Advice Line: Scaling Strategies

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Advice Line: Scaling Strategies" | How I Built This with Guy Raz

Episode Information:

• Title: Advice Line: Scaling Strategies
• Host: Guy Raz
• Release Date: May 22, 2025
• Format: Special Mashup Episode featuring three callers and three former guests

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Introduction

In this special mashup episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz brings together insights from three legendary entrepreneurs to address common scaling challenges faced by growing businesses. The episode, titled "Advice Line: Scaling Strategies," features callers seeking guidance on their next steps to scale their ventures, with expert advice from notable guests Travis Boersma (Co-Founder of Dutch Bros. Coffee) and Michael Prisman (Founder of Everlane), alongside insights from Chris Ruder (Founder of Spikeball).

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Caller 1: Andy Atkins of Bad Luck Burger Club

Guest Expert: Travis Boersma
Partner Expert: Michael Prisman

Caller Background: Andy Atkins, co-owner of Nashville-based Bad Luck Burger Club, operates two successful food trucks specializing in smash burgers. Founded during the pandemic in May 2021, the business quickly grew from a makeshift setup in parking lots to a thriving enterprise with consistent cash flow and profitability.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Organic Growth and Cash Flow:

   • Andy Atkins: "We've been cash flow positive since day one and we've just always operated that way." (04:58)
   • The Bad Luck Burger Club expanded organically, reinvesting profits from the first food truck to finance the second, demonstrating a sustainable growth model without external funding.

2. Decision to Expand to Brick-and-Mortar:

   • Andy Atkins: "The big goal is brick and mortar." (07:02)
   • Andy grapples with the decision to transition from mobile units to a fixed location, weighing the benefits of expanded revenue streams (like selling alcohol) against the increased operational complexities and costs.

3. Expert Advice on Scaling:

   • Travis Boersma: Emphasizes the importance of bootstrapping and maintaining control before considering external investment.
   • Michael Prisman: Highlights the need to understand and manage the additional costs associated with brick-and-mortar operations, advising to focus on scaling the US market before venturing internationally.

4. Strategic Recommendations:

   • Continue building the momentum with current food trucks to save funds for a future brick-and-mortar expansion.
   • Leverage unique selling propositions, such as the ability to serve alcohol, to enhance revenue without solely relying on increased volume.

Notable Quote:

Michael Prisman: "If you're able to bring in product line or a revenue stream that you don't capture today, and you've got a model of somebody who already does, it's pretty easy to look at that and try to figure out how you could replicate it or take it to another level." (11:09)

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Caller 2: Tiffany Narbone of Te Giselle

Guest Expert: Michael Prisman

Caller Background: Tiffany Narbone, founder of Te Giselle, an inspirational jewelry brand based on Cape Cod, seeks advice on expanding her brand's presence in larger retail partnerships. Established in 2012, Te Giselle has achieved over $5 million in revenue, focusing on handmade, meaningful jewelry crafted by women.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Brand Storytelling and Essence:

   • Tiffany Narbone: Shares the personal inspiration behind her brand, emphasizing the importance of kindness and storytelling in connecting with customers.
   • Chris Ruder: Advises simplifying the brand story to resonate clearly with both retailers and consumers, suggesting organizing collections around themes like "Strength" or "Serenity."

2. Scaling Through Retail Partnerships:

   • Tiffany Narbone: Expresses the desire to move beyond small retailers to bigger partnerships, leveraging her brand's strong narrative and unique offerings.
   • Chris Ruder: Recommends focusing on distilled brand messages that highlight what makes Te Giselle unique, such as "handmade in Cape Cod by women," to attract larger retailers.

3. Marketing and Operational Strategies:

   • Tiffany Narbone: Currently allocates about 10% of revenue to marketing, utilizing trade shows, wholesale channels, and digital platforms like QVC.
   • Chris Ruder: Encourages maintaining a strong focus on the US market’s growth before aggressively pursuing international expansion, ensuring that the foundational business remains robust.

4. Enhancing Retail Appeal:

   • Incorporate personal stories and testimonials from founders or key team members to create a deeper connection with retailers and consumers.
   • Utilize visual and emotional elements in packaging and merchandising to convey the brand's essence succinctly.

Notable Quote:

Chris Ruder: "Find what the customer cares about when they buy from you… it's a simple story for retailers to tell. 'Made in Cape Cod by women'… something that simplifies it and then starts to go down to each of those notes." (28:51)

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Caller 3: Peter Hauk of Rink Rabbit

Guest Expert: Chris Ruder

Caller Background: Peter Hauk, founder of Rink Rabbit, a direct-to-consumer e-commerce company based in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, creates specialized accessories for figure skaters. With over $100,000 in sales year-to-date and expansion into 16 countries, Peter seeks advice on whether to focus on international markets or further develop product lines domestically.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Product Innovation and Market Fit:

   • Peter Hauk: Describes Rink Rabbit’s flagship products—a rink tote and a figure skating backpack—designed to meet the unique needs of serious figure skaters.
   • Emphasizes the functionality and aesthetic appeal tailored for competitive athletes, distinguishing Rink Rabbit from other more generic products in the market.

2. International Expansion Challenges:

   • Cost and Logistics: High shipping costs and long delivery times make international orders less profitable and customer-friendly.
   • Peter Hauk: "When it shows up at their door, they also have to sign and pay another $30-$50." (46:12)
   • Trademark and Patent Protection: Ensures product protection internationally, mitigating risks of replication and counterfeit products.

3. Strategic Focus and Scaling:

   • Chris Ruder: Advises concentrating on the booming US market given current growth rates before diverting attention to international expansion.
   • Recommends leveraging Shopify’s backend integrations to manage international orders efficiently when the time is right.

4. Long-Term Vision:

   • Peter Hauk: Aspires to become the go-to brand for all figure skating needs, akin to Titleist in golf.
   • Plans to diversify product offerings to cover a broader range of figure skating equipment, establishing Rink Rabbit as a comprehensive solution provider.

Notable Quote:

Peter Hauk: "Our biggest independent is about 120 retailers… I am getting back into doing trade shows… trying to get into those faces or connect." (27:35)

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Conclusion and Takeaways

The "Advice Line: Scaling Strategies" episode offers invaluable insights into scaling businesses across different industries. Key takeaways include:

• Sustainable Growth: Organic, bootstrapped growth can provide a solid foundation before seeking external investment.
• Brand Storytelling: A clear and compelling brand narrative is crucial for attracting both consumers and retail partners.
• Market Focus: Prioritizing the domestic market’s expansion can solidify business operations before venturing into international territories.
• Product Differentiation: Offering unique, high-quality products that address specific customer needs can set a brand apart in competitive markets.

Entrepreneurs navigating the challenges of scaling can draw inspiration from these stories, emphasizing the importance of strategic planning, maintaining control, and leveraging unique value propositions.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Andy Atkins: "We've been cash flow positive since day one and we've just always operated that way." (04:58)
2. Michael Prisman: "If you're able to bring in product line or a revenue stream that you don't capture today… it's pretty easy to look at that and try to figure out how you could replicate it or take it to another level." (11:09)
3. Chris Ruder: "Find what the customer cares about when they buy from you… it's a simple story for retailers to tell." (28:51)
4. Peter Hauk: "When it shows up at their door, they also have to sign and pay another $30-$50." (46:12)

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Final Thoughts: This episode underscores the multifaceted nature of scaling a business, highlighting the need for adaptability, clear branding, and strategic focus. Whether running food trucks, crafting meaningful jewelry, or designing specialized sports accessories, the principles of sustainable growth and authentic storytelling remain paramount.

Listen to the full episode here to gain deeper insights into scaling strategies from some of the world’s most successful entrepreneurs.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Tackle all the important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. And if you're looking to grow your business internationally, Shopify Shopify has global selling tools to help you in over 150 countries in person. More your thing Shopify's award winning point of sale connects your online and offline sales all in one place. With 99.99% uptime and the best converting checkout on the planet, you'll never miss a sale again. Only with Shopify. Get all the big stuff for your small business right with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.combilt go to shopify.combilt shopify.combilt thank you to our sponsor, Amazon Prime. You know, I've been thinking a lot about convenience lately and how one service has completely transformed the way we live our daily lives. And of course I'm talking about Amazon Prime. Whenever you need something, whether it's delivered in hours or just a couple of days, prime just makes it happen. Just the other day I realized I needed a refill on my vitamins and I found it within seconds on Amazon. I ordered it and I was back to my routine the next day. It's almost like when you think of it, Amazon does the rest. But here's what's fascinating. Prime isn't just about shipping. It's about having access to an entire ecosystem of services. From award winning shows on Prime Video to millions of songs and podcasts on Amazon Music, to exclusive deals that honestly make you wonder how they do it. Visit Amazon.comprime to get more out of whatever you're into. Thank you to our sponsor, American Express. Owning a business means you get to chart your own course and create a meaningful life for you and your family. With Amex Business Platinum, you can earn 1.5 times Membership Rewards points on select business purchases, plus stay refreshed on the go with access to more than 1400 lounges globally through the American Express Global Lounge Collection, including the Centurion Lounge. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] AmExBusiness hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help to try and solve your business challenges and pain points. And each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And this week we have a bit of a special episode. It's kind of a mashup. Three callers and three different former guests, but all tackling some version of the same question, which is what's the next move to scale my business? And by the way, if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call. You might just be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you would like some help with. You can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It is full of insights and ideas about running a business and hopefully even some inspiring messages. You can sign up for [e-mail] and we will put all of this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. My first guest today is Travis Boersma. He's the co founder of Dutch Bros. Coffee. Travis was first on How I built this back in 2023 to tell the story of taking Dutch Bros. From a single push cart in a small town in Oregon, actually in a parking lot of a supermarket, to a national chain now valued at over $9 billion. It is such an amazing story and you can find it in the link here in the show notes. And as you'll hear, Travis was the picture perfect person to help our callers think about how to scale a business.

[Andy Atkins]

Hi Guy. Hi Travis. My name is Andy Atkins from Nashville, Tennessee and I'm the co owner and operator of the Bad Luck Burger Club. We're a fast casual smash burger concept operating out of two food trucks and I'm stoked to be on the show. Thanks for having me on.

[Travis Boersma]

Awesome. Welcome to the show. All right, so you're doing Bad Luck Burger Club in Nashville.

[Guy Raz]

Two trucks.

[Travis Boersma]

So congrats. When did you start the business?

[Andy Atkins]

We started in the pandemic. May of 2021 was our first go round and me and my partner Cody, we started up, yeah, it was a tent and a couple griddles. No business plan, just a couple dudes kind of like throwing parties in parking lots around town with really Just trying to get through, you know, we were all wearing masks, sitting in our houses. You couldn't be out and about. And then like once the CDC was like, oh, you can hang with like 10 or less people in parking lots. And social distance, like the whole vibe was just, yo, let's go through some parties, let's have a good time, let's sell a cheeseburger, try to make the money back that we spent on food at Kroger or whatever. And it really was not a plan to start a business, but it was just a perfect storm of people needing a place to be and needing a community. And we happened to make a pretty good cheeseburger. And so there were just large lines coming and we were selling out every time.

[Guy Raz]

I love it.

[Andy Atkins]

And that eventually turned into a food truck, that then eventually turned into a second food truck. And now it's our full time thing.

[Travis Boersma]

And were you guys coming from food, you and Cody?

[Andy Atkins]

No, no, not at all. Cody and I met back in the day when we used to both travel in bands. I played as a professional musician for about a decade. Same for Cody. So we were just in bands touring around the world. We'd see each other at different festivals, just, you know, making friends. And then he moved to Nashville where I lived and, you know, you just start growing a friendship, seeing each other around town. Neither one of us have any hospitality or service industry experience before this thing.

[Travis Boersma]

Do you, did you. Did you tour with any bands that we might know?

[Andy Atkins]

Yes and no. So I started my career out as an actual musician playing in a metal band in the underground metal and punk rock hardcore scenes. I wouldn't think that you would know anything about that. That's a really specific niche.

[Travis Boersma]

You might be surprised.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, keep going.

[Andy Atkins]

Yeah, possible. But then after that I went into a 10 year career of touring in the production side of touring in arenas. So I've worked with like Panic at the Disco and Pentatonix and Zak Brown Band and a bunch of stuff like that, you know, and you're just setting up stages and arenas all over the country.

[Guy Raz]

Cat Stevens.

[Andy Atkins]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure, dude.

[Travis Boersma]

Andy, what's your question for us?

[Andy Atkins]

Yeah, so we've grown organically over the past three years. The tent and the griddles paid for the first food truck. The first food truck paid for the second food truck. We've been cash flow positive since day one and we've just always operated that way. We're living in a world right now where our decision has to be going into brick and mortar and securing finance for that or do we keep trying to replicate the current model of food trucks in various locations? But, Travis, as you would know, it takes a lot of operations to run a food truck at the level of success that we're doing. So it's like, you know, the big goal is brick and mortar. Now talk to financial people about giving us some money or keep bootstrapping through mobile unit. Mobile unit until it makes sense.

[Travis Boersma]

So bootstrap, bootstrap, bootstrap, and then build through cash flow or raise money and go right into brick and mortar. Doesn't seem like those are the only two options here. But, Travis, love to hear your thoughts on that.

[Michael Prisman]

I mean, there's. There's something super fun and cool and sexy about a food truck. You know, there's. It's. It's trendy. You have some flexibility with where you go and what you do and your hours and where you're going to invest time and money. When you look at brick and mortar, are you completely aware of all the costs that you're going to incur that you don't today with overhead? And, I mean, you know, like, from rent to, you know, maintenance on the buildings to investment in the kitchen with the equipment, the cleanliness that has to occur with bathrooms and people that may have, you know, kids that make a mess at everything in the kitchen. And. And now you got an order. You know, there's a lot of dynamics that are much different than your food truck. So I, you know, I. If. If that's your overall objective and. And if. If it is, then you got to figure out, well, if I'm going to incur costs, how am I going to offset that? I would think you got to do a lot more volume, you know, and volume is probably the name of the game for you guys. If you go into more, you know, brick and mortar sites with overhead, for sure, yeah.

[Andy Atkins]

I mean, we're pretty aware of. It will be quite a bit more expensive to run, you know, monthly compared to what our overhead is now. We have a pretty decent amount of revenue. Our margins are pretty good. And with being able to open up a brick and mortar and add alcohol to our program of having a bar that's going to be able to open up a revenue stream that we don't even have access to being in a food truck, you know, because right now, like, we have one standalone food truck that stays outside of a bar that's seven days a week, open every single day. And, you know, like, we have a great relationship with them, love working with them, but also understand that, like, based off of the numbers that we look at between our two companies, we would have twice the revenue in a day just out of how much alcohol is being served in their building that we don't have access to sell in a food truck.

[Travis Boersma]

Right, so you're saying that part of the brick and mortar, the big part, is that you have the access to sell alcohol?

[Andy Atkins]

For sure, yeah, absolutely.

[Travis Boersma]

Got it.

[Michael Prisman]

And you know what I think, I mean, honestly, that that's something that I think you gotta consciously think about is how do you offset those costs? Volume. Yes. But if you're able to bring in product line or a revenue stream that you don't capture today, and you've got a model of somebody who already does, it's pretty easy to look at that and try to figure out how you could replicate it or take it to another level.

[Andy Atkins]

Yeah, for sure.

[Travis Boersma]

What's. What's the vision like? You're looking five, ten years down the road, Andy. I mean, do you want to be the, you know, the Smash Burger joint in Nashville, or do you have visions of, like, beyond that area?

[Andy Atkins]

I think we have a model that could be replicated in other locations, at least throughout the Southeast. Yeah, I mean, I think we've already got a good footprint in Nashville. We are like, we're voted best burger in town, the best food truck in town. We got some pretty good eyes and acclimations going on around town or whatever. I think being able to have a brick and mortar would for sure solidify us as a brand that's here to stay.

[Travis Boersma]

How long do you think it would take you to save enough cash from the food trucks to finance it yourself? A brick and mortar shop?

[Andy Atkins]

Gosh, I'd have to say probably another two years.

[Travis Boersma]

I mean, it's something to consider, right? Because the minute you bring in an outside investor, especially with. Can you give us a ballpark of what your revenue is, your annual revenue?

[Andy Atkins]

For sure. We'll just get over 8,000 K this year by the end of the year.

[Travis Boersma]

$8,000 total.

[Andy Atkins]

800,000. Sorry?

[Travis Boersma]

800,000.

[Andy Atkins]

800,000. Yeah.

[Travis Boersma]

So it's pretty good. But you're going to bring an investor and they're going to say, look, you're going to need a million dollars to do this, and I want 55% of your business. And so the question is, and maybe you can talk them down to 30 or 40, but you know, then at that point you've got an investor who has access to your books, which is fine, but, you know, they' shareholder. So you now have A boss, and you're your own boss. And so it's a big question as to whether, you know, if you, if you want to kind of speed this up, there are advantages to it if you could find the right partner, but it's, it's a risk. Right. If you're willing to try and make a go of it on your own for another year, year and a half to see if you can fund it yourself, you retain the control. It's as simple as that.

[Michael Prisman]

Yeah. Andy, are you married?

[Andy Atkins]

What? Yeah, I'm married. Yeah.

[Michael Prisman]

Yeah. You got compromise in them relationship sometimes.

[Andy Atkins]

Oh, for sure. I, I, that's, I feel like my strongest suit with both my life partner and my business partner is I'm the, I'm the one that compromises, dude. I'm down to just say, okay, I'm not gonna die on this hill, you know.

[Michael Prisman]

Well, you know what? I, you probably, I mean, you bring a partner in and it, that's a whole nother dynamic and, and you can count on a lot more compromise. I think what you're doing is amazing. And, and man, what guy just said I think is spot on. If you can just keep that snowball building, maybe take a little bit less to live on, keep that money rolling into the business and let it do its thing and, and have some fun with it. But I could see Bad Luck burger and brews real easy.

[Travis Boersma]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I could see that. Yep.

[Andy Atkins]

Heck yeah, guys.

[Travis Boersma]

And I mean, those are, that's, that's pretty good. That's pretty, I mean, 800 grand for two food trucks is pretty great. I mean, I would imagine they're doing a nice, nice profit there.

[Michael Prisman]

And to be voted the best burger in Nashville.

[Andy Atkins]

Yeah. Best burger, best food truck. We're about 30% profitable. Wow. And that's with one of those food trucks. So the second truck that we have outside that bar that started in January of this year. And so we pretty much shifted all of our focus onto getting that running seven days a week, like non stop. So like the other truck kind of sat around for a while for us to be able to get that operational. So there's, there's a whole nother revenue stream in that truck that didn't really get utilized that well this year.

[Travis Boersma]

Yeah, I feel like you guys are doing something right here.

[Michael Prisman]

Yeah, I mean, the model sounds perfect. I, you know, you maybe want to make minor tweaks to make a major impact. The brick and mortar scene and bringing on alcohol and the liability and everything that goes with it. I'd just be mindful of everything that comes with that that's new and different than what you do now, for sure.

[Andy Atkins]

Yeah. It's definitely a big learning curve where, like I said, we're learning something new every single day, making it up as we go, but we know a lot more now than we knew May 2021, you know.

[Travis Boersma]

Yeah. Burgers look awesome. They look delicious. Congrats, man.

[Andy Atkins]

Heck, yeah. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate y' all.

[Travis Boersma]

Andy Atkins of the Bad Luck Burger Club, thanks for calling in.

[Michael Prisman]

Good luck, Andy.

[Andy Atkins]

Thanks, guys.

[Travis Boersma]

Yeah, Looks like a good burger, man. I have recently, very sadly, Travis, given up mostly, I'm not gonna say entirely, but I would say 99 of the time, giving up burgers just because I'm on, like, a low, low carb diet. So I, you know, take my kids in and out and I just sit there wistfully watching them eat.

[Michael Prisman]

Well, I. I have not done that.

[Travis Boersma]

You're lucky, man. Go to Bad Luck Burger Club.

[Michael Prisman]

Yeah, I'm ready to go, man.

[Travis Boersma]

I know they look delicious.

[Guy Raz]

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller with another question for another former guest. Stay with us. You're listening to a special mashup episode of the Advice Line right here on How I built this lab. When I travel, I almost always stay at an Airbnb. Why? Because I can feel at home instantly wherever I am around the world. Find out how much your place is [e-mail] host and now, a quick vital break. A little more from our sponsor, Vital Proteins. Have you heard of vital proteins? Collagen peptides. It's a supplement that has four benefits all in 1. Helping support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. Because of aging, after 30, our body's natural collagen production can start to decline by 1% a year, which may lead to the appearance of fine lines, saggy skin, and your bones and joints not moving like they used to. By taking collagen peptides daily, you can help support your hair, skin, nail, bone, and joint health. Consistency is key. Take a serving of collagen peptides daily to help look, feel, and move your best. Get 20% off by going to www.vitalproteins.com and entering promo code BILT at checkout. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you're pregnant, nursing, or have a medical condition, consult your physician before. Wouldn't it be great to have a service that's like speed dating Only for hiring. In other words, you could meet several interested qualified candidates at once, all at a designated time. Well, good news there is. It's zip intro from ZipRecruiter. You can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. And right now you can try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com built Zip Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back to back video calls. You simply pick a time and Zip Intro does all the work of finding and scheduling qualified candidates for you. Then you can choose who you want to talk to and meet with great people as soon as the next day. It's so easy. Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ziprecruiter.com BILT Again, that's ziprecruiter.com bilt zip intro/jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and our next return guest Michael Prisman started the online clothing retailer Everlane and Michael shared that story on the show back in 2023. And we'll put a link to it in the show notes below. Michael caused quite a stir in the fashion world when he publicized his company' production costs at every step along the chain. Over time, Michael ended up building a multimillion dollar business with a focus on sustainability and social responsibility. And when Michael joined me on the advice line, he offered some really great advice about growing a fashion brand through retail partnerships.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Hi guys. I'm Tiffany Narbone, the founder of teachazelle. And first I just have to say Guy and Michael, I'm sorry. So excited. I feel very grateful for this opportunity. Guy, I've been listening to you for so long, especially when I be on the road heading to appointments for my brand and it was always just a fuel to me. So I can't believe I even have this chance. So thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing. Well, okay, tell us a little bit about about about your brand.

[Tiffany Narbone]

So our brand, it's an inspirational jewelry brand and it's all about spreading positivity, being able to wear your story through timeless jewelry. We use all precious gemstones, sterling silver, lifetime guarantee, and all handmade right here on Cape Cod by women. And you know, our brand is just really. I say to wear your story.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, Tiffany, I may have missed it. What's the name of the brand?

[Tiffany Narbone]

T. Giselle. I get all excited and I Say.

[Guy Raz]

The name T. Giselle is. What is. What is Tee. Giselle.

[Tiffany Narbone]

So my first name is Tiffany and my middle name is Giselle. And when coming up with the name of my brand I made, I started creating jewelry, and something came over me. I never felt. I never had, you know, a vision of being a jewelry designer. Just something brought so much joy to my heart when I made a bracelet. And so everything's always had a meaning. And my middle name is with my. My mom also shares it with me, and so she's such an inspiration to me. She's such my rock and. Yeah. So it's just another piece of me.

[Guy Raz]

And. And tell me a little bit about the products. I mean, it. Mainly bracelets. Right. And they're. They're like, made from. They're like, They're. They're spherical. They're made from, like a stone, and they've got a charm on them. Okay. Yeah.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yep. So they're all. We use all precious gemstones, so all different semi precious stones from, like, amethyst is to rose quartz, blue, aquamarine. And with that, I really created, like, a dual message. So not only do stones hold meanings and energies, which I've always been into, but charms all have a meaning. You know, you never know what something could symbolize to someone. So with the bracelets, I really kind of combined both those messages, and we have an array of styles. So, you know, for instance, like, maybe your mom loves rose quartz and you want to get her our family tree, but you could get your sister, you know, maybe she's a blue girl, something for serenity. You can get her that option with the heart. So I say, like, you create the story, you know, and there's lots of options. So it's definitely turned into a stackable. Our returning customer, they want to create, you know, their stack, you know.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And you make. And you basically make it on Cape Cod.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yeah. Yep. I have a whole team of women, which is amazing. I love my crew. I couldn't do it without them. And they put so much love into every piece. And I believe that's a piece of it that comes out when you're wearing it too.

[Guy Raz]

And you have a shop too, right?

[Tiffany Narbone]

We do, yes. We have a store right on the Cape. It was when we first opened, we thought it could be like a showroom for our retailers we work with to come, like, check out the brand. But then we were like, you know what? We're right on Cape Cod. We're in a popular location destination for the summer, and it's been great and so we have just one location on the Cape. And then we work with retailers across the country that carry our brand.

[Guy Raz]

I love Cape Cod. It's so fun. I've been there a couple years. I love this the best. So. All right, couple questions. First of all, this is self funded, right? This business?

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

And. And are you guys. Have you guys broken half a million dollars in sales yet?

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yeah, we actually have hit over 5 million.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Chris Ruder]

Congratulations.

[Guy Raz]

How many years have you been around?

[Tiffany Narbone]

Thank you. I founded it in 2012, so I literally was a baby. Yeah. So it's been a minute. It's been a little bit. And so now I'm a mom. So I say I'm a mompreneur. And you know, our. During COVID our brand, literally we were so bl. It like took off. You know, we. I built the brand through doing trade shows and wholesale. But it was so special because I started going live on Facebook and our website, and then I ended up getting reached out to from qvc. So it's been just word of mouth has really built our brand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. All right, so you're doing about 5 million revenue. That's great. Congratulations. And your question, what was your question for us?

[Tiffany Narbone]

So my question is, you know, really, I want to be able to share more of our brim with like, bigger retailers. Like, we have a few big independents that we work with in like qvc, but kind of how to get in the face of some of these bigger retailers or partnerships?

[Guy Raz]

Just out of curiosity, before we get to your question, what do you guys. I mean, roughly what are you spending on marketing?

[Tiffany Narbone]

Every year on marketing, we're spending about. About, I think, like 10%.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, great. Okay, great.

[Chris Ruder]

Very reasonable. Very reasonable.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, very reasonable. Okay. So Michael, she's got a great brand and, you know, got some momentum. Got a store in Cape Cod. Clearly there's. It's resonating, but on qvc. So a lot going for her, but, you know, she wants to take it to the next level. From 5 million to 25 million or beyond. And I mean, at this point, this is now a mature business, small business. So now what?

[Chris Ruder]

So what I'm thinking about is in my head as I see this is like you've done such an amazing job telling your story. And even when I go onto the site, a little video pops up of you and starts, I get to hear your story. And then what you said is, you know, when the pandemic happened, I went live and started telling the story. Qvc. You're telling your story and it's Live. What is it about that story that's resonating with people when you tell the story that gets them to go, I want to buy teachell because it's so personal, right? It's your name. So clearly there's something there that's happening.

[Tiffany Narbone]

I think it's just, you know, I'm a very believer in being kind. What goes around comes around. We all have a story. And when I started my business, it's so crazy. My dad passed about a year in and I wanted to quit. I wanted to stop and it was like a piece of. Then Meghan Trainor ended up tweeting my bracelets and this is when one of her big hits came out. And it was such a pivotal.

[Guy Raz]

From Nantucket. Meghan Trainer from Nantucket. I've interviewed her before. She's a lovely, lovely person.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Oh my God. I've never met her, but it literally was, I felt like it was a sign from my dad. I'm burying the signs where he was like, you're not quitting. And so I then threw myself into my business. I began doing a lot of events, pop ups, just cold calling, whatever it took. And it ended up becoming an outlet for me. And now it's more than jewelry. And I think that's really where we strive, you know, and I do it because I love it and I feel grateful for my consumers and, you know, just being able to connect to the story, if that makes sense.

[Chris Ruder]

No, it does. And I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how do you take the story you're telling and start to make it into words that make it very clear for people because you can't show up everywhere. You know, QVC is one place where you can show up but eventually you have to turn this into words on the packaging and everything so that when it's sold in other retailers you stand out because it is about that spirit and capturing that spirit when you've gone to big retailers as how has, how. I mean QVC obviously has been successful but like what's your dream and how.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Has it gone so basically with our retailers, you know, my, my biggest independent is about 120 retailers. They have and we've been a great brand with them. I do training so they're one like, you know, kind of like you're saying like I try to be able to share my brand to get them to really understand it. What separates me from the other brands, like why do they want to share my jewelry with their customers? So you know, I, I am getting back into Doing trade shows. I took some time off from being a mom and just trying to figure out, like, you know, where to put that time or how to get into those faces or connect, like, connect with that.

[Chris Ruder]

The one. The thing I would say is, as you start to scale again, I go back to the amazing storytelling that you have, and you're going to have to find a way, as my guess, to simplify. And it's finding what is the customer care about when they buy from you. You know, one of the things you said early on that really resonated with me, but I'm not your customer yet, was that it's made in Cape Cod, that it's made by these amazing women. That's such a simple story for retailers to tell. You know, made in Cape Cod for women, by women. It doesn't have to be for women, but made in Cape Cod by women.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yeah.

[Chris Ruder]

There's the story about, you know, your father. There's the story about every. Every bracelet tells a story, and here's, you know, merchandising by stories that makes it special. So I think it's. I just think that's sitting down with your team and your customers and guy knows is about me now is like, what do you love the brand for? And it has to be your personality. So compelling. I'm already compelled. I'm like, I want to go buy these right now. But you can't. You can't show up everywhere. So the exercise of taking you and bottling it into packaging so that when they have that display at retail, they can say in less than five seconds, what makes te Giselle so special.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

You know, I was thinking, looking at your website, I noticed that it's organized basically based on the collection. So, like, black agate. Is it agate? Is that how it's pronounced?

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yep.

[Guy Raz]

And then you sort of go over each one and it tells you what the charm's name is. Like, for example, cladagh. Is that how it's pronounced?

[Tiffany Narbone]

Claddagh.

[Guy Raz]

Claddagh. Sorry, forgive me. And everyone knows it's like that heart with the. You know, you see a lot of Irish folks wearing it.

[Travis Boersma]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

It's the heart with the crown. But the thing is, that symbolizes love, loyalty, and friendship. Right. A compass rose symbolizes kind of knowing who you are and listening to your own inner voice. And I think instead of focusing on the charm, I would focus on what it's about with the story that it tells. It's kind of doubling down on what Michael is saying and then backing into actually the charm. Right. And maybe even a way to kind of organize the collections around, you know, around a spirit, a feeling, a mood, a personality attribute or trait. You know, like the kindness bracelet or, you know, the fearlessness bracelet. I mean, so you get that bracelet and you know that the person knows you because they got you the bracelet that defines and reflects who you are.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Right.

[Chris Ruder]

And. And with that, I even. I even see you building on, you know, again, I'll just go back to the. Made in Cape Cod by, you know, handmade by. Yeah, handmade. Handmade in Cape Cod by women.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Chris Ruder]

To inspire a more, you know, joyful or more powerful or a more connected world, you know, And.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yes.

[Chris Ruder]

And something that simplifies it and then starts to go down to each of those notes. Not the skull charm, but the strength. You know, for those who have strength, here's this charm.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yes.

[Chris Ruder]

For those who have this, here's this charm. So exactly what guy's saying. And. And in a few days of just going through this and what you'll do is you'll. You'll start to write it down, and then you'll show retailers and customers and say, does this resonate? Do you like this?

[Tiffany Narbone]

Yes.

[Chris Ruder]

Yes or no? What do you like about it? And it's bottling all of the goodness of Tiffany into a box that is so simple that people can just repeat and get excited about.

[Tiffany Narbone]

I love it. Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. I. I think. Yeah. Because it makes it so then it's. It's a clear.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

Meaningful connection. Right.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Because that's been like the part tying that all together. Like you're saying, bottling that all into the story.

[Guy Raz]

And when somebody gives you something like this, like a bracelet or necklace, that is. Isn't just a random thing or even just. But actually there's a symbolic meaning around it. That was for you. It's like they're not just gifting you this thing. They're showing you that they really put time into thinking about getting something specifically for you.

[Chris Ruder]

Yeah. And what they see in you.

[Guy Raz]

Exactly what they see in you. Yeah.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Oh, my God. Thank you, guys. I love it. I feel so good.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. All right, well, the brand is called Tee Giselle Tiffany. Good luck. Thank you so much. Congrats on building this business so far.

[Chris Ruder]

It's really cool.

[Tiffany Narbone]

Thank you.

[Chris Ruder]

That's a feel good story.

[Guy Raz]

It is. You know how I buy my wife jewelry? She sends me links on the Internet and says, buy me this. That's how I do it.

[Chris Ruder]

And I'm about the opposite. I go vintage shopping on auctions and bid for jewelry for my wife. So it's like we could not be more. More opposite.

[Guy Raz]

I cannot do that because then I'm like, is this right? Did I pick the right thing? Did I get what you were looking for?

[Chris Ruder]

I love it. Yeah.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

We're gonna take another quick break. We'll be right back. Stay with us. You're listening to a special mashup episode of the Advice Line right here on How I Built this Lab. I've stayed at some amazing Airbnbs, someone's cabin in the middle of a vineyard in California, in a 17th century stone barn on an olive farm in Tusc, Tuscany, and in an apartment in Paris where I watched people dance in the streets below. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host at how I Built this we meet the people behind the businesses we admire and hear firsthand how they got where they are today. Because every small choice, connection and transaction can mean much more. Our sponsor, Mercury, understands just that, that it's more than a deposit into your bank account. It's landing your first fundraise. It's more than an invoice to a customer. It's your hard work becoming revenue. It's more than a wire, it's payroll for your crew. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more than hold money, so businesses of all stages and industries can do more. Businesses like Alma, a legal tech startup, use Mercury to simplify their financial work. Co founder Aizah Murat, a Kyrgyzstan born and Harvard educated attorney, founded Alma after receiving dubious immigration advice that put the brakes on her career. Now her team streamlines immigration for skilled professionals while empowering businesses to recruit and scale seamlessly with global talent. They use Mercury to create and send invoices right from their bank account. Or Bogeybros, the E commerce apparel brand for the golfer who doesn't take themselves too seriously. While Bogeybros are known for their sense of humor, co founder Ryan Rizos doesn't joke about the company's finances. He chose Mercury to set up multiple checking accounts to implement the profit first method of accounting from day one and now uses Mercury's working capital as a cushion for big inventory purchases ahead of sales like Black Friday and Throne, who built a first of its kind device that monitors your gut health from your toilet. Co founder Scott Hickel raised two rounds of funding to bring Throne's vision to life. Now by investing their capital with Mercury Treasury. Scott can then invest more into engineering to get Throne just right. Visit mercury.com to see how Mercury brings together all the ways you use money into a single product that feels extraordinary to use. Mercury Banking that does more Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group Column NA and Evolve bank and Trust members FDIC Mercury treasury is offered by Mercury Advisory, llc, an SEC registered investment advisor and wholly owned subsidiary of Mercury Technologies. Important information and [e-mail] treasury hey, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz so my next return guest Chris Ruder turned the gate Spikeball into a massive brand with a global following. Chris was first on the show back in 2023 and he told the story of taking a game that he and his friends played as kids and marketing it as a competitive sport. And he found traction with some unexpected tribes of people that became evangelists for the brand, including Christian youth groups and PE teachers. And if you want to hear that story, we'll put a link to it in the podcast Episode Description When Chris joined me on the advice line, he offered some great guidance on how to grow another US Sports brand internationally.

[Peter Hauk]

Hi there. Hi Guy. Hi Chris. My name is Peter Hauk.

[Guy Raz]

Hey Peter.

[Peter Hauk]

Beautiful Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I'm calling today to talk to you guys about RinkRabbit direct to consumer e commerce figure scanning company. We currently have two products, a rink tote that we launched the company with and a figure skating backpack that we rolled out about a year ago. We've seen a lot of growth in the last 12 months.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Okay, well, congrats. Thanks for calling in, Peter. Okay, so Rink Rabbit, you make accessories for ice skating. You don't make ice skates.

[Peter Hauk]

Yep, exactly. That's a big point of confusion. Yeah, we, we make bags.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so bags and what else for ice skate? Ice skaters.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah. So we make a backpack that physically holds your figure skates and we have a tote and the tote sits on the boards that go around the edge of the ice rink. And the it holds all the things a skater needs while they're on the ice so they don't have to hop off the ice to go grab a drink of water or blow their nose. Ice time is expensive, so we try and make that as efficient as possible.

[Guy Raz]

All right. I live in Northern California, so I don't. I'm not aware of many ice skating rinks directly in my area, but you know, Sioux Falls, South Dakota gets pretty cold in winter And I think, you know. Right. There's a. More of a skating culture there. How big is the. Is the opportunity?

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah, it's difficult to determine. I've done a ton of research to try and figure out how many figure skaters there are, Especially in the US There's a bunch of people. There's probably over a million people that are figure skaters. It's an Olympic sport, so it's very widely accepted.

[Guy Raz]

Give me a sense of how you're doing right now. What's your revenue, roughly?

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah, so over the past few years, we've grown pretty substantially each year. Our first year, you know, our first couple months, we. We launched in October, and from October to December, we did like a thousand dollars in sales.

[Guy Raz]

And then it's October of 2023.

[Peter Hauk]

2021 is actually the year that we launched.

[Travis Boersma]

Yep.

[Guy Raz]

Okay.

[Peter Hauk]

And then we did 13,000 in 2022, and then 23, 000 in 2023. And we've done a little over a hundred thousand dollars year to date. Wow. In 2024.

[Guy Raz]

Congratulations. That's amazing.

[Peter Hauk]

We're building the brand. We're. You know, our. One of the benefits of our product is that when skaters see it, they know they want it. So obviously when we started and nobody knew who we were, what our product was, it took a little while for us to gain some speed. But that's why I'm excited to be talking to you today, Chris, because it seems like that's kind of how spikeball grew, was by having people see you.

[Guy Raz]

Playing spike ball and spike ball even more niche than figure skating. Peter, what's your question for us today?

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah, so figure skating is obviously an international sport, and we see great potential for our brand to become an international brand. We've seen a lot of growth organically in the United States as people have become more and more aware of our product. And we have people right now that are spending quite a bit of money to ship our product to them internationally. We've sold products in 16 different countries, and those people are paying about the equivalent of the value of the product. Product in the first place, to ship it to them in Australia or Canada or the UK or wherever. And so we think that there's this big opportunity if we were to tackle the international market, but we don't know if that's the right thing for us to be doing right now or not. Should we focus on rolling out more products, or should we focus on trying to address this international market where a significant number of figure skaters exist?

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Let me bring you in. Chris Ruder, what do you think before we answer Peter's question, any thoughts or questions that you might have for Peter?

[H]

Number one, I love it. This story, although our products are wildly different, the stories, this, this is really bringing me back to our early days. Not only is it a niche audience, but also when you first mentioned international, I got a little uncomfortable because I know a lot of entrepreneurs in the early days, like, oh, international, the opportunity could be massive. In my experience, the only time I should know about the only time, but the time where it makes the most sense to really consider it is if you have that existing demand. If you don't, then, man, it feels like a really heavy lift. But I love that you've got the demand. I love that people are spending just, you know, it's funny, Australians, the early days, they would spend just as much on shipping as they would for a spike ball set. And we're like, oh, wait, that is the marketplace talking to us.

[Guy Raz]

Peter, let me ask you a question about the main product now, which is the bag, and the bag very specifically designed for ice skaters. How protected is your product? I mean, Spikeball is patented. You cannot make spikeball. People try to do fakes, but they get shut down when you guys can shut them down. Chris. But is this something that could be replicated in China and sold on Amazon?

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah. So we have our name trademarked, first of all, so Rink Rabbit is trademarked, and we also have patents on the design of both of our products. And we just filed our patent for our backpack relatively recently. And with that one, we did it in other markets as well. I'm not sure exactly all the ones that we ended up including, but we filed a patent across a wide array of European countries especially. And the thing about Amazon is when you have that patent protection and that trademark protection, you can strike down other Amazon listings that are confusingly similar. So that's a big part of the reason why we opted to spend that money early on as a brand is to kind of protect ourselves from the get go.

[Guy Raz]

I'm curious, Chris, from your perspective. When you started spike ball, I mean, it was really, I mean, you had to explain to people, you still do to some extent, but really you had to explain to people what this was. And it was weird. And people, you're on the shores like Michigan, and you're like, what is this weird thing? I mean, figure skating, ice skating is not weird. Like, people have been doing this for a long, long time. This is a, a sport that I imagine probably skews more, more female than Male in the United States. Is that fair to say, Peter?

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah, that's. That's really accurate. And actually, one of the issues with. With other brands in the figure skating space is that they treat skaters more like little girls rather than the serious competitive athletes. My wife was a national champion figure skater when she was in high school.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Oh, my God.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah. So she had five concussions that she.

[Guy Raz]

Five concussions, wow.

[Peter Hauk]

So she was a very serious athlete. And going to the rink six to. Six to seven days a week for four hours at a time. And the products that were out there weren't built for someone to treat them like an athlete. They were pink and sparkly and fuzzy and not really designed to be super useful. So our whole brand ethos is to design products that are really well made, really aesthetically pleasing, and highly functional.

[Guy Raz]

Celebrated. You just said something that kind of blew my mind that I did not know your wife was the US national figure skating champion. She should be screening that from the front of your webpage. I mean, that. It's like you are giving me a reason now if I'm a figure skater, an ice skater. To buy your product. Because it's like, hey, I'm Allie. I mean, no shade to you. Your wife, Allie, I would have her face on there saying, I was a national champion, and I wish I had something like this. So I didn't. So we designed it. Like, I feel like that's got to be right at the center of your brain. I know this wasn't your question, but I don't know. Chris, what do you think?

[H]

Yes. It sounds like you may have the Michael Jordan of figure skating on board and the world doesn't know it.

[Guy Raz]

We don't even know it.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah. She was on a synchronized skating team that won u. S. National championship.

[Guy Raz]

That's fine. That's okay. You know how many journal former journalists I know say they're Pulitzer prize winners, but 10 people won the award? She's a national champion.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah. I think she's incredible. So. Yeah, that's. I appreciate that.

[Guy Raz]

I feel like that's. She needs to be a bigger part of this story here. In terms of international. What's the challenge of selling these international. What is the issue for you? Why are you kind of hesitating about this?

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah. So when you ship a product internationally, a. It's much more expensive. So when we ship our products, we're based out of South Dakota, which is in the center of the country, which is really convenient for an e. Commerce perspective. But most of the time, Our product costs 10 or 12 or at the most $15 to ship to our end user. But when you ship internationally, it's double that. It's 20 to $30 and it takes five weeks to get there. And then on top of that, when it shows up at their door, they also have to sign and pay another 30, 40, $50 depending on their country to make up for that. And so for $129 a $70 product, that those expenses become pretty prohibitive. But we still have people buying them from us anyway. And so I'm wondering, is it worth it for us to try and go set up international distribution centers or something like that? Do we try and partner with wholesalers who are in other countries and ship product directly to them from our manufacturer? Or how do we go about tackling that demand that we see out there?

[H]

There?

[Guy Raz]

But what percentage of the purchases are coming from abroad? I mean, is it more than 5%? Is it more than 10%?

[Peter Hauk]

It's about 3.5%. Last time I ran, the numbers of our sales are International and US growth is strong.

[H]

That's 97% of your growth.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah, 97% of our 96.5% of our sales are US and we've grown in the last year by about 800% year over year.

[Guy Raz]

It's amazing.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah.

[H]

All right. Given that perspective, I may change my answer a bit on my excitement about international. It sounds sexy to tell people you're shipping to 16 countries or however many countries. I think the one thing most business owners struggle with and I do, is focus. If you've got a rocket ship that would you say 800%, 600 or something like that. Wow. That is where your attention needs to be. As long as you've got your trademarks elsewhere, you're still in control even if you're not selling a single set there. So, yeah, I'd encourage you to make sure the US machine can continue that. And when it is time for international, you know, don't go buy your own warehouse, of course, or do whatever. There's plenty of companies all over the world that you can ship 50 units to them. They'll leave it in the corner and they'll tie to you. Are you on a Shopify site or something like that?

[Peter Hauk]

We run on Shopify.

[H]

Yeah. So you can tie that into a lot of back end suppliers where order comes through, you pour, you forward it and it's done. Yeah, but man, if you're us, us is growing that fast. I, I think that's where your attention needs to be.

[Guy Raz]

I have to agree with that, Chris, I think that, that, you know, for the odd Australian or, or, you know, someone from the UK that's writing in. I mean, there are ways around that. Like, like if, if you're getting a bunch of orders from people in London or Sydney, like, it might be worthwhile partnering with a, a skating shop in London and just flying there twice a year with a suitcase packed with these and just leave them there and have them, have them sell it in the meantime. But to me, it seems like the most fertile ground, the most fertile territory for you is right in your, in your backyard. I mean, the United States and Canada, which is where I think your primary customers are going to be living.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I do think that there's a lot of, of room for us. You know, we. Our ultimate goal is to be one brand that sells figure skaters everything they need to practice the sport of figure skating. You know, hockey as a sport has Bauer as a brand that will sell you everything. And golf has Titleist. But in figure skating, it's really a bunch of mom and pop shops that all sell one or two or three products at most. And so we see a big opportunity for us to come in and roll out 9, 10, 11, 12, whatever, however many products it is that are all aimed specifically at our target market of figure skaters. And to be the name brand for figure skating equipment in the country.

[Guy Raz]

Peter, you gotta put your wife's picture right at the front and center of this brand. National champion figure skater. I mean, she might be reluctant, but it's like, how much better can you be in terms of, of offering expertise?

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Peter Hauk, the brand is called Rink Rabbit. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.

[Peter Hauk]

Yeah, thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it.

[Guy Raz]

All right, man, thanks.

[H]

Thank you, Peter.

[Guy Raz]

Nice. I mean, ice skate, there's no lifestyle brand around. Ice skate like this seems like a big opportunity here, right?

[H]

Absolutely.

[Guy Raz]

That's Chris Ruder, founder of Spikeball. Hey, thanks so much for listening to this special mashup edition of the Advice Line this week. And a special thanks for. Thanks to Travis Boersma of Dutch Bros, Michael Prisman of Everlane, and Chris Ruder of Spikeball for joining me on the show. And if you haven't heard their original episodes or their full episodes of Advice Line, you'll definitely want to check them out. We will put links in the show notes and by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. It is full of ideas and advice on how to run a business and hopefully some inspiring messages as well. Every week we put in tons of insights from entrepreneurship, entrepreneurs and my own experiences and observations interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs in the world. And you can sign up for that on Substack [e-mail] and if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like some help with and hopefully we can help you with them. And please make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and we'll put all of this in the episode description as well, so don't worry. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtin Erabloui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Carla estevez, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Kathryn Seifer, Sam Paulson, Iman Ma' ani, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey trip planner by Expedia.

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