Bobby Trussell (3:51)

Yeah, it is. It is. I'm still pinching myself.

Guy Raz (3:54)

It's incredible. I mean, you eventually acquired a huge rival, which was Sealy. This is in 2012. And then you stayed on as vice chairman of the board until, I think, just a few years ago.

Bobby Trussell (4:04)

Right. I went off in 2022, so I'd been on for. At that point. We started in 92, so that's 30 years. That's enough.

Guy Raz (4:12)

Yeah.

Bobby Trussell (4:13)

Because what happened after I stepped down as CEO in 2006 was crazier than what happened before. And so I was around for all the. All the ups and downs for that, too.

Guy Raz (4:25)

Yeah. It's an amazing product and amazing business, Bobby. You have. Since you have kind of stepped away from Tempur Pedic in that world, you have really leaned into your faith. You publish a book about the. Is it the scientific proof of God?

Bobby Trussell (4:45)

The book is called the Logic that God Exists. And so when all this happened to me, I just was trying to find a way to support my family. I ended up in this mattress thing. CEO of a public company on the New York Stock Exchange. I said, lord, I said, when you give, you give gratuitously. And so my goal now is just to give back for that and just in any way I can. And so the book kind of sprung out of notes I had taken over the years from various lectures and thoughts that I had and books I've read. And what I observed in the culture out there is that there was a general weakening in the belief in God. And so, as a Catholic, I go to church and the priest is trying to get people to go to confession and go to this and go to that and the sacraments and all that. And I was realizing that we're trying to get people to go to step B and C in their faith. They're still stuck on step A. Let's focus on that niche and research it and write a book that explains how it's impossible for there not to be a God.

Guy Raz (5:58)

Yeah, it's interesting because, I mean, you know, for so long, the fastest growing quote unquote religion in America was no religion. Right. Or no belief. And there's some anecdotal evidence and I don't know how closely measured it is that there is a little bit of a resurgence happening in the United States around faith. And so we'll see if it's real or not. But it's interesting because I think these things happen for a variety of reasons. So it'll be interesting to see.

Bobby Trussell (6:28)

Yeah, I was at a leadership conference last week or two weeks ago and we broke out in small groups and I had a bunch of Gen Z 23 to 28 year olds. And I asked them that question. I said, do you see a revival in your age grouping? They said, definitely.

Guy Raz (6:48)

Interesting.

Bobby Trussell (6:49)

Why? And this One girl said, 23 year old. She said that it's because we have everything at our fingertips. With these phones and the technology, we can talk to anybody in the world. We can order anything we want. We have everything in the world. But we're not happy. So they're seeking and I think that explains it.

Guy Raz (7:11)

Yeah, it's amazing. Well, let's start on the show today. Let's see if we can give some advice to some early stage founders. Are you ready to take some calls?

Bobby Trussell (7:20)

I'll try my best.

Guy Raz (7:22)

All right.

Bobby Trussell (7:22)

Yes.

Guy Raz (7:22)

Let's do it. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with the legendary horse trainer Bobby Trussell Tempur Pedic founder. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

Leif Gildersleeve (7:36)

Yeah, hi. Thank you so much for having me. This is such a pleasure to be on the show. Bobby, thank you so much for all your words and advice. And guy, you're amazing. My name is Leif Gildersleeve. I'm calling in from Portland, Oregon. I'm a second generation fishmonger and I own a business in Portland called Flying Fish Company and we are a retail fish market and restaurant.

Guy Raz (7:58)

Awesome. Welcome to the show. And so you come from a family of fishermen?

Leif Gildersleeve (8:02)

I do. Well from fishmongers. Fishmongers. My family yes. So my family had a fish market in my hometown over in Idaho, growing up as a kid. So my dad used to fly in fish from the coast, from Seattle, fly it in inland where there wasn't good seafood. And so the name of the company is Flying Fish Company.

Guy Raz (8:21)

That's awesome. And how long have you have you run this business?

Leif Gildersleeve (8:24)

So I've had my own branch of it since the recession in 2008, 2009, and then I moved it. So here in Portland, it's been about 15 years.

Guy Raz (8:33)

Yeah. And so it's a. It's a store where. It's a fishmonger. You go in, you get fresh fish. But it's a restaurant is attached to it.

Leif Gildersleeve (8:40)

That's correct, yeah. So I started my early years here in Portland. I was just selling fish, first of all from farmers markets. And then I had a little truck where I would park on parking lot corners and sell fresh fish from the truck. That evolved into different phases, different locations. In my early years, I had a little shack on the corner of a produce tent. And then I ended up in a high end grocery store where I was the fishmonger. And I had a meat market in there and a cute little oyster bar. And then, well, almost six years ago now, right before the pandemic, I moved into my own standalone brick and mortar location, which was a full sit down seafood restaurant along with a fish market. So it's kind of evolved over the years.

Guy Raz (9:22)

That's awesome. And give us a sense of the split here. I mean, what part of your business. It's kind of two businesses here, right? You've got the fish market and you've got the restaurant. What generates more revenue?

Leif Gildersleeve (9:37)

Well, you know, as. As I said in the early years, it was all fish market. So 100% of my revenue was from the fish market. I evolved that into. I started producing smoked salmon for grocery stores and I was selling fish wholesale to restaurants. And then, you know, I had enough people that kept on asking me to cook the fish because it is, in some people's eyes, challenging. So that's when I started doing more of the cooked seafood and pivoting more into the restaurant component. Now the restaurant has pretty much taken over. It's over 75% of the SAL sales is the restaurant, whereas only 25 is the fish market.

Bobby Trussell (10:10)

Wow.

Guy Raz (10:11)

And so. Okay, tell us your question and then we will dive in further.

Leif Gildersleeve (10:15)

Yeah. Thank you so much, Bobby. So similar to how you pivoted from mattress toppers to pillows and then started to see that part of the business grow I've also pivoted, like I said, into different categories of the business. So, you know, my question is, I. I'm interested in growing again. I've been running the business now, like I said, for about 15 years. So my question is, is how know when you're doing those pivots and you start to see some feedback, you're starting to get sales, how do you know when you've kind of landed on the one part of the business that you think that you should really put the most effort into? Like I said, I kind of want to grow right now, but I'm figuring out whether I want to do more locations here within the Portland area or maybe even franchise it so that I can branch and expand more nationally to people that don't know about flying fish. How do you know when you've landed on that one part of the business?

Guy Raz (11:07)

Yeah, that's a good question, Bobby. Right. Because this is. Sometimes it can just expand and send a business on a rocket ship or can actually tank a business if you expand too quickly. Bobby, he's got a very successful restaurant and a fish market, and it would make sense to start thinking about expanding. But when do you know?

Bobby Trussell (11:28)

Yeah, I mean, my gut reaction would be to open up another location or two. That's what restaurants do, right? They get a template that works and they reproduce it in other locations, you know, often in the same city. But I would think that that would be the way to go. The other thought would be, as far as, how do you know which one's getting legs? What we did is we threw mud at the wall to see what would stick. And generally speaking, if it's a good one, it'll let you know. Early on, I remember when we tried things, we got several chiropractors and we sent them these overlays, which were 3 inch mattresses. And so we tried selling it at truck stops because we thought it would go good in the back of the cabbers for the semis and that we didn't sell any. And then we tried the pillow and that when I took it to a chiropractor, he said, oh, this is interesting. And by the way, we sell pillows, we don't sell mattresses. And I said, well, how would we distribute it? And he said, well, you could find a way to have somebody show it to them. And I said, well, what if you mailed him one? And he said, well, it might work. And then that's what we did. We mailed them. We mailed 500 chiropractors and 125 of them took up our offer, which was, this pillow is yours free if you order four. So now we have 125 distributors. So that was example of. It was like one of your fish, it hits the hook and you go, boom.

Guy Raz (13:15)

Yeah, yeah, I got one here.

Leif Gildersleeve (13:17)

And you feel it?

Guy Raz (13:18)

Yeah, yeah, I think. Okay, so I think I got some thoughts here, because, Leif, it sounds like you're sort of trying to figure out, right, Do I franchise this thing? Do I expand or build another restaurant? And so here's what's interesting to me, right? If the restaurant is generating about 75% of the revenue, your customers have already told you where the demand is, right? It's the restaurant. But I suspect the reason why the restaurant is so successful is because of the trust and credibility of the market, right? Because they're going in there, they're saying, oh, they've got direct sourcing and they're getting really fresh fish. So they could see the fish in the market, and then they go to the restaurant and they know what they're eating. And so, I mean, to me, it seems like a fairly straightforward path, right? Which is, I don't think you're ready to franchise now. I think you have to test first, right? You've got to figure out whether this is replicable first, which means if you can get the financing, open a second location, see if you can replicate the success of the first one with that model, with the market, with the restaurant. And then you start to. Then you start to evaluate, you know, you need some data to figure that out, because franchising is a different business. Right now. You are a restaurateur, a franchise operator. It's systems, it's documents, it's training, it's, you know, protecting your brand. It's scale, it's supply chains, it's providing financing. It's a whole different type of business, which is an interesting business. But first you have to see whether you can actually have success with this model in another location. Maybe in Portland, maybe somewhere else in Oregon, maybe, you know, wherever. And that will give you the data.

Bobby Trussell (15:05)

Yeah.

Leif Gildersleeve (15:05)

You know, one of the things that came up in my thought when you were saying that is, I do agree with that, with the scalability and make sure that it works. You know, one of the problems is staffing. You know, I've got a great general manager and a chef, and they really run the ship right now. And all my employees and we found ways to do profit sharing and health insurance, and we do equal tax.

Guy Raz (15:26)

We've got an amazing dude I know so many restaurants that have not made it because of that. Right. That's hard.

Leif Gildersleeve (15:33)

Yeah, it's great. And they do a great job because there's accountability there in that. So my fear is when I go to do another location, I don't have those same people, so I'm going to have to build it again. And I'm a guy with a lot of energy, and I've been there, boots on the ground, and done all this. But it's also super complex because Leif Guildersleeve is there doing 8 trillion different things. What I have to do is I feel like I have to pull back and make sure that for that scalability, that it's a real simple model, because right now, it kind of gets more complex as I do all these different facets of the business because it's me involved. But when I scale it, I've got to go backwards a little bit and make it simplified because seafood is pretty difficult just as it is.

Guy Raz (16:16)

Do you have a bible that really describes what you guys do, how to do everything, like a manual?

Leif Gildersleeve (16:26)

You know, it's sort of. Sort of, kind of, but not really.

Guy Raz (16:30)

Okay.

Leif Gildersleeve (16:30)

So it's something that's great. It's certainly been worked on.

Guy Raz (16:33)

That's great. That's something that you should really lean into, because if you want to train people, like, people might be coming to see Leaf, they might be coming to see you. Right. But you can't scale yourself. But you also need people who are going to care about the quality and the standards like you do. But they need the. You need to. You need to codify it, not only in how to do things, but why you do it. You guys had a brand bible, I'm sure, at Tempur Pedic. Bobby.

Bobby Trussell (17:00)

Yeah, well, it took us a while, but we did. Yeah. This is what we learned when spreading into other countries. We had this mattress operation here, but they made me CEO of the group, which included 26 countries. So all of a sudden, under my purview was Spain and France and Japan. And what I learned there is you're only as good as the guy you got there. If you have a good guy in Spain, Spain's gonna do great. If you have a marginal guy, Spain's not gonna do well. So if you can get comfortable with the guy and then, yeah, have the handbook and have the rules and what to do, but it's mainly getting that guy and make it worth his while. Pay him whatever it takes, because what you're trying to do is reproduce you. And I think that's the best advice I could give.

Guy Raz (17:55)

Yep. Awesome. Leif, thanks so much for calling in. Leif Gildersleeve, you've got one of the best names in the fish business, Leif Gildersleeve from the Flying Fish Company. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in.

Leif Gildersleeve (18:07)

Thank you very, very much. I appreciate you guys.

Guy Raz (18:09)

Awesome, man. Thank you. Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. This show is brought to you by American Express. Running a business means making countless choices every day, some small and some that can change everything. The business owners who thrive are the ones who are ready for whatever comes next. And having the right support behind those decisions can make all the difference. That's why so many business owners I talk to choose the American Express Business Platinum card. It's built to help them move quickly and take their business further. And with five times membership rewards, points on flights and prepaid hotels booked through amextravel.com, you can turn any business trip into a chance to earn more and invest in your business's future. Plus, you get a flexible spending limit that changes as your business does, adapting to where you are and where you're headed next. Because when it comes to growing your business, there's truly nothing like Business Platinum. Not all purchases will be approved. Terms apply. Learn more at Go Amex bplat. You know, one of the most surprising things about How I Built this is just how many pitches we get. Every year, tens of thousands of businesses reach out, hoping to tell their story. Now, while we do try to read most of those pitches, we can't possibly read all. But we choose most of our guests through our own deep research. And that means my team and I spend hundreds of hours digging into companies, what they make, who's behind them, and whether their journey can inspire you. And that's exactly where Claude has become such an incredible thinking partner in my creative process. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good night. The thinking partner that works with you to explore the things that fascinate you. Whether you're researching late night curiosity spirals or working through complex creative challenges, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems together. For example, imagine I'm about to sit down with a founder of a snack company. I'll want to know what products they've released, how they've evolved, and which competitors they're up against. In the past, it could take hours to track down reliable details. We'd search articles, databases, reports. Now Claude can give me a clear answer in seconds, and then I can decide what to dig into further. It doesn't replace my process, but it sharpens it. And that means I can spend more time doing what I love most, focusing on the human stories, the lessons, the decisions, and the struggles behind the businesses you hear on this show. Experience what collaborative thinking feels like at Claude and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. You know, every holiday season, I think about Die Hard. Yes, that holiday movie. Because at its core, it's really about chaos slowly turning into teamwork. One guy trying to save the day with a little unexpected help from the people around him. To make these holiday favorites, it takes a team of talented people, from actors to editors to props. People, people, the sound crew and more. And when it comes to building such a team, whether it's for the entertainment industry or a wide range of other industries, you need to hire the right people. The best way to do that is with ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com Bilt make your hiring a little merrier with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. Ziprecruiter.com Bilt Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Bilt ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Bobby Trussell, founder of Tempur Pedic. And we are taking your calls today. And let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Bobby Trussell, founder of Tempur Pedic. Welcome to the show. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

Colleen King (22:58)

Hi. Hi, Guy. Hi, Bobby. My name's Colleen King. I'm based out of Steamboat Springs, Colorado, and my business is Holla Gear. So we manufacture specialty inflatable standup paddle boards with a focus on river performance through unique and patented features. People use our boards on a lot of different waterways, from flat water to their local river, all the way to pushing the up limits of white water.

Guy Raz (23:22)

All right, cool. Welcome to the show. Colleen. This is so paddle boarding. People know. A lot of people know you go to the ocean, you got a big paddle board, and you paddle and. But this is. These are. You make paddle boards for rivers for, like, whitewater rivers.

Colleen King (23:36)

Yes, yes, that's right.

Guy Raz (23:37)

So it's a different kind of paddle board.

Colleen King (23:39)

Yes, exactly. Yeah. We really focus on design that allows for performance on the river specifically. Of course, we have boards that can go in flat waters and lakes, but our specialty is the river market.

Guy Raz (23:50)

Okay, so you stand on this thing, you're not, like, locked in, right? It's not like a snowboard. You stand on it with a paddle, and you go on a whitewater river, and you somehow manage to stay on it?

Colleen King (24:02)

Yes, that's correct. We even have some folks, primarily in Scotland, that are dropping waterfalls. Not locked in, standing on the board.

Guy Raz (24:10)

This is a. I love this call because this is a niche product. Okay. And I don't mean. I mean that in the most respectful way, and I love those kinds of products, and they can be great businesses. How did you just get into this business? What's the story?

Colleen King (24:23)

So I'm actually recently the owner. We switched ownership two years ago. I worked for the company for about six and a half years.

Guy Raz (24:31)

And when you say company, was it a bunch of people? What was it?

Colleen King (24:35)

We had about 20 employees, and we owned Hala, and then we also owned an online whitewater retail store called CKS Online.

Guy Raz (24:43)

Okay, and you are now the owner.

Colleen King (24:45)

And I'm now the owner.

Guy Raz (24:46)

How did that happen?

Colleen King (24:48)

Yeah. So after Covid, there was kind of the boom and bust of the outdoor industry. We got put in a position where we had canceled orders, a bunch of financial strain, and I was able to put in an offer to our founder, who's still very involved. He's our lead designer, amongst many other hats he wears and. Yeah, took over the business last May.

Guy Raz (25:09)

All right, so you sell these boards, and I'm assuming mainly online, or do you sell them in shops?

Colleen King (25:14)

We started out in 2011, primarily B2B, and now we're about 85% direct to consumer online, and then 15% to shops.

Guy Raz (25:25)

And what do you expect? Give me a sense of what you expect to do this year in sales.

Colleen King (25:29)

We're forecasted to finish at about 850,000.

Guy Raz (25:33)

850,000 this year. Wow, that's great. That's awesome.

Colleen King (25:38)

Second year in a row of being profitable.

Guy Raz (25:40)

That's great. And before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

Colleen King (25:44)

Yeah, so my question is, after switching ownership and clarifying our identity as Premium River Sup, how do we grow our revenue from here? Do we invest in increasing participation and education around the sport? Do we focus on expanding our presence in specialty shops and river communities? Or do we work to develop adjacent product lines for core river paddling?

Guy Raz (26:06)

Got it. Okay. Sup? Stand up paddleboarding.

Colleen King (26:09)

Correct.

Guy Raz (26:09)

Right. Okay. I just want to clarify that. Okay. I'm not always great with acronyms. Okay.

Colleen King (26:13)

Yes.

Guy Raz (26:13)

Let me bring in Bobby Trussell. Bobby, you started with a very obscure, weird product that people were like, what is this? This is, of course, a niche sports product. First of all, thoughts, questions, answers for Colleen.

Bobby Trussell (26:28)

Question, I guess is, is this a market that you created, or is it established market that you're a small part of?

Colleen King (26:38)

Yeah, excellent question. We were the first company to design a board specifically for Whitewater. So from the beginning, we've been pioneering the sport, and now there's some competition in the space, but we still are the go to river paddle board company.

Bobby Trussell (26:54)

Well, I can just tell you from my experience, we were at a kind of a crossroads. We're about 10 years in, and we did some research from Bain Capital, and we had been branching out into chairs because the material was so cool. We thought. My Swedish partners thought that, oh, well, they didn't think of us as a mattress company. They thought of us as a innovation company where we have this wonderful material. Yeah, we can put it in mattress, we can put it in chairs, we can put it in insoles in your shoes. We can put it in hospitals and nursing homes and wheelchair cushions and all this stuff. And so we were kind of going every which way, and these guys at Bain Capital, and I was really kind of against this because it cost $200,000. I said, are you kidding me? We're going to spend 200 grand to get an opinion about our business? Well, they called 500 of our stores that we were in, and when they got done, they knew more about us than we did. And they came back and they said, you are a very small part of a very big niche. At the time we were positioned, the mattress is kind of like if you have back pain, you need this. You need tempur Pedic. And so they said, you should not be branching out into all these other places because you don't want to take your eye off the ball off your core business, especially if you have a niche that there's no competition. I mean, we were a revolutionary point of difference compared to the kind of the old innerspring industry. I mean, for 100 years, it had been just innersprings. We come out with this fancy foam thing that had actual, tangible and measurable benefits. And they said, you need to stop doing all this, focus on. He said, you are a mattress company. And that changed everything. And I went back to the Swedes, my Swedish partners, I said, well, this is what they said. I agree. And so we got rid of all that other stuff. And so that's when the thing took off, when we focused on our core business. And the fact that competition comes in, that can be a positive thing. Because what you want is your niche to get bigger. Right. You don't want to be the only fish in the pond. So what happened with us is people copied us or tried to, but they didn't do it as well. But it made the niche more acceptable, which we dominated.

Guy Raz (29:32)

I totally agree. I think that right now it sounds like you are the brand in river standup, paddleboards, paddleboarding. And so. So you really want to lean into that role. Right. And even though this is kind of a niche sport, right. And paddleboarding is bigger, but river paddleboarding in particular is niche, it still has a. Sounds like a really committed fan base. So you want to make your brand aspirational. Right. Almost like how Patagonia really began with rock climbers and that was a niche sport back in the day. Right. And you to double down on this idea that your customers are part of a culture. Like when I look and you may be doing that, I don't know, when I look at your website, it's clear you've got your shop and everything. But I think that there's an opportunity to really lean into the people who are using your products and to see if you can start to generate photos, videos, content that really builds. Builds a community. Right. Because this is a group of people who are, I mean, how many people do you meet who are like, I stand up, paddleboard in rivers, whitewater. So I mean that's a community of people that you really want to cultivate and own.

Colleen King (30:53)

Right? Yeah, I think that's good advice. We definitely struggle to have people visualize themselves doing this because it seems there's a barrier to entry in a bit, but. But once people try it, they feel that sense of community. They understand what we're all about. They understand the adventure and the connection to themselves and the environment and other people in an expedition way, you know, we're pretty limited in resources. We're very small, so it's hard for us to know do we invest that in going to shows and river events or when someone buys one of our fourteen hundred dollar boards we have. Our customer retention rate has increased by 60%. So we have a loyal following. We just have such limited funding to know which way to focus our attention on the river community.

Guy Raz (31:48)

Have you experimented with ads?

Bobby Trussell (31:51)

Yeah, I was just gonna say we were in a similar situation early on, selling through chiropractors. And we went to all the shows and everything. It was really a waste of money. You know, we go to a show and we spend five grand or something and we get, you know, 10 chiropractors. It just wasn't cost efficient. And so my advice is advertise.

Guy Raz (32:12)

What?

Bobby Trussell (32:12)

Guy just said advertise. Advertise. Advertise it.

Colleen King (32:16)

Okay. Yeah. We only spent about $10,000 on advertising last year. We were a bit inventory constrained. So I think that's great advice. Thank you.

Bobby Trussell (32:27)

A rule of thumb is 10% of sales.

Colleen King (32:29)

Okay.

Bobby Trussell (32:30)

So you should be spending 80.

Colleen King (32:32)

Yeah. Okay.

Guy Raz (32:33)

It's hard. I'm sure that sounds hard, but he's right. That's right. It's a rule of thumb. All right, Colleen, the brand is called Holla Gear Stand up Paddle Boards. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.

Colleen King (32:41)

Great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and advice.

Bobby Trussell (32:44)

Thanks. Colleen. Good to meet you.

Colleen King (32:46)

You too.

Guy Raz (32:47)

Yeah. I mean, have you ever done stand up paddleboarding like in the ocean?

Bobby Trussell (32:52)

No, my wife has. I'm six. Six. And my center of gravity does not conducive.

Guy Raz (32:58)

Yes. Yeah. Right. Because you got. I can imagine that. Yeah, Right. But it's great. It's great exercise, actually. It's really terrific exercise.

Bobby Trussell (33:07)

I see them out there all the time.

Guy Raz (33:08)

Yeah, it's great. Great for your shoulders. Awesome. So this just. I think it's amazing to imagine somebody, you know, in flat water in the ocean. I'm barely, you know, able to stay on top of it, but, man, doing this in like white water, that's intense.

Bobby Trussell (33:22)

Yeah. That takes some skill, I would think.

Guy Raz (33:25)

Yeah. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and I'm taking your calls with Bobby Trussell, founder of Tempur Pedic. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Bobby Trussell. Welcome. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

Amanda Horan (34:05)

Hi, I'm Amanda Horan. Co founder and CEO of Line and Cleat, the only women owned US Coast Guard approved life jacket brand in the US Based just outside of Chicago, we're redefining how modern families experience safety on the water.

Guy Raz (34:19)

Awesome. Well, thanks for calling, Amanda. So this is a life jacket brand, right?

Amanda Horan (34:24)

Is that right?

Guy Raz (34:24)

Okay, exactly. And tell me, what is it? What do you guys do? I mean, I know life jackets. I've been on ferries and on boats. And you put on a life jacket, it's usually orange. Right.

Amanda Horan (34:35)

And probably not attractive, right?

Guy Raz (34:37)

Yeah, I mean, I usually put it on. Right. And so tell me about what you're doing here.

Amanda Horan (34:42)

Absolutely. So my husband and I, he's my other co founder, we started the business, launched the collection in 2023. And so we design with elev and like an elevated lifestyle in mind. And so we are bringing subtle colorways to the life jacket game. The industry's been stagnant for decades. Just like you said, a utilitarian kind of not so attractive life jacket is the first thing that people think of when they think of life jackets. And it dawned on us that this is a huge blind spot in this industry and in this market. And so when we launched the collection, we really wanted to, to speak to those leisure boaters and water enthusiasts that are not looking to go jet skiing and not looking for that like intense water sport, but really looking to carry on those family traditions and just enjoy time together out on the water.

Guy Raz (35:34)

And these are life jackets for kids.

Amanda Horan (35:37)

We started with our kids collections. So that was our first launch. So 0 through 90 pounds, infant, child and youth. But we are launching universal adult sizing for spring 2020.

Guy Raz (35:48)

Got it. Okay. And how did you get into life? I mean, is this, did you come from a family of people going on boats?

Amanda Horan (35:54)

My husband did. Yeah. So my husband grew up on the Mississippi river in Iowa and his father passed down all of, you know, his boating traditions to my husband. And so when we got married, you know, we started boating and we have two daughters. And so when we started taking them out, it really dawned on me as a parent that there isn't much choice at as much as you think. You have all these brands to choose from. A lot of them read very one note. And if you look deeper into the industry, a lot of them are under only five larger umbrella companies. And I didn't love the way they looked. I felt like it was kind of an eyesore in the middle of this beautiful family moment. And we saw that there was an opportunity here. And very quickly after launching the first collection, we had rapid sales and it's been growing, I feel lucky to say, you know, very quickly since then.

Guy Raz (36:47)

And you're selling direct to consumer through your website?

Amanda Horan (36:50)

Yes, 90% direct to consumer. We'd love to push wholesale, too.

Guy Raz (36:54)

All right, let's dive in. What's your question for us?

Amanda Horan (36:56)

So my question is we recently opened our pre seed round to bring on strategic partners and raise capital to meet the growing customer demand. But we're not from the traditional startup world. So I'd love some advice around breaking through that cold email phase and getting in front of VCs and angel investors with not having those established relationships. So any advice around that?

Guy Raz (37:16)

How much are you looking to raise, by the way?

Amanda Horan (37:18)

Our pre seed right now is 400. We've secured 50. It's all a safe note with a $2 million cap right now.

Guy Raz (37:25)

Okay, I have a lot of thoughts for you. I want to bring in Bobby questions for Amanda before we dive into her.

Bobby Trussell (37:31)

Question, I guess, on the product itself. Is there a functional part of it that's a point of difference or is it just the designs?

Amanda Horan (37:41)

Great question. So most of life jackets out there are made with a very tough rip stop nylon that's a little bit uncomfortable. We use a softer neoprene fabric that wears more like a swimsuit. And even on our nylon option, it's a much lighter weight nylon. So kids are less cranky when they're out there for a long time out on the water with their family.

Bobby Trussell (38:01)

And how, how big is the market?

Amanda Horan (38:03)

So it's a $1.3 billion market, and then we're hoping to move into boating accessories, which is even larger at 6, 16 billion.

Bobby Trussell (38:11)

Yeah, well, that's important because so many people are used to looking at the downside of a business and fail to look at the upside. So how big can it be if it works? Not how much can I lose if it goes wrong. And so it's important to have a upside in the market in a niche that you're in. And apparently you have that.

Amanda Horan (38:38)

Yeah, I hope so. I believe so.

Guy Raz (38:41)

Amanda, let me ask you a question.

Amanda Horan (38:42)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (38:43)

What do you want to do with the cash that you raise?

Amanda Horan (38:46)

So the majority of it is going to go to scaling inventory because we do have right now we have a waiting list, for example, for some of our best sellers. We get a lot of inquiries around wholesale accounts and we want to push to, like, luxury hotels and different avenues. But we are constrained on our inventory because we've been bootstrapped this entire time. So it's really Time for us to scale it. This would open up more collaborations for us. We've had a lot of interest around there, but as the brand, we want to be able to support that product. And so that's the majority. And then also making sure that once we get the inventory, we have the proper marketing to push it out to the proper channels to move that inventory through.

Guy Raz (39:27)

So it sounds like, I mean, can you do part of this without. Without raising capital?

Amanda Horan (39:33)

We can. It's tight. We did recently create a partnership for some inventory financing that's a little bit more unique. Not your traditional bank financing, which has been a blessing, but we've put everything we personally can into it. And so we're also really looking from a strategy standpoint to maybe work with someone that has done outdoor products or, or children products or things that can kind of help us take this to the next level. And the feedback that we've gotten from VCs is we absolutely love what you're doing. Call us when you're bigger. We see potential here. We want you to hit that million dollar. So we've done about a quarter of a million so far, but I know we can hit it if we have the inventory.

Guy Raz (40:20)

So I'm gonna give you my take on this. And it's based on the people we talked to in the interviews we've done. Having a quarter million sales is hard to raise venture money. It's just hard, especially in a consumer product. It's really where you want to go to anyone, you know. Right. And so your question was, like, how do we raise money when we don't have the connections and contacts? And the reality is it's not about connections and contacts. It's about what the data shows, what you can prove. Because investors don't make investments because they know they met somebody. They make investments because they think they're making money back and they need that assurance. And so I wonder whether, I mean, you said you're outside of Chicago, right?

Amanda Horan (41:01)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (41:02)

And you said you've raised about 50,000, correct. Right. So far. And so I think that in order to attract significant capital, they're going to want to see data. For example, if you were to get a distribution partner where you're, I don't know, like, is there like a national chain of marinas or, you know, I don't know, yacht clubs? I mean, something that shows that you can actually scale.

Amanda Horan (41:31)

Right, right. No, that's a great point. And we have just partnered with a national E Comm distributor. So I think that that will really push and I have a pitch next week. So I'm going to include that in my pitch deck. And then there's, you know, a prospect from the marina side that I'm hoping comes to fruition in 2026. But I think that's a great point to really drive that point home of the future.

Guy Raz (41:53)

Bobby, how did you guys finance the first runs of the mattresses?

Bobby Trussell (42:00)

We raised about $500,000 the first year, 1992, and we were in the same boat. We had very little sales at that point, but we had a good story, and we thought that we could show people that there could be a high degree of a big success.

Guy Raz (42:21)

But who gave you that money, Bobby? Was it professional investors or was it people that you just kind of knew? Friends of a friends of a friend.

Bobby Trussell (42:28)

Friends and friends of a friend. My college roommate. My mom gave 50, my dad gave 50. And the famous story about my Uncle Bill who gave me 50,000, I listened.

Amanda Horan (42:38)

To that on the podcast.

Guy Raz (42:39)

I remember. You lost the check.

Bobby Trussell (42:41)

I lost the check at a Burger King.

Amanda Horan (42:44)

But he sent you another one, right, didn't he?

Bobby Trussell (42:46)

Overnight. And he had just lost a bunch of money with me in the horse business.

Amanda Horan (42:51)

That's right.

Bobby Trussell (42:51)

I thought, man, he's never.

Guy Raz (42:53)

He believed in you.

Bobby Trussell (42:54)

But he did. And I told the story that that 50,000 ended up paying for the college of all 28 of his grandkids. So it was a happy story. We did. Here's what we did. We didn't want to give up equity, right? But we were okay with giving up some. So we gave for. If you give me 50,000, you'll get either 1 or 2% equity in the company and a 4 to 1 payback on your money. So you gave me 50, I'll give you 200, plus 1% or 2%, whatever it was. So we raised money on those terms. That was Uncle Bill's terms. And that worked because we. We gave up a small part of the company, 10% or something. So equity is your currency, and you don't want to give it all up, but you got to be prepared to give some of it up. And when we hit 45%, where they own 45% of our company now, and I'm going, man, this is going the wrong way. But then we stopped and it worked. And they said, years later, they told me that it was. If they had gone over 50, they would have felt like they had to run it. They didn't want to go over 50 either. So it all worked out.

Amanda Horan (44:08)

Yeah, they don't want to take it on.

Colleen King (44:09)

No that's great.

Guy Raz (44:10)

Yeah. I think that you want to start and you prior doing this, but you may have to double down on it. It's friends of a friends of a friend. Ask any conversation you have. And I remember getting this advice 30 years ago when I started as a journalist. They said I was trying to figure out how to break into this business and people said, hey, call this person but don't let. But when. Make sure you walk out of that with another number or with another person to contact. It's very simple advice and it works. So you're going to have to concurrently run this business, try to sell them, but also make the pitch to people that you know because those are the ones who are going to this initial round. I think it's going to be harder to get it from professional investors, VCs. They're going to want to see the data, they're going to want to see some, some traction.

Bobby Trussell (44:58)

Sure.

Amanda Horan (44:59)

No, absolutely. I think that's a. I have to find my Uncle Bill. I gotta find Uncle Bill. I thank you.

Guy Raz (45:06)

Yeah.

Bobby Trussell (45:06)

And, and do a three year pro forma projection. Yeah. I know you're pulling numbers out of thin air, but it's really important and people like to see it that okay, here's what the company's worth now x, it can be worth, worth 5x or 10x and that's. And therefore my investment could be worth that much.

Amanda Horan (45:25)

We have that now. We've been consistently, you know, two and a half year over year since just launching in a short amount of time. So. But I, I see what you're saying. Like really paint the picture for them so that way they can see it.

Bobby Trussell (45:37)

Show them the pot at the end of the rainbow. Then why do it for them?

Amanda Horan (45:40)

Exactly.

Bobby Trussell (45:42)

Yeah.

Amanda Horan (45:42)

There's a pot. I believe. I have faith. There's a pot.

Bobby Trussell (45:44)

Yeah. Good.

Guy Raz (45:45)

Amanda, thank you so much for coming in. The brand's called Line and Cleat. Good luck.

Amanda Horan (45:49)

Thank you.

Bobby Trussell (45:50)

Very nice to meet you.

Guy Raz (45:51)

Nice to meet you.

Bobby Trussell (45:52)

Bye bye.

Guy Raz (45:54)

Yeah, I mean I just. What I love is when you take a category that's just boring or you just. No one really thinks about it and you reimagine it. Right. You sort of, you say, well, why does everybody accept that life jackets are orange with reflective tape on it and let's make them a little more interesting.

Leif Gildersleeve (46:12)

Yeah.

Bobby Trussell (46:13)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (46:14)

Bobby, before I let you go and it's been great having you on as usual. You're just so great. If you could go back to where you were when you were really in dire straits and not just Trying to figure out what when you were starting out, this thing that became Tempur Pedic, and you could give yourself advice now that you now know what would have been helpful for you to know back then?

Bobby Trussell (46:40)

Yeah, because we didn't know anything about our business, we didn't know anything about mattresses. And so. But it turned out to be that that was a good thing. So, you know, we did everything the opposite of how our competition was doing it. We had one size, everyone else had like 15. We had one price, everyone else had a bunch of different prices. We never discounted everybody else discounted. We advertised nationally, everybody else advertised locally, which turned out to be a huge advantage because national ads are much cheaper per capita than local ads. And so, I mean, that was something that would have been nice if they had told me that. But. And the other thing is we had some internal questions in the company of how big we wanted to be. Because when we were selling to Brookstone, that was one of our big breakthroughs. They were major retailers and we became their number one product and we were starting to really coin it. And so the question is, do you want to be a niche player or do you want to be big? And my instincts were we got to think big. And that's also what was a huge part of our success, was just that mentality that we got something no one else has and we want to exploit that advantage.

Guy Raz (48:12)

Bobby Trussell, founder of Tempur Pedic by the way, if you haven't heard Bobby's original episode, the Tempur Pedic Story, go back and check it out. It's incredible. It's such a fun story. It's amazing. And here's one of my favorite moments from that episode. How did you raise the money to start this venture at all?

Bobby Trussell (48:30)

Well, that's a really good question because I had to go back to all my basic same people who had invested with me in my other horse ventures that failed, right? Yeah, that had failed and gone broke. So I had to convince them that even though we lost money in something that I knew a lot about, that we were going to make money in something that I knew nothing about.

Guy Raz (48:56)

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-43- leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Chris Messini with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Katharine cipher, Casey Herman, J.C. howard, Kerry Thompson, Romel Wood Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.