B (4:14)

That's correct. Yeah. We have, we have some others, but yeah, primarily a 220s, which is amazing

A (4:21)

because it reminds me of the southwest model with 737s. All right, tell me about Breeze. What makes it different from JetBlue and Azul or similar or different from other airlines operating right now?

B (4:33)

Well, I always learn, I learn from everything that I've ever done before. And, you know, it's, I learned from my Southwest experience that if you bought brand new airplanes, it was actually cheaper than if you got old airplanes. And I did that at JetBlue. And then I learned also at Southwest that you need to treat your people awesome. So I did that at JetBlue. And then as you said, I was somewhat forced out of JetBlue. They wanted me just to be the chairman. I said, no way. So I went back to the country of my birth and founded Azul. And I learned a thing, the country

A (5:11)

of birth is Brazil because you're, I think you were born there while your dad was on a mission there, right?

B (5:16)

Well, he was actually a journalist, but he had served his mission there, fell in love with the country, and came back to work as so many do when they served their missions. So it was amazing. Brazil was kind of like the US airline business when it was in the 1960s. So I really learned the value of being the exclusive person in a market, being a monopoly market. Even till Today, Azul about 85% of their markets, they have no nonstop competition. So learned that big lesson. And then I looked to the US and I just saw some interesting trends that airplanes were getting bigger and bigger and then the big guys were dominant hubs and really forcing people to fly through hubs. 125 cities had lost 25% of their air service over the last 10 years.

A (6:04)

Wow.

B (6:04)

And I also saw this trend about premium travel. People wanted to pay up for a little better service. And so I just found a plane that was conducive to first class, that was brand new, that had bigger windows, the 2 and 3 seating people loved, and with 25% lower trip costs. And so we started flying today. We were, we've announced 89 cities, we're in 36 different states, we have 314 different routes, and people love flying us. It's the highest NPS score I've ever seen, any of my airlines I've ever started because people are really appreciative of the nonstop, but also we have great people that take care of our guests every day.

A (6:45)

And so for you, the differentiator, right, is, as you say, is that of course you want to offer the best value and the lowest prices. But it really comes down to like, what is the experience. You see these things on social media all the time. I'm never flying Delta again, I'm never flying American again or United again. But really, it sounds like what you're saying is if we make the experience better than all that other stuff, the lines and just the hassle and TSA issues, that will become secondary.

B (7:18)

So I have this motto that too much overkill is never enough. So it's not enough to have the OMI nonstop flight, but you want to be able to have the best service, you want to be able to have the most on time flights, you want to be able to have a first class option, an extra seat option, and you want to be able to have wi Fi. And so you just layer all that on top and don't be content to just have the best of one thing. You want to be the Best in. In as many things as you possibly can.

A (7:45)

Yeah, for sure. You know, just. Just before we get to our. Our caller, let's talk about running an airline in general. How much of it is about. I mean, in business and retail. Right. A lot of the businesses that we focus on succeed, not necessarily because, you know, they're. They're. They've got the highest margins or the most foot traffic, but because they're really good at inventory management. So is there a version of that, I mean, there must be a version of that with. With running an airline, right? Like buying fuel futures or cutting costs in a way that doesn't sort of harm the experience, but can benefit you in the long term. Because it's. The math of running an airline is so complex. Cause the margins are pretty narrow, right?

B (8:27)

Yeah, they are. And small as we are, we still burn 127 million gallons of jet fuel this year. So a dollar increase in the jet fuel price is 120 million. 2DOL. Where we are right now pretty much is $240 million a year. And United, I think, came out with an estimate that it could be $15 billion, and they've only ever made 6 billion in their biggest year.

A (8:55)

Wow.

B (8:56)

But for me, I just took it down to the smallest thing to our people today. I said, look at $2 we have to get for every hour we fly, we have to get 10 more bucks on every ticket. If it's a dollar, it's $5. And so the long haul flights obviously get hit worse and they have to get more. So you move kind of from longer haul to shorter haul. You take all the fringe flights that are not making as much money, and you say, is it better not to fly these? And then you just button down the hatches, make sure you have enough capital. We'll get through it, but we want to make sure we have enough Runway as we possibly can to make sure that we can come out of it stronger.

A (9:35)

Awesome. All right, David, you ready to take our first caller?

B (9:37)

Let's do it.

A (9:38)

All right. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with David Neeleman. Please tell us your name and where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

C (9:46)

Thank you so much. And I love Breeze Airlines, I gotta say.

B (9:49)

Oh, great.

C (9:50)

My name is Barbara Storper, and I'm a nutritionist, and I'm the founder of Foodplay Productions, and we're a national touring nutrition education theater company. We bring live theater shows featuring juggling, music, theater, audience participation to schools and communities around country to Turn kids onto healthy habits. And we're based in Western Mass and Santa Fe, New Mexico.

A (10:13)

Nice. Welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in. So you do live theater for kids around food?

C (10:22)

Yes, I'm a nutritionist and I'm really concerned about kids eating and exercise habits. As you know, the leading causes of death and disease in this world today are diet related and kids are just doing really badly. And it was like 45 years ago when I was getting my master's in nutrition at Columbia University Teachers College and I was asked to give a lecture at an inner city school on nutrition. And I was like, a lecture to 400 kids on nutrition? I don't think so. So I was a juggler at the time and really loved theater. And I had been a journalist and I was horrified by all the ads promoting junk food to kids. And I thought, what could be as powerful as these ads and the marketing by the food industry? And I realized that theater is as powerful and really fun. And so that's what we did. And we started doing shows in 1982 and it's been a long time.

A (11:16)

And this is a for profit, not a nonprofit.

C (11:19)

It's a for profit. Yeah.

A (11:20)

And what. Give me a sense of what, you know, how your business is going. Like, what do you guys do in revenue?

C (11:27)

Yeah, it's been really hard. I mean, we probably should have been a nonprofit years and years ago, but I just have been on the boards of nonprofits and I just really like being an entrepreneur and I hate the bureaucracy, so I never did that. But we are a project from a fiscal agent, so that allows us sometimes to get grants. But the best thing we ever did was realize that we could partner with organizations like healthcare organizations, supermarket companies, that kind of thing. And they would sponsor us and bring us to schools in their region. And therefore schools wouldn't have to pay, which is really the biggest obstacle against us doing these programs. You know, in our heyday, which was more like 2010 to 2016 or 17, we were doing really well, really big staff, lots of programs. We had four vans touring. And it was so much work though. And with COVID we ended up really downsizing. We did live stream shows which were amazing because they were so much easier. But now schools don't want livestream. And I'm getting up in years and I'm trying to figure out how can I keep food play alive somehow in this day and age? Because, you know, in 1982 things are pretty different.

D (12:51)

Yeah.

A (12:51)

And when you say sort of. Well, I mean, are you sort of what's your budget roughly now?

C (12:57)

Yeah, well, back then, our revenue was probably one and a half million dollars, and we had a staff of like 12 people, and we had four vans, and each van had, like, three performers and stage managers.

A (13:10)

Yeah. And now.

C (13:12)

And now it's. I think it's become a labor of love, quite frankly.

A (13:16)

Right, okay, so you are. So you're looking to figure out. Trying to figure out how to make it continue and thrive essentially, without you.

C (13:23)

Exactly.

A (13:24)

Okay, let me bring in David Neeleman. David, thoughts, questions, ideas for Barbara?

B (13:31)

Well, first of all, I just found out I'm having my 39th grandchild. My oldest grandchild is 18 years old. So I've got a bunch of kids, grandkids in that age. And I really applaud. The work that you're doing is just critically important. I mean, maybe you may want to convert it to a nonprofit and make it a nonprofit. That's what I would do. If you wanted to take a step back so that people could donate to it and they could get the tax write off, and then it becomes, I think your funding source becomes much bigger and doesn't mean you can't make money, you personally, from salary or advising fees from doing that. But, you know, it's interesting, School kids, if you go to Brazil and you go into a bathroom after lunch, in any business, everyone's in there brushing their teeth. And I'm like, why is everyone brushing their teeth at lunchtime? They said, we learned to do that in school. When we were in school, we brushed our teeth and those habits continued on. So what you teach those kids in school can continue on. And so really, I applaud what you're doing.

C (14:41)

Well, you know, Brazil has the best dietary guidelines of any country in the globe because it's all about sustainability and it's about Whole Foods, and it doesn't have the influence of the food marketers.

A (14:54)

Wow. Amazing. Yeah. You know, I tend to agree with you, David. I mean, about this nonprofit idea. Barbara. I have a different, completely different side of my world, which is how I built this. But I also have a kids media company, which I started 10 years ago with two friends, and we have a kids podcast called wow in the World. And it's a very, very popular kids podcast. It's one of the top podcasts, you know, for kids, full stop. But Kids is a. As you know, it's a. It's challenging. There are all kinds of rules and regulations around how you advertise to kids, and kids, as an advertising category, are less valuable to marketers depending on what you're selling to them. So it's tricky in your case. I mean, there are a couple of options. You could sort of come up with a plan and a system and license that out to other people, which you may have thought about. You could try and sell or merge your business with an education company, but it may be tough to find somebody who wants to buy it. And then the third option, and I don't think these are comprehensive, but a third option would be to go either convert to a nonprofit or spin out a nonprofit part of your business, which really, I agree with David, enables you to attract donations, small donations, and also larger grants and donations. Because to me, it seems, again, the way you describe it is this is a mission driven labor of love. And so it's possible to have that hybrid model where maybe you spin out a nonprofit wing if you're not comfortable fully transitioning to a nonprofit. But it sounds like you are also kind of, you've done this since 1982 and you're ready to move on.

C (16:42)

Yeah. Do you think that it makes sense in this day and age to continue to do live theater? I mean, because I think it's amazing. But when everything's digital, should I think about just putting it on video and putting it on social media instead of live theater because it's so much work?

B (17:00)

Yeah, it's not either or. You can do both. It can be. And you should definitely have a social media aspect of it. If the schools are willing to let you in and do a live performance, that's great. And you have sponsorships to be able to do that, foundations. Because obviously you've got the food companies on one side that are making processed food will kind of be but the antithesis of the other people. Finding passionate people that believe in children's health is just a really important mission. So, yeah, I would definitely have a big social media presence because that would attract a lot of people and then have. If you can get in there and do it live and you can really affect behavior, you have to prove that it really changes behavior. People will beat a path to your door if you can prove that.

C (17:51)

Yeah. We have evidence based results from USDA and CDC and we have like 10 national awards. So we have a great reputation.

A (18:00)

And you know, one option also, Barbara, if you don't want to go down the nonprofit route, is to really spend time now focusing on finding that person who could take it over. And maybe, you know, you give them 50% ownership and you retain some ownership. You retain 50% and you let that person sort of run with this, you know, and see what they can do with it.

C (18:23)

I would love to do that.

A (18:25)

Last thoughts, David?

B (18:26)

No, that's it. Good luck to you and congratulations on all the great work you've done.

C (18:31)

Thank you so much.

B (18:32)

It's so important.

A (18:33)

Yeah. Barbara, thanks so much for calling in. Barbara Storper, the company's called Foodplate Productions. Good luck. Thanks.

C (18:38)

Thank you.

A (18:40)

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is David Neeleman, founder of many, many different airlines, including JetBlue and Breeze Airways. David, are you ready for another call?

B (19:18)

Yeah, let's do it.

A (19:19)

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice line. You're on with David Neeleman. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

E (19:28)

Hi, Guy. Hi, David. My name's Jeff Pajac. I'm calling from the beautiful city of Chicago. My wife Jackie and I, we started a gym called Ultimate Ninjas, basically on the sails behind the wind of American Ninja Warrior. And the gyms have exploded in popularity. Right now in 2026, we're franchising both domestically and internationally in the country of China. And finally, we are about to embark on a capital raise to launch professional sports league.

A (20:02)

Wow.

B (20:02)

Congrats.

A (20:02)

Thanks for calling in, Jeff. So Ultimate Ninjas, it's an indoor gym where kids can, like, replicate what they see on American Ninja Warrior, that TV show, basically.

E (20:12)

You got it. Yeah.

A (20:14)

Amazing. And you started this in 2016. How many locations do you have now?

E (20:19)

Fifteen total. Six corporate gyms and nine franchises. We just began franchising out of COVID and it's really exploded in popularity way beyond American Ninja Warrior. There's hundreds of thousands of kids competing against each other internationally and nationally. And in 2028, this is going to be an Olympic sport.

A (20:41)

So is there going to be a ninja event at the Olympics? There is. Okay.

E (20:46)

Yeah. It's going to be put into the modern pentathlon in 2028, so it's going to replace equestrian. And then in 2032, the thought is that it would be its own standalone competition.

A (20:58)

Wow. So you are. Okay. So you with your business. This is a franchise model. Basically. You've got some corporate owned Locations. But the idea is you want to use the franchise model to expand.

E (21:11)

Correct. And with the Olympics, there's a lot of interest out there. We just began franchising, so we're really building our infrastructure to launch. The early franchises are all friends and family. And the early results have been rather good. In fact, they've been great.

A (21:29)

So you've got this model and you've got a system in place and it's basically turnkey. I mean you, you help somebody identify a location and how to build the gym and then that's it, they're on their own. I mean, not on their own, but it's fairly replicable.

E (21:45)

Yeah, we've got a curriculum library. A couple of the famous American Ninja warriors from the show. Jesse Lebrecht and Mike Solenze have been with me since the start and are still with me today. Jesse's the greatest of all time on American Ninja Warrior and so she's part of the franchising. She onboards the franchisees, teaches them the curriculum. Ninja is a complex sport, very similar to gymnastics. So it does take a little bit of a learning curve to learn it, but.

A (22:14)

And the model is what you pay a fee? A membership fee?

E (22:20)

Yes. So we offer classes, camps and birthday parties to some degree. We also have adult fitness. It's a monthly membership, kids come once a week. And we also have travel teams as well.

A (22:32)

And just I'm curious, what are your biggest costs? Is it personnel, is it maintenance?

E (22:39)

Really, at the end of the day, it's labor. And that labor is very variable, depending on the volumes.

A (22:45)

Right.

E (22:45)

So you can control your labor costs. We do not have cost of goods sold.

A (22:49)

So what, what roughly what, like what kind of revenue or what kind of sales do to each of these locations do per year?

E (22:56)

So we have two offerings with our model. One is our bigger gyms. These are mostly warehouse sized gyms, 10 to 15,000 square feet. Those are about a million to a million and a half in top line revenue. The smaller gyms, the academies, which are built more for the younger kids 3 to 7 years old, those just launched in November of 2024 and that's where we're seeing the majority of the interest. But yeah, healthy margins and you know, we're promoting youth fitness. Kids are overcoming obstacles and it's a timeless sport. We all remember going to the corner and on the monkey bars. Right. Well, this is just a monkey bar gym on steroids with a lot of

A (23:39)

cool like mats that you can fall on stuff. Okay. And before we, we bring in David, what's Your question sounds like you're expanding and want to expand further. So tell me, tell us what you're, what you're looking for help with.

E (23:49)

So we're, we're embarking on a capital race of $9 million to launch a professional sport. Especially with the Olympics headed this way, it's imminent that a professional sport is about to be created. We've gotten as far as finding strategic partners with this professional sport. It's a healthy, you know, ask to, to. To go out and raise $9 million. Last month, literally, one of the grassroots leagues, an amateur league, gave me a call and said, hey, why don't you fold our league into this and we can already have a vertical of amateur league gyms and then we can start this professional league together. So I'm actually, you know, I'm looking for your perspectives on these two paths.

A (24:35)

Got it.

E (24:36)

Once you commit to the amateur league, that opportunity to raise that $9 million kind of goes by the wayside, and you're fully committed on the other side of the spectrum. You know, if I go another year or two to try to raise the $9 million, then I've lost that time in terms of trying to build a professional league from the ground up.

A (24:55)

Yeah. All right, David, I want to bring you in. So really cool concept, right? Indoor gyms, but, but like ninja style gyms, potentially this is going to become a professional sport. And so, you know, Jeff is trying to figure out, does he go all out and, and try to build. Build his own league or does he raise a bunch of capital to do this? And, you know, lot, lot, lot and lots going on here. So thoughts, questions, ideas for Jeff?

B (25:23)

So, first of all, my wife turned me on to American Ninja Warrior, and I watched quite a bit of it, and it's really impressive. Amazing stuff. I love anything that gets the kids off the video games off the screen time, be it eating healthy and then working out and having the confidence to do this, but also the physical exercise. So that's really commendable to, to this next generation. So I assume if you go down this amateur thing, do you give. And you said you give up the ability to raise money because the amateur is going to get a percentage of the league, Is that it?

E (26:02)

Yeah. Yes.

B (26:03)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I, what I would rather do, sometimes I always say I'd rather own a smaller piece of a bigger pie than no pie at all. And so I would lean towards doing that. I don't know enough about, you know, what they bring to the table, but it seems like if it was me. Instead of trying to raise the money and kind of do it on your own, it's a great platform to go from amateur, and then the best of all those amateurs become professional, and it would allow you to get some sponsorships and get people in there. That's what I would be leaning to. And it sounds like maybe you might be leaning towards that as well.

E (26:39)

Yeah, it's the, the time factor moving towards the Olympics in 2028. It's just trying to get my arms around the timing of this. I, you know, internationally, there's a lot of interest in this. And I have to, like I said before, the. I think it's imminent that this is going to happen.

A (27:00)

Okay. I mean, look, the. The Olympics introduce all kinds of new sports. Every. I mean, I remember when surfing was introduced. Right. And so it doesn't mean that your timeline is so compressed simply because it's being introduced this next Olympic Games, I think. You know, because right now I'm looking at how you're describing Ultimate Ninjas, right? These gyms. And you're describing recurring revenue. Right. You're describing strong unit economics. I mean, you know, million and a half with healthy margins. You've got an obvious. Obviously, a clear path to expanding a professional league is a different business. Right. You're talking about, you know, all kinds of things. I mean, media rights and sponsorships and capital intensive. And so I wonder whether, you know, it makes more sense to really sort of think about what you're already doing as kind of a form of a league, like a little league of Ninjas. And I wonder whether you can think about what you're already doing with Ultimate Ninjas as a way to build a sort of a league or some kind of even a youth league out of what you already have.

E (28:19)

Sure. No, that's great advice. I definitely feel like that's the path of least resistance. We do have some pretty good partners on the capital raise for the professional league. However, that's a big ask. And if you're going to, you know, ask for $9 million in tranches of, you know, $3 million per year, that's. That's significant for an emerging sports league, Right?

A (28:44)

Yeah. Yeah. David, what do you think? I mean, it sounds like he's got a good business going. I don't know. I mean, I. I like the idea of. Of a professional league, but if there's a way for you to, you know, maybe sort of create it more slowly and really focus on just expanding what appears to be a really successful business.

B (29:07)

Yeah. You know, you have a great business. I think that would become a natural outcrop of it. You know, sometimes when you raise money, you get a bunch of people in there that maybe not have the same vision you do. It's not a panacea, really, you know, be it private equity or individuals. And you're going to have to give it up, give up a big chunk of it anyways, maybe half or more than half if you're raising that kind of money. But I just, I agree with Guy. Just focus on your business, grow it like crazy, and then if you're the leader in that business and then things will come your way for sure.

E (29:47)

Awesome. Great advice. Thank you.

A (29:49)

Yeah. For sure. The company is called Ultimate Ninjas. Jeff Pajac, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.

E (29:56)

Thank you. Appreciate it.

A (29:58)

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built this Lab. Welcome back to the Advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with David Neeleman, founder of five airlines including JetBlue, Breeze and Azul. David, let's bring in our next caller. You ready?

B (30:36)

I'm ready, Absolutely.

A (30:38)

Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with David Neeleman. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, please.

D (30:44)

Yeah. Firstly, thank you both so much for having me. My name is Vince Speroni. I'm calling from northern Virginia. I'm 25 years old and I'm the founder of Gotchees. We sell men's certified organic underwear. We're really focused on the health aspect of our fabrics while still making the product suitable for exercise and everyday life. But really looking forward to talking to you guys.

A (31:05)

All right, so thanks for calling in, Ben. So Gotchy's, it's an underwear brand that is made from material like what? Cotton.

D (31:15)

Certified organic cotton.

A (31:16)

Got it. Okay, so tell me a little bit about this. I mean, I'm assuming that most underwear is made from cotton.

D (31:23)

It's a split. Half the underwear is made from synthetic materials which, if you ever heard of polyester or nylon. These are derived from petroleum and often full of toxic chemicals and dyes which can overheat and harm your testicular region. And the other half is made from standard cotton underwear which can still be sprayed with pesticides and finished with harsh chemicals. So really, we're offering Third party certified organic cotton. So you can trust the materials from farm to skin.

A (31:49)

Got it. Okay. And tell me a little bit about how you started the business.

D (31:53)

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. I had an IT background, but my friends and I, after we graduated college, we did this event on Saturday mornings where you could give a presentation on any subject that you wanted to. So you could present on how to start an airline company or how to start a podcast or. Or your religious beliefs or how to cook a steak. Any subject was on the table. And I gave a presentation one time on the negative impacts of synthetic clothing on our health. Specifically men's underwear. Not as a research objective, just a topic I was interested in. And the crowd was like, whoa, this is kind of crazy. I didn't know that synthetic underwear was potentially bad for my health. What should I buy? And I didn't know the answer. That's kind of where the light bulb went off.

B (32:33)

Huh.

A (32:34)

So. Right. And this, it's interesting. I see a lot of these Instagram ads now for like organic gym shorts. There's like a lot of people who are talking about, you know, we're basically wearing plastic. You know, I'm probably wearing plastic right now with my like athleisure wear. And so there's a lot of, A lot of these brands are looking like merino wool. You're doing cotton. How, how and how long have you been around?

D (32:59)

We launched January 2025.

A (33:02)

Wow. And how did you do your first year?

D (33:04)

Our first year we did 40k in revenue.

A (33:07)

But it was nice.

D (33:08)

Such. It was so many rookie mistakes. I was working a full time job for the first half of the year. We knew absolutely nothing about marketing funnels or anything. I would say in September we got a lot more serious and structured and focused. And projection for this year is $150,000 in revenue.

A (33:25)

Amazing. And you're selling entirely through your website, direct to consumer.

D (33:28)

Entirely online. D2C through our website.

A (33:31)

And you're making these. You're. You're having them. They're manufactured in Asia.

D (33:35)

Turkey.

A (33:36)

In Turkey. Okay. Nice. All right, before we dive in further, what's your question?

D (33:40)

So given that we're bootstrapped and we have limited cash on hand, how do I decide whether to spend that cash on new unproven SKUs that will increase optionality for new customers and give existing customers more things to repurchase versus putting it back into what's already selling and using that money on building the brand through marketing.

A (33:59)

Got it. Okay. David Neilman underwear. This looks like they're going to hit 150 in sales this year. Do they add another product now or do they. What do you think? Do they stick with underwear or questions that you might have for Vince?

B (34:12)

Well, I guess SKU would be different colors, right? Is that what you're.

D (34:15)

Different colors, different fabric length, like you can go into briefs. You can make your boxer briefs longer, different styles of boxers. Because we've had a lot of customers say, hey, I love your company, but you don't have this preference of mine. So they won't purchase because we're very limited.

B (34:29)

Yeah, I guess there's the in and out model where you just keep. You find what works and just keep doing it over and over again. And then there is, you know, the model where you just keep getting a bigger and bigger menu. I would maybe just get a couple of different SKUs, and if it's working well and just hammer that away and be like in an out burger and just keep bootstrapping it that way, as opposed to spending more and more money on going wider. Just because obviously it's not something that. It's not a fashion statement, like something an outerwear would be. So that's just my instinct that I would do. And as opposed to just going to more and more SKUs, try and limit the SKUs. And if it's working and if you really believe in it, then it should work out.

A (35:16)

Yeah, I agree with David on that. I mean, I think before you really expand. Right. You've got to ask yourself a few questions. So what's your, like, do you have any data around sort of repeat purchases?

D (35:30)

Our repurchase rate is pretty good. It's 17% right now. We want to get it up to 25, but we've only been really selling for, like, eight months now legitimately. And underwear is very hard to predict when people are going to repurchase. So we're thinking with time, repurchase rates will go up.

A (35:50)

And are people buying multiple pairs per order?

D (35:52)

Yeah, the average order value is over $100, which is our four pack.

A (35:57)

Got it. Okay. So you really. Once you hit 30% of returning of repeat purchases, returning customers, that's a really good sign. The other question is, are you ever stocking out? Are you running out of things?

D (36:11)

We have not run out of things yet. We went all in on inventory with all of our money.

A (36:15)

Got it, Got it. Okay. So that's another sign when you start to get close to stocking out. And then the third one is customers. Listen to your customers. It sounds like they are already starting to Ask for other things. And that's an important sign. So I think when you hit all three of those, that's a really strong indication that it's time to expand. Because every time you add a sku, you're talking about more cash that you're going to tie up and you're going to have manufacturing minimums, probably. And there's a risk. Inventory management is always a challenge, although with underwear, a little different because it's more of an evergreen product. But I do think that I agree with David that you want to really focus on just getting this right and maybe slowly introducing a brief, you know, or. So you're using the same fabric. Right. But a different cut, essentially. And so that's where I would sort of go. But I would really target maybe one more by the end of the year.

D (37:22)

Yeah, our plan, the debate we're having is to launch briefs and then also undyed boxers, which is the two things that you guys have mentioned, which is interesting. But our, our current products are. Are crushing it in terms of how much the customers love them and the feedback we're getting on them. So that's just kind of, kind of why I'm wondering, because we've really historically struggled with marketing efficiency and just getting our brand out there. So that's just. That's just kind of the dilemma I've been working through.

A (37:51)

Yeah, I mean, David, you. I mean, you know this. Do the airlines, but you're. You know, I think a lot of, A lot of DTC brands focus too much on customer acquisition. And customer acquisition costs are really, really high right now. And I think not enough of them are focused on doubling down on their existing customers, reminding them, sending them emails or a newsletter, or really creating content that's valuable for them. I mean, even a newsletter talking about toxicity or tips for better fitness, healthier living. I mean, when you are establishing that. Because you probably have emails, right? I'm sure you do. You've got that relationship with your customers. You really want to double down on those existing customers to be repeat purchasers, because that's really where the value is. And it costs so much less to do that because you already have them on board.

B (38:47)

I totally agree. And also, you know, if you do have a lot of people asking for briefs, for example, if you could do a survey and say, you know, if on your website you could say, are you interested in briefs? Then you could know what percentage. If you said 25% of the people aren't buying because we don't have briefs, then obviously catering to that Vertical and having somebody who's already you're engaged with, you know, I think that's really the best way to harvest those customers. And then also underwear wears out, obviously. And so being able to kind of come back with an offer or some subscription model or something that every six months you'll send them some new ones, I think that is just doing everything you can to get existing customers just being rapidly loyal to your brand and your product.

D (39:41)

Yeah, that's exactly why I was so excited to talk. Because my instinct was if I have more skus, I'll be able to get more out of my existing customers because I'll have more colors, I'll just have, there'll be more, more excitement. And you know, maybe, maybe they love gotchas but they don't want to re buy the same color. You know, maybe, maybe they want to try briefs, maybe they've tried briefs for another brand, they like it. So my instinct was more skus equals a better relationship with existing customers. But it's, it sounds like maybe there's.

A (40:13)

It's not, I don't, I don't think that's entirely wrong. No, I actually, I think that's a good instinct. But you want to go about it slowly because you're going to have to tie up more. It sounds like you've already tied up quite a bit of cash in your existing inventory. Is that fair to say?

D (40:28)

Yep, all of it, basically.

A (40:29)

So you want to be careful, right? You really want to manage your cash well and you're dealing with a product that is not, it's not fast fashion. You know, it's not going to go out of fashion next year. People are still going to buy underwear that look like, looks like this. But I think you want to really, you know, part of it is you want to double down on community. You're also building a community. I'm looking at your website and the people here who are, you know, talking about how much they love the shorts and stuff. I mean, these are people who go to the gym, who work out, who are healthy, who. I'm just looking at the pictures. Everyone looks really healthy and I'm sure they're into health and fitness because they're buying non toxic underwear. So, you know, down the road you're going to want to, you know, look at women's, you know, underwear too, probably. But for now I think you really want to. If you're not doing it, you want to communicate with your existing audience, with your existing customers and just, you know, send out a newsletter every couple of Weeks and you know, just communicate with them and stay on their radar and

B (41:32)

ask them, if I had different colors, would you buy more? I mean, you could survey those people as well. You're small enough, you could actually set up calls in focus groups with them and listen to what they're saying to you. And you can learn a lot from your customers.

A (41:49)

That's a great idea. David. I bought a shirt from a brand that was stalking me on Instagram called Sene or S E N E and they make T shirts and I liked them. I noticed that the CEO of the company has been emailing and saying, hey, I'm the CEO and founder of the company. I'd love to hear from you, our customers, please click this link and set up a call with me. Which I thought was cool, you know, because they're small enough where they're clearly looking for feedback from customers. And I just thought that was cool. That was a cool idea.

D (42:21)

Yeah. I've emailed my customer base with my phone number and I've said please call me if you have any thoughts on what you'd like to see or what we can do better. But the link to the calendly is

A (42:32)

send them a link to your calendar, say set up a time. And we'd love to hear what you think and I'd love to get your ideas and we'll give you 10% off your next order if you do this.

D (42:41)

Awesome. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

A (42:45)

Absolutely. Vince Peroni. The brand is called Gotchees. Good luck. Thanks for calling in, man.

B (42:49)

Best of luck.

A (42:52)

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to give you too much information about what I'm wearing underneath my clothes, David, But I do wear, I've gotten into this stuff. I wear like really gotten interested in like non toxic fabrics. I really am bullish about this category because it's. The products are getting better and better and better.

B (43:11)

Yeah. And you know, it's like I'm cognizant of what kind of deodorant I use now and you know, if it makes me itch and shampoo use and.

A (43:20)

Yeah, no, it's really interesting for sure. David, before I let you go, a question that I ask all founders who come on the show, which is if you could go back to David Neeleman back in the day when you were just starting Morris Air and really getting experience in this business, if you could go back to that time, knowing what you know now, especially about this industry, what kind of advice would have been helpful for him to know for that young David Neeleman to know.

B (43:48)

You know, I think just I talk to entrepreneurs a lot and, you know, a lot of people say they want to be entrepreneur, but they just don't give. They're just not passionate and they're just not, they're not willing to wake up in the morning thinking about it, being in the shower thinking about it, and just being completely immersed in what you're doing and then be the best. I mean, we're going through a difficult time right now in the airline business because fuel spiked. And I just keep the mission is let's be flawless on what we can control. If we can do that, we'll be good. So I think it's just absolute flawlessness in all that you do and being the best. And then it will be very difficult for anyone to defeat you.

A (44:38)

Yeah, I love that. That's David Neeleman, founder of JetBlue, Azul Breeze Airways, WestJet, Morris Air, and probably some others in the future. And by the way, if you haven't heard David's original How I Built this episode, you've got to go back and check it out. It really is so good. I know I say that every time, but they are all so good. This is such an amazing story about a guy from, you know, nowhere who went on to found all these airlines. You can find a link to it in the podcast show notes. And here is one of my favorite moments from that episode.

B (45:10)

Herb invited me to Ruth Chris Steakhouse in Dallas and said, this isn't going to work. You know, you're driving everybody insane in this company. And he reached across the table and held my hands. I was crying. And he said, everybody, even your, even the people that were your biggest supporters said you had to go.

A (45:30)

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Casey Herman, and our audio engineer was Kwesi Lee. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, John Isabella, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Katherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.