Advice Line with Andy Dunn of Bonobos

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz
Episode Title: Advice Line with Andy Dunn of Bonobos
Release Date: April 17, 2025
Host: Guy Raz
Guest: Andy Dunn, Co-founder of Bonobos and Founder of Pie
Description: In this episode, Guy Raz welcomes Andy Dunn back to discuss his journey with Bonobos, his struggles with mental health, the creation of his new social app Pie, and offers valuable advice to entrepreneurs facing their own business challenges.

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1. Introduction

Guy Raz opens the episode by welcoming Andy Dunn, acknowledging his previous appearance on the show where Andy shared the story of building Bonobos into a multimillion-dollar apparel brand. Raz highlights Andy’s openness about his mental health struggles, which has become a significant part of his purpose and mission.

Notable Quote:

"[...] this has really become a really important part of your sort of purpose in life, to talk about this and to be open about it and to help other entrepreneurs understand that there are a lot of mental health challenges that are involved in starting a business."
— Guy Raz [04:17]

2. Andy Dunn’s Background and Bonobos’ Journey

Andy reflects on Bonobos’ inception during his time at Stanford Business School with co-founder Brian Spaly. He recounts the company’s growth and eventual acquisition by Walmart for around $300 million in 2017. Andy discusses the personal and professional challenges he faced during this period, including significant mental health issues.

Notable Quote:

"My original relationship with mental health was to be in denial of the condition that I had, which is bipolar type 1. [...] it was such a blessing that I got a wake-up call in 2016."
— Andy Dunn [05:13]

3. Mental Health Challenges and Personal Experiences

Andy delves deeper into his mental health journey, describing a pivotal moment in 2016 that led to his diagnosis of bipolar disorder. He shares the difficult experience of being in the psych ward and how this event transformed his approach to life and business. This period of his life inspired him to openly discuss mental health and influenced the creation of his new venture, Pie.

Notable Quote:

"In retrospect, best thing that ever happened to me because it informed not only my new life's work of talking about it openly and trying to help other people on this journey, it also inspired my new company, Pie."
— Andy Dunn [05:59]

4. Founding Pie: A Social App for Friendships

Moving forward, Andy introduces Pie, a social app designed to help individuals form genuine friendships and participate in real-life social events. He explains how relocating from New York to Chicago during the pandemic left him feeling isolated, which motivated him to create Pie. The app aims to bridge the gap for people struggling to build new social connections, especially men over 40 who often find it challenging to expand their social circles beyond family.

Notable Quote:

"We could go so deep into this. We even at PIE had to introduce a series called Dudes Getting Pancakes to create the lowest possible barrier to just meeting some new guys."
— Andy Dunn [07:17]

5. Business Advice for Entrepreneurs

The core of the episode revolves around addressing listener questions through the Advice Line. Two callers, Michelle Cosentino of Top Banana and Alex Supak of Broda Beverage Co., seek guidance on scaling their businesses. Andy and Guy provide strategic advice on marketing, pricing, wholesale versus direct-to-consumer models, and leveraging influencer partnerships.

Caller 1: Michelle Cosentino, Top Banana

Michelle seeks advice on effectively marketing her vintage-inspired women's tennis apparel to Gen Y consumers. Andy emphasizes the importance of Instagram for brand growth and suggests building an army of brand ambassadors by gifting products rather than paying high-profile influencers.

Notable Quote:

"I think it's all about Instagram for the evolution you're making, because Gen X is there and Gen Y is there in droves."
— Andy Dunn [15:20]

He further advises embracing the brand’s price point and considering wholesale opportunities, especially targeting high-end boutiques and resort gift shops to scale the business effectively.

Notable Quote:

"If you can find someone brand aligned, and it's probably someone who at some point, like, you send the product to and loves it."
— Andy Dunn [18:14]

Caller 2: Alex Supak, Broda Beverage Co.

Alex seeks strategies to educate consumers about the transparency and quality of his alcohol products while increasing online sales. Andy challenges the effectiveness of focusing solely on e-commerce and recommends prioritizing wholesale partnerships with major retailers to scale efficiently.

Notable Quote:

"You can't increase sales on the website and you shouldn't try. [...] focus all your energy into wholesale."
— Andy Dunn [45:29]

He also advises Sabrina Nass (another caller) to consider subscription models and to adjust pricing to be competitive within the market. Andy underscores the necessity of being the least expensive option while maintaining a strong brand presence to compete with established players.

Notable Quote:

"You’ve got to be like head to head. I would want you to be the least expensive biscotti on the market with the best brand."
— Andy Dunn [49:05]

6. Key Takeaways and Insights

Throughout the episode, Andy Dunn shares valuable lessons learned from his entrepreneurial journey:

• Prioritize Mental Health: Acknowledging and addressing mental health challenges is crucial for sustainable business growth.
• Embrace Tactical Marketing: Utilize platforms like Instagram and build genuine relationships with brand ambassadors to enhance visibility.
• Wholesale Over Direct-to-Consumer: Leveraging wholesale partnerships with established retailers can offer scalability that direct-to-consumer models may lack.
• Competitive Pricing: Ensure products are competitively priced to attract a broader customer base without compromising brand quality.
• Adaptability and Resilience: Being willing to pivot and adapt business strategies in response to market feedback and personal experiences is essential.

Notable Quote:

"Companies don't die because the companies fail. They die because the entrepreneur gives up."
— Andy Dunn [54:00]

7. Conclusion

Guy Raz wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to explore Andy Dunn’s previous appearance on How I Built This to gain deeper insights into building a successful brand. He also invites entrepreneurs to share their business challenges through the Advice Line for future episodes.

Notable Quote:

"Bonobos was and you know, is a premium brand. [...] you have the best."
— Guy Raz [16:11]

Andy concludes by reflecting on his experiences and the importance of candor and courage in leadership, which have been instrumental in his growth as an entrepreneur.

Notable Quote:

"Just do what's right for the company. I'm going to say what's on my mind."
— Andy Dunn [54:13]

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Episode Highlights:

• Andy Dunn’s journey from co-founding Bonobos to launching Pie.
• Overcoming mental health challenges and integrating personal well-being into business strategies.
• Strategic advice on marketing, pricing, and scaling for emerging entrepreneurs.
• Real-world applications of wholesale versus direct-to-consumer models.
• The importance of adaptability, resilience, and authentic brand storytelling.

For More Information:

• Listen to Delightful Episodes: Check out Andy Dunn’s previous episode on building Bonobos for a comprehensive understanding of his entrepreneurial journey.
• Join the Conversation: Entrepreneurs can participate in future advice lines by calling 1-800-433-1298 or sending a voice memo to hibtid.wondery.com.

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Produced by: Catherine Cipher
Music Composed by: Ramtin Arablouei
Edited by: John Isabella
Audio Engineer: Sina Lofredo
Production Staff: Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Casey Herman, J.C. Howard, Iman Maani, Chris Massini, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson.

Listen to How I Built This: Available on the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and exclusive early access with Wondery+.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to how I built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Peloton has what you need to achieve your fitness goals. No matter why you got started. From four week strength building classes to running, indoor and outdoor workouts and everything in between, Peloton will push you to achieve your goals. Peloton also helps you get stronger with workout generators and personalized programs on the peloton Tread and StrengthPlus app. It's backed by thousands of members whose lives have been changed by Peloton and the community around it. Find your push Find your power with [e-mail] and now a quick vital break. A little more from our sponsor, Vital Proteins. What is Vital Proteins? It's a supplement that has four benefits all in one product. It helps support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. Because as we get older, especially after age 30, our body's natural collagen production can start to decline by 1% per year, which can lead to things like fine lines, saggy skin, and your bones and joints just not moving the way they used to. Vital Proteins can help. They're the number one brand of collagen peptides in the U.S. i take a serving of vital proteins every day to help me look, feel and move my best, and I can really, really see the results. Get 20% off by going to vitalproteins.com and entering promo code BILT at checkout. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Did you know that 2 in 5 homeowners experience water leak damage? That means nearly half of us are at risk of experiencing catastrophic water damage, whether it's a slow, hidden leak or a sudden pipe burst. And the worst part? Most people don't realize they have a water leak until it's too late. That's why I have the Moen Flow Smart Water Monitor and Shutoff, a smart device that helps you better your odds against water damage before it happens. MoenFlow has flow sense technology and uses AI to analyze your water usage patterns and runs daily microleak tests to detect any irregular activity, including leaks as small as a drop per minute. Moenflow sends real time alerts straight to your phone if it detects any abnormal activity and automatically shuts off your water if it senses a catastrophic leak is about to occur. And the app is super simple and super easy to use. Visit moen.com flow to learn how to protect your home and help stop leaks before they start. That's M-O-E-N.com Flo because when it comes to water damage, Moen knows it's not about luck, it's about being prepared. Automatic shutoff and real time alert capabilities will operate when the device is configured with the proper settings. Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our Number number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Andy Dunn, the co founder of the menswear company Bonobos and the founder of a new social app called Pie, which is focused on bringing people together in real life. Andy, welcome back to the show.

[Andy Dunn]

Thanks for having me. It's good to see you again.

[Guy Raz]

It's great to have you back. You were first on the show in January of 2019, telling the story of building Bonobos into a multi million dollar apparel brand. And if you guys haven't heard that episode, definitely go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the episode description. But the story basically is that you and your co founder, Brian Spaley, you launched bonobos back in 2007. You were both students at Stanford's business school, and then in 2017 the brand was acquired by Walmart for around $300 million. But as we talked later on, because you came back onto the show in the middle of all of this, you were dealing with some pretty significant mental health issues and eventually got diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which you went on to seek treatment for. This has really become a really important part of your sort of purpose in life, to talk about this and to be open about it and to help other entrepreneurs understand that there are a lot of mental health challenges that are involved in starting a business.

[Andy Dunn]

Totally. And it's funny, I got to see Brian two days ago in Austin. And after all we went through and some of the co founder divorce stuff, it was good to see that people can't evolve and relationships can't evolve. And I think that goes for my journey with mental health. My original relationship with mental health was to be in denial of the condition that I had, which is bipolar type 1. And because it is classified as a severe mental illness. Which sounds scary, can sound scarier than it is, but you have to deal with it.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

So it was such a blessing that I got a wake up call in 2016. It did not feel like a blessing at the time. You know, in the psych ward at Bellevue for a week, discharged into handcuffs, charged with assault.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

Got to detail a lot of that in my memoir, Burn Rate. And then in retrospect, best thing that ever happened to me because it informed not only my new life's work of talking about it openly and trying to help other people on this journey, it also inspired my new company, pie, because of the next mental health challenge that I experience. I thought I was sort of sorted out on mental health after I got my bipolar under control. And then we moved. During the pandemic.

[Guy Raz]

You moved from New York to Chicago?

[Andy Dunn]

I did. After, you know, 15 years. Built Bonobos. Up to 600 people there. My whole world was there. All my friends got married there, had a kid there, and then all of a sudden, we moved to Chicago during the pandemic. And then within about a year or two, I was miserable. I had no guy friends for the first time ever. And I didn't belong to any tribe or community beyond the family I was a part of. And that led to the formation of this new company, pie.

[Guy Raz]

And basically, it's an app that's designed to help people form friendships. It's interesting because I think because we're about the same age, and these days, men sort of over 40, they often, especially if they have a family, they tend to focus on their families, their kids and their partners. And they may know a lot of their guys, but they don't actually develop bonds with other guys. It's very common.

[Andy Dunn]

Totally. We could go so deep into this. We even at PIE had to introduce a series called Dudes Getting Pancakes to create the lowest possible barrier to just meeting some new guys, Dudes Getting Pancakes. And it worked. And it's been fun to reach outside of the People that I meet in the day to day and be more intentional about meeting new and different kinds of people and re engaging in things that I used to love doing but I just hadn't done in a long time, like playing basketball and chess and poker and things I like doing. That just kind of went by the wayside.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

As I entered into fatherhood.

[Guy Raz]

It's really interesting and I think there is a. I think there really is an incredible business opportunity there. Right. It's like men's groups, men's clubs kind of like faded away. And I do think we're a moment where people are looking for connection and community and in ways that feel organic. Andy One of the things often comes up on how I built this and I try to address it. The loneliness of being an entrepreneur. And you started this with Brian and then you guys had a falling out. But even so, I mean, even when you have a partner, the stress, the anxiety, the sleepless nights, it requires a lot of work to withstand it. And I wonder now that you have been able to really figure out what was going on in your head while you were running bonobos, if you could kind of give that person advice and say, hey, here's what you want to think about when you're taking care of yourself. What do you. What would you have done differently?

[Andy Dunn]

I would get tactical with my advice. I would say, stop glamorizing low sleep.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

I think that's table stakes for all of us, is good rest. And it's hard. It's hard with a startup, and it's hard with family life. And with both. With both, I actually find it's easier. I remember meeting an entrepreneur who said, look, I built three companies. She said, I built one with young kids, one with older kids, and one with no kids. And that she said, which do you think was the easiest to build? And I said, no kids. And she said, young kids. I said, what do you mean? She said, well, I knew I had these other beings to care for or they would die. And so I had a clear sense of perspective and I had a boundary and a barrier where I couldn't work all the time. And then the other one that's been just super helpful has been quitting drinking. Giving that up was hard, but it's helped because it just sort of. It increases the quality of sleep. So I would say take these tactical steps. And I found building PI is much easier for me than bonobos because my mental fitness regime is in a much better place. And I have a lot more perspective and I have the benefit of having a win under my belt so I don't have the same existential identity thing happening, which is like, oh, if this company fails, I'm a failure. And so pie, I feel like, can enhance how I feel about myself. But it's not the end all, be all.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, no, it's a really, really important perspective, and I think a perspective that a lot of founders just don't get a chance to hear. And we should talk about that more on the show. We will, I promise. So in that spirit, why don't we take some calls?

[Andy Dunn]

Can't wait. I'm so psyched for this guy.

[Guy Raz]

I am, too. I can't wait. So let's bring our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with me and Andy Dunn, co founder of Bonobos. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Hi, guy. Hi, Andy.

[Guy Raz]

Hello.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Thanks for having me. My name is Michelle Cosentino and I'm from Westport, Connecticut. I'm the founder of Top Banana. We make vintage inspired tennis apparel for women.

[Guy Raz]

Cool. All right, well, welcome to the show, Michelle. Thanks for calling. So Westport, Connecticut, and you make tennis apparel? Like, is it athletic apparel, like to play tennis, or is it sort of tennis clothing inspired?

[Michelle Cosentino]

A lot of people do purchase it that don't play tennis, and they just ask me if they can walk their dog in it. But it, it actually is made to play tennis. It's made out of sport fabric that has stretch, moisture management, sun protection. You can go play a three hour.

[Guy Raz]

Match in it, but you can also just wear it and kind of look cool. And it's, as you say, it's a kind of a retro look. Like. Tell me a little bit about the story. How did you start this, this business?

[Michelle Cosentino]

Well, I started this business during COVID and my children were being homeschooled at the time, and I was following the state curriculum and there were many more hours in the day. So I took a few hours and I decided to teach them what I knew something about. And I am a serial entrepreneur. I was a graphic designer, and then I went to grad school for fashion design. So I started teaching them how to start a brand and then how to start an apparel line.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. So you started this brand? It came out of COVID and I would get. I guess I would describe it as sort of like a. Like a kind of a country club look a little bit. Not, not in a. Just kind of. That's the first thing that comes to mind, like somebody Kind of hanging out in Nantucket in the summer, Bar harbor or like Martha's Vineyard.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Yeah, I think that it. The country club look is very popular right now, but it didn't start that way for me. When I was a kid, you could just go to the park and play tennis. There was no barrier for tennis, so I didn't really want to make it elite. And during COVID everybody came out to play tennis and all levels kind of played together. There was something really magical about the way community came together during the pandemic. And that was sort of the impetus for the brand. Rather than make it exclusive, make it fancy, it's kind of for everyone.

[Guy Raz]

All right, Michelle, before we get to more questions, tell us what your question is for us today.

[Michelle Cosentino]

So I originally started, my target audience was someone like myself. I'm a Gen Xer and I had just left New York City and I moved to the suburbs and I was picking up a new hobby. Now I'm expanding my target audience to Gen Y because Gen X ends at like 45. Now I want to go down to 30 and, and I find they're very different crew to market to. So my question is, out of all the options, what is best for Gen Y, is it influencers, is it collaborations, Is it Google Ads, Is it Instagram, or is it TikTok? Because Gen Xers? I don't know. We're not really on TikTok.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. All right. All right, we'll get to your question. And I want to bring in Andy Dunn because I think you know a little bit about apparel. Andy. So first of all, any thoughts on. On what Michelle is building?

[Andy Dunn]

Yeah, first of all, I was just checking out the brand on Instagram and on the site. I love the brand name.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Oh, thanks.

[Andy Dunn]

And I love the vibe, the aesthetic, the colors, that sort of firecracker red. I would, right off the bat, encourage you to be clear that this is an elite brand just based on the price point. And I think I used to, I agree. I used to be delusional about this at Bonobos, where I thought, oh, we are disintermediating the brick and mortar channel. And then, you know, it's a hundred dollar pair of pants. And when I got we, you know, it was sort of counterintuitive. We sold the brand to Walmart. When I got to Walmart, I realized, oh, something like 75% of American men would never pay more than $40 for a pair of chinos. And I had this light bulb moment of I've lived most of my adult life in the Bay Area or New York City. And I'm so proximate to people of means that I think of a hundred dollars as a reasonable price for a pair of pants. So I would just embrace what Guy said around like the appeal and just jumping to your question. I think it's all about Instagram for the evolution you're making, because Gen X is there and Gen Y is there in droves. I wouldn't worry about TikTok yet. And I would find maybe 50 or 100ambassadors or more and just gift them product if you can afford to and see if you can 10x your Instagram following. Because the quality of the brand and the aesthetic is way underpenetrated on Instagram in terms of what I'm seeing of like, likes followership and engagement.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Right, Okay, I like that idea.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, Andy, I think that's exactly right. I mean, Bonobos was and you know, is a premium brand. Right. Like, you know that you're going to pay a little bit more for something and you're going to get more. I'm looking at your website and it is, I mean, first of all, now that I've dug digging into it a bit, your products are made in New York, they're made in the United States. You're using high quality fabrics. That is not clear from just. I mean, if you were just looking at this site, some of these dresses are like $225. Some people might think that's a lot. But you're not just making this in a giant factory in China. They're made here in the United States. I love the aesthetic. I love that retro. It looks almost like a, like a airline flight attendants, you know.

[Andy Dunn]

Yeah, it's like Flight of the Concords.

[Guy Raz]

It's like, it's like a jet age kind of look.

[Andy Dunn]

It's dope. Hey, it's a dope looking brand, Michelle. And it has so much potential as a lifestyle brand because of the way you named it Top Banana. You know, it's that, it's that woman who's like, you know, the alpha female who's having fun, looks good. And I think it, it has so much potential. If you can kind of cross the Rubicon to Gen Y feel. I'm excited for you.

[Michelle Cosentino]

I like the idea of embracing the, the price point. It is expensive because it is made in New York and the fabrics are really nice.

[Guy Raz]

And Michelle, what about, you know, in terms of resources, like, do you have some money or any money to spend, for example, on maybe help with a PR agency or a branding agency? Or an influencer marketing agency.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Yeah, that is definitely something I'm looking into. Originally, I went out and I went. I aimed a little high. I contacted Gina Morgan Riddle. Morgan Riddle is Taylor Fritz's girlfriend who sits on the sideline of every tennis match. And she just blew up, and she has one of my dresses. And I was like, oh, this is amazing. And then the next week, she was in the New York Times as like, the most influential woman in men's tennis. And I was like, ooh, that doesn't.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Michelle Cosentino]

So her price went straight up, like.

[Guy Raz]

To do one post.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Oh, yes. And so I think I aimed a little too high. I think I need to find influencers and marketers that are kind of a little more affordable because I'm a small brand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

You know, in this regard, I'm a. I'm an investor, angel investor in a brand called Caraway. It's pots and pans and kitchenware. And what. What he did that I thought. Thought was so smart is he actually built an army of something like 3,000 Instagram partners. It was just value exchange for free product. So I think the move is, don't pay people, send them product. It'll take some work to figure out who those folks are. I wanted to ask you a question. What about Pickle? What about Pickle? What about Padel?

[Michelle Cosentino]

So my first. My first line was all white because the requirements for the tennis, and I had so many people requesting color for pickle and paddle that I moved into colors. And I'm sort of changing the brand now to be like racket sports instead of just tennis apparel.

[Andy Dunn]

Pickle's on fire. I don't know if you've been playing, but there's so much growth in that category. I mean, tennis is cool, and I can tell it's an inspo. I love to play tennis, but I've jumped on the pickle wagon, and I feel like there's a lot of potential with that as well. On the note of Taylor's girlfriend.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

I would actually encourage you to think about whether it's her or someone else giving between 10 and 40% of the company to someone like that, because that's the difference between building a $50 million brand and a $5 million brand. And so there's not really any brand this day and age that gets big that isn't carried to market by someone like that without raising a ton of money and giving it to Mark Zuckerberg. So if you can find someone brand aligned, and it's probably someone who at some point, like, you send the product to and loves it.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Okay.

[Andy Dunn]

And. And you just give them a big chunk of the company to lean in with you. Because that can, that can be the thing that, you know, 10 to 100x is the value. And if I could go back and do Bonobos again, I wish I understood how much better it is to dilute your brand by giving the equity to someone like that than running Instagram ads.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Really?

[Andy Dunn]

Oh, 100%.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, Andy, I want to. And we'll just push back for a sec. I think that, that, that there is an argument to be made, but there's also a risk there. Right. That, that if that influencer or that brand AM goes south. Right. It's going to kill your brand too. Right. It could also be a problem. Not to say it's not worth taking that risk. It's just a risk worth considering. You mentioned that you want to keep this as a direct to consumer brand, but I wonder whether it might be worthwhile at least trying to get the product into some boutiques. I mean, we've done so many stories like this. Aviator Nation is a great example. Toms, Blake, Mycosky started selling them in boutiques in Venice. To me, there's an opportunity here in Westport, Connecticut. I mean, there's some great boutiques on Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. Or in Connecticut, I would look at places like that where people go, especially go on vacation in the summer. And I try to identify some cool boutiques where you could put these there on consignment. I don't know. Andy, what do you think?

[Andy Dunn]

Yeah, totally agree. I mean, I'll just share with you. Michelle. I spent 13 years building something that I think in retrospect is an impossible business model, which is D2C apparel. Like, I don't, I don't actually think it works.

[Guy Raz]

Don't say that.

[Andy Dunn]

I don't think it works. Like, the math doesn't work on it because it's too expensive to acquire. Acquire customers. Right. It's. It's. So it's a cartel that controls the digital highway. Right. It's Bezos and Zuckerberg and Apple. So I love the idea.

[Michelle Cosentino]

You're not wrong.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

Leveraging wholesale and celebrity and influencer. I mean, if. Just think about what we've done at Monica and Andy, my sister's brand last few years, we did a partnership with Paris Hilton and we launched Walmart. And now all of a sudden the business looks. Looks good. Whereas when it was a pure play, D2C, it was challenging. Now, now look, it's hard to get wholesale accounts going. They don't pay on time. It's a time intensive sell in. But I like the idea guy.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Yeah, I like that too. I mean, everything that you guys said about the wholesale to retail model I was avoiding initially because I was still building out this product. It has to be useful for. I wanted to learn as much as I could about the actual product. And all the things you said about chasing the money and all that. I knew. But I do think I'm at a phase right now where I could go to a trade show and sell to like the Four Seasons gift shops. And I think because the women I know, when I go on vacation, that's when I buy things, I'm like excited. I have time.

[Guy Raz]

You're a little freer with your money. Like you're in. You've had a few on vacation, right? Exactly.

[Andy Dunn]

Four Seasons gift shops is a great idea.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Okay.

[Andy Dunn]

That kind of an account because it also can scale. Right. The thing that's hard about boutiques is like it's good for the brand, but it can't scale Beyond n of 1 sometimes. Which is why sometimes distribution is cool. But if you have something like that where if it works, you can then go out to 50 doors, that's cool.

[Michelle Cosentino]

So that's what I'm looking at next. I'm looking at hotels who have resorts that are, that have tennis and grabbing them, trying to get them excited and pickleball.

[Guy Raz]

Pickleball, yeah, all that.

[Andy Dunn]

I mean, let's get out, let's get out of the. Just the tennis mindset.

[Michelle Cosentino]

I know it's bad racket.

[Andy Dunn]

Right? That's, it's going to help you because like, for example, I was just down in South Carolina with my family and you know, there were, there's 15 clay tennis courts. Right. Empty. And then there were 10 pickleball courts.

[Alex Supak]

Packed.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Packed.

[Andy Dunn]

Totally packed.

[Guy Raz]

Yep.

[Michelle Cosentino]

I agree. I'm on it. Rackets.

[Guy Raz]

Racket sports. Michelle Cosentino. The brand is called Top Banana. Thanks for calling and good luck.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Thank you very much, guys.

[Andy Dunn]

So impressed with what you've done. Bye. Bye.

[Guy Raz]

Congrats.

[Michelle Cosentino]

Thanks.

[Guy Raz]

How was that trip to South Carolina?

[Andy Dunn]

It was cool.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, Yeah. I was gonna say South Carolina, like Kiowa Island. Like again, you want to hit up these sort of tennis kind of golf and tennis kind of places, Right?

[Andy Dunn]

Yeah. That was the thing I thought was most interesting about her was she wasn't, she wasn't in a reality based relationship with who her customer was.

[Guy Raz]

Right.

[Andy Dunn]

Or at least at the beginning of our conversation. And I think it's so important to know who your customer is so you can just really sled at that $200 dress, right? This is, this is a discretionary purchase and that's a, that affluent customer is a great customer. So yeah, you know, going after it, I think she can build something big.

[Guy Raz]

Stay with us because after the break we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. Are you tired of paying for overpriced razors and grooming products? Dollar Shave Club has everything you need to not only get a quality shave, but an affordable one too. From razors and electric trimmers to pre and post shave care, including their cult favorite Shave Butter. They have a full lineup of personal care products for any man anywhere with any type of hair. But don't take my word for it, try for yourself. Dollar Shave Club products are now available everywhere, so you can order from their website, Amazon or get them at your favorite retailer near you. Alternatively, you can visit their site right now for 20% off orders of $20 or more and get your products delivered right to your door. Visit dollarshaveclub.com howibuiltthis and use promo code built for 20% off orders of $20 or more. And remember, whatever you shave, welcome to the club. You've heard of speed dating, but if you're the owner of a growing business, you may wonder, what if there was a feature like speed dating only for hiring? Some way you could meet multiple interested qualified candidates at once. Well good. There he is. It's zip intro from ZipRecruiter. You can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. And right now you can try Zip Intro for free at ziprecruiter.com Bilt Zip Intro helps you quickly assess great candidates for your job via back to back video calls. Simply choose a time and Zip Intro will find and schedule meetings with qualified candidates for you. Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for [e-mail] BILT Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com BILT Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. Creating really great retail experiences is tough, especially with multiple stores, teams of staff, fulfillment centers, separate workflows. It's a lot. But with Shopify point of sale, you can do it all without complexity. Shopify's point of sale system is a unified command center for your retail business. It brings together in store and online operations across a thousand locations. Endless aisle, ship to customer, buy online, pickup in store. All made simpler so customers can shop how they want and staff have the tools to close the sale every time. With Shopify pos you can keep shoppers coming back with personalized experiences and first party data that give marketing teams a competitive edge. Want more? Check [e-mail] bilt all lowercase and learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity. Shopify.combilt welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Andy Dunn, co founder of Bonobos and a new social app called Pie. Andy, what do you say? Should we take another call?

[Andy Dunn]

Let's do it. I can't wait.

[Guy Raz]

Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Andy Dunn from Bonobos. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

[Alex Supak]

Hey guys, how you doing? My name is Alex Supak. I'm from Glenview, Illinois which is just outside of Chicago. So. Hi Andy.

[Andy Dunn]

What's up? Alex?

[Alex Supak]

I'm the co founder of Broda Beverage Co. Which is an alcohol brand that uses real ingredients and high quality production methods focused on transparency. So we offer truly unique and fresh flavors while providing a better for you experience.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's talk about this. Thanks for calling, Alec. Tell me what is the beverage you make?

[Alex Supak]

Yeah, so our trojan horse into the market is the traditional lemon, honey and ginger vodka. It's a Polish alcohol and the way we make it is we zest the lemons, peel the ginger, infuse it into the vodka, filter it out, juice the lemons, add in a raw honey that we're getting from Michigan, blend it, age it, bottle it. So no preservatives, none of the weird stuff.

[Guy Raz]

And so tell me a little bit about how you where this idea came from. I'm assuming based on your last name, maybe there's like a family connection here.

[Alex Supak]

Yes. Yeah, my last name is very Polish. Both of my parents came from Poland and this is my uncle's recipe. And so his nickname was Broda, which means beard in Polish. That's the name of our company. It's because his wife and kids never saw him without a beard so everyone called him that. But yeah, he got the recipe from his father, from his father before him. And he taught my brother who is 12 years my senior. And then I kind of got messing around with it and I've always had a little bit of an entrepreneurial bug. And here we are a couple years later.

[Guy Raz]

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

[Alex Supak]

24.

[Guy Raz]

24. So you are. This. Is this your. I'm assuming this is your first company, right?

[Alex Supak]

Yes, sir. Yep.

[Guy Raz]

Congrats. And. And tell me a little bit about how you got off the ground.

[Andy Dunn]

There's.

[Alex Supak]

There's a lot of roadblocks with alcohol, but it started off kind of my sophomore, junior year of college. Just trying to figure out if this is a viable product for the market. Joined an incubator program at my college SMU in Dallas. Won a couple pitch competitions. That gave me some confidence. And then just kind of studying up, figuring out, you know, what licensing you need. Find a correct co packer, which took forever because no one wants to use real fruits and raw honey and they want the easiest way to make it. Definitely no aging processes because that takes up time and resources. So yeah, there was a steep learning curve and it took about two years before we could actually get onto shelves. So our co packer is local to Chicago. So they buy a vodka from. From a big guy and then they distill it one more time. But then they let us come in and do all the fruit processing ourselves. So me, my mom, my dad, my friend's girlfriend, everyone's coming in and we call it a lemon party. And yeah, just juice. Juice, a lot of stuff.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Give me a sense of where you guys are right now. You say you launched it about a year ago and this all direct to consumer. Are you selling in stores and if so, what are you. What kind of revenue are you looking at in your first year?

[Alex Supak]

We're mainly in stores, so at.

[Guy Raz]

In Chicago, the Chicago area.

[Alex Supak]

Chicago, yeah, that's where. That's where we're launching right now. So we're in stores like grocery chains, also mom and pop liquor stores. We're in a couple liquor chains as well, and then restaurants and bars because that kind of helps build up the brand name. We do have online sales to 44 states and our revenue is around 95k right now.

[Guy Raz]

95K the first year preorder. That's great. And tell us what your pain point is. What's your question for us?

[Alex Supak]

Yeah, so our question is, I'm not sure if you're familiar, but the alcohol industry is one of hidden ingredients. So we want to know how we can effectively educate consumers about this issue while positioning our product as Both a better for you transparent and more delicious alternative.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, I want to bring Andy in. I've got a lot of thoughts about that. Andy, I know you don't drink anymore. I still drink.

[Andy Dunn]

I want a drink now after hearing Alex talk about this.

[Guy Raz]

And I'm going to try this. So I will give you my feedback as somebody who does enjoy a drink. Andy, first to you, thoughts about Broda.

[Andy Dunn]

First. I love the brand identity. And while Guy was talking, I was looking at your Instagram and your site, the branding, the story. You're doing a pretty good job. I feel like you're kind of good at this, like building in public storytelling about the ingredients. Your. Your followerships are lower than I would guess. It's a. It's a nice looking grid. I'm curious, like, why do you need help with the storytelling? It looks like you're good at it.

[Alex Supak]

Yeah, I mean, it's because when I'm doing tastings, I do at least two to three tastings every weekend just to try to get it out there. And, you know, repeating the pitch over and over. Everyone seems to be shocked with the fact that, oh, there's an ingredient list on the back of this bottle because you're just not trained to look at it. And the problem is a lot of people are trying to be healthier during the week, but when it comes to the weekend, I call it informed unwinding, you know, trying to understand what's in your drink. But nobody knows all these hidden things because they're not required to share them. So that's kind of what I want to get at because obviously our flavor is different, but how do we also explain that the actual contents are different as well?

[Guy Raz]

Interesting, because I sort of. My instinctive reaction is to say I'm not convinced that people who are going for a drink are that worried about the health implications, even if they might be healthy and they might work out and they might go to the gym every day. There's all kinds of swirling, conflicting information about alcohol in general. It's been coming out over the last few years. To me, the idea of trying to make the case that this is a better option than another cocktail because the ingredients are healthier or cleaner or whatever words you use. To me, I'm not sure that's gonna be the best argument to make because I think at the end of the day, people are consuming based on what they like on the taste. And that, to me is your strongest argument.

[Alex Supak]

Right.

[Andy Dunn]

Can I give a counterpoint on that, Guy, please? Because I think actually if I Hear you, you make that argument like, here's the deal, the problem with vodka is it's so competitive.

[Guy Raz]

Very competitive.

[Andy Dunn]

Right? It's so competitive. And so if you're going to stand out, what if it is the case that for, you know, the Gen Z demo that Alec is in, because I don't think you're going to switch older people who are, you know, stuck on, you know, now Grey Goose is what absolute used to be for, you know, the grandfather generation.

[Guy Raz]

Yes, yes.

[Andy Dunn]

Given that it's a generation that is more plant based and more sober, curious and all that for the component of that group that wants to go out and have some vodka on a Friday night or have a couple of nice cocktails with dinner, maybe this is a differentiator. So maybe part of the way to break through the noise here is to go on this really difficult journey of getting the consumer who is predisposed to care about ingredients to care about ingredients in this category, which I agree with you guys, a category where normally, hey, you're putting ETHOH poison in your body. Who cares what else is going into it? Well, maybe, maybe that can evolve. I don't know. Alec, does that resonate with you or how are you thinking about it?

[Alex Supak]

And I'd like to say that I think both of you guys are right in a certain way. So the reason that we, we don't put the ingredient label on the front like RXBar for example, is because we still want to have that fun, you know, sexiness within an alcohol brand. It's more of like to Guy's point, it's not the most important. Obviously flavor is most important, but what's really part of our backbone is the ingredients. And I've talked to many people that when they hear, oh, raw honey, like, wow, like, you know, if I don't drink often, but if I do, like I would love to have that or it's just kind of, we're trying to make them ask the question themselves. Like, do you actually want to know what it is that you are drinking?

[Andy Dunn]

So guys, I'm all in on this. I'm all in on the ingredients, you know. So for example, I was just looking up here on Cloud AI, what's raw honey good for? It's soothing for coughs. What's ginger good for? It's good for digestion in the stomach. Maybe it's not on the packaging, but I would encourage you that maybe it is on the front. I don't think if you, if you're going to be known for something, be Known for it. Be loud and proud. Put it everywhere. Communicate those benefits. I don't know. I like. I think it's kind of fun.

[Guy Raz]

You know, I just had a thought here, and this is like a wild kind of just throwing spaghetti at the wall here, but it might actually stick. Because you mentioned this idea, Andy, that lemon and ginger is great for digestion and honey for the throat and, like, you know. And so what if you took a risk here and try to think of your competitors not as the cocktail that people are going to have at the bar, but as, like, Jagermeister or Fernee, you know, one of these sort of de Justifs. Right. And you kind of create a Broda shot culture. Like, do a shot of Broda and you go. And maybe you're doing this already, but you. You go to the bar and you pour shots. You're like, you know, prost. What do they say in Polish?

[Alex Supak]

Nozdrovia.

[Guy Raz]

Nozdrovia, right. And you boom. And you shoot that at the bar, and everyone's going, nostrovia.

[Alex Supak]

Totally. And it means for your health in Polish. The one thing is that with. With alcohol, you have to be very careful with, you know, saying healthy versus. That's why we say better for you. Because at the end of the day, don't say it.

[Guy Raz]

Don't put on the label. You could just say it when you're at the bar.

[Alex Supak]

Yeah, yeah. And one of our best accounts is actually a bar in Lincoln park that does now is doing three dollar shots. It used to be seven, but it's been doing so well that they're. They're, you know, trying. They're making it their special. So. And in Polish culture, that is also how you drink it. You don't mix it. You don't dilute it. It's.

[Andy Dunn]

Oh, this is amazing. There's a million alcohols to compete with, but in the shot culture, there's like five.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, right, right. That's what you want to do. Broda shots.

[Alex Supak]

Okay. I guess the Polish people haven't had it wrong since the 16th century.

[Guy Raz]

No, no.

[Andy Dunn]

And that's a part of the story which is so cool.

[Guy Raz]

And gotta be careful. Obviously, this is a heavily regulated industry.

[Alex Supak]

Very much so.

[Guy Raz]

And all kinds of surgeon general's warnings coming out about alcohol in recent. But I think that, look, human beings have been fermenting and distilling grains and fruits for thousands of years and consuming it. And it is part of human behavior in general, most parts of the world. And so I think that focusing on the traditional side of it how it's consumed. It's very much about community. It's very much about being together. And you're selling an experience, you're not selling a product. That's what I think you gotta focus on.

[Alex Supak]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

100%.

[Guy Raz]

Alec Nastrovia, Broda Beverage Company. Congrats, man. Good luck.

[Alex Supak]

Thanks so much. I appreciate it, guys. Nice to meet you.

[Andy Dunn]

Great to meet you. Keep going.

[Guy Raz]

I'm sorry. I know that it's very wise that you gave up booze. And I will say I have massively reduced my consumption to maybe like a glass of wine a week now. Really? And I sleep much better.

[Andy Dunn]

And now maybe Broda shots.

[Guy Raz]

I know Broda shot at night, but Andy, you know, and I don't. Are you 50? You're not 50 yet, right?

[Andy Dunn]

46.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. So once you're. I just turned 50, and even 46, at that point, your body is just like, nah, I cannot do these things.

[Andy Dunn]

Oh, it's different. No, my doctors told me I'm gonna die in five different ways. You know, you have that appointment and it's like, oh, wow, I'm not going to live forever. How do I prolong?

[Guy Raz]

The beauty is you can turn it all around your 40. So if you are under 45 and you're listening, you can abuse your body. But then it just has to end. It must end.

[Andy Dunn]

It must. All good things come to an end.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. This episode is sponsored by Canva. If you make decks at work, you should make the switch to Canva Presentations. Canva presentations might be the most visually impressive presentations you'll ever use. Start with a stunning template, drag and drop images, graphics, charts and data visualizations from Canva's massive media library. Add animations plus interactive polls and quizzes to really set your slides apart. Built in AI also lets you generate slides and text in seconds from a prompt. And you can share your Canva presentations with anyone and instantly collaborate in real time. Canva is used by 95% of Fortune 500 companies. Whether you work at a small or big company, in a team of two or two thousand, Canva empowers workplaces everywhere to create captivating presentations, save time and be more productive together. You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your audience will too. Love your work with canva [e-mail] One of the hardest parts about B2B marketing is reaching the right audience. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1,1 billion professionals. And that's where it stands apart from the other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue, all the professionals you need to reach in one place. Stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. So you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com builtthis that's LinkedIn.com built this. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Andy Dunn. So, Andy, let's, let's bring on our next caller.

[Andy Dunn]

Let's dive in.

[Guy Raz]

Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Andy Dunn, co founder of Bonobos. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Sabrina Nass]

Hey. Hey, Andy. My name is Sabrina Nass. I'm the founder of House of Biscotti, based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. We're a biscotti company that's obsessed with reinventing the biscotti. So no more sad looking biscottis in glass jars near the counter that look untouched and unloved. At House Biscotti, we're all about fun flavors, fun packaging, and a very tasty biscotti to pair with your morning coffee.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. Sabrina, welcome to the show. Thank you. House of Biscotti. Okay, so it's a great idea. Tell me how this came about. How are you a, are you a baker? Did you have a, Is this your, did you have a business before? Tell me about it.

[Sabrina Nass]

No, no, no, no. None of the above. My background is actually in tech. I used to write code for a living. Now I'm an engineering leader focusing on the AI space. And the reason why that's so relevant to this story is because during the pandemic, I desperately just wanted to do something in between meetings. And I realized walking to get a cup of coffee was a great new habit. Like, fantastic new habitual act, but very expensive. Quite expensive indeed. Especially if you purchase a croissant or a Danish. Which then led me to the decision that maybe a croissant every day is not the healthiest. And this is where I decided it's time to reinvent the biscotti, it's the perfect treat. You can dunk it, you can save it for later, it won't go stale like a croissant. And then to point back to my tech experiences, I've worked on a lot of great engineering teams that included studying how customers engage with their favorite products. And what I learned from those experiences is that people love habits. People love romanticizing those habits. And what better habit to elevate than pairing your morning coffee with a biscotti? Right?

[Guy Raz]

Okay. And so this is, is this your full time job now?

[Sabrina Nass]

No, no.

[Guy Raz]

You're still a coder, you're still doing this work. Okay. This is your side hustle.

[Sabrina Nass]

Yes, I enjoy health insurance. Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so, so, and, and tell me how. So are you making this in like a commercial kitchen space that you're renting space out? And, and so you're making them all yourself?

[Sabrina Nass]

Yep, yep. Scotty's are the weekend. Baking, fulfilling manufacturing, sending invoices, cold calling, all of that good stuff.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. And where are you selling right now?

[Sabrina Nass]

So we're available in over 20 distinct stores and coffee shops across the U.S. wow. We've definitely not scaled to a big box retailer as you could assume. I would like to make like a few key decisions before approaching that route. And there are reorders, which is another good signal. But this might be the perfect segue to my question.

[Guy Raz]

Yes, please, please ask your question.

[Sabrina Nass]

Okay, super. What I'd like your all's help with is figuring out first, discovery of eatbuscotti.com which is the website, and then second, how in the world, once the customer's actually on the website, how do I increase sales? My sales on the website are pennies.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Okay. Andy Dunn, come on in.

[Andy Dunn]

Here's a hot take, Sabrina. And this is so cool because it's a category everyone knows, but no one owns. Which is so intriguing.

[Guy Raz]

Right?

[Andy Dunn]

Like you don't usually have a category.

[Guy Raz]

Where there's just no who owns Biscotti?

[Andy Dunn]

No one owns Biscotti. That's going to be Sabrina.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

So here's my hot take. You can't increase sales on the website and you shouldn't try. Okay, I'm being a little bit cheeky because I think over time you can. What I would probably do is just focus on subscription because the unit economics of non subscription, I mean by the way, no one's gonna subscribe. But given that you're talking about it as a habit, I think what you should aim for is subscription. By the way, later, if the company's really Big. It's gonna be an Amazon subscription, right? Or in a Walmart subscription. But I would put all my energy into wholesale if I were you. Okay, let's go get Whole Foods. What's the SKU that Whole Foods wants? That's maybe exclusive? Let's get Walmart, let's get Amazon, let's get Albertsons, let's get Target, let's go after all of that and most importantly, let's get you working on this full time. Because we can't build a big brand if you're not full time. So what would it take for you to be able to go all in on this? Is that, is that something you want to do? And what would it take to do that? What kind of revenue or what would the step be?

[Sabrina Nass]

Yeah, that's a good question. It is something I'd want to pivot towards full time. The milestone that I wanted to hit this year was, and this is very helpful feedback thus far, the milestone I wanted to hit was sales on websites. So that when I have my pitch deck or when I go to to get external funding or investors, I have a beautiful slide that says, like, I was able to unlock some minimal traction online. That's been like my focus this year because I put so much focus on just building and bootstrapping and launching last year.

[Guy Raz]

Is there a number that you would need to hit before you would? Because I'm assuming that you probably have. I mean, given your credentials and what you do, you're probably paid well. You probably have a good benefits package. Like that's hard to leave.

[Sabrina Nass]

It is.

[Andy Dunn]

Do you have savings?

[Sabrina Nass]

I do have a lot. I am so grateful for making the decision as a 19 year old to go the tech route. So I do have savings. I guess I'm thinking a lot because a lot of. I'm kind of an intrapreneur as well at work. Like, I do pitch some of the harder products to ship and I always think of the pitch deck and I'm. The thing that's been blocking in my mind is when I go into those meetings to pitch or even a cold call email, I just feel like they're gonna ask about online sales. And if I say it's just been like my parents.

[Andy Dunn]

Oh, no, no, just say you. No. Say you don't disclose.

[Sabrina Nass]

Oh, I don't disclose.

[Andy Dunn]

Say we've got a lot of momentum. We don't disclose our numbers.

[Sabrina Nass]

Okay.

[Guy Raz]

Love that. That means I'm not doing any sales. I hear that all the time. Thank you, Andy.

[Andy Dunn]

Don't disclose. But what I would do is do enough that it's growing. So you could say we're growing 20%. We don't disclose numbers but we're growing 22% month on month. One thing you should do is like look at pricing a little bit because price matters online and a lot of times entrepreneurs price to the margin rather than the market because they say we need this margin. But sometimes that doesn't matter if the market doesn't emerge. So you need a price that's compelling even if you take it on the chin on the margin in the near term. I see when you build a lot of demand, you'll get that back. So it's okay if you're unit economic negative or break even now to establish the market. And you will need to win on price later. I don't care what else your story is. You will need to win on price to be compelling in the grocery channel.

[Sabrina Nass]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

No one's going to be like, oh, it's premium Biscotti. I'll pay 80% more.

[Sabrina Nass]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

You've got to be like head to head. In fact, I would want you to be the least expensive biscotti on the market with the best brand. If you think about why, why did something like Warby Parker work or Harry's work, it's because they price disrupted Luxottica and Gillette respectively. So it's this weird thing where you've got to be cooler and better and cheaper if you want to break through and build something that's not just a niche brand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

And as I thought, you've got a price problem. So you've got. I'm just checking your website. It's 14 bucks for 8.25 ounces.

[Sabrina Nass]

It's a bit expensive.

[Andy Dunn]

And La Dolce Vita classic Italian almond biscotti with a kind of a cool container. Although my wife would point out it's still, you know, single use plastics is 40 ounces.

[Sabrina Nass]

Yeah.

[Andy Dunn]

For 1382. So I think you've got to dream bigger on what this would look like at scale and be willing, you know, do all the work to figure out.

[Sabrina Nass]

Take it to the chin.

[Andy Dunn]

Yeah. Big time.

[Sabrina Nass]

Yep. No, I wrote down that sentence least expensive biscotti with the best brand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I would also, and I'm sure you know about this, Sabrina. I would look at that. You know that famous biscotti you get from. They sell it all over Italy. It's called Antonio Matt or Matei. It has the. It's like this. It looks almost like a bag of Coffee, but because it's so. It's like, perfectly stacked with biscotti. It's like it might even be cheaper than the packaging you're using now.

[Andy Dunn]

And I like that guy. Like the packaging not being plastic. So there might be some wiggle room in there to win on packaging and product. Anyways, this is cool.

[Sabrina Nass]

Yeah, that's really helpful. So ditch. Ditch E Commerce. Great.

[Guy Raz]

Ditch E Commerce. Yes.

[Andy Dunn]

Ditch it. It's stupid. No one wants to invest in it either. All the money is going into profitable wholesale led brands now, not into D2C brands. So you'll raise more capital on better terms if you want to over time, if you get the Omni kind of wholesale lead equation working, especially in cpg.

[Sabrina Nass]

Yes. This is really helpful.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you so much, Sabrina. Thank you for calling in House of Biscotti. Good luck. We're gonna. We'll. We're cheering you on.

[Andy Dunn]

Quit your job, resign tomorrow.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, thanks. That's advice you're gonna give? I'm not gonna give a tech mogul that advice. She's like a coder.

[Andy Dunn]

She'll be fine.

[Guy Raz]

She's earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

[Andy Dunn]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Her next job, she should keep it for now. Keep the job for now. Keep one foot in House of Biscotti. And then over time, you know, when the. You know, when, like, the water level on that goes up and on the other side starts to go down and you jump, you jump ship.

[Andy Dunn]

All right. Half built House of Biscotti. I can get behind that.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Andy, I mean, hopefully we didn't just, like, destroy a bunch of businesses today.

[Andy Dunn]

I think we did okay. I mean, it's so fun seeing these folks. They actually, all these have interesting potential.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Well, I think that if in the end they make it, hopefully they'll remember this moment. Andy, before I let you go now, knowing what you know about business now and having all this experience, if you could go back and give yourself advice, not necessarily around the mental health challenges, but just about, like, you know, operational advice or decision making advice, what do you think would have been helpful for you in the early days that you wish you kind of knew?

[Andy Dunn]

Yeah, I think it is that. Just to worry a lot less about what other people think. I think for a long time I wanted to be liked so badly that I was not able to make the tough organizational decisions fast enough that I needed to make. Right. Like Hipponobos, we didn't do a layoff until our 12th year. The truth is, capitalism at times requires layoffs. It just does. You hire more People in good times, things change. You gotta be surgical and the company emerges better for it. So I feel so free to worry less because I know these things pass. I think the other thing that goes side by side with that is just telling people the truth earlier. So in a non defensive way, saying things like, gosh, I got that work and it just wasn't good. Yeah, like that was bad work production and just saying what I think without being mean, without ad hominem attacks, which some entrepreneurs get into. It takes a lot of work and focus to say, I'm just going to do what's right for the company. I'm going to say what's on my mind and gosh, that is saving me a lot of cycles. Compared to Bonobos. We did a lot of spin. For me, wanting for those characteristics of candor and courage.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Andy Dunn, co founder of Bonobos and also Pie, an app that helps users find and organize live social events and develop new friendships. Andy, thanks so much for joining us.

[Andy Dunn]

Thanks for having me, guy.

[Guy Raz]

And by the way, if you haven't heard Andy's original how I built this episode about how he built bonobos, you've got to go back and give it a listen. It's a great episode. We'll put a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview. How were you able to kind of stay optimistic? I mean, were you just looking at projections and saying, this is gonna be fine, stay optimistic?

[Andy Dunn]

What makes you think that I was optimistic? I was defiant in the face of a terrifying reality. Companies don't die because the companies fail. They die because the entrepreneur gives up. And that was the approach. Just keep the lights on, keep growing. And that's what we did.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Catherine Cipher, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Casey Herman, J.C. howard, Iman Maani, Chris Massini, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.