← How I Built This with Guy Raz
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- [00:00]
Guy Raz
Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. And this week we're bringing you a special mashup episode featuring three returning guests and three new callers. You'll hear advice in using AI to grow your business and new ways to break through a crowded social media landscape. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice mem@hibtid.wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free@guyraz.com and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Our first guest is Randy Hetrick. He's the founder and the guy who actually invented trx. Randy first came on How I Built this back in 2017 and he told this wild story about being a Navy SEAL on a remote assignment, rigging an old Jiu Jitsu belt to a door, and basically creating an entirely new way to work out wherever you are. It's an awesome episode. We'll put a link to it in the show notes or just search TRX in our feed. And as you'll hear, Randy's also exactly the right person to talk about how to get a product in front of more people and actually get it noticed. All right, Randy, let's bring in our first caller to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business, please.
- [02:09]
Shereen Khadri
Thanks. Hi Guy and Randy, it's so great to be with you today. My name is Shereen and I co founded Moji Masala with my husband jd. We are a family owned and operated business based in Philly. We started Moji Masala to make it super easy for anyone to make authentic, delicious homemade Indian food from scratch. It's a very intimidating process often and a little complicated, but with Moji Masala you just take one of our 14 pre measured spice packets. You buy a few produce items. You use our recipe to make one specific Indian dish that serves three to five people. And they are my mom's heirloom recipes that I spent two years beta testing to actually create the final product.
- [02:52]
Guy Raz
Nice. Wow. Congrats. Well, welcome, Shireen. Thanks for calling in. So basically these are spice packets and you mix them with like oil or clarified butter or. And add them to a meat or vegetable.
- [03:06]
Shereen Khadri
Yeah, it's a simple process, but it's actually, you're actually cooking the dish as if you like opened up a recipe in a cookbook and they gave you like this list of 15 spices and gave you the like eight steps.
- [03:16]
Guy Raz
Yeah.
- [03:16]
Shereen Khadri
So the hardest part of Indian food is actually aggregating the spices, having a recipe for the blends and then just like knowing what to do with it. Our product packaging is very informative. It has like a shopping list on the back and a QR code that goes to the actual recipe and a cooking video. So there's no guesswork, there's no leftover spices. You're literally just using our product to create like kind of a magical dish. And experience is so seamless that I think it's almost like alarming to people to actually have this experience.
- [03:49]
Guy Raz
By the way, when did you start the business?
- [03:51]
Shereen Khadri
So we really were ready to launch right in late 2019, right before COVID and then coming out of COVID The last couple of years is really when we've pushed hard on our online, but also on retail expansion.
- [04:03]
Guy Raz
And is this your full time job? Is this what both of you guys, you and your husband are working on?
- [04:07]
Shereen Khadri
This is my full time job. It's my husband's halftime job, I would say. And my full time job. Yeah, it's a second career for me.
- [04:15]
Guy Raz
That's awesome. So you launched in 2019. Tell me a little bit about. And are you mainly selling online and through Amazon and retailers? Break that down for me.
- [04:25]
Shereen Khadri
Yeah, we started online and naively thought we could like hit the ground running online. I think it became pretty clear that unless we had like a million dollars that we really had to, we really needed a retail strategy. We got into Citarella about a year ago, which is a seven store chain throughout New York, Connecticut, in the Hamptons. We also got into Fresh Direct and we are in some we, which is a Asian online retailer.
- [04:49]
Guy Raz
Sure. We've done we on the show.
- [04:51]
Shereen Khadri
Yeah.
- [04:51]
Guy Raz
Yep. And tell us what your question is. What's your pain point that you're looking for help with?
- [04:55]
Shereen Khadri
Yes. So Randy, our In store demos have been very successful. We have a sell through rate of over 90% when someone samples our product and actually gets to try it. And we're attracting a wide spectrum of customers, busy families, young people wanting to try something new, vegetarians, vegans. So Randy, just like you had to teach people not only what your product was, but how to use it. We're trying to figure out how to reach this broad array of potential customers that we can't get with a live demo. And we'd love your input on that.
- [05:27]
Randy Hetrick
Well, first of all, Sherene, your description has me salivating. I'm realizing that Indian for lunch would be exquisite right now.
- [05:37]
Guy Raz
Oh, good.
- [05:37]
Randy Hetrick
How are you guys getting your kind of. How are you promoting it early? Like what's, what are you guys doing right now to promote the brand?
- [05:48]
Shereen Khadri
So right now the, the single biggest thing we do is because we have retailers that we want to support. We have a very hub and smoke model for that. We show up regularly at the stores, doing the demos, letting people try it. In terms of spending money, we're on Amazon and then we pay to like, you know, highlight our Amazon where we pay, we do Google to like, hi, our website is, it's not a flat website, it's a very interactive website and because you need to access our recipes and our video. So paying to sort of lead people to our website is productive as far as hopefully leading to sales.
- [06:22]
Randy Hetrick
So I pulled up your website as soon as you started talking and it's friendly and it's inviting. And what I was hoping you were going to say is exactly what you said, which is you're out there sampling because to me something like, I mean, you guys, are you guys profitable at this point on a, just on a monthly operating basis or are you, how are you financing this, in other words?
- [06:48]
Shereen Khadri
Yeah, so the way I. It's self financed, you know, because I had a long career, we did have savings that's not a bottomless sort of savings. So you know, we have to be smarter about our next steps. But one of the things was really important to me was that the process product be profitable. Like so when I, when we sell this product, it is profitable. Now of course there's, I don't know how to think about and this is also, I'd love your input like all the other costs associated with that, you know, as far as marketing and you know, maybe you have to go do trade shows which are thousands and thousands of dollars. And so it's very easy to be, to have.
- [07:21]
Randy Hetrick
Sorry, here's where here's where I, where I was going to go with this is that, you know, I, the reason I asked the question about profitability is because if you don't have, you know, outside investors that are, that are, for instance, you're ticking clock, right, that forces you to do things, you're in a great position right now. If you have a really great product and it certainly sounds like it and looks like it, the question is, how do you get that trial? And I would say to you, given that you don't have external pressures really on you, that what's the rush? But the best way to do this right, is to be out there on the ground letting people try your product and then showing them that you have a website. Because obviously you have to be a little bit careful about going into a retailer's establishment and then trying to drive people to your website. So you gotta be a little bit careful about that. But I think that the idea of figuring out how to scale your sampling program is to me a better and much more sort of long lived way to get customers who are going to fall in love with you. Because look, you can spend a lot of money putting your, your food's avatar in front of me, but if I can't smell it and I can't taste it, it's lost in the noise. Whereas if you put it in my mouth and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is delicious. Now you've got me, right? So to me, I would spend less time at the moment, given where you guys are doing paid media, and more time actually having people get your product in their mouth.
- [09:04]
Shereen Khadri
Yes. I love that you have that reaction because I think instinctively we think that and we're two people and I'm, you know, we had the opportunity, for example, to go national. We deferred that because it just takes a lot of money. And we knew we can't have success without demos. And that would mean probably hiring a demo team. Then I was like, of course, who's going to represent on a demo team the way I can, probably nobody. And then it was like, oh, then we have to train them, so on and so forth. So it became a bigger idea, but then also more murky as to, is that the way to do it? Should I be hiring people? Should I work with outside people? Should I just go myself and, and do like 10 stores hard and do it all like me because I'm the one who's gonna sell best?
- [09:51]
Randy Hetrick
Well, I don't think you're gonna be able to be the chief, the Sampler in chief all the time. Right. I can tell you, having done that with my straps, you sort of run out of you pretty quickly. But you're gonna have to make some choices on where you spend your money, right? Cause you don't have a ton of it. And I don't think it would be prudent right now to go get a ton of it from someone else.
- [10:12]
Mei Shu
But.
- [10:12]
Randy Hetrick
And then I think that a little bit of money can probably go a fairly long way in an organic sampling program. And you'll know at the point at which you really start to have momentum. And now you're like, okay, how do we amplify this? And then you'll have the next decision to make, right. Do you do it through paid media or do you step up your sampling program, you know, another level?
- [10:41]
Guy Raz
Yes, I think, I think, Randy, you're exactly right. I would just add to that that, that you can do some of this concurrently. Like, I'm not sure that you need to do one before you do the next. Like, I do think that it's true. This is something you want to sample. People want to smell this. It's going to smell so delicious, right? But here's the thing. And you know, this there is my kids right now, as we speak, are at my house in the kitchen making steak sandwiches based on a YouTuber, right? Because they follow a YouTuber and they told. And they went to the store and got all the stuff and they're making. So, so many people now are making recipes based on what they're seeing on Instagram and YouTube. I'm talking about micro influencers who might be, you know, maybe it's somebody who's just a really interesting food, you know, micro influencer around food. And you end up, you work with them and you partner with them and you say, all right, we're going to put like 20,000 bucks into this, which is no small amount of cash, right? But you say, let's think really strategically. Let's really kind of find out who's out there. And by the way, you can use AI to help you with this, to help you find and identify some of these sort of medium to micro. And a micro influencer is somebody with like 10 to 50,000 followers, right? Yes, you do want people to smell this and try this, but you want people to see it too. And it's hard to scale an in store demo, right. The way to do it is through the right partner. And food influencers are enormous. It's still a grow as far as I understand. It's still a growing sector in a lot of these social media platforms.
- [12:21]
Shereen Khadri
That's a good point you make, Guy, because we have worked with influencers, but I hadn't really put the number around it the way you have. And I think as opposed to 300 here, 500 there, let's see what we get. Really sort of saying, okay, we're gonna have a twenty thousand dollar budget for fifteen months and really maybe go deep with two or three people with that. I don't know if that would go.
- [12:42]
Guy Raz
And spend the time really following these people and looking at what they're doing and seeing how much engagement they're getting. Oftentimes people put their engagement numbers right there on their Instagram or TikTok. You can see how many views. So I would start by doing some search searches and looking at AI and having them help you and having to help you and then looking at some of these influencers and picking a few and just saying, you know what, we got 20 grand to work with over the next year and we're gonna start to seed this cash.
- [13:09]
Randy Hetrick
Yeah, I love that idea where I was sort of thinking more that I would shy away from is doing sort of big paid ad buys.
- [13:18]
Guy Raz
Right.
- [13:19]
Randy Hetrick
Because I think, I think, you know, spending a bunch of money on, you know, on Facebook platform or any other platform to take an ad and project, it isn't really where you need to be right now. I totally agree with Guy that if you can find, you know, some fun, quirky, foodie influencers with followings and get them to show just how cool and easy and tasty this thing is to use, that'd be a great way to do it. And you wouldn't spend a bunch of cash.
- [13:49]
Shereen Khadri
I love it. It's a great two pronged strategy. It's great advice.
- [13:52]
Guy Raz
Shereen Khadri. The brand is called Moji Masala. Congrats. Good luck. Thank you so much for calling in.
- [13:56]
Shereen Khadri
Thanks so much.
- [13:57]
Guy Raz
All right, thanks. This to me is such a great product because it's not, it's, it's not process, it's just, it's a spice blend and it, and it gives you the step by step instruction. So it's really cool. It's really great.
- [14:10]
Randy Hetrick
Yeah. You know who did kind of a fun job on what you're talking about without any influencers. They were trying to create the Persona and they're spending a lot of money doing it. Was. Hellofresh. Right. Some of the stuff that they did with meals.
- [14:24]
Guy Raz
Yes.
- [14:24]
Randy Hetrick
Where you would watch their kind of what looked to be organic user content, but showing just how easy it is to put it together. And it really made you want to do it. And so I love the idea of using actually some micro influencers instead of paid media.
- [14:43]
Guy Raz
Yes. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, a jigsaw puzzle brand gets social media advice from the founder of a restaurant chain worth billion, billions of dollars. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to a special mashup episode of advice line on how I built this. Hey, welcome back to the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. So up next is Todd Graves, the founder of Raising Canes, the fried chicken tender chain. Todd first came on the show back in 2022 and we'll drop a link to that episode in the show notes. And what's always stuck with me about his business is how he built a billion dollar business without constantly changing the menu or adding a bunch of new options. And as you'll hear, Todd has a lot to say about why staying focused on your core business is often the real key to long term success. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice line. You're on with Todd Graves. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a line or two about your business.
- [16:04]
Valerie Abinroth
Hi, Guy. Hi, Todd. I'm Valerie. I'm calling from Boise, Idaho. I am a co owner, co founder of three unique new jigsaw puzzle companies. Learn about life, Large as life and laugh with life. Our company creates conversation starting jigsaw puzzles that spark laughter, curiosity and connection through play.
- [16:25]
Guy Raz
Awesome. Valerie, thanks for calling in. All right. Large as life, these are jigsaw puzzles. Am I to assume that they are large as life? They're giant jigsaw puzzles.
- [16:34]
Valerie Abinroth
Yes. So that was our first line that we came up with in 2024. They are life size animal jigsaw puzzles. 50 pieces. So they're the large pieces and there is a trivia question about the animal on the back of every piece.
- [16:48]
Guy Raz
Wow. What animals do you guys make puzzles out of?
- [16:51]
Valerie Abinroth
So we just have three out to start out with. We have a red panda, we have a king penguin and we have a koala. And right now in production we have a life size bald eagle with a six foot wingspan. That one's 100 pieces. 100 trivia questions that should be coming out this year by the end of the year.
- [17:07]
Guy Raz
Not doing a blue whale yet?
- [17:09]
Valerie Abinroth
Not yet. Might be a little cost prohibitive.
- [17:12]
Guy Raz
Yeah. So tell me how this business came about how did this idea come about?
- [17:16]
Shereen Khadri
Yeah.
- [17:17]
Valerie Abinroth
So my sister in law, Courtney, she was visiting Yellowstone and she made note in her mind passing all of these don't get so close to the bison signs, which people unfortunately often ignore. And she was just thinking about that and she went into the gift shop and she thought, you know what, I wish there was something that I could bring home that we could undo on our kitchen floor. We could lay down next to it and see the scale of the size and we could have a life size bison and then put it all back in a box and put it on a shelf. And she is a mom of four and a teacher as well. And so she's done lots of puzzles and such. She said, oh, this is the perfect idea. Life size animal puzzles.
- [18:01]
Guy Raz
And I'm assuming these are sold on your website?
- [18:03]
Valerie Abinroth
Yes. So we started out fulfilling orders through our website, realized that since nobody knew who we were, we weren't getting many sales on our website. And once we got started on Amazon, which was About June of 2024, we just moved all our sales there for simplicity and sales tax remittances and things like that. So right now we have a website and our products link all to our Amazon accounts.
- [18:28]
Guy Raz
Yeah. And tell us a little bit about how the business is doing, give us a sense of what your sales are right now.
- [18:33]
Valerie Abinroth
Sure. So 2024, since starting on Amazon in June, we made about $30,000 in revenue. And then this year we're projected to definitely be more than that. I don't know if it will quite hit double that. It's kind of hard to tell because some of our additional products just came out right toward the end of quarter four last year and we're just starting puzzle season, so it's hard to get a accurate estimate of what we think we might be projected to do this year. But.
- [19:04]
Guy Raz
All right, before we dive in a little bit more, tell us your question.
- [19:06]
Valerie Abinroth
Yes. So my question is our three puzzle brands all share the same heart, but they have distinct personalities. As we create a parent company to tie them together, I'm wondering what's more effective for social media strategy. Is it one unified account under the parent brand or separate accounts that let each brand speak directly to its audience?
- [19:30]
Guy Raz
And just to be clear, you've got the animals puzzles and then you mentioned trivia puzzles.
- [19:35]
Shereen Khadri
Yes.
- [19:35]
Valerie Abinroth
So we have these life size animal trivia puzzles. Then we have Laugh with Life line that incorporates jokes as well. And then learn about life that's just trivia on a variety of topics.
- [19:47]
Guy Raz
And you're promoting all of these separately separate social media channels to separate audiences Currently, yes.
- [19:53]
Valerie Abinroth
Even though there's a connecting component that they all have a conversational element integrated in them and they all have the same high quality standards and everything else. I'm not sure. Do I just stick with each focus of each of those brands or do I put them all in one where it's easier to find, but maybe it looks a little bit more jumbled.
- [20:15]
Guy Raz
All right, I want to bring Todd Graves in here. You guys have mastered social media. It's amazing with canes. So thoughts? Questions for Valerie.
- [20:23]
Todd Graves
Yeah, so Valerie, when you. When you said it's distinct, you know, it's distinct audiences between the three brands, right? And so if you have three different, you know, social channels, I mean, you know, literally are they separate voices? So I mean, are you having. Let's just say, for example, if you had some influencers would want, would they be like that? Are you marketing them very differently? Are you just showing your product to the different audiences and it resonates because they're into animals or into laughter or whatever?
- [20:48]
Valerie Abinroth
I think it's more the latter. I mean, I've had some influencers. I've had some homeschool moms and homeschool influencers on the one channel. And then I've had some people who are big into maybe speed puzzling or thousand piece puzzle collectors who have shown our product on some of the other lines. But I can't say that overall we've had any huge push that totally pulls us away from puzzling in general.
- [21:14]
Todd Graves
Okay, so I'll just give you some experiences. Look, I think we're pretty good at social media for Canes and. But that's what I know. We, we feed the people and, and our customer demographics range from old, elderly couples that like to come into the restaurant because we're reasonably priced. And I like our friendly crew. And look, everybody likes fried chicken, right? And cane sauce. But then that goes down to all the way to kids, right? And so there are social media. I don't do different social media, you know, handles to where you go to different, different type deals. We only have. It's three. One is Raising Cain's corporate account. One is mine. Right, the founder. And one is my dog, Kane. Three. Right, Our mascot. But we collab constantly and we reach sports fans. We have people that love actors and actresses that are going around. We have people that like all forms of music. Right. We have people with so many different interests. What you're uniting forces are people that like puzzles and like to have Fun, Right. And like to do things. I think the people that would like the, you know, the trivia based or the fun side would also love to see some beautiful puzzles of bison that are life size. I think all that can go together and actually creates more content for an interesting content for your audience versus I'm just watching the one that done with the whole homeschool group and this is educational. They're missing out on seeing the bison, they're missing out on seeing these other ones. And I think the core goes together and I think when you can focus on that, it's kind of more of a win for everybody. And I also think expands your sales because I think they look across your products and say, hey, you know, it would be fun for us to do that tabletop puzzle and let's buy that. That's just my opinion. Thank you.
- [22:50]
Guy Raz
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean social media isn't necessarily about products. It's about stories, right. People are looking for like a vibe or a personality. But I think what you are selling is an emotional thing. It's an experience. You're selling families together, gathering together. It's family time, right? That's what your brand is. That's what your product is. It's not puzzles. It's not even the 10 other things you might make. It's the time that a parent and a child or parents are going to take to gather around and make this stuff and be together. And that's really what your brand is, right? And that's why you want to speak about that with one voice. Does that make sense?
- [23:34]
Valerie Abinroth
Yes. Yes.
- [23:35]
Todd Graves
Yeah. And then you can also, you focus your you know, like content, right? You can focus on interesting things that all puzzle people and all, all families like together, like let's say who's the fastest puzzle builder, right? Takes your thousand piece puzzle and does it and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever that puzzle is, it's about that's exciting that someone did it as a family. Let's try to do it quicker, right. Valerie had so and so on and showed us how to do puzzles quick. And you can and that's that that's unified across all your, your audience and that's also too what people start sharing. So I'd hate you to do that one idea on the 1000 puzzle thing that goes to the one audience and then the animal lovers didn't ever see that. Right? You want that and the engagement goes and you got more people talking about it and more people that will then start following you. Right. And when they share it and they engage it and they comment on it. That's when it really, the algorithms really kick up.
- [24:20]
Valerie Abinroth
Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
- [24:21]
Guy Raz
I mean, I even noticed you've got different websites for laugh with life and learn about life and I mean it would just save you time, money and just, you know, brain space by just putting it all under one. I would put everything on the main site, the largest life or pick one, whatever one has the most traffic. And you sell everything there. You make that your brand.
- [24:44]
Valerie Abinroth
Yeah, that makes a lot more sense in terms of ease as well as more people getting to see what we have to offer. When I focus on the common elements and common themes of puzzling and togetherness, it flows.
- [24:56]
Todd Graves
Yeah, yeah, it flows throughout all of them. Right. And it's like Guy said, you know, people should know what you stand for, right? We're puzzle people, but really about family, spending time together, doing something very fun, that goes through that. That's our core, right? And then your products, and you can keep adding products, right. Other puzzles might hit another group of fan base and things like that, but it's one voice that goes through and also too is, you know, holiday times coming up. So I'm already thinking about how do I order your puzzles, Right. But if I have one place to go look at it. I got a nephew that's so into sports, right. But I also have a daughter that's so into animals. So like a life size bison on the floor, that's going to be a blast. But if I had to go to different places and look at that, I couldn't order for the five or six people I want to do and the people that when they all come to the house, they can all open the different puzzles and I got people that are into trivia and all that. They can all. We can all like do all those together. But we had one spot and I bought six things versus I only knew about the one.
- [25:48]
Valerie Abinroth
Right. That's a really great point. Well, currently we can't, you know, they're all sold on Amazon so that's one one stop shop for them. But there's nowhere to find them all in one place before you go there. So I completely see what you're saying. That's a perfect recommendation. Thank you.
- [26:05]
Guy Raz
Awesome. All right, large as life. Valerie Abinroth, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.
- [26:10]
Valerie Abinroth
Thank you so much. And if I could just mention real quick, I have listened to your show for so many years, Guy. It's been so motivational, inspirational for me. I'm so grateful. I just appreciate so much you sharing your stories and guy, you giving the platform for us to be able to hear these and be inspired by them.
- [26:28]
Guy Raz
Thank you for letting us know. Really appreciate it. That's why we do it. We do it for those reasons. Thank you for calling in.
- [26:32]
Todd Graves
Good luck, Valerie.
- [26:33]
Guy Raz
Thank you.
- [26:34]
Todd Graves
Well, you know, but Valerie, doing that, that's a good question. Right? And doing it, I think that was some good advice for her. And, and to bring it all together, I think she'll see some good success over that. You know, hope for her, too. Is that getting the word out is, is the thing.
- [26:47]
Guy Raz
Right.
- [26:48]
Todd Graves
And that can be done cheaply through influencers and doing. And then she should, you know, hit her local sources to get as much news and press as she can. She's got a great story. Right. And they're doing, doing well. She just, she, she needs sales. What she needs, she needs more people knowing about it.
- [27:04]
Guy Raz
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, a collar gets some great AI Advice that could change how she builds her product. Stick around. You're listening to a mashup episode of the advice line on how I built this Lab. Hey, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So our last returning guest is Mei Shu. She's the founder of Chesapeake bay candle, and May first came on the show back in 2017. And we'll drop a link to that episode in the show notes as well. Mei's story is incredible. She's a Chinese immigrant who got her start in the candle business by experimenting with scents and then pouring wax literally into Campbell's soup cans in her basement. And the company really took off. She eventually sold it for $75 million. And in a moment, you'll hear Mei bring that same inventive thinking to a new challenge as she helps brainstorm how AI could help grow a very niche toy and book business. All right, let's bring in our final caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Mei Shoe. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business, please.
- [28:25]
Avni Modi
Hi, Guy. Hi, May. I'm Abni Modi.
- [28:27]
Shereen Khadri
Sir Gar.
- [28:28]
Avni Modi
I'm calling from New Jersey. I am the co founder of Modi Toys, a brand that helps Indian families in the diaspora stay connected to their roots through our plush choice and matching children's books inspired by Hindu culture.
- [28:40]
Guy Raz
All right, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in. All right, so you make plush dolls that are designed For Indians who are practicing Hindus.
- [28:50]
Mei Shu
Correct.
- [28:51]
Avni Modi
It's primarily for the Hindu community. Of course, not everyone that's Indian identifies themselves as Hindu and vice versa. We've noticed that those living outside of India really resonate with our products because they are the ones who have this deep rooted connection to want to stay connected to the Indian roots.
- [29:10]
Guy Raz
Got it.
- [29:10]
Randy Hetrick
Okay.
- [29:10]
Guy Raz
And these are plush dolls that are. Tell me a bit more about them. Yeah.
- [29:16]
Avni Modi
So these are plush toys that when you squeeze their belly, they sing five sacred, ancient Hindu mantras. And we have a collection of a total of seven. And they come in three sizes. The mini, the medium, and the mega. And they also come with a corresponding children's book which is written in rhyming verses. So it's really meant to introduce the Hindu culture to kids in a really fun experience, accessible way.
- [29:42]
Guy Raz
And the plush toys are there animals. Tell me, describe them a little bit.
- [29:48]
Avni Modi
Yeah. So if you're familiar with Greek mythology, how there's, you know, Zeus, the God of war, Venus, the goddess of love. Similarly, in Hinduism, each God and goddess also represents some quality. So Ganesh, which is the elephant headed God, but Ganesh is the most most widely known. He is considered to be the God of good luck, the one that is who's most widely worshipped. We have Hanuman, the God of strength. We have Durga, the goddess of protection. So, you know, what we have learned is that although we designed the toys for kids because of what they symbolize, they really resonate with people of all ages within the Hindu community.
- [30:32]
Guy Raz
I was looking, I mean, massive, addressable market. There's over a billion Hindus on the planet, but it sounds like you're focused on diaspora and maybe Hindus living in the West.
- [30:41]
Avni Modi
We definitely have the biggest market here in the US and in fact, my co founder, who's my brother, he moved back to India with his family really, to try to grow the market there in India, specifically because we learned just through the demands that we were seeing from customers there, that they wanted our products there as well. So we know that there is a global market, but I think in terms of price point and who the messaging connects with the most is the diaspora.
- [31:12]
Guy Raz
And how much does it cost?
- [31:14]
Avni Modi
So our toys range anywhere from 1650 for the mini size to $55 for the mega size. And we also sell them as bundles.
- [31:24]
Guy Raz
And you started, you launched us in 2018, you said.
- [31:26]
Avni Modi
Correct in late 2018.
- [31:28]
Guy Raz
And how, how what, what are you guys doing in sales per year?
- [31:33]
Avni Modi
So that's kind of what leads me to my question.
- [31:36]
Guy Raz
Please. Yes. Yeah.
- [31:38]
Avni Modi
So we did really well. When we first launched, we saw strong year over year growth through organic buzz and just through the community love with little to, you know, no paid ads between 2018-2021. In fact, we hit nearly a million dollars in sales in 2021. But over the last three years, sales have declined, declined despite us launching more SKUs, investing in marketing and expanding to India. So my question is, how do we reignite growth and scale strategically and reach our true potential?
- [32:11]
Guy Raz
All right, Mei Xu, I want to bring you in. This is, it's interesting because it's obviously a doll that is directed towards a specific community, but a huge community, right? I mean in the US alone I was seeing there's three, three and a half million Hindus. So, you know, interesting opportunity.
- [32:27]
Mei Shu
There's, I'm always curious, do you see a competition usually, you know, there might be someone that you cultivated over the years.
- [32:39]
Avni Modi
We have definitely inspired copycats in the past couple of years, but I don't think they are the reason why our sales have declined. I think the reason why we did so well initially is because we grew tremendously on social media. And of course, you know, the algorithms are constantly evolving, so you can't really control, you know, how many people you're reaching through social media. But you know, in 2022 onward is when we started seeing the decline. So I think some of it is macroeconomic conditions as well. But, you know, it still doesn't address the fact that we've continued introducing new products, which is really important in the toy industry. So where is the discount connect coming from is what I'm trying to understand.
- [33:21]
Guy Raz
Avni, what, what kind of like, resources do you have to work with, like marketing resources? Like do you have, you know, can you spend, you know, 20, 30, $40,000? It's a lot. I'm just curious.
- [33:35]
Avni Modi
We actually do spend almost that much just on Google and meta ads. I am the marketing team. I am the marketing interning cs. But, but yeah, I mean that's the extent of money that we spend currently on marketing. We do email marketing and paid ads.
- [33:52]
Guy Raz
I, I obviously I want to be sensitive because I'm not. I'm, you know, I don't know all the nuances of, of, of every, you know, religious tradition. But I wonder whether I'm looking at this and I'm thinking especially with AI technology and the ability to create animations very quickly and cheaply, like I see an opportunity to make animated, just little animated shorts, like 45 seconds to 2 minutes that are tied to the tradition and the culture, you Know, it's like Paw Patrol doesn't make money from the cartoons. Yeah. The movies do, but they make money from their selling lunch boxes and stuffed animals and pajamas. You know, that's really. You're basically, you know, obviously these are sacred characters, but they're characters. Right. And so to me, it seems like there's an opportunity to really try and reach especially audiences in Canada and the United States and the uk, where you've got a huge Hindu diaspora. Have you ever thought about trying animation?
- [35:03]
Avni Modi
Absolutely. So in fact, the board books that we have to correspond with, the plush toys, they're available on our YouTube channel completely for free. Three, we've turned them into animated videos. But just off of those, those like seven books that we have. But those videos have garnered, you know, hundreds of thousands of views. So we know that there's definitely a demand for that. But we have not created independent animated material that's unrelated to the books. But yes, absolutely, that's something that we would love to do. But I don't know if it's as. As easy even with AI or, or.
- [35:38]
Guy Raz
Even it's not simple, but it's a lot easier now. I mean, I can tell you that it's a lot easier than ever before. And we do some of this with my kids company and I've even experimented with it. It's not perfect yet, but there's a lot you can do. And I wonder whether it's worth kind of exploring that, seeing if you could take a little bit of the cash you have for marketing and seeing. Seeing if you could build a few short videos, just morality tales or cool, you know, little stories that are revolving around the, you know, these characters but. But animated that tie back to what you're selling.
- [36:13]
Avni Modi
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's definitely a demand. In fact, I think I recently heard that the two or three of the top five YouTube channels in the world currently are kids channels. So there's definitely a demand and market for that.
- [36:26]
Guy Raz
I don't know, I don't know how it works on social media, but can you target Hindus? Can you target. Target people from India? Expats?
- [36:34]
Avni Modi
Absolutely. You know, we're trying all possible avenues and we try so many. And in fact, you know, may. One of the things that really excited me when I learned you were gonna be on the show is that, you know, like you, I'm also an immigrant. I have no background in the business that I'm in. I'm also in business with my sibling like you were with your sister. And you know, we're Also in the novelty business and.
- [36:56]
Mei Shu
But it doesn't have to be. Can I give you an idea? Maybe you tell me if it works. It is guy that inspired me. What if you make this an interactive AI driven conversational doll? Because just making a doll at some point, if there's no interaction with people, they get tired of it. And you can't really expand on just a doll. But what if you make it so that it's interactive, a kid can ask questions about what does this God stand for and why are you important in the history of the culture? And how does that relate to each other? And what would you do if I have this situation, what would you do so that using AI it becomes a talking God? I want one of those. Oh, wow.
- [37:47]
Avni Modi
I want one too now.
- [37:49]
Mei Shu
And you can have a subscription program where you subscribe to one doll, you get one prize, you subscribe to two dolls, it's a different price and each one stands for something that can help you, giving you different directions in life.
- [38:04]
Avni Modi
Oh, fascinating. So I have no idea how the mechanics would work behind a technology like that, but that sounds really interesting because you're writing right now, it's somewhat static and that I can only sing these five mantras and that's it. But yeah, what if it was more interactive in almost like real time?
- [38:22]
Guy Raz
Yeah, it could be interesting. I mean there you would probably need to raise some money to do the R and D. But you, you know an embedded chip in there that's WI fi connected and you know, essentially you've got a plush computer. Right. And that could be more. You'd have to produce guardrails around that. You know, you want the doll to be focused on primarily what it is. But it could be interesting.
- [38:44]
Shereen Khadri
Yeah.
- [38:44]
Avni Modi
It would have to come with a disclosure.
- [38:46]
Mei Shu
There are a lot of good engineers. That's in the Hindu culture and that's.
- [38:50]
Guy Raz
Where some of the greatest engineers come from. India.
- [38:53]
Mei Shu
Exactly. You could build it with the resources back in your home country, like I did. Right. It's not that you are an outsider. You have a very unique advantage that none of us have, which is the ability to close that cultural gap, but also having a resilient workforce.
- [39:14]
Guy Raz
Yeah. I would also. I would just one last thing, just from a business perspective. Right. And we talked about the addressable market here and it's significance. I mean, it's not insignificant at all. I would also just think sort of in the long term, as you look out on the horizon, if you're focused on, especially on diaspora communities and on igniting interest in Hindu culture and Indian culture. You know, you've got books, you've got the plush dolls. But think about your business in a bigger way than just a business about dolls or books, but a business about getting people to become more knowledgeable about their history and culture and their religion. And so from that sort of thought process you build out other products, other things, other offerings that also feed into that mission.
- [40:06]
Avni Modi
Absolutely. We are definitely looking at building out more digital content that will be available for purchase as well. But a lot of that came from content that we're putting out on social media. And we've noticed that those posts that are educational in nature tend to have the most engagement in terms of saves and shares. So. And many people have actually asked like, I wish this was like available like in a book format so that, that I could just easily access it. So that's exactly what we're doing and we're converting all that into a digital downloadable asset.
- [40:36]
Guy Raz
Nice. Mei Xu. Any last thoughts?
- [40:40]
Mei Shu
No. I think you are hitting a great core, I think with this cultural bound knowledge base, but could be very AI driven and very interactive. I think that's the key words to be a, to have a sustainable business model.
- [40:56]
Guy Raz
The brand is called Modi Toys. Afni, thanks so much for calling in.
- [40:59]
Avni Modi
Thank you so much for having me. Thanks.
- [41:01]
Guy Raz
Good luck. Yeah, I mean it's, it's a, it's interesting because, you know, we, we don't often get products on the show that are really targeting a specific group. But I mean, when you're talking about a group that is so large, I mean it is, it's, it's like, it's almost like, you know, when your entire marketplace is just the United States. Right. You can, you can build a very robust company just in the US because there's 300 million people. But if you're trying to build, you know, a massive brand in like Norway with 4 million people, it's a little harder. A little harder. You got, you really have to export that, you know, throughout Europe.
- [41:37]
Mei Shu
So I know you recently interviewed my friend Larry. That started we. And I was just gonna say this is what happened. Right. With such a very fringe idea back in 2017 or 2014. Yeah, right.
- [41:53]
Guy Raz
And for people who don't know that story, he sells, he started out by selling Asian home delivered products, like Asian food products. And now it's, you know, all kinds and different, you know, not just Chinese, but Korean and things from Taiwan and Japan and, and, and, and sort of Latino food products. And it's so, it's really interesting what they built.
- [42:15]
Mei Shu
Yeah, Culture Bound.
- [42:19]
Guy Raz
Hey, thanks so much for listening to this special mashup edition of the Advice Line. And special thanks to Randy Hetrick of trx, Todd Graves of Raising Canes, and May Shue of Chesapeake Bay Candles for joining me on the show. And again, if you haven't heard their original episodes or their full episodes of Advice Line, you'll definitely want to check them out. We'll have links in the show notes and by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free free at guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Rommel Wood with music composed by Ramtina Rabloui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, J.C. howard, Kerry Thompson, Katherine Cipher, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Ross and you've been listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.