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Josh Davis phD - The Hidden Science of Communication: NEUROLINGUISTIC PROGRAMMING
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- [00:00]
Ann McGinty
Foreign welcome to How I Built My Small business. I'm Ann McGinty, your host and today's episode is not so much about starting a business, but a glimpse into the neuroscience of influence and the power of neuro linguistic programming. My guest is Dr. Josh Davis, Ph.D. in Psychology and Neuroscience from Columbia University. He's the international best selling author of Two Awesome Hours and has an upcoming title, the Difference that Makes the Difference. Josh is the founder of the Science Based Leadership Institute, a sought after keynote speaker and his writing has appeared in Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Psychology Today, Inc. And more. In this interview we explore the fascinating world of neuro linguistic programming. What it is, how it can help us connect, communicate more effectively, lead with greater empathy and shift self limiting beliefs. You'll find links to connect with Josh in the episode's description. Neuro Linguistic programming like can you just for anybody who is not familiar with it, can you just please explain it to us a little bit?
- [01:23]
Dr. Josh Davis
So neuro linguistic programming is a set of best practices that come from psychotherapies that are very good at helping people make changes quickly and in lasting ways. And a lot of the tools can be applied in day to day contexts where you're not doing therapy but you're still wanting to make some change to how you think, feel or act. And it began 50 years ago. There were a whole bunch of new therapies at the time, cognitive therapy, gestalt therapy, family therapy, hypnotherapy. And so you know, these therapists are getting results much quicker. And so a lot of therapists at the time, including my parents, wanted to understand what's going on. And the typical way of going about it was to just go and try to observe and copy what these great pioneers were doing. So in nlp, the people who went to study some of these great pioneers were a linguist and a partner of his. So they were coming at it with a language lens to unpacking the form, not just the content. So instead of just trying to copy, you know, say this or do this in this context, they looked at both verbal and nonverbal patterns in the therapist and in the patients and went around teaching it. And it was very effective. One of the reasons was that they also really unpacked the mindset that makes it work. You know, what are the beliefs that really help you do this? Well, and this is probably the most important piece that sets it apart is that they taught people the process that they used for learning what these patterns were, which is called modeling. So how do you unpack somebody's mental model for what they're doing. So how do we unpack a mental model? There's so much here, and this is kind of the core of what somebody who does NLP is doing, is they're approaching an interaction thinking about, what's this person's mental model? Right. How can I understand it? Right. So some of the things come out in language. And you don't need to be thinking, oh, no, I have to watch everything I'm going to say. It's not like that. It's. Here's an example, I think that makes it seem much more obvious or approachable. There are many things that we say that reflect what can be limiting beliefs. You'll hear me say frequently, it could mean this or it can be this. That's a really important part of making NLP work, is that you recognize you're picking up on a clue that many times is correct, but it doesn't necessarily always correct. I mean, we're humans. Nothing is going to be 100% of the time. So some language patterns that reflect limiting beliefs. So if somebody is talking about, oh, you know what, at this point in my life, I should really be running my own company. This should, should, should, should, should, Right. Okay. So when we talk that way, it could just be a way of talking, but very often it reflects a relationship you have with the task that involves some limiting beliefs. Albert Ellis, one of the great cognitive therapists, he says there are three musts that hold us back. I must do well, you must treat me well, and the world must be easy. Have you ever thought of those as limiting beliefs before?
- [04:20]
Ann McGinty
I can see them as limiting beliefs when you say them that way. Yes.
- [04:25]
Dr. Josh Davis
So often we actually limit ourselves when we're saying, this should be this way. I should have done this, I should. And so if you're listening for that, then you might hear that and you can get curious and you can just kind of explore. Someone says, you know, I should be doing so much more with my kids. Go, oh, okay. What would happen if you didn't? And often it takes people to an interesting place and it's like, well, you know, I'd be. Kind of feel like I'm missing out, but I would have to give up, you know, this work thing that's so important to me. And I, you know, I have a good enough relationship with my kid. So it can help people get to a place where they're either making peace with it or they're choosing a new goal or maybe they're choosing a new relationship with the task. You know what? I get to do more stuff with my kids, school. I want to, I can. And then it's no longer about the pressure. It's like an opportunity. So when you hear certain language patterns that suggest there could be a limiting belief, you can explore it. So that's one way to start to unpack the mental model. And there are many more ways.
- [05:27]
Ann McGinty
I know exactly what you're talking about. I actually, the other night I tried an example of this. Maybe not even realizing that maybe I was using some theories from your book, but my daughter was having a very hard time with an overwhelming amount of emotions. And her, her emotions were controlling her. She's nine. And I pulled her aside and I just said, look, you are you, and your emotions are not you, but your emotions are there. And you can be in control of your emotions or they can be in control of you. But today is your birthday and so you can choose to say, okay over tired, sadness. I see you, you're there, but I'm not going to let you ruin my birthday because I want to be happy today. And it's, it shifted her so instantly just the idea that she could. So is this what you're talking about? When it comes to the way that we think of something, we can change our whole interaction and relationship with it solely by the choice of words that we use. And the way that we think about.
- [06:32]
Dr. Josh Davis
Is possible to do that. And the words can have a very big impact on you. They have to influence the meaning that you make of it. But very often they do. Sounds like you said multiple things to her, so you helped her to reframe what was going on in terms of her having choice as opposed to something happening to her. You also told her you can do this. So that sets her mind down a path of considering the ways she can do it, because you've presupposed it's possible and so you don't have to ask her is it possible? Then she'll get stuck at that point. You jumped ahead of that. You said, you can do this. And then you invite her to think about how she can do it, which is also a language pattern that you can both spot and use in nlp. And that one comes from hypnotherapy. Actually, in terms of like reframing, you know what the meaning is. That's like much more of like a cognitive therapy kind of thing. And you'll find that certainly in nlp, you didn't use these words. But I heard it this way. Let me know if I'm wrong. That, you know, what a shame it would be if you were to allow this to cause you to not have your birthday. It's like, yeah, you can be sad. You also separated the feelings from her. You invited her to consider different parts of herself. And that's something that comes from Gestalt therapy. That's an NLP where you can have what we call parts work, where a part of me feels this way, a part of me feels that way, metaphorically. People can really have a pretty easy time usually taking one perspective, talking to the other, you know, separating them, having them be two separate entities for a while until they can reconcile, and then finding a way to reconcile.
- [08:03]
Ann McGinty
Was wondering if you could tell us what the biggest mistakes are that people make when they're trying to influence or persuade somebody else.
- [08:11]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah, one of them is that we very often get attached to trying to make our point, whatever it is we believe. And we'll put a lot of energy into trying to show that we're right or convince the other person or speak to them on this logical level without realizing that unless they're open to listening, you know, that could have the opposite effect. It could come across as belittling or as suggesting that you don't care what they have to say, or maybe it's just something that they disagree with, their defenses are up. But I think one of the biggest mistakes is that we don't first take the time to earn the right to be heard. Because, yeah, you've got your message, but you're not just communicating a message. You're communicating a message to a person, and that person has to want to listen. You can never make someone think something. You can never make someone do something or feel something. They do that, and they have to want to, or at least be open to it. And so I think that's a big one. If you just make that one shift, I mean, that'll change so much.
- [09:10]
Ann McGinty
So let's say that somebody is open to receiving the information that we're sharing. What is happening in the brain when somebody is changing their way of thinking based on what somebody else is saying?
- [09:24]
Dr. Josh Davis
When people change their beliefs, there are, you know, neural shifts that can happen. You know, if somebody is able to shift into what's called a growth mindset, where they're more open, there's other names for it, like self efficacy believes, but it's some kind of belief that you're capable of developing or doing something, making the change you want to make. And when people are able to do that already, there's different processing happening. In certain regions of the brain that have to do with being more open to actually taking in the information and making use of it. You can't make a change without changing your brain.
- [09:55]
Ann McGinty
How much of our communication is really non verbal?
- [09:58]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah, humans are amazing at picking up on these cues that are. They might even be unconscious. You know, not just non verbal, but I would actually say even within the verbal, there's so much that's not about the words. There's the tone of voice, there's the sarcasm, there's even whether you're matching somebody's accent a little bit. Right. There's so many subtle ways that we communicate this. And anyone who is conscious of code switching in different conversations will know consciously about some of the shifts that we make in order to fit in or to not fit in or to show who we are. But even when you're not conscious of it, we all do it. But then certainly in terms of non verbals, and one of the robust findings that's shown up over time is that when people are in sync, whether it's body posture, movement, rhythm, breathing, tone of voice, when they're in sync in some way. And it can be conceptual things too. Like we feel like we're on the same team, but when they're in sync, they tend to feel there's a greater rapport that we sort of click and there's this trust, this openness to listen. And when people are not in sync non verbally, then they tend to have less rapport. It's not 100% of the time, but it's a tendency that kind of shows up. One thing I can add to that is that you can never know what any one nonverbal means. And I think that's a mistake that people will sometimes make. Crossing the arms does not always mean that someone feels like they're putting distance between you. But what it does mean is that something has happened. So I would encourage people to notice, oh, something nonverbal just happened, and get curious, what is that? Why does something just shift?
- [11:33]
Ann McGinty
Yeah, the non verbal communication is fascinating to me because I feel like some people naturally are just great at it. Like, I'm sure, you know, I mean, you study this. If somebody walks into a room and they just command attention, naturally, people sort of flock to them.
- [11:48]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah.
- [11:49]
Ann McGinty
What is it that they are doing? Like, how can we all learn from that situation?
- [11:55]
Dr. Josh Davis
So first of all, I love the way you phrase that question. If there is somebody who does that, we can learn it. So that's one of these kind of presuppositions of nlp, Neuro linguistic programming. And the reason for that is because we can try to understand their mental model. So that person has certain beliefs about who they are and whether they belong and so forth that are going to influence and what the rules are. Right. And that's going to influence how they stand, how they interact, how they show up, who they look at. Right. So those things will influence it. They also have certain behaviors. We can learn to say, okay, I like the way that person sort of walks in the room and pauses. Let me try to do that. Or they look around thinking, who do I want to talk to? Right. And you can read it on somebody's face often. But even if you can't imagine going into a room with that attitude, your nonverbals will be different in those two cases in terms of who you look at, whether you stand up straight or whether you're slouched. And also, your body posture affects your own emotional state. Or it can. So what I would say is picture that person in your mind, and then maybe it's you in certain contexts and not in others, but really unpack that. Let's do that. And that's. That's kind of at the essence of NLP also, is let's model people and discover what it is that they're doing that we might want to learn from. And in this case, the things that could influence them owning the room like that could be their identity, their beliefs, their values, their capabilities, their behaviors, you know, or even how they interact with the environment, where they show up and when. So there's so many things that we could learn to unpack. And I think once you unpack that anybody could then take those pieces and find elements that would work for them.
- [13:40]
Ann McGinty
If anybody did take those elements. So let's say that somebody was lacking in a bit of confidence and they tended to sort of slouch their shoulders a little bit. Are you saying that if they were to model the behavior and actually, like, stand more erect with their shoulders down and back, that they would feel more confident or exude more confidence or both?
- [14:02]
Dr. Josh Davis
Probably both. And I would certainly encourage them to experiment with that. And when I say experiment, it's because ultimately, whatever meaning it has for you can be different. So for one person, they might feel like they're fake, and for another person, they might feel relaxed. Right. And so that's an important distinction, which is why I also would encourage them not just to take on the posture. And. And I do think typically it would be something where your posture is relatively Straight, your hips are back, your head is up, you tend to be looking at the person you're speaking with most of the time. But I would also encourage them to really think about these beliefs that they're walking in with and how they're thinking about themselves and to kind of explore this question before they walk in. You know, what do I want to get out of this? Not what do they think of me or who do I want to talk to or what's interesting to me or what would I like to learn? That a lot of times when we don't exude that confidence, we're very caught up worrying about what others think. And when we shift our focus onto what we have to bring to the table, a lot of the posture stuff follows. So while I would coach them to, to do some of those postural things, or at least to play with it, not a hundred percent of the time, but to play with it, I would also want to empower them with these beliefs that will make it flow naturally, make those postural movements fit.
- [15:25]
Ann McGinty
Yeah. And for people who maybe they are currently being too influenced by the way that other people think, if they have a hard time with reversing it back to what you're saying, which is just to think more about, like, what is it that I want, what am I bringing to the table? And make it more about themselves. But they are lacking in that ability. Do you have any suggestions or ideas to help them? Breakthrough?
- [15:56]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah. Well, can you? It's interesting you say they're lacking in that ability. So I want to ask more. Do you have a specific thing in mind?
- [16:03]
Ann McGinty
I'm thinking of teenagers only, mainly because I have one. And so I see this age group develop. And I'm very observant. When I see body language in the teens, it's very easy to see when they're lacking in self esteem or self worth or confidence. And it can be so drastic from one day to the next.
- [16:23]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah. Well, it's interesting. So, you know, we often say to people, you should just, you know, you need to be more confident. But how do you just be more confident? Right. You can enter the system anywhere. You can make bodily changes, you can make thought changes, you know, feeling changes, goal changes, in kind of in a therapy setting. And this is something that you'll see in many forms of therapies, but certainly in nlp, you find it all over the place that, you know, we live in these social systems. And unless you're addressing the system and what's stopping you, then you're never going to actually make the change. There is something pushing back. And in this case, a teenager is at risk of not being cool. Right. And so if they come across and they're suddenly standing differently than all their friends. Right. That's one of the signals, at least in many American groups. I don't know if this is global, but if it's not working, then it's just, okay, let's get curious. Why not? Or how can we build on or what else would have to shift to enable it? You know, when I teach public speaking, one of the things that often comes up is I'll encourage people. And this is just at the end, you know, once they've done all the important stuff, but to experiment with just behaving in some ways that are, you know, more extreme than they might have otherwise. Right. And they're just like, oh, my God, like, I must have looked ridiculous. Right. Or you must have been so obvious. And to the audience, it was like, either I didn't notice. Right. Or no, it's just like a different side of you. I liked it. It just made it more interesting. And so it's not actually as risky as many of us fear. While people do notice it and pick up on it, it's also not as risky because they make sense of it. And they don't just see you in that moment. They have a larger context for you. And if they don't have a larger context for you, then it doesn't matter. Then they can just think of you as confident.
- [18:04]
Ann McGinty
Yeah. So with your book, the difference that makes a difference, what are you hoping? What do you want to see this book do?
- [18:13]
Dr. Josh Davis
I love nlp. I have so much fun teaching it and using it myself. There's so much more possibility to change and to take on new skills than I think many of us realize and to even enjoy the process. You know, I'm someone who. I really did not like writing. I avoided it. I really. I. You could maybe even say I hated it until in my mid-30s. And now I love writing. And I've written a couple of books, and one of them was an international bestseller. This one hopefully will be, too. You know, it's coming out in July. Like, I enjoy the process, so it's a different experience than it used to be. Like, these kinds of changes can happen. We all have had these major shifts, and it's just like, I know it's possible. I've seen it so many times. I've gotten to be part of it so many times, you know, in teaching nlp. And so this stuff There's a lot of people who aren't going to do the work to take it and translate it into their own lives, but it absolutely can be. So we've tried to make it very accessible and say, you know, here's the idea, even if you don't have an NLP background, here's the tools, here is the belief broken down like one by one how you can use it. You know, reflect on these questions and you're using it already, you know, so you can be then applying it outside of a therapeutic context. I just think a lot more people should know about it. I think because of my connections to research, I'm able to present it to people in a way where they can see it as like, oh, okay, yeah, sure, there's nothing weird about it. It's just like this reasonable stuff, like, and it should work in most contexts. Let me try it. A lot of it is new for people. You know, there's tons of self help and change and development stuff out there. But I think a lot of it's new because, because of what it comes from, because it's 50 years of time tested psychotherapy tools, but also because of this linguistic perspective on it and also because it provides the tool of modeling. So I'm hoping that this just like, you know, I want to reach as many people as I can with it and then they can just start making the changes they want to make.
- [20:04]
Ann McGinty
What kind of changes can they make? I mean, is this anything and everything or is this particularly self limiting beliefs and that kind of a change?
- [20:13]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah, I mean, there's certain physical limitations. Right. I'm not going to ever be on a professional sports team. You know, I'm too old. Right. It's just not going to happen. But when it comes to ways that people think or are capable of feeling or their behaviors with other people, the ways that we communicate or interact or the ways that we talk to ourselves, communicate with ourselves. When you start getting to that space, you're pretty much talking about almost everything that a person can do. And I don't see any reasons why you couldn't make changes to just about any of it. You know, once you drill down to what's the difference that would make the difference. Yeah, some of it's going to be about limiting beliefs, some of it. You know, I mentioned writing. That's a creative skill and that was through modeling and then getting to a point where you're able to approach goals more effectively, planning ahead, where you can kind of manage your emotions. You know, I have friends who Will say it's like, well, I don't want to just try to, like, think it away. Think away my problem. That's not serving you if you do that. It's all about what would serve you. Feel bad if you want that serves you sometimes, right? But learn to use it. Learn to use it so that you become very effective very quickly, you know, and that you don't feel bad all the time. I don't see limits to what you could do in any meaningful context, what you could change with it.
- [21:34]
Ann McGinty
So for myself and also for listeners, can you give us an example, something with more context and kind of walk us through, like, what the person did to actually use NLP to head towards their goal. So it could be anything. I mean, you know, what's the number one thing that Americans suffer from is stress. So do you have an example you can give us so we can more clearly understand the methodology?
- [21:59]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah, yeah, sure. One of the ones that Greg offers in the book is, you know, he's talking to a member of a jury who's believes that just no lawyers can be trusted. And so he explores that. He hears this in the language, you know, like, lawyers cannot be trusted. None. And so he starts to explore like, okay, well, is it really true? None ever, you know, and then can we agree maybe, like, what about lawyers who are, you know, working pro bono or who are, you know, trying to serve certain populations, you know, and they're not getting paid very well, you know, or public defenders, you know, greedy and just doing it, you know, it's like, well, no, so. So we can agree that some lawyers are not. Even if not. So he's then moved from this universal quantifier, all, every, right? And when people have that in mind, it tends to be a limiting belief. Every, all, always, never, right? And so he helps to just whittle it down to what is almost necessarily more accurate that there are some counter examples. And then he's still, you know, he's still got to ask the guy to take on faith that he might not be. But this is like, so would it be okay to be open to the idea? He's not asking him to believe it, but would it be okay to be open to the idea that I am one of those lawyers who's not just greedy? And the guy's like, okay, right. You know, so recognizing that belief change is seldom like a sudden jump, but for other kinds of changes, we're happy to make steps. Why not beliefs? So a belief change, the form of a belief change, this would be another NLP thing is that people tend to start by becoming open to doubting. Then they might move to becoming open to believing, then they might move to believing. But it's seldom that they'll just jump straight from believing one thing to believing another thing. And so often your first step is to invite people to become open to doubting or for a time would you be open to acting as if you believed this just to see what happened. And a lot of times people are.
- [23:42]
Ann McGinty
Willing to be open, right? Maybe convincing somebody to be open is an additional challenge.
- [23:49]
Dr. Josh Davis
Convincing someone to be open is itself. And so there. Meet them where they are before you try to get them to follow. We call it pacing and leading. Kind of go at their pace and then lead them to wherever you are. So if somebody is, you know, saying we should be, you know, increasing income tax and other persons, we should decrease it. So how do you get them to be open? So if one person is really like, kind of like got a lot of energy behind it and they're angry and you're trying to go the other way and you're just being like, and you're trying to be like really calm and reserved, another outside observer might look at that and be like, oh well, the calm person is the one I'm going to listen to because their emotions are not clouding their judgment. But if you're trying to talk to the person who's really emotional and you're doing that, you're communicating to them non verbally. I am nothing like you. I do not get where you're coming from. Your emotions have no justification, right? You're just basically shutting them down in every way you can. So you know, when somebody is doing that to you, do you like, you want to shout louder to like you're like, no, you need to hear this, right? It doesn't get you to calm down. So meet them where they are, have some energy about it, acknowledge how frustrating it is. Like, talk about how it makes sense that they would be so mad, Meet them there, start to form that connection, start to build that, like get in sync, build that rapport and then lead them towards, you know, and that's why we maybe want to look at some other options too, right? You know, maybe they're so entrenched you won't get anywhere. But you might get them to be open to doubting or at least open to not needing to be angry at you about it. Right? And you can have more of a rational discussion about it afterwards.
- [25:27]
Ann McGinty
One person is more or less the one who's in charge of leading the change though, or who is maybe the leader or more open minded, the one who is the bigger person, so to speak.
- [25:42]
Dr. Josh Davis
In nlp, we would say that the person who is most flexible is the one who's likely to have the most influence. Which is a little counterintuitive because there's certain physical systems where you think like, if I'm belligerent, aren't I going to get my way? Everybody has to bend to me. You know, maybe there's a few examples where like a one time thing you get your way, but then it's all this like fallout, you know. But in most contexts the person with the most flexibility is going to exert the most influence. So if I'm able to be flexible in terms of meeting you where you are, or I'm able to be flexible in terms of I thought I was going to need to be getting you to believe something. Now I'm just going to be getting you to be open to believing something. If I can try six different ways of making a change, I probably have a better odds than if I can only try one way.
- [26:28]
Ann McGinty
So in the years that you've been doing this, are there patterns of changes that you see people wanting to make using nlp?
- [26:37]
Dr. Josh Davis
Well, it's interesting, I hadn't thought about that. One category has to do with a big goal that, you know, I want to write a book or do something in my career. Another category has to do with family relationships, you know, repairing something or moving past something that's really been getting in the way with kids or parents or siblings or something like that, or partner. Another category has to do with healing the past that are getting in the way now. They're no longer serving them. But it's patterns that they've learned or beliefs they have. Those are three kind of really big chunks, I guess is basically work, relationships and health essentially is sort of what I've just tapped into. Which are the three categories of change usually that you'll see in books on this stuff. It's not a tool that's just limited to one thing. Even just whenever there's a resistance issue, whether it's internal resistance, I'm resisting doing something, or external resistance, I'm in a negotiation or something like that. There's this wonderful tool from NLP which is to search for the positive intention behind the resistance. So you presume that there is a positive intention behind it first of all, which is an aha for many people, that there is always, not just sometimes there is always a positive intention that every Behavior has a positive intention. Even when someone's being a jerk, they are trying to get something out of it. A bully often can make friends with other bullies or can try to make themselves feel better. Right? Or to patch up a hole in their self worth by bullying. It doesn't work very well for them usually. It often makes it worse, but that's what they're trying to do. It's the positive intention. So if, if you're looking for that positive intention, that's the thing that needs to be addressed to move past the resistance. So as long as you can find a satisfying way to address that positive intention while making some change, it might not be exactly the change you had in mind at first, but it might be. But then you are so much more likely to either move past the internal resistance or the external resistance. What I try to do then is to speak to that positive intention. If your knowledge of that where they're trying to get to you can have more compassion when you speak with them. You are less likely to get riled up. You are more likely to be able to talk about what matters to them. You're more likely to be able to couch your suggestions in terms of what matters to them. Right. You're more likely to be able to empathize and be there to support them when they're not making progress on that. Right. You're more likely to say, I also want to make progress on this and I think you're more likely to make progress on it. If you do this instead of belittling people, it just opens up all those possibilities. If they feel like they can't get this positive intention met, that's a major source of resistance. That's that internal system we were talking about before. It's just like that's going to keep pushing back. A lot of times I find people actually know that their behavior is inappropriate or harmful, but they do it because it's the best way they know how, given their current understanding and set of beliefs and skills and so forth. That's another NLP presupposition. We invite people to always just kind of act as if it's always true. People always behave in the best way they know how, given the context and the circumstances.
- [29:49]
Ann McGinty
So like, what about even in just one time, first time ever interaction conversation, Is this a tool that you use in those circumstances? Or is this mainly for the development of relationships that are longer lasting?
- [30:03]
Dr. Josh Davis
I guess when I'm teaching, I'll often have situations where I'm meeting people for the first time and then I very much. I go in with very much have this in mind. And so if anybody asks a question, I'm looking for the positive intention behind it. And I think it helps me to speak to the question more effectively and not get annoyed with them if it's like a question that's just been asked or something like that. Right. If I'm not teaching, I haven't just mentally prepared myself for that. And so I don't always have it top of mind. You know, with the kids, all day long, they do something. It'd be really great for me to have that in mind 100% of the time. But I don't always.
- [30:36]
Ann McGinty
Can you give us a peek into your classroom? So what's an example of a lesson or an assignment that you might give to your students?
- [30:43]
Dr. Josh Davis
Oh, yeah, sure. So let's say you're in sales, right? And you're going to be presenting. A lot of times we go into it without really having thought through explicitly how we want to evaluate ourselves. And there's one thing, like, I want to get the sale. Well, the sale is not in your control, like getting the sale. And so if it's just getting the sale, well, it's like, okay, well, or maybe I want them to have a good experience. How are you going to possibly know if they had a good experience? Sometimes it's obvious. Right. But a lot of times you can't even really know. And people can have a wonderful experience without showing it. So we want to shift towards expectations that are much more appropriate for you, being able to both know that you're moving ahead and evaluate yourself appropriately. Because part of what happens is, one of the founders of NLP said this disappointment takes adequate planning. So you have to have expected something to happen and it didn't to be disappointed. And so often we come out of these meetings and we feel disappointed. But why? It's often not appropriate or it's something we can't put our finger on. And we don't have to do that to ourselves. We can be much more thoughtful about what we're going in with. Let's say I'm teaching a class. I'll often find that I would be disappointed if they don't love me. Right? Okay, but is that what I'm doing it for? It's like, sure, everybody loves adoration. I'm happy with adoration, but that's certainly not the only thing I'm doing it for. Unless I pause and check myself and say, wait a second. What would be a more useful thing for me to expect? Out of this. Well, whether or not they love me is something I'll never know. And it's not in my control. But what is in my control is to make sure that I present this tool, let's say this tool about expectations in a way that everybody really understands the logic behind it and how to use it. And I give a really good demonstration, right? So that could be what I want to expect to myself. If I do that, I'm happy. And of course anybody can see I'm more likely to succeed in getting them to love me if I do that, right? It's like, because I'm going to teach better, but it's, but it's not on my mind anymore. It's like it's about that. And then I also can feel really good about the teaching and my mind is focused on the right things. So one of the things I'll invite people to do then is I'll give them several, like, tools that I've developed that help them very quickly identify what expectations am I showing up with and what would be more useful expectations to have. Like, how do I shift those pertaining to myself, pertaining to what the audience is going to get out of this, pertaining to like, just things that might make me feel like I'm disappointed that I haven't really checked, you know, and then they work on discovering those and setting more effective ones. So that would be an example of something that I'll do in a class.
- [33:17]
Ann McGinty
And then when you said expectations, I was wondering, is this also part of the NLP model? So, like, is lowering one's expectations actually a useful tool?
- [33:29]
Dr. Josh Davis
Ah, right. So I don't think so, but there are contexts where I do think so. And I would say that is different from the idea of setting more useful expectations, because lowering the expectations, I think has to do with not expecting as much success as opposed to shifting your focus to what do I want to get out of this or what do I want to learn or what am I trying to accomplish? I personally don't think that I could manage to have 30 business development calls with new contacts in a month. Right. And if I lower that expectation to four new business development calls, like new, like high quality leads in a month, well, that's smart. In my case, it's more within my control. Right. So that's a context where just lowering it actually makes a lot of good sense because I'm finding something that's more appropriate. Now there's, there's times when having something outrageous as your goal is fine, because on some level you have that self efficacy, that belief that you are going to find a way and it kind of, it energizes you. Right. Because it's all about the mental model, how it's serving you. So in those contexts, sure, go for it. In many contexts that wouldn't work. No matter what you're doing, the key is what is useful. Right. If you would be disappointed because something turned out and it wasn't actually the thing that you wanted to be focused on, change your expectation. Right. If it's not going to serve you, if it's not going to motivate you in the right ways, then change that expectation. That's the real critical, not lowering it. Yeah. That can be an instance of making it more useful, but that's going to be only sometimes what's going to be more useful is the key.
- [35:06]
Ann McGinty
So you work as a teacher, you also run a business. Right?
- [35:10]
Dr. Josh Davis
Right. Which is a vehicle for teaching. So they're not disconnected. Yeah. So the Science Based Leadership Institute is my business. And there I'm really focused on taking a principle from psychology or neuroscience, teaching it, and then how can you apply it in terms of the experience of a student? Very much. I'm still trying to do the same thing where let's say we are talking about expectations. There is a good deal of overlap between the two. There's many things that I will teach, but I'll go into a little bit more about the science of it as a way that I'm motivating it and therefore what we should do. And I think that speaks to a lot of people who want to know that, you know, this is logical. This stuff is really kind of like, okay, yeah, it makes sense. This is true on average for most people. I always want to do just enough though of that to get people to understand what we're doing and why. And then it's really about, let's apply it to your challenges and actually make some changes right now on the things that you're working on that you're struggling with, like today. Make some change that may be lasting, that may be the difference that makes the difference for the rest of your life. I've had experiences like that. I know we all have had experiences. One day something does change and it lasts, even if for years it didn't. So what is that difference? And I think NLP and a lot of these science based tools can get you there a lot faster. So Science Based Leadership Institute is what we're doing there is teaching, but it's in a corporate context when it comes to the NLP stuff. Some of the things that Greg and I and some others are doing is we're specifically taking it and doing NLP for lawyers, for example, or NLP for financial advisors. Like really specifically, hey, let's apply it in your context.
- [36:51]
Ann McGinty
This is a lot to absorb. It's a lot to learn and to understand. It's a very deep way of thinking. That's brilliant that you're doing it that way because then it makes it so clear and probably easier to grasp the concepts. So just to wrap up a little bit here, if you could go back and have a conversation with yourself when you were in your early 20s, what would you say? What life wisdom would you impart?
- [37:16]
Dr. Josh Davis
I would say you're doing the best you know how right now, given the circumstances and your abilities right now. Love yourself, enjoy it, try things out. I think one of the main reasons would be so that that Josh could let go of feeling embarrassed about previous years as we go. If you get better at anything, you're better than you were or at least you have different values. So just free him of some of that burden by understanding. And really it's. If you knew them what you knew, then you would do it exactly the same necessarily. And that's okay.
- [37:54]
Ann McGinty
Yeah. It's like have compassion for yourself, not just others, but for yourself too.
- [38:00]
Dr. Josh Davis
Yeah. And I think it'll probably follow that you'll have more compassion for others as a result.
- [38:04]
Ann McGinty
Yeah. Josh, thank you so much for coming on today and chatting with us. I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to share with where people can connect with you.
- [38:12]
Dr. Josh Davis
I mean, in terms of websites, there's nlpdifference.com and there's science based leadership.com and you can sign up for newsletters at either one. At Science Based Leadership, there's Brain Basics for Business is kind of the format for that. And at the, you know, NLP Difference, it's about, you know, how do I make use of NLP tools my day to day life? So the book is called the Difference that Makes a difference. It's July 8th. Release and reach out. I would love to hear from you.
- [38:41]
Ann McGinty
Today's key takeaways Influence begins with openness. Before you try to persuade or share an idea, pause and ask, is the other person open to hearing this? We can't force someone to think or feel a certain way, but we can earn the right to be heard by building connection. First communication is so much more than words. Tone, rhythm, body language, even subtle cues like matching someone's speech Patterns. They all shape how your message is received. We feel more trust when we're in sync, even in the small ways. A non verbal cue like crossed arms, doesn't always mean what you think. Instead of jumping to conclusions, get curious. What might have caused that shift? Confidence can start with your body. Try to stand tall, shoulders back and take a full breath. You might be surprised. Not only may others perceive you differently, but you may actually feel different too. Posture can influence emotion, and if that doesn't quite do it for you, stay curious and open. Keep experimenting with different confidence boosting tools. Notice the people who seem naturally confident. What are they doing? Could you try a version of that yourself? If someone else can do it, you can learn it. Josh reminded us that modeling, studying how others move, think and behave is a powerful way to grow. What beliefs or behaviors could you try on and adapt to make your own? When in doubt, shift the focus. Confidence often disappears when we're stuck wondering what others think of us. Instead, try asking, who do I want to connect with? What excites me here? What do I have to offer? Words shape our experience. Saying I should or I must can be limiting. Reframe those thoughts into I want to or I choose to. It's a simple change that opens up freedom and ownership. You are not your emotions. Feeling nervous? Anxious? That's a part of you, not all of you. Let your confident self take the lead. Emotions are signals, not your identity. Look for the positive intention behind resistance, whether it's internal hesitation or external conflict. Ask what positive purpose might this behavior be trying to serve? This shift in mindset opens the door to compassion and real change. Disappointment often comes from unspoken or unrealistic expectations. So check in. What am I expecting from this situation? Is that useful? Flexibility can impact influence. The person who is most adaptable is often the most influential. Not because they overpower, but because they stay curious, adjust and keep moving forward. And lastly, you're doing your best with what you know right now. Be gentle with yourself and your past self. Growth means we evolve, and that's something to celebrate, not regret. That's it for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.