Advice Line with Chris Ruder of Spikeball

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz – Episode: Advice Line with Chris Reuter of Spikeball

Release Date: November 21, 2024

Overview

In this engaging episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz, accompanied by guest Chris Reuter, founder and CEO of Spikeball, delves into the Advice Line segment. This segment is dedicated to addressing real-time business challenges faced by entrepreneurs. Throughout the episode, Raz and Reuter provide insightful guidance to three distinct callers, each navigating unique hurdles in their respective ventures. The discussions span topics from scaling a parkour gym and marketing niche products to overcoming business setbacks and fostering community engagement.

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1. Scaling a Parkour Gym: Freedom in Motion with Jimmy Davidson

Caller Profile:

• Name: Jimmy Davidson
• Location: Riverside, Southern California
• Business: Founder of Freedom in Motion, a chain of parkour gyms teaching kids, teens, and adults.

Challenge: Jimmy seeks advice on how to invest in passionate employees to scale his business from three to potentially a $100 million enterprise. Specifically, he is looking for strategies to nurture talent and effectively recruit skilled individuals across multiple locations.

Discussion Highlights:

• Identifying Passionate Employees:

  • Chris Reuter emphasizes the importance of hiring individuals who are genuinely passionate about parkour and can embody the company’s mission. He suggests, “is it safe to assume a decent amount of your early employees were already into parkour or kind of knew a decent amount about this before you showed up?” ([14:26]).

• Developing Talent from Within:

  • Guy Raz draws parallels with Chick-fil-A’s internal talent development, advising Jimmy to create a system that identifies and nurtures great employees, providing them with clear growth paths and incentives. Raz states, “identify great people, give them a clear path to succeed and to grow, and incentivize them so as they help you grow, they benefit as well” ([17:47]).

• Documentation and Standardization:

  • Chris Reuter recommends documenting successful employee traits and processes to ensure consistency across all locations. “The more you can document what's working, I think the better off you'll be” ([20:17]).

Notable Quote:

"Identify great people, give them a clear path to succeed and to grow, and incentivize them so as they help you grow, they benefit as well." – Guy Raz ([17:47])

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2. Marketing Niche Running Products: Pen and Paces with Cindy Chin Smith

Caller Profile:

• Name: Cindy Chin Smith
• Location: Boston, Massachusetts
• Business: Founder of Pen and Paces, known for the Yell My Name Bib kit for marathon runners.

Challenge: Cindy seeks strategies to market her fun and uplifting race day products beyond her initial niche, aiming to expand into broader markets like fashionable running accessories.

Discussion Highlights:

• Building Brand Presence:

  • Chris Reuter advises Cindy to focus on building a strong brand presence, similar to how Spikeball gained organic traction before retailers approached them. “From what I understand, that's not normal. But man, did it work for us” ([35:40]).

• Engaging with the Community:

  • Guy Raz emphasizes the importance of connecting with the running community through local stores and face-to-face interactions. “If one of these store owners locally would be willing to meet with you just to see you and to understand your passion” ([36:17]).

• Expanding Product Lines:

  • Chris Reuter suggests exploring merchandise collaborations and leveraging the fashion aspect of running gear to reach a wider audience. “Is there a fashion designer you could work with that could learn your vibe, your brand, everything?” ([53:58]).

Notable Quote:

“Build the brand and they will come.” – Chris Reuter ([35:44])

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3. Overcoming Business Setbacks: Station Surf Shop with Nigel Lewis

Caller Profile:

• Name: Nigel Lewis
• Location: Rockaway Beach, New York
• Business: Founder of Station Surf Shop, offering surfboard rentals, sales, and unique surfboard lockers.

Challenge: Nigel grapples with the aftermath of closing his successful surf shop due to financial strains stemming from partner buyouts. He seeks guidance on overcoming loss, maintaining motivation, and navigating financial recovery to reopen his business independently.

Discussion Highlights:

• Mindset and Resilience:

  • Guy Raz encourages Nigel to view his setbacks as learning opportunities, urging him to “spend time doing a self critique in a very constructive way” and use his experiences to inform his next steps. “Use that seven years… as a gift that you were given this gift to know what not to do” ([46:37]).

• Leveraging Community Support:

  • Chris Reuter highlights the power of community backing and suggests involving loyal customers and supporters as stakeholders or investors. “How can you leverage this group of people that want you to come back?” ([49:04]).

• Financial Strategies:

  • Guy Raz recommends exploring crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter and seeking private investors within the community. “Is there a Kickstarter or something that you get started, or is it a private conversation with a few of these folks that become shareholders?” ([49:44]).

• Expanding Revenue Streams:

  • Chris Reuter advises Nigel to consider expanding into merchandise and apparel, tapping into the broader fashion appeal of surf culture. “Is there a fashion designer you could work with that could learn your vibe, your brand, everything?” ([53:58]).

Notable Quote:

“Think about what you learned. Really spend time doing a self critique in a very constructive way. Write down the things that you don't want to do again.” – Guy Raz ([46:37])

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Throughout the episode, both Guy Raz and Chris Reuter provide actionable advice tailored to each caller’s unique business challenges. The overarching themes emphasize the importance of community engagement, internal talent development, brand building, and strategic financial planning. Notably, the discussions underscore the significance of resilience and adaptability in the entrepreneurial journey.

Final Notable Quote:

“Spend less, save more.” – Chris Reuter ([55:35])

For Listeners: If you're navigating similar challenges in your entrepreneurial journey, this episode offers valuable insights and strategies drawn from experienced leaders in the industry. Whether you're scaling a business, marketing niche products, or overcoming setbacks, the advice shared here can help steer your venture toward success.

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Listen to the full episode on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

WonderYPlus subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join WonderyPlus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This episode is brought to you by American Express. In today's ever changing landscape, business owners like you are constantly adapting to new challenges you're always on, relying on your instincts while seeking partners and solutions to help flex and grow. That's where the American Express Business Platinum Card comes in. It works just as hard as you do to help you pursue your passions. With its world class business and travel benefits, you can get more for your business wherever it takes you. Like earning five times membership reward points on flights and prepaid hotels booked on amextravel.com, so that going the extra mile for your business is even more rewarding. And with complimentary access to more than 1400 airport lounges worldwide, including the Centurion Lounge, you can keep your business running while you're on the go. See how the Amex Business Platinum Card gives business owners like you the tools and rewards to do more of what you love. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] AmExBusiness you know what I love most about listening on Audible? It lets your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. There's more to imagine when you listen. I've recently been listening to Table for Two by Amor Toles, an incredible collection of short stories and a novella that takes us back to a character from his book Rules of Civility. And as an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com built or text built to 500500 that's audible.combilt or text bilt to 500500 to try audible free for 30 days audible.combilt Ah, and here we have travelers in their natural habitat enjoying guaranteed.

[Chris Reuter]

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[Guy Raz]

Terms apply.

[Chris Reuter]

Learn [e-mail] with Amex.

[Guy Raz]

This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform featuring email, SMS reviews and more. This Black Friday Cyber Monday, make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at K L A v I y o.com bfcm hello and welcome to the advice line on How I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a fortune former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Chris Reuter, the founder and CEO of Spikeball. Chris, welcome back to the show.

[Chris Reuter]

Thanks so much. Happy to be here.

[Guy Raz]

Chris, you were first on How I built this back in 2023 and you told us all about how you turned Spikeball into a brand and how you helped turn the sport of round net into a professional sport. And by the way, if you haven't heard that episode with Chris and Spike Ball, we'll put a link in the show description. And I guess we should explain to people who haven't heard the episode that Spikeball is basically. And you guys listening have seen it. If you're at the beach or at a lake or something or a park, it's basically four people standing around what looks like a little trampoline and spiking a ball into that trampoline. And it's like sort of. How do you describe it? It's like volleyball meets the one line.

[Chris Reuter]

I like to use is a volleyball in four square had a baby.

[Guy Raz]

Oh yeah, that's it. That was it.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah. It's essentially identical to 2 on 2 volleyball. Rather than hitting a ball over the net, you're spiking a ball off a net that looks a lot like a.

[Guy Raz]

Trampoline Chris, you painstakingly built this brand into a mainstream game, starting with PE Teachers, ultimate Frisbee players, Christian youth groups. You weren't connected to any of these groups. You just found that that's where the product was resonating. How did that happen? I mean, and when that happened, how did you lean into those. Into those groups?

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, when the first few years of the business, you could only buy a Spikeball on Spikeball.com.

Right.

And we had the benefit of I was able to communicate literally, with 100% of our customers. I could email them and ask questions. And nearly every single customer I replied saying, hey, thanks for buying spikeball. I'm gonna mail it tonight or tomorrow. It should show up in a few. By the way, if you don't mind me asking, how did you hear about it? And that's where I heard a lot of people said, oh, I'm a PE Teacher, and I'm always looking for new games, and new games are ways to engage kids that normally don't engage. Or I'd hear from people saying, oh, I was at an ultimate tournament and I saw some people playing there, or I'm a camp director at a Christian camp or something along those lines. But I asked the question enough times over the years where I was able to identify these themes in these buckets, you know, and I also thought that, you know, when I launched, I was like, yeah, volleyball players are going to love this game. And that was just what I thought. They wound up hating it. But it was these groups that I never would have thought of in a million years that loved it. And once I did identify those, then I started, you know, getting to know them. Some of them, I'd say, hey, would you mind? Can we get on a call? Like, you know, I've never heard of this thing called Young Life. Like, what is it? And can we. Can I learn from you? And, oh, by the way, do you have any other friends in that community that I can maybe send a free setter to? So that free product was really critical in the early days of spreading the word.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And Young Life is a massive Christian youth group, which. And again, you weren't involved with this. It's not like something you came up. It just kind of came to you. I know that since we've talked, and actually around the time we talked, you were introducing new products like paddles, which I think are interchangeable with pickleball. Right. They're paddles that you can use to play spike ball, but you can also use them to play pickleball.

[Chris Reuter]

They're designed for more casual play.

Yeah.

They're not like, if you're a hardcore pickleball player, you're going to get a real paddle, of course. But, yeah, they're very versatile. And I was just at one of our tournaments this last weekend and watched some of our top players ever just kind of playing off on the side with paddles and laughing and diving, and we're just trying to find new, fun ways to use our existing stuff.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Chris, I think it's probably time that we take in our first call. What do you think?

[Chris Reuter]

Let's do it.

[Guy Raz]

Let's do it. Okay. Hello, caller. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a tiny bit about your business.

[Chris Reuter]

Hi, Chris and Guy. My name is Jimmy Davidson. I'm calling in from Riverside in Southern California. I'm the founder of Freedom in Motion. We're a chain of parkour gyms where we teach kids, teens, and adults the sport of parkour here in our indoor obstacle course Gyms.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Parkour. Like people dancing off walls and jumping and swinging. And this is like gymnastics meets, like, urban landscape.

[Chris Reuter]

It's like Spider man without the webs. It's like skateboarding without the skateboard. We actually try to distance ourselves from gymnastics pretty heavily, so we're not gymnastics at all. But, you know, we take the outdoor environment, the walls, the railings, the parking curbs, and our mission is to transform all of that into a playground.

[Guy Raz]

So, cool. So you. And you're based in Riverside, and how many gyms do you have?

[Chris Reuter]

We have three gyms currently. One in Murrieta, California, Riverside, California, and Loma Linda, which is one of the blue zone cities. So that's kind of a cool mix right there.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Chris Reuter]

And we intend on opening many more gyms. So hopefully. I actually live in Oakland, despite my gyms being down there, California. And I hope to have a gym up here soon, too.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so, Jimmy, tell me how this started. I mean, it's a great idea. I think of, like, when my kids were little, we used to take them to, like, Gymboree and, you know, and like, rock climbing walls, which are awesome. But I'd never heard of a parkour gym. How did you get this idea?

[Chris Reuter]

So in high school, when I had first discovered parkour, this is right around when YouTube kind of first came out, so found parkour through that. In high school, we had a parkour club, and it became the largest club on campus at 150 kids. So imagine like a wave of 150 kids coming to climb all over your stuff. It was a lot of fun.

[Guy Raz]

You would just go to like a park or you would just go to anywhere. An outdoor space.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah. Like the urban architecture in different areas provides different opportunities for movement and play. And you can work on balance on those handrails or you can work on climbing over walls, on these walls over here. And so, and here's kind of how we got to me opening a gym. It got to the point where I was teaching kids. Like parents were paying me to coach their kids one on one. And I would take them to just some parks outside. And you probably can imagine that sometimes the local city government didn't like us climbing all over their city hall architecture in the front. So I had a meeting with the mayor at that time. This is when I was 19, I'm 31 now, and I had this adorable presentation on like, here's parkour. You know, I like printed stuff out of my mom's computer and was like, let's have a parkour park, just like a skate park. And the mayor at the time was like, I don't know what parkour is. Never heard of it. Sounds like a liability nightmare. You're best off opening up in the private sector. So after I went and googled what does private sector mean, I figured out we have to open up our own gym. And you know, then. And I'm 19, so like, then it was a whole hurdle of like business landlords, like taking me seriously as a 19 year old. They. And also not knowing what parkour was. How do we find the money for that? Like, it was a whole challenge. But in 2014, by the time I was 21, we were able to open our first gym in Myriada.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. How did you finance that?

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, a few ways. So I had been coaching a lot of kids, doing a lot of private lessons and things. So I had a, you know, a few thousand dollars from that. I had a job on the side. A few thousand dollars from that. We had a couple people give us some money. We had an original investor give us some money. Our business had one iteration and then it failed and then we reopened. So there's a little bit of play and how the financing worked out there. But yeah, so a few sources and we were very scrappy with it.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. So then you are. You open this gym and describe for me what it looks. Actually, you know what, I'm on your website now, so I can see it. Freedom in motion. I see all kinds of bars to hang off and padded things to jump onto and off of and ramps and.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, it's like a 3D obstacle course. We have walls. We have different platforms, and it's not like ninja warrior, where ninja warrior has, like, bungee cords and weird rotating things. Parkour is actually a martial art.

[Guy Raz]

Right.

[Chris Reuter]

It's the martial art of movement, just not fighting. So our indoor gyms simulate the outside architecture of walls and rails and things to jump and land on. Um, and so our indoor parkour course just has all sorts of shapes and heights and things for us, our coaches, to train our students the whole variety of movements that come with parkour.

[Guy Raz]

Hmm. That's so cool. And before I forget, what's your question that you brought for us today?

[Chris Reuter]

Absolutely. So our Parkour gyms thrive on a super passionate team. We need these passionate people to inspire a passion for movement and for play within our students. We have three gyms. Now, I personally plan on growing this to $100 million company with a lot of gyms. So my question is, how can I invest in my most passionate employees to grow their skills? And how do I scale the recruitment of passionate and skilled people as we continue to open more parkour gym locations?

[Guy Raz]

All right, I've got some thoughts. I want to turn it over to Chris Reuter of Spikeball. Chris, thoughts? Questions for Jimmy?

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, number one. Congrats, Jimmy. This is such a cool concept. The fact that you don't have one, you've got three locations, like, that's incredible. So you're starting to scale. You're finding what's working, what's not. I love that you didn't give up after the first one didn't quite work. You've got that grit, which is absolutely required. And most importantly, you're getting kids moving and being social and together. That's, you know, at Spikeball, that's something we're trying to do as well. But I applaud anybody that is doing that. So that's. That's so cool. On the topic of how to engage employees, is it safe to assume a decent amount of your early employees were already into parkour or kind of knew a decent amount about this before you showed up?

Yeah, yeah. And you're totally right to clarify that, I opened the gym with a handful of my best friends, honestly. And so it's been a decade since we opened. So many of those friends have, like, trickled off. A lot of those friends. We. None of us knew what we were doing. Right. So we all had, like, giant expectations of that we would be millionaires in. In six months or Less. And when that didn't come to fruition, you know, like a lot of them just aren't around anymore. So it's like as we grow and we get multiple locations, I need managers who get the passion that we want to transform kids lives, that they see the world as a playground but also they have the technical chops to like manage multi locations, run HR and train like integrity and a culture of high performance into the coaches below them. Like it's on that higher end that it can be tricky like finding that skill, passion, balance.

[Guy Raz]

Jimmy, do you, you're CEO of this, right? Of the business, correct?

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And so. And you've got three locations and I imagine that probably a significant number of your trainers are college aged, is that fair to say?

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, 20 year olds. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And so right now there's, I mean decent turnover. Maybe they might work for you for a year or two at most.

[Chris Reuter]

It's like half and half. Some of them, yes. They come in, work for a while and then leave and then the most passionate ones stick around for four, five, 10 years.

[Guy Raz]

And the question is, how do you invest in those folks to really help them help you? There's a book, I mean and some people might kind of recoil when I say it, but it's the most successful quick service restaurant in the world in terms of the yield sales per square foot is Chick Fil A. They beat everybody Shake Shack in n out McDonald's even though they don't have as many locations. A typical Chick Fil a does about $8 million in revenues. Massive. And the founder, Truett Cathy wrote a book many years ago, I think it's called Eat More Chicken. What's interesting about their approach, forget about everything else that you might think about. Chick Fil A, they have a system that basically develops talent from within. So if you go and work there as a checkout clerk and you say, hey, I want to manage the store, they will help you get there. Or you say I want to own one of these one day. They have a very, very specific program that develops talent from within and grows people from within. In N Out Burger does a similar thing. It's worth looking at even though you're doing a different kind of business because you're so young, right. Still as a CEO and you're still trying to figure out the model here. But basically you need to create a system that identifies those people and then starts to give them incentives to stay so equity in the business, some kind of ownership as you grow, incentives to help you grow. So if you hit five locations or 10 locations, they get another point of, you know, whatever it might be that creates value for them over time, you know, and I think that for you, you want to really read widely about what other people have done and how they've done it to give you a framework. Because ultimately you're going to have to go to lawyers and other people to help you actually, you know, codify this. But it's. But the principles around it are not that complicated. It's identify great people, give them a clear path to succeed and to grow, and incentivize them so as they help you grow, they benefit as well.

[Chris Reuter]

Okay. And I think you're spot on. Get like essentially an internal leadership university baked into our back end of the parkour business. Yeah, I think that's awesome. I think the world of parkour could really benefit from having like a baked and kind of professional incubator.

Jimmy, as you, as you think about Your march to 100 million, and I love that you've got that goal. Is it a franchise model? You're thinking, is it corporate owned? Or how do you think about these future locations?

Yeah, so I am right before kind of really needing to pick that path. Right. Like I see Starbucks as the corporate locations where as I see, you know, Chick Fil A, you know, lets an owner own a single location. Like you just said, guy. And there's a few different ways to splice it up. I don't know yet. Ideally we do it all in corporate because it's working with kids. So I want to really make sure that it's safe and effective and has that culture. The culture is so vital because if a parent walks into the gym and the culture is even just a little off, it doesn't work at all. So I guess my anxiety there is if we have franchises, I don't have a total control over that.

Yeah, Chick Fil A has made it work. Right. There's a million franchises that have done it. I understand the sensitivity around being with kids. So if I were in your shoes, I would study as many businesses that have physical locations, multi location and work with kids, whether that's a nursery school or jump zones or the inflatable house places or whatever, like copy their playbook. And I also love, Jimmy, that you mentioned the like employee university thing. Like I think of McDonald's, you know, their hamburger university. So what is your version of that? And I think step one is it sounds like you've already started documenting everything that's working. If you think of that star employee right now, what is it? That makes she or he great. Write that down. That is that Persona you want to try and multiply throughout your three locations and your fourth, fifth, six, then the more you can define that playbook, right?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Chris Reuter]

The more you can document what's working, I think the better off you'll be.

Okay.

[Guy Raz]

Jimmy Davidson, Freedom in Motion Gym. Good luck, man. Congrats.

[Chris Reuter]

All right, Chris. Guy, I really appreciate it. And Guy, when I hit 100 million, I have a straight on goal that coming back as a come back.

[Guy Raz]

We're gonna have you back. Okay. Thanks, Shami. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I built this Lab. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace can help any business owner craft a strong web presence and sell anything from products to content to time, all in one place, all on your terms. With Squarespace Blueprint, you can build a completely personalized website optimized for every device. With powerful SEO tools that help you grow the way you want, Squarespace makes checkout seamless for your customers, accepting credit cards, PayPal and Apple Pay, and in eligible countries, afterpay and Clearpay. And you can easily manage your clients and invoices from vetting leads to receiving payments in one streamlined, customizable workflow. So check out squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.combilt to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. If you've been listening to me for a while, you know that I'm really interested in health and fitness. And for the past year, the single biggest game changer for me has been a biowearable. Why is it a game changer? Well, because it's helped me figure out which foods leave me energized and which ones make me foggy and sluggish and even hungry. And that matters because it turns out 88% of us have suboptimal metabolic health. That's why I'm so excited about Lingo. It's a new bio wearable from Abbott that tracks your glucose in real time and gives personal insights and science backed recommendations to eat in a way that works for you. To see how your body responds to food and learn what you can do to improve your metabolism, try Lingo. It starts at $49 for a two week plan. No prescription needed for a limited time. Save 10% off your first order by using the code [e-mail] the Lingo Glucose system is for users 18 and older not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. For more information, please visit hellolingo.com us you know when you're shopping for like a new car or even a new bike, which I was shopping for recently, and you want to find one with all the right features, something that fits exactly what you need? Well, that's the way it feels today, trying to find the right AI tools for your business. You want to get it right, but it's not always clear which tools are actually going to help. Grammarly is designed to fit your business's unique needs and works right away to help contribute to your overall success. Grammarly works effortlessly with the apps I already use every single day and it saves me so much time while I'm writing. With its super helpful AI prompts, Grammarly works where you work from docs to messages to emails, integrating seamlessly across 500,000 apps and websites. No cutting, no pasting, no context switching. Join 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to work faster and hit their goals while keeping their data Secure. Go to Grammarly.comenterprise to learn more Grammarly Enterprise Ready AI welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Chris Reuter. He's the founder of the outdoor sports game Spikeball. What do you say, Chris? Should we take another call?

[Chris Reuter]

We'd love it.

[Guy Raz]

Hello caller. Welcome to the advice line on how I built this Urn with me, Chris Reuter. Please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Hi Guy. Hi Chris. Thanks for having me today. My name is Cindy Chin Smith. I'm calling in from the Boston, Massachusetts area. I am the founder of Pen and Paces. We create cheerful and uplifting products for runners and we are best known for our Yell My Name Bib kit, which allows marathoners to put their name on their shirts so they can encourage spectators to yell their name on the race course.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. Okay, so Cindy, thank you for calling in. So basically it's a kit that you can add to the bib. And the bib is like when you run a marathon, there's rules. You wear the bib that they give you, but you are allowed to attach your name to the bib.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yes, exactly. As long as it doesn't cover the number of the official bib. You can put it on top or on the back of your shirt or.

[Guy Raz]

On your shorts, which I guess I imagine is super meaningful when you're like, mile 18 and you're just dying and someone's like, go, Cindy. Just a random person because they see your name. Absolutely, absolutely.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

It's the best kind of motivator and the morale booster at the end.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Have you been in that situation yourself?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, I actually ran my fifth marathon last year in Chicago.

[Guy Raz]

Nice.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

And absolutely. The crowds on the major marathons are electric. And when they yell your name, it's like nothing else.

[Guy Raz]

How did you get into this business? Have you been in apparel or in sports? What's your story?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

No. Yeah, I actually picked up running as an outlet to deal with stress and burnout while working in the Bay Area in tech. Needed something to get outside and not be in my computer screen. And I fell in love with the sport and the community, so much so that I wanted to create a business out of it to uplift and support other runners.

[Guy Raz]

Where were you working in tech?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

I worked at Google for a couple years and then startups in fintech since then.

[Guy Raz]

And so you completely left that behind and said, you know what, I'm going to start this running gear brand that has positive messages that you can basically attach or wear or whatever.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Exactly. I had my son two years ago, and that's when, you know, I had the choice of, you know, starting my own business or going back to, you know, just a corporate job. But, you know, it was kind of a you only live once kind of thing. So I wanted to take this opportunity to see what I can do with this business.

[Guy Raz]

And what. So besides the name, like, you can pin your name to your bib, what else? What other things do you guys sell?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, so our kind of next most popular line is shoe bags because, you know, runners have these really expensive sneakers now. And so I have introduced a travel sneaker bag that is kind of more fun than traditional. Kind of, you know, just plastic bag that people put their sneakers in for travel.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Okay. And Cindy, what's your question for us today?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, so, you know, my initial product, the yell My name bib kit, is very, very niche even in the running community. You know, there's. It's only for like the major marath. So I'm looking to expand into other products like these shoe bags and other kind of race day travel kits. And so I want to make them just like, not plain and boring like running gear is currently. And so what advice would you have for me to market a product that's like fun and uplifting and the designs are their kind of main differentiator.

[Guy Raz]

All right, cool. I'm going to bring you in. Chris, you who has created a light up spikeball kit that enables people to play in the dark so you know a little bit about accessorizing things. Do you have any questions for Cindy before we tackle her?

[Chris Reuter]

Question number one. I wish this product was around years ago when I ran the Chicago Marathon, because if it were, maybe I would have broken the four hour mark, which was my goal. And I did not, unfortunately.

[Guy Raz]

You know what, we shouldn't laugh. Four hours. Super impressive.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Super impressive.

[Guy Raz]

Yes.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I'll take it. Number one. I love it. Can you share a bit on the sales mix? So is the vast majority of your sale the name tag? Is it the shoe bag or what's the general breakout there?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, I would say 95% is coming from the yell my name bib kit. And I introduced, you know, other products, but the main next category were these shoe bags, but it's not very big right now. It's about 5%.

[Chris Reuter]

Got it.

[Guy Raz]

And can you give us a sense of how have you broken $25,000 in sales?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, we have. And so we're seeing a lot of growth this year especially. We've grown year over year, 50% and then we're looking to grow a lot more in the future.

[Guy Raz]

And selling entirely direct to consumer.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Entirely direct to consumer. I've done a little bit of pop up shops, a little bit of wholesale, but mainly on my website, Instagram, and we started doing Amazon as well.

[Guy Raz]

And you're financing this whole thing yourself.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Exactly.

[Guy Raz]

And so presumably your budget is pretty tight. Right, because you can't spend tens of thousands of dollars or maybe even thousands of dollars on marketing.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, exactly. I want to keep it lean and I don't want to overspend. I want to do kind of spend wisely as well.

[Guy Raz]

But it sounds like the shoe bag is really where you see the growth.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, I do see there's potential there. And it's also a bigger market opportunity. Right. There's not a ton of marathoners out there who are running major marathons, but everybody has sho, like even non runners travel with sneakers and things like that. But I do see that there's an opportunity for demand and also for gifting.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I mean, this is actually not an uncommon problem. I say this in a focus group of one, namely me which is every time I pack and travel, I'm like, do I put my shoes this way? I don't want the bottom of my shoes touching my clothes. So how do I pack them? And I know people listening to this right now are picturing this because they're going through the same. You're packing your suitcase and you're like, I don't want the bottom of my shoes, that sticky gum or dirt on them to touch my clothing. So I'm going to angle them like this. But a shoe bag, a proper shoe bag, that would still give me room in my suitcase. That makes a lot of sense.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Absolutely. And the other trend that I'm trying to hop on is that their grocery bags are being banned from stores, and most people put them in grocery bags. But really to be more sustainable and kind of eco friendly, like a reusable travel sho bag, makes a lot of sense.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so Chris, as somebody who cultivated these niche groups, you know, found out who's buying it, church, youth groups, and you're like, well, let's lean into that. And PE teachers, let's lean into that. I mean, right now we're thinking about runners because Cindy's a runner, but I mean, there's got to be other folks you should be targeting.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, I mean, I would. I don't want to say go deep and wide, but I guess as you're still in the early days and exploring, I think that's. That's probably the route. So 1. How many marathon runners are there in the US let alone worldwide? But I'd say start in the US I'm assuming it's massive. I was just in Chicago recently and it was a few days after the marathon and seeing the amount of people walking around with branded gear. Yeah, it was even like four or five days after the race and people were still wearing it. I was seeing it everywhere. So just like you go to a concert and you have no problem spending $50 on a T shirt because it's this special event. I think, like, people are in a different frame of mind where on these events, especially when it's a massive thing like a marathon. So can you do more on site sales there or maybe go there and witness with a pen and a paper? Like, what other product ideas can you get? That would be my version of going deep. And then the wide is what other events have bibs or like the name kit? I think of mountain bike races, all.

[Guy Raz]

Triathlons, all kinds of things.

[Chris Reuter]

All that. Yeah. So is that the wide version? And with the shoe carrier, I Mean, my God, any place that has cleats, running shoes, whatever, can you make a different version for each sport? And I think as long as you're making something that, where you've identified a need and you're not like, oh, I think this could be cool, I'll just do it because I like it in my experience. Identify needs that other people have or a problem that you think you can solve and run straight in that direction.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I agree. I also think that, and Cindy, you probably already thought of this, but I do think that runners are a tribe, a really passionate tribe. As you know, you're a runner yourself. And I feel like to get to that tribe, you've got to be in the shops too. You've got to be able to get into those shops. And many of these shops are independently owned. The proprietor is in there. They're interested in showcasing things that are going to be interesting to their customers. And I would really. You're in Boston, I imagine they're amazing running stores there. Have you gone to any of them?

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yes, I've reached out to probably half of the running stores in the United States and you know, and there's been some good, good reception on some of my smaller products. But yeah, I guess the question would be, is like, you know, any kind of tips in getting into these stores that, you know, may not initially show interest.

[Chris Reuter]

We weren't in any stores for our first five years. 100% Spikeball.com for us, we were so focused on building the brand, building the community and building [e-mail] eventually all the stores called us. When Dick's Sporting Goods reached out and said, we'd like to carry your product, I thought it was a joke or somebody messing with me. Same thing when Walmart did it, when Target did it, and all sorts of these small mom and pop toy shops and sporting goods stores. So from what I understand, that's not normal. But man, did it work for us. Because I think if I would have called them in the early days, they would have said, what is this trampoline? Nobody knows what it is. And I think what resulted in them calling us, they saw this sort of cult like following. They saw this quirky thing that people were into it. It wasn't Chris Reuter trying to tell them the store that this was an amazing thing. There was all this outside validation on social media and elsewh proving that the world is into this. The more of that you can get, the easier it will be to get into stores.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Yeah, that makes sense. Sounds like build the brand and they will come.

[Guy Raz]

I also think there's value in seeing if you can just meet somebody face to face. If one of these store owners locally would be willing to meet with you just to see you and to understand your passion and that you're legit. You're a runner. You're not like some, you know, dilettante coming into this. This is your passion and this is a problem that you are solving for yourself and you believe for other runners. And I think there's a lot of value in just trying to go one star at a time in person, at least initially.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

I love that idea. I gotta try that for sure.

[Chris Reuter]

Absolutely.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Thank you, Cindy.

[Guy Raz]

The brand is called Pen and Paces. Thanks so much for calling in. Congrats.

[Cindy Chin Smith]

Thank you.

[Chris Reuter]

Thanks, Cindy.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. I love a great deal as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to crawl through a bed of hot coals just to save a few bucks. It has to be easy. So when Mint Mobile said it was easy to get wireless for $15 a month with the purchase of a three month plan, I called them on it. But it turns out it really is that easy to get wireless for 15 bucks a month. In fact, the longest part of the process was the time I spent on hold waiting to break up with my old provider. To get started, go to mintmobile.combilt there you'll see that right now all three month plans are only $15 a month, including the unlimited plan. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts to get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month. Go to mintmobile.combilt that's mintmobile.comb cut cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.combilt 45 dollars upfront payment required, equivalent to 15 dollars a month new customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 GB on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. C. Mint Mobile for details as a B2B marketer, you know how noisy the ad space can be if your message isn't targeted to the right audience, it just disappears into the noise with LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach the professionals who are more likely to find your ad relevant. LinkedIn's targeting capabilities allow you to filter by job title, industry, company and more and reach your customers in a respectful environment. You'll have direct access to and build relationships with decision makers. On a platform with a billion members, 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level executives, you'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B. In the technology space, LinkedIn generated two to five times higher return on ad spend than other social media platforms. And 79% of B2B content marketers said LinkedIn produces the best results for paid media. And we know this because we hear this from the founders who are on this show every single week. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com BuiltThis to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com Build this. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be, to be. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking calls with Chris Reuter, the founder of Spikeball. So, Chris, let's bring in our next caller.

[Chris Reuter]

Sounds great.

[Guy Raz]

Hello, welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

[Chris Reuter]

Hey, Guy. Hi, Chris. I hope you guys are both doing well. My name is Nigel Lewis and I'm calling from Rockaway Beach, New York. Currently, I'm the founder of Station Surf Shop. Started back in 2016 and we're a traditional surf shop catering to the New York City surfer. We sell surfboards, wetsuits, wax leashes, everything you would find at a normal surf shop. If you live there in Southern or Northern California or Hawaii, you would find here. You can take the subway to the beach here. So we do rentals like you would expect. We do a unique thing called surfboard lockers because a lot of people in New York have small apartments or husbands or wives that don't want surfboards in the apartment. But what I'm most proud of with the shop has been just the ability for people who kind of look like me to walk in and see someone that does traditionally look like what they would see behind the surf shop counter. So that's been what I'm most proud of and being able to facilitate that a little bit for this community.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Well, thank you for calling into the show. Nigel. All right, so Rockaway Beach Surf Shop sounds like an awesome community. Tell me, how long have you been surfing?

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, so I grew up surfing. I'm originally from Barbados. Been surfing since I was 10. And it's slightly different there because in Barbados it's a water lifestyle. So I'm actually very used to being in the ocean and swimming, diving, surfing, that type of stuff.

[Guy Raz]

And I always think of the Ramones when I think of Rockaway Beach.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, I think everyone does, actually.

[Guy Raz]

Everybody does. Yeah. I'm probably not the only one. And what's your question for us today?

[Chris Reuter]

So I started this business and brought in some partners to help me just kind of financially get it going. My background is pretty deep in the surf and, and skate world. I've worked for a lot of brands. I've been a sales rep and been into a lot of surf doors up and down the East Coast. That's what I did for work for quite a number of years. So I understand what that looks like. But I financially just, you know, I grew up pretty poor and kind of just grinded to make what I had. So when I opened the shop, we did pretty well. But my partners always seem to leave just because they have other interests that they're involved in and they're not committed to the grind. So my last partner left and I had to buy him out and get it done. But it put me into a spot where I unfortunately had to close the shop. I'm in the process now of reopening. We were lucky enough to secure a partnership with Paragon Sports in New York City in Union Square to do a pop up. Like, they liked what we're doing. They heard the story and they were like, hey, we'd love to give you a home until you figure it out, but this was a pretty important space for me and for the community and for all the organization that we supported. And it's gone. And it hit me very hard. And I have the drive to kind of get it going again. But I'm just starting over, you know, like financially trying to get the money back up. And this time I'm looking to do it with no partners. So how do you deal with loss? Our numbers were good and it didn't close due to lack of business. Being good. It's more just the amount of payout I had to do. I couldn't sustain it after giving out that much money. How do you deal with that to where you feel motivated, you know?

[Guy Raz]

So you had the store? Yes, the Station Surf Shop in Rockaway Beach. You Closed it. When did you close it?

[Chris Reuter]

In December.

[Guy Raz]

In December. Okay. And now you're trying to reopen it.

[Chris Reuter]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

And it was successful, and people loved it. And you had. You sold apparel and stuff. And I actually. I see you have an Instagram page up still, but now you're trying to figure out how to reopen, and your question is, how do you kind of plow through failure? So, first of all, I just. I really appreciate you calling because, you know, people call into the show with like, hey, how do I scale this? And how do I market this? And you're like, we failed, and how do I recover from that? And it's such a critical question because, you know, a lot of people think how I built this is about success. Oh, success. It's not. It's actually about setbacks, mistakes, and failures. And I say this over and over again because I think, think the best entrepreneurs, Chris Reuter is one of them, who's had many failures on his path to success. Without those failures, you don't learn.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah. A lot of big shows and media, you'll see, you'll only hear the positive. And, oh, our growth chart was nothing but up and to the right the entire time.

[Guy Raz]

That's B.S. that's B.S.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah. Yeah. So I could do a couple episodes of just the last couple years, what we've been going through, and holy smokes, is it. It's hard. And not everybody is cut out to be an entrepreneur. So I applaud you for giving a shot. And seemingly you're dusting yourself off and saying, I'm going to try it again. And that's incredible.

[Guy Raz]

Nigel. The first thing they need is a pep talk. Okay. And then we're going to get down to brass tax here. I think about John Foley. John Foley was on our show in 2019. Okay. And he founded Peloton, and Peloton was the hottest company during the pandemic. You couldn't get a Peloton. At one point, he was worth almost a billion dollars, and he lost almost all of it, actually. And I recently read an article where he in the Wall Street Journal where he basically said, look, I lost virtually all my money. But he has started a new company around Rugs, around disrupting that market. And I love the energy and the spirit there because a lot of people laughed at him. Oh, John Foley, he doesn't care. He's like, no, no, it's fine. I had a setback. Peloton was amazing. Lost it all. But I learned a lot. I'm going to bounce back, and I'M going to build this next thing. And he's fully into it. I actually think that's really inspiring because a lot of people are rooting against him, but I wouldn't, especially given his track record. And it sounds like you had a really good track record here. Seven years in business, sustainable store. Okay, You've set back. There are a variety of reasons, but most businesses don't make it past five years. But the fact that you've got a second chance now, that's really exciting. And so what I would say is really think about what you learned. Really spend time doing a self critique in a very constructive way. Write down the things that you don't want to do again. Right. And really use that seven years, those seven years as a gift that you were given this gift to know what not to do in the second coming of this. Right. The rebirth of it. Right. Does that make sense?

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes complete sense. And the thing with myself is that I call my philosophy, I'm a realist. So if this thing wasn't working and I get it right, and I'm smart enough to understand that there's many factors that affect the brick and mortar retail store and I address those in my business plan and so on. And I really appreciate what you said because it does feel like I've learned a lot and I am looking to dust myself off and come back honestly because the community is asking for it. I mean, there's three other surf shops here and everyone is like, when are you reopening? And the emails are coming in and Paragon has been doing relatively well with the pop up that we're doing there. So, you know, I feel like the writings on the wall, it's like, hey, this is just a setback, step back up and keep going. But you know, sometimes just the motivation for that, you know, like the pep talk was helpful and I definitely will take your advice and literally write down the things that I think maybe I could do better going forward. But yeah, it's just, I was just always curious what the mindset is from people who are currently successful, having failed to get back on that horse and really kind of not feel this beaten down on it. And then also too, like financially too, how do you deal with that? You know, because once you fail, like everything crumbles, right? Like your business, your personal credit is tied into the business part of it. If you're just a single person doing it. And there are all these things I'm trying to navigate and it's a little bit harder but it's almost. It's weird that you said, have something to prove it. It's almost like I have something to prove to everyone who thought, oh, well, I knew this wasn't going to work. There's way more people that think it will and will work. So I'm just again, trying to navigate that and understand the best way to go about it.

I so love that you have a community rallying around you.

[Guy Raz]

Yep.

[Chris Reuter]

I love that you have a partner like Paragon. Our product has been in Paragon for years, and they are fantastic. I so love that store. If you've never been, it's this quirky, massive sporting goods store in Manhattan. And what you have is, I think, what most brands would kill for. You have people asking for the product, essentially your store. You're down, they're rallying around you. And this comeback is not this, like, fabricated thing that a fancy ad campaign brings you back. It's going to be the will of the people.

Yeah.

So I think. I think the big. The question going through my mind is, how can you leverage this group of people that want you to come back? You know, on one. One area my mind goes to financially. So is there a Kickstarter or something that you get started, or is it a private conversation with a few of these folks that become shareholders? Yeah. May be able to buy a chunk of the company. And, you know, you're asking about finances. Is there a CFO that works for some other company but loves your store? That would be your wingman or wing woman kind of help you. And I'm guessing there's a lot of gold in this community. And if you start asking questions, it sounds like they'd love to help you out.

[Guy Raz]

Nigel, I think. Let me ask you a question, because we're probably about the same age, and I think. I think oftentimes people in our generation have a harder time asking for help. Is that fair to say?

[Chris Reuter]

It is. I mean, we did a GoFundMe and we got, you know, we raised, I think, like $26,000 in the first week of it. And that covered any, like, past due rent. I paid off some vendors, and I'm stubborn in the sense that I didn't want to file for bankruptcy because I have been a sales rep and I know how that affects accounts. But, yes, I have a hard time asking because in my mind, and, you know, everyone works hard for their money. So I don't want to be like, hey, why don't you help me? When obviously.

[Guy Raz]

No, no. But that's not what you're asking, you're saying, I'm going to give you an. You're not saying, why don't you help me? You're going to say, I have an opportunity for you.

[Chris Reuter]

Right?

[Guy Raz]

It's to be a shareholder in this. See, what's so cool about what you're talking about is surfing is to me and I'm in California, it's very intimidating. Right. I wouldn't feel comfortable walking into a surf shop and saying, hey, I don't really know what I'm doing. Can you help me? I want a place that's like, awesome, cool, let's go. And that's what you're talking about. You're saying, this is like, like, it's like, what was that movie? Dodgeball? It's like the gym for everyone else it is.

[Chris Reuter]

And also the other part of this that I didn't really think about because again, in Barbados the majority of surfers are black. So I don't think about this. But in America and in New York, we're the minority in the surfing community. So my aesthetic of the store wasn't, you know, this California based. You'd walk in and it'd be Bob Marley playing in the background and we'd have a little bit of rock and a little bit of soul, some James Brown. And I think people walked in and like you said, they didn't feel intimidated. And whenever we spoke to them it was like, hey, station family. It was always a family conversation because I wanted you to walk in. Your feet are wet and sandy. Yes. You know, you have your board stripping of water because I'll just mop it up after. It's not that serious. And I think that connected and I know it did. I can't say I think it did. And that's why I'm so like gung ho to do it. But sometimes it's just good to hear the feedback from people who've kind of been through it and you just need that pep talk, like you said. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And as Chris said, now you've got to start to harness that energy from the people. Like, we want you back. And so every time you hear that, you've got to say, okay, can we have a conversation? I'm thinking about raising money from the community as stakeholders. Everybody would have a stake in this business. Got it. You know, you don't even have to make an ask or you can just say, what do you think about this idea? And just start to have that conversation with people. I really want people to own this with me because this is an Opportunity to serve the community and to build a sustainable business that everybody can benefit from.

[Chris Reuter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

One point and one, I guess, thing to consider. I loved how you mentioned earlier the surfboard lockers. I'd never heard of such a thing, but, man, that sounds cool. And do you. If you think of the. When the store was open, what parts of it worked really well and what parts didn't? I'm assuming you've already thought of all this, but obviously whatever didn't work. Okay, maybe trim that, but, you know, is there a way to expand the lockers? I don't know if that's a money maker or not, but I love it. I love the vibe that you describe of the shop also, you know, people with sandy feet walking in music, playing Bob Marley, like it. That. That seems very unique. Yes. For the surf culture and, you know, New York being one of the fashion hubs of the world. What. Where my mind is going is merch and apparel. Like, there's kids in South Dakota wearing Quicksilver and all sorts of other surf brands that aren't within a thousand miles of an ocean, but they just. Just love that culture. And so is there a fashion designer you could work with that could learn your vibe, your brand, everything? And is that a new channel? I'm assuming you had T shirts and hoodies and stuff, but could you multiply that times a hundred and really run with that? I don't know that that kind of excites me.

Yeah, no, it's great that you said that, because that is because I'm like, you guys have said, this is what I've been jotting down for the next iteration. And. And exactly what you said is what I'm thinking is people came to get station merchandise, and the lockers are a great business because it's almost like a subscription model. You leave your board, we charge 150amonth, and we have 200 lockers, and when they're full, it's awesome, and when they're half full, it's still okay. But, yes, I really appreciate the conversation and a lot of these things that you guys have mentioned. I've been thinking about it, but to hear qualified people like yourselves kind of co sign.

[Guy Raz]

I don't know how qualified we are, but.

[Chris Reuter]

Well, I will say, guy, I am so honored to be on the show. I listened to almost every episode when I was starting my business because it gave me the motivation to understand that everyone started from somewhere. You know, some of these amazing guys that are multimillionaires. Now you hear oh, yeah, I lost my first shipment and, like, it got held up in customs and you're like, what? You know. So I really appreciate it. And I never thought that I would be on here, but I really appreciate.

[Guy Raz]

Well, here you are.

[Chris Reuter]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Here you are.

[Chris Reuter]

Yep.

[Guy Raz]

Nigel Lewis of Station Surf Shop. Good luck. Congrats on this. I'm cheering you on.

[Chris Reuter]

Appreciate it.

[Guy Raz]

And when I get to Rockaway Beach.

[Chris Reuter]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

I'm going right to the Station Surf Shop.

[Chris Reuter]

Surf lesson on me. Surf lesson on me. You too, Chris.

[Guy Raz]

Cool.

[Chris Reuter]

Thanks, Nigel.

Have a great day. Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you, Nigel. Chris, before I let you go, a question I ask a lot of people who come on to join me on the advice. What do you wish you knew at the beginning of starting your business that you now know that would have been helpful for you?

[Chris Reuter]

Spend less, save more.

[Guy Raz]

That's great advice because it's very actionable. I love that. Chris, thank you so much for coming back onto the show. Great to have you.

[Chris Reuter]

Thank you so much. This is fun.

[Guy Raz]

That's Chris Reuter, founder and CEO of Spikeball. By the way, if you haven't heard, Chris original How I Built this episode, you gotta go back and give it a listen. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Chris Reuter]

At that time, I had no idea how much it was gonna cost to manufacture. I had no idea how much to make a website. You know, back then, all websites were hand coded, so they were really expensive to make. Packaging, marketing, et cetera.

[Guy Raz]

What did you think you needed? How much money did you think you needed to raise?

[Chris Reuter]

We actually didn't set a number. We kind of just said, invest whatever you're comfortable losing because chances are very good that you're going to lose it.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-12 and leave a message there and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson, who also composed the music. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team at How I Built this also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Masini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Katherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Chris Reuter]

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