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- [00:00]
A
When I started How I Built this, there were so many early stage decisions to make. It was super overwhelming and every day seemed to introduce another question that needed an answer. When you're starting something new, finding the right tool that simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of new businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is your commerce expert in everything from managing inventory to international shipping and beyond. Shopify can easily create email and social media campaigns and is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and Start. Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.combilt go to shopify.comb built that's shopify.combilt your website can really set the entire tone for your brand. I know that when I hear about a new company, the first thing I do is go to their website. Keeping your site updated and making changes quickly should be easy. That's why so many companies from early stage startups to Fortune 500s are turning to Framer. Framer works like your team's favorite design tool. It's built for real time collaboration with a powerful CMS that's great for SEO and analytics that help you understand what's actually working. And here's the key part. Framer doesn't slow you down. Any change you make goes live in seconds with just one click. Learn how you can get more out of your.com from a framer specialist or get started building for free today@framer.com Bilt for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com Biltine for 30% off framer.com Bilt rules and restrictions may apply. A lot of new founders I meet want their businesses to run more efficiently with tighter budgets and smaller teams. And they don't want to get caught up in how they should be doing payroll or HR or benefits all within different team management systems. And that's where Gusto comes in. Gusto is online payroll benefit software built for small businesses. It's all in one remote, friendly and incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire, onboard and support your team from anywhere. Gusto helps teams save time with built in automated tools, offer letters, onboarding docs, direct deposits and more. Gusto is ranked number one on G2's highest satisfaction product list for 2025 and is trusted by over 400,000 small businesses. Try Gusto today at gusto.combilt and get three free when you run your first payroll, that's three months of free payroll at gusto.combilt one more time gusto.combilt when it comes to your health and well being, the right care can change everything. That's why Cleveland Clinic has been elevating world class patient care for over a century. From the most specialized heart, neurology and cancer treatments to the latest surgical innovations and beyond. Cleveland Clinic is here for every every care in the world. Whether you're exploring advanced care or just looking after your health, all the info you need is waiting for you@clevelandclinic.org. Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Eric Ryan. He's a serial entrepreneur and the co founder of Method, Ollie Welly Tandy. Just a whole bunch of incredible brands and that's not all of them. And this is actually the second time Eric has joined me on the How I built this advice line to take your calls. Eric, thank you so much for coming back.
- [04:30]
B
Oh, so happy to be back. I thank you for having me.
- [04:33]
A
And of course, if any of you listening haven't heard the original story about how Eric and Adam Lowry built the cleaning products brand Method, you got to check it out. It's an awesome story. We will put a link to it in the show notes. Eric, when you were on advice line back last summer, we got an update on some of the projects that you had kind of wound down. Give us a sense of what's going on right now. What are you up to? You are are so busy. You've got all these different things happening at the same time. Give us an update.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah, so I've moved much more into the venture investing space and I joined Greycroft. We are launching a new $150 million dedicated consumer fund. We just made our first two investments. So I've officially made the move from entrepreneur to investor.
- [05:15]
A
Wow. And how does that feel? I mean, you were on the other side of the table for so long and probably had some opinions about some of the investors that you. You talk to. Yeah. What is that? What is that like?
- [05:25]
B
You know, it's like when you're an entrepreneur, as we're about to talk to several of them today, you very much feel like a quarterback and you get sacked over and over. So to be on the sidelines and playing coach feels really good where you can say to somebody, get back in the game. You got this. So after years of getting sacked, I'm really enjoying starting to play coach.
- [05:46]
A
Tell me a little bit about. I know your philosophy about building businesses was basically identifying opportunities for brands that, you know that, that needed a disruption or cultural shift. Right. Like cleaning products or vitamins or, you know, first aid. Right. Which is all these things you did. Do you apply that to. To what you look for in. In other startups that you. You're going to invest in?
- [06:11]
B
Yeah, very much so. And we work really closely with like, Target as a retail partner. And so I focus very much on identifying in any given category over the next three to five years, like what are gonna be the big macro trends. And then it's just pattern matching and going out and scouting and finding founders and entrepreneurs then who are kind of building into that.
- [06:31]
A
Interesting. Yeah. As you know, you're here in the Bay Area and it seems like it's here with more intensity right now, this idea that investors are really cold on consumer products right now. Consumer brands. Cpg, Right. Because of a variety of reasons. There was a sort of exuberant period where a lot of money went into consumer brands and a lot of them didn't. Some of them didn't work out. And it's tough. It's tough market. It's tough to hit $100 million. Right. Which is really where a brand is either, you know, a target for acquisition or raises more money and then pursues going public. I mean, is that. Is that real? Is it true? And if so, what's your sense of why?
- [07:10]
B
Yeah, you know, I think it's a great time to be getting back into consumer. That's why I love our timing of building this fund. And what you said is exactly what happened. We really saw, you know, around 20, 20, 21 and even before that, a lot of tech money poured into consumer. And the things that were like literally a recipe would suddenly be classified as food tech and these insane valuations got applied that brought out all sorts of bad behaviors. They're trying to grow too fast. And I think now we've seen a really great reset. And it's never been easier to start a company, but it's never been harder to scale one. And I think as an investor, really picking the founders and the brands that you think fundamentally can be 100, 200 million brands. Like, one of them I've been involved with for the last three years is Goodles, the Mac and cheese. And, you know, trying to find those Goodles are not easy.
- [08:00]
A
All right, well, I think that the answer to this question is yes. Are you ready for our first call?
- [08:05]
B
Let's do it.
- [08:06]
A
All right, let's. Let's bring our first caller. Hello. Welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
- [08:14]
C
Hi, Guy. Hi, Eric. My name is Christina Pang. I am calling from San Diego today, and I am the founder of Haven Beauty. Our mission is to bring joy and beauty to the lives of all through scent. And the way that we are doing that is by building the first fine fragrance and skincare brand formulated without the 82 known fragrance allergens, so that everyone, including those who have had to give up fragrance in the past, can enjoy it again.
- [08:41]
A
All right, welcome to the show, Christina. So Haven is a. It's basically perfume, but that is for people who stopped using it because they were allergic to it.
- [08:52]
C
Yes. So we do perfumes as well as fragranced skin care, and we also have some home fragrance products, and it is designed to be suitable even for people who haven't been able to use it. So we're not. Interesting. Yeah, we're not, like, excluding people who just generally love fragrance, but we're making it possible for those who haven't been able to enjoy it.
- [09:15]
A
You know, I think as somebody who reacts to things with, like, my skin, I think most, maybe not most, but, like, I feel like at least a third of the human population has some reaction to things like, you know. And so this is really interesting to me because I imagine, right, a lot of people are allergic to things in perfumes and they stop using it. Tell me the. The idea behind it. Did you have this issue yourself?
- [09:38]
C
Yeah. So, you know, my background has been in the beauty industry, but then when I had my eldest child, he was born severely allergic and had also severe eczema. And so what we found was that he was just reacting to everything. So even clean natural products we were getting reactions to. And it wasn't until we cut all fragrance out of our lives, including natural fragrances, that his skin began to clear up. So naturally, we kind of started looking into hey, what is it about fragrance that is causing so many issues? And what we found is that fragrance ingredients in general, including natural ones, they contain a lot of allergens. And so it's not necessarily toxic, but if you're allergic to it, it's gonna give you a reaction. And, you know, because he also had multiple food allergies from that journey, we had discovered, hey, if you exclude what he's allergic to, you know, we're still able to make great food. So it's kind of a similar concept we were applying to fragrance, skincare, beauty.
- [10:48]
A
That seems really hard, Right, Because a lot of fragrances are just oils, Right. Like lavender or something. And I mean, imagine you can't create a line of endless scents. Right? There are only certain ones that work.
- [11:01]
C
Yeah, it's really, really challenging. And that's also why it hasn't really been done, because you're effectively going from thousands of fragrance ingredients, limiting that palette to maybe a couple hundred if you're lucky. It's also something you can't necessarily do at home yourself in your own kitchen. You know, you do need to partner with a specialized fragrance lab because they use these techniques to kind of separate the compounds that are allergenic from those that aren't.
- [11:31]
A
And tell me a little bit about the business. When did you say you launched?
- [11:34]
C
So, I started the business August of 2024, after I left my corporate job. We were already kind of working on candles and things, and then we started working on the beauty and personal care after that. We launched our first product last summer in July.
- [11:51]
A
Okay, and tell me about your sales last year. How'd you do?
- [11:55]
C
We ended the year a little bit over 100,000. This year to date, we're on track to maybe get to 250, 300, but we do have a stretch goal for ourselves of 400.
- [12:08]
A
And where are you selling the products?
- [12:10]
C
We initially launched on direct to consumer. We also have wholesale accounts with several luxury resorts and spas. And just last month, we launched nationwide at Anthropologie.
- [12:22]
A
Okay, awesome. I want to bring in Eric Ryan, but before I do, tell us your question, and we'll see if we can answer it.
- [12:27]
C
Yeah. So effectively, there have been millions of consumers with eczema sensitive skin. They've been trained to think fragrance is bad and just to avoid fragrance entirely. And even the experts that they trust, like dermatologists, have been trained to think that as well. So when you're introducing a new idea into an established category like that, you know, how do you rebuild that trust and help people Feel comfortable giving fragrance a try again, especially if you have a very limited marketing budget.
- [13:00]
A
Okay, Eric Ryan, I want to bring you in any thoughts, ideas, questions that you may have for Christina.
- [13:06]
B
Yeah, I think you nailed it. Which is like, you've got a really good idea. Fragrance is a hot category, particularly with Gen Alpha and Gen Z. Let me ask you a quick question. What percentage of consumers have fragrance allergies or are easily irritated by fragrances?
- [13:23]
C
So there's about 30 million Americans who have eczema, and then more than 100 million people who self identify as having sensitive skin. So that's a pretty big number because you can assume that most of them, a significant portion of them, aren't able to use fragrance products.
- [13:42]
B
Yeah. Okay. It's fascinating because you're entering into a huge category that's growing, and there's a really big addressable audience today, but you nailed it, which is the challenge of reeducating them. Going from fragrances bad to me to fragrances safe for me, that's. That's a huge leap. I think. You know, really educating consumers is hard.
- [14:05]
C
Re.
- [14:05]
B
Educating them is even harder. And so I think you're approaching it the right way. Just looking at the packaging, it's really beautiful. And I think you have to create a brand that is appealing to everybody, that just happens to be allergen free and really kind of run two paths, which continue to bring in people who don't have sensitivities, but really love this idea of a fragrance that's just better for me in general. Right. Because we're all questioning what's in these products while at the same time bringing in this group that's written off fragrances. But I think if you focus only on them, it's a much slower build and just like nailing your emotional hook. The idea of, like, you know, fragrance you can finally wear and finding influencers who, you know, previously have never been able to wear a fragrance. Finally, I can wear fragrance again.
- [14:57]
D
Right.
- [14:58]
A
So, Eric, what you're saying is, is that it's probably a better idea to try and appeal to everybody who's looking for a quote, unquote, better for you fragrance or better for you products. I mean, one of the things that I think Christina would probably benefit from is having some kind of clinical study. And if that's not possible, like, even dermatologists who could speak to the products, like testimonials or even customer testimonials. I mean, your website's great, but I don't see see any of that. Maybe I'm missing It is that something that you're exploring and that you might want to try?
- [15:32]
C
Yeah. We have done several clinical tests. Actually, you can imagine clinical tests are quite expensive. So we've done some on sensitive skin first and they have come out with just incredible results. So we do share those with dermatologists that we speak with. We're also trying to work with, with some third parties to kind of like get different seals and everything. But again, it's quite expensive because there's just so many tests involved. And then I think one of the things we found is a lot of times these tests are also testing on healthy skin. And so since we're trying to prove something works for skin that's been really sensitized, it's also more expensive to recruit that population. So we are working on it, but it's taking a little bit longer.
- [16:23]
B
Yeah. One other idea too. So you're currently working with Anthropologie and I would imagine you're starting to think about Ulta and really working with a retailer to create this, you know, fragrance safe. At the end of the day, like, you're not really building a brand, you're building a completely new category. And I would really brand that category maybe around the idea of allergen free fragrance and make that a destination inside of a retailer. So if you sit down with Ulta, it's not about selling Haven, which by the way, is a great brand name. I think, again, the design is beautiful and you can really see your beauty background coming through. But if you sit down with an Ulta or a Target and work with them on this idea that Haven is not a new brand, it's really a new category. And then brand that category and then position yourself, of course, as the leader of that category.
- [17:08]
C
That's really great. I love that.
- [17:10]
B
I really think this idea of allergy free is relevant to everybody because it really means it's a safer fragrance. I think you want to really build this fragrance back to like, at the end of the day, it is the most beautiful, amazing, like it just wins as a great fragrance that, oh, happens to be allergen free. That core audience who is really a need for them. I think that's a marketing tactic that is going to be a harder climb of convincing them that actually now fragrance is safe for you.
- [17:41]
C
Yeah.
- [17:42]
B
But I think ultimately turn this into a big brand. You've got to serve both audiences. And look, most innovation comes from like really serving the needs of an extreme user that then you apply that to a general population and fragrance. The challenge with fragrance is. Yes, it's a big category. It's growing, but it's insanely crowded. And I think the allergen free really gives you a meaningful point of difference that's both rational as well as the emotion of selling a beautiful, fine fragrance.
- [18:10]
A
The brand is called Haven. Christina Payne, Good luck. Thanks for calling in.
- [18:13]
C
Thank you.
- [18:13]
B
Thanks Christina. Great to meet you.
- [18:15]
A
All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. About a year ago I got these really cool hooded sweatshirts for everyone on the How I Built this Team and I got them custom embroidered with the show's logo. Whenever I wear it, people are constantly asking where can I buy that? And well, sorry, you can't get them because I had them custom made. But if you want something just as cool for your team, vistaprint offers everything you need to confidently and effortlessly create branded apparel. Choose from a range of options that fit your style to business and budget because your team deserves the best. Whether you're looking for branded merch, for giveaways or for team uniforms, get the best apparel for your business at vistaprint. You can also get lots of other custom products like drinkware, stickers, notebooks, pens, T shirts. So much more to help you market your business your way. Vistaprint print your possible right now, new customers get 20% off with code new20@vistaprint.com if you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help. Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online@instagram.com teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts did you know that Apple has a new tool for helping businesses like yours grow? It's called Apple Business and it's free to get started today, just claim your location and control how your business shows up across Apple apps including Maps, Wallet and more. And starting this summer in the US And Canada, you'll have a new way to show up to an even wider audience of Potential customers with ads on Apple maps. Sign up for Apple Business today. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is serial entrepreneur Eric Ryan. And we're taking your calls. And, Eric, you ready for our next one?
- [21:04]
B
Let's do it.
- [21:05]
A
All right, let's bring our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Eric Ryan, co founder of Method and founder of many other products. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, please.
- [21:16]
E
Hey, Guy and Eric, it's an honor to be with you guys. I learned a lot from this show, so thanks very much for the opportunity. My name is James Chambliss. I'm from Orange County, California. I'm the founder of Pigeon Toes, which is a fun kids flip flop brand. Our goal is to build the world's raddest, comfiest kids fly flip flops. And our core focus and motto is built for comfort for kids.
- [21:37]
A
Welcome to the show, James. So tell what what makes your flip flops right and what makes them different or special from other flip flops?
- [21:45]
E
Yeah, we've done a couple of core things, which one of the number one complaints of kids for the first time getting into flip flops is the scratchy toe cord between their toes. And so when we did some research and starting this out, we found that out, and so we've come up with just a really pillowy, soft toe cord. And then the second thing that kind of helps us stick out is kids can customize their strap design. And so what happens on our website is they're able to choose their flavor, which is the color. So that's the first choice. And then they're able to choose their topping, which is the strap design, which is kind of fun for them.
- [22:19]
A
Oh, cool. So it's customizable. So it's not just like, ready to wear. You can actually design the flip flop. Okay, cool. And tell me, you said you launched it last year. Have you been in the apparel business or in footwear or how did this start?
- [22:34]
E
Yeah, so I've actually been in the apparel business. I started my core company out of college, and so I've been doing this for a while. I started with screen printing, doing mainly T shirts and delivering them to the dorms. And, you know, it's kind of a funny story, but I used to put the T shirts in my oven in my kitchen because I didn't have a big conveyor belt oven to cure the ink.
- [22:52]
A
Right.
- [22:53]
E
And so I Would deliver them to the dorms hot out of the oven. So I've been doing that for a while now. I do some help with branding and kind of the brand imagery, which is what I really love to do. And that's kind of what I did with pigeon toes.
- [23:04]
A
All right, you launched last year. Tell me how you're doing so far. Give me a sense of, like, you know, of your sales, like quarterly sales.
- [23:13]
E
Yeah. So far Today we're about 15k and we really got going end of Q4 last year and started hitting the ground running then.
- [23:21]
A
Got it. Okay, before we dive in further, tell us your question.
- [23:25]
E
Yeah. So in a saturated market where I'm competing with brands with far more resources for content generation, plus the ability to undercut my $39 per pair price point, what can I do to build brand awareness and reach more customers?
- [23:40]
A
All right, Eric Ryan. Pigeon toes. Flip flops. Customizable and more comfortable. Questions or thoughts for James?
- [23:49]
B
Disappointed? You're not solving the biggest problem with kids flip flops. Losing them. The number of times I had five more flip flops, I finally got to the point. On a vacation, I always pack two pairs for every kid, knowing that we would need a backup. I love. I'm just looking at the website too, and I love the branding, the overall approach. Let me ask you a question. At the heart of it, what are you really solving?
- [24:13]
E
That's a good question. I mean, I'd say that in the industry, I saw a gap where all the kids flip flops were mainly adult lines dabbling in kids. And so I really wanted to come in and say, hey, we are the best done kids flip flop brand, dedicated to creating awesome kids flip flops.
- [24:31]
B
It's, you know, really trying to win on a product. Iteration is tough because it almost becomes more of an invention than building a brand. I love the name Pigeon, by the way. I don't know if you can just drop toes and just like pigeon and just gives you a little bit more space to go. But even the idea of pigeon flip flops and that I think will help you unlock again, like this bigger idea of like, what do you own? Do you own summer? Do you own kids first flip flop moment? Do you own kids shoes? But I think there's a bigger idea here that you're kind of working on first, though, is you got to win in this category. I think the customization really is. I think making that the hero is super, super smart. That's what's going to drive content. And I would really focus as much as you can on driving customization and then telling those stories. The other part I'm really, I think you could do well here as part of customization is licensing. Licensing, especially with retailers, is a great quick shortcut to really build. Even though you're borrowing someone else's brand equity, but particularly for kids, bringing in kids characters and being able to custom on top of that, I think would really get that flywheel going and be able to drive a lot more content around it.
- [25:41]
E
That sounds like a lot of fun.
- [25:43]
A
Yeah, I agree. I saw. I must have been on Instagram or something. A shop somewhere in Southeast Asia where you go in and there are flip flops on like a wheel and you spin the wheel and you can stop it on a. Maybe you've seen this and then you can pick the strap and I saw that and you could create these customizable flip flops. Now you're doing it here. And so when I look at this, I think this is an experiential business. I think the direct to consumer is great and I hope it really, you know, blows up. But I think this is something that if you can kind of turn it into almost like a build a bear kind of thing. I mean, that's probably not the best analogy, but maybe it's something kids do on vacation. Like they know they're going to go to a shop that has this product available and they can, you know, spin a wheel and pick their flip flop and then, you know, spin another wheel and it's. And maybe they could even put their name on it. To me, this feels like an experience that you can do with your kids on vacation. Right. And it's like choose your own adventure. So it's not just a practical thing that you're going to want and wear, but it's a fun experience. And so I wonder whether you said you're in Orange County. I mean, could you or have you tried to do a live experience, like even at a farmer's market or at a, you know, sort of a fair or something where people can actually make them in real time.
- [27:01]
E
Yeah, I've had the thought and it's a really good idea, which kind of pushes me to want to do it more, you know, because I've really been trying through my website, how do I paint that picture? You know? And so I thought up close I really might be able to see people's reaction to it and do something like that. But we could do it. Yeah, it's a good idea.
- [27:18]
B
Yeah, I think that's the gold. I think everything is built around Customization. And Guy, I love that too, because you could do hotel activations and that then drives your entire content strategy. And then if you could layer on licensing on top of it to just continue to drive freshness and relevancy. And at the end of the day, I think you're not selling flip flops, you're really selling summer and celebrating summer. And summer sometimes is on a vacation during the winter. But that I think will give you the foundation that will start then unlock a bigger brand idea here as well.
- [27:50]
A
Yeah. Can you imagine Eric being on vacation with your family somewhere and in the hotel lobby there's somebody who offers this product and you've got a kid and they're like, I want those flip flops. Right. And you would do it. I mean, make your flip flops in 10 minutes. How long does it take, by the way, to make a pair of these, James?
- [28:10]
E
Gosh, a few minutes per pair right now, which we're hopefully will speed up.
- [28:15]
A
A few minutes is great. I mean, if it's part of an activity and it's customizable and even down the road you get your name printed on the, you know, on it. What's the, on the strap? I mean, you can imagine all kinds of activations.
- [28:28]
E
Oh yeah.
- [28:29]
B
How hard would it be to create event teams that go into kind of building on Guy's idea? So you send event teams into hotels during peak moments and you use that to not only drive sales but also drive content that ultimately fuels your marketing.
- [28:44]
E
There's a process right now with the straps which is a little more labor intensive and takes a little bit of a skill set. And so that's my only concern. So we would have to figure out a way to streamline that and make it a little more foolproof, I think.
- [28:58]
A
But have you done it yourself, anything like that so far?
- [29:02]
E
No, I love the idea. Yeah. And I. There's plenty of them down here and I think doing that would be really fun and I know my kids will love it.
- [29:09]
A
And as Eric said, it's a chance to create content and to encourage people to do it. You know, scan this QR code, show us your design, show us your flip flops feature, Put the kit, you know, and then eventually on your webpage, you want to see kids wearing these things. You want to see what it looks like on kids feet.
- [29:24]
E
I love it. Yeah, it's great. It's a great idea.
- [29:26]
A
Eric, final thoughts for James.
- [29:28]
B
If you can create cost neutral marketing through events, that I think you solve your problem of how to create a flywheel Here. And then how I agree with Guy is like, this is you're really selling an experience. And any way you can layer on that experience. Vacation kits, summer bundles. And I think ultimately, as a parent, like, that would have been the best souvenir to come back with with kids.
- [29:50]
A
Yep.
- [29:51]
E
Got it.
- [29:51]
A
And useful, too, right? Exactly. Not just another piece of junk or like another stuffed animal that just gathers dust. Yeah.
- [29:58]
E
Yeah.
- [29:59]
A
Awesome. The brand's called Pigeon Toes. James Chambliss, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.
- [30:03]
E
Thank you, guys. It was a pleasure.
- [30:04]
A
Thanks, man.
- [30:05]
B
Thanks, James.
- [30:06]
A
Thanks. I mean, you've gone through this with your kids, and at some point you're like, so you've had this thing on your shelf for, like, nine years that you bought, you know, at a souvenir shop, and what are you gonna do with it? And so eventually, they're just gonna go off to college and just leave it in their room, and then they're gonna box it up and put it in your basement, and then one day you're going to say, hey, you bought this for, like, $7 on vacation. And I've been storing it in my basement for 19 years. And anyway, flip flops now.
- [30:37]
B
And every parent loves flip flops, and there's nothing cuter than little flip flops with a kid's name on it and some sort of customization. So, like, you know, parents will just eat this up. But I think that's the right approach, the way he's thinking about it.
- [30:50]
A
Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. Hi, I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. You may have heard the best voice in show business, Morgan Freeman, talking about a serious and underdiagnosed heart condition that's often missed. Attr, Cardiac amyloidosis, or attrcm. It's a condition that can greatly disrupt your life with symptoms like severe fatigue, shortness of breath, and carpal tunnel. If left untreated, ATTRCM may become serious, leading to a shorter lifespan. A truby helps adults with ATTRCM live longer and have fewer hospitalizations due to heart issues, so you can focus more on living for what you love. Tell your doctor if you're pregnant, plan to become pregnant, or are breastfeeding, and about the medications you take. The most common common side effects were mild and included diarrhea and abdominal pain. If you have attrcm, talk to your cardiologist about a Truby and visit attruby.com podcast that's a T T R U B Y.com podcast. To learn more, it's time to get busy living. Brought to you by Bridge Bio Work can be a little weird. I've had plenty of those moments early in my career. And honestly, even later, I remember stretches where I wasn't totally sure what the next step was supposed to be. And that's the thing. Work isn't always a straight line. And that's where LinkedIn comes in. LinkedIn helps you tap into ideas and insights from people who've been where you are, connect with others in your field, grow your network, and access tools that can actually help you find the right next step. Whether you're just getting started thinking about a change or trying to accelerate where you are, LinkedIn is built to support you at every stage because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit LinkedIn.com Hibt to learn more. Welcome back to the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Eric Ryan, who founded Methodology Welly and so many more brands. Eric, are you ready for our next call?
- [33:23]
B
Let's get into it.
- [33:24]
A
All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice line. You're on with Eric Ryan, co founder of Method, founder of many other Brands, Welly, Ollie, etc. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
- [33:37]
D
Thank you, Guy. And thank you, Eric. My name is Ben Forrest and I'm calling out of Deland, Florida. And I'm the founder of Reserved for Humans, which is a brand that is exploring a new category in jewelry. And our first product is the Spire pendant, which is a light up crystal necklace that is designed to reveal the hidden textures and colors inside of natural stone. The Spire is the start to a broader line of illuminated jewelry with more designs currently in development.
- [34:05]
A
Awesome, Ben, thanks for. Thanks for calling in. So it's a crystal that you wear around your neck and it has like a light in it. Like you flip a switch and a light goes on.
- [34:14]
D
Yeah. Currently you twist it to turn it on and it has a very soft light that lasts, surprisingly a long period of time, over a week straight. Or you can use it sparingly.
- [34:24]
A
Got it. And when did you launch this business?
- [34:27]
D
I soft launched it last year in August. I say soft because I started with low quantity. The way it was machine designed allowed me to start small, kind of test the market, not go broke with the tooling and everything. Yeah.
- [34:42]
A
And tell me who are your customers? Like what, who is, who's buying these things?
- [34:47]
D
So you would think music festivals, parties, everyone that's their first thing is like, go to the music festivals. And actually all of our marketing's on meta right now because I can't go past my bandwidth. It's just me doing the marketing. And our customers are very, very diverse in age and culture and background. And it's. It's just surprising to learn how liquid the market is for this thing.
- [35:09]
A
And how have you done so far in sales?
- [35:12]
D
Yeah, so after soft launching, I kind of stress tested the ads and my high school friends and my mom just assembling these and December we did 92,000 in revenue.
- [35:24]
A
$92,000 in December?
- [35:27]
D
Yeah.
- [35:28]
A
Wow. Have you replicated that since?
- [35:30]
D
I actually turned everything off to go right to China. Spent two months there to get the assembly and work with factories and prepare for three pl, and just now got back actually a few days ago and starting to turn the ads back on and prepare to skip.
- [35:51]
E
Wow.
- [35:51]
A
Okay, this is interesting. All right, we got a lot of questions for you, but before we get there, what's your question for us?
- [35:57]
D
Yeah, so the spider pendant appears to be the first of its kind, and we've already seen early traction. My concern is that if this truly becomes a new category in jewelry mainstream, like I really, truly believe it will, larger companies with more resources and speed can come in, especially given its hardware. So should I raise outside capital now and expand the product line and build the brand around it or just continue bootstrapping and don't listen to that little voice that's like, hurry up. Got it.
- [36:28]
A
Okay, Eric, Ryan, I want to bring you in here. Interesting product. $90,000 in one month. I mean, wow.
- [36:35]
B
Now, Ben, what I love what you're doing is you're putting a fresh spin on jewelry. I mean, you're really creating digital jewelry. And jewelry has always been about expressing oneself. And what I love about the light approach is you're actually allowing people to express how they feel in that moment. And I think there's something really, really powerful in that. But you're also running the risk of becoming a one hit novelty and also just getting run over by fast followers from China and Etsy. So I think being really thoughtful about how you build a brand around this and really laddering up to like, what is the big idea here? Because the big idea is not jewelry that lights up. I think the big idea is how this allows you to express yourself in a way that's always been inherent and true to jewelry. But it hasn't been done before. And you're just applying a modern approach to that. When people use the product, how do they really express what they love about it? What does it give them?
- [37:32]
D
I think it kind of just scratches that itch. Your inner child. And that sounds silly, but that's kind of how it started, is just the curiosity and the wonder behind this. This object which you can assign meaning. And I think it also, it, like, invites curiosity. So a lot of people, they tell us they get so many compliments, and I see it myself wearing it. It just kind of stands out. So people are like, what is that? How does. Does that light up? Is that a crystal? And it just, like, creates a moment by just wearing it, too.
- [38:04]
B
And then the capital question. Have you started to talk to investors yet?
- [38:08]
D
I haven't. One just kind of, like, saw our story one day, like, in the midst of December, and I just jumped the gun and, like, sent him some, and he apparently loved it, but I didn't want to seem desperate and, like, keep following up. I don't know when the. The right time is, and that's what brought me here.
- [38:24]
B
Well, one thing I can tell you is the right time to raise money is when you don't need it. And you're also kind of solving an imaginary problem right now, which is to take capital or not take capital, but you don't know yet if you can even raise capital for this. And so my advice would be, don't worry about the decision to raise or not raise. I would start reaching out to investors and really go into those conversations, not trying to prove yourself, but really improve yourself, like, going in and really listening and understanding. And the great thing is, like, you don't actually have to ask for the money, because if anybody's excited about it, of course they'll always offer to invest. That's what investors do. But I think right now I would put aside the decision whether I have to raise capital or not, and I would just start taking meetings and really use that to learn. And then if you have an investor that really wants to move forward with you, then make the decision whether to take that investment. And the worst case is you don't need the capital yet. You want to keep bootstrapping it, but you've started to warm up an investor base. So when you do need the money, you're not starting cold.
- [39:25]
A
Yeah, my feeling, it's slightly different, which is I don't think you're in a position. I think it's a great idea to talk to investors. I Don't think you're in a position to raise money. And 92,000 in a month is incredible. But people want to see that repeated, right? They want to see consistency. The other thing is, is that. And I'm just going to put this very bluntly and then I'm going to follow up with, I'm going to give you some bad news, but then I'm going to follow up with some good news, which is I don't believe you have a defensible product. This is a product that can be replicated. Right. The good news is if you build a brand around it, then you create that moat. And it sounds like that's really where you want to put your energy, which I think is where you absolutely should be putting your energy and the brand around this thing. I mean, I'm not a crystal wearer, but I can imagine the kind of person that wants to wear a glow in the dark crystal. And I mean this with all sincerity, not in any way like, oh, that's a sort of a weird hippie. But I mean, it's a person who wants to be part of a community, right? What does it mean to wear this? It's almost like people who wear fancy watches, you know, people who wear certain fancy brands of watches, they will recognize somebody else wearing that watch and they will oftentimes have a conversation like across. I've seen this happen in restaurants and bars, you know, or some people wave at each other when they're driving the same car. That's the community you want to build. And so I think that you have a lot of work, but really interesting work ahead of you to focus on that community aspect of this, of what these are. Because somebody else can come up with light up crystals. So now the question is, well, why are they going to buy your crystals? Because they're reserved for humans, right? This is your brand. So that's where I think you are right now. And I agree with Eric. You're not in a place to raise money and you shouldn't be. But having those conversations certainly doesn't hurt. I just don't know if you're going to have the bandwidth to do that and build a brand and focus on advertising and production and et cetera, et cetera.
- [41:24]
D
I love that. Thank you. And maybe I'll take up Eric's advice and take these meetings when I have the bandwidth, just for practice and maybe something will happen.
- [41:34]
B
That's right. You know, build those relationships and just get as much free learning as you can while you're on this journey.
- [41:40]
A
Eric, you also, it's amazing how many categories you have experience in and you built brands and you have experience in jewelry as well. How do you, I mean it's, I'm putting you on the spot a little bit here, but how would you think about starting to build a brand around, you know, a light up crystal around a pendant around your neck?
- [41:58]
B
It's a really exciting challenge, but it's not an easy challenge. And that's why I was going back to like, it's, how does this product make you feel when you wear it and how does it allow you to express your feelings and to other people? And I think in a lot of ways you've kind of created the modern day mood ring. And if there's a way to be able to really build into it that you can express your mood or your energy on the spot through it. And I think that does. What Guy said is like, then it creates conversations. So when you're in a social setting or a bar and somebody recognizes it, that's a great conversation starter. But I think that's, that's really the big idea here is like I said, jewelry's always been about expressing individuality and personality and what you care about. But no one's ever been able to express their mood in real time through jewelry. And now because you can apply digital technology to do that, I think that's really the big idea and that's what drives the community that Guy is referring to.
- [42:55]
D
Yeah.
- [42:56]
A
And I'm thinking like, you want to have people posting photos of them at Burning man or I don't know, just festivals. And I'm just spitballing here, but like a desert festival, you know, to me it's like that's, it's a community of people who are open, artistic, sort of free spirited and spiritual maybe. There's a lot of different directions you can go in. And one thing is, have you tapped into your customer base? Have you had a chance to ask who you like, who are you, what do you like, what are you interested in? Have you? And if you haven't, then you should start to do that.
- [43:34]
D
Yeah. So our ads are quite different and I've used different models and different like the festival vibe. I went into Bonnaroo and filmed and did reactions and stuff. But a lot of them are like, I have a model friend that's wearing a denim jacket, very normal clothes and he's got some other chains on walking in slow motion. And that's hitting a whole different market of just normal, not crystal lovers and music festival rave Goers. It's just like it fits in with like, oh, like that could be my style. And you can wear it with anything.
- [44:11]
A
It's like, Eric, it's like how like super high end, you know, sort of high fashion. People wear Hokas. Like they're wearing hokas with their outfit. Because Hoka became a thing too, even though it's a consumer brand that anybody can buy.
- [44:27]
B
Pretty much, yeah. You know, I think a big idea of digital jewelry is going to become a real thing because it allows you to enhance the appearance of it. If it's done in a really subtle way, which I think is what you're trying to do. The people who are using it and expressing their energy in real moments, in real life, that is like the community you're building. And that's the big idea.
- [44:46]
D
I love that. Thank you.
- [44:46]
A
Awesome. Ben Forrest. Brand's called reserved for humans. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.
- [44:50]
D
Thank you so much.
- [44:51]
B
Thanks, Ben.
- [44:52]
A
All right, Eric, now that you are a vc, sounds so fancy, doesn't it? Yeah, fancy sounds very fancy. What? Now that you have all of this sort of knowledge about how to run businesses, how to start them, and I've asked you a version of this in the past, but I'm wondering if you have another piece of advice for yourself for like, you know, when you were starting out and also when you were talking to investors, you know, now that you're on the other side of the table, what would have been helpful for you to know that, you know, now,
- [45:26]
B
you know, I think a common theme in almost everybody we heard today is just confidence. Like all these people are clearly accomplished and have that ability. But the hardest part is the mental game and that self confidence to keep going when things get hard. And at the end of the day, you know, it's not the capital risk or the time risk, it's really your personal reputation risk and willing to put that out there. But it's the mind games. And I find too as I've moved to the venture side. So I use the word coach. Like so much of my job is to just almost play therapist and really help people stay confident and focused on the right things in this journey. And that's the part I wish I had more help with in those early years.
- [46:06]
A
Yeah. Awesome. Eric, thanks so much for coming back onto the show.
- [46:09]
B
Always a pleasure guy.
- [46:11]
A
That's Eric Ryan. He's co founder of Method, Ollie Welly and many more brands. And by the way, if you haven't heard our Method episode with Eric and his co founder Adam, you gotta go back and check it out. It's great story and here's one of my favorite moments from that episode. I read at one point Eric that to prove that this really was non toxic, you actually drank it.
- [46:31]
B
Yeah. So I was in London, you know, I love the British press. I was so skeptical and she said is it, you know, safe enough to drink? I was like, sure. So we both took a shot at the toilet bowl cleaner.
- [46:42]
A
Okay.
- [46:43]
B
And then I immediately text Adam. Finally he got back to me and was like, hey, just drink the toilet bowl cleaner. I'm going to be okay. Right?
- [46:54]
A
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for for free@guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Nour Gill with music composed by Ramtin Irabloui. It was edited by Casey Herman, and our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, John Isabella, Kerry Thompson, Chris Masini, Katherine Cipher, Rommel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. Hi, I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab.