Zack Snyder’s Justice League w/ Griffin Newman, David Sims (HDTGM Matinee)

Summary

How Did This Get Made? - Episode Summary: Zack Snyder’s Justice League with Griffin Newman & David Sims

Podcast Information:

• Title: How Did This Get Made?
• Hosts: Paul Scheer, June Diane Raphael, Jason Mantzoukas
• Guests: Griffin Newman, David Sims
• Episode: Zack Snyder’s Justice League w/ Griffin Newman, David Sims (HDTGM Matinee)
• Release Date: March 4, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of "How Did This Get Made?", hosts Paul Scheer, June Diane Raphael, and Jason Mantzoukas delve deep into "Zack Snyder’s Justice League". Joined by special guests Griffin Newman from "The Tick" and David Sims, a film critic at The Atlantic, the discussion revolves around the complexities, triumphs, and tribulations of bringing Snyder's visionary project to life.

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Background on Zack Snyder’s Justice League

Zack Snyder, renowned for his distinct visual style and commitment to a cohesive cinematic universe, initially envisioned a five-film DC Extended Universe (DCEU) starting with "Man of Steel" and culminating in a "Justice League" trilogy. However, following mixed reactions to "Batman v Superman" and "Suicide Squad," Warner Brothers sought to lighten the tone by bringing in Joss Whedon. Whedon’s intervention resulted in significant alterations:

• Script Rewrite: Added 80 pages, shifting the movie’s tone to be more humorous.
• Visual Changes: Only 10% of Snyder’s original footage was used.
• Duration: The theatrical cut was a disjointed two-hour film that failed to resonate with audiences, leading to poor box office performance.

The fan-driven demand led to the release of "Zack Snyder’s Justice League" in 2021, a four-hour director's cut that restored Snyder’s original vision with minor reshoots and a significantly increased budget of $70 million.

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Discussion with Guests

Griffin Newman’s Perspective

Griffin Newman shared his journey of immersing himself in the DCEU, watching all cuts of "Batman v Superman" and "Justice League." He highlighted the shift in tone and storytelling between Snyder’s and Whedon’s versions, expressing initial skepticism but eventual appreciation for the depth and cohesion in Snyder’s vision.

Notable Quote:

“The Snyder cut is a better version of the movie Justice League, full stop.”
— Paul Scheer [12:11]

David Sims’ Insight

David Sims provided a critical analysis of Snyder’s approach, emphasizing the architectural brilliance of the film's structure. He compared Snyder’s style to Christopher Nolan’s meticulous filmmaking, acknowledging the aesthetic prowess while critiquing the underlying worldview depicted in the movie.

Notable Quote:

“Zack Snyder is an incredibly compelling visual stylist. He's not a bad filmmaker. I don't like his worldview or his point of view, and so the movies don't tend to resonate with me, but I still like them.”
— Paul Scheer [75:28]

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Key Points and Insights

The Snyder vs. Whedon Cuts

• Narrative Cohesion: Snyder’s version is lauded for its consistent tone and comprehensive character development, particularly for characters like Cyborg and Flash.
• Visual Style: The four-hour runtime allows for elaborate world-building and intricate action sequences that align with Snyder’s signature style.
• Fan Influence: The persistent fan campaign, characterized by substantial online petitions, was instrumental in bringing Snyder’s cut to fruition.

Notable Quote:

“Every time they are showing Themyscira, it's fantastic because Zack Snyder's style works. It looks like 300.”
— Paul Scheer [66:23]

DC vs. Marvel Cinematic Universes

• DC’s Singular Vision: Snyder aimed for a unified DCEU with interconnected storylines, contrasting Marvel’s diverse and flexible approach.
• Marvel’s Success: Marvel, under Kevin Feige, successfully manages a sprawling universe by allowing distinct tones and styles across its properties.
• DC’s Fragmentation: Post-Snyder, DC has embraced multiple interpretations of its characters across various mediums, reducing the necessity for a single cohesive narrative.

Notable Quote:

“Marvel works with ownership. DC has diversified more, the films are becoming more individual, more separate from each other.”
— Paul Scheer [71:05]

Technical and Storytelling Choices

• Slow Motion and Visual Effects: The extensive use of slow motion in Snyder’s cut is both praised for its stylistic flair and critiqued for overuse, potentially alienating some viewers.
• Character Development: Snyder’s Justice League provides deeper emotional arcs, especially for Cyborg, positioning him as the emotional core of the film.
• Epilogue and Future Setups: The extended epilogue in Snyder’s cut hints at future storylines involving Darkseid and an apocalyptic vision, though it raises questions about narrative completeness and feasibility.

Notable Quote:

“I stopped taking notes because I'm here, I'm in. Every now and then, I might jot down one thing, but I was like, you have pulled me into a world.”
— Jason Mantzoukas [19:33]

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Conclusions

The episode offers a nuanced exploration of "Zack Snyder’s Justice League", acknowledging both its artistic strengths and its polarizing elements. While the hosts and guests appreciate the film's ambitious scope and visual storytelling, they also recognize the challenges posed by its length and tonal complexity. The discussion underscores the distinct differences between DC’s and Marvel’s approaches to building cinematic universes, highlighting the importance of cohesive storytelling and visionary direction.

Final Notable Quote:

“These are movies that I go back to over and over again because they vibrate at the frequency of superhero storytelling that I'm interested in watching in a way that these Snyder movies do not.”
— Paul Scheer [89:08]

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the content-rich sections of the transcript, excluding advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode's main discussions and insights.

Transcript

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[Griffin Newman]

Now it's time for how to Discover Made.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We're gonna have a good time celebrating failure, not just be a hater.

[Paul Scheer]

Cause you know you wonder how did this remain? Let's wallow in the mediocrity of subpar art.

[Griffin Newman]

Perhaps we'll find the answ to the.

[Paul Scheer]

Question how did this get Made?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Hello people of Earth. I have gone by many names. Some have called me Martian Manhunter. Others call me Tall John Shear. Welcome to how did this Get Made? And hold on to your mother boxes. Today we are talking about Zack Snyder's the Justice League. It's an epic. Consider it Bat Her Return to the Superman. Here's the premise. Batman and Wonder Woman team up with the Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg to protect the Earth from an evil that threatens to eradicate life on the planet. In doing so, they must Revives Superman and it all ends in Russia. Now that's the plot. Now, if you're wondering what is Zack Snyder's Justice League, let me explain it as quickly as I can possibly do it. Zack Snyder, he had planned on a five film series in the DC universe. That's man of Steel, Batman vs Superman, a Justice League trilogy. But because of Batman vs Superman and suicide Squad, not really working, people being upset with it, they decided they would bring in somebody to make it a little bit lighter, a little bit more fun. So they brought in Chris Terrio, who is responsible for Rise of Skywalker as well as Argo. They shoot the movie, they finish it. They're like, okay, this is pretty good. 90% complete. Warner Brothers watches it. They say this is unwatchable. They hire Joss Whedon to come in and rewrite the script and help with the reshoots. During this time, Zack Snyder suffers a terrible family tragedy. He leaves the project. Joss Whedon then gets full control of the production. He adds 80 pages to the script, only uses 10% of Snyder's original footage, changes the score, and the movie comes out. And basically people are like, at best, it's a Frankenstein movie. It's just it, incongruous tones. People don't really love it at all. The movie kind of tanks. They go away from the franchises, they go into these individual films and then online, this growing movement of release, the Snyder cut comes out. It seems like a joke. It seems like this is never gonna Happen. They get 180,000 signatures on some virtual petition, and all of a sudden in 2019, we hear that it's happening. The Snyder cut is happening. It initially is gonna involve some reshoots. It's gonna cost about 30 million doll. Zack Snyder comes in, he adds five minutes or less of new footage, and the budget is now at $70 million to complete the film. That is what we watched. Four hours and two minutes of a film that was 90% complete via, you know, not including VFX shots. So this is the version and this is what we're gonna get into today. And. And there's no better person and there's no better people to talk about this with today than our guests, but also my co host, please, Welco Manzukas.

[Paul Scheer]

Paul. Wow, this is. This was wild. This was a wide. This has been a wild journey to watch the, as you said, like, the progression of Zack Snyder's, like, larger dceu, the creation of it as it's been going. I have not enjoyed it as it's been Going along. I am. I am a. I was a Marvel kid, not a DC kid, but I'm fully open to DC movies. I liked the Richard Donner Batman. I mean, Superman, rather. I enjoyed Nolan's Batman.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Same.

[Paul Scheer]

But these movies, man of Steel. And then just in preparation for this, this is. This is the nightmare that I've decided to live in. In preparation for this conversation, I have watched the Batman v Superman extended cut that is three hours long, a mistake, and is like. It might as well be a concrete, brutalist piece of architecture. It is so insane. And then I've watched Whedon's cut and I watched the Snyder cut.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I did that. So.

[Paul Scheer]

So. So we are, for those of you complaining that you just watched the Snyder cut. Fuck you. I watched all of it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I did, too. And I'm excited to talk to you. And.

[Paul Scheer]

And I've got takes. I've got takes for days. Bring these guests. Let's do this.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I cannot wait. This is going to probably be a different. I have a feeling it's gonna be a different episode. I suspect it is. And never have I been so thankful that June Diane Rayfield is out of town and unable to record because we would never have a chance to do this episode. She would not stand for it. And rightly so. Rightly so.

[Paul Scheer]

I don't think she would even let you watch this movie at home.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't believe so. Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

So don't you have. Doesn't she have parental blocks on certain channels for you?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She does it on my computer and on my ph. I can only watch YouTube kids. Look, I will say that my history with June and superhero movies is very.

[Paul Scheer]

I got banned from YouTube. Kids.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The only. Well, that's because you make those weird. Like those weird Mario Walkthrough videos. All right, so, yes, June's only. The only two superhero movies I think June has seen. Well, definitely Wonder Woman, definitely Ant man, and she fell asleep during Guardians of the Galaxy one. That's where I know where she's at. So this would really be a tricky one for her to get into. But we have decided to cross over, share the space with one of our favorite podcasts. I'm going to introduce them both individually, but talk about their podcast. First of all, you know them as. Together as the hosts of Blank Check, which reviews directors complete filmographies episode to episode. Specifically auteurs, whose early successes afforded them a rare blank check from Hollywood to produce passion projects. Each new miniseries kind of breaks them down, gets into great detail. Right now they're doing this amazing Bracket directors against directors going up against each other, which is just fantastic.

[Paul Scheer]

But individually, individually, they are also the two friends.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes, they are.

[Paul Scheer]

Don't worry. They are also hashtag thetwriends. And let's not forget that sometimes, you know those checks they cash and sometimes they bounce, baby.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Please look up our first guest, Griffin Newman. You know him as Arthur on the Tick or Watto on the George Lucas talk show. He also lends his voice to the upcoming Masters of the Universe revelation on Netflix. Griffin, how are you?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm doing all right. You know, Jason was throwing down his bona fides for how deep he had gone into Snyder in the last week. I did all of that, plus man of Steel and dawn of the Dead, so I feel like I sped. Yeah, I want to go back to the beginning. I want to go back to the beginning.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, you gotta see the whole thing. All right. And our next co host for today's show, also a host of Blank Check, please welcome David Sims. He's a film critic at the Atlantic and his interview with Chloe Zhao is excellent. If you have not read that she directed no Man Land. So please welcome David Sims. How are you, David?

[June Diane Raphael]

Thank you. I'm doing well. It was fun. I feel like Chloe and I mostly talked about her dogs. We kept swinging back around to her dogs in that interview. That's what I remember most. I would like to say that I watched the Snyder cut and then I said to my wife, maybe I throw on the Joss Whedon version because I only saw it once. And she was like, I don't want you to do that. And so all I did was I watched the Snyder cut. But look, I saw it all before. I've seen all this stuff.

[Paul Scheer]

We should say that David has a one month old. So the fact that you were able to even steal four hours to watch this is impressive.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We pulled you out of paternity leave and we appreciate you doing this. And it's something that we are excited to have here. I want to. Before we even get into this film, is there any hot takes on where you rank like the DC universe? I'm opening up to everybody. Jason, I know we talked about you already more of a, you know, more of a Marvel guy as I. As am I.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, I have not enjoyed the Marvel. I've not rather enjoyed the DC movies almost at all. You know, like they have been, I would say, largely for me, with the single exception of Wonder Woman 1, they have been unexceptional, uninteresting, and kind of overwhelmed by this Zack Snyder gloomy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm going to disagree with you right off the bat and say Aquaman, Shazam.

[Paul Scheer]

Is fun. Shazam.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Aquaman. Actually Birds of Prey and Shazam are all. I really. I.

[Paul Scheer]

Those are movies to me that are. They are good in comparison to these other terrible movies. But if, but none of them, I think would I put up against Ragnarok.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, that's a hard. That's a. That's a.

[Paul Scheer]

That's why. Why, why can't they do. Why can't they do. Why can't they get there?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That. Because that's like we're still in the beginning. We're not in the 10 year anniversary yet. I mean Thor, Ragnarok came right after the.

[Paul Scheer]

DC is acting like they're not at the beginning.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's my problem.

[Paul Scheer]

D.C. is like drowning the marketplace with stuff like, and, and we can get into it. But I mean my hottest of hot takes is. And I hate to say this because I believe that the only reason we have the Snyder cut is because of toxic fandom and because toxic fandom was rewarded, which is now only going to embolden toxic fans. Because toxic fandom was rewarded, we got the Snyder cut. And I'm here to say the Snyder cut is a better version of the movie Justice League, full stop.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Far better. Well, far. Yeah, Far better.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean it's also four hours long and has like multiple moments of like minutes long exposition dumps. But nonetheless, I'm in.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I want to. I want to. I want to at least I want to break it down. But I want to hear where you guys stand, Dave and Griffin, about on just the DCU where you're at. What do you feel? What do you like? What don't you like?

[Griffin Newman]

I just. Let me. Before we get into this, I just want to state that we had sort of fallen in backwards into sort of doing an ersatz DC universe miniseries on our podcast, even though we don't really like do franchises like that. And it was because of the weirdness of the fact that Warner Brothers seemed to be handing the whole thing over to Snyder. You know, like we're very much about like director visions. And the weirdness of, oh, Marvel is so managed. It's Feige. He has control. He hands it to different people. Everything has to fit in together. And DC went like, everyone reverse engineer your movies. From the temple that Snyder has set out was fascinating to us. So we did bvs. We thought that was going to be a one off. Then when Suicide Squad came out so weird, we were Like, I guess we have to do this. And that set us on the track. And we've been trying to move away from doing it because it does feel like DC has diversified more. The films are becoming more individual, more separate from each other. You know, it's like we don't need to cover them all as if they're one thing. And I had been pushing knowing that David was going to go onto a months long paternity break. We have to do Snyder cut in some way. And David would just go, no, no, no, no. I get five words into. But what if we. No, absolutely not. I'm not taking time. I'm not, I'm not.

[June Diane Raphael]

They announced I figured this was coming in like may, remember this. This thing kind of just came out. I mean, obviously we knew it was coming, but then they suddenly were just like, yeah, it's coming out mid March. Like it's, it's just going to drop. Like I thought it was coming in the summer. They announced it's coming like three weeks after my daughter's birth. I'm like, I absolutely will not watch a four hour movie. What I think I didn't realize was newborn babies are very demanding, but they are very immobile. So you are actually kind of watching a lot of tv.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's the best time because they require a lot, but also not so much. It's like you are grounded. Yeah, you are grounded. You are grounded and you are working. But there is a simplicity to it. Once they start moving, it's a whole nother ball game. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

So are you saying you, your baby's first movie experience was the Snyder cut?

[June Diane Raphael]

No, because my baby's had. I mean, I'm watching a lot of movies right now. One of my baby's first movie experiences was the Snyder cut. Certainly that's like, that's two week old baby. She started hiccuping about two hours into it. There was like an hour of what.

[Paul Scheer]

If your baby's first world is Mama Box. Mama Box?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. She calls my wife Martha for some reason. Look, I should. The Martha dig is so easy. I shouldn't do it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's good.

[June Diane Raphael]

I know. Look, I, I remember seeing Batman vs Superman colon, dawn of Justice at the press screening. I was sitting with a bunch of critics. If you guys remember, there's a scene in that movie where the Flash emerges into a dream that Bruce Wayne is having and yells stuff at him. Do you guys remember what I'm talking about?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm early. I'm too early.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right, right. And it's a scene that is dropped in without explanation. And yes, we're all smart enough to know, like, this is probably some larger universe play than that scene, but it is unexplained. And we all burst out laughing. That's how we felt in 2016. Just all these critics. I remember just sitting in a row, just. We watched this. We're like, what does this thing think it is? What is it doing? And I'm thinking, five years from now, the. I'm not gonna call it turnaround, but the sort of evolution I have made on Zack Snyder's whole sincere deal with this DC universe is surprising to me.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I agree.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's how I'll put it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

A good friend of mine last night who is a very big comic book fan reached out to me and he's like, what did you think of the Snyder cut? And I said, I think he only should make four hour long movies. Because there was something about this movie that felt like, oh, this is the most complete version of this director that I've ever seen. And I was there for it. I feel like the way he cut it up was like. It recognized that. Okay, you could watch it in parts. It was. It. I don't know. There was something about the way that this movie gelled that worked for me. Like, on a. Sure, there's things to make fun of or whatever, but there is something that really works here.

[Paul Scheer]

And I was impressed, especially if you watch it in juxtaposition with the Joss Whedon cut or actually with Batman v Superman. It is simply more cohesive, more interesting, more successful, more successfully plotted, you know, like this. The Justice League movie is confoundingly plotted right in the release, in the theatrical cut. Right. The theatrical cut was like, truly two hours of nonsense. Like, it really was a Russian family, like, even, like populated Russian town, that Steppenwolf is the single bad guy. The both, you know, in two hours, they're trying to build a team, fight a world building evil, resurrect Superman heroes.

[Griffin Newman]

Three of them have essentially not been in movies before.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. Origin story characters who they just. They just show instead. They just show up and are now there.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Cyborg might be one of my favorite characters now.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, literally, here's how much I enjoyed the Snyder cut to a degree. I was like, the minute it started, my first note is, fuck you. It's in four, three.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

I was like, you. How dare you make me watch a different aspect ratio 20 minutes later? I'm like, I don't care. I don't care that it's in 4, 3. This is infinitely better at explaining what's happening to me. And tonally, consistently, tonally consistent throughout. Which was. Which the score helped, which his editing helped. I don't know. Like, it just.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I stopped taking notes. I stopped taking notes because, like, I'm here, I'm in. Like, every now and then, I might jot down one thing, but I was like, you have pulled me into a world. And now I also get, like, people like, oh, it's CGI and slow mo, but. But it felt like I was going over to someone's house to have a meal that I'd never had before. Right. Like, yes. There are a lot of things that I may not have picked myself. There are a lot of things that may not even be my favorite thing, but in presenting, being presented in a loving way, I was open to trying everything there. And I found myself liking it more than I ever thought I would have.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, okay, I need to share my hottest taste that I've been sitting on.

[Paul Scheer]

And I feel the kid Griffin Newman coming in.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm overflowing with hot already. We're touched on so many things that I'm just, like, champing at the bit.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Please just interrupt.

[Griffin Newman]

But I will say right off the bat, because you were asking for a previous history. David and I are much like you guys. We're more Marvel zombies than DC fans. I think I like DC a little more than David does. Like, I. I actually read more DC comics, I think, at our comic reading peak than you. Because you never really read DC titles at all, right.

[June Diane Raphael]

Only stuff like when Grant Morrison did All Star Superman, you know, when people would come in and have, like, some sort of, like, contained take. But anytime I tried to swoop in and be like, you know what? I'm gonna read all the Batman titles, I would tap out really fast because I was just like, I can't, you know, like, I. Reading comic books, if you really want to do it, it's this. It's very time consuming. You got a lot of shit to keep up with. And so, like, Marvel was always as you could handle.

[Paul Scheer]

David, you seem overwhelmed by the concept of reading comic books as a child.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

As a child without a cell phone, I imagine, or Internet.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm just imagining you as a young boy on the streets of New York City, going into the comic shop to buy your comics. I have no reason.

[Griffin Newman]

Waving his arms around. There are too many titles.

[Paul Scheer]

There's too many people. I'm just a young boy living in New York City, you know, I know.

[June Diane Raphael]

Where you're going, Jason. But I was a young boy in New York City. I did go to the comic shop until 9 years of age and then I went to the comic shop in London.

[Paul Scheer]

And then you were like. Then you're like, whoa, give me that, Judge Dredd. You're like, give me these. Give me those. King Britain. Yeah, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't wait to read Dennis the Menace. But the different one, I did read the Beano.

[June Diane Raphael]

I forget if we've talked about this on my podcast. Griffin. Anyway, Griffin, can you wait? What was. Can you have a take?

[Griffin Newman]

So I was just gonna say I was less of a DC guy, but the three character, the three tells I read semi regularly and kept up with the universes of were Flash, Batman and Teen Titans. So like three members of this team essentially comprise the only things I ever seriously followed in the DC universe. Right. Am ostensibly in the tank for. In terms of my rankings, it was always like, wonder Woman's probably my favorite modern superhero movie point blank. Like, I prefer Wonder Woman to all the MCU movies, I think. But then I put pretty much every other MCU movie in between there. I'd say like, Shazam is close to Wonder Woman for me on that tier. And then I like Birds of Prey and Aquaman with some reservations. And then everything else I could pretty much leave behind.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[June Diane Raphael]

I love Aquaman. I'm a huge Aquaman defender, you know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Thank you, David. Like, to me, like, I'm as excited to have you on because I also. There's something about Aquaman that I will say, and I've talked about this where it is in many respects, like what a child would want a superhero movie to be. And I love it. Like, I just love it because it's like, let's do that and let's do. And there's something so pure. And again, like this movie, it's a pure vision. And I think you can like, for what, Joker's a whole other story. But I don't mind that when people with pure visions get involved in this, they make their version and sometimes it really works. And Aquaman for me, really worked in that way.

[June Diane Raphael]

I have to say something before Griffin says his take, just before I lose the thread. I do think with dc, sincerity is crucial. Those heroes are much more sincere. They are these very simple heroes. Not. Not in terms of characterization, but just like in terms of what they stand for. Marvel was the second tier. The second guys coming in and offering more commentary and more grit. But dc, there's purity, like you say. So Wonder Woman, Aquaman, these successful movies, usually they were approaching their material very sincerely and that's why they succeeded. I would say yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think the difference for me, and I want to make it clear, I like Aquaman just less than David.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's so good. I watched it, but. But I watched it again recently. It's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

I think the thing those two movies do really well is embrace all the silliest aspects of the characters that made them feel unadaptable for so long and put a lot of very earnest appreciation into the sort of pure totemic quality of what they represent. Right? Yeah. And I always just was kind of bummed out by the Snyder like, oh, they hate being heroes. This world is so bleak, it's so dark. I mean, it always just kind of felt like Zack Snyder hates superheroes as a concept to me, you know? And like even when he was doing Watchmen and doing press for Watchmen, he kept on saying like, I would never make a Superman movie. I don't get that guy. These are the kinds of heroes I understand. They're like drunk and they're angry and they're bitter and they're washed up. You know, like he kind of framed it that way. And then the fact that he became the architect of this whole universe kind of bummed me out because it is depressively dark view of this thing. And BVS was kind of like for me a real breaking point where I was just like, this is like incoherent to me, you know, beyond it feeling oppressive, this thing just like makes no sense. It is just confounding on a scene to scene basis. And my hottest take is that in my prep week I watched the ultimate cut and I was like, oh, I get it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wow, Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't even know if I like it. I don't know if it's a bridge too far to say that, but like, like talking about what you said, Paul, of like, you watch the four hours of this and go, maybe he should only make four hour movies.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

BvS is like incoherent, perplexing. Two and a half hours and you watch the ultimate cut and you're like, this makes sense on its own terms. I understand it. And perhaps you can only let Snyder go full Snyder and trying to rein him in at all is a recipe for disaster.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, that's the mistake that is born out of both of these extended cuts is it illustrates to you that he did. He was. The messes that came out. The messes that came out were met partially messes because so much had to be extracted to make the, you know, basically, Marvel. Marvel Phase one is ten movies long. To set the stage for, you know, all of these individuals, then bringing them together into teams, then building out. They pop up in each other's movies, little bits here and there. You know, they do a good job of walking you into a constructed world of all of these people and how they're now all going to gel or not gel together in this sense. They tried to do something similar, but I think Snyder's version of it was, let me just make the movies three plus hours long, and we'll get all of those character introductions. We'll get all. We just won't do it in individual movies. And Warner Brothers was like, no, we need two hour movies, man. We need two hour movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's too much, like, to me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The fact that 90% of this movie was shot. Like, I mean, really, it was. I mean, 90% of this movie was done or whatever it was.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, 100% was shot. It was 90% locked, essentially.

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Final effects. Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So that, to me speaks volumes. Like, oh, he shot a four hour movie. Like, there's no version. I mean, the only. I guess we're all talking about the same thing was like, he made a four hour. Like, how do you make this smaller? Like, oh, we saw what it is. You can't. Like, he. He's not writing within the confines of movie making.

[Griffin Newman]

No. And this is the most bananas thing to me, which I feel like we need to sort of acknowledge as we get deeper into everything. Obviously, the term everyone used for the Joss Whedon cut was Frankensteined. Right? Right. It's, if I dare say it, a cyborg version of a movie. Right. Where they, like, took this much human and they built all these weird robotics around and they're like, this will be normal.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

This thing will not be cursed. But I do think it is important because the framing of this now is like, he finally got to make his absolute pure vision of the movie, which I don't think is totally accurate, because there are two things, one of which you already said, Paul, which is after the response to bvs, which was largely negative. They were, at that point, I think, six weeks away from starting filming on Justice League. They were so bullish on it that they were like, we're going right in. And then the response to BVS was bad, even though it made money. But I think they felt like, we can't double down on this. So then they like, go, red alert. Terrio and Snyder rewrite this, make it brighter. Change the look of the movie. Like, you have to make this lighter. So there was already an adjustment before Snyder started filming all of the footage that finally made it into this film.

[June Diane Raphael]

Friends of mine in the press were brought on set for Justice League. They were shown. They were filming the scene where Batman and the Flash meet.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, that's the one that they push so hard.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes. And they were really pushing to the press. And Snyder included were like, look, look, you know, this one's gonna be a little lighter.

[Paul Scheer]

Don't worry.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like, you know, I know Batman versus Superman was a lot like they were.

[Paul Scheer]

Trying to sell, like Batman versus Superman was. So, I mean, and this is what I. This is what it is for to be considering when we're. If you were to look at these two comics universes, DC and Marvel, unquestionably, DC is bright, poppy, like, Boy Scout ethic, Gods. It's Gods on Earth. It's very. It's morality tales. It is a blue sky with the exception of Batman. And then Marvel exists in the real world. It is real people who have real problems on top of the fact that they are superheroes. Spider man is a kid who can't figure it out. He's really struggling. And then he gets superpowers and has to, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, now, I think also for so long, D.C. had the upper. The upper leg on the sort of bug nuts, cosmic shit. I feel like Marvel had less success with that. And a lot of the stuff's been reclaimed now, but, like, the Fourth World stuff, but even just Green Lantern, all these things from early on, it was like the Marvel heroes were grounded and DC was able to deal with, like, it's Gods, it's aliens, it's interdimensional, it's alternate realities. Things that Marvel has now caught up to that DC really nailed first.

[Paul Scheer]

When I watch these movies, it's as if the lesson learned was, okay, Nolan's Batman is all of dc. Like, in these movies, there is no real discernible difference between Gotham Metropolis and Central City. Genuinely. Like. Like. Like Central City is in the Snyder cut. When you get the. When you get to have that scene with Iris, which is an incredible introduction for Flash, and the fact that they cut that out is absurd.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Every introduction in this movie is phenomenal.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like, phenomenal is great. And 15 minutes long. Both of those things. It's both of those things.

[Paul Scheer]

But it's so helpful in understanding and putting this character in context in the.

[Griffin Newman]

Team, especially if you're not gonna take the time to do a Flash movie first. Cyborg movie first. An Aquaman movie first. Let's admit another advantage that Snyder Cut has watching it in 2021 is we've seen an Aquaman movie already.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

There's like retroactively heavy lifting done there.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then it does help that this movie in the, in the restored version, Flash and Cyborg are the two characters who get the most development and the best introductions and the clearest emotional arcs within the film itself.

[Paul Scheer]

And they benefit for the mood. The movie benefits for having a better understanding. I mean, I mean, without a doubt way for Cyborg. It's night and day in terms of, like, how much more you understand about this character's journey and arc comparatively. You know what I mean?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Cyborg is literally the heart of the movie in a way. But I mean, but it's the reason why Superman comes back. It is all the emotional, all the true, like, big hearted moments. It's not between the characters saving the day. It really is about, like the sacrifice of Joe Morton, who, look, this guy, we know if he's working in a lab, shit is gonna go wrong. I mean, we know this now from Terminator 2.

[June Diane Raphael]

Don't have him near any metal men. It's not good.

[Griffin Newman]

But on the other hand, how are you Warner Brothers? And you look at this cut and you go, first thing that has to go all the Joe Morton scenes. Like Joe Morton's in like two minutes of Joss Whedon. That guy's fucking money in the bank.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

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[June Diane Raphael]

Here's the thing, look. Hiring Joss Whedon to make a sequel to Batman versus Superman. Let's say, forget that Justice League. They literally. They make Batman versus Superman, and they're like Joss Whedon, soup to nuts. Make Justice League. That would be a bad decision. That would be a tough thing to pivot. Having him make a movie inside of a movie that was already made is a worse decision. The most insane decision is telling him. Also, it's got to be two hours long, 120 minutes, no more, no less. Which has been widely reported. They insisted on. For whatever reason.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, I will also say. I will say this like, there's something I'm a. Let's just take away the allegations right now and just talk about. I'm not trying to separate the artist from the thing. I just want to just talk about it in a pure way and go, I love Joss Whedon and what he did on Buffy. I was a big fan when I first saw the Avengers. I was like, this is good. It was not my favorite, but it was good. I was like, I like it. I really didn't like Age of Ultron. And when I saw what the Russo brothers did to Civil War, I was like, oh, that's. That's my Avengers movie. Like, that's like, that's how you do a team movie in the Marvel universe that feels like it's got the right tone. My thought was, why do you take the guy who essentially fucks up the team movie in the Marvel universe and then bring him over to fix up your problem in the DC universe? Like, oh, he. He's already proven that that's not his strong suit. Like, he messed it up. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll say this. David and I are definitely Whedon Avengers fans over Russo Avengers fans. But even still, it is very bizarre to hand that to him after Age of Ultron, which had a similarly complicated reaction to the degree that also, Whedon, like, kind of, like, steps away from Marvel and there's this, like, rejigger.

[June Diane Raphael]

He fought with the studio on that one. Whatever.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Hiring Whedon was bizarre is all I'm saying. Under any circumstances.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, it's. It's multi. On multiple levels. It makes like just the idea of bringing anyone in to do it is already going to be problematic. But somebody who's so tonally different.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Is like.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, it just speaks to the fact that they were. I think it sounds like Warner's was so panicked, right, at how hopeless and dour and dark Snyder's worldview was, that they were like, let's bring in. You know, like, you watch these two. If you watch. And I don't recommend anybody do this ever. If you watch both the Snyder cut and the Whedon cut, like, back to back, you see how there are reshoots that are like, keeping Snyder Aquaman line and then just change reshooting Batman response line just to be equipped. All Joss does is introduce, like, Buffy style, Joss Whedon style jokes, quips, you know, ironic eye rolls.

[June Diane Raphael]

You're watching the script polish, but it's in a movie, like, rather than just on a page, right?

[Griffin Newman]

He's like, you know, an infamous script doctor, you know, and punch up guy who did that for so long before he had his own success doing his own stuff. And you're like, yes. It feels like you're watching him going through the script page by page and going, what if you added this? What if you added this?

[Paul Scheer]

But it's like something that, like, Shane Black can do effortlessly for Iron Man 1. And it actually probably. It probably cements why Iron Man 1 works. And thus we have the MCU.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right.

[Paul Scheer]

But in this instance, it doesn't make sense at all.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Proof is in the pudding as far as, like, Ben Affleck in this movie. Like that. This Batman in the Snyder cut is. I'm like, oh, I like this Batman. Like, that other Batman is bizarre. It's. I don't know. I just feel like this. It's more consistent. There's. I mean, it's hard to. To have an actor do one version of the character and then the rewrite is. They're not even quips. They're out of. They're out of the voice. Like, I remember one of my friends told me that they did a punch up one time. It was a movie where aliens were in the house of this, like, young teen star. I forget the name of the movie. I would say it if I remembered it.

[Griffin Newman]

Aliens in the Attic.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It might have been Aliens. Yeah. Yes. All right, so. And yes, I think it was. And the idea was that when they shot the movie, the aliens didn't speak any discernible language. And then the studio was like, ooh, we need to now add language. Like, as if they were speaking the entire time. So everyone had to come in and, like, generate language around the movie that they were shot to not have them responding to language, which is, you know, an insurmountable feat. But that's kind of what it feels like here, where it's like, like, well, how can he, in one scene be like, the Zack Snyder Batman and then another scene. Be like the Joss Whedon. They're. They're very different characters.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it also, it feels like, you know, with most of, like, punch up jobs, you know, they bring people on right before the movie shoots to go. Can you make this any funnier?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the best and cheapest way to do it. You add the jokes in before the cameras start rolling, right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Then the two things that people tend to do after the fact if a movie isn't working, plot points are messy or you need more jokes or whatever, are. How much of this can we fix in editing and adr, Right? Because, you know, we can't change too much of it, or we only have the budget and the schedule to do, like one week of reshoots. If we could only add five scenes, what are the five scenes we need to add? Or less or more, whatever. Right. And this is like. It's like they hand it to him and he went, well, if I was there on the day, I would have done this, but obviously we can't. And they went like, no, don't pitch anything. We'll fix it in cgi. Like. Like, it was an animated movie where he was like, I can't change that now. And they were like, you can. We can bring Affleck in, put in front of a green screen. It's a year and a half later, his drinking problems have risen again. But we'll get the one line from him and then edited into a previous conversation. And you're talking about Batman feeling different, as Affleck has said. Like, he was supposed to do his solo Batman movie that he wrote and directed right after this, and he stepped down. And the story that he said recently in interviews is he showed the script to a friend and they went. He went, I don't know. Do you think I should do this? And they said, I think the script is good. I think you could make a good movie. I think if you go through this Batman thing again, you're literally gonna drink yourself to death after what happened on Justice League. And you do feel like there's. There's a very specific performance at bvs, right? And then here is like, he's a little bit responding to the negativity of bvs, and he's trying to get a little bit lighter, right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then Justice League is. The Whedon version is like watching a man who is just dead inside is regretting this. Why did I do Daredevil again? I won an Oscar. What am I doing here?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I am now an established director, by the way, trusting a guy that he worked with, Argo too. Like you feel like, okay, I've protected myself in every possible way and now I've been. Someone pulled the carpet right out from under me and. Yeah. And screwed me over.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the one other thing I want to say about the weirdness of this not being a complete vision, even still is. The plan was Chris Terrio had written two complete scripts. There was Justice League Part one and Justice League Part two. They were going to be shot back to back. And with the trepidation after BVs, they went, let's pull the brakes. Only do one now, do two later. So what we're watching now is the four hour cut of what was only supposed to be the first half of a two part movie. There's still a whole second half they never got to. And I think in some ways, like the reshoots and some re editing and effect stuff he's done, he's tried to retrofit some of the stuff he would have done in part two into this movie. But like Darkseid was not even supposed to be in this. This much. I think they added more Darkseid. He was just supposed to be like even less. And then two was Darkseid. Right. The end of one is step.

[June Diane Raphael]

He has kind of talked about there being three like movies. But yes. So I think there were definitely two.

[Griffin Newman]

Scripts ready to go.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right? They were. They had this back to back plan. They also had, you know, the Riddler was in the Bat Ben Affleck movie and he was gonna like solve the anti life equation. You know, there was a lot of like track laid that they then dynamited. But the only thing they reshot for this movie with people, obviously, and it.

[Paul Scheer]

Was, it was Jim, to be clear. It was Jim Carrey's Riddler.

[Griffin Newman]

It was, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

All the classic Jim Carrey characters coming back in the Warner Brothers canon.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[June Diane Raphael]

He had the popcorn machine mind reading thing.

[Griffin Newman]

The epilogue is the major reshoot, right? That's like substantial.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, no, no.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's the only reshoot. They shot three days to do that epilogue. Now they may have added other stuff with CG or whatever.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think that the flashback scene is. Oh, I think the flashback scene with Darkseid is a reshoot. But because it's not human act, I think it's CGI scene.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. They did a lot of CGI motion capture Y stuff off with Dark side stepping wolf. Right.

[Paul Scheer]

And they redesigned Steppenwolf. I mean. Yeah, I gave him an effects level.

[June Diane Raphael]

Pants.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. They redesigned stuff. They made the. You know, all the. And, and I will say. And I liked all of the dark side. Introducing Darkseid and letting there be a bigger bad than just Steppenwolf and the Parademons was beneficial. It made. It gave context to. To Steppenwolf and why he's doing what he's doing. Also, like in the Whedon cut, I don't understand what mother boxes are at all. And in this one, in the Snyder cut, the only reason I mostly do is because Wonder Woman does a three and a half minute exposition dump to Bruce Wayne. She's like. Well, I think all I can tell is. And then she talks for three and a half minutes based on. Exclusively, I believe, on cave painting.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

I think her knowledge, her minutes worth of knowledge is from looking at like pictographs.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I was like Themyscira. They understand. They go deep.

[June Diane Raphael]

I mean, she's an antiquities expert, damn it.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

By the way, I do want to talk about that. Like there is something. There are giveaway. There are very funny things in this movie still. Like when she is in that museum wearing what looks to me like an outfit that you might wear on a premiere. Or she's wearing like a very form fitting, like white. It just a gorgeous, like you would.

[Griffin Newman]

See, pristine, clean cut. Not the kind of thing you take to work where you restore art, where you got like a chisel and a brush.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And she's not in any. No predeter. Like there's no smock over it. There's no. There's nothing. It's just like I'm. It did make me. That is an odd choice. That is an odd choice.

[Griffin Newman]

He makes odd choices.

[June Diane Raphael]

I honestly. The thing that most surprised me in terms of when you're watching this, I honestly figured that the Whedon had added in the Wonder Woman museum rescue sequence because that felt so tacked on. And it plays better in this kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sorry. My biggest surprise, I was 100% certain that Whedon had tacked on the cyborg and Flash go grave digging and Bond sequence.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I could not believe that that was in the original cut. And not only. That's like 12 minutes and all of them are there few.

[June Diane Raphael]

Few things were surprising. But that was.

[Paul Scheer]

I thought that was surprising as well. Only because Whedon, you know, with Buff Buffy has spent so much time in graveyards. Yes. It's like one of his. It's one of his signature settings to him.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's like Frasier's recording booth in Frasier a Great athlete. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It's central perk. He just thought, this is a good central perk. Set to have some characters share funny quips that.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, good. Gunter was in there.

[Griffin Newman]

Gunter was in. He's in sn. That's in the Snider cut. That's what's so weird is Gunter is just there in the graveyard.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He fully cgi. But let's. I mean, because we. We talked a lot about the movie, like, the general sense of the movie. Let's talk about this epilogue, because that is the new footage. Like, that is this. I think what you're talking about, this idea of, like, this is throwing towards the overall vision. I think that there's a couple moves here that he is basically going, like, this is what we were gonna do. And now suck it. Like, you know, like, I think that. That, like. Or maybe making a play to be like, let me take the Justice League in my own world and now I will exist separately from this and let me go make my things. And I think you should make them exclusively for hbo. Max. But that ending. I'm gonna go in. The most suspect of Jared Leto being in this ending as the Joker. I'm gonna go in. And I gotta say, I was even, like. I was like, am I. Am I. Is it four hours and two minutes? Like, am I three hours and 15 minutes in and going, am I worn down? But I kind of like the scene.

[Paul Scheer]

It's Stockholm syndrome.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

But I like this.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I like the scene. I like the scene between Batman and Joke. Okay, let's. Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about this.

[Paul Scheer]

Well.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, here's. I just want to say something. I want to hear.

[Griffin Newman]

Griffin's talking about. This is the second to last ending in the movie. Right, Right.

[Paul Scheer]

The movie we're talking. I believe it's. Is it called Nightfall?

[June Diane Raphael]

It's the Nightmare with a K. Nightmare. Nightmare with a K. Yes, Nightmare. It's the epilogue now, because the movie ends. It fully ends. You see, every hero, you know, has rediscovered their sense of purpose. You see the Flash running. You see Superman opening his shirt, you know. Right. Like, it's ending, and then it's like, like. And 20 more minutes, you know, And. Whereas, like, I do think the movie would be better as a movie if it actually ended at the ending at Superman opening his shirt. The epilogue feels like, you say, more like Snyder kind of being like. And look, here's a bunch of stuff I had planned right in. Interested.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, big picture Plan was like, by all accounts, movie one with Steppenwolf. Right. Teeing Up Movie two, Dark side. That's the escalation.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes. Movie three is evil Superman.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like, his whole thing was. Because you see this in bvs, it's the first of the two dream sequences that then amounts to Flash showing up and saying, I'm too early. Right. Is he was so obsessed with this alternate timeline of. And he's made this clear now, but Warner Brothers shot it down. The thing was supposed to be that Batman slept with Lois Lane and Lois.

[June Diane Raphael]

Lane, Batman cuts Superman. That was his pitch. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then Superman goes apocalyptic and it creates just a horrible hellscape for everybody. So that's what he was working towards. You see that in BVs. And then I think he just was like, well, I'm never gonna get to make my other two movies unless I leave people salivating at the end of this one.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's a grand play. I mean, it does make sense. It's like he knows the movie is finished, so he tacks on Truly the next time. The next time on the end of, like, it's a really.

[Paul Scheer]

It's a teaser.

[June Diane Raphael]

He ends the Lex Luthor sequence and then the dream sequence of the future and then the Martian Manhunter saying, like, by the way, Bruce, great job. See you later.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

When was by the way? When was that, Joe? Because I remember Joe Manganiello. There was like a post that maybe.

[Paul Scheer]

Ben Affleck in the Whedon one. They established Deathstroke. It's different a little bit this way.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a lot of examples of this in the movie where having watched the two cuts pretty close together. Too close together. There are a lot of examples where it's like, oh, this wasn't reshot by Weeden. But they just chose different lines from the same scene, like.

[Paul Scheer]

Or they ADR different responses.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. But. But it is like the. The dialogue in the mangianello Eisenberg ending in the Whedon cut is entirely different. But it clearly wasn't read shots that one. The whole buildup is, it's time we build A League of Our Own. And this one, it's Batman's Bruce Wayne. Go do the business.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

And we should. And Madonna from A League of Their Own is in the scene.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. And she's. By the way, she's good.

[Paul Scheer]

Lex Luthor is like, there's no crying in villainy.

[June Diane Raphael]

He says that, right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's true. I will say that Red Letter Media did this thing that I loved where they were breaking down Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. And in the trailer of Kingdom of the Crystal skull, the Indiana Jo. The. The Shia LaBeouf Indiana Jones movie. You know, he's like, Shia Labu, like, in the trailer, yells up to indie like, you're a teacher. And he looks down, really badass. And he's like, part time, you know, like, like. And then in the movie, he says it, like, part time, like, yeah, like, it's a very. It's like the trailer has the better delivery of the line that you're like, yeah. And. And the movie, it's like. And you watch the movie, like, why did you pick that? You had it. You had. You have it. And that's what this movie feels like. It's like, well, you had it, right? Why would you. Why would you go over here?

[Griffin Newman]

That's the most surprising thing is when you watch it and you're like, oh, they had all those pieces. It's not like that was a thing he reshot. They just chose the worst takes and the worst lines to keep in. What was I gonna say, though? You have the Eisenberg Manganiello thing, which was shot at the time by Snyder. And then the other two prologues were the two things he shot new for this. Now, I did read an interview with him where he said that his original plan was he wanted to be Green Lantern at the end of the movie. And it was. First he wanted Ryan Reynolds, Hal Jordan, and then that was just like a non starter. So then it was, I want a different Green Lantern. I'll work with Warner Brothers. We can pick which character it is and who's playing them. And they went along with it for a while and then said, J.J. abrams is going to do this big Green Lantern HBO series. We want to keep that clean. Can you change it? So the Affleck side of that was shot with the assumption that they would film a Green Lantern later or do it with cgi.

[Paul Scheer]

My understanding is he. He shot a Green Lantern with a gun. He shot a Green Lantern with a gun, but he was drinking a gun. And he said, fine, if nobody. If I can't do Green Lantern, nobody can do Green Lantern.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But wait, my thought was, and why I really liked the final end reveal of the Martian Manhunter and how they seeded it in the beginning is that that character has been established throughout all of the Zack Snyder films.

[June Diane Raphael]

He's been man of Steel.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right. Which felt to me like, oh, well, that's way more interesting that Martian Manhunter has been. Hear a thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, like, I just feel like that was maybe one of those happy accidents because it makes the movie look way more complete.

[Griffin Newman]

He shot the thing with Lois and Martha during the original shoot and had storyboarded that when she walks out, turns into Martian Manhunter. And then that was cut even before he got pushed off the movie like that was. They never did the effect. So he was able to salvage that and the seeds had been planted. Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Here's my big question to you guys though. Look, I think. Well, everything we're saying here, this movie is four hours long. I think there is a three hour version of this movie that is theatrically viable. Right. Obviously Warner Brothers is never going to release a four hour movie, but you can. There's. This movie is full of sequences that you would horse trade with a studio where they're like, can we take out the Icelandic folk song? Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, you can't.

[June Diane Raphael]

Look, I'm not saying like.

[Paul Scheer]

No.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay?

[Paul Scheer]

Davis, how dare you? That's like my favorite part. My favorite part of the movie is like the Icelandic Durge.

[Griffin Newman]

She smells the sweater.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Keep, look, keep. Can I keep four of the seven slow mo sequences? Four, the seven.

[Paul Scheer]

But just like. Here's the. That's what I was going to say. Speed up any slow mo just a little bit.

[Griffin Newman]

You save 30 minutes right there.

[June Diane Raphael]

He's. He speed ramps within slow mo. He will speed. He'll go like. Anyway, sorry, go ahead.

[Paul Scheer]

Here's my question. Here's my question. Okay, okay. So every time Aquaman walks out of the ocean, like when he, when he rescues the guy off the boat, right? He rescues the guy off the boat. He brings him in and he throws him on the table. Aquaman is wearing a shirt. Where did he get that shirt? Because then when he walks, he doesn't.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Take off his boots.

[Paul Scheer]

Then when he walks out, he takes it off always. And jumps in the water. So he's got an opportunity between jumping on land to grab a shirt that he's only gonna wear while he's on land. Because then he gotta get rid of it. He does that twice.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got like drop boxes all across the plane.

[June Diane Raphael]

Shirt piles, shirts.

[Paul Scheer]

Cause he also, he doesn't leave the shirt there and be like, hey, I'm gonna pick this shirt up later. He tosses it into the ocean.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, the girl, the girls, the, the women of the town take a shirt. They take it like, they sniff it. They sniff it.

[Paul Scheer]

They sniff his sweaters.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, maybe they sit and place. But I guess my thought is, what would you rather have on a wet shirt or wet boots? Because just kick the boots off, like at a certain point, like you're walking. And I mean, I know it's rocky there. I will ask this about kind of picking some parts of it. Do you believe that the cameo in the Aquaman world was intentional? I believe it was. And the cameo I'm talking about is the drummer from the fire battle. And I'm talking about the Octopus. The Octopus got a nice close up in this. And, you know, last time we saw him, he was playing the drums.

[June Diane Raphael]

And this time we much like in the Little Mermaid how Sebastian the Crab, the court composer, is a crucial member of, like, policy making. It seems like the drumming octopus in the Aquaman.

[Paul Scheer]

David, I'm not gonna let you. I'm not gonna let you. Let you get a plug in for the recent Blank Check miniseries. It's just Disney animated films, including Little.

[Griffin Newman]

Mermaid, Hot Crustacean Band. Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yep.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And what. And one other. One other thing I want to bring up that is an odd. We talked about, like, bad choices. Amber Heard in the Weeden one. No accent.

[Griffin Newman]

This is bizarre. This is in Aquaman, no accent.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Yes. What?

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing that pushes it over the edge. Like, I was trying to do the math on this. I'm like, is it possible she shot it with a British accent? When Whedon came on, he was like, she should be American. They ADR did because the footage is shared largely. And then when Juan makes his Aquaman film, they're like, well, the one that got released, she had an American accent. So let's go with that.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, I will say this. I think her dropping the accent was the right call. I think she.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I agree, I agree.

[June Diane Raphael]

More comfortable in the part with the American accent.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Dafoe doesn't have an accent. There's no world building where we're saying it's like Star Wars. The Imperials are. That's, for the most part, that is. You know, they're played primarily by British actors, you know, with some exceptions. But there's no. Like, the Aquaman world is not. That doesn't have that same kind of thing.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no. It ends up being a funny Star wars thing where it's like, why does Princess Leia have a British accent for that one scene? And then never again, you know?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Where it's like this weird remnant of, like. It's so bizarre.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Let's talk about this epilogue, too, because, I mean, I know we keep on dancing around. So this epilogue he takes. I mean, this is, again, what I think is the masterstroke of this movie where he says. I think Zack Snyder says, hey, you know, the character that is universally hated the most in the dcu. I'm going to put him in this movie and make him palatable. Like that, to me, felt like the biggest fuck you. It's not a fuck you to Joss Whedon. It's a fuck you to, like, I don't know, every. Like, it's almost like I am the rightful heir. Like, it's like he has come home to roost by putting Jared Leto in this thing and directing him the way he does does and giving that scene between the two of them.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's say, though, this is fundamentally, for all intents and purposes, a different character. Right. Like, not only has he so thoroughly changed the look of this character, got rid of all the visual stuff, which is the easiest one, clown on an.

[June Diane Raphael]

Evil club owner or whatever, he's no.

[Paul Scheer]

Longer, like, covered in tattoos.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. He doesn't have to be damaged. And the grill doesn't look like he's a.

[Paul Scheer]

He doesn't look like he's a dj. Right. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And Leto's, like, has a different energy. He's doing a different voice. Like, it feels like Snyder going, I'm gonna just reset and give you another chance to play the Joker. Is there anything you want to do?

[Paul Scheer]

Like, he vindicated.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He saves Jared Leto in this whole mix. Like, he goes like. He's like, I'm gonna bring you back in. And in my, like, rebirth, I'm saving you. It's a very selfless act in a way.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. It is dangerous.

[Paul Scheer]

Can I ask you guys a question? In that scene in that team up that we see in this dystopian future that for all intents and purposes, would have been, I'm assuming, the next movie. And you can tell, like, you can tell how on board Ben Affleck is for the potential of what could have been simply because he shows up for all of this reshoot, he commits to doing all of these extra days to just shoot this stuff Anyway, when that team. When they kind of run through that team and Deathstrokes on that team and Joker's in there and so it's British, Mara. It is, yeah. It's a suicide squad ask. Yes, exactly. Group of heroes and villains. Was that Flash, Ezra Miller?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, it was. Okay.

[June Diane Raphael]

Just has. He has his, like, time travel armor.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That was the costume he wore in Batman v Superman.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That's how he looks in that weird dream sequence where he comes back.

[Paul Scheer]

That's what I wanted to make because I was like, are they telling. Are they. Are they intimating that this is a different Flash. But okay, that makes sense. That's fine. Okay, wait.

[June Diane Raphael]

This is the question I was kind of wanting to ask. Say this movie comes out in a three hour cut. It's this movie a little chopped down, that's all. I'm sorry about the Icelandic folk song, Jason, but I'm just saying, like, Zack Snyder, justice.

[Paul Scheer]

Still you're cut. David.

[June Diane Raphael]

Look, just give me a second here. Comes out in 20 seconds. 2017. I think this movie would have gotten fairly bad reviews and I think it would have.

[Griffin Newman]

I think, I think similar box office.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, I think that people in 2017 would have been like, no, we don't like this tone. Like, we already told you, you're doubling down on it. Like, there would have been a little more pushback. It's setting up a future apocalypse. Then the Flash is going to have to travel through time to save it, which is something Marvel literally does. Like right around the same time their universe. I think people would have rejected it. I think the time, you know, the sort of Snyder weird kind of transformation into an underdog. Same with Affleck. Same with, like a lot of the people in this movie. Like, people kind of have come around on Henry Cavill a lot more.

[Griffin Newman]

The Ray Fisher stuff, obviously.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, there's just a lot of room for this movie.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, exactly. It's so crazy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I went in also going like, I'm not a fan of like, I did not like Batman v Superman. I watched Justice League. I found it to be boring. Like, and I was. And we picked it for this podcast before it came out because it was like, it will be an interesting conversation on whatever, like, on this level.

[June Diane Raphael]

Or it was terrible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right, right, right. But so I guess I'm saying is, like, I did go in maybe leaning more towards critical, less towards. Like, I was like, how could this possibly be good? How could it be good? But then how I saw it was good. I agree with you, though. I don't think this hits in the theater.

[June Diane Raphael]

But I didn't go in 2017.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

In 2017.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Here's what I'll say. I'll say on top of that, yes, 2017, one year into the Trump presidency. Like, not even, like, are we gonna want this dystopian worldview? And the answer is categorically no, we don't want, like, this. I think the only reason any of us are reacting positively to it at all is simply because it's an improvement on something that was legitimately, unintelligibly, very bad.

[Griffin Newman]

The framing helps this movie in so Many ways. Not just when we're seeing it. How much emotionality has built up in most multiple different storylines of people working on the movie. The, you know, warranted Whedon backlash, like all these sorts of things. Also, it's literally, I just think the way he presents this movie, the fact that it's on HBO Max after a year of lockdown we all haven't seen. Which is one of the only reasons I really think this movie got to be made in this form.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

100%. They had it. They had, they had a multi. Million. Yeah, right.

[Griffin Newman]

That they were like, we need to drive subscribers to HBO Max. And also, we can't produce that much. We're willing to put $70 million into something that will function like a blockbuster. Whereas before, I think we would have been lucky if we had gotten a release that was more like the Richard Donner Superman 2 cut. Where it's like, oh, we're giving you an indication of what it could have looked like, but none of this is really finished.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. What I feel like, though, is whether it was in 2017. Right now we're. You're right, we're all predisposed to look more favorably on this in 2017. I would have been so disappointed because for me, this, this doesn't look like my understanding of the Justice League. This, These are movies like, like, like it's. No. What's. What's absolutely categorically true in all of these instances is every time they are showing themyscira, it's fantastic because Zack Snyder's style works. Cause it looks like 300.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

It works so well in that hand to hand armored kind of individualized combat. And once they get into all of the cities, all of the destruction, all of the death, all of the grief and mourning. Once, once all of these characters are killing people, they are responsible for near genocides. These are, these are, these are. The characters are so dark, dystopian and suffused with his Ayn Randian kind of nihilistic worldview that like, I don't. I didn't want it then. And I'm certain I wouldn't have wanted even a coherent three hour cut of this. I would have been like, yeah, the movie made sense, but I didn't enjoy it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But can I maybe. Let me offer this. I think we also. And again, the 2017 version, I agree with everything we were saying, but I also believe that, that I don't know. And this is a weird thing to say, maybe so jump on me if I'm saying it the wrong way I think it can be a great filmmaker who also is better served in a world like hbo. Max. Like, you don't have to. And there's something about that where I'm like Damon Lindelof doing the Watchmen. He could only tell that story on hbo. I love the Watchmen. But that's not a movie, right? And this is not a movie. It's. It is, but it's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not the framing. Also literally putting in like the chapter titles, having it be so egregiously long, putting it in a weird aspect ratio. Like, it does feel like all of this stuff is sort of laying out the track of, like, you need to view this differently. This is the very weird, specific analogy. I kept on thinking about watching this movie and being so surprised that I was sort of being won over by it. And I do want to say, I mean, to Jason's point, like, a thing I just categorically hate in this movie is just how fucking gray it is. Like, watching the Whedon cut, I was like, this is the absolute worst execution of. More what I would want a Justice League movie to be versus this movie, which is like the best execution of what I don't necessarily want out of a Justice League movie, but I have to respect it more. And you look at like the original trailers for Justice League, the color timing is right in the middle. And then when Whedon came on, brightened, everything saturated the colors. And then when Snyder took back over, it went back down to grayscale. I hate that Steppenwolf is gray, that all the Parademons are gray, that most of the team is gray, that they fight in an underground like, pipeline that's gray. And the final battle happens in a city that's gray. Like, it's just right.

[June Diane Raphael]

Whereas the WI movie, it's a city that's red, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Like they.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. And Superman puts on a suit that is black, right? Black with a gray.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

How would you change that? Why would you change that fucking suit? Like, why would you put it. Like, it's such a great moment. And yeah, it speaks to the character I love. Look, I like all these characters more, but again, I think it all just goes to. He is telling a large scale HBO miniseries. He's telling a different thing.

[Paul Scheer]

Not for nothing, they're about to release a black and white version of the Snyder king.

[Griffin Newman]

Once again, I'm sort of just like, I guess that's better. Like, I just want him to go all the way with all this fucking shit.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Do your thing. Like, do that. I think we like, he. They're trying to like Warner Brothers. It seems like Warner Brothers is putting people in a box, and what they.

[Paul Scheer]

Have found is a motherbox.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

A motherbox is that it doesn't work. It's like when you put Todd, like, let Todd Phelps make his Joker. You didn't want to make that. It gets Academy Awards. And I'm not talking about the quality of that movie or whatever, but you want, you know, you. You. You make your Aquaman, and you let everyone. And I think Margot Robbie, as much as. Is it Cathy Yan who made Birds of Prey? I think Margot Robbie is so held onto that character as much as I think they take control and they're like, this is the story that we want to tell. And everything starts to feel like there's more ownership. And that's when Marvel works. Like, Marvel works with ownership. It doesn't work with. This is what Marvel's doing. We need to copy this. It needs to be two hours. It needs to be that.

[Griffin Newman]

This is another framing thing that I think helps this movie A versus watching it four years ago, Right. Which is DC has, I think, very wisely decided their approach is, we're gonna do the anti Marvel. We cannot do this unified thing. What we're gonna do is anything goes. We'll have five versions of the same character between TV and animation and movies at the same time. It doesn't matter, right? Like, let's just own the variety of these characters, which. It's a thing like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, if it's like comic books, right?

[Griffin Newman]

You go on the shelves and it's like they're four different Batman titles. They're all written by different people and different artists, and one of them's for kids, and one of them is, like a Vertigo title. Whatever. Yeah. Like, do that. Throw caution to the wind. I think I was bummed out with these Snyder movies when they came out, because I was like, these are going to be the versions of Superman and Batman for a generation. Aside from the fact that it felt kind of like Gatekeepy to make these versions of these characters that are fundamental, not for kids, right? Like, that are so in your face. Like, this is intense, right? This is not for fucking kids. And not only that, I wish it was rated R. I fucking resent babies.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think you're really right.

[Paul Scheer]

That's. That's the bummer with, you know, Batman V. Superman is like, Batman and Superman are responsible. Are murderers.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? And they're.

[Paul Scheer]

Batman and Superman are straight up murderers.

[Griffin Newman]

They're also, like, sad assholes.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. And they're and they're. They are all of them confronting the issues of adults.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Paul Scheer]

They are all confronting the issues of adults or gods.

[Griffin Newman]

They're also movies that feel like, fundamentally they would be boring to children. Like, it's not far above them or scary.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But now you watch this, like, five years later, and you're like, well, this is Zack Snyder's Justice League. This is real estate. It's not. It's not.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The variety is making it, maybe. So maybe that's what it is. Like, we have now accepted that you can have the hilarious Harley Quinn. Quinn animated show. You can have all these things that. Yeah. So funny. And that can live. Yeah. Maybe that is also the case. It's, like, huge. This is just gonna be like Zack Snyder. And I think what happened was. And maybe for better or for worse, like Zack Snyder's vision was influencing Suicide Squad was like, everyone had to buy into this world. And the minute they broke with that, they've had success. But you can also live in Zack Snyder's world. But he's not the Feige, because there isn't a Feige. There doesn't need to be a Feige.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the other thing, right? Like a. There's more diversity in how these characters get represented in different mediums. He's no longer claiming squatters rights over. I get to be the only person doing Superman and Batman and everything. And then the second thing is, the movies have broken out of this so much that you're like, this is no longer casting a shadow over everything. If Shazam can exist and be that cartoonish, then I don't care if Snyder makes his movies this bleak, right?

[Paul Scheer]

But.

[Griffin Newman]

But the thing I keep thinking about is I have a friend named Christopher Compton who has been writing this, like, fantasy universe since he was, like, 10 years old. It's what he would write in school when he was bored. And it's like, all, like, his whole life experience, his relationship to his parents and stuff. He's just been working on it for, like, decades, right? And once a year, he'll, like, have a party during the summer. I just follow me here for five seconds where he, like, stands in front of a captive audience and he tries to explain the universe as much as he can, right? And people go like, so who's that person? And he goes like, okay. And he's like, chain smoking, right? And he's sort of, like, gesturing, like, there's a map. And I got invited to one of these once, and I said to my friend, like, this thing's fucking amazing. He has to write a book and like, it's impossible. He can't do it. This doesn't exist in any linear narrative form. This is this like wide ranging sort of like, idea that.

[Paul Scheer]

So it's an oral history.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an oral history of a universe that doesn't exist. And fundamentally the only format it can exist in is this guy in a backyard chain smoking, trying to conquer like 10% of it. Like, every time he does this, only 10% of it gets covered. And it's. It's decided by what people are asking him to focus on. Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, I love this.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's a purity of it where you're just like, the only way this can exist is in this. There's no way you could wiggle this into a book.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Or it's like, it has to be like. It has to be this explosion over multiple books and thousands of pages. And, you know, it's even like Tolkien with the similarion or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

And this movie is the same thing where it's like, it's still only one third of the movie he wanted to make at twice the length of what DC wanted for one movie. And the thing doesn't really function like a movie. It doesn't have traditional narrative proposals.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I mean, did any of us watch it straight through?

[Griffin Newman]

I could not.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, no, I did, but I. I zoned out for the last 45 minutes.

[Paul Scheer]

And then rewatched every time there was a chapter break. I took that opportunity to stop, go do something, whatever, come back. Started again.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I fell asleep sometimes. I started watching it late at night. I fell asleep, but like, I fell asleep because there is like, I was watching it late at night, but like, it does, I think, require like a reset. And I think those breaks are in there for a reason. Because. Yeah, yeah, it can get like. I know this is like we're saying. I'm saying two things out of the side of my mouth. It's like it can get numbing at a certain point too, because it is like, it is a sort of. But I think the refreshing.

[Griffin Newman]

I.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

When I watch it more like what you said, Jason, where I took breaks in between chapters, I was like, oh, I can. I can enjoy this 40 minutes. It's basically enjoying like three 40 minute movies. And it feels incredibly digestible that way, but almost insurmountable in like, okay, more slow mo. More this, more music, more that. Yeah, right.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

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[Paul Scheer]

Do you feel like that hate? I mean, I'm just, I'm curious because I'm. I haven't looked at it or anything. But do you feel like that hate is. Is basically hatred towards why we have the Snyder cut? More about how the toxic fandom kind of needled and cajoled and threatened and bullied its way into getting this movie released? Or is it. I watched this. I hated it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is like people hate the introduction of the Flash scene.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, see, that was. I was blown. Okay, so that's a perfect examp. I was blown away that they took that scene out. The introduction to the Flash. Also I want to. Because David has it as his background. So I want to call it out. This movie fully rips off the idea of pocket dogs that I pioneered that I pioneered on the TV show the League. The Flash takes a hot dog out of mid air, puts it in his pocket for later. That is a pocket dog. You're welcome. Zack Snyder. I guess you can steal from the best. But that scene is such a good, incredible set piece to introduce us to this new character. I was blown out that they took it out.

[June Diane Raphael]

You've got also Kiersey Clemons as Iris.

[Paul Scheer]

West was amazing as Iris.

[June Diane Raphael]

Very nice little portrait.

[Griffin Newman]

Who is now coming back.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I mean there were like she's stories last week. She is coming back for the Flash movie. But Crudup is not weird.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, is that right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Okay. I don't know what happened there. Yeah. But what I was gonna say is like, here's a great explanation of why some people hate this movie. Right. Snyder is just so specific in what he does. It's one of the reasons I rewatched dawn of the Dead this last week because that's very much my favorite movie of his. But that's the one movie where it's like. Like it's a James Gunn script. It's got all this James Gunn in it. And he was very much a director for hire, trying to show off and do a snazzy job. But it's not a movie that's in the same way, as, I would argue, pretty much every other film in his filmography. So reflective of his worldview and all of his aesthetic interests. Right. And I just feel like when you make choices at this specific, it's going to piss some people off, which it generally has for me. I just go like, this guy's not my flavor. Right. But you get to a scene like that, which is, like, really good in and of itself, is really kind of elegant character development, introduction. But, like, you can start pulling apart threads of just like. And this is a thought I kept on having. The guy fucking loves slo mo. Right? He just thinks everything looks cooler in snow. Slo mo. He cannot resist, but use it anytime.

[Paul Scheer]

He also uses Snowmo.

[Griffin Newman]

He uses Snowmo as well. Well, which is when he puts snow into the movie.

[Paul Scheer]

There's just. There's just inexplicably snow inside of the set pieces, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But you realize, like, okay, strategically, if you've decided that the way you're going to visualize the Flash's powers is that he goes into slow motion, right. That everything is slowed down around him, you have the lightning, then maybe don't use slo Mo the rest of the movie. Movie. Maybe that's the visual language you've decided on. That's the visual power set for this character. Maybe you can't do it every time Connie Nielsen fucking takes her sword out.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, then what you have then is essentially what you know, and they cheat it. But any sequence that has slow mo as a part of it, in which the Flash is also inside that sequence, I believe the Flash should appear as though he's either at a complete standstill or he should be invisible.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

He should appear to be actually at a complete standstill because of the double combination of. The visual language of the Flash is slow motion and the language of the film is slow motion. So it should appear as though he's just standing stock still.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's why it is easy to hate this movie, because you start pulling at any one thread like this, and it all just kind of completely falls apart.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, I guess you're right.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, it's like that idea that at least can only talk to each other if they create an air bubble around themselves so that they can use their vocal cords. Wait, what? You know, so they.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Which they dumped for Aquaman. Wisely. Like, there's stuff like that that they dumped for. There's the thing. There's certain. Like, there's this moment. I saw it sort of going around on Twitter, and it is hilarious. When Superman Returns, Snyder cuts to the cop pulling his gun. Like, going like, wait a second. Where I'm like, is your plan. One, why are you pulling a gun? Two, your plan is to shoot Superman? Like, you know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. You literally, literally are the security guard guarding Superman's memorial. So you would arguably know more about Superman. Anyone, like, yeah. So you also understand that he has these powers that are pretty amazing.

[Paul Scheer]

He has people make choices every step. Everybody, every character makes choices that are. So when Joe Morton, like, when he and Cyborg are having their kind of back and forth, and Joe Morton is like, don't you understand? I've given you all of this power. I've given you all this access. There's so much you can do. You've barely scratched the surface of what you could do. He says, you are in. You have access to the entire nuclear arsenal. I was like, wait, what?

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay, why?

[Paul Scheer]

Why, Wait, Joe Morton, why did you do that? You should not have this angry teenager. This kid is very unstable right now.

[Griffin Newman]

Based on what you've put in parental locks on there.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, by the way, speaking about, like, losing your shirt and putting a shirt on, Cyborg is dropping that sweatshirt off and on, like, how many Gotham sweatshirts does he have? Hoodies? Does he have.

[June Diane Raphael]

There is a sequence in this movie that, if you're talking about this as being a 50, 50 thing, where Cyborg sees a poor family in need at the ATM and uses his Cyborg powers to give them money. And I've seen people say, like, this was one of my favorite parts of the movie. I love that this was included. And I've seen people say, like, that was so, so dumb. What the hell is going on in that sequence? And I kind of came down on both sides. Or, like, on one side. I kind of. I just generally liked, obviously, that this movie actually gives Cyborg an arc and lots to do. And like, you say, he's kind of the heart of the movie and his whole relationship with everyone is very crucial. But at the same time, I'm also like, wait, he can redistribute wealth? Are we.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Why even care about Steppenwolf? Just work on that, right? Don't even go to fucking Moscow or wherever. Just wait a second. Cyborg, how powerful Are you?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, it really does. It makes us understand though, that, like, I'm. I guess what we're to understand is like, he's still just a teenager, but.

[June Diane Raphael]

And so he's like, you know, he's dipping his toe.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Are you saying that it's easier? Well, the movie says it is easier for Cyborg to redistribute wealth than to fix Batman's plane.

[Griffin Newman]

Correct.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Because that one takes a lot longer.

[Griffin Newman]

Or to fix a personal tape recorder.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, there's stuff. But then there's stuff like there's an arc for Batman's gauntlets in this movie. A whole arc spanning hours of the movie. There's stuff like that that I kind of have to applaud. The four hour maximalist ridiculousness of that. But I can also hop over the line and be like, right, that. That, that's dumb. You know, like, I can see both arguments on this.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's another thing. He puts two Nick Cave songs in the movie, both of which have lyrics that seemingly describe what is happening on screen. Like, I remember reading a Scorsese interview where he was like, when I pick a song, it's about adding something that the scene isn't otherwise. Communicating. And then this movie has a scene where Lois Lane is going to the memorial site for Superman. And the lyrics of the song are, they said the gods would outlive us, but they were wrong.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, I guess, like, are you. Do you think that because he's a, you know, comes from a music video background that he is going, I want this Nick Cave song. And then writes to the Nick Cave song. Or does he. Or, or does he do like. Because he's not writing.

[June Diane Raphael]

He's a needle drop guy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's a needle drop guy.

[Griffin Newman]

And so he's a corny motherfucker. I mean, this is one of the reasons why it's like, you know, you. You really got to reckon with his work. It's either like very much your thing, very much not your thing, or you got to do what the four of us did, which is really try to work with it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm a 5050 Zack Snyder. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Paul Scheer]

And then I'm like, I'm out. I'm like, I'm hard pressed to find a Zack Snyder movie that I like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I like Army. I like the zombie movie. I like a lot of man of Steel.

[June Diane Raphael]

I do too.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, especially the first. The first half of it is really very good. And then, yeah, I like that. I like this and I like 300. Like, those are Those. If I, those are like my 300.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't like 300.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like I saw it once.

[Paul Scheer]

None of those were.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm not, I'm not going back to 300. I wonder if I went back and saw it now what I would feel. I think it's the Avatar effect, which was like the first time I saw Avatar. Like, whoa, this is cool in 3D.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Avatar rips.

[Paul Scheer]

Again. I'm going to be the lone dissenting opinion that is like, I'm pretty sure, like I couldn't tell. Like there, there isn't a movie who's has a starker difference between box office or cumulative money made and, and like invisible cultural footprint.

[Griffin Newman]

David and I talk about it.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, this is, this is a, this is a movie that doesn't exist constantly, I bet. Is it right.

[Griffin Newman]

His newborn baby. A baby navi onesie so he can dress up his daughter like a baby navi complete with tail.

[Paul Scheer]

But does it. Did you have to buy a real one or did you have to make.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

One of your own?

[Griffin Newman]

I bought it from the Disney Store.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The Disney Store. Like by the way, I've been to Navi at Animal Kingdom. There is more. Oh, you know, the puppets.

[Paul Scheer]

Pandora.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You've been to Pandora? Yes. And, and it, it was by the way, one of the best amusement park rides I've ever been on in my life compared to one of the worst.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Speaking of also like the corniness of him. I will say that the character I probably have the biggest issue with is Flash. Like Flash to me feels to like a character that is like. I feel like it's a non funny person being like this is my funny character. And at certain points it's a little bit too much. But at the same time, at the end of the movie, I kind of felt like I, I have a hard relationship with it.

[Paul Scheer]

I think it's hard inside of this movie. Which is to be very clear, humorless, dour, sullen, grief ridden. Every character is dealing with essential traumas that have happened to them. Every single cut. When they cut, they cut to another character who has experienced loss or is in the midst of a personal catastrophe. Every single one of them. Right. And so when you. Ezra Miller really is the. The Flash is the only per. His dad's in jail, which is bad. We. That's like, that is a trauma for killing his mom. But he, at the very least they try and structure him like he's a kid. He, you know, in the Snyder cut, there's a girl. There's like. And he, he, he has Barely used his powers. He really is. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, they're simultaneously. They're putting so much on this character because, like, the Flash is the only like, you know, a list DC hero who is funny, I would argue. Right, right. Whereas a lot of the Marvel characters are funny.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm sorry, Hawkman is hilarious.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, but that's like. That's like. If you get him at a bar at 3 o'clock in the morning, he doesn't say that shit publicly.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, behind closed doors, Hawkman is the funny guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, but they're like DC characters like Booster Gold and like, who are funny, but they're not. The gods are very solemn and self serious. Flash has always been the one character that's kind of funny. Ezra is the only actor in this film with any sort of comedic background. Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So it's like, I feel like they're simultaneously putting the weight on this one character to both be their Spider man and their Tony Stark. Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just overstuffed. And like, sometimes the character strains from them putting all of that. Like, you need to be the fun emotionally relatable.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And I think that we didn't try to do that from momoa. I think Whedon tried to like create this other version of Aquaman that was like less of a loner and more like. Yeah. And that. And that was not. That was not well.

[Paul Scheer]

And. And. And Whedon's Flash is like like an. A coward at like, he's like too scared.

[June Diane Raphael]

He needs to be like, coached through the set pieces. From what I remember.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

In the set piece, he's like, I. I can't do this. And they're like. And Batman has to be like, save one person.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right?

[Paul Scheer]

And he's like, what do you mean? Just save one person. You know? And it's like, well, no. God, that movie, you know, like stupid. It's so dumb. But it's. No, no, no, but it's really true. It's so dumb because it. And it really takes. Takes agency away from the Barry Allen character because, you know, we've seen him participate. We've seen it.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like the introduction.

[Paul Scheer]

He might just be green.

[Griffin Newman]

Is him saving one person. And then in the weed and cut, it's an hour into the movie, him saying, I don't know how to save a single person.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, yeah. And. And I think that there's something about, like, it's. It's tricky. The Whedon cut has like two sequences where they're. They're describing what they're gonna do when they get to Russia. And this movie, obviously, way longer. But I understood what they were doing in a much cleaner sense in this film than I did in the. In the Whedon version of it, where it was like, also, like. I don't know. I mean, I just. Just to say, it's like the Whedon.

[Griffin Newman]

Version'S building popsicle stick bridges in order to cut out 40 minutes in between two points. Like, can you. Joss, can you write one scene that enables us to skip over all of this?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And the Snyder cut takes that 40 minutes that Whedon cut out and makes it 90 minutes.

[Griffin Newman]

He doubles it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Paul Scheer]

He doubles it. He doubles it, and he shows you how everybody gets to every location. Like, literally.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Paul Scheer]

And if you Every.

[Griffin Newman]

If. If you hate Snyder, which, like, I'm. I'm with Jason, I was, like, predominantly out on Snyder. And now I feel like after this and rewatching everything, I've begrudgingly come to, like, a 50, 50 state with him where it's. It's like I got to just respect the thing he does, even if it's not my thing to a certain degree. But I do feel like if you don't like him, it is probably. It feels incredibly oppressive to watch four hours of this.

[Paul Scheer]

I wonder if these weren't characters that I do know. I wonder if these were just movies, if I would. If I would find more enjoyment out of them, if these were just stories of gods and. Or whatever. Like. Yeah, let me be clear. Like. Like. Like Zack Snyder is an incredibly compelling visual stylist. You know, like, he's not a bad filmmaker. I don't. I don't like his worldview or his point of view. And so the movies don't tend to. To resonate with me, but I still like them. It's like he's straight out of the Christopher Nolan school of impeccable filmmaking. But ins. Like, Tenet, for me, felt hollow, you know, but. But so gorgeous to watch. I loved. I loved watching Tenet, but I was like, what. What story did I tell?

[Griffin Newman]

Sounds like you could use a temporal pincer movement.

[Paul Scheer]

A temporal pincer movement. Oh, brother. That's Speaking of another speedster.

[June Diane Raphael]

Look, here's the thing I've been thinking about with. With Snyder, with his three DC movies, because I like. Like a lot of man of Steel, I love the Krypton stuff. I struggle with certain things in it. I still don't really understand why he couldn't rescue Kevin Costner from a tornado. Like, there's certain things in that movie where I'm like, I get that you're building to a moment here, but I just. I can't handle the logic of screenwriting.

[Griffin Newman]

Confounded story decisions in that movie.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, and Batman vs Superman, which the ultimate cut or whatever it's called, does improve. I agree, Griffin. But still, that movie is about people making really stupid decisions constantly. Like, because Batman has to fight Superman. So you're kind of watching both Batman and Superman be dumb, and you're like, will you guys just have a conversation, for crying out loud? Like, you can figure this out in two minutes. Instead, you have to do all this bullshit. And then Martha, like, you know, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, that movie only works if you view it through the prism of. I'm supposed to hate both of these characters, right?

[June Diane Raphael]

And then in Justice League, no one is stupid. That is my point. There is no longer anyone burdened by ridiculous plot contrivance. It's like, look, guys, we got to come together. There's a Steppenwolf. You know, like, it's a much simpler.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I feel like he got the note. After Batman v Superman, it evolved, like, in a. In a way. Like. And I don't know. Like, obviously you said it was, like, shooting very quickly afterwards, but on set, even I feel like they made some choices that. That when he shot it, that helped make things make sense. I will say I was confused when, like, I get Superman fighting Wonder Woman and Aquaman, and even the Flash sequence is awesome. Like, that sequence between Superman and the Flash. So cool. But when he fires his, you know, his laser eyes on Batman there, like, what has he got there that's gonna protect his arms from.

[Paul Scheer]

He's got power absorbing gauntlets.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Sorry.

[Paul Scheer]

Jeremy Irons. Jeremy Irons made them for him.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So I. I guess I missed that detail. And now when you say gauntlets, now I'm pulling it all together.

[Paul Scheer]

You might have been sleeping.

[June Diane Raphael]

The one thing Whedon added that I think was logical is that Whedon adds that it is an active decision to bring Lois into that scenario to calm Superman down. Whereas in the Snyder cut, she just kind of is hanging out and then.

[Paul Scheer]

He sees she's in the neighborhood.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right? Which just. That feels like classic, you know, script polishing thing, where Whedon's like, this should be an active rather than a passive decision. That feel. That's the only change I noticed. I just wanted to shout it out. It's different between the two, where I'm like, I think the thing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, no, it makes sense. I Wanted to read this quote that I thought was interesting. So Joss Whedon just talked about why he added in the fa. Because we could argue that the family in Russia is one of the biggest things that Joss Whedon adds in. And so Joss Whedon says, for him, the most important thing is for. What is it like for the people on the ground? That's always gonna be important to me. Like, there's Hawkeye helping people off the bus. You have to have someone who works on ground level who's taking care of the smaller stuff. And he's talking about this as far as, like, what he added into Age of Ultron, which is very similar. Which is like, they have a lot of helping people and the Sokovians.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. And so, yeah, so, you know, he said, like, basically, he brought that Sokovian attitude into Justice League. Cause he felt like he's like, I shot three days just tracking civilians on the ground. Because I wanted to see, you know, like, real devastation. But I also like a movie this big. I don't care about it. Like, I don't care about it at all.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a thing I agree with conceptually, that does not work in execution at all. And perhaps if you were designing that to be part of the movie from the ground up, it would work. But in its form, it's just like, this is so clearly shoehorned in.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It works in the boys. When the boys is built around that idea on some level. Right. Like a normal person who's been affected. Or even that. Like, one shot. That Lindsay.

[Griffin Newman]

Lizzie Kaplan. The Marvel. One shot.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, yeah, the Lizzie Kaplan did. It was like, oh, well, this is interesting. This is like. But you almost need to. Almost. That's an island. It's not like, at the climax. I feel like that's the problem. Problem in my mind.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, the thing in Batman vs Superman that I like is that opening sequence where you're seeing man of Steel from the ground. And it's the sort of, like, apocalyptic 9, 11, you know, thing. And that's where Ben Affleck. Batman, is getting so mad. And you're like, okay, okay. This is very powerful. But then most of that movie is Lex Luthor being like, I heard Superman doesn't like you. And Batman's like, what? I'll punch him. You know, like, you're like, why is. Is Lex Luthor getting over on you like this?

[Paul Scheer]

It's literally like. It's like gossip. It's high school gossip. It's absurd. But I agree with you. The extended cut of Batman vs Superman, just like the Snyder cut proves that if you give Snyder a long enough, you know, give him a long enough runtime, the movie will just make more sense and it will trick you into thinking it was more satisfying. I think, right. I think that if you put more.

[June Diane Raphael]

Time in, I think it's magic.

[Paul Scheer]

I think it's a magic trick. You give it more time, but it makes more sense. So when you look at it, you're like, well, I, I understand it at least like when I watched the original cut of Batman vs Superman or the Whedon cut of Justice League partially. What, what was. What's so difficult about those movies is there is an inherent tension based on what is missing. Making the movies, not really make the movies are asking you to do too much work. Work and as a result are unsatisfying. And these, because they're doing more work for you, feel more satisfying. And you mistake that. I'm, you know, you can mistake that for them being better. And they are just better constructed. But like I said before, they are better constructed like brutalist architecture that like if, if I saw it in Russia, I would be like, wow, that's an impressively. Right. That's an impressively solid concrete slab of a building.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but it's like.

[Paul Scheer]

But you know what? I would love more windows. I would like more windows to let more light in. I don't want to live in that building, you know, and that's what it is.

[Griffin Newman]

The buy in on this, on this thing is huge. Right. And it essentially asks like, you got to just check your reservations at the door. You got to be pot committed. Because you ask like, Paul, why do 50% of people hate this? It's because if you're not really giving it a chance and you come in with your like my taste, you don't.

[June Diane Raphael]

Have to do nothing has to.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's like if, if you're coming in looking at it askance, you will find 15 things a minute that just boggle them. Like in the sequels we talked about where Cyborg starts to see that he can manipulate the financial markets. The like pretentious self seriousness of Snyder combined with shit. Like he feels the need to visualize that by showing a CGI bull, oh my God, wrestling up bears. So you understand he also does the same.

[Paul Scheer]

Doesn't he also do the same? Does he do the same for like political parties or something where there's a.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Lot of weird imagery in that background? Although I did like the way that you got into his mindscape. But then I Would also say that there's a way that he treats these characters. And look, I am more of a Marvel person. I probably in my DC world, when I was a kid, I read a little bit more Superman. Then I really read a lot more Bat. And so I can't speak to the character of Wonder Woman. I will say this. Watching that opening sequence of her in the bank, that I thought was an awesome sequence. Like a very cool. Better than anything in Wonder Woman 84. Like that mall sequence. And what. Like, if that was whatever. I liked that sequence. I did find it confusing that she immediately. That she does murder them. She does murder all those people and then goes up to that kid and goes, well, you can be whatever you want. It is like, oh, my understanding of Wonder Woman is not that she is this kind of a murderer. But again, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

[Paul Scheer]

But in. I think in Zack Snyder's universe, they all kill, right? Like, they all kill in this world. Like, that's part of the language of. I mean, like the. You know. And that is what. Again, if you're playing by the. If you're playing by the rules inside of Zack Snyder's universe, then. I agree with David, what you were saying earlier, the opening of the extended cut of Batman v Superman, which is this like the movie opens with like 10 minutes of what is. What might as well be raw footage of September 11th.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right.

[Paul Scheer]

You know what I mean? It is, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's.

[June Diane Raphael]

It is so driving around Metropolis is being ruined.

[Paul Scheer]

Driving around Metropolis in a Jeep in a very product placement Jeep while tens of thousands of people are dying inside of the buildings that are being destroyed by the Kryptonian fight between Michael Shannon and Superman. Right. Michael Shannon. Is that right?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. Michael Shannon played himself in those movies. No, he played himself.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

No, he didn't play. Yeah, that was the secret. Everybody thought he was gonna be Zod and he was just Michael Shannon.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Even more intimidating, honestly.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, exactly. Terrifying.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. His superpower comes from the stage.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing, though. It's like as much as he has this sort of like complicated, big picture vision of the thing that cannot be reduced to a tidy two hour package. Snyder, for me, is fundamentally a filmmaker who thinks about what is the coolest thing I could do at this moment. Whether it's a story decision, a visual decision, a tonal thing, whatever, it. And he doesn't really care about those things butting up against each other in a way that sort of works against itself, you know?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And I mean, In a weird way, he's saying, I think, you know, as Marvel is exploring the multiverse, I think we're on the precipice of that opening up in a much larger way. And I think Flashpoint, the Flash movie that they're making with where Michael Keaton is coming back as Batman, it looks like DC is opening up the multiverse. And the way that they're gonna be, I think, tying all their worlds together is by saying anything can happen. There's multiple worlds and all this sort of stuff. I think that Zack Snyder kind of is reinviting himself into the party and going, this is where I'm gonna. My multiverse is this. I'm gonna exist in this world where I can live by my own rules and it can look cool. And that's. I don't know. I think it's a very interesting. I think you're right. I think it's like his ideas, like.

[Paul Scheer]

They could have a version. There could be a situation in the future where Zack Snyder makes the Nightmare.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Movie. And it's not. It's just we're out at a certain point. If Flashpoint kind of gives us the multiverse, then we are. We have the opportunity to not have there be a status quo.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, every. The Snyder's thing can be in just Snyder's thing. It can be. Everything can be siloed in its different universe. And they can mix if they want, I guess. I don't know. I'm curious how they're gonna. How they're gonna approach this. It could be very interesting.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, now he's already talking about sequel. This is the Monday after it's been released that we're recording this. And he's already saying, well, now, yeah, I guess people want me to make a sequel. And so that might be something that we see the thing.

[June Diane Raphael]

I never would have predicted that this thing would exist. When the first, you know, Snyder cut talk started, I was very much like, there's no such thing as a Snyder cut. Sure, he may have had an assembly cut of a movie, but, like, that's not the same thing. And I never would have predicted that Warner Brothers would pony up 70 million bucks to let this thing drop on streaming, essentially. I would never imagine they would have to pony up an additional $300 million. God knows how much fucking money you would have to pay to get Affleck back, Cavill back, you know, like, yeah, you know, but never say never. I guess at this point has to be the. You know, even though, like, Ray Fisher is calling for like CEOs of Warner Brothers to step down and like T.A. nehisi Coates is writing a black Superman movie for J.J. abrams. But, like, it still could occur.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

All these things can exist. And I think, I guess the way I feel about it is, regardless of how you feel about Zack Snyder in this film, I think I'm gonna butcher this name. So, please, all of you are much smarter than me. What's that movie? It's Kona, Quatsi or Coyaanisconci.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. You can view this movie. Like, you can view that movie where it's like, just zip back.

[Paul Scheer]

Do you mean stoned? I mean, do you mean stoned? You should view it stoned.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But in a way, yes. Yes, in a way. Like, just like if you take your functioning brain off and just want to look at like some purely beautiful visuals, see some things, like, I think this movie does work on a, on a base level. Just like I think you could be. I mean, I felt that at certain points, it's kind of swept up in.

[Griffin Newman]

It to follow Jason's analogy. It's almost like you gotta just kind of respect brutalist architecture, even if it is not your thing. So maybe just like walk by it, take a look at it, go, huh, that is wild that someone wants to make a building that way and that this much work was put into constructing a building that way. Way. And then you think to yourself, glad I don't live there or work there, on about my day.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's kind of how I feel like this is not, these are not movies that I will ever return to the way that I return to. There are Marvel movie, like, I have rewatched, you know, Thor, Ragnarok. I've rewatched the Spider man, the Tom Holland Spider man movies I've rewatched. There are so many superhero properties, stories, never mind, you know, into the spider verse and some of the animated stuff. But, you know, like, these are movies, those are movies I go back to over and over again because they, they vibrate at the frequency of superhero storytelling that I'm interested in watching in a way that these Snyder movies do not. Does that make them bad? No, it just makes them, them. Not for me. You know what I mean? And that's fine. I, I, you know, they make more sense now that they have seen these longer cuts. They, they, they, the story lines line up in a way that if he did make another one, that was this nightfall, you know, kind of dystopian future or a nightmare or whatever, this dystopian future. I. I'm curious. I'm also curious. For a movie in which the new goddess gods come to Earth, there's like. Like, I'm. I like Kirby. Like, I want dark side. Like, I'm curious, you know, like, there's something there. I just. I just am always like, man, Zack Snyder's stuff just doesn't hit. If you don't.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

If you don't like. If you don't like Italian, you're not saying, don't put an Italian restaurant in my neighborhood.

[Paul Scheer]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you about to say something like.

[Griffin Newman]

Offensive against Italian Mike the spoon man.

[June Diane Raphael]

Mitchell, two hours.

[Paul Scheer]

What is this, the Doughboys? Is this a Doughboys episode?

[Griffin Newman]

Can't we. Nice slice in here.

[Paul Scheer]

I guess what I'm saying is, are you Mr. Snice? Mr. Slice. Rather.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm combining all of his names.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I just think that there is a thing where unfortunately, the Night Spoon and Mr. Slice.

[Griffin Newman]

Night Slice.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Night Slice.

[Paul Scheer]

Night Slice.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is my new Chris Terrio scripted Zack Snyder produced HBO Max, please. But I guess what I'm saying is this. It's like my whole opinion on this is. I think, unfortunately, Marvel has set a. I love Marvel. I love what they're doing. I'm on board. But I think they have set a. An unrealistic expectation for what superhero movies are, what people expect from them. I think you can see that in the Sony films. Not to say the Sony films are perfect. That they have done, but it allows very little, I think, that people view them as anything different, as being bad. Where I think what we need to do is go, we need to expand this thing. But Marvel has created the template, and I think when you break the template, it's very hard to.

[Paul Scheer]

I think what Marvel has done beautifully is made movies that feel like comics.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right?

[Paul Scheer]

Right. Like, the Marvel movies feel the most like comic books.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like going to the store every week, keeping up with a naughty, like, expansive universe where characters cross over and meet each other and blah, blah, blah. That is what they have replicated.

[Paul Scheer]

But that the movies and characters are differentiated from each other in tone, in style, and in performance. Like, there is. They're not all doing the same thing. Just the way that if you pick up a Thor book, if you pick up Jason Aaron's Thor and you read the. Which everybody should read, Jason Aaron's Thor, drawn by Isad Ribbick.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I never liked it before Jason Aaron took over Thor.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, my God. You read that book and you're like, I'm reading something incredible. Then if you pick up Nick Spencer's Spider Man. Tonally, totally different subject matter. Totally different, and nonetheless incredibly compelling. Marvel gets that. Go ahead, Griffith.

[Griffin Newman]

Key difference. Marvel has never let anyone make anything as individualistic as one of the Snyder movies. That's the thing. It's like, we'll make these different from each other, but we're never gonna let someone go that far at the end.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It is. And what I think works really good for Marvel is Kevin Feige is the gatekeeper of all things Marvel.

[Griffin Newman]

He's the showrunner.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. And we've seen when it hasn't worked, which is Jeph Loeb and everything that has come out of the Netflix Marvel world. And it's like, those were, I think, disappointing to Marvel fans, and I think it was disappointing to some of those characters. And it's like, yeah, well, let the person wait.

[Paul Scheer]

Have you talked to some of those characters?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Sorry, have you heard from those characters?

[June Diane Raphael]

Iron Fist.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I talked to Iron Fist. He was very upset.

[Paul Scheer]

Danny Rand, like, Paul, I would love to talk to you. Like, I should have stayed at kun. I should have stayed in Goodland.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But I mean, you know what it is? I just think it's like you look forward to those characters and you waited for the Marvel. I think especially with Daredevil and I think people really. But I love Jessica Jones. But it's like, it was a very hit or miss thing. And I think Marvel has said, I think more successfully than any franchise ever, we got this, like, we would give you at worse a B. Like, you know, like a movie can come in. It's like, yeah, it was a fine. Like. And then. Or, you know, maybe a B minus. Like, you know, it's like. But I think they're getting less Thor.

[Paul Scheer]

The Dark World is like a straight.

[June Diane Raphael]

We're on the other side of that one. Jason.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, this.

[Paul Scheer]

I will never.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's its own episode.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This.

[June Diane Raphael]

So you can have it sometime. We can have the.

[Paul Scheer]

We'll come on. Blank check.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I would love to talk about that, but I would like to rewatch it. But I think. But I guess what I'm saying is. And that is cool, but nothing that everything doesn't have to be that. Like James Bond. Isn't that like James Bond gives it over to different people to take over and it's. I just think there's room for all.

[Griffin Newman]

Of this, you know, I have totally given up any sort of preciousness about IP at this point. Because that's what it is. It's fucking ip. They're gonna keep on milking this stuff over and over again and never End will they reboot it every five years, but they'll do four versions of the same thing at the same time. And to Jason's point, like, I love the fucking Fourth World stuff. I would love to see a gonzo banana pants, bright, colorful, goofy fourth world movie. Ava DuVernay is supposed to make this movie and is writing it with Tom King. My fear watching, you know, this, the, the Whedon Frankenstein version in 2017 was, was, man, is that fourth world movie going to have to fit into this version of Steppenwolf and even the Parademons and this kind of grayscale shit. But now I'm just like, if he gets to do his Fourth World stuff and someone else gets to make a Fourth World movie, that's silly. You know, I don't care. Like, let everyone do their own thing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And, and, you know, look, and there will always be opinions, which is why we're going to quickly get into some second opinions.

[Paul Scheer]

The movie was a piece of, yet this person recommends it. Tell me, what is the message? Maybe that art is subjective. I need a second opinion.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

All right, so these are second opinions that are from the Joss Whedon cut. These are five star reviews of Joss Whedon Justice League, which I wanted to bring up because there are some good ones. These are all cold from the Amazon.com Nate Kiley pulled them. And here we go. Okay, this one's written by Fan Out West. Do not hesitate to buy this movie and enjoy it. Unlike the Zack Snyder films, the cast actually looks like they're having fun making it. In my opinion, the cast of Marvel movies look like they're worn out and tired. The mustache that was removed via CGI is very short and not noticeable. If you're not looking for it, Jason Momoa is off the hook as Aquaman, and Ben Affleck's Batman is great. Yes, I said it. Ben Affleck is a great Batman. Don't listen to Dirty Rotten Tomatoes. They haven't been right about a movie in years. And if you don't want to have fun watching a movie, then throw the Arrival or Grand Budapest Hotel in the big old Blu Ray player and bore yourself silly.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow, the big old Blu Ray player. Like a jumbo one for the Grand Boot.

[Paul Scheer]

Dirty Rotten Tomatoes. There's so much that's the Dirty Rotten Scoundrel sequel we need.

[Griffin Newman]

We should work on that arrival and Grand Budapest. Notably well received films that also were commercially successful. Both entertaining in very different ways. Like they're not. Like not one film is serious. One film is A very goofy like madcap capable.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, well, that. This is a five star review and it ends with this line here. It says Warner Brothers, hire some Disney PR people and give us JL2. And bribe yourselves some critics. If the Mouse House can do it, so can you. Five stars. Then we go into this one. This is written by Mark. Great story. Extremely well executed by cast and crew. I hate Lex Luthor. Is that wrong of me? I think not. Zack Snyder has always been great at putting it all together. But I also love Zack Snyder's sucker punch. Why doesn't someone kick Lex Luthor's butt? I don't mean a superhero. I mean a regular dude. You know, catch him in the bathroom, have him sip on a bar of soap a couple of times. 5 stars. Just wants to be. Just took that shot to say he wanted to beat up, beat up Lex Luthor and then I'll finally end on this one. This is by Thomas Lernihan. Should have been shelved by the WB and DC when Snyder could not finish the picture rather than allowing another person to take the reins who had no business in the DC universe. While I do not like what Snyder was going to do with some of the characters, overall this movie was pretty good. 5 stars.

[June Diane Raphael]

Twisted.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

A real twist there at the end. So those are some five star reviews. There has not been enough reviews here about this one. But any final thoughts, guys? I mean we really talked a lot. I think a lot about. I mean a lot about. I mean we didn't break it down in the things. Because I think you're right. This is a movie that can be literally torn apart on every level. If you're not buying in on it and if you are, I think it's a pleasant surprise. Or at least that's why I feel. And who knows if it's perspective or, or, or the history or.

[Paul Scheer]

I don't know, I thought, you know, just a couple things. Like I thought Amy Adams just, you know, has so little to do in this movie.

[June Diane Raphael]

Third build.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wow.

[June Diane Raphael]

I mean, Cavill's second build for cried out Sarkara so brutally.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's probably like how the order in which they got into the franchise.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, but. But I thought she's great. She's so watchable and she's so great.

[June Diane Raphael]

She's good.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, people are giving performances that are very good in circumstances that are, I would assume as an act very.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And by the way, I want to just call it one of my favorite moments of the movie. I just looked at my notes. Force majeure. The Pregnancy test.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

A great prop design. Force, mature.

[Paul Scheer]

Incredible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Really? Really. I hope she's pregnant.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, she's pregnant. They're gonna have a baby. I hope that force majeure pregnancy tests become like Zack Snyder's Red Apple cigarettes that they remain a product in every movie from here on out.

[Paul Scheer]

That would be incredible. I, I, it is hard for me to imagine that we live in a world, a society.

[Griffin Newman]

Say it. We live in a society that we.

[Paul Scheer]

Live in a society in which Diane Lane is Ma Kent and Marisa Tomei is Aunt May. Like, this is like, I don't even understand how we've gotten to a point where the older moms are the hottest women on earth and I'm here for it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also funny that, like, Diane Lane is only almost going full opening of Edward Scissorhands. Like, they put so much gray on her. She's like doing an old lady voice. They're like, diane, you gotta be less hot.

[Paul Scheer]

Anything you can, you have to be less vivacious.

[June Diane Raphael]

You can't make Diane Lee not hot. By the way, they fail.

[Paul Scheer]

She is so compelling.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think they did a great job of like, her and Kevin Costner were a very, like, they were not like what you would like. They were great. They're just like, they just look like, like, yeah, like these are like, they weren't just like, well, you know, they, they had a, they had a life to them. I, I like Kevin Costner in that film as well. Even though his picture only makes an appearance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I do too. Now on, on the flip side of that, J.K. simmons is announced as Commissioner Gord. Everyone goes, oh, that's cool. Casting. He shows up in Weeden for one scene. You're like, jesus, how. Why did they shank JK Simmons this hard? All this JK Simmons stuff must have been left on the cut room floor. You watch this movie, the exact same amount of footage, right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

In fact, I think Ray Fisher said that's the only footage that he, that was Snyder shot. That's in the cut.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. I feel like, by the way, Snyder. Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

You've got to figure that he was just going to be in the Batman movie substantially.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think what they were doing was what you all have been saying, which is he was trying to build 10 years very quickly. So it's like, let me just drop these things. Like, I'm seeding the world. I'm seeding the world. And so, yes, I'll catch cast a big name person to come in for one scene knowing that it will pay like, he's, I think, doing it the right way so it's not a bunch of recasting. And it was like, you know, Kirsty Clemens clearly is going to. I mean, now she's not, but was going to be a part of the world.

[Griffin Newman]

No, she is again.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, she is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, she is. Okay, okay.

[Griffin Newman]

She is again. Now. It was like it's gone four different ways, but as of this moment, she's back in the movie as the female.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, okay. So that's. Okay. So interesting. Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

God, no, it's all weird.

[Paul Scheer]

It's all super weird. All of it is as weird. All of this is as weird as the fake upper lip on the weed Superman.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I will say one thing too. One time when I was directing something, I was doing a table. I was doing a scene around a table and I was trying to figure out, oh, how can I shoot this in an interesting way where the camera's moving? Because there's a lot of exposition and dialogue. And I was like, I'm going to. I will have the camera spin around the table. I did, like two takes of it and I was like, this is nausea inducing. Like, I can't. This is not going to be good. It will not cut. It's going to look like shit. Zack Snyder really embraces that spin around the table to a point where I'm. I was dying laughing at how much we were going. Like, it was like a merry go round. We were around that table a lot. Like, it was like, that's it. He's committed to that directorial choice. And in a movie that is so slick, that did stick out to me as being a little bit bizarre.

[Griffin Newman]

He makes weird choices.

[June Diane Raphael]

There's a goofiness. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got weird taste. And at the end of the day, when we're talking about, like, well, you have to buy into this movie. Either you're gonna love or you're gonna hate it. It's like, I think all four of us are appreciating this from the exact same perspective, which is, what a weird thing that this exists. What a bizarre history to get to this point. Having it at this state in such an expanded object is such a curio. You kind of have to view it on a very different. Through a very different prism than any other movie you've ever watched. And you're sort of holistically taking in all the baggage along with actually considering what's on screen.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, not for nothing, the fact that all of us rewatched stuff simply to. Simply to give context to it. Is significant.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like, never intended to rewatch any of those movies.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, guys, I was excited to watch Josh last night. I was like, all right, here we go. Let's get into it.

[Paul Scheer]

This is like. We are all, like. These are the stories that we're all, like, pulling apart and trying to find meaning in some combination of all of these characters and all of these scenes. You know, there is. There is something about this that is very. It's very, very interesting and compelling to talk about. But again, I'm hard pressed to think if I would ever watch any of these movies ever again. And I suspect the answer is no. Unless called upon in something like this to do it. Like. Like, these bring me no joy. But I'm deeply curious. You know, I'm. I'm, like, so compelled by the story surrounding the making of this story. I guess.

[June Diane Raphael]

I agree. But I also could use a break, I will say, from the whole Snyder film.

[Paul Scheer]

I agree.

[June Diane Raphael]

And the whole superhero movie discourse. I could use a half an hour.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We did it. Yeah, we.

[Paul Scheer]

Let's go, guys. Okay, guys, I have breaking news. I want to break into the pod. I have breaking news. Vin Diesel's son has been cast in Fast and Furious 9 to play little Dog.

[Griffin Newman]

It was down to me and him. They went in a different direction. It was down to Grif.

[Paul Scheer]

How did you not get this part?

[Griffin Newman]

I worked really hard, ultimately.

[Paul Scheer]

Is that why your head is shaved right now?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, ultimately, I think he had a little bit of an in. Did I?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what that. That is. This makes me so angry. I mean, and now I. I, you know, I don't know if you guys know this. I am part of the Fast and Furious family now. The animated world of Fast and Furious.

[Paul Scheer]

What?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I wish I was on that show. I am. I am one of the shots. I have a very small part in, I believe, two episodes of Spy Racers. Exactly. Yeah, Spy Racers. And so I'll talk about it more when I can. I don't want to again, look, we're in a moment of mourning for Griff here. I don't want to rub anything.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, I should also mention one more piece of breaking news. Anne Cernoff, who is in charge of Warner Brothers, did an interview that just came out today, and they're sort of asking her a bunch of questions about, like, where does this go now? This and that. And she was throwing out dodgy answers. And then she finally says, I appreciate that they love Zack's work, and we are very thankful for his many contributions to dc. We're just so Happy that he could bring his cut of the Justice League to life because that wasn't in the plan until about a year ago. With that comes the completion of his trilogy. We're very happy we've done this, but we're very excited about the plans we have for all the multi dimensional DC characters that are being developed right now.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And Griff, as you are talking, I also want to read one more quote from that article. She also unequivocally says there will be no David Ayer cut of Suicide Squad.

[June Diane Raphael]

He's trying to leap on the bandwagon. He's trying to be like, look, they edited my movie to death. Where's my release the Ayer cut? And some people are like, oh, release the air cut. And I think she trying to be like, no, no, this is not a precedent setter.

[Griffin Newman]

This is an anomaly.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, like we're not going to be releasing cuts willy nilly on hbo Max.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, I would like them to start. I would like them to release my cut of Dirty Grandpa.

[June Diane Raphael]

I would like to see that. I would like to see it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Guys, it's been fantastic to have you on the show. Obviously, you know we want people to listen to Blank Check, which is a great podcast, but individually, anything we plug Blank Check.

[Griffin Newman]

This week we're doing our year end awards episode and then we're starting a little miniseries on the films of Elaine May.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's right. April is May.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm excited about that.

[Griffin Newman]

April is May.

[Paul Scheer]

Paul and I are both listening to the Mike Nichols audiobook right now.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It was one of the best books I read. We actually had Mark Harris on unspooled to talk about Mike Nichols and it was great. That book is fantastic. And now I want to dive into Elaine as much as I have been diving into Mike Nichols rad movies.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm very excited.

[June Diane Raphael]

That was very fun miniseries.

[Griffin Newman]

The George Lucas talk show with Jason and Paul and David have all been on multiple times. Yeah. A very odd, hard to describe show I do with the great comedian Connor Ratliff where he plays George Lucas and I play Watto, the Tordarian junk shop owner. And we interview real people in character.

[June Diane Raphael]

And it has its own anthology. It's on top.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's on Twitch. Yeah. Sunday nights.

[Griffin Newman]

Sunday nights, 8:00pm Eastern Time. Planetscum Live.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, Planetscum Live. Jason, anything you gotta talk about?

[Paul Scheer]

In a week, I will be in a new Amazon animated series. As we're talking about superhero stories, Robert Kirkman's Invincible is coming out.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, I'm so excited for that.

[Paul Scheer]

It's great. It is a one hour superhero, brutal, incredibly cool, incredibly fun, funny, faithful adaptation. Kirkman himself scripting an incredible cast. If you've read Invincible, it's, you know, J.K. simmons, Steven Yun, Sandra oh, it's like a Gillian Jacobs Zussy Beats. It's like an incredible list of people. And I play Rexplode guys. It's very fun.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That is very, incredibly exciting. And I will just quickly mention that I am in two things that you can check out. One is on Netflix. It's called the Last Blockbuster. It's a documentary about Blockbuster Video. And. And I am blown away by the amount of people who have seen it. And if you are a fan of this show, I do talk about my Jamie Gertz experience. And she reached out to me, the girl that I thought, well, the girl who I play the fake Jami Gertz in my autograph signing that you can hear about in the documentary. So she reached out to me and. And this movie that did called Happily directed by Ben David Grabinski is out on VOD right now. It's super fun. Joel McHale, Kerry Bechet, Kirby Howell Baptiste, Shannon Woodward, Charlene Yee, John Daly. So many people. Steven Root. It's Twilight Zone meets couples retreat weekend and I think you will like it. So there's what I got. A big thank you to our amazing producer, Cody Fisher. Our sound engineer, Devin Bryant, of course, our movie picker who we sidelined this week. I told Avril, I was like, we're just gonna go and jump into this. She's like, you haven't even seen it. I was like, I know, but we're gonna do it. But Avril, great movie picker, producer, the best. Also, Nick Kiley for his research and being able to break down the entire trajectory of this film. A big shout out to the ghost of Craig T. Nelson and Kyle Waldron for doing all of our art. A giant shout out to Molly Reynolds, who is my right hand and also a big part of how did this get made and getting this show made all the time. And if you want to talk about this movie, you want to rebut anything that we say, you can do it. You can give me a call at 619p a u l a s k. That's 619paul ask. We'll talk about it there and you can join our discord at Discord. GG hdtgm Woo. It's all there for you to talk about in our mini episode next week. We will see you later. Bye for now. High five Casino is the top choice for social casino gaming that's free to play. Play. With chances to win and redeem for real cash prizes, free spin rewards, and tons of exclusive games, you can experience more high five moments than ever before. You're gonna want to high five everyone. The neighbors, the mailman, all your co workers, of course your friends. Well, you get the point. Your High Five moment [e-mail] no purchase necessary. Voidware prohibited by law. Must be 21 years or older. Terms and conditions apply.