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How I Built My Small Business
Duncan Wardle - Set Your Creativity Free Inside the IMAGINATION EMPORIUM
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- [00:00]
Duncan Wardle
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Ann McGinty
Welcome to How I Built My Small business. I'm Ann McGinty, your host. This interview was so entertaining to host. It felt like I was back in college for an hour and had the most interesting guest teacher who made me laugh, play games and have fun, all while learning. Today's guest is Duncan Wardle, the former head of innovation and creativity at Disney. He's on a mission to help people tap into their natural creativity, fuel innovation, spark curiosity, connect through empathy, and trust their intuition. The moment Duncan popped into our online recording room, he jumped straight into teaching. And the first few minutes of our conversation are missing because I hadn't yet hit the record button. But I learned a lesson. Hit the dang button sooner, you may even find yourself wondering, wait, who's hosting this show again? At one point my husband overheard us and said it sounded kind of negative when you kept on saying no. What was up with that? Well, you'll just have to listen in to find out. Let's jump in.
- [01:25]
Duncan Wardle
How were any of us going to compete with this? And she said, well, she believes the most employable skill sets of the next decade will be the things that will be the hardest for her to program into AI. And I said, well, what are those? She said, the ones with which you were born. Imagination, creativity, curiosity, empathy and intuition. But the problem is this. Then we go to school and we have them kicked out of us. And how do I know that? I wanted to prove it. So I went to a university to give a talk. There are about 3,000 universities students. So I brought in one first grade class of 30 little six year olds, sat them in the middle with their teacher. Everybody else was 18 to 24. I said, hands up, who's creative? Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. But only 30 hands went up. And so we define creativity, most of us, as the ability to write music or paint. I don't. I define creativity as the ability to have an idea. We all do that 100 times a day. I define innovation as the ability to get it done. That's the hard part. And that's why I wanted to create the book. I said to the publisher, it's not a book, it's. He goes, what do you mean it's not a book? I said, it's a toolkit. I said, people don't use books, they use toolkits. It has three principles. Take the BS out of innovation and make it accessible to normal, hardworking, busy people. Take creativity and make it tangible for 50% of us who are uncomfortable with ambiguity, but far more Importantly, make it fun. Give people tools they choose to use. When you and I are not around, people are busy. If you don't make it fun, they won't use it. And then. Then why have the book? Well, because it's on the bookshelf.
- [02:46]
Ann McGinty
Yeah. Get people to play again.
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Duncan Wardle
Yes.
- [02:48]
Ann McGinty
Get people to let go of their the confines of like modern society and just have a little fun.
- [02:55]
Duncan Wardle
You said that you get your best. Where were you when you get your best ideas?
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Ann McGinty
Driving in the car.
- [02:59]
Duncan Wardle
Right? So I can do this with all. I've done it with 20,000 people. And you stand up, you say, right, close your eyes. Where are you and what are you doing when you get your best ideas? And people will say shower, driving, walking, falling asleep, waking up, jogging, exercising in the park. And I get them to write it down. And I say, right, hands up who wrote down at work. Ooh, guess what? 000 people get their best ideas at work. Well so that's frustrating, isn't it? Because we're paid to have our best ideas. So I'll give you an analogy as to why. Close your eyes. Now picture the last verbal argument you were in with somebody. Close your eyes. You don't have to tell anybody about it. Just picture it. Voices are raised. You're angry at each other. You arguing about something you probably regret later on. You're really angry. Now you turn to walk away from that argument. Now you're five seconds away, you're 10 seconds. You are no more than 20 seconds away from maybe 30 seconds away from the argument. Maybe a minute. And what just popped into your head totally spontaneously, the moment you turn to walk away from that argument, what was it?
- [03:58]
Ann McGinty
I don't think that I thought of anything other than I want to read a book and meditate and shift my brain off of this.
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Duncan Wardle
But wait, what about the killer one liner? That one line you wished you'd used during the argument? The perfect line. But guess what? You didn't, did you? No. None of us ever do. Why? Because when we're in an argument, our brain is moving at a thousand miles an hour like this, defending ourselves. And when we're at work, we're doing emails, we're doing presentations, we're doing compliance training, we're doing weekly reports, we're attending weekly meetings. And I hear myself say, I don't have time to think. And when you say I don't have time to think, you're in the brain state called beta. I call it busy beta with the official title of scientific specific title is reticular Activating system. Nobody remembers it, so we'll just call it a door. When the door between your conscious and subconscious brain is firmly closed, when that door is closed, you're only working with your conscious brain. You can Google this. What percentage of my brain is conscious? 13% of your brain is conscious. 87% of your brain is subconscious. Every meeting you've ever attended, every bicycle ride you've ever been on, every innovation you've ever seen, every creative problem you've ever sold is back here is unrelated stimulus. But when the door is shut, you don't have access to it. So what do I do? I run an energizer. You can find them in the book. They're 60 second exercises. What are they designed to do? They're designed to make you laugh. Why? Because the moment I hear laughter, I know that metaphorically, I've just opened the door between your conscious and subconscious brain and place you metaphorically back in the shower. Option or option B, ask your boss if you can bring showers to meetings. And so by being playful at the right. I don't expect people to be playful every minute of every day, but I do expect people to be playful when they're leading ideation sessions. Because if you're not playful, you can't open the door between your conscious and subconscious brain. And that is where you are when you have your best ideas.
- [05:41]
Ann McGinty
So what do you do when you drop into like, let's imagine that you are dropping into the most boring, bland corporate boardroom.
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Duncan Wardle
My daily life.
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Ann McGinty
What's the first thing that you're going to do to shake it up? If it's up to you.
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Duncan Wardle
So the first thing I'll do is I'll ask people if they think they're creative. Nobody will put their hands up. Then I get them to stand up in pairs and I tell person A, you design parachutes. Relevant person B, you interview them about their job and you just hear this amazing laughter and suddenly they prove to themselves that they're far more creative than they thought they ever were. But particularly for leadership teams, I do this exercise because the more experience, the more expertise we have, the more reasons we all know why the new idea won't work. So we constantly shoot it down. Right. Actually, I'm curious to hear what is the most common phrase you hear when people are killing your ideas? What's the classic one liner that they tell you?
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Ann McGinty
They shoot it down.
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Duncan Wardle
Right. They shoot it down. So are you a Harry Potter fan or a Star wars fan?
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Ann McGinty
Ooh, Harry Potter.
- [06:39]
Duncan Wardle
Okay, so I'm going to come at you with some ideas for a Harry Potter party. We've been given $100,000 budget. Pretty good budget for a Harry Potter party. I'd like you to start each and every response with the following two words. No, because. And then you'll tell me why not. Okay, so. But you'll always start with the sentence with no. Because. So he's thinking, right? I could come to your house, put a sorting hat outside the front door. All the good people will get the Gryffindor party and all the dark mysterious people will get the Slytherin party.
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Ann McGinty
No, because that would be too many people at our house and the kids might get upset with which house they get put in.
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Duncan Wardle
No. Fair point. I tell you what, then we'll take over your dining room and we'll turn it to a magic potions room where everybody could drink some amazing alcoholic cocktail that turns us into something totally freaky.
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Ann McGinty
No, because it'll get so messy and I'll have to clean up and decorate the room. It sounds like too much work.
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Duncan Wardle
Okay, what if we did a cosplay party? Right? I could come as Albus Dumbledore and you could be Professor McGonagall.
- [07:36]
Ann McGinty
No, because the kids will think it's cheesy.
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Duncan Wardle
Yeah, fair point. Okay, gosh. Right, well, what if we just show the movies and give people free popcorn and Coca Cola?
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Ann McGinty
No, because that's not an activity.
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Duncan Wardle
Okay, so let's stop there. I call it business as usual. Was the idea getting bigger or smaller? Which way was it going?
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Ann McGinty
Smaller and smaller and smaller.
- [07:58]
Duncan Wardle
When people are constantly. No, because in you. How does that make you feel?
- [08:01]
Ann McGinty
Like my ideas aren't important.
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Duncan Wardle
Exactly. So let's try it again. Are we okay with Star Wars? Can we do Star wars or a party of your choice? What would you like? Sure.
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Ann McGinty
We could do Star Wars.
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Duncan Wardle
So I'm going to come at you with some Star wars ideas I'd like you to start with. Instead of starting with the words. No, because in each response I'd like you to use the words yes. And they'll be the first two words you use. And you'll just build on what I've given you. Okay. And we'll just build on each other's ideas. Oh yeah. We could get into your kitchen, turn it into an intergalactic canteen where we could have the cantina band and we could have a food and wine festival from Hotham Boo in Tatooine.
- [08:34]
Ann McGinty
Yes. And we can bring theme food in so that every aspect of the party just emerges. You straight into Star Wars.
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Duncan Wardle
Oh, yes. And we kind of glow in the dark. Lightsaber fights full of our favorite alcoholic liquid.
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Ann McGinty
Yes. And we should open up the back door so that the kids run outside to play with those lightsabers. And they don't knock things down in the house.
- [08:54]
Duncan Wardle
Oh, yes. And then we could actually have Disney's corporate jet pick everybody up at the party, fly them down to Disneyland, and take them to Galaxy's Edge.
- [09:02]
Ann McGinty
Yes. And that will be the best party of the year.
- [09:05]
Duncan Wardle
Okay, so we'll stop there. So a lot more laughter, a lot more smiles on your face, a lot more energy this time around. Was the idea getting bigger or smaller?
- [09:13]
Ann McGinty
Bigger.
- [09:14]
Duncan Wardle
Yeah. You can always take a big idea and value engineer it down very hard to turn a small one into a big one. Far more importantly, we work inside big organizations, small organizations. We have colleagues and constituents and clients and bosses to bring on board with our idea. By the time we just finished building that idea together, whose idea was it?
- [09:30]
Ann McGinty
By the time we finished, everybody's.
- [09:32]
Duncan Wardle
Two very simple words from the word of improv that can turn a small idea into a big one really quickly. But far more importantly, transfer the power of my idea, which never goes anywhere inside an organization, to our idea, and accelerate its opportunity to get done. Don't be the Eeyore in the room. That'll never work here. Just. I know you have responsibilities. We all have responsibilities. Just remind yourselves, we're not green lighting this idea for execution today. We're merely greenhousing it together using. Yes. And just remember, when somebody comes at you with an idea you're not thinking of, that's a really good place to start. Innovation is about getting you to an idea you can't have by yourself. If the first two words out of your mouth are no, because do you think they're coming back next week when they've got a really big idea? Not a chance.
- [10:17]
Ann McGinty
So then where do people take this fun game, though? I mean, we're talking about a Star wars party or we're talking about a Harry Potter party, but what if it's a really large business decision or an organizational decision, something that together as a team, will impact the future of the employees?
- [10:35]
Duncan Wardle
So, yeah. So here's what I also recommend is you must very clearly signal, are we in expansionist session today or in a reductionist session? So, and what I mean by that is, are we here to have ideas or are we here to evaluate them? Unless you make that very clear from the beginning, you're going to have lots of no. Because inside an Expansion session. Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilms, and Disney has at least one, probably multiple rooms where they're called the expansionist rooms. You don't get to kill an idea in this room. So we had the greenhouse at Disney, and everybody knew when they were in the greenhouse, this was the one room where you don't get to kill ideas that we will evaluate them later on unless you very clearly signal to people what type of behavior you're looking for. So, for example, I might have the yellow card and red card from the world of soccer. And if people are trying to kill ideas, I'll throw them the yellow card. I've never had to throw the red one. I might get people to stand up and say, I'm a reductionist. And we'll all cheer for them, a laugh, and they'll sit back down again. The physical room is really important, particularly in ideation session. American Idol, America's Got Talent. Yes. Usually three celebrities on the show. What physical object separates the celebrities from the contestants?
- [11:39]
Ann McGinty
Well, there's the desk and the stage.
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Duncan Wardle
The desk, the table. And what. What is the role of the celebrities on the show?
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Ann McGinty
To evaluate the performers, to judge the.
- [11:48]
Duncan Wardle
Moment you leave somebody on the other side of a table in an ideation session, in a brainstorm or a meeting, they would judge your work and think reductive simply because you left a physical object between you and them. Walt Disney created the storyboard for a reason. Because what he realized when he brought people from out behind the table and went for a walk with them, he was taking them on a journey. Not only that, by removing the barrier between the two of them, he was turning a presentation into a conversation. Your bosses have more experience than you do. They want to add value. Give them the opportunity to do it, or they'll shoot it down. But back to the real world. I'll give you. I want to give you a couple of tools for people listening in, because people want to know, okay, so how does this work in the real world? So hands up, who likes breaking the rules when the boss isn't looking? Or hands up, who works in a very heavily regulated industry? We all do. So what if it was a tool that enabled you to metaphorically break the rules of your industry or your challenge to help you jump out of your river of thinking your own? I call your river of thinking your expertise and experience. And the more expertise and experience we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won't work. So we constantly shoot it down. In the last four years, we've had a Global pandemic, climate change, Generation Z. Not wanting to work for anybody, Here comes an AI. So unless we think differently, we're out of a job. So I created a set of tools. They're in the book that takes the intimidation out of innovation, makes creativity tangible and the process fun. The tools are designed to be simple, powerful and fun. This tool called I call what if? It was created by Walt Disney for the film Fantasia in 1940. He wanted mist and heat pumped into the theater, but the theater owner said, no, Walt, too expensive. So Walt observed the industry and wrote down the rules. Step one, write down the rules of the challenge you're working on next week. Don't think about them, or you'll start thinking of all the reasons you can't break them. So Walt wrote down the rules of going to a movie theater. I must sit down. It is dark. I must be quiet. I must pay to get in. I can only watch one movie at a time. I must watch the previews. I can't control the environment. There's the list. Pick one. He chose the environment and asked the most audacious, outrageous, provocative, what if? Statement. Of all the more provocative, the further out of your river you'll jump. So Walt said, well, wait a minute. What if I could control the environment? Well, he couldn't. He didn't own the movie theaters. Besides, that wasn't provocative enough. So he said, okay, if I can't control the environment inside the theater, what if I take my movies out of the theater? Well, don't be darf. Well, they're two dimensional. They fall over. What if I made them three dimensional? If you know the answer, you're iterating. If he scares you, then you're innovating. They said, well, how you do that? Well, he said, well, what if I just had people dress up in costume? I could have princesses and cowboys and pirates. Yeah, but Walt, you can't. These are all the no causes, right? You can't have Cinderella standing next to Jack Sparrow. People wouldn't be immersed in her story. Yeah, you're right. What if I put each of them in a different themed land? Oh, wait a minute. What if I called it Disneyland? Boom. We're done here. Simple, powerful, fun. Now, let me ask you a question. Did you ever used to go to Blockbuster Video?
- [14:47]
Ann McGinty
Oh, yeah.
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Duncan Wardle
Did you ever pay late fees?
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Ann McGinty
Probably.
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Duncan Wardle
Of course you did. Were you pissed off at paying the late fees? Of course you were. So the founder of the founder of Netflix used exactly the same tool as Walter used all those years before. Before he Was so fed up of paying late fees, he walked into a Blockbuster video, sat down on a chair for four hours, and observed the industry. Step one, write down the rules. I must drive to a physical store. I must go during opening hours. They have a very limited stock. I can only take out three at a time. I had to return it. I had to be kind and rewind it. And if I took it back later, I had to pay a late fee. He picked one of those rules, the store. And in 2005, he said, what if there was no physical store? Didn't know how to sell for it at the time. So he looked outside of his industry and found this new company called YouTube. They were six months old. They were only streaming amateur content. So he said, well, hang a minute. What if I did a deal with the major movie studios? I'll just stream professional content. Ha. Nobody would have to drive anywhere. I'll be open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I'll have an unlimited stock. Everybody will get the one they want. They won't have to return it or rewind it. I'll cut the rental off at 24 hours. Nobody pays a late fee. Oh, I'll call it Netflix. I'll take it to Blockbuster five times. They'll turn me down five times. And guess what? I'll take them out of business in less than five years. Now, with people listening, I'm sure a lot of people will sit there and say, well, that's great, Duncan. You know Disney and Netflix has multiple resources. I don't. Well, okay, to be fair, Walt was bankrupt in 1940. But that doesn't help you. Reed Hastings was working out his mum's garage in 2005. But I'll give you a smaller example, because I want everybody to understand the tools work for them, too. Very small company in Great Britain in the late 60s used to make glasses that we drink out of, like this one. And they found too much breakage and not enough production when the glasses were being packaged and shipped. So they went down shop floor, sat down for eight hours and observed the process and wrote down the rules. 26 employees. Conveyor belt. 12 glasses to a box, six on the top, six on the bottom. Glass is separated by corrugated cardboard. Glasses wrapped individually in newspaper. Employees reading the newspaper. So somebody asked the somewhat provocative what if question. What if we poke their eyes out? Well, that's against the law, and it's not very nice. But because they had the courage to ask the most absurd what if question of all, the lady sitting next to him and said, well, wait a minute. What if we just hire blind people? So they did. Production up 26%, breakage down 42%, and the British government gave them a 50% salary subsidy for hiring people with disabilities. List the rules of the industry in which you work or the challenge you're working on. Next week, pick one rule and ask the most audacious, outrageous, absurd what if statement. The more absurd, the further out of your river you will jump.
- [17:34]
Ann McGinty
And then once you have those what if questions asked you, it sounds like you evaluate, but then figuring out how to actually make it come to fruition is a whole nother department.
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Duncan Wardle
Yeah. So then we get to reductive. Is this. Forgive me. Is this an audio podcast or video podcast?
- [17:50]
Ann McGinty
It's both.
- [17:51]
Duncan Wardle
Okay. Oh, good. So. Right, right. Okay. Now let's see if I can draw on this. This is the hotel's guidebook, so I'm probably not supposed to, but, hey, what if I drew on it? So there's a tool called Stargazer. It's in the book. Now let's see if this shows up. If not, I'm going to go get a Sharpie. Ideas are the most subjective thing on the. Now can you see that? Okay, so ideas are the most subjective thing on the planet. You like pink, I like blue. Our boss likes yellow. Chances are we'll be doing the yellow idea. Well, hang on just a minute. So I use two tools to evaluate ideas. One is passionomet, which is about voting with your heart. One is Stargazer, which is voting with your head. Why do I use Passionometer first? Because if the team are not passionate about an idea, they're the team who have to execute it. They've got too many other things on their plate. I guarantee you that idea will get stuck, diluted, or killed. Or does it move through to execution? Because we've got too much else on our plate. We weren't passionate about it. So the traditional brainstorm. The ideas are up on the wall, and then we're told we can put our three red dots on the ideas we like the most. So what do we do? We wait to see where our boss puts their three red dots, and then we line up behind them and tell them how much we like the idea. But guess what? We didn't. And so when the idea goes off to execution, it gets stuck, diluted, or killed. So the first thing I do is let people vote anonymously. I can get down from 50 ideas to about eight like that. All I'm looking for at that stage is which ideas are up on the wall that you want to go home and tell your loved one, I'm working on this. This is the coolest thing ever now. Okay, great. So I've gone from 50 down to eight now. Yes. Now you've got to look out for the business and vote with your head. So this is called Stargazer. I borrowed it from Richard Branson at Virgin. Virgin is the most elastic brand on the planet. Right. Richard's done condoms and space travel and everything in between. Disney is a non elastic brand. It does family magical entertainment. So how does Virgin decide what products and service to bring to market? Well, they use this talk. It has five criteria on it now. So what you do is you draw a starfish. You'll find it in the book, it's called Stargazer. And then you draw three criteria points on each one of the legs. Then you would decide your success criteria. I would suggest you agree your success criteria with the senior stakeholder on day one. If you don't do that, we both know the goal posts are going to move because another senior vice president would join the project and they'll move the criteria every time I come back in at different points in the project, I share the criteria and I say, do we all agree on the criteria? Because if the goalposts are going to move, I need to know now because I don't want to waste another six weeks working on this. And so let's just, I'm making these up for today. You will make up your own criteria, but today, let's just say we're looking for ideas that are strategic, brand fit, that is, they are aligned with who we stand for as a brand. They are embedded in the consumer truth. Let's say today we're looking at, we want to engage 21 to 24 year olds. I need to be able to get this into the market in the next 18 to 24 months. It's socially engaging. It needs to get the 21 to 24 year olds to come more often, spend more money and I can make a bucket load of money out of it. Obviously you'll have financial goals and all you do is, let's say idea number two. You go around and ask yourself, does this do a poor job, a good job or an outstanding job of being aligned with our brand? And you put a dot where you think it scores. So that's idea number two. Will it make a bucket load of money? Does a good amount. Is it socially engaging? Very. Can I get it in the market in the next 18, 24 months? Yes. Is it embedded in consumer truth? It does a fairly good job. And then what you do is just as you did when you were six year old, whoops, you go around and join the dots just like you did when you were six year old. Now then, so you'll do it with a different color for each of your different ideas. You've got eight ideas up on the wall. At some point, one idea is going to rise to the top as the meeting your success criteria the most, not the one you like the best. And so that just takes out all the subjectivity out of the marketplace and makes it objective again. The tools are simple, powerful, fun. Now, Richard Branson gave me some advice. He said, unless the idea is 100% embedded in consumer truth and 100% aligned with our brand, throw it out. You must have the courage not to do it. And I'll tell you how powerful the tool is. When we were bringing two new Disney cruise ships into the market, we had to decide where the old ships would go. The new ships were clearly going to come into Port Canaveral because the Caribbean is the large share of revenue of the cruise market. So we had to decide where the old ships would go. Well, any large corporation, that decision just takes too long. It takes six weeks. It takes six months of over analysis paralysis. And Sarah's not here today. We have to cover off. What about Dave? Oh, Dave's not. Oh, we go. And then the decision gets made in the corridor and nobody understands how you got there. So we use this tool. And one of the criteria was, can we get the ship into the berth of this particular port in the next 12 months? And guess what? If you can't, can't do it. Because the conversation normally comes down to subjectivity. One senior vice president goes, do you know what? We did the Med cruise last year, it was great. And then the EVP goes, no, my wife and I did the Alaska. I don't give a toss what you like, right? It's about, is it embedded in consumer truth? Can I get the ship into the berth in 12 months? And we took 16 executive vice presidents into a room, we made a decision in 59 minutes. Unheard of. Again, the tools are designed to be simple, powerful and fun.
- [23:28]
Ann McGinty
And these tools, I mean, how did you learn this creativity? Is this something that you just were born with? Have you always been like this?
- [23:37]
Duncan Wardle
Well, so when it comes to that what if tool, I love breaking the rules. So that one was easy. So, I mean, look, I was at Disney for 30 years and the last 12 I was in Charge of innovation and creativity. And you learn by mistakes, right? So when I was first given the role, you know, and Bob Iger said, listen, I want you to create a culture that embeds a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody's DNA. At the time I was head of global pr, I thought, how the hell am I going to do this? I don't know. So the first thing I did was survey 5,000 people and asked them what were the barriers to being more innovative and creative where they worked. Number one, I don't have time to think. Number two, we don't have the resources. Number three, we say we're client centric, but we measure by quarterly results. Number four, our ideas get stuck, diluted or killed as they move to the organization. And number five, we all have a very different definition, creativity. So Pixar was going this way. Lucasfilms, Marvel's gonna. It's like, guys, can we just get together? So I tried four models. The first three failed. The first one was I hired an outside consultant, an innovation consultancy. He said, make me look good, not quite, you know, where we go. And so they were very good at what they did. They were very expensive, but they were never around for execution. They sure as hell weren't going to show me how they did it because they were worried I wouldn't hire them again, again. So, okay, that got me so far down the road. Then I thought, we'll create an innovation team. Duncan will be in charge. What could possibly go wrong? So nobody outside of legal does legal. Nobody outside of marketing does marketing. Nobody outside of operations does operation. So when you create an innovation team, you subliminally just told 98% of the organization, you're off the hook. You don't have to innovate, which is not a good idea. The third model we tried an accelerator program where we'd bring in some young tech startups and invest in their business. What we could offer them was we could scale their product. And what they could offer us was they could enable us to bring ideas to market much quicker than we normally would because they weren't governed by our policies, our procedures and our politics. But we had failed in Bob's overall goal, which was how might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody's DNA? So I set out to create that toolkit, one that creates tools that are simple, powerful and fun, that takes the intimidation out of innovation, makes it accessible to normal, hardworking, busy people and make it fun. There's too many things that could become a flash in the pan. What we realized at Disney was we had a three and a half year wait list for what was a two day voluntary workshop to learn how to use the tools. A lot of people pay me to go and give keynotes and I enjoy giving keynotes. You can inspire and motivate people in 60 minutes. You can't help them. People learn by doing, they don't learn by listening. And so I love getting in a room with a group of people who don't think they can innovate, they think they're not creative. And you doing these one day workshops with them where halfway through the day you just see the smile on their face when they realize they can do it. That to me gives me enormous pride.
- [26:35]
Ann McGinty
So do you think that creativity is more of like a muscle that you build through practice or do you think that it's more of like a mindset?
- [26:44]
Duncan Wardle
Creativity is the muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it gets. But we think we can't break old habits and we think we can't learn new ones. So we've all been successful in our careers thinking the way we always have. And that's worked really, really, really well until global pandemics, AI climate change and generation C not wanting to enter the workplace. And so we have to think differently. And that's why I created the toolkit. The toolkit is designed specifically to stop us thinking like this and give us permission to think like that.
- [27:12]
Ann McGinty
Can you give us an example of some time that you did that? Like where you felt creatively stuck and then you had to get out of it?
- [27:18]
Duncan Wardle
Yes, I'll give you an example and then I'll tell you how we got to it. So this tool was created by a man called Walt, last name Disney. How? By simply reframing a challenge. Can I stop us thinking the way we always do and get us to think differently? He said, we will not have any customers in our park. We'll only have guests, we will not have any employees. We'll only have cast members. With that simple rule, re expression of the relationship between the employee and the customers, the cast member, the guest. Walt had created a culture of hospitality that's rarely been repeated elsewhere. So how does this work? And then I'll explain how we actually did it. So you live just north of Golden Gate Bridge. Sorry. Never understood why it was red, but that's beside the point. Sorry, Duncan's gone off script. Let me ask you a question. I'm coming to a town near you. You and I are going to go into business together and we're going to open a car wash. Tell me if you would, the three or four essential ingredients we must have in a car wash. What must we have?
- [28:12]
Ann McGinty
We need space. We need soap, water building, some sort of auto pay function.
- [28:20]
Duncan Wardle
Okay, so we'll stop there. So we need space, water, soap building and autopay. So car wash is really boring. You and I are venture capitalists. We have been invited to open a new franchise of autospas, which you are. A spa. Now, what have you seen in your favorite spa? What would you like to have in your spa? Anything you want. What would you like to be?
- [28:39]
Ann McGinty
Attractive, visually appealing, relaxing.
- [28:43]
Duncan Wardle
What else can we have in a spa? Anything you want. What do you want? Yes. And.
- [28:46]
Ann McGinty
Oh, food, drinks.
- [28:48]
Duncan Wardle
What else?
- [28:49]
Ann McGinty
Music.
- [28:49]
Duncan Wardle
Music, what else? Mani pedi, perhaps?
- [28:52]
Ann McGinty
At a spa? Sure, at a spa.
- [28:54]
Duncan Wardle
No, it's a spa. It's a spa, right? Okay. What else do you want?
- [28:57]
Ann McGinty
Yeah, facials, massage and.
- [29:00]
Duncan Wardle
Okay, so we've got massage, we've got facials, we've got mani ped, we've got ambience, we've got nice music, blah, blah, blah. So which one would you rather go to, the car wash or the auto spa?
- [29:09]
Ann McGinty
The auto spa.
- [29:10]
Duncan Wardle
Well, there you are then. See? So all I did was reframe the challenge. I said car wash. I knew you were going to say water, soap and brushes. That was a gimme. That's the danger of our river of thinking. So this tool specifically turns the river of thinking on its head. So instead of in 2011, if we'd said, how might we make more money? We'd have put the gate price up at Walt Disney World by 3%. Instead of asking that question, we reframed. So car wash, autospa. How might we make more money? How might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? Everybody knew what it was. It was called standing in line in Disney parks. So we identified where the biggest lines were. Space Mountain, meeting Mickey Mouse, checking or checking out of a Disney resort, paying for food or merchandise. And we use the tool called warehouse, which we haven't covered yet, which is about looking outside of your industry. Most of the insights for innovation were not coming for looking within the industry in which you live. So we looked outside of our industry and asked ourselves, where in the world has somebody already solved the challenge of not standing in line? And we found a pharmacy in Tokyo, Japan. This was, God, 15, 15 years ago. Now using RFID technology to enable people not to stand in line. Welcome to the world of Disney's magic band. It sits on your wrist. Is it Your room key? Yes. You don't check in on checkout with Disney Resort. You haven't done that for seven years. The turnstiles. What turnstiles? They went away six years ago. You swipe and you walk in with your magic band. Your reservations for your favorite character, meet and greets, your favorite rides, they're on your magic band now. It's morphing towards the iPhone today. Can you pay for merchandise with it? Hell yes. Touch it once goes to my hotel room. Touch it twice goes to my house. Can I pay for food with it? Of course I can. I save my food on my smartphone. I walk into the restaurant when I want to walk in. I sit at the table I want to sit at. The fruit comes fresh to me. Had we have started by asking how might we make more money? We'd have put the gate price up and made our revenue goals by 3%. But by reversing the challenge and calling the challenge something completely different, I. E. How might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? The average guest at Walt Disney World today has over two hours free time each and every day they didn't have six years ago. What has that resulted in? Record, intent to return, Record intend to recommend. And what is it you lovely people do with your free time in Disney parks? Cha ching, Cha ching, Cha ching. One of the biggest single revenue generating ideas in Disney Parks history. By not asking, how might we make more money and what is the consumer doing every second of every day with their magic band and their phones, they will be live crowdsourcing the future of every products and service Disney creates by tending them every second, second of every day what they like and what they don't like. Now again, if I give you a big example, I'll give your listeners a smaller example because they I want them to know the tool would work anywhere. I was up in New York, sat chatting to this young lady behind the reception desk. I was waiting for a meeting, got upstairs, met the boss. I said, you receptionist, absolutely delightful, so friendly, so empathetic, lovely girl. He said, oh, that's nice to hear. He said, well, how long were you chatting to her for? I said, I bet 10 minutes, I suppose. He goes, oh, that's odd. I said, well, why the hell is that odd? He goes, well, we don't have a receptionist. I was like, well, who the hell was I talking to for the last 10 minutes? I said, well, hang on a minute. Her name was Sarah. She had a summer dress on because it had no sleeves. She goes, oh, Sarah. Sarah's our director. Of first impressions. It's like, boom. That simple re expression of a form of employment. Empowered to own the space she is. So the next time you're working on a challenge, are you working on in the banking industry or are you working in the dreams come true industry? And how might that help you think differently?
- [32:40]
Ann McGinty
That is an interesting way of thinking and not intuitive, I don't think, for most of us. You know, you had mentioned how time was, like, the number one reason why people did not have the ability to think creatively. So if you were able to redesign the work week to be magical and promoting creativity, like, what would the work week look like for most corporations?
- [33:07]
Duncan Wardle
Yeah. Different companies do it different ways. And I'll explain the importance of why. Now, hands up. And we'll have to. I'll say if you put your hands up to the people who are just listening, hands up. If you've ever gone to your favorite restaurant, right? You get your menu, you know, you've been there plenty of times before. You read the menu, appetizer, make lots of desserts. They've never changed. Your listeners listening to the specialist, but you're not listening. Hands up. If you order the same thing every single time, you go, come on, own it, girl. Her hand is up, listeners. Okay, Hands up. If you get in and sleep on the same side of the bed every night, Come on, girl, put it up. You know you do. Even when you're staying in a hotel room on business by yourself. Come on. I know. Come on, confess. I know you do. So you remember when we used to commute backwards and forwards to work and we get home and we always used to go past the same route and you get home and there's just that split second where you get home and you just go, oh, how did I get home?
- [33:59]
Ann McGinty
Yeah, every day.
- [34:01]
Duncan Wardle
Because you went past the same stimulus day in, day out, day in, day out, your brain physically shut down and it didn't wake up till you got home. No fresh stimulus in, no new ideas out. So how do we get fresh stimulus into our lives? Different companies do it different ways. Microsoft has think weak. No meetings, no emails, no presentations. Hasbro, it gives their employees three or five dollars a quarter to put something on their desk. But it cannot be a toy, just spark a different conversation. Pixar. I think this was genius. Steve Jobs created this whole philosophy called unplanned collaboration. It doesn't sit by legal and marketing and sales and it. Everybody sits everywhere under this philosophy called unplanned collaboration, specifically designed to bring two people together who are not supposed to meet to have a conversation. They were not supposed to have to spark a new idea. And why is Google smarter than the rest of us? What have they got that we don't? What's the number one? Oh, I don't have time to think. What did they give their engineers time to think? 20% time. It's not an urban myth. I work with them. I'm working with them on DeepMind. I'm not suggesting you walk up to your boss next week and say, boss, dude, I need Fridays off from now. And Duncan said 20%. But what if we took one hour a month? Let's call it the first Friday of every month from 9 till 10am Whatever day and time you pick, be consistent. Just one hour a month. It's not a big ask. And invite your teams to come in. Brown bag breakfast. Real or virtual? No. PowerPoint presentations? No. Why is it good for the business? Just invite each person to come in prepared to talk about one thing they've seen in the last 30 days in their business life, or ideally their personal life that they thought was innovative or creative. You'll be amazed at the new energy and ideas you drive into the building.
- [35:41]
Ann McGinty
So these concepts and this toolkit, it's all in your book. What led you to want to write the Imagination Emporium?
- [35:51]
Duncan Wardle
Five years of getting off a stage and somebody. Have you got a book? No. Have you got a book? No. Have you got a book? No. Piss off. I got fed up of answering the bloody question. That's no. But also, I love doing things I don't know how to do. So I'd never written a book before. So I thought, right, I'm going to do that then. Animation. I'm an animated character. I created new characters. I'd never done that before. Never put QR codes in a book before. And you know, now it's got AI in it. You can literally scan the back QR code and ask the book a question, why did I do it? Partially. I'm not going to lie. I'm selfish. I wanted to do it because I didn't know how to do it, and I wanted to do it because I wanted to see where it could go. But not only can you ask the book about how to use the tool on page 67, but if you've read the book, you already know how to use the tool on page 67. So you can actually ask the book how to use the tool on page. Whatever page. Whatever tool you choose. How to sell more orange pencils in the state of Pennsylvania on January 13th. And yes, the book will answer you. And so it's been a real challenge getting it ready. And so much of a challenge. The book was printed before I decided to do the AI so there's nowhere in the book does it tell you. So here, here's a secret. The last one's AI what do you.
- [37:07]
Ann McGinty
Mean, the last one? Say I.
- [37:08]
Duncan Wardle
The QR code on the back cover of the book. If you scan it, you'll go to the brain and the brain will ask you, do you want to sign up? You'll say, yes, please. And you can ask the brain three free questions a day for which I pay because somebody had to pay for it. I wanted to do it for free. The publisher was like, no. So if you want to ask the book more than three free questions a day, you subscribe. But I wanted to do it because nobody else has. I wanted to do it because I haven't. I wanted to do it because I was scared of it. And it's exciting. I just love those projects at Disney where you would. You go in and present them and somebody senior to you would approve it. Then you thought, shit, I have no idea how to get this done. The Buzz Lightyear, you saw it in the book. Or how I stole the turkey from the President of the United States of America on Thanksgiving Day. Oh, yeah. Yes, I did. Or how I built a full size Olympic swimming pool down Main Street, USA from the castle to the train station and convinced Michael Phelps to swim down it. You know, and when I said, hey, let's take Buzz Lightyear into space, do you think I'd ask NASA? No. The chairman said, go do it. You're like, ah, I gotta go. So it was funny because this was the launch of Toy Story, right? So we had to create some parts around it, pun intended. And I thought, well, okay, what was Buzz Lightyear's dream? Well, his dream was to fly. And I said, well, what if we can make him fly? And people like, well, how are you going to do that? I said, I'm going to send him into space. I had no idea how I was going to do it at the time. So then it was approved. I thought, oh, God. So I went off to meet with NASA. There's about 23 people in the room. And you could tell that half the people just loved the idea of taking Buzz Lightyear into space. And half of the room just wanted to throw me through the window without opening it first. But the senior guy at the end of the table, he goes, well, you know, I won't try and do an American accent because it won't come off very well. He said, if we're going to take Buzz Lightyear into space, we're going to have to take him out on a space walk. I was like, oh, my God, did math just agree to take Buzz Lightyear itself? Anyway, so about six months before launch, I get a call from Johnson Space center and I said, we need Buzz Lightyear tomorrow. I was, what do you mean tomorrow? The launch is six months from now. We said, well, no, tomorrow is the deadline. I was like, why? He says, well, because we have to take it apart molecule by molecule. In fact, we need two identical ones in. I was like, because? He said, well, because if there's a bubble the size of an atom inside the plastic that could explode in the vacuum of space. I was like, oh, I knew that. So then, do you ever see the film Jingle Bells with Arnold Schwarzenegger? The one where he couldn't find the Christmas toy for his son? Well, here was the problem. When we launched Toy Story, Disney underestimated how successful Buzz Lightyear was going to be. You could not find a Buzzly and save your life. I thought I had 37 cast members at Walmart, Kmart, Target trying to find Buzz Lightyear. I said, don't tell me this deal is going down because the Walt Disney Company can't find Buzz Lightyear. So we found one, right? This was 2004, I think it was. And so I'm now in my car because I'm desperate. This was the days before smartphones. I had the Motorola Flip, which I still think was the coolest phone on the planet. Bond chains Bond. And so I got a call, but you couldn't see who was calling. And all I heard was, to infinity and beyond. I was like, who is it? And it was my wife. She goes, it's me, dear. I was there. Where'd you get it? She goes, it was underneath James's bed. It's been collecting dust for a bit. I was like, I'll send it over. So I wrote James's name on his foot, just as Andy had written his own. And I sent the two Buzz Lightyears off to Johnson Space Station. I said, look, don't destroy this little, this Buzz Lightyear. This belongs to an eight year old boy called James. So six months later, we were invited down to the launch at Cape Kennedy and I cried. I was like, my little boy is going. It was pathetic. I burst out, cried, my little boy is going to space. So anyway, off goes Buzz. And NASA was Sweet enough. I've got this amazing photograph taken from the cockpit of space shuttle Discovery above planet Earth, looking straight down onto central Florida to James's house. It was like, oh, my God. So fast forward two years, we're launching another Toy Story, of course. And I thought, well, how the hell do you top sending Buzz Lightyear into space? I thought, I'm going to bring him home. So I phoned up the director of comms at NASA. I said, when you bring in Buzz back, there's total silence on the other end of the phone. I was like, no man left behind, right? I mean, my tongue was so far in my cheek. He goes, that was never in the contract. We never agreed to Buzz Lightyear home. I said, well, you bring everything back, right? He goes, no, we don't. I said, well, what do you do with all the stuff you take up? He goes, we just open the hatch and shove it out the back. I was like, you can't incinerate Buzz Lightyear in the Earth's atmosphere. I'll leak it to the world's press that NASA killed Buzz Lightyear. My tongue was so far into my cheek. Anyway, God bless him. God bless NASA. God bless the American taxpayer. Yes, I am one of you. Even though I have a funny accent. Cost of. I won't tell you the cost to bring 3 pounds of a toy back through the Earth's atmosphere. But that day, the weather was poor. He couldn't land at Canaveral, so he went out to Edwards Air Force Base in California. And I don't know. You look too young, but there's amazing Images of the 747s that used to piggyback the space shuttle on top of them. That would bring them back to Florida. They'd actually literally. The space shuttle would sit on the top of a plane. And I have the actual passenger manifest of their flight, the actual piece of paper. Seat 1A, Congressman. Blah, blah, blah. Seat 3A, Commander. Blah, blah, blah. Seat 4D, Astronaut. Blah, blah, blah. 47B, Commander Buzz Lightyear. And now if you go to the Smithsonian museum in Washington, D.C. yes. To the Air and Space Museum, you will find Commander Buzz Lightyear with a little bronze plaque underneath it that says, gift to James Bordle, Age date. I'm a great believer in the Henry Ford quote. Whether or not you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right.
- [42:53]
Ann McGinty
Wow, you are such an inspiration. I mean, you definitely are not limited by any belief. No, you think big.
- [43:03]
Duncan Wardle
So impossible. Put an apostrophe between the I and the M. Give it a bit of a space. And now what have you got?
- [43:10]
Ann McGinty
I'm possible.
- [43:12]
Duncan Wardle
Bingo. We're done here. It's just spelled differently.
- [43:15]
Ann McGinty
Duncan, this has been a masterclass. Honestly, I wish I could just sit in one of your classrooms. I want to know what do you teach at Yale and Harvard? I wish I could sit in those classrooms and participate. And we all want to be more creative. So what's the next best step for somebody who's listening in, who wants to work with their creativity? Would the book be a good place to start?
- [43:38]
Duncan Wardle
Yeah, I hope so. Look, number one, be playful. I mean, you know, the most creative people we know are children. Hello. How many resources they have? They don't. This is not a lie. I didn't want people to buy the book. I wanted it to be free and the publisher wouldn't let me. And I still want to give it away free for anybody underneath the age of 18, if I can get permission for the. Why? Because by the time we're 18, we've been told we're not creative. We've given up. And it's really sad. We're all creative, right? We all used to play with the box. We didn't play with the toy. We just had it squeezed out of us. It's about reminding people that they are creative again. I'll start where I don't believe in this oh, the creative, forgive me bullshit. Right. The problem is we've defined creativity as the ability to write music or paint or be an artist. I disagree. I define creativity as the ability to have an idea. We all have a hundred a day. I define innovation as the ability to get that done. That's the hard part. And that's where the tools in the innovation toolbox inside the Imagination Emporium can.
- [44:37]
Ann McGinty
Help people well, and maybe the confidence, too, to express your idea. How many times have you sat with somebody and you're brainstorming and they're scared to share what they're thinking?
- [44:50]
Duncan Wardle
Yeah. So I think that's a great shame. In Every room is 25% extroverts. The people who talk before they think. I like to say talk as I think I know that's a lie. And then there's the 75% of the room who are the people who think first, but we never hear from them. And that's a great shame. And so you'll find inside the book, there's a technique where you'll actually get 100% participation, not 25%. And it's. It's quite Invaluable, because these are the people more often than not that are closer to your customers. Are you familiar with 19 crimes?
- [45:22]
Ann McGinty
No.
- [45:22]
Duncan Wardle
Do you drink red wine?
- [45:24]
Ann McGinty
No.
- [45:25]
Duncan Wardle
Oh, well. But you live in Napa Valley, for God's sake.
- [45:28]
Ann McGinty
Hello. But apparently we're all California sober out here.
- [45:32]
Duncan Wardle
Next time you have the opportunity to go to your supermarket, walk up to the bottle of red wine in cabernet and hold your phone up to the label of the 19.
- [45:42]
Ann McGinty
Oh, I have heard of this. It's like an interactive wine company, fastest.
- [45:47]
Duncan Wardle
Growing number one selling red wine in the United States of America. How did it get there? They turned a product into an experience. Simple as that. Augmented reality is going to dominate virtual reality in the next five years. One, because VR is not good enough yet. Two, because the headsets like Apple Vision Pro too expensive. B because you're asking people to do something they're not already doing. We all carry one of these. Just think about. So you don't think Disney's probably talking to McDonald's about virtual happy Meals where you could choose the character that pops out of your child's Happy Meal and speaks to you in Portuguese and says Happy birthday for a buck.
- [46:22]
Ann McGinty
Oh my gosh, the speed of innovation. It feels like with with all of this technological advancement, it's just getting very faster.
- [46:32]
Duncan Wardle
Yep.
- [46:33]
Ann McGinty
Well, Duncan, thank you so much. Everybody. Go and buy the Imagination Emporium, try some of the games and see for yourself what he's talking about. Thank you so much.
- [46:45]
Duncan Wardle
Thank you for having me. Thank you very much.
- [46:51]
Ann McGinty
Today's key takeaways the most employable skill sets in the future may be imagination, creativity, curiosity, empathy and intuition. Creativity is the ability to have an idea. Innovation is the ability to get it done. When you're in busy beta, you're only working with your conscious brain. 13% of your brain is conscious. 87% of your brain is unconscious. And that's where the magic happens. But we have to relax to access it. Your best ideas are when that door between the two is open. Laughter is one key that unlocks the door between the conscious and unconscious. Playing games is another way to get creative. For example, Duncan mentioned a game where you assign person A the role of designing parachutes for elephants. And person B has the job of interviewing that person about their job. Try it out. Your brain has to stretch. Your river of thinking is your expertise and experience. And it can be both a gift and a trap. The more you know, the easier it is to shut down new ideas. So stay open and practice. What if thinking. Write down the rules of your industry, business or challenge. Then ask what if we did the opposite? What if the rules didn't apply? The more ridiculous the better, the more absurd the further outside of your river of thinking you'll jump. Know because is an idea killer. Yes, and can turn a small idea into a big idea. Remember, you can always take a big idea and value engineer it down. Know which session you're in. Are you in an expansionist session or a reductionist session? In other words, are you here to have ideas or here to evaluate them? Physical space matters during ideation. Don't let tables, desks or objects create barriers between you and your team. Keep it open. Turn a presentation into a conversation. People lean in when they feel involved. Evaluate ideas with the passion meter first and then get your head involved. If you don't have passion for the idea or some part of it, then the idea will get stuck, diluted or killed. So whoever is on the team and will be working on the idea, have them vote anonymously for the idea that they would be stoked to be working on. Analysis Paralysis is real. Don't get stuck overthinking. Just take the first step and learn as you go. People learn by doing. They can be inspired and motivated by listening. Including hopefully shows like this one. But listening alone won't help. You have to learn by doing. Creativity is a muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it gets. And as AI grows, creative thinking is going to become even more important. Reframe challenges. A new perspective can unlock a better solution. Look outside of your industry. If your business has a pain point, how have others outside of your industry solved this pain point? Maybe you can borrow their brilliance. There is creativity in every single one of us, and it's society that squeezes it out of us. As Henry Ford said, whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right. That's it for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.