← How I Built My Small Business
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- [00:00]
Laura Wachtel
I wish I discovered improv younger. You know, I didn't discover it till my 30s.
- [00:12]
Ann McGinty
Welcome to how I Built my Small business. I'm Ann McGinty and today we're talking with Laura Wachtel about how improv can make life and work better. The principles of improv, like saying yes and thinking on your feet and embracing the unexpected, can transform how you communicate, lead, and handle challenges. Laura is the owner of Zipline Improv, where she's bringing improv out of the theater and into the real world, helping individuals, businesses, schools and communities use play to sharpen listening, build connection, and get out of their heads. You can find a link through to her business in the episode's description.
- [01:01]
Host
Laura, thanks for coming on the show.
- [01:04]
Laura Wachtel
Thanks, Anne. Happy to be here.
- [01:07]
Host
So tell us, how did you first get into improv?
- [01:12]
Laura Wachtel
Oh, my goodness. Okay, so I was honestly a super shy and self conscious person most of my life. And I started an improv class because a friend of mine did it. And the way she talked about it, I didn't want to do it, but I had the sense that I should do it. Like there was something there I had to explore. So that was almost 20 years ago. And I went and it was just so hard to do, but it was so much fun. And to be honest, it was hard for me for a while because I was a very like perfectionists. And a lot of improv is you have to get through that. So it was a. It was a little bit of a haul for me, but I stuck with it and it totally changed my life and I totally stopped being shy and self conscious. It was super, super freeing. So here I am 20 years later.
- [02:05]
Host
What about it makes it fun?
- [02:08]
Laura Wachtel
Well, there's a lot of things. One is you're connecting with other people who are in your position. Like, everybody's a little nervous in the beginning because we don't know what to expect. And there's also this misconception that improv is about being the funniest, quickest, cleverest, most outgoing person in the room. And it's not. There are improv styles that people do that. But I trained at Bats Improv in San Francisco and I teach sort of that lineage, if you will, which is improv is about teamwork. It's about listening and responding and allowing the funny to come naturally without forcing it.
- [02:54]
Host
When you say it is about teamwork, can you explain that further? Like, how exactly is teamwork a part of improv?
- [03:03]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah, so it's. If it were one person, it would basically be stand up right but with more than one person. What we have to do is build our stories together. So in order to do that, we have to be open to one another. We have to listen carefully so that we can respond to what they're saying. We have to be willing to drop our own agenda, our own stories, if things aren't going in that direction. We have to be willing to be present in the moment with our partners and be like, oh, this is happening. Okay, I'm going to add to that. I'm going to build on to that.
- [03:39]
Host
Can you describe a little bit more and demystify the experience for anyone who's listening in? Because, for example, with me, yesterday was the first time that I've ever participated in an improv class. And it was with you? For anyone that's listening, yeah. And people would describe it to me before going. And yet I still had all of this nervousness and anxiety for what to expect. But when I got there and we started doing. Doing the different games and loosening up a bit, I also realized, like, how much fun it was and what the benefit was of it. So can you demystify that for listeners? Make them feel like they're there without being there?
- [04:27]
Laura Wachtel
I understand what you're saying. It's really. People are. We're afraid of being on the spot, which I totally get. And because that was me as well, I teach knowing that to be true. I've taught improv for introverts, for instance. So basically a huge part of it is demonstrating that we can all just be silly together and laugh and above all, permission to make mistakes. And in fact, a lot of the games, the warmups and exercises we do are designed so that we can't easily get it right so that we can practice just water off a duck's back or whatever. And we're not putting people in the middle of the room and saying, okay, now be a cowboy or whatever. We're all playing together. So it's an experiential thing of being in the soup together. And I had a student tell me one time, it's not that I'm not uncomfortable, but now I'm more comfortable with being uncomfortable. So it very quickly builds a sort of sense of. Of things being okay. Self confidence starts to build and people really bond because they're in it together.
- [05:45]
Host
And in your personal experience, since you were shy, you said to start, and now you're doing improv as a career, what was that path like for you, the journey? When did you start to open up and feel relaxed in that kind of an environment. And what was it that made you feel like that?
- [06:06]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah, well, it took me several years to be willing to perform. You know, when I started, I was like, I'm doing this for me. I'm never going to perform. I'm never going to teach. And one of my teachers, real mentor really, Rafe Chase from Bats Improv, he invited me to do a student show with him with some other students. And so that was a few years in, and I did that. And it was scary and exhilarating and all that stuff. But from then on, I just kept performing little by little, and I was still just scared for a long time. But when you do anything repeatedly, you start to get used to it. And I think that thing happened to me where I just got more comfortable with being uncomfortable because nothing bad ever happened, right? And you just build this muscle of. Of trust in yourself and your fellow. The teaching took longer. When I moved back to Sonoma county from San Francisco, I was further away from my improv community. So it was actually a friend of my dad kept nudging me to teach a class. I want to take a class, teach a class. And I was finally like, okay, fine, I'll teach a class. And from there, people just kept coming. So it was sort of an accidental business. I just. I started it by request. I didn't know it was going to keep going. And in the beginning, it sort of ebbed and flowed. Some people would stay and keep taking classes. Other. Some people would leave, and then more people would come. And then people just started staying, and I had to add another class, and then I had another. Add another class and another class. And so now I have a. A bunch of classes.
- [08:00]
Host
Who would you say that improv is really for? Like, what kind of person out there can benefit from taking improv?
- [08:10]
Laura Wachtel
So it feels kind of corny to say this, but improv is honestly for everybody. So you have people who are interested in improv or interested in performing, and that's one set. Then there's people who are curious because they hear a lot about improv, and so they want to check it out, and then they get addicted. And then there's people who are, you know, like the. The me people who have heard about sort of the life tools that improv can help with, like building confidence, public speaking, all kinds of people who come just to sort of explore themselves and what. What their possibilities are and what improv might do for them. So I might have a class mixed with all these kinds of people. And because there's an element of starting to get comfortable and okay with making mistakes and trying things. And, you know, we do this thing where if we make mistakes, we go woo hoo and move on, which you learned yesterday. And it feels silly to do it first. And then after a while, it just becomes really natural and we just say woo hoo and we move on. And we move on and we move on. And so we're building this muscle of. Of accepting ourselves however we show up.
- [09:32]
Host
I can definitely say that even going and attending felt like I was expanding my comfort zone. And then being there, you know, my friend walked in and she. She just started laughing because she could see the anxiety coming off of me, which isn't something that she normally sees. And she just thought that was hilarious. If anyone is. Is listening in, they're like, I just don't think that improv is for me. I don't know, they feel skeptical or overly shy. What would you say to them?
- [09:59]
Laura Wachtel
First of all, I know what that's like, and trust yourself. You've all got it in you. And we're not throwing people up on stage to do scenes. Right. We're doing games that relax us and get into it, and you start laughing and that becomes contagious and you start laughing more. And it's so interesting because I just. I can remember that feeling of dread. And like, never in a million years. I mean, if I had a dollar for every time someone said I could never do that, I would be retired and wealthy. Except that I wouldn't because I love teaching improv. But you will really be surprised. It's a very rare person who doesn't enjoy it. And we never know till we try. It's not what people think it is. What people think it is is what I do with my colleagues on stage. Right. So we're performing, we're getting suggestions from the audience. We're doing short scenes, we're doing what we call long form, full length improvised plays and stuff like that is not what beginning students are doing. Beginning students are playing together. It's like having a little game night with friends is what it is.
- [11:11]
Host
I think it would be a really fun event or party to have this facilitated with a group of friends. I just can imagine how funny it would get and how quickly.
- [11:22]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah, absolutely.
- [11:23]
Host
You know what I thought was super interesting was when you had us go around and tell the story of our names.
- [11:30]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah.
- [11:30]
Host
Because there were, I don't know, maybe about a dozen of us or something. And so we're each given, what, 30 seconds or a minute to just say what our name is. But then to say something that will give context to everybody else in the circle. And after we did that, I remembered every single person's name. But in a normal setting, if I were to meet 12 people and just get their names, I don't think I would remember necessarily.
- [11:57]
Laura Wachtel
Isn't that funny? That's one of my favorites. We can learn so much about each other from just our names and the story we choose to tell about it. You know, it could be the literal meaning of the name or a nickname that you were called instead or something you didn't like about your name growing up or whatever. And you're right, it does sort of solidifies that person for us right away.
- [12:23]
Host
Yeah. And I think it deepens the connection a little bit. There is something about the story that maybe takes that pressure off of needing to remember the name, because now you have the story to help support that. But most of the people who are listening in have probably never done improv. They, I imagine, know it from Whose Line Is It Anyway? But that's not what we're talking about. So how would you describe the core principles of what you're hoping people who come to your class take away?
- [12:52]
Laura Wachtel
The core principles of improv, as anyone who does know a little about improv knows, is the phrase yes. And so. Yes. And whether an improv or life is like such a game changer? Because in improv, what it means is somebody says something to us, which is. It's what we call making an offer. Anything that somebody does is making an offer to us, and we say yes to it, and then we make an offer back. So we might just say yes, which is great. But if we make an offer back, then we're not putting the onus of the work on our partner. We are giving them something to work with as well. So anybody can take any tools from improv and apply them to their life in some way or another. Getting on board with one another is another thing. So saying yes, it doesn't mean we say yes. If somebody says, go walk in front of that bus. Right. It's like, yes, and I will die. It's not about that. It's about sort of a culture of yes and hearing one another and responding to one another. There are very practical reasons in life to say no to things, but the overall idea of being open to things, really listening and responding back and giving something back is a real core heart of improv. And what I said earlier of letting go of our agenda. So I might have a really strong idea about something. But at improv I need to hear what you're offering as well and not push my agenda. So together, if we're both doing that, we find the path to the story. And I think in life or work, you can use these tools to find your way in whatever process you're dealing with.
- [14:49]
Ann McGinty
How?
- [14:49]
Host
What do you mean by that?
- [14:51]
Laura Wachtel
Well, so say I'm doing a corporate training and one of the issues of the team I'm working with is a reluctance to take risks. You know, they're afraid of getting shut down. You know, obviously one improv session isn't going to fix the issue, but you can plant seeds. So in that case, maybe the culture for the leaders who are, who are shutting down ideas to be willing to listen. Improv is largely about trust, right? So the deeper we go into improv, the more vulnerable we want to get so that we can create together. And by vulnerable, I don't mean, oh, I have to sit here and tell you something personal about my life. No, vulnerable is being willing to do what is needed in that moment. So in a scene, vulnerability might just be accepting an offer and letting go of my idea. Or it might be, oh, this scene requires me to get upset or to laugh hysterically. Who knows, in the workplace, being vulnerable might be presenting an idea or speaking up in a meeting and being willing to take that risk. And what that requires is trust within the team. So how do you build trust within the team? We learn to not shut things down. So that's where. Yes. And listening closely, accepting other people's ideas, you may not follow through on those ideas, but let them be valuable. Let everybody's voice, voice be heard and valuable. We do exercises in listening, say, and sort of exploring how do you listen and what kind of listener are you? And that can be really mind opening for people because they might realize, oh, I do that all the time. You know, I, I can be a really bad listener and not even realize it. There's some things that I do where you can discover if you're a leader or a follower and to sort of bridge that gap. So if you're a follower, try taking the lead more. And if you're a leader, try following more. And people can really realize how much they wait for other people to do things, you know, so they're, they're afraid of those risks and they want to try more. We want to find the sort of Venn diagram of where people can meet and what they have to offer each other. Noticing, oh, I do take over a lot, or, oh, I really could offer more.
- [17:31]
Host
It was Definitely a self learning experience, like a self discovery for me. When we were there, I realized how quickly I jump into my sort of analytical beta brain where I am trying to come up with something witty and quick. But as you were saying, it's not really about that. It's about actually just listening and responding and creating something together with your partner.
- [17:58]
Ann McGinty
Or with your group.
- [17:59]
Host
And that was discombobulating to the brain because when we had to participate in a group, say, storytelling session and we could only say, you know, one, two, four words or a sentence when the story wouldn't go the direction that I was trying to nudge it to go, then you have to quickly sort of recalibrate and think, well, where am I going to take this when my turn comes back around again? It must be good for problem solving for these types of situations in life where you need to think quickly.
- [18:35]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah. Well, what I like to say is it's not about thinking quickly, it's about getting out of your own way. So you're describing how you were in your head. You're like, I gotta say the right thing, I gotta be clever. And as you recall, one of the first things I did was make everybody say something boring. So I really wanted to get, to get out the idea from the outset. We're not here to be clever guys. We're here in fact be as dull as you possibly can. And that in itself becomes funny. Right?
- [19:05]
Host
It was hilarious.
- [19:07]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah. So the first thing was say a boring sentence, a boring statement, and then we're all going to support you in that. And so somehow somebody saying I'm wearing tennis shoes becomes the most hilarious thing in the world because it's so not funny. Right. So we really lower the stakes on what's funny to put people at ease. But about that, that mindset of getting out of your own way is, is really key. And so a lot of those games and the things, it's not trying to learn to think fast, it's about getting out of your head. So stuff can just come out your mouth basically. And, and that's vulnerable. Right. Because we're used, we're used to being able to control what we say. You know, we're not looking for somebody to slip and say something embarrassing. We're looking for people to, to slip and say something they didn't know they could say.
- [20:06]
Host
Yeah.
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Ann McGinty
Like you're not trying to stump them.
- [20:08]
Host
You'Re trying to support them in the shared goal of the story. Right?
- [20:14]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah. And that idea of, you know, that you're talking about the story a Word at a time or sentence at a time stories, especially if you're with several people. We cannot think of what we're going to say next because we don't know what we're going to have to respond to when it comes around to us again. So there's that, oh, I got to let go of my idea and just try to serve the story that is emerging.
- [20:39]
Host
There's something in that process that I think is so valuable that it, it truly makes me want to go again. Because what it was a two and a half hour session and when I walked away I ended up just processing the experience and thinking, why was that so fun? Like it was creative. And I just think you got our brains to function in a way that they don't normally in our day to day lives.
- [21:07]
Laura Wachtel
It's kind of an endless exploration. I'm still exploring it almost 20 years in. I have teachers who've been doing it for 40 years. They're still exploring it. So it's sort of an endless experiment in a way. And I think one of the things that it's doing is it's taking away our adulting and taking us back to a time when we weren't self conscious about everything we did. So we're not being childish, but there is a childlike quality to just playing that a lot of adults have lost. And so it's touching back on something really essential. Just play, play is very essential in life and laughter is, it's a cliche, but laughter is very healing and it.
- [21:58]
Host
Is opening and to not take ourselves so seriously.
- [22:02]
Laura Wachtel
Right, Absolutely.
- [22:03]
Host
So what is your schedule like as a business owner?
- [22:07]
Laura Wachtel
Yeah, you know, it's like I mentioned earlier, having zipline improv as a business kind of snuck up on me and over the past year or so it's really taken off and I've sort of had to scramble to keep up with it. So it's been a learning curve and you know, it's, it's just me, it's a sole proprietorship, so it's not like I have a lot of employees or that kind of business. But there is so much admin involved, especially the more classes I add and you know, then there's promo and then there's emails and scheduling and all of these different things. So my schedule is basically I mostly work at night, you know, teach my classes or evenings because, you know, adults work. I do a Sunday day class, but weekdays is when I do all that, that admin stuff and I'm still working out how to not overwork, you know, how to schedule time for myself. So I'm not constantly just catching up. It's probably a familiar problem for a lot of people.
- [23:14]
Host
What's the bottleneck? What's causing the most amount of work that's clogging your flow?
- [23:20]
Laura Wachtel
Well, when it's time to schedule classes, you know, the way it is is you never know who's going to continue and if you're going to have enough to have that class continue or if you have to blend that class with another. I have a very high retention rate these days, but scaling like how many classes? There's only so many slots in the week that I can teach and that adults can take classes. I might explore a weekday class for people who have odd schedules or retired people, but otherwise it's weekday nights and then I often perform on Saturday nights. And I'm also, by the way, a company member at Bats Improv in San Francisco. So I have performances there and, you know, other duties there. So I'm juggling rehearsals and stuff for them as well. But the bottleneck you asked about tends to come most when it's scheduling time for the next series of classes. So I just finished a beginning class, and so I have to find out how many of those people want to move up to next steps. Is it enough people to run the class or do those people have to wait till the next beginning class finishes and I blend those classes? Are there people who did a beginning class a few months ago that are ready to do the next steps class? So it's reaching out and patchworking classes. My more advanced classes, they're just on a roll, they're just continuing. And so those just seem to run no matter what. Sometimes I need to move someone up into that class and I have to make sure there's room, et cetera. It's a tetrising of students some of the time.
- [25:05]
Host
How many people do you need to commit to a class for you to feel like it's worth your time and it covers whatever the cost is to rent the space and make it worthwhile.
- [25:17]
Laura Wachtel
So there's sort of a scale there. My very minimum is eight. It's more fun for everybody with a larger group. 10 or 12 is better. And I tend to max at 12, but sometimes I go to 14 if there's demand for a class.
- [25:34]
Host
And then how much does it cost for someone who is able to commit to, say, a six week session?
- [25:40]
Laura Wachtel
The beginning class is six weeks. It's once a week for two hours, and that's a $200 class. Beyond that, they're eight week sessions because you can get more into it with eight weeks. And so it's the same amount per class. It becomes 265 for the series. I do offer when I can, you know, some scholarship help. I want it to be available to people and of course I have to, you know, now that this is my main thing, I have to make a living. But I also don't want it to be impossible. So there's always a space here and there for someone who can't afford it.
- [26:18]
Host
What do you do about getting the word out about your classes? Given that you are a solo entrepreneur and you don't have a brick and mortar space and you are then popping up in different locations? Like how do you get the word out to the community?
- [26:36]
Laura Wachtel
Well, honestly I will say my dream is to have a brick and mortar space with my zipline improv in the window. I think that would be amazing. And rents are really, really high around here. So I have not there yet. But I'm terrible at social media. But I do have a zipline Instagram account and Facebook so I post things there. I get a lot of just people looking and googling me and getting a lot just from that because I think zipline comes up first in Sonoma county and you know, people might look on eventbrite for an improv class or something. Word of mouth. I'm still working on that. But on the other hand right now, like until I figure out that scaling how to manage more classes, I can't necessarily handle more classes. So it's sort of walking that line of getting more people and getting more people and then wait, how? I can't be in two places at once. So. Still working on that.
- [27:40]
Host
So you're growing at the pace that you can handle, which sounds great. Yeah, you've said a couple times now how much improv has really changed your life. Can you give us a better idea of what you mean?
- [27:53]
Laura Wachtel
You know, it's changed my perception of myself. I feel more me. I don't feel like I'm hiding. I feel like I used to try to be invisible and if I were visible I'd want to be doing everything just exactly right before anybody could see it. Any participation in things. I just kind of wanted to be on the on the outskirts watching and that just went away. And I'm not self conscious. If I'm silly or make a mistake in public, it's just really easy to laugh it off and move on. I don't attach to it in any way. It's just sort Of I feel like it was a path for me at least, of finding my real comfortable nature and liking myself.
- [28:46]
Host
Oh, that's amazing. If you could only teach one improv exercise for the rest of your life, which one would it be?
- [28:59]
Laura Wachtel
Oh, my God, that would be terrible. Anne. How could I pick one? It's impossible to pick one. So I will just say you'd have to do a yes and exercise and learn how. Yes, and gets you so much further in life than yes, but. And we didn't do yes, but yesterday in class, but I will do it in the beginning class. So the learning, the freedom of yes, and. And this. The sort of stuckness of when we say but. But then I'd also just want to do something just really playful. There's this game called Bunny Bunny, which is just. It's a rhythmic game that everybody's playing, and if you continue taking classes, you're gonna learn it. But it's a. It's a sort of. Everyone's in a circle and saying and doing different things in this rhythmic way, and it just gets really silly. So there's a couple I would do now.
- [30:05]
Host
There are all these other games and ideas that I'm like, oh, there's so much more. What? There's a best.
- [30:10]
Laura Wachtel
But, oh, there's so much. It's just kind of endless. And in fact, you know, that concept of beginner's mind, it's like a Zen concept, which is approaching things as though you were a beginner. I feel like improv allows that. Like, each time I do it, I can be fresh. You know, I teach the same games and exercises over and over and over, and I'm never tired of them. There's just always something more to be gained for me. You know, I can lead an exercise, and instead of telling people what they should get out of it, I can offer, so what did you get out of it? And I might learn something. So it's the gift that keeps on giving.
- [30:57]
Ann McGinty
Advice for entrepreneurs.
- [30:59]
Host
So anybody that's listening in, who has a talent or skill that could potentially be turned into a class or an offering, what advice would you give them?
- [31:11]
Laura Wachtel
Well, a few things. One, I would say is let go of that imposter syndrome thing. For a while, I was like, well, I haven't been doing this for such and such long as my teachers, but there's a point at which you're good at what you do and you have something to offer. But also, what really helped me, because I, you know, it's very much a creative person and not thinking Myself of myself as a business person. I went to Small Business association and got myself an advisor. And for small businesses, they're just there to help. It's free and you get a certain number of sessions. And, you know, I just didn't know where to start when I went, you know, into legal business zone. And so I needed the steps. I needed to know, do I need a license? Do I need this? How do I file this? What about that? And my advisor was just so helpful in demystifying the process for me. So I highly recommend them. And I think too, just patience. Things don't happen overnight. Like I said, for me, it was sort of accidental until it wasn't. Then I was like, oh, well, I guess I'm gonna pursue this. And then it became a business. I think other people are more conscious of starting a business than I was. But find people who are smart in ways that you aren't to help.
- [32:50]
Host
Yeah. And for a final question, if you could go back and have a conversation with yourself when you were in your early 20s, what would you say?
- [32:59]
Laura Wachtel
Oh, my gosh, so many things like that poor. That poor shy girl. I would say go take an improv class because I would love to have not wasted so much time being afraid to jump into things.
- [33:18]
Host
Yeah. Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story with us and a little bit about what to expect with improv too.
- [33:25]
Laura Wachtel
Thanks, Anne. Thanks for having me.
- [33:31]
Ann McGinty
Today's key takeaways. Improv is worth trying. Whether you're a beginner or a perfectionist, improv can push you to grow. It's about teamwork, listening and responding, a willingness to drop your own agenda, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. And it's a way to build self confidence. It's worth giving a try if you're even remotely curious. We can often get stuck in our own heads, but the ability to trust yourself in the moment can unlock clarity, fuel confidence, and move you forward faster than overthinking can. Embrace mistakes. Mistakes are part of the process. The brain is a muscle and it's like the reps. You need to get stronger. So mess up. Learn to laugh at your own mistakes and move on. To build resilience. Think on your feet. Life is not scripted. The plan will change. Your ability to adapt. Pivot and problem solve in real time will be your tools for navigating uncertainty. Growth often requires stepping into situations that stretch you. If it feels uncomfortable, you're probably in the right place. Don't wait to feel confident. Do the hard things first. And confidence will catch up later. Listening is a superpower. Genuine listening leads to better relationships, ideas, and outcomes. Yes and wins. No, but stalls so saying yes and opens doors. It builds momentum. No, but slams them shut. Choose wisely. Consider when you need to let go of your agenda. Your plan is great until it isn't. Stay open. Sometimes the best stuff happens when you stay open to what's happening in the moment instead of forcing a predetermined plan. Play more. You were good at it once. Remember when you weren't so worried about getting it right? That's still in you and all of us. Play leads to ideas and a creative way of thinking. Maintain a beginner's mindset. Expertise is great, but curiosity gets you even further. Stay open to learning like it's day one. Let go of self doubt Imposter syndrome holds you back and trusting your abilities moves you forward. And lastly, small business help is free. The SBA Small Business Administration offers free advisors to support entrepreneurs, so take advantage of it. That's it for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.