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How I Built My Small Business
Hayes Hitchens - MOONDANCE ADVENTURES: Unplugging Teens for Life-Changing Travel Experiences
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- [00:00]
Ann McGinty
Foreign.
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Hayes Hitchens
Welcome to How I Built My Small business. I'm Ann McGinty, your host, and in today's episode, Hayes Hitchens talks with us about his journey starting and building Moondance Adventures. Moondance is a teen adventure travel program that sends over 2,000 teenagers each summer on trips across five continents and over 20 countries with a commitment to foster personal growth, leadership skills, and a love for the outdoors. For some backstory, Hayes was the dean of Students and director of Summer programs at my school, and I remember him talking about starting Moondance Adventures when I was in the seventh grade. So this is a super meaningful reconnection. And wow, to see what he has accomplished is just so inspiring and heartwarming. You can find a link through to Moondance in the episode's description before we dive in. If you enjoy today's episode, please share.
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Ann McGinty
It with someone who could benefit from the insights and stories. I'm an indie show and your support helps me reach and inspire more listeners. Let's get started. Hey, it is so good to see you after all of these years. Thanks for coming on the show.
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Andy
Well, I'm so glad to be here, Ann. Wonderful to reconnect.
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Ann McGinty
So can we go all the way back to when you were working at Lovett and we were standing on that grassy hill outside the classrooms and I remember you talking about how you were going to start making Moondance. Can you take us back there? How did you even get the idea for Moondance?
- [01:58]
Andy
So I left Lovett in 95, made a. A decision in actually the fall of 94 to leave because I was chasing an old summer camp. I was trying to buy an old summer camp in North Carolina and been working on this, had been able to raise money for this. And this is my dream. My grandparents owned a summer camp in northern Wisconsin. So anyway, the property that was trying to buy fell through. On Friday 13th October, 1995, they sold it to somebody else. And I thought, what am I going to do? The sun came up the next day. That's when I had this idea for a adventure program. And that's when I put this together for Moon Dance. And so the concept of Moon Dance, it almost came out of Sink or Swim. And the idea that I'd always had would be to own a traditional summer camp. But that fell through. And this has turned out to be a lot better.
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Hayes Hitchens
So once you decided that you wanted.
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Ann McGinty
To start an adventure program for teens, how did you actually get it up and running?
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Andy
Well, the part about a lot of this is sink or swim, right? Either I had to make something happen or I was going to have to find something else to do. So I had this idea, shared it with a girlfriend at the time who was with Anderson Consulting. She wasn't crazy about the idea. But I also met with another friend of mine, Marcia Hill, who ended up saying, okay, this is what we're going to do. And boom, boom, boom. And a week later, we had a name, we had a business idea, had a concept, putting together business plan. And we had the first year. So that was probably November of 95. And then we operated. First summer in 96, 34 kids ended up going. Not quite sure whether we're going to make it to year two, but we had a great time on year one. But year two ramped it up, and then ramped it up a little bit more year after that. And then once we started traveling internationally, it. It's really kind of taken off since then.
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Ann McGinty
Well, so 1995, 1996, I mean, Google was hardly a thing.
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Andy
Google was not a thing.
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Ann McGinty
And websites were not really a thing. So how did you get anyone to even know about your business?
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Andy
So I had a couple catalogs from a couple of our competitors, so that was it. So there was no Google, there was no search at all. And it was just trying to figure it out. So the best way to do this was just. It was at word of mouth. So I had the connections at Lovett and the connections in the South. I had connections in North Carolina, where I'm originally from. And then I'm just getting the word out and spread it. So my cousins owned the camp up in Wisconsin. We got a handful of kids out of there, some kids from Lovett, kids from Westminster, and then a smattering of kids from around the country. You know, great kid out of Chicago, another kid out of Dallas. I'm not quite sure where they found out about us because it was really, really hard back then. I traveled a little bit in the south, just making presentations in Atlanta and Charlotte and Nashville and Birmingham. But I wasn't traveling the country at the time, so I'm not quite sure where a handful of those found us, but they did find us. And I think they all had a pretty good time. And a lot of them came back and then they brought their friends.
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Ann McGinty
So it must have been word of mouth. And with the 34 kids signing up, I mean, this was all new to you, right? You'd never run a program like this by yourself, Never.
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Andy
And I had led, you know, I'd taken groups of kids from Lovett when I was there. On various trips, but never putting together a business, never understanding all the intricacies that come from, from running a business, from the risk management to the legal, everything that entailed all that. It was a little bit of survival. So you know, what I didn't know didn't hurt me at all because I didn't know a lot. And where it really kind of turned for us was really understanding the hospitality piece of working with people, working with kids. And I'd always loved that when I was at love. And I always loved the kids and I loved the parents and I didn't always love the administration or the just the politics of a private school. So being on my own was great. And then I had a handful of folks that believed in me and said, okay, this might work, but again, it's hard to make a small business operating year two or three or four or five. But we were able to get to year two, the course of 96. It was the Olympics in Atlanta. So I thought we would get all these kids from Atlanta and we did. We got, you know, handful, got Whitney and a handful of other folks that ended up joining us. But after that, then that word started spreading. And then by 97, 98, 99, we really kind of took off then.
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Ann McGinty
So what was that first summer actually like? Like I'm sure that there were some hiccups. I mean nobody, nobody starts a business and has it be smooth sailing. So what was it actually like?
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Andy
Oh, it was hindsight, what was going on. I mean the trailer popped off the van. That's the first bump that we hit over there. And they're going, oh my gosh, we've got to be able to do that. But we operated in North Carolina, had two groups that went to North Carolina. We split up. Matter of fact, one of my co leaders, a girl named Casey Crim Marshall, who went to love it. So Casey was my co leader. And then they had another group. They went one direction, we went the other direction. This two week trip to North Carolina. Then I went out to Wyoming, to Jackson Hole and we had two groups out there was on that first one, then JoJo was on the second one and ended up having small groups, probably seven to eight kids backpacking in the Tetons. We didn't have permits. Don't. I'm not sure that you can let everybody know that we didn't have permits.
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Ann McGinty
Yes, it's been long enough. Statute of limits, 30 year period of.
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Andy
Time, that's gone, that's gone. But we operated, wanted to make sure the kids had A great time, a lot of fun, but also a lot of challenge. And my background was not only at Lovett in the campus, but I did it Knowles course, the National Door Leadership School and Outward Bound course, and took of those concepts into it. Quickly realized that's not what kids really wanted. Kids wanted to connect, kids wanted to be challenged. Kids also wanted to have fun. And you can do all that without having to really be something that. That's so physically hard that they said, I never want to do that again. And so probably 50, 55% of those kids ended up coming back for a second trip. But the other thing, too, Andy. I didn't know a whole lot about business, and so I was trying to figure out what was going on. So not only was I reading, but it was it school in real time and trying to figure out, okay, how do you make payroll and how do you take care of everybody? But again, I did know a lot, which was probably helpful because if I'd known a lot, I probably wouldn't be doing this. And that's the kind of the great part about it, I think, sometimes. Are you entrepreneurial? Is everybody that way? I'm not quite sure. But what I did know since I was 18, is that I wanted to get into the summer campus. I was 19 at the time. So after my freshman year college, I knew that's the direction I wanted to go. So I understood the camp of business, but I didn't understand this business as much. And so that helped me at least having those. Those years over there working with kids. And again, I mean, 30 years into it, and I'm. I'm still not a great businessman, but we're. We're in business for 30 years.
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Ann McGinty
I think you are a better businessman than you are acknowledging.
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Andy
Well, we'll see. We'll see. It's been a fun run.
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Ann McGinty
So when you mentioned the hospitality piece as something that you wanted to bring in, what do you mean?
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Andy
Maya, Angela, quote, you know, how do people feel when you walk away? It's. It's not exactly what Maya Angelou said, but it is one of those things. There's a guy named Danny Meyer.
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Ann McGinty
Yeah, he went to my college. He went to Trinity College.
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Andy
Yeah, he did. So that's exactly right. So Danny's done a marvelous job. He really talks about hospitality quite a bit. And there's. There's another guy that worked for him named Will Garrida that wrote a book called Unreasonable Hospitality that just came out a couple years ago. It's fabulous book. But once I saw that once we started focusing more on what's that service piece like and what's the hospitality piece like, and how do people feel, and not just the kids, but how do the leaders feel? Are they taken care of and how do the parents feel? Are they communicated enough? Because in our business, it's a little bit roots and wings. And so parents give those kids those roots, but they got to let them spread the wings in order to find out what's going on. So there's not daily communication with the parents. And they had a hard time with that. They had to trust me, they had to trust us. They had to trust our system, that we were doing everything right and their kids were safe, but they were also changed. And so when you go climb a big mountain or you go on a longer adventure of a backpacking trip or a rafting trip, there's a little something that comes from that.
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Hayes Hitchens
Well, and so back then, you didn't.
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Ann McGinty
Have to worry so much about, I guess, letting the kids spread their wings because the technology, you know, cell phones didn't really exist.
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Andy
They did not.
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Ann McGinty
They did not really exist.
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Andy
They did not.
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Hayes Hitchens
So what is your perspective on devices.
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Ann McGinty
And how do you handle this with teens probably wanting to bring them on the trips?
- [10:22]
Andy
Everybody has a smartphone. Every single kid has a smartphone. So a couple thousand kids, we take the phones out as soon as they arrive. So they text their parents, I'm here. And then we take them up nice. And they do not touch their phone until they walk through security on the way out at the end of the trip. And they love it. And parents have a harder time with that than the kids do. But kids love it. And oftentimes where they get their phone back said, I don't want my phone back. I like being able to talk to other people. And it's become a bigger problem. Year after year, it's become a bigger and bigger problem. So what it was like in 2010 is completely different than it is now. So that's probably one of the best things for them. The other thing that we do, which is really great, is we take their watches away so they don't know what time it is. So we talk about living in the moment. So think about this too, Andy. So we think about our greatest competitor is time. And so time is fleeting for a teenager or for a young adult or for older adult. And if we take that concept of K, you have this little window of time, and then it's going to be gone. And so two weeks is a small amount of time. And they talk about if you live to be 80. You might get 30,000 days out of your life. 30,000 days. So we're talking 14. And what we're trying to do in that 14 days is give them something that's so impactful that in 10 years or 25 years, they're still talking about what that experience might have been like. As we go through this, we all know that we forget a lot of stuff. We forget a lot of things that happen to us. Some things might trigger that. What we try to do is try to give them a moment of time, a memory of that, that, that, that moment that they reflect back on years later. And it could be, it could be anything. It could be, you know, hiking up in Alaska. It could be climbing a big mountain. It could be hanging out with some kids that you just met and becoming really, really close with them.
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Ann McGinty
This is incredible work that you're doing because I think that especially with the rise of technology, kids more disconnected and realizing that it's not what makes them happy. But the technology is also built to be so addictive that they can't really step away from it unless somebody does actually take it off their hands. So my gosh, thank you so much for doing what you're doing.
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Andy
Well, we asked parents in a follow up evaluation, 100% of the parents support that decision. And I would say almost 100 of the kids support that decision. They want to have an excuse to not have their phone with them. I have a 19 year old and yeah, I see the addiction right there. And they'll sit in a room with a bunch of other kids and they're texting back and forth, they're not even talking. And so communication is critical. And so we, we take the phones up and allow them to talk. And so it might take them a day or two to kind of warm up. What is this like? What do you mean? We're going to sit around, we're going to talk about some of this stuff. And that's, that's really, really helpful for them to be able to talk about. And the other thing too, Andy, that has been great is that we allow one friend to go, but we don't allow you to go with two friends. And so you might be able to, so you feel a little bit insecure or you feel like you need to take a buddy with you. You can take one, but you can't take two friends. Meaning that you're going to meet ten new kids.
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Hayes Hitchens
Great.
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Andy
And that concept has been from the get go. And so we had all the kids out of the Buckhead area that wanted to go together. And I wasn't going to take everybody and decision that I made up right off the bat. And if we failed, that was the decision I was. I was comfortable about leaving with. I didn't want to take everybody that knew each other, because when you don't know each other, you actually are more open to talk about things that happen to you as opposed to being with a bunch of friends that know you really, really well.
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Ann McGinty
Yeah, I can see all of the benefits. I mean, getting pushed outside of your comfort zone just a little bit. And as you're saying, like, feeling open because nobody knows anything about you. So when you have, like a group of teenagers, most of who don't know each other, together for the first time without their devices, what do you do about getting them to know each other and breaking the ice so that you can kind of get on with the trip?
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Andy
It's easy. All kinds of games that they can end up playing just to. Just to know each other. And it might take a day or two. This is what I've seen. So you have two sisters and a brother, right?
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Hayes Hitchens
Yeah.
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Andy
So the girls. Girls are much more open about relationships, about meeting new people. Guys are a little bit standoffish. And so it's a. The girls will be right there bringing everybody in and bringing the group together, getting to know everybody's names and getting to know each other in that first 24 hours. We do all kinds of things to try to get to know each other. But sometimes it might take those boys a day or two or sometimes five or six days to kind of get out of that shell. And all of a sudden they realize, hey, this is. This is pretty good. And I can share some things that I think about, but I've never been able to tell anybody. I can't tell my parents. I can't tell my friends. I can't. And all of a sudden they're telling these other kids on their. On their trip. And so the group dynamics, the shared experience, is the magic that happens out there. And when you get kids together, all of a sudden you put them on a belay line or they're out there, whether they're rock climbing and somebody has to support them over there, or they're in a boat and they're having a paddle and everybody on the left side has to paddle together. And just all these little things that when you're active, helps you out. And then if you go out backpacking sometimes it's kind of tough. So the best thing to do when you're backpacking is talk and to talk to each other. And that's, that's a cool concept for kids to figure out is that they're having these conversations and finding out from these other people that they just met the day before. And by day 12 or 13, they're crying because they hate to say goodbye. And it happens time and time again. So it's something that kids need and moving forward, I believe strongly that it's something that they will look back on finally and hopefully this will go on for another 30 plus years.
- [16:17]
Ann McGinty
Yeah, there is something, I think they've even studied this about being in the outdoors that way, what it does to your nervous system. I imagine that you have been to I don't know how many countries at this point. What stands out to you as some of your most memorable experiences and trips from running all of your different trips.
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Andy
Through Moondance, I've been very fortunate to travel a good bit. And one of the things that I talk about is when you go to someplace that's so spectacular that you're planning to come back before you've actually left, that's pretty good. So East Africa is pretty special to me. I've been fortunate to have gone a number of times and been up Kilimanjaro a couple different times. My daughter climbing it last summer was very special to me. Although I was not there, it was probably one of the most proud moments of my life, just knowing, because it's pretty tough physically, but what I'd love to do also is just to go out and see kids and see them in their element and see what's going on over there. There's a very humbling experience as an older owner of the business, going over there and hanging out with a bunch of teenagers thinking, okay, who's the old man over here? And then once we warm up a little bit, it's okay. But I don't want to detract from their experience. And so I was fortunate to climb did Grand Teton a bunch of times, Mount Rainier a bunch of times with some kids. And that experience was pretty special. But probably the most impactful is just going out and seeing kids at different times of their trip and just spending a little bit of time with them and then when they come back as trip leaders. That's special also, as I continue to travel. Traveled to Europe a couple times last summer, saw about 12 different groups in Slovenia and Croatia and Madeira and Morocco. And that was all part of the perks of being a business owner.
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Ann McGinty
Oh, my gosh, you picked the best business ever.
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Andy
I love it, love it.
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Ann McGinty
I love it. And I don't even do it. I wish I were doing what you're doing. And so now you are in your, what, 29th or 30th season?
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Andy
Going into our 30th season. Yep.
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Ann McGinty
You mentioned like over 2,000 kids traveling. I think you guys cover several continents and several countries.
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Andy
Afcon is 21 countries, 11 states.
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Hayes Hitchens
How have you done this?
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Ann McGinty
Like, you mentioned getting trip leaders who were previous participants, but how else are you putting this all together? I mean, this is, it's seasonal. And then it sounds like an influx of leaders and students and logistics and.
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Hayes Hitchens
How are you doing this?
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Andy
Well, I'm not doing it on my own, I'll tell you that. One of the most important things that I did early on is realize that I need some other people involved to help us get that going. So we have. There are 18 full time folks over here right now. So it's, it is a seasonal business. We operate from, from June until the end of July, but we're full time. And so we kick off our new season about two weeks after we complete the previous season. And so we've got, gosh, we had about a thousand kids that signed up in the first 30 minutes last year and it crashed our website. And so we changed that. That whole structure up of how we're doing that, that was great. I have a team that's dedicated just to the emissions. I have a team that's just dedicated just to the operations. I have a team that's just dedicated to staffing. The finance team is dedicated to all that. And I'm just massaging all of that, make sure that it's all coming together and working well. So it's not been without some challenges and a lot of bumps along the way, but having the system set up over there where everybody knows what they needed to take care of and it works well.
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Ann McGinty
Well, it sounds like it has just continued to grow since you first started and must be working well with 18 people working full time. How many are working during the peak for June and July?
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Andy
Every single one.
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Ann McGinty
And then leaders, though. How many leaders do you have?
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Andy
We had about 170 last summer.
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Ann McGinty
Oh my gosh, this is amazing.
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Andy
And they're all remarkable folks. And the model for finding the leaders has been a little bit different over the years. Originally going after more of those that had the hard skills of being able to operate in a backcountry type setting, realizing that that's not, you need some of those, but you also need those with a really soft skills. And so some of our trips are not as physically challenging. So going to Africa, to Tanzania, to Zanzibar may not be having the hard skills, but you have to have the people skills, you have to have the communication skills, you have to have the leadership skills in order to manage all that. So we go to Chapel Hill and we go to UVA and WNL and Georgia, Georgia and Vanderbilt and a lot of great schools recruiting trip leaders. And then we have some that are in their seasonal business that might have gotten out of college and maybe working in the ski industry or something, that they might have another summer available. But typically by the time they're 24, 25, they've aged out. And we have a couple that are a little bit older than that.
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Hayes Hitchens
Have you ever had a situation where.
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Ann McGinty
A leader was a no show?
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Andy
We've never had a leader that's a no show. We had a leader that withdrew two weeks before the summer started, which was a little disappointing. But it was also, it was a great opportunity for us to realize we will be very stringent on folks that come in. So we have 170. We had three or four that did make it through staff training last year. We just realized, okay, they weren't the right fit and we made a change. And during the summer, sometimes those, those things happen. So we have a surplus of trip leaders that we can pull and move some folks around. But I think last time we had 172 different trips operating around the world, and this summer we'll have 200.
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Ann McGinty
Wow. If there's anybody that's younger listening in who is curious about possibly being a leader, what does it require, and how extensive is the training that they get?
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Andy
Well, the application process is twofold. So the original application comes in. If they are strong enough, they get the full application. If it's not, then we'll just politely say, this may not be the right fit. Right now we probably have 75 already on board that are hired. We have probably 250 applications already. We'll have roughly 500 applications for about, I say 170 spots, but 60 to 70 of those will be taken up by folks from last year. So about 500 applications for about 100 new positions this year. And so it's really pretty great to be able to go through this. They'll go through three interviews before me, and then I do the fourth interview. And another wonderful thing, the woman that's overseeing our staffing team, Suzanne Hollis, is a Lovett graduate. Fantastic, unbelievable woman. And she's the One that kind of spearheads all that. So they don't even get to me until they've already confirmed that they are phenomenal. And on the fourth interview, and that's either the make a triple eater or maybe it's not the right fit, but we've been very fortunate. And, you know, it's all about the people that you're working with and it's all about who we bring on board. And so we'll take everybody to North Carolina, we'll train them for two weeks. We spend two weeks at a traditional camp over there and then go through everything from sun up to sundown every day and just learning how we operate. We'll spend four days of a simulated trip in the Pisgah National Forest, if you remember the Joe trip. And then they end up coming back to Nashville. We'll spend a couple days here, and it's like throwing a pebble in a pond. And then people scatter all over the world from Nashville International Airport.
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Ann McGinty
What an incredible leadership opportunity for any of these kids.
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Andy
Jello.
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Ann McGinty
To get to do.
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Andy
It's amazing. Leadership opportunity.
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Ann McGinty
Oh my gosh, I want my kids to do this.
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Andy
So there was that, that travel snafu last year, right? It was in. I think it's latter parties. Like, do you remember this?
- [23:44]
Ann McGinty
Oh, yes.
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Andy
There was Microsoft glitched that threw everybody off. Yeah. So Delta Airlines said no unaccompanied minors were able to fly. Well, we had 60 kids that came from Belize into Hartsfield Airport, and I had three trip leaders with them. They were all seniors in college. One was going to law school, one was the president of her university, and another dynamic woman. Long story short, they were able to maneuver all 60 of these kids onto a flight. After Delta Airlines said no other company miners could get on there, they got every single kid home that day. So I wrote them pretty quickly. I didn't even know about this because I was flying back from Africa and I didn't know about this until they had gotten everybody. And I said, this may be the most important leadership position that you have been in at this point in your life. And I believe that because they were able to talk Delta Airlines into letting these kids go. And so, yes, it's about problem solving, it's about decision making, it's about leadership. There's so much more to the job than just leading kids in an outdoor environment.
- [24:49]
Ann McGinty
Yeah, there is.
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Hayes Hitchens
And just like they are creating an.
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Ann McGinty
Experience for the kids to never forget, they themselves, as leaders, I am sure, are also experiencing moments that they will never forget.
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Hayes Hitchens
So this all sounds incredible.
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Ann McGinty
I know behind the scenes there is stuff that everybody else doesn't see, like how do you handle liability insurance and risk management?
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Andy
Well, the insurance and risk management are both massive over there. So we have a team over there, our risk management team. We attend a conference every year working directly with the National Outdoor Leadership School. And now we're bound to some other folks, and so we attend this every year. The liability is quite extensive, as you can well imagine. But we also work with an insurance company that's dealing in the outdoor industry, and so they understand what we're doing and that we're traveling internationally and that we might be engaged in activities that it might be a little bit challenging when they look at whether it be whitewater rafting or mountaineering, might seem a little bit daunting. One of the things that we've also done is that we subcontracted all these professional guides and outfitters and all the destinations where we go. So we are not taking care of all the actual setting up the ropes before actually rock climbing. We're not setting up the boats over there. We subcontract that with somebody else that's taking care of all that.
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Ann McGinty
And how do you find your subcontractors? How do you vet them going over.
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Andy
There, meeting them one on one? We've got a better system set up now than we did back in 96 because we had no idea who we're going to be able to work with. So we'll go through this. I'll have a conversation with them. I meet them personally. I just went to Africa to meet some new outfitters that we're going to work with. Yeah, it's part of the job. It is one of those things. It's about trust. So parents are trusting us. I'm trusting our leaders. I've got to be able to trust the outfitters that we're working with. And so sometimes they don't make it. And if they don't hold up to our standards as we have this, this really thorough document about everything that has to go through and how we operate and how we want them to communicate with our kids and. And what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. And we've got some amazing people that we work with all over the world and continue to have those relationships. I mean, there are a handful of companies we've been working with. This is our 30th year working with them.
- [26:56]
Ann McGinty
Wow. And you've mentioned Africa a few times now, and you did say that East Africa has got such a meaningful Place in your heart. What is it about East Africa that makes it so special to you?
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Andy
Have you been to Africa?
- [27:09]
Ann McGinty
No.
- [27:09]
Andy
It is the most magical. And my daughter has been 6 times, 19 years of age. I know it, I know it. There's something about just the raw nature of being out in the bush and seeing the wildlife. So I just took my sister as a plus one and we had a big male lion that was looking for shade and came right up next to our vehicle and he was two feet away from my sister. We could hear him breathing. You get the flies on his back. And it was so real and so magical for her. It's every time I go, it's emotional. When I say goodbye, I mean, I'm a 60 year old guy that's in tears saying goodbye to our guides and our outfitters over there. It's something that's kind of hard to describe until people go. But once they go to Africa, it's hard to say, okay, I want to go someplace else. And so southern Africa we've been a number of times. We were there just when Covid kicked in and we weren't sure when we were going to go back. And I've been to Africa four times the last 12 months.
- [28:05]
Ann McGinty
Sounds like you might need to start having a foot permanently based there.
- [28:08]
Andy
I might have to go over there. So I was in Morocco a couple times and I was in Botswana and I ended up going to Tanzania and Mozambique and South Africa just in October.
- [28:18]
Ann McGinty
Incredible. What a life. So when it comes to like designing a new location and a new program that a place you've never done before, what is the process?
- [28:31]
Andy
So we've got an incredibly cool concept on this. So the process used to be that we'd go someplace that we'd like to go and we'd send a scouting team over there and walk the walk, meet all the outfitters. So what we've done now and is that we have what's called a mystery trip. So a guy came up with this idea for a mystery trip. So essentially kids sign up for it on the first day. We open enrollment in August and it sells out the first day it's 12 kids and it's this year it's about $12,000. And what they do is they're going to go to a destination but they're not going to find out. Even though they sign up in August, they're not going to find out until July 8th the following year where that is. And so they're in the Atlanta airport and they'll put a puzzle Together and then they'll take off. And so last year, my daughter was on the mystery trip and they ended up going to Ladakh in India. It's in northern India. It's in the Himalayas.
- [29:23]
Ann McGinty
Oh, my gosh. I know Ladakh. I haven't been there. Tried to go, but yeah.
- [29:27]
Andy
So it is a distance to get there. And they had never been. So they were trekking at, you know, 17, 000ft. We found out the trip was a little too hard, a little too. It didn't fit our vibe. But we've had other mystery trips in Slovenia. Madeira. Madeira's off the coast of Portugal. It's a magical destination and nobody knew where it was. And so when we revealed that, we saw people pulling out their phones going, where's Madeira? And So we have 100, and I think we have 120 kids going to Madeira this summer. And Sylvania's been a great spot. We've been to other places that we thought might work out, like in Chile, but the weather was too harsh during the summer months for us. But that concept has worked out, worked out pretty well. And so we've got an idea, but nobody knows about except the office. And so everybody signs an NDA. Nobody can speak a word of where we're going until July 8th. But that concept has been great. So one of the things that I learned is you don't need a lot of trips. You need the right trips, so you don't have to have everything. So sometimes people go through and think that, oh, you have to have 50 or 70 or 80 trips and no, you don't. But you can scale those trips and make them fine tune and make them better and better. And that seems to have worked really, really well. And so a number of our trips have sometimes as many as nine groups. One trip has 15 different groups that go out during the summer at different times that stagger during the summer. And the Group size is 12 and 2. So 12 kids and 2 leaders. So we don't ever rarely get larger than that. But it's worked out nicely that that's a small group and everybody gets a chance to be with each other and share that experience together. A larger group might water down that whole group experience a little bit.
- [30:59]
Hayes Hitchens
So I know you're in the teen.
- [31:01]
Ann McGinty
And kid Outward Bound business, but would you ever do this for adults?
- [31:07]
Andy
I'll back you up a little bit. So the Outward Bound, we get this all the time. We are not Outward Bound. So Outward Bound, real quick does outdoor wilderness experiences. Okay, so the Outward Bound concept is to knock you down and build you back up. And I did an Outward Bound course, and I did one, but I was not going to do two. Our business is being able to create an experience where kids are challenged but also thrive in that environment. And they love that concept of being able to share a group experience. And so some are more challenging, some are less challenging, but it's all about the group experience. And so we're not ob. And I have to correct a lot of moms on that because we're closer to Knowles than Outward Bound. But even. And so I've really kind of changed post Covid that we've seen the huge surge in US is trekking in Europe or being in again in Africa as opposed to challenging backpacking trip in Colorado or in Idaho or in Alaska. So that's changed a little bit.
- [32:04]
Ann McGinty
I think I just grouped it into Outward Bound because it feels like, well, you're going out and you're having an experience. But I see what you mean. It is different, right?
- [32:13]
Andy
We call it adventure travel for teens. So just adventure travel, which is different than wilderness travel, which is different than a really harsh, hard, physically challenging. And I. I understand the concept behind those other companies. So what I found that kids are getting softer over the last 30 years, and that's true in a lot of ways. And the phone probably has a lot to do with that. But kids are not willing to do the hard things anymore. Some of them are not willing to do that. Adults are not willing to do the hard thing anymore. And so we've seen that. So companies like Knowles and Outward Bound that were doing the hard things are finding it more challenging to be able to find people that want to say yes to that. So for us, can it be challenging? Yes. Can it be fun? Absolutely. Can it be transformative? 100%. And if we have that concept over there about how do they feel when they walk away? Do they say, oh, I never want to do that again. That's not what we want. We want them to be bawling in the airport saying, oh, my gosh, I don't want this to end. And they're crying, and I've seen them can't even breathe. And you're hyperventilating and you need like a brown baggie to breathe into to keep them passing out. That's what I want, and I kind of love it. But it is an experience that we want. When people leave their trip, we'd love for them to come back, but we realize that's not realistic. But we hope that they walk away saying, that was the coolest thing that I've done up to this point in my life. My favorite questions is ask them is what's the best day you've ever had? Your life? And it's interesting to talk to a 22 year old or a 15 year old and can we give them the best day that they've ever had up to that point in their life? And we absolutely can.
- [33:55]
Ann McGinty
That's amazing. And as you were saying, what, what was the best day of your life? I was going through these moments that I can remember. And aside from the key moments like marriage and birth of my children and stuff, it was like being in Gokyo, which is a 16 day hike in Everest National Park. And I think there's something about the awe, like the way your body feels that attaches the memory with just like, I want to go back there.
- [34:24]
Andy
And we realize oftentimes we can't recreate that, but you have that feeling and that memory that you have. And I tell folks all the time, I want them to ideally think about this in a week or a month or a year, but really I want them to think about this in 10 years or 25 years. There's a great book called Die with Zero that a guy recommended to me and it's part of this. The concept is Die with Zero in your bank account because you've given your money away to your inheritance, to your children, you've given money away to charity and you have enough to survive on. But it's also, it's about that was Zero regrets. And I think a lot of times as we get older and I'm seeing this now with my contemporaries, oh, I can't go climb Kilimanjaro because my, you know, I got a bad knee or I can't take the time off. And what this book also talks about is having those experiences when you're younger, when you have your health and you have those opportunities over there that you can really stare at that time because it is harder. My siblings can't do it. I'd like to think I could still do a lot of it, but there's certain things that I can't. But we want kids to realize, hey, have these experiences now while you can. And you will look back and finally say, hey, I did that. So one of the big things that we're dealing with right now is fomo. Fear of missing out for boys. Do you have sons?
- [35:41]
Hayes Hitchens
Oh, yeah. What?
- [35:43]
Ann McGinty
They don't want to leave home because they might miss out with their Friends, Absolutely.
- [35:47]
Andy
And so FOMO is. It's a real thing. So girls are taking over the world. And girls we have. If you look at our number in our office, it's dominated by women. If you look at, you know, the folks that are signing up early, it's girls. The guys will drag their feet. Fear of missing out. And what they're going to miss out on is an experience that they will remember for the rest of their lives. Oftentimes they could do that. So we have to be able to convince them. So we've got a campaign getting ready to get started about what does FOMO look like? And FOMO looks like dancing in the rain in Albania. FOMO looks like, you know, hugging somebody at the summit of Kilimanjaro. FOMO looks like sharing a meal on the side of a river in Idaho. That's what FOMO's like. And so with these kids, being able to do that and realize, okay, I don't do it now, I might not ever do it. And so being able to talk about, you know, that trek that you did at Everest, you remember that when you're 70, 80 years of age.
- [36:41]
Ann McGinty
And finally, yeah, we've talked about. We want to bring the kids there, but our youngest is only nine, and she needs to be just a little bit older to be able to tolerate.
- [36:49]
Andy
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [36:50]
Ann McGinty
How strenuous it is. So let's say a parent wants their kid to go for all of the obvious reasons, but the kid is resistant because of FOMO or because of nervousness.
- [37:02]
Hayes Hitchens
Do you think the parent should push?
- [37:04]
Andy
So parents do push here. A couple things. So, Hunter, my daughter went to a great camp in North Carolina for six years, and it's my favorite girls camp in the South. But I told her she's not going to go back because Earl man owns moon dances. She could go on moon dance for free. She was kicking a little bit, but I said, trust me. She went on nine trips. She has friends from all over the US So I pushed a little bit. I didn't push too much, but I pushed a little bit. Sometimes it needs a little bit of a push, and there's a little bit of a challenge. We're going to keep them safe. We're going to keep them well fed. We're going to keep them in good hands, but we're not going to necessarily keep them comfortable. So they need to learn how to be comfortable when they're uncomfortable. And that's a good lesson in life to be able to have. How do you get comfortable when things are A little bit uncomfortable. And it's not really leaving the comfort zone. There's a great guy named Alex Honnold that he's a famous climber, did with the movie Free Solo. He talks about expanding the comfort zone. So you just kind of stretch what you're comfortable with. And so you're not really leaving that, you're just expanding that. It's good for kids to be able to have that. Now let me also say too that we have some pretty strict guidelines and if folks break the rules, consequences happen. We had two years ago, heard about some kids that snuck out in Thailand and went to a bar and got something to drink. And I heard about it and there were eight kids involved in that. There are three or four kids that were not. As soon as we heard about it, we're gonna send eight home. Found out that we're not just eight. There were nine in the other group that came home. 17 kids were sent home. And that was a good message for us to be able to tell parents is that. And some of these kids were friends with my daughter. And it did not matter at all. And we had parents that called up and said, hey, they only had one sip. It did not matter at all. The rules were this. And we sent 17 kids home and then we immediately sent out a message to everybody else and we had umpteen, you know, responses. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for fulfilling this role over here that you said, hey, this is what we're going to do if you break these rules. And so parents understand that and they want that because we know what's going on with teenagers in a lot of places. But it can't go on when we're responsible for them, when they're in our care. None of that can happen. Let me share also something else that folks want to get involved. Are you in Atlanta? Is that where you live in now?
- [39:20]
Ann McGinty
I'm out on the west coast now.
- [39:21]
Andy
You are?
- [39:22]
Hayes Hitchens
Yep.
- [39:22]
Andy
Well, Atlanta is great. And it's also tough for us because we get a lot of Atlanta kids. And so we freeze a lot of those spots over there for Atlanta kids because we get inundated. If we took all those Atlantic kids, we have too much. And so we open up an enrollment in August. We wait till a certain day. It's like the 25th of August. And then we open it up at 9:00. And then the phones just. Or the phones didn't even blow up anymore. So Internet blows up for us to the point where a lot of trips are full that day for particular cities. And so if you're a 15 year old girl from Atlanta per se, it's hard to get on a trip unless you've been on one before, unless you can find something that might not be your first or your second or your third or maybe even your fourth trip choice. And so we believe, and we found that kids just want to experience moon dance. Not necessarily going to a certain destination or certain activities, but they just want to be with other kids and have this experience. And so it's worked out quite well. But we also have to manage our wait list. And so we've got 250, 300 on a wait list right now and we have space, but we don't. We're waiting for the gas to come in and the gas will come in. We know we've got about 800, 900 guys on board already, but we know when they're going to come in later on. And it's typically January, February, after the holidays and going, oh, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. And that might be a little bit of a push from mom and dad. The girl spots are almost completely full for next summer.
- [40:48]
Ann McGinty
Oh, wow. So then are you still trying to grow this business or are you now just working on efficiencies?
- [40:54]
Andy
A couple things. One, trying to be more efficient in everything that we're doing, which has been nice. I'd like to see it grow a little bit more. But I'm also at the age too when I'm thinking about that transition, that succession over there. And I've been talking to some folks over there who are much more interested in seeing could it grow in the kid market, could it grow in the adult market? And so the adult market is, I've heard this for years, the heck with the kids, what about us? And there is a massive desire to go and do these fun things that the kids are doing, but then to make that commitment is harder. The adult industry is massive. That is an area that we've talked about. If we could really kind of focus on not only fine tuning what the kids are doing, but also start to get into the adult market too, that would be a great opportunity there. That market for us. They're probably 40 to 55 year old parents and my contemporaries. They're all done, they're all aged out, they're all. The kids are in their, their 30s now. They're all grandparents and physically they can't do a lot. But that 40 to 55 year old crowd absolutely can. There's a younger crowd also that may not be married, that may not have kids, that would desire to do some things too. So we're looking at all that, but nothing yet. And I'd love to do this for the rest of my life, but I'm not, I can't. And, and I also realize the business is bigger than me and I'd love to be able to find somebody that is as passionate and wants to take this for another 30 years.
- [42:22]
Ann McGinty
Yeah, I'm sure you will find that ideal person when that ideal company that is going to take over the reins when that time comes. And I'm sure you'll find the right fit. So you mentioned there's opportunity out there. There's clearly space in the market for anyone that's listening in who's aspiring to be an entrepreneur. And maybe they too are an adventure enthusiast or they're a rock climber or a mountain biker or a camp leader, for example. What advice would you give them for creating a business around giving life experiences like this?
- [42:57]
Andy
I think the one thing, there are a lot of dreamers out there. There are a lot of people that have ideas, and a lot of people say, oh, gosh, I'd like to do this and this and this. Not. I've heard it forever. So it's, it's about believing in yourself. It's about, you've got to grind. You can't get knocked down and fail to get back up. You must always get back up. Learning as much about how a small business operates, learning how a larger business operates. I wish I'd taken more courses in business when I was, I was younger, so I had to kind of learn on the fly. This has been at business school over the last 30 years. But what I would say is if you are passionate about something, if you believe in something, if you really want to do it, you'll miss an opportunity if you don't go after it. And my dad missed an opportunity. He regretted until the day that he died that he missed an opportunity to become an entrepreneur. When he was younger, he had family, didn't want to take the risk. He talked about that, you know, just before he passed away. That lesson over there was, was really loud and clear to me is that I might not have known a lot, but I was, I loved kids and I loved the outdoors and I wanted to make a run at it. And if I didn't make it year two, I'd have been okay with it. What would have been disappointing to me is if I never had tried, if I never said, I'm going to try to do this and gotten into something else. And I can't tell you how many other friends that never try. And so I'm not quite sure. Andy, I don't know how I was fortunate to be able to do this. Sometimes I'm on an island and everybody that, that works for me, I adore everybody that works for me. But they're all Gen Z's and so I'm, I'm surrounded by all folks in their 20s, which is I think maybe keeping me a little bit younger. But it's also they are passionate about what we're doing, they're passionate about our business and they're the ones that give me the energy to be able to successfully operate all of this. And so finding some, some really good, smart people that can help you out and you know, you hear it all the time, find people that are smarter than you, that's pretty easy to, you know, to do. There are these young people coming out, are so bright, so dynamic and looking for a purpose to have in life as opposed to chasing that dollar. And there will always be people that are going to chase the dollar. But what we're finding, a lot of the younger individuals coming into the workforce that look at purpose with meaning and want to make something more than just.
- [45:22]
Ann McGinty
A paycheck, well, I think they're shortcutting what a lot of people, at least I feel in my generation, made a mistake with which was we chased money a lot and we're circling back to purpose later. But Gen Z and Gen Alpha looks like they're kind of just keeping it aligned the whole way through. Yeah, it's amazing. So just as a final question here, if you could go back and talk with yourself when you were in your early 20s, what life wisdom would you give yourself?
- [45:53]
Andy
I think I found out and again I talked about it earlier. My grandparents had this camp. I went back as a 19 year old and two days after being there I thought this is what I want to do the rest of my life. And I never left that. I never said I want to do something else. And so following your dream over there, hindsight probably could have taken a couple more courses in college that might have helped me a little bit more. I love my time at Lovett. I loved getting to know the kids, I love getting to know the families. But it didn't prepare me for being an entrepreneur. And so 12 years at Lovett gave me the experience of working with kids and working with people, but not on the business side of it. So as a small business I needed to Learn a lot of that along the way. But also if I'm looking at a 19 year old me and a 67 year old me, I've loved the fact that I've never said no, I never said I'm not going to do this. I don't believe that this is going to work. It was always yes. The toughest part about thinking about succession is kind of leaving what I love doing. That's probably the greatest gift that I've been given is just I wake up every day and I love what we get to do even more so now than it was 30 years ago. Thirty years ago, there were a lot of bumps in the road. They're not as many bumps, but we're just bigger. But it's helped out.
- [47:11]
Ann McGinty
You've really found a magical winning spot because you get fulfillment from this. It energizes you. It really helps kids in their future lives. And you just think about like that unlimited domino that you're setting off. I am so amazed. And the reason why I even thought to reach out to you was we were in the airport and I saw a group of kids wearing Moondance sweatshirts. They must have been coming back for one of these trips. And I was with my family and I was like, I know the guy that started that. And oh my gosh, I'm wonder how it's doing. And then I looked it up and you're everywhere. And I was just like, wow, you, you really did it. And just thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story with us and all of this incredible wisdom.
- [48:03]
Andy
Well, love reconnecting with you and I love telling the story, but even more so, I love reconnecting with you. And thank you for all this. I mean, I. I'm humbled by being able to chat with you. So it's great fun. And please tell your whole family I said hello.
- [48:17]
Ann McGinty
I will. Thanks so much, Hayes. It was so good to talk.
- [48:21]
Andy
So great to talk to you. Thanks, Annie.
- [48:26]
Hayes Hitchens
Today's key takeaways. Sometimes when one dream falls through, it opens the door to another one that may be even better. So stay open to possibilities. These sink or swim moments challenge you to dig deep and discover what you're truly capable of. Some friends will believe in you and some won't. Focus on those who do. Look at the marketing materials for potential competitors when it comes time for you to create your own. If you have a service camp or class for kids, consider reaching out to schools to present your offering. You don't have to understand everything to start a business. It's a learning process. In the beginning, it can feel like survival, but you'll grow through the challenges kids crave. Connection, challenges and fun and communication skills are crucial not just for kids, but for everyone. Over the last 30 years, Hayes has been working with teens and he's noticed that teens have gotten softer over the years, something that he suspects phones may have a lot to do with whether you're a parent or a kid, cell phones are taking over our lives and this discussion is important to protect our futures. Communication skills are incredibly important for life well being and connection to others. Shared experience in person is where real growth can happen, not on a screen. So it's up to us together to recognize what cell phones are doing to our lives and also those of our children. Time is life's biggest competitor. If you live to be 80, you'll have about 30,000 days in your life. How will you make them count? Ask yourself what was the best day of your life? Then consider how you can create more days like that. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You don't have to leave your comfort zone entirely, just expand it. Focus on less and improve the quality of what you do, whether it's offerings, trips or goals. Trust is important for your team, for your subcontractors and for your clients. More is not better. Sometimes focusing on less and just improving on a smaller selection is better. If you have a dream, it's about believing in yourself. You've got to grind. You can't get knocked down and fail to get back up. You must always get back up. In Hay's words, if you are passionate about something, if you believe in something, if you really want to do it, you'll miss an opportunity if you don't go after it. Maybe you'll make it to year two, and maybe you won't. But what if you never try? Say yes, you can do this and believe in yourself. And for a few book recommendations, there's Die With Zero by Bill Perkins, Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Garrido, and Setting the Table by Danny Meyer. That's it for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.