Advice Line with Angie Hicks of Angi

Summary

Podcast Summary: How I Built This with Guy Raz
Episode: Advice Line with Angie Hicks of Angi
Release Date: October 31, 2024

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Overview

In this episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz reconnects with Angie Hicks, the co-founder and Chief Customer Officer of Angie (formerly Angie's List). The episode delves into Angie Hicks' journey of transforming a local contractor referral service into a national brand, her current role in fostering customer relationships, and her insights on scaling a business through strategic partnerships and thoughtful branding. Additionally, the episode features live advice segments where Angie and Guy Raz assist entrepreneurs with their business challenges.

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Reconnecting with Angie Hicks

00:04:14 - 00:05:40

Guy Raz welcomes back Angie Hicks, reflecting on her initial appearance on the show in 2016. Angie shares updates on her role as Chief Customer Officer, emphasizing her passion for adding a human touch to a tech-driven company. She explains initiatives like "office hours" for both employees and customers, fostering direct communication and relationship-building.

Notable Quote:
At 00:05:15, Angie Hicks states, "There are no problems that I'm not willing to tackle directly."

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Rebranding from Angie's List to Angie

00:05:46 - 00:08:57

The conversation shifts to the strategic decision to rebrand Angie's List to Angie. Angie explains that the term "List" had become outdated as the company evolved beyond merely listing contractors to offering comprehensive home improvement solutions. The rebrand aimed to modernize the brand, simplify marketing efforts, and unify various merged entities under a single, streamlined identity.

Notable Quote:
At 00:07:56, Angie Hicks remarks, "We wanted to simplify and streamline our brand to better represent the full range of services we offer."

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First Caller: Paige McReynolds of McRae Motocross

00:08:57 - 00:22:56

Caller Introduction:
Paige McReynolds, co-founder and CEO of McRae Motocross, seeks advice on approaching investors. Her company designs and manufactures women's dirt bike gear, aiming to create a welcoming community in a male-dominated industry.

Discussion Points:

1. Understanding the Market:

   • Paige discusses the niche of women's motocross apparel and the challenges of breaking into a predominantly male market.

2. Funding and Growth:

   • Currently self-funded, Paige inquires about the right timing and milestones for seeking investor funding.

3. Community and Branding:

   • Angie advises leveraging the founder's passion and storytelling in attracting investors, emphasizing the importance of authentic relationships.

4. Scaling Beyond the Niche:

   • Guy Raz suggests expanding the brand's scope beyond motocross to include other women's sports to ensure sustainability and growth.

Notable Quotes:
At 00:13:20, Guy Raz advises, "Think in a much bigger way. Even if motocross is the core, consider expanding to other sports."

At 00:17:45, Angie Hicks adds, "Finding the right fit with that investor is crucial, especially an early investor who will have significant influence over the business."

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Second Caller: Diana O'Connor of Weston Table

00:27:07 - 00:37:28

Caller Introduction:
Diana O'Connor, founder and CEO of Weston Table, introduces her Boston-based e-commerce platform focused on home goods and tabletop entertaining products. Having launched in 2020 after raising five children, Diana seeks advice on balancing creative vision with business operations and the potential need to bring in investors.

Discussion Points:

1. Balancing Creativity and Operations:

   • Diana expresses the challenge of managing both creative and administrative tasks, seeking ways to focus on her strengths.

2. Investment and Control:

   • She contemplates whether bringing in investors is necessary for scaling her business and fears potential loss of control.

3. Scaling Strategies:

   • Angie recommends incremental fundraising and finding partners who align with the brand's vision, citing examples of successful partnerships like Cava.

4. Delegation and Leadership:

   • Angie emphasizes the importance of delegating tasks to allow founders to concentrate on their passions, suggesting the recruitment of a CEO or COO to manage operations.

Notable Quotes:
At 00:31:24, Angie Hicks advises, "Finding people that can take some of those tasks off your plate allows you to do more valuable things for the organization."

At 00:35:21, Angie suggests, "Consider looking for a COO who can work their way into the business and potentially take on the CEO role in the future."

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Third Caller: Keisha from Bridge the Gap Spanish

00:41:47 - 00:53:32

Caller Introduction:
Keisha from Kansas City calls in representing Bridge the Gap Spanish, an online platform helping adults learn Spanish through matched native speakers and tailored coaching.

Discussion Points:

1. Business Model and Growth:

   • Keisha outlines her month-to-month subscription model and her recent growth from five to 28 clients, primarily acquired through Instagram.

2. Differentiation in a Competitive Market:

   • She differentiates her service by emphasizing personalized coaching and bespoke matching with native speakers, aiming to enhance learners' confidence in speaking Spanish.

3. Prioritizing During Growth:

   • Keisha seeks advice on how to prioritize tasks amidst rapid growth and managing multiple moving parts.

4. Marketing and Customer Acquisition:

   • Angie recommends maintaining successful marketing channels while experimenting with new ones to ensure sustainable growth without over-reliance on a single platform.

Notable Quotes:
At 00:43:41, Angie Hicks notes, "Having a handful of marketing vehicles that work well ensures you’re not caught flat-footed when trends change."

At 00:48:23, Angie highlights, "Understanding the lifetime value of your customers is crucial in determining how much to invest in customer acquisition."

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Final Insights and Reflections

00:54:36 - 00:58:07

As the episode wraps up, Angie Hicks shares her reflections on entrepreneurship, emphasizing the importance of being open to learning, not over-stressing decisions, and maintaining a balanced perspective. She encourages founders to embrace their journeys, learn from mistakes, and focus on what truly matters for their business's growth and sustainability.

Notable Quote:
At 00:55:18, Angie Hicks advises, "Don't make decisions so heavy; we're not running the ER. Make the decision, move on, and learn from it."

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Conclusion

This episode of How I Built This provides invaluable insights into scaling a business thoughtfully, maintaining brand integrity, and fostering meaningful relationships with both customers and investors. Angie Hicks' experiences and advice offer a roadmap for entrepreneurs navigating the complexities of growth, funding, and market positioning.

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Note:
For full details and additional insights, listeners are encouraged to tune into the episode on the Wondery App or their preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

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Be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. There's more to imagine when you listen. I've recently been listening to Table for Two by Amor Toles, an incredible collection of shorts, stories and a novella that takes us back to a character from his book Rules of Civility. And as an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.combilt or text built to 500500 that's audible.combilt or text Built to 500500 to try audible free for 30 days audible.com built Ah.

[Angie Hicks]

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[Guy Raz]

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Yep.

[Angie Hicks]

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[Paige McReynolds]

Mmm.

[Diana O'Connor]

Save the best for last.

[Angie Hicks]

Thanks to Amex Platinum, the last day vacation brings yet another experience. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] with Amex.

[Guy Raz]

This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform featuring email, sms reviews and more this Black Friday Cyber Monday. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at K L A v I y o.com bfcm.

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help help me try to help you.

And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call. And you just might be the next.

Guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298.

Send us a 1 minute message that.

Tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo@hibtid wondery.com and make sure to tell.

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And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.

It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs.

You can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it.

Joining me this week is Angie Hicks.

Co founder of Angie, formerly known as Angie's List. Angie, welcome back to the show.

[Angie Hicks]

Oh, it's great to be here.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so you were one of our first guests on How I Built this way back in 2016, and it was a great episode. Back then you told the story of how you, you built Angie's List, this, this database where you could find reliable contractors and handymen in, you know, in your local area. And of course, if you guys have not heard that story, check it out.

We'll put a link in the podcast.

Description so you can find it. But Basically, back in 1995, Angie was in her early 20s. She was going door to door in Columbus, Ohio to up for memberships to the list. And then people would call in and then Angie would answer the phone herself and then refer them to like, reputable plumbers and roofers, you know, whatever service provider they needed.

And so that's how it became known as Angie's List.

Because you were Angie, they were calling Angie.

[Angie Hicks]

That's right. It's one of those inconsequential decisions. We only had a few members at the time. And it was like when we decided to name it Angie's List, I was like, well, we're just in Columbus, what does it matter? And then down the road, it turns into something much bigger.

[Guy Raz]

And of course I know that the Company is now known as just Angie. And you are Angie's chief customer Officer. That's right.

And so before we bring in our.

Caller today, I just want to start by asking you a couple of questions about what you've been up to lately. Because we haven't reconnected in a while. Can you fill us in on, you know, on what your work looks like today? As the head of sort of chief.

[Angie Hicks]

Customer Officer, I actually love what I do as a chief customer officer. It's a lot of fun and I really try to bring a human touch to a tech company. I think all too often we live in a world where we can't actually talk to a human being. No, a bot, I think. Exactly. I'm like, I think a well placed conversation building relationships can add a ton of value. So several years ago I had started doing office hours for our team when our team got too big that I didn't know everybody. And I'm an introvert and I'm not one that's going to go out and say, hey, what are you? How are things going? What are you working on? Et cetera. So I set up office hours for employees and they could come talk about whatever they wanted. It was 15 minutes. Quite honestly, I got more out of it than they did. And I think it was an important cultural shift. So about a year and a half ago, I decided to open that up to our customers. So now any pro in the network can sign up to chat and we'll do a zoom call and talk about whatever they want to talk about.

[Guy Raz]

And these are providers.

The pros are the providers.

[Angie Hicks]

That's right. So plumbers, electricians, all across the country.

[Guy Raz]

Anybody can sign up to talk to anybody.

[Angie Hicks]

Anybody.

[Guy Raz]

To Angie, to me.

[Angie Hicks]

Exactly. So if you think about what that does culturally to the organization, having accessibility and being able to do that, probably just the opportunity brings more value than the conversations themselves because they always know they can have an idea for the business. Tell me directly. Having a problem? Tell me directly. I will help you. And it also helps encourage the team to solve things throughout the organization as well. And there's not any problem that I'm not willing to tackle directly.

[Guy Raz]

Angie, tell me about the name change from Angie's list to Angie. What changed about the business to kind of warrant that rebrand?

[Angie Hicks]

Absolutely. So and it was actually something I had thought about even years earlier than that. It was becoming a situation where we felt like list probably dated us. We did more than just a list of contractors. We did more than just give you a name. We would actually help you get scheduled and get connected and, you know. Yeah. Take you much further in the process. So we're like, how do we think about modernizing it and giving it a fresh name? And so, you know, we took the same, you know, we took approach that many brands take in kind of shortening their names. Lots of brands over, you know, kind of over time end up shortening their names. So we went with Angie and, you know, we dropped the E to make it unique. And we had brought together, you know, a couple of different brands. We had merged with a home advisor and there was, you know, kind of shifting a brand at, you know, was 25 years old at the time is risky, but it's, it's going to allow us to be much more simplified, much more streamlined and put our marketing dollars behind a single brand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. All right, Angie, why don't we take the first call? Please introduce yourself, tell us your name, tell us where you're calling from, a little bit about your business.

Hi.

[Paige McReynolds]

Thank you so much for having me. My name is Paige McReynolds. I'm co founder and CEO of McRae Motocross along with my sister Kelly. We're based out of Southern California. We design and manufacture women's dirt bike gear with a mission to address a significant gap in a male dominated industry and hopefully create a community where women actually feel welcomed in this industry and take some of that intimidation factor away.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

Okay.

Well, welcome to the show, Paige.

Thank you for calling in. First of all, dirt bike, we're talking about motocross, like those, those motorcycles that you'd like see people leaping and dirt and jumping and that. That's what you're talking about?

[Paige McReynolds]

Yeah, yeah. We don't do so much of the jumping and leaping. I, we try, we get, you know, we try to do a little, a little air here and there. But our biggest thing is there's, there's also a world where people just go out and ride recreationally. And so our target market is, is those women who, they're not the pro racers. They're not trying to get sponsored. And my sister and I are here to say, hey, that's okay. You can still ride. You can still be a part of the community. There is space for you, and there are other women like you who are in the exact same space.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so what's your question that you.

Brought for us today?

[Paige McReynolds]

Is there an ideal time or a certain milestone that you have to hit or that you should hit before you go looking or talking to investors?

[Guy Raz]

All right, first of all. Tell me about women's motocross because, I mean, it sounds like there's a community there, but probably not as well known as, you know, the male writers.

[Paige McReynolds]

Definitely not as well known. I think there, you know, there are definitely women who. Someone like Vicki golden who is kind of the. What's the right word?

[Angie Hicks]

She.

[Guy Raz]

Caitlin Clark or the.

[Paige McReynolds]

Yes, exactly.

[Guy Raz]

Billie Jean King.

[Paige McReynolds]

Yeah, exactly. Everyone looks up to her. She represents women in the industry really well. And I think there's kind of just been this movement over the past few years of giving women more space and more of a voice. And we're starting to see a lot more of that through other brands as well. And it's super exciting just to have that opportunity and to be a part of that movement.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. All right, so you're building up, if.

I'm not mistaken, what sounds like a.

Lifestyle brand inspired by motocross, but apparel for women.

[Paige McReynolds]

Yes, specifically what started the whole company and the idea was gear. So I had ripped my jersey. We were looking for a new jersey and couldn't find anything that we liked. And it was all, you know, the men's section would have 20 plus options and the women's section would have two or three and they were all black and pink. And I was so frustrated. I couldn't understand why there wasn't more for women. And that day I was bored at work. I was in a meeting and I started sketching my dream jersey, what it would look like and, you know, something that you would see on a Nordstrom rack or something that you'd see in Target, you know, those kind of prints and patterns. I sketched it, I looked at my sister and I said we would wear this.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Paige McReynolds]

And so our main focus is the gear for women of all ages. So when you know a girl who's 4 or 5 years old sees a dirt bike jersey that has a unicorn on it or stars or flowers, she is immediately thinking, that's for me. That is made for me so I can participate in this sport. As opposed to wearing her brother's hand me downs or something from the boys section. And so creating cute styles that allows women to embrace their femininity, to show up authentically. Especially in an industry where a lot of the designs and just a lot of the culture is very masculine.

[Guy Raz]

Paige, where are you? How are you funding your business right now?

[Paige McReynolds]

So up until this point, we have completely self funded the business. I also have a full time job. I drained my 401k and my sister has a job as well. We've Gotten a little help from family and friends. But that's why. That's why I'm here today, is to talk about the big next step, which is investors.

[Guy Raz]

All right, before we answer your question, I want to bring in Angie Hicks. Angie, I'm sure you've got lots of questions for Paige, so let her rip.

[Angie Hicks]

So how are you telling your story externally? I think that's like a bit of your secret sauce is just kind of your passion around this topic. So would love to hear how you are leveraging that in building the business.

[Paige McReynolds]

Yeah, absolutely. Social media has been huge for us. It also is very scary in the beginning because my sister and I are not what we don't consider ourselves. Social media people air quotes around that. But so instead of leaning into the trends that you see on TikTok, we just decided, let's film us. Let's film our lives and who we are, because this is ultimately, again, it's a lifestyle brand, and that's what we're basing this on. So telling our own story through those types of things and going to events. We go to a lot of events, races, trade shows. And that, to us, is the biggest way that we can be face to face with customers, explain our brand and our story, show them what. What we're doing and what we want to do. But then also kind of, you know, the proof is in the pudding. Like, we're. We're also out there doing it. And so it's not just that we're talking the talk, like, we're also walking the walk, which I think is crucial in today's day and age. People crave authenticity, and they want. They want realness.

[Angie Hicks]

They absolutely do. And I think, you know, some of that same storytelling and kind of capturing your founder passion will be important in your investor search, too, because, you know, when it comes down, you're looking for someone to invest in you, that believes in you. And so kind of getting them to kind of buy into that story will be really important.

[Guy Raz]

Paige, I want to ask you about.

Where you are right now.

You started this in 2021, and I know I'm looking at your site, and it's apparel, right? So sweatshirts and crop tops and jerseys inspired by dirt biking. Can you give us a sense of sort of roughly what you're doing in revenue right now? Have you cracked 50,000, 100,000 in sales?

[Paige McReynolds]

We have not, but our sales are 50% up from last year, and last year was 30% up from the year before. So we're continuously seeing growth, which is extremely Promising to us. And I think we're in this place where it's the chicken or the egg. So we've received a few opportunities to expand into retail locations, but we don't have the funding, the product and the capital to help us get there. And so, you know, and that's where we're trying to figure out like people want to see you've hit, you know, X amount of dollars in revenue and we're like, well we can get there. We just need, we need the product to help us get in those stores.

[Angie Hicks]

It is, it is a bit tricky, you know, and I know that you said that you had already started raised some money through family and friends. I am all about of being a bit incremental in fundraising, right? Like raise some kind of prove, raise some more, improve. So you kind of turn fundraising into a journey versus kind of a one off big event. So then it kind of leads me to are there angel investor opportunities so maybe kind of expand beyond those family and friends to potentially an angel investor, someone, you know, dirt biking enthusiast or someone who likes to invest in women's, you know, kind of startups or things like that. I think there's a couple of paths that you could take there that maybe because like how much money are you looking to raise right now? Like what'll, what will get you into that first retail store?

[Paige McReynolds]

It's not small to us, but 50 to 100,000, which I think is a, in the grand scheme of investing, I think is a on the smaller side.

[Angie Hicks]

Right. That's why I'm thinking kind of an angel investor opportunity. You might even be able to find a couple of people that are willing to be like, hey, I like your idea. I could write, you know, I could write a check for that amount and then you can kind of prove out from there. But I think, you know, the real key, and I'm sure Guy has heard this, you know, in all of his conversations as well, is, you know, it's making sure that you get the right fit with that investor, especially an early investor because they're going to have a lot of influence over the business. So you want to, you want to be picky. I know that sounds kind of counterintuitive. You're like, I just need the money. But you're like, you got to balance needing the money with being picky to make sure that you're getting the right.

[Paige McReynolds]

Partner that aligns so much with my sister and I, we are so protective of our brand because it is so different than what exists. And I think that's why we've taken a little bit of a slower grow approach over the years. People have said, well, why don't you pay influencers and why don't you do this? And we said, well, we only want to do something if it feels right and if it matches our brand to a T. And so the same with investors. You know, listening to the How I Built this podcast and you hear some people's stories of investment partnerships going wrong. And we are terrified that we're going to partner with the wrong person and it's just going to tank our business.

[Guy Raz]

I have two thoughts for you, Paige.

The first is I'm assuming that probably a number of the women in motocross are already sponsored by the Red Bulls of the world. But we did a story on on Shoes a couple months ago, and they grew that brand, but eventually they partnered with Roger Federer and that took that.

Brand into the stratosphere.

It's really the first shoe brand to.

Challenge the dominance of Nike and Adidas, certainly with running.

So there's a world where you bring in a rider to be a partner, an equity partner.

The second thing I would say, and.

This is a little tougher, but I'm going to give you some feedback that I hope will be helpful. And it's a little bit tough love here, which is female motocross as a market is too narrow ultimately. And I'm going to. I want you to listen to our episode that we did on Black diamond, the NOW sports company. But it started out as a brand.

Just for mountain climbers. That wasn't enough to build and scale a sustainable brand.

They couldn't make it.

They eventually had to expand out to skiers.

Now it's all kinds of outdoor gear.

And so to me, what could work.

For you is to put together a.

Plan that you bring to some of.

The angel investors and say, look, right now we're focused on women's motocross because that's our core. But down the road, we want to focus on women's skateboarders and surfers and kayakers and hikers and all kinds of athletes. Like, to me, there's an opportunity to.

Think in a much bigger way. Even if motocross is the core of.

What you do and where you start, in my view, it's not enough to just build a business around that category. And, Angie, I'd be curious to get your take on this, because maybe I'm wrong.

[Angie Hicks]

No, no, I think you're right. Kind of knowing where you're going to grow and always having that path is. Is going to be important. You know, it's kind of like, hey, if we only thought about plumbers, but gosh, gosh, people need electricians and roofers and things like that, too. So how does that expand beyond. Because we would have never made it with just plumbers, for example.

[Paige McReynolds]

Yeah, 100% agree. That's. Eventually where we would like to go is not just dirt biking, but fishing, because there's no. No women's brands in fishing or women's lines. A lot of water sports. So foil, whether it's like wallboarding.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Paige McReynolds]

Snowboarding. Like, all the things that it. Just women are. It feels like women are put second. So I completely agree. I. We. We're itching to get there. When we actually started, we wanted to do everything at once, and then we realized that probably we would lose a little bit of our message in our brand. And so we honed in and picked the one smart that we had in common.

[Guy Raz]

That's. That's the tribe that you want to start with, the motocross. You really want to go to those events. You want to get these things on the bodies of women. Right. You want them to wear this stuff. You want to build a loyal tribe. But then from there, you've got to kind of go to the next circle and the next circle and widen it out. But you can have that plan in place now, even if you don't implement it now.

[Paige McReynolds]

Angie, you mentioned angel investors and starting. Potentially starting that avenue. Is there somewhere to go? Like, I don't know, is there a hub where you can go and look up angel investors, or do you kind of just have to know people or where do you start with that?

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah, I mean, there's both. I mean, you're going to find both kind of networks of angel investors that you can. You can find online and things like that, but also, like, think about your own community. I mean, I'm in Indianapolis, and I know that, you know, as you kind of learn about the community, you'll find people that are in your community that are potentially doing angel investors listing, too. And so, you know, kind of balance those two as you kind of network because it's really about having that strong relationship. So you want to make sure that you've got someone that, you know, kind of believes in, you can cheer you on and be a real advocate for you as you go along. So kind of developing that personal relationship will be important.

[Guy Raz]

Paige McReynolds. A brand is called McRae. Good luck. We're cheering you on.

[Paige McReynolds]

Thank you so much.

[Guy Raz]

All right, thanks. What I didn't want to say to.

Her was how scared I would be.

On a fast motocross bike jumping on those elbows.

[Angie Hicks]

No, it's totally not me. Totally looks really fun, but I love it.

[Guy Raz]

I'm like, you know now when, like, I just like stumble and bang my knee. It takes like six months for that bruise to heal. And I'm only 50.

[Angie Hicks]

You hit me both. Exactly. That kind of. That thrill of the excitement is probably in the past, but it's great to watch and it's fun to see her enthusiasm.

[Guy Raz]

It is cool. Although she was saying that they just like to go on the trails, which actually sounds really fun.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

We're going to take a quick break.

But when we come back, another caller.

Another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.

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Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.

I am Guy Raz and my guest today is Angie Hicks.

She's the co founder of Angie It's.

A brand you turn to for all.

Of your home improvement and maintenance help. What do you say Angie? Should we. Let's take another call.

[Keisha]

Great.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome to the advice line on how I built this year on with me and Angie Hicks. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

[Diana O'Connor]

Well hello Guy. Hi angie. I'm Diana O'Connor. I'm the founder and CEO of West and Table. We are a Boston based e commerce platform that is seeking to change the way that people open their wallet and shop online. And we have decided that we want this marketplace to be the go to place for living, giving and entertaining.

[Guy Raz]

All right. And you sell sort of home goods, right? Furnishings and even some furniture?

[Diana O'Connor]

We do, we sell very little furniture to be honest with you. We sell mostly table top entertaining things that you need. You know, things that make your house a home, beautiful artwork, a ton of Vintage items from around the world. A lot of American and women produced goods.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, cool. All right, so it's called Weston Table. Are you in Weston, Massachusetts?

[Diana O'Connor]

Yes, I am.

[Guy Raz]

I see.

Okay, that makes perfect sense now. All right, from what I understand, you launched us in 2020. Were you in that field? Like were you in home goods and sort of home decor before you started this e commerce business?

[Diana O'Connor]

No way. I was raising five children, a couple of dogs.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome.

So you had been raising your kids and you jump back into sort of, you know, the outside workforce.

[Diana O'Connor]

I did. I was working for a big investment advisor for many years before I had children. Then I stopped working altogether to have these five kids. Then they started going off to college and I was, you know, somebody who had a lot of energy. So I said, I'm going to put that everything I've learned being a parent to work, doing a business.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

I just want to say I love that so much. And if you listen to the show, you know how much I love founders who are over 45, over 50, which is Cynthia Tice, 57, started Lily's Chocolate, sold it for $425 million 10 years later. Because people think founders are like 22.

23, and it's not true.

Most first time founders Average age is 39, 40. You started this business when you were in your 50s.

I love that.

It's, that's awesome. And everybody listening should know it is never too late.

[Diana O'Connor]

It's never too late, but it just means I need to get there faster, so I'm faster.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. All right, good.

But you're coming with all this experience.

As a parent, I mean, managing a household, you know, talk about real world experience, that's no joke.

[Diana O'Connor]

It is. I started with, you know, myself and then another employee and now I'm up to 10 or 11 full time employees plus offshore teams. And it's pretty exciting.

[Guy Raz]

So you started this in 2020 and.

Now how have you done this? All online, direct to consumer.

It's remarkable.

[Diana O'Connor]

Well, I think we are meeting a place in the market where people are responding to. During COVID people were stuck in their homes and they basically had their husbands and children and Amazon as their best friends. And I loved, and I still love Amazon, but I got to thinking about all the things I missed on the outside world and what I really missed was that beautiful window shopping experience. That sort of casualness of just, you know, making your house, a home by going out into the world and finding things that speak to you in your travels, in your life. And I wanted to take my artistic talent and turn it into a website.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so before we bring in.

Angie, what is the question you brought for us today?

[Diana O'Connor]

Well, I guess, Angie, I'm super curious, because I know there came a point when you decided, you guys, in order to enter some of these bigger places, you needed to take on investors. I'm a national brand already. How do you make that decision? To give some of the control, or do I even have to give some of that control to someone else to really skyrocket this into the next level?

[Guy Raz]

All right, Angie, first of all, thoughts or questions for Diane.

[Angie Hicks]

When you say you want to. When you want to give up control, are you thinking about fundraising? Are you thinking about kind of running the business? Like, which area are you kind of contemplating the most right now?

[Diana O'Connor]

Well, I think this is a really deep question for me, because at my heart, I'm a creative person. I was trained as a financial person, but my heart is with the creative. And in order to really see the dream completely come to fruition, I need to spend more time finding ways to entertain people. And that's really difficult when I'm cfo, CEO, hr, and finding a way that I could focus. Focus on what I'm really good at and give up the things I'm not good at. And by finding a partner or an investor that would take this journey along with me. Like you said, you have to be careful about who you pick. But is it necessary? When's the right time?

[Guy Raz]

Diane, do you mind giving us a sense of what your revenue is right now?

[Diana O'Connor]

Just 5 million.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Okay.

So you've really scaled this quickly, which is awesome.

Are you talking about?

I mean, in your perfect world, would you want to have a CEO, and that would free you up to kind of focus on the creative side and the things that maybe you enjoy doing more.

[Diana O'Connor]

Yes. 100%.

[Guy Raz]

Okay.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important to know, like, knowing what you're good at, knowing what you want to do. I mean, you commented that you came out of finance. Like, I know it's easy for you to do the books, but it's not necessary for you to do the books. You need to be able to read them, understand them. And I have no concern that you're going to be able to do that. No one's pulling anything over on you, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. So, you know, finding people that can kind of take some of those tasks off of your plate, that just allows you to do things. My best example is I used to buy all of our media because I could not, because it was like I kind of found it fun or whatever. I was getting ready to have my second child, and my second child was born in the spring when I would buy all the media, and I was going to take a whopping six weeks off with my new one. And so I had to give someone else that job and that break. And being forced to make that decision was one of the best things that happened. We got better rates because she just wanted to make sure she kind of knocked it out of the park. And I didn't buy media anymore, which meant I could spend my time doing things that were more valuable to the organization.

[Diana O'Connor]

The cool thing is, I think we're at a space right now where if we brought someone in and they wanted to be a partner, and I mean a true partner, an investor partner, somebody who's willing to put what I've put into the business and do that as an equal is kind of exciting to me. I have people in my family saying, no, no, no, keep it as a family business. And I'm like, yeah, but you don't have to run it. So you don't have a say right now because you're not doing the heavy lifting here.

[Guy Raz]

I think that it's an interesting. I mean, they're interesting arguments on both sides, right? Like, we did an episode with Mike Synard, who started Specialized Bikes, and it was really.

He ran it for a long time.

And then he was encouraged to bring in professionals to scale it. And that did not work out well at all. It almost tanked the company. This is a cautionary tale. And he went back and retook it over and now and then he went.

Back to running it.

But we have plenty of examples where people brought on others operators who had different skill sets and really were able to realize the vision of the founder and to take it to the next level.

And I think that.

But to me, it's that balance. It's like interviewing spending time with that person months, maybe having lots of conversations, but then also building in the infrastructure that incentivizes that person to stay and.

Realize the vision and the project.

I mean, we had this story with Cava. Cava is now a national food brand. The three, the original founders were Greek American buddies who had a restaurant and eventually many years into the business when they were kind of small scale, they found somebody who wanted to join them, and he helped scale that business into a national brand. And it's been a phenomenal partnership for all of them.

[Diana O'Connor]

It's exciting to think that that's the direction that we're headed in. And watching Angie start at the very bottom in 100 square foot, but I don't know, office space.

[Angie Hicks]

And I think, yeah, you know, I've.

[Diana O'Connor]

Got about 100 square feet here. There is definitely excitement for the future, but finding the partner, I think is definitely it. It sounds, Angie, to me that you found a partner right off the bat.

[Angie Hicks]

I did. I did. So I had my co founder, and then he eventually joined the business as the CEO about three years after we started. So, you know, I had an easier path on that journey because I had an advisor that was wanting to step in. So that worked out perfectly and kind of let him kind of take that kind of scale and let me focus on the things that I enjoyed focusing on. So it was a good balance. One thing you might also think about as you're kind of talking about these interviews, I mean, if you're looking for a CEO, maybe you could go out looking for a CEO or you could go out looking for a chief operating office officer and finding someone that can kind of come in and then, you know, kind of work their way into the business. And then, you know, maybe, you know, in a couple of years, they take that CEO seat as you guys develop comfort around that as well.

[Guy Raz]

Indeed.

Diane O'Connor, the company, the brand is called Weston Table. Congrats on your success.

Good luck.

It sounds like you are well on your way to scaling this thing.

[Diana O'Connor]

Well, when I am scaled, I hope you have me back as a guest again.

[Guy Raz]

I hope so too.

[Diana O'Connor]

Thank you so much, Angie. I am a big fan.

[Angie Hicks]

Thank you. Thank you, Diane. Best of luck.

[Diana O'Connor]

Thank you. Take it easy. Bye, guy.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you. Bye. Yeah, it's amazing how, like, little. And I'm gonna sound like a complete caveman here, but how, like, little things like a tablecloth or table mats just like, completely transform a room, which I've just discovered because we just got a bunch of them on our dining room table, and I noticed that something was different. I said, oh, this dining room table is so good. I said to my wife, she said, yeah, because I bought new table mats or placemats, right?

[Angie Hicks]

I think sometimes people think they have to go big to make a big difference. And it's sometimes just the littlest things.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, if I lived by myself, I would just have, like, I don't know, some cardboard boxes in IKEA couches. But we have, like, blankets draped over the sofa or, like, strategically placed pillows that I would never think of. But they look really nice.

[Angie Hicks]

They look really good.

[Guy Raz]

They do, right?

They do.

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar.

Stay with us.

I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.

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I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Angie Hicks of Angie, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, caller. Welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

[Keisha]

Hey, Guy and Angie, thank you so much for having me. My name is Keisha and I am from can, Kansas City. And my business is Bridge the gap Spanish. And what we do is we help adults learn Spanish so we match our learners with native speakers to provide opportunities to practice and improve Spanish conversation. And then we also provide grammar and language coaching to help during their journey.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Welcome to the show. This is all online?

[Keisha]

Yes. It's all virtual. All online.

[Guy Raz]

And so tell me a little bit about how you started this business.

[Keisha]

So I actually learned Spanish through an immersion program in Oaxaca, Mexico. And I did that program right after college. And I had the amazing opportunity when I was there to start teaching esl English as a second language. And I fell in love. Like, I didn't know what a passion was until I started teaching English. And I was like, this is it. This is what I was born to do. And so when I moved back to the States, I helped helped a nonprofit in my area start their ESL program. And I realized, hey, I could be doing this on my own and helping people learn Spanish. And I just saw a gap with adults who were learning Spanish but didn't feel confident speaking it. And so for me, I had the opportunity to go and be immersed in everything like that. But for them, when you can't, you can't pick up and go to another country. So anyways, I decided to help fill that gap with us.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Tell me a little bit about how.

The business model works. How do you. Is it a monthly fee and how many classes do you get a week?

[Keisha]

Yeah. So it is month to month for our learners. We match them with a native speaker and then they pay month to month to meet with that native speaker one to four times a week, depending on the package that they choose. And then the grammar and the coaching really automatically comes with the program. So we don't charge Extra for that.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. And from what I understand, you kind of really relaunched this earlier this year.

So still early days.

Yes.

How.

I mean, how are you? How have you been able to find customers? Students?

[Keisha]

Yeah, so that's really how we relaunched is because I had started it technically in 2020, but wasn't getting any traction. And what it reminded me of when I listened to Angie's How I built this was automatically this one thing brought in tons of customers. For you, I believe it was an ad or something like that. And so for me, it was Instagram at the beginning of the year, all of a sudden, well, at the end of 2023, I started using Instagram. I was like, man, okay, you know, let me make some ads. And the ads just started bringing in new clients, and it was just like, okay, this is something. I've got something here.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing.

And what.

Tell. Tell us what your question is for us.

[Keisha]

Yeah, so my question is really what to prioritize during periods of growth, because I feel like, especially this year, as I've grown so much, I went from about five clients to now about 28, and it's just like, okay, like, now I need to do this and do that, and it's just so much at once. So how do you prioritize during moments of growth with so many moving pieces?

[Guy Raz]

Cool.

All right, we'll get to your question in a sec.

Angie, imagine you've got some questions for Keisha.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. So tell me. Explain to us how you're spending your time now. How do you break down your time? I think that would be helpful.

[Keisha]

Yeah, that's a really great question. So I actually spend a lot of my time focusing on the interaction with new clients. So really quite a bit of time on Instagram because that's where we've gotten most of our clients from. So making new reels and things like that and reaching out and making sure that they can reach out to us. And then I also spend a lot of my time communicating with current clients, so obviously, I want to make sure that they're fulfilled. So meeting one on one with some of our grammar students, I realized very early on that I can't meet with everyone. So I just started making grammar videos. And so that's where I spend a lot of my time is on those two pieces.

[Guy Raz]

Keisha, I'm curious about. Before we get into sort of your question, tell me a little bit about how you are differentiating what you offer from. I mean, there are. You know, there are big companies out there that have been around for a Long time. I think of like Italki, I think it's called that offer one on one online training in many, many languages with people around the world. So how do you, what are you offering to attract people to your. To what you're offering that makes it more appealing?

[Keisha]

Honestly, I feel like it's how we tailor the program to each individual learner. So a big piece of our program is the coaching aspect because all of our learners are adults. But what I feel like we do that's special is we really hone in on what's going to be best to help you learn, not just in the class, but even outside of the class. And how can we coach you through that and making you more comfortable to speak Spanish outside of just your classroom. And then I think the other thing that makes us different is we match our learners so we. So typically with those programs, you can pick like, oh, this is the person that I want to work with. And you know, I like this about them, but I meet with every single prospective student and I say, okay, let me learn more about you. Then I specifically match them with a native speaker that I think will work best with them.

[Angie Hicks]

And do you know how long your students typically. Do you have enough history with students yet to kind of get a sense? Is this something that someone does for a month, three months, six months? You know, because that'll also just help you kind of think about how you can scale your marketing if you know what basically the, you know, the lifetime value of that customer is going to be.

[Keisha]

Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think that that's something that I need to think about as I'm, you know, working on this. But most of our learners, they stay with us for at least, I would say at least four months. And we have many of our learners that stay even six months or more.

[Angie Hicks]

Okay. Because then that allows you to start thinking about ways that you can market. You're like, hey, if I can spend, you know, 10% of the revenue I'm going to generate over four months to acquire a customer, I'm just kind of making this up off the cuff here, you know, then you can start thinking about what types of marketing vehicles you might want to explore. Because it feels like you're at the point where like, hey, I feel like I have a model that's working as far as I've got. Once they're in, I like the high touch experience and the kind of the custom matching that you're doing and those types of things. So now the question is like, how do you go from 30 students to 60 students to 120 students?

[Keisha]

Yeah, exactly. So I'm curious. Question for you, Angie. I'm curious to know when you were in the early days with, with Angie's List, what percentage was going towards acquiring new members versus, like, helping those who were currently with you? Because I think that's where my struggle is.

[Angie Hicks]

Like, yeah, so we did have the benefit. We patterned Angie's List after another business that had been around for about 70 years. So we had the benefit of understanding that business model and we ended up buying that company. So in that scenario, we knew these paid members were going to stick around for five years, six years, so we could build out a pretty robust LTV lifetime value. And then I used 10%. That was about what we were spending to acquire a new homeowner. We're like, hey, we'll spend 10% upfront. And we knew we were underwater when we did that in year one, for sure. But we knew as we scaled that we had kind of a path on that money that we knew that it was going to return. And we were very diligent about making sure we were proving that out.

[Keisha]

Yeah, yeah. And I think for me, like, being so in the early days, like, like figuring out those models, I think it's going to be very central. So, yeah, that's a great point.

[Guy Raz]

Tell me a little bit about what you're doing on social media. Are you making videos?

[Keisha]

I am. That's what was the game changer for me. I used to just make kind of videos with words and things like that. But then I suddenly decided one day, hey, I'm going to put my face on here. And people love. And so, yeah, I'm typically sitting at a computer and it's a reel that says something about, hey, have you been struggling with your Spanish, like, you know, check our program out or different point of views and things like that.

[Angie Hicks]

I wonder if you also think about, you know, if the videos are working and you as the speaker on the videos. What about having a quick snippet of a student and one of the native speakers? I mean, you want to kind of get to the kind of, what's the difference in your program? And I think what you're saying kind of your secret sauce, is the fact that it's very much tailored and kind of focused on kind of real world. And so how do you show that? That becomes my question. So I'm wondering if there's a chance for you to think about almost a testimonial type thing, but Not a testimonial, because I think the real secret here is actually the interaction between the coach and the. And the student.

[Keisha]

So kind of, you know, giving someone a glimpse of what it was like for them to be a learner with.

[Angie Hicks]

Us so that they can have something to compare it to when they're out looking at kind of competitors that they might be using. It's like, what makes you different?

[Keisha]

Yeah. Yeah. So a quick question for you guys now. So I mentioned that Instagram has been my main source of clients recently. How do I know when to prepare, pursue other avenues, like diversifying my marketing? Because right now I feel like I'm getting most of my learners from there. So should I wait till that's tapped out or should I try and diversify right now and do other things? Or how should I navigate that?

[Angie Hicks]

I never give up on something that works, but you should always be testing into the next thing. So, you know, so if it's one of those where it's like, hey, this really works. So maybe you're spending 80 or 90% of your marketing dollars there because you can just kind of. It's performing. But you always want to be thinking about what's next because, you know, marketing moves fast and you don't want to get caught flat footed. So you want to know kind of what you're. You want to have a handful of vehicles that work well.

[Keisha]

Okay, well, that's helpful. And I. Yeah, that's something. A project that I need to work on is figuring out what those other avenues could be for us right now.

[Diana O'Connor]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

And it could be other social media. I mean, it could be like, okay, now I'm going to try TikTok next, or I'm going to try YouTube or whatever. So it doesn't have to be kind of like I'm going completely different kind of vehicle. But just make sure that you're. You've got some portion of your budget into exploring.

[Keisha]

Yeah. Having a little fun. Fun exploratory budget.

[Angie Hicks]

Exactly.

[Keisha]

I love it.

[Guy Raz]

Keisha, good luck. The brand is called Bridge the Gap Spanish. We'll be cheering you on and can't wait to see what you do.

[Keisha]

Thank you so much.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks for calling in.

[Angie Hicks]

Thanks.

[Guy Raz]

All right. It's really amazing how all of these opportunities have cropped up in the last 10 years. And really, I mean, my kids do online language. We went to Italy this summer. My wife, who's super disciplined, did three months of Italian with somebody in Italy at like 6 in the morning, like three times a week before we went to Italy.

[Angie Hicks]

Oh, My gosh, that's awesome. I know. I'm like, we're looking to go to France in the spring, and I think I am our only family member that has any friends. And it's, you know, It's a good 35 years old, so if it's left to me, we're out of luck. Yeah. So maybe one of my kids will decide to help us out.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, for sure. Angie, before I let you go, I want to ask you about something that I ask a lot of guests who come on the show, which is, you know, you're coming to the table with so much experience now, and so you have the benefit of perspective in hindsight, which is, by the way, anyone listening?

This is why we very rarely have guests on the show who are under 30, because not that they're not smart or interesting, even if they made hundreds.

Of millions of dollars, it's just you can't buy time, you can't buy life experience. And so we often will say, hey.

Come back, and let's talk to you when you're 40.

And we've made a couple of exceptions.

But generally it's that time scale that we're looking for. You have it. Right. And so I wonder, when you think.

About, you know, looking back at where you started and where you were, what do you. Is there anything you wish you'd known back then or that would have been helpful for you when you were starting out that, you know, could have, I don't know, helped you get through some tough moments?

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is just like being open to learning new things. I think we stress too much about things. Most of the things we worry about don't come to pass.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

And I think, especially as a young person, I'm like, are there things I wish I knew more of? I'm like, if I would have known more about business, I might have bailed. Right. Because I was kind of like. I knew I was doing. There was a bit of ignorance as bliss. But I think, you know, not taking things too seriously sometimes, you know, I tell the team a lot, and I have for years. I'm like, we're not running the er.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

No one's dying here, so let's kind of. Let's not make these decisions so, so heavy. Let's not stress so much because we need to kind of make our decisions and move on and kind of learn from them.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, for sure. Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie, thank you so much for coming on the advice line.

[Angie Hicks]

Thanks, guy. It was great to reconnect and by.

[Guy Raz]

The way, if you guys haven't heard Angie's original How I Built this Episode, gotta go back and check it out.

You can find a link to it.

In the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. People started calling you and you are the only person manning the phones.

[Angie Hicks]

I literally in like 100 square foot office space, we didn't have a phone system, we had a phone and so when we needed a second line we got a second phone. So I do remember times where I'd be like sitting on the floor in the office. Literally like toggling between two physical phones with no hold button.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter.

You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this.

Show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the.

Issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave.

A message there and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Chris Massini with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.

It was edited by John Isabella.

Our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Carla estevez, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Katherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, Devin Schwartz, and Neva Grant.

I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab.

If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

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