funny guy from espn.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Formerly, he's Cooper Manning, the more intelligent and handsome of the Manning brothers. And he's Brian Baumgartner.

[Paul Scheer]

But to me, he'll always be Kevin from the office. Office. Yeah, you and everybody else together. We're the hosts of the new comedy golf podcast, We Need a Fourth from.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Smartless Media and Sirius xm.

[Paul Scheer]

It's like a cold beer after a round.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You hear the strangest and most bizarre.

[Paul Scheer]

Golf stories from our friends, athletes, celebrities and comedians.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's all about how much we love golf and how much we hate golf. New episodes are out every week. Listen now and subscribe. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Could just be anywhere, just on a couch. Doesn't matter. The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost funds. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com Special offer terms apply.