Advice Line with Chieh Huang of Boxed

Summary

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How I Built This: Advice Line with Chieh Huang of Boxed

Host: Guy Raz
Guest: Chieh Huang, Co-founder of Boxed
Date: April 16, 2026
Format: Advice Line – Founders call in for feedback

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Episode Overview

This Advice Line edition of How I Built This features Guy Raz in conversation with Chieh Huang, co-founder of Boxed. Together, they offer hands-on, strategic guidance to three early-stage founders facing pivotal business and growth challenges. In the episode’s spirit, Chieh reflects on the journey (including Boxed’s bankruptcy), shares learnings from success and failure, and provides thoughtful, candid feedback on each caller’s business.

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. Chieh Huang’s Post-Boxed Journey and Lessons Learned

Timestamps: 04:20 – 10:12

• After Boxed went public and subsequently filed for bankruptcy in 2023, Chieh speaks openly about the emotional toll and the lessons learned.
• Chieh emphasizes that in hindsight, he wouldn’t trade the experience:

  "If we had a time machine and we travelled back to my parents’ garage...I would say, sign me up now. Because the people I’ve met, the people we’ve helped, the things I’ve learned, I just wouldn’t trade it for the world." (05:36, Chieh Huang)

• He now co-founded Pelgo with Frank d’Souza, focusing on affordable, scalable outplacement and job transition services—addressing job loss due to AI.

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2. Caller 1: Alec, Founder of Surfing Cow (Natural Skincare Brand)

Timestamps: 10:39 – 26:29

Business Background

• Alec’s brand, Surfing Cow, makes natural skincare for “people who live outside,” including a mineral sun balm and moisturizer. Their unique ingredient is beef tallow—a nod to heritage formulations.
• Revenue scaled from ~$74,000 in year one to a projected $220–250K. Manufacturing is all done at home.

Challenge

• Alec seeks advice on scaling without sacrificing the brand’s “soul,” maintaining quality and radical transparency while considering manufacturing and possible fundraising.

Advice & Notable Quotes

On Scaling Production:

• Guy Raz: “You can’t make this yourself in the long term… You’ve really got to find somebody who can make them for you... focus on locking down the formula.” (16:52)
• Chieh Huang: “Your number one job right now is to make sure this thing can scale so the wheels don’t fall off in the coming months... Getting the working capital to actually begin professional manufacturing...that’s something you’re going to have to figure out pretty quickly.” (16:20)

On Raising Capital:

• Chieh Huang:

  "...Most businesses are quite binary... this is going to be really big... or we’re going to see it nowhere. And actually when you think about the dilution you’ll take from outside capital...if this becomes a billion dollar business...you’re not going to find a very sympathetic Chieh when you say, ‘Oh my gosh, but I had to sell 15%.’... But you know, what you don't want to have happen is that it could have been a billion dollar business, but you didn't want to give up 15%." (21:43)

• Guy Raz:

  "If you do raise money...I wouldn’t raise more than $50,000 at most...with small checks from people you know that believe in this.” (23:09)

On Finding a Manufacturer (Co-Man):

• Guy Raz:

  "You really want to visit these places and talk to people. Part of it is instinct and you will make mistakes... It’s like dating not marriage, and I think that’s how you have to approach any relationship you enter into." (25:17)

On Maintaining Brand Soul:

• Guy Raz: “The core here, the foundation here isn’t the cow part, it’s the surfing part. That’s who you are. That’s what this is. It’s about a lifestyle.”

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3. Caller 2: Jessica, Founder of Tail Cinch (Equine Products)

Timestamps: 29:35 – 38:24

Business Background

• Jessica started Tail Cinch, a brand offering reusable tail ties (hero product) for horses, largely to eliminate the waste of traditional electrical tape and improve animal welfare. The products are being adopted beyond the polo market, including by general horse owners.

• Annual revenue: $70K–$80K, steady over four years.

Challenge

• Should Jessica list on large retail platforms (Chewy, ValleyVet) despite thin margins, to boost awareness and growth?

Advice & Notable Quotes

On Expanding to Large Retailers:

• Chieh Huang:

  "Yes, I do think it is worth it to go on those platforms... as long as you're not losing money and you know data will show whether you're cannibalizing your customers or not, it can be an excellent way to get the brand out there." (35:51)

• Che caution:

  "What you have to really worry about is not so much the erosion in margin but also the working capital... Retailers are going to expect really long payment cycles... so your thin margins just became even thinner." (35:51)

On Product and Market Expansion:

• Guy Raz:

  "Now you're talking about a much bigger total addressable market...there’s an opportunity to really innovate in these kind of stale products that people have been buying for decades... No one’s really disrupted or changed." (37:30)

On Overlapping Pet Markets:

• Chieh Huang:

  "If you own a horse, there's a very high likelihood that you own other pets... targeting that audience via Chewy and some of the pet specialty platforms might not be the worst idea." (38:02)

Market Size Reality Check:

• Guy Raz:

  “Apparently, the total addressable market for just horse products—gear and apparel—is $20 billion.” (38:50)

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4. Caller 3: Eli, Co-founder of My Makor Coffee (Functional Beverage)

Timestamps: 42:32 – 55:21

Business Background

• Minneapolis-based organic coffee blended with anti-inflammatory spices (cacao, turmeric, cinnamon, chaga mushroom, cayenne, ginger). Distribution: DTC plus local/regional retail.
• On track for $200–300K sales, 300 subscribers/month, mostly online.

Challenge

• The spice blend (esp. cacao) slows the brewing process, causing overflow with drip machines at high volumes—risking customer churn. How to balance health impact, mass appeal, and operational reality?

Advice & Notable Quotes

On Product Adaptation for Scale:

• Chieh Huang:

  "...Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?... In order for the blend to be to your standard...but for it to have big uses...you might need to modify the formula a little bit." (46:57)

  • Suggests a formulation adapted for office/commercial drip machines, since “office coffee is like a knife fight of an industry.”

• Guy Raz’s suggestion:

  "Literally just say, best brewed in a French press... While you’re trying to formulate something that would...down the road you want this to be in K cups... But in the meantime... best brewed in French press or pour over." (44:44, 50:43)

On Expanding Formats and Ease:

• Guy Raz (citing Justin’s Nut Butter):

  "What changed... was... the pouches... Could you do something...like... single serve freeze dried coffee pack that also has, say, 10% of the freeze dried herbs and spices...an instant version of this for people to take on the go... Just an idea." (53:38)

On Moats through Difficulty:

• Chieh Huang:

  "...With challenges come sustainable moats. If you’re able to have that proprietary grind, that could be really interesting because anyone who’s going to copy this...will have to figure out and walk through the same difficult steps that you’ll walk through." (49:56)

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Closing Reflections

Final Advice from Chieh Huang (55:50–56:53)

"I would tell myself that... the reward is the journey... every entrepreneur experiences the same thing. It’s problem after problem. And it gets tough, lonely, stressful. But as I’ve walked the path for now, almost two decades, I enjoy it... I think you’re going to find me... back on the show when I’m 75 with a new company, because I think solving problems and... affecting people in a good way... So if we took that time machine, I would say, listen, you’re gonna have ups, you’re gonna have downs, but enjoy the ride because it’s gonna be worth it."

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Radical Transparency in CPG:

  "You’re like the Bridgewater Associates of the beach. It’s wild."
  (20:17, Chieh Huang to Alec/Surfing Cow)

• On Funding and Dilution:

  “If this becomes a billion dollar business... here’s $100 bill, dry your eye.”
  (22:34, Chieh Huang to Alec)

• On the Reality of Entrepreneurship:

  "It gets tough, it gets lonely, it gets stressful. But... enjoy the ride."
  (56:42, Chieh Huang)

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Notable Timestamps

• 04:20–10:12: Chieh’s post-Boxed journey, founding Pelgo
• 10:39–26:29: Surfing Cow: scaling, soul, manufacturing, fundraising
• 29:35–38:24: Tail Cinch: market expansion, retail platforms, innovation
• 42:32–55:21: My Makor Coffee: product optimization, brewing challenges, format innovation
• 55:50–56:53: Chieh's reflection on entrepreneurship

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Tone and Takeaway:
Guy and Chieh’s approach is warm, humorous, hands-on, and candid. They consistently acknowledge both the highs and lows—emphasizing iterative problem-solving, authenticity, and embracing the messiness of building something new.

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For Founders:
If you’re at a similar inflection point, consider:

• Focusing early on scalable infrastructure (manufacturing, operations)
• Seeking mission-aligned, small-scale capital before running out of bandwidth/capacity
• Experimenting with formats and channels, even if it means iterating the product for different uses (e.g., office vs. home)
• Protecting the soul of your brand, but not at the cost of missing out on outsized opportunity

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Thanks for having me back, guy. It's going to be a great conversation.

[A]

So you Che, you were first on How I built this in 2021. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. But basically 2013 you launched boxed, which was an online bulk retailer that you could get toilet paper and laundry detergent and I think it was like 500 of the most common household items, products, foods that people would buy. I remember you talking about, you know, packing up boxes and pallets of boxes coming to your parents garage in New Jersey and you guys sent out tens of millions of these boxes of groc industries around the country. Since then, BoxD went public in 2021 and ran into some difficult times after the pandemic ended. And unfortunately by 2023, you guys filed for bankruptcy, which I'm sure was extremely difficult. I mean, the story of building Boxed and the success you guys achieved was amazing. And I'm sure just what happened was so hard. I mean, I have a million questions for you, but first of all, what was it like for you just personally going through that? Because I can't imagine it was easy in any way.

[B]

Yeah, it's been a wild, traumatic, I would say decade since the founding of boxd. But if we had a time machine and we traveled back to my parents garage and we told that person that story about what will happen in the next 10 years of our journey and my life, I would say sign me up now because the people I've met, the people we've helped, the things I've learned, I just wouldn't trade it for the world.

[A]

I love that. It's interesting because a lot of people write in and say, why don't you guys focus on companies that didn't make it, that failed. But of course, over 10 years of doing the show, we've had some companies that aren't around anymore. It happens. There are a variety of reasons. In your case, there were probably macroeconomic challenges and competition from Sam's club and Costco and other big box retailers. Ultimately, in your view, was there anything that you could have done or could have been done differently to have prevented bankruptcy?

[B]

For sure, first and foremost, any decision, especially business decision in life is could I have done better? And we probably need 10 hours of tape in order to go through all the things that I feel like I personally could have done better. But hindsight's 20 20. With that said, the macro factors were really tough. So we were coming out of COVID We were a new issuance of public stock in the New York stock exchange. We were unprofitable, smallish cap. So we were a little bit above a billion in terms of market cap and e commerce Covid story. And so that was really tough. And as your stock price starts to go down, people get spooked, your vendors get spooked, and everyone gets spooked. And so we still had what, almost $20 million cash left in the bank. But collectively we decided the best kind of path forward was boxed was to sell our software business. So BlackRock ended up buying that and owning that. And then the e commerce business unfortunately was shut down but has since been resurrected. But I have nothing to do with the box that has been resurrected today.

[A]

So I know you presumably took some time off, but I think you did some interesting things afterwards. Did a stint with the world economic forum, I think. And now you are starting up a new company. Tell me about it.

[B]

Yeah. Someone I had known for a while who's a recruiter called and said, I've got the perfect job for you. And I said, I think you're full of it. And he's like, why? And I said, you're a recruiter, this is exactly what you say about every job. And he said, that's true, but this one is really compelling. And it ended up being at the World Economic Forum. So being able to get that, I guess that point of view on kind of macroeconomic conditions around the world and being able to meet interesting people from around the world, both in the private and public sectors, really helped me incubate this next idea, both from an idea perspective, but more importantly from a co founder perspective.

[A]

Tell me more about how it works.

[B]

The company's called Pelgo P E L G O. My co founder in this company is a gentleman named Frank d', Souza whom I met at the World Economic Forum. He co founded and was a CEO of Cognizant, which is now like a Fortune 2 or 300 company founded in the 90s. And so basically we had this thesis that there's going to be not only job destruction in America because of AI, but also job creation. And what we found was that there's so many folks incentivized on job destruction and if that happens, who's taking care of the folks that are actually exiting their jobs? Meaning that who's helping them prepare their resumes, who's helping them retrain, and who's helping them find their next job in an AI enabled world? And of course, we came upon this industry called outplacement. But what we found is outplacement is, you know, costs several thousand dollars and unless you're a certain level of executive, you generally don't get it. And so we thought, well, why don't we create an outplacement service where it really is for everyone. It costs a fraction of what it does normally. And so that's what we do. We help folks land their next job faster in a more cost effective way. And that's Pelgo.

[A]

Well, congrats. I mean, it's exciting to be, I'm sure now back in the trenches.

[B]

Yeah, I love every moment of it. I feel like my stress is up 100%, but my happiness is up 500%, so it's a fair trade.

[A]

All right, Che, are you ready to take our first call?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

All right, let's bring on our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're Hong, founder of Boxed. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[C]

My name is Alec and I am calling from Cardiff by the Sea, California. It's a small little beach town here in North County, San Diego. And I started A small skincare brand called Surfing Cow. It's just simple, natural skincare for people who live outside. Also, Guy. Che, dude, I'm so, so stoked to talk to you guys right now.

[A]

Well, we're stoked to have you on, man.

[B]

This is crazy.

[C]

I have to say this also, Guy. I've listened to this show since 2016.

[B]

2016.

[C]

I'm going to business school. I'm like, brick, dude. I want to start a business, and I. I'm so inspired by it.

[A]

Oh, thank you.

[C]

All the entrepreneurs that I've listened to and kind of felt like I have a little bit of that and you're able to pull that story, and I related to it, so. Yeah. I just want to say thank you.

[A]

Thank you. That's why we do it. That's why we get people like Che on the show, and they all come back because they want to do that. They want to serve you guys and give you the best advice they can give you, and that's. It's all about. It's all about building. So. All right, Alex, so you are so Surfing Cow. I'm assuming you're surfer, right?

[C]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

Okay. And it's a skincare brand, so, like, moisturizer. Tell me what you sell.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. So first product was the sun balm. So mineral sun protection. And then I launched a second product in August, which is a moisturizer. Very, very simple.

[A]

All right. I know. So surfing makes sense because you're a surfer, right? You live near San Diego. What's the cow part?

[C]

Yeah, it's a great question. So tallow. Beef tallow, which is a really, really great ingredient, historically, for many years for skin, is one of the main ingredients in both products.

[A]

Okay, so the beef tallow, like, basically, how do you turn beef tallow into. I guess it's soft, right? Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So it's a fat. A b. Fat suet. And then you render it down. Render it down. You can deodorize it. It's so similar to our own skin barrier. It's very bioavailable for your skin to absorb.

[A]

Wow. Okay, so this is really interesting because this is very. It's certainly unusual, right? It's skin stuff and sunscreen made with beef tallow, which interest. We're living in a beef tallow moment, as you know. Right. We're at a beef. Everybody's talking about beef tallow. This and frying and beef tallow, and it can't.

[C]

My sister kind of turned me on to tallow the ingredient. A few years prior, I was getting into skincare. And then I was using tallow. I'm like, dude, I grew up in San Clemente. Small beach town.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I never wore sunscreen.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I hated the fit was greasy. I was like, dude, this stuff just is, like, not great. A lot of it historically has chemicals in it. Mineral sunscreens becoming super popular.

[D]

It's like, I could make one in the kitchen.

[A]

Tell me how. So you launched this? When did you launch this?

[C]

Yeah, so I started in January, and I was just like, I'm gonna document every step. And then in April, I launched last

[A]

year of 2025, correct?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool. All right, tell me a little bit about how the business is doing right now. You are making it yourself or you have an outside manufacturer.

[C]

Last year, it was just shy of 74,000. And then this year, we're projected to do, like, 220, 250. With the way January, February, March has gone so far, so pretty cool. But I'm still in my house, so I'm like, I guess I can just keep going.

[A]

I'm looking at your website, and you've got the. You break down how much it costs you to make each unit, which is amazing. Obviously, you sell it for more than what it costs because you got to make a profit, but that's really cool. So. All right, so you are on track to do about $200,000 this year in sales, you think?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this month, just in March, has been like, you know, it went from like, three orders or five orders to, like, it's like 20, 25 a day.

[A]

And all social media marketing or social media ads. Is that how you're doing it? How you're reaching people?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Awesome. Okay, before we dive in further, tell us what your question is, Boris.

[C]

My question is I want you guys to close your eyes here for a second.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Really?

[C]

If you were in my shoes, obviously, I've started this business. I'm a solopreneur, if you will, and there's a lot of people saying, maybe do this, do this, do this. It's a growing skincare brand. I'm still making, doing everything at home. I'm packing the orders. I'm Shay. I'm writing the names on the thank you cards. I'm signing them. What levers would you guys pull? What would you be focused on right now for this business? To ensure that it grows healthy and I don't lose the soul that people have fallen in love with.

[A]

Okay, interesting. What would you do to make it grow? Okay, I have some thoughts, but Che Thoughts, questions for Alec.

[B]

This is really interesting, Guy, I'm really glad you invited me because learning about these companies is fascinating. And Alec, I just closed my eyes and I couldn't help but feel jealousy that you're next to a beach and I'm here freezing in New Jersey. But, but man, I mean you've, it seems like you're starting to catch lightning in a bottle. I, even when Guy kind of like clarified the revenue number, I was like, wait, like, can I. Can you say that again? And you just started. That is pretty wild. And I'm just wondering what happens if literally 3,000 orders comes your way tomorrow?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I feel like your neighbors are going to be really angry and you're going to be usurping their kitchens.

[C]

All my friends make fun of me still because they'll call me. They're like, are you in, Are you in Surfing Cow hq? Which is just my house, you know, and they're like, are you cooking? I call it, you know, cooking because I make everything myself.

[B]

So my initial reaction is like, geez, your number one job right now is to make sure this thing can scale so the wheels don't fall off in the coming months. If your orders are late, if they're substandard, that's an Alec problem, that's a surfing cow problem, that's not a customer problem. They don't want to know that. Oh, so many other folks like this brand that I can't get it anymore. Or it takes two weeks to get it. Getting the working capital to actually potentially begin professional manufacturing of this product, that's something you're going to have to figure out and figure out pretty quickly.

[A]

Yeah, I think I agree. You can't make this yourself in the long term, especially if you're looking at trying to hit 200 grand in sales this year. That's just not possible. And I'm sure you're hiring some people part time to help you fill jars and label them and ship them out, but it's just not sustainable. I mean, you've gotta really find somebody who can make them for you. And what you wanna focus on right now is locking down the formula. Now you may have already done that, but if you haven't, you really wanna finalize your exact formulation. Cause when you go and work with the quill manufacturer, you know, small changes cost money. And so you want to really have it locked down as close as possible to what it should be. It means you need to be testing and maybe you've already done some of this shelf life consistency. How does it affect, you know, heat. If you stick it on a counter and you're in a warm house, does it turn into, you know, coconut oil? Liquefies. Right. So you want to kind of look at all of those things and then you want to find a small to mid size contract manufacturer. Now you're very lucky. You are in California and there are probably half a dozen of these places in California and Utah and other states that are FDA registered that specialize in natural products that have worked with early stage brands like yours. And so you really want to start focusing on finding that partner to make your formula to the exact specifications. Now, in terms of growing the brand in other ways, I think you also have this natural opportunity. Surfing cow. You're a surfer. There's a lot of interest and enthusiasm around natural products, especially animal products. You're not gonna get vegans using this, of course, but that's a small percentage of the, of the population. But I do think you have an opportunity to go and see if you can do collaborations with some other San Diego based brands like Viori, you know, huge brand, been on the show before Reef, see if they might be open. I mean, they're bigger brands, but see if they might be open to doing something with you. And then, you know, down the road you want to start to look at Whole Foods. Right? Because Whole Foods loves local products. But I wouldn't jump into huge orders right away. I would really start with pilot runs working with a co man. But that to me, and I think, you know, agreeing with Che here, that's got to be your priority.

[B]

Yeah. Alec, I've literally been in your shoes before and so I'm getting PTSD because you're at that cusp of like this thing really beginning to kind of be a thing. Hearkening back to my box days, we did not scale early enough from that point and so we were still fulfilling out of my mom's house and we had to like undrill her garage door and there were 40 foot trucks coming down, you know, a residential street. So I think, yeah, I mean getting someone to manufacture this. And the thing is like every single successful consumer brand that guy has had on the show has been in your stage and has had a co man bet on them. And given this website that I'm looking at and how you've, you're, you're, you, you're this radical transparency ethos that you espouse, it doesn't shock me that people are giving it a try. I mean, you even put up your actual fixed.

[A]

Yeah, it's cost?

[B]

Yeah, like your fixed costs. It's like how much LLC filing has cost you. That's. It's pretty wild, man. You're like the Bridgewater Associates of the beach. It's wild.

[C]

I just thought it'd be a cool idea. When I started, I'm like, you know, like I've always had these questions of starting a business and obviously this podcast has been a huge resource, but the manufacturing piece, I guess I've been a little apprehensive because it's like on one side of the coin I feel like, yeah, I need to really just marry this business. And maybe that does mean taking on outside capital and going to. Guy, you had mentioned FDA regulated facilities. Sunscreen is regulated as what they call an OTC drug. So it could be if I don't white label a formula, which I wouldn't. This would be like my own formula, you know, that could be upwards of 50 to $80,000 per sku. It's a nine to 12 month process. And that's not that I'm like afraid of doing it, but I guess what I'm saying is I feel like you guys are giving me the maybe validation of like, dude, this thing has legs, go for it. Because that's sort of my. I haven't taken any money since I've done this. I've tried to just fund it all myself and I would love to continue to do that. But I guess the question is if it sounds like if I can't continue to just do it myself is it's like do I just go for it and find manufacturing? If that means taking on outside investment, just so be it.

[B]

I feel very strongly here, guys. So hopefully it's okay if I jump in. So in. Everyone I've ever talked to at your stage has asked the same question you're asking us. And as well as you're asking yourself, I, you know, I'm only sharing my opinion and for every one of my opinions you'll probably find a counter, counterpoint. I think it's okay to take outside capital because most businesses, the end result and the, the quote unquote end result for the founder. Most businesses are quite binary, like meaning that this is going to be really big. Like we're going to see Surfing Cow and Sephora and Whole Foods and everywhere over the next five, 10 years or we're going to see it nowhere. And actually when you think about the dilution that you'll take from outside capital, you know, if this becomes a billion dollar business, Alec, I think you're not going to find a very sympathetic Che when you say, oh my gosh, but I had to sell 15% of a billion dollar business. I'm like, well, Alec, here's $100 bill, dry your eye, you know, because it's still so big and it'd be so life changing. But you know, what you don't want to have happen is that it could have been a billion dollar business, but you didn't want to give up 15% of the company. So it's a zero dollar business today. So that's why I always say, don't worry too much about it. Focus on making this a really big business. And all those other concerns are tertiary.

[A]

I would alter slightly and say if you do raise money, you want to, and I think you're not going to get institutional capital now, you're too small. But you want to get small dollar amounts from people, you know. So I wouldn't raise, really, I would not raise more than $50,000 at most. And I would try to do it, you know, with small checks from people that you, you know, that, you know, that believe in this, you know, people who might be able to throw in a thousand bucks. I, I think you want to be really conservative about that because, you know, at the end of the day you, in order to really scale, you're going to have to have many, many, many more skus. Right? Right now you've got just a few. And you're going to want to expand out around this sort of idea. And it may, you know, it may naturally evolve into something that isn't just beef tallow, but it might be, you know, you might decide to have a vegan option with, you know, avocado oil or something. You know what I mean? Who knows? The core here, the foundation here isn't the cow part, it's the surfing part. That's who you are. That's what this is. It's about, it's about a lifestyle. I mean, you know, you're gonna need to evolve and grow and build out and create more products. But I do think that if you wanna go for some cash to get these first production runs in, that would be my recommendation.

[C]

Okay, sorry, one word. I might never get this opportunity. So I have to ask, I have to ask it. But Guy, you end every podcast and you say, what do you attribute to hard work and what do you attribute to luck? And everyone in these CPG brand spaces, when they talk about co man, they talk about that sort of being this magic sauce. That said, you guys are both talking about Finding a CO man and I have spoken with a few, but the question is, is there something that I'm missing here? Are there certain questions? It is a gut feeling or is it just a stroke of luck and someone's going to be like, yeah, like, I heard you on a podcast or I saw your video and like, we want to help you, or is it just pick up the phone and just be like, I'm going to dedicate a month to just finding the right one?

[A]

It's both. You know, if it's somebody who's like, I really want to work with you, that's a great sign. But they may not have the capacity to do it in the way that you need them to do it. I mean, really, you want to visit these places and you want to talk to people. Part of it is instinct and you will make mistakes, which is why, you know, we've had brands on the show that work with the same CO man from the very, very beginning to this day and others that changed for a variety of reasons. So you really want to test the waters. You're dating right now. You're not asking anyone to marry you. And I think that's how you have to approach any relationship you enter into. And, you know, the, the answer will come in the result that you see.

[B]

And Alec, I'm guessing, just given what I've heard, you know, I, I think you're going to have your own manufactured luck based upon your energy and based upon the fact that you've cooked 200 grand worth of beef Tallow sun products in your own kitchen. I get the feeling you're a hustler out there and you're going to find some luck if you keep up that hard work.

[C]

I appreciate it. I actually don't mind it, but I, I, I agree with you guys. I need to get out of the kitchen.

[A]

Get out of the kitchen, man. Alec, the brand is called Surfing Cow. Thanks so much for calling in, man. Good luck.

[C]

Appreciate you guys.

[A]

Thank you. Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I built this lab. About a year ago, I got these really cool hooded sweatshirts for everyone on the How I Built this Team. And I got them custom embroidered with the show's logo. Whenever I wear it, people are constantly asking, where can I buy that? And, well, sorry, you can't get them because I had them custom made. But if you want something just as cool for your team, vistaprint offers everything you need to confidently and effortlessly create branded apparel. Choose from a range of options that fit your style, business and budget because your team deserves the best. Whether you're looking for branded merch, for giveaways or for team uniforms, get the best apparel for your business at vistaprint. You can also get lots of other custom products like drinkware, stickers, notebooks, pens, T shirts. So much more to help you market your business your way. Vistaprint print your possible right now, new customers get 20% off with code [e-mail] if you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and Sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's online ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts did you know that Apple has a new tool for helping businesses like yours grow? It's called Apple Business and it's free. To get started today, just claim your location and control how your business shows up across Apple apps including Maps, Wallet and more. And starting this summer in the US And Canada, you'll have a new way to show up to an even wider audience of potential customers with ads on Apple Maps. Sign up for Apple Business today. Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Chae Wang, co founder of Bulk Boxed. And Che, you ready for our next call?

[B]

I am ready. I couldn't be more ready.

[A]

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Chae Wang, founder of Box. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

[E]

Hi Che. Hi Guy. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. My name is Jessica Dubin and I'm calling from Indio, California and I'm the founder of Tail Cinch, which is an equine products brand focused on innovative and sustainable tail care and other essentials for horses.

[A]

Awesome. Welcome Jessica. So Indio not too far from like Palm Springs Coachella area right yes.

[E]

I'm right across the street from the music festival.

[A]

Oh. So there you go. Tell me about tail cinch. What is it?

[E]

Yeah, so my hero product are reusable tail ties that I made for polo ponies because I myself am a polo player. And when horses are galloping, they naturally swish their tails. So you want to tie them up to get them out of the way for safety reasons and obviously to keep the flow of the game going. It can be very dangerous if a mallet gets stuck in a horsetail. So the status quo is electrical tape, which I. Ever since I started with polo, I found to be very wasteful. A lot of people just throw it on the ground after the game. They don't pick up after themselves. And it just drove me crazy. So I thought there had to be a better way to do this that maybe was reusable and also more attractive than vinyl electrical tape. So I created these reusable tail ties, and they're Velcro. They're Velcro, and they have a faux leather strip on the outside for style, and then they have silicone grips on the inside so that they stay in place and don't slide down.

[A]

Okay. I love this because this is super niche. I mean, not to not. I mean. I mean, in the best of ways. Right. Polo is a game that a tiny fraction of people probably play, but probably a necessary thing for. So just to clarify, horses tails are tied with electrical tape like they do. They put it directly on the tail of the horse.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

That must be painful to remove it.

[E]

It can be, yes. Especially on the inside where the skin is exposed. So the top of the tail has hair, and the bottom is more just skin, and it's not great. But, yeah, it's interesting because even though I started this with polo and polo ponies, it turns out that a wide variety of horse owners and equine practitioners have a use case for tying up tails. And so it just grew out of there. So now I've got horse owners of all kinds using my products, so that's okay.

[A]

So, okay, this is really interesting. I have a lot of questions for you, but before we get to Che, tell me a little bit about your. Your business. How what are you guys doing in sales right now?

[E]

Yeah, so I do between 70 to 80,000 a year in revenue, and I've been in business for four years. I pretty much hit that number every year, but I'm not really growing from that. And I think that sort of brings me to my main problem right now.

[A]

Please. Yeah. So tell Us your question?

[E]

Yeah, so I've seen a lot of traction with paid social and influencer outreach, but both can be expensive and difficult to scale on a limited budget. So I'm wondering, do you think that getting my products on platforms where horse owners are already shopping, like Chewy or valleyvet is a worthy brand awareness play, not just a revenue play, even if the margins are super thin because my product price point isn't that high?

[A]

All right, great, Great question for Che, because he knows that world very well. Che, I want to bring you in. Any thoughts? First of all, before we answer Jessica's questions, any questions that you might have for or thoughts?

[B]

My question that a clarifying question that I had was it seems like you have been, you know, I'm looking at the website now and it seems like you are expanding outside of just the tail cinch. How has that gone? Because that will also kind of influence the answer I wanted to give you.

[E]

Yeah, so it's gone really well and I've gotten great feedback from my expansion products and I've sort of adopted this direction of trying to make what's out there better because there's not a lot of innovation in horse products. You know, people sort of remake the same thing over and over again. The brands just like stick to what they know. And there's flaws, clearly, because I've seen customers come to me and ask if I can fix them. So the issue is that, you know, with so many products and a limited budget, how do you market each one? Do I pour it all into the hero product and have people coming in for that? You know, spreading my marketing budget across all the products? That's where the challenge is because I still hit the same numbers even though I have more products.

[B]

That's fair. And so with that said, my if it was just, the TLDR answer would be, yes, I do think it is worth it to go on those platforms. You'll know better than we will in terms of which particular ones. But they could be excellent almost. If you view it as in zero kind of cost of acquisition kind of ways of marketing. And so as long as you're not losing money and as long as you know data will show whether you're cannibalizing your customers or not, it can be an excellent way to get the brand out there, especially if you have other products. The reason why I asked the question before is that if tailsense is your only product and the only product that's doing well, then it probably will start to really cannibalize your base business. And just erode your margins. But if you can get them to say, well, you know what, this tail cinch thing is pretty cool. What else do they have? And let me go directly to the website. I think that could be a very powerful tool. What you have to actually really worry about is not so much the erosion in margin, but also the working capital component of it. And so retailers, especially big ones, are going to expect really long payment cycles. And so even though you sell that tail cinch, you might not get paid for it for half a year. And I've definitely seen kind of entrepreneurs get bitten by that. And if you then have to factor that payment, AKA kind of finance that payment so you get the money early so you can continue to produce, what also happens is the factoring companies will also take a cut. And so your thin margins just became even thinner. So definitely that true cost of listing that product, that's an exercise you should definitely do.

[A]

Yeah, I'm looking at your products. I'm thinking, wow, this is. Now you're talking about a much bigger total addressable market. You're talking about fly protection for ankles and for a horse's face and different kinds of products that aren't just for polo players. And that, to me is really interesting is what is the best selling product that you have right now?

[E]

Well, it's still the tail ties. You know, they definitely do. At least 50% of the sales come from the tail ties. People love them. I have a lot of repeat customers that come back and buy them again. They buy them in all the. You know, I have 21 different colors, so I have another style of them. So, yeah, those are still the hero. But yeah, yeah, I mean, to answer

[A]

your question, I agree that Chewy is worth going onto. It can help with awareness. But. But ultimately you want to change behavior. And that happens at competitions through trainers and at the barn or wherever else that people are around horses. And something you said earlier really struck me, which is there hasn't been a lot of innovation in the things that people buy for their horses. So I would imagine that most horse owners have to buy certain things. Like most dog owners buy balls so their dog can play fetch, or they buy water bowls that they can carry with them on hikes. It seems like based on what you're saying, there's an opportunity to really innovate in these kind of stale products that people have been buying for decades that haven't really. No one's really disrupted or changed.

[B]

You also. Sorry to jump in here, please. You brought up a really great point about dog owners as well as horse riders. Meaning that I wonder what the data is on the overlap. But I would bet that if you own a horse, there's a very high likelihood that you own other pets at home. And so targeting that audience via Chewy and some of the pet specialty platforms might not be the worst idea in the world to see where that overlap is. That could be. That was quite intriguing.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah, that's great, great advice. It's a great, great point. And there is a large overlap between horse owning and dog owning. It's kind of. They go hand in hand, so. And even cats, too, because barn cats. So there's a way to connect them there.

[A]

Awesome, awesome idea. The brand is called Tail Cinch. Good luck. Thanks again for calling.

[E]

Thank you so much for having me. Take care.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, horses are. It's like a thing that if, if you are a horse lover rider, like, it's. It's a huge part of your life.

[B]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it's one of those things that unless you're really into it, you would never go after it in terms of a market. And it might be sneaky big in terms of the ability for them to generate profits because it's such a niche and defensible market.

[A]

I just did a quick search. Apparently the total addressable market for just horse products. Right. Just gear and apparel, is $20 billion.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

And that's not nothing. I mean, that's significant. You get, you know, 5% of that. You've got a big business. So.

[B]

And the thing that I love about it is that you get that audience, I'm going to guess, out of. Out of that audience, probably nine. Exactly. 99.9% of that audience is not cost conscious.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And that is a market you really want.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. I mean, it's the same for pet owners. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to your pet, like, for most of us, it's. It's kind of crazy how money is no object. Right. When it comes to our human in our life. But the pets, it's like, yep, whatever they need.

[B]

I bet. Even if money were an object guy, if times got tough in the Raz family, I'm sure you're cutting out your daily coffee run rather than any pet food. So I, you know, that's. That's my lived experience as well.

[A]

Yep. All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. You may have heard the best voice in show business, Morgan Freeman, talking about a serious and underdiagnosed heart condition that's often attr cardiac amyloidosis, or attrcm. It's a condition that can greatly disrupt your life, with symptoms like severe fatigue, shortness of breath, and carpal tunnel. If left untreated, ATTRCM may become serious, leading to a shorter lifespan. A truby helps adults with ATTRCM live longer and have fewer hospitalizations due to heart issues, so you can focus more on living for what you love. Tell your doctor if you're pregnant, plan to become pregnant, or are breastfeeding, and about the medications you take. The most common side effects were mild and included diarrhea and abdominal pain. If you have attrcm, talk to your cardiologist about a Truby and visit attruby.com podcast that's a T T R U B-Y.com podcast to learn more. It's time to get busy living. Brought to you by Bridge Bio Work can be a little weird. I've had plenty of those moments early in my career, and honestly, even later I remember stretches where I wasn't totally sure what the next step was supposed to be. And that's the thing. Work isn't always a straight line. And that's where LinkedIn comes in. LinkedIn helps you tap into ideas and insights from people who've been where you are, connect with others in your field, grow your network, and access tools that can actually help you find the right next step. Whether you're just getting started thinking about a change or trying to accelerate where you are, LinkedIn is built to support you at every stage because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit LinkedIn.com Hibt to learn more. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Chae Wang, co founder of Boxed and let's bring in our next caller.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

[D]

My name is Eli Mash. I am a co founder of a coffee brand called My Makor Coffee M A K O R. We are an organic coffee brand and what we specialize is in helping with chronic inflammation. So our main product is 93% coffee and then we have a blend of organic cacao and organic spices that people can get every Day within their blend.

[A]

Nice. Well, thanks for calling in, Eli. So it's coffee and you mix it with herbs and spices that are anti inflammatory. So you mentioned cacao. What else do you put in there?

[D]

Yeah, we mix it with a few other ones. So we have organic turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon. Nice Chaga mushroom, cayenne pepper and then some ginger.

[A]

I love that. And I love that you said Ceylon cinnamon because I know this Saigon cinnamon from Vietnam doesn't have the same anti inflammatory effects as the Ceylon cinnamon.

[D]

Oh yeah, we definitely, when we were doing this blend, I mean when I started this, I had put turmeric in my coffee for like a decade.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And nobody really enjoyed tasting about me.

[A]

Yeah, it's bitter.

[D]

So I was looking for some other ones that could taste well but also have other properties.

[A]

No, it's really interesting because I'm super into this stuff. I mean when I get a cold I grate some fresh turmeric and ginger and garlic and put in cayenne pepper, black pepper, lemon juice, honey and hot water. And it knocks it out every time. Almost every time. If I do it right when it's starting. A really cool idea. How did you come up with it?

[D]

So like I said, I'd have been putting turmeric in my coffee for quite some time. My parents are holistic folks. I grew up in a, in a family of people who really thought of whole food as nutrition. So I had thought, hey, this is something I do every day. How else can people use spices they don't get normally? And how can they actually do it in a way they're not going to forget about? You forget about your multivitamins, you forget about other things. What can we do to help people every single day and something they won't forget about. And coffee's a good way.

[A]

I love this idea. It's really cool. So you start and is this your full time job now? Is this what you're focused on?

[D]

Oh, I wish. I have three kids, I have three little girls in my family. So as we're raising them and as I'm building the business, I have a full time job in software sales as well. So this is really nice. Weekends and we have a co manufacturer that can do all the activities that I don't have time to do right now.

[A]

And you're selling on your website entirely right now. Right.

[D]

So actually we've been selling on our website for a little over a year now and we are in a local store in Minneapolis with 11 stores and we're recently got into another one with 30 stores. So we'll be in about 40 doors by the end. By middle of this year.

[A]

Wow, nice. And, and I'm looking at your bag. Is it clear? Does it make it clear right up front what this is and why this is different?

[D]

You know, we could do a better job of that, I think. I mean, we have the ingredients. Think of like the RX bar. Right? We have the ingredients all on the front.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

On our website, we do, you know, a much better job. But that is one of the challenges definitely, when you're on the retail shelf

[A]

explaining things quickly and how are you doing in sales?

[D]

So I think we're doing pretty well. So we run a subscription business and purchase one time business. We have about 300 people who subscribe every month. This year we're on track to do between 200,000 and $300,000 with 95% of it being online.

[A]

Okay, and what is your question for us? What's your challenge?

[D]

Oh, so yeah, I have many, I think, but the question I have for you guys and, and is around, you know, when we have this blend, what happens with these spices? They're finer ingredients. Right. So when people are going in and they're brewing the coffee, you know, like a cow can even melt a little bit. And what it does is it tends to brew slower. So when you get to like that six cups, if you don't, you know, if you're not careful with the right filters, it can overflow. And if it overflows, people never come back. Right. So we're trying to balance this really healthy coffee and having it with enough ingredients that actually helps and adds benefits at the same time. Being able to have this more of a general population where you don't need to think about that at all.

[A]

So it doesn't. It's designed to be brewed how, how

[D]

you can brew it as any, as a normal coffee, you know, French Press, Keurig, Chemex and a regular coffee maker. But when you do the regular coffee maker, if you get above six cups, it can overflow if you're not using the right. The right.

[B]

The right.

[A]

I want to bring chain in, Chef. Interesting. I don't. Are you coffee drinker?

[B]

I am. I've dialed it back a little bit, but I like this because this gives me an excuse to drink more. For sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, to your exact question, it reminds me, I'm not saying this is the right answer, but it reminds me of an investor of ours that asked me, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy. And you know that in order for the blend to be to your standard, Eli, you know, it needs to be a certain degree of the blend, but actually for it to have big uses, like six plus cups. Hello offices that you might need to modify kind of the formula a little bit. That is a gut, real decision that you'll have to make yourself, that you'll have to live with as an entrepreneur and as kind of the, as, as the parent of this brand. This is basically your fourth child, Eli. But from my opinion, you probably could modify it for that kind of bigger brew. Because I see coffee offices being big, a big distribution point for this product. The reason why I say that is I used to always laugh like when we had like people drinking Gatorade or like, you know, like vitamin water in the office. I'm like, oh wow, it's a real workout answering these emails, you know, you better hydrate. But the reality is like we're on the office and we want to do a little bit of good to our bodies. So I can see like the button in front of you saying, do you want the regular coffee or the anti inflammatory one? I could see a lot of people pushing that other button. Yeah. So that's why I think it could be a big distribution point that would get them to then say in my home. I quite like that coffee brand. What was it called again? Maybe I'll sign up for my house as well.

[D]

That's right.

[A]

You know, I have a question for you about the. Cause it sounds like, you know, you want to scale up. But part of the challenge is that if people brew it and it just overflows, they're not going to go back to it. So a couple questions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Coffee, you extract the flavor based on the. In part based on the grind. Right. If it's super fine espresso, if it's, if it's a grittier grind, if a less fine grind, it's a drip machine, whatever it might be, or a percolator. Can you. I'm assuming that with the other ingredients, right, the turmeric and the cinnamon, the ginger, it's powderized and so that also helps with the extraction. But is there a way to have tiny grinds, like freeze dried grinds that are slightly bigger that still still bring out that same extraction of nutrients that you want people to ingest?

[D]

It's a really good question. When we look at suppliers that have all the certifications we need, we haven't been able to find that yet. At our size and scale, we'd have to do all that grinding ourselves, which takes a lot of time. It's definitely a conversation though, to be had and be thought through for sure.

[A]

If you grind cinnamon sticks to slightly bigger pieces, does it extract the same way? Do you get the same flavor?

[D]

You will get less of it.

[B]

It seems like that's quite a challenge. But with challenges come sustainable moats. If you're able to have that proprietary grind, that could be really interesting because anyone who's going to copy this, and there will be people that copy this, will have to figure out and walk through the same difficult steps that you'll walk through.

[D]

Oh, you know, it is interesting, right. Because you can, you know, to your guys point, there's a lot of different thoughts and things I'm thinking about all the time. And then it's also around storytelling. Right. And maybe the bug is actually a feature too. Now Che, to your point, it can't go in offices that way unless you're using a French press or a Keurig or whatnot. But how much do you want to keep your community right. And grow with that feature you have versus tier point changing. I think you've answered the question several ways, but that's how I think through this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I wonder whether you can try something and you might be doing it. I don't see it on the package, but literally just say best brewed in a French press. I know most people don't. They probably use drip machines. But while you're trying to formulate something that would. Because down the road you want this to be in K cups. Right. And that's a technology challenge, which I think is probably a challenge you will figure out how to solve whether it's freeze dry using freeze dried ginger and turmeric that you can then grind to the same, you know, size as the coffee, you know, that enable the same extraction or whatever it is. But in the meantime, I wonder if it, if you do something like that, you know, best brood and French pressure pour over.

[B]

Yeah. Could it be different formats to that point? Like meaning that a different formulation for larger coffee machines, like drip coffee machines. And it seems like you're very transparent with the ingredients as well. So it's like, you know, the real hardcore users that are like give me all the anti inflammation I can get. Well, we can't really offer that experience in a drip machine. And those folks will naturally, because they're hardcore about it, they will naturally gravitate towards the pour over or the other kind of ways of making that coffee. You know, that could be an avenue to explore.

[D]

I actually don't know why I haven't thought about that. It's a really good idea.

[B]

That's why you're here, Eli.

[D]

That's why when you think about the, the office space itself, you're right. You know, it does work in a, in a drip machine, up to four or five cups, which is fine for most. Right. But if you go to the office, you need 30 cups. Right. And in that case, you're right. Maybe it is just a less potent one that allows it to go through. That's a very interesting point.

[B]

And you know what, like, while we're riffing here, like, office coffee is like a knife fight of an industry. Everyone wants to sell coffee to offices because they become like annuities. Like, you know, once you're in there, everyone's happy. The fastest way for team members to burn down the office is to say we're out of coffee or the coffee machine is broken. So once you're in there, you're in there and the office manager does not want to mess with it. And so I wonder, there might be some really fast scalable ways for you to get real distribution through that channel. Because if you go to some of these bigger ones and you're like, hey, here's an innovation that we think will resonate with your offices. They might say, great, because we're done with just selling regular coffee. Like, we're looking for innovation in coffee.

[A]

Do you know? You know what? Just, I just had a thought. We did an episode recently on Justin's nut butter, which became a, you know, sold to Hormel for almost $300 million. And, and that was a peanut butter brand. And it wasn't, nothing was happening. It wasn't popping off the shelves. You know, it was, it was another peanut butter brand and people weren't noticing it. What changed the innovation that, that really helped that brand blow up was do you know what I'm talking about?

[B]

I know, I think I know what you're talking about, guy.

[A]

The pouches.

[B]

Yeah, the pouches.

[A]

They put peanut butter in a single use pouch where you could bring on a bike ride or a hike. And that is what completely turned that brand around. And I'm looking at this product, I'm thinking, well, could you do something in addition to what you're making? The beans, the whole beans and the grind, like single serve freeze dried coffee pack that also has, let's say 10% of it is the freeze dried herbs and spices in there. That is an instant version of this. A single use Instant version of this for people to take on the go camping, et cetera. See if people respond to that. Just an idea, but I'm just thinking about Justin's nut butter in the pouches.

[B]

Yeah, guys, sorry. I was smiling the entire time you were talking about Justin's. Because I remember being in line at Whole Foods and seeing pouched peanut butter. I'm like, okay. Consumer packaged goods has really jumped the shark. Who has thought, you know, but like months later, I was on a hike at a retreat and I was starving and someone had these pouches. I was like, okay, give me one of those pouches. Give me one of those pouches. And I was like, this is brilliant. So it doesn't shock me.

[D]

It's like a very good way to trial things as well.

[A]

It's a good way to trial things, to let people taste the, you know, this. And it's anti inflammatory and so anyway, just some thoughts. It's very cool. I think you have an opportunity to, I mean, you know, to scale this, you got to make it frictionless. And if you can figure it out, which I think you could, that could be a game changer.

[D]

Appreciate that.

[B]

Eli, if I'm walking through Whole Foods and I see pouches of your coffee, I don't know where you got the idea.

[A]

You're going to buy it. You're going to buy thousands of buy. Yeah.

[B]

And we'll expect a commission check for this idea. Eli.

[D]

Oh, you guys are on the list. You're on the list of commission, commission,

[A]

lifetime supply of my core coffee. Eli, thanks so much for calling in my core coffee. Good luck.

[D]

Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate your time.

[A]

Thank you. Che, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question that I ask all of our guests who come back on the show, which is here we go. If you could take all the things that you've learned now as a super experienced entrepreneur, you've been through highs and lows and you scaled a company to unimaginable heights. And you could go back to you when you started out in 2013 and say, hey, Che, here's what you need to know. What would you say?

[B]

I would tell myself that it's a life. You chose to be an entrepreneur and the reward is the journey. And I know that sounds a bit cliche, but time and time and again, you know what we experienced today, guy? Every entrepreneur experiences the same thing. It's problem after problem. If we had another two hours, these folks today could have brought on another 20 challenges that they had this morning. And it gets tough, it gets lonely, it gets stressful. But as I've walked the path for now, almost two decades, I. I enjoy it. I think you're going to find me hopefully back on the show when I'm 75 with a new company, you know, because I think solving problems and my thing is, is affecting people in a good way and helping people in a good way as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if we took that time machine, I would say, listen, you're gonna have ups, you're gonna have downs, but enjoy the ride because it's gonna be worth it. And I genuinely feel that way today.

[A]

That's great advice. That's Box co founder Che Huang. Che, thanks so much for joining me today.

[B]

Thanks, guy.

[A]

And by the way, if you haven't heard Che's original How I Built this episode, you've gotta go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the show notes. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[B]

I remember I was driving home from a meeting in New York and one of the folks that quit his six figure paying job to join the dream and sit in my garage called and said, dude, I refreshed the page over and over. It's not broken. We got zero orders today.

[A]

Oh wow.

[B]

This dropped down to 02 days in a row. And he was like, dude, I risked my livelihood to do this. Are you sure this is still going to work?

[A]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Rommel Wood with music composed by Ramtina Rabloui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Chris Masini, me, Kerry Thompson, Katherine Cipher, Neva Grant, Noor Gill, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the vice line right here on how I built this lab.