Advice Line with Gary Hirshberg of Stonyfield

Summary

Podcast Summary: How I Built This with Guy Raz – "Advice Line with Gary Hirshberg of Stonyfield"

Episode Information

• Title: Advice Line with Gary Hirshberg of Stonyfield
• Host: Guy Raz
• Guest: Gary Hirshberg, Co-founder of Stonyfield Organic
• Release Date: November 14, 2024

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz welcomes back Gary Hirshberg, the visionary co-founder of Stonyfield Organic. Building upon their previous conversation in 2017, this episode delves deeper into Gary's entrepreneurial journey, the challenges faced, and the invaluable advice he offers to budding entrepreneurs navigating the complexities of building a sustainable brand.

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Gary Hirshberg’s Journey with Stonyfield Organic

Gary Hirshberg reminisces about the early days of Stonyfield Organic, highlighting the numerous obstacles the company nearly faced insolvency. He shares heartfelt anecdotes, such as "On many occasions I would tiptoe over to the office to call my mother-in-law to have a chat to see if I could borrow another $3,500 or $2,500 to make ends meet," reflecting the precarious financial situation the company endured ([51:57]).

Gary emphasizes the importance of perseverance and maintaining enthusiasm despite repeated failures. He cites a Winston Churchill-inspired philosophy: “Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm” ([06:00]).

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. Building Retail Relationships ([07:09] - [08:48])

   • Consumer Loyalty: Gary advises startups to build strong consumer loyalty, which in turn can attract retailers. By creating a dedicated customer base, entrepreneurs can present a compelling case to retailers about existing demand.
   • Influencer Marketing: Even before it was a buzzword, Stonyfield utilized influencers to bring people to their farms, fostering a direct connection with consumers.
   • Mission-Driven Brands: Gary underscores the significance of aligning business practices with a broader mission. For Stonyfield, this meant prioritizing organic products and reducing carbon footprints, which resonate strongly with today’s environmentally conscious consumers.

2. Evolving Consumer Preferences ([08:48] - [10:06])

   • Taste vs. Values: While taste remains paramount in the food industry, Gary notes that modern consumers also heavily weigh environmental and social missions. Transparency and ethical practices can differentiate a brand in a crowded market.
   • Market Segmentation: He points out that different consumer segments value different aspects. For instance, hardcore health-conscious consumers might prioritize product mission over others who might focus solely on taste or price.

3. Strategic Focus for Startups ([14:14] - [19:09])

   • Focus on Core Business: Gary emphasizes the necessity for startups to prioritize core business operations before expanding into mission-driven projects or secondary business models. Ensuring financial stability allows for sustainable growth and the ability to pursue larger missions.
   • Brand Management: A strong brand is crucial. Gary advises dedicating resources to cementing the brand’s trajectory and protecting gross margins to maintain financial health.

4. Branding and Market Positioning ([19:09] - [22:19])

   • Celebrity Endorsements: Leveraging high-profile endorsements can propel a brand into mainstream recognition. Gary suggests partnerships with celebrities who align with the brand’s mission to enhance visibility.
   • Mission as Brand Identity: He advocates for integrating the brand’s mission into its core identity, making it synonymous with the product itself. This approach not only builds loyalty but also creates a unique market niche.

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Advice for Entrepreneurs: Insights from Callers

The episode features insightful interactions between Guy Raz, Gary Hirshberg, and callers seeking advice on their entrepreneurial ventures. Below are summaries of each caller’s business and the tailored advice provided:

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Caller 1: Kate Havsat Kasad – Range Revolution [10:40]

Business Overview: Kate Havsat Kasad is the founder of Range Revolution, a leather company sourcing 100% of its hides from verified regenerative ranches. Her company aims to address the massive waste of cowhides by repurposing them into sustainable leather products like wallets and bags.

Key Challenges:

• Deciding between focusing on direct-to-consumer branded products versus expanding into B2B by supplying regenerative hides to other businesses.
• Managing limited resources and determining the best strategic focus for growth.

Advice Provided:

• Prioritize Brand Strength: Gary advises Kate to first cement her direct-to-consumer brand. Ensuring strong brand management will provide a stable foundation before diversifying into B2B operations.
• Leverage Mission-Driven Narrative: Emphasize the sustainability mission to attract both consumers and potential B2B partners who value environmental responsibility.
• Strategic Resource Allocation: Focus resources on activities that secure immediate growth and financial stability, allowing long-term mission-driven expansions once the core business is robust.

Notable Quotes:

• Gary: “Your cred is your brand… there’s a bigger mission here than just selling purses and wallets” ([21:01]).
• Guy: “The hardest thing is building the brand. Turning that into a brand that people know and want to buy” ([22:39]).

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Caller 2: Jamie Poe – Poe & Co. Folk Foods [27:49]

Business Overview: Jamie Poe co-owns Poe & Co. Folk Foods, which produces vegan dried camping meals. These meals are shelf-stable and designed for convenience, requiring only boiling water to prepare.

Key Challenges:

• Reaching the appropriate target audience who may not be aware of their product category.
• Balancing product development between catering to family-oriented campers and hardcore backpackers who have different nutritional needs.

Advice Provided:

• Refine Target Audience: Gary suggests clearly defining the primary consumer segment and tailoring product offerings to meet their specific needs, whether that’s gourmet convenience for casual campers or high-protein meals for backpackers.
• Enhance Marketing Strategies: Focus on direct consumer engagement through events, partnerships with hiking clubs, and leveraging online communities to build word-of-mouth marketing.
• Develop a Succinct Elevator Pitch: Create a compelling one-liner that highlights the unique value proposition, such as “Delicious, gourmet meals ready in 20 minutes, perfect for your outdoor adventures.”

Notable Quotes:

• Gary: “You need to build word-of-mouth, build passion from the consumer” ([38:23]).
• Guy: “There’s always room for something better” ([38:23]).

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Caller 3: Diana Dar – Colt Crackers [42:18]

Business Overview: Diana Dar is the CEO and founder of Colt Crackers, an organic seeded cracker company. Their products are made with six different seeds, catering to health-conscious consumers by being gluten-free, vegan, and organic.

Key Challenges:

• Delegating day-to-day operational tasks to focus on sales and product development.
• Hiring a multifaceted team member capable of handling HR, operations, and facility management.

Advice Provided:

• Defining the Role: Gary advises Diana to clarify the specific needs and responsibilities of the role she wants to hire for, focusing on candidates who align with the company’s mission and possess a versatile skill set.
• Networking and Recruitment: Utilize existing retail channels and community connections to find suitable candidates. Engaging with local communities and leveraging platforms like community colleges can uncover hidden talent.
• Incentivize and Retain Talent: Implement a compensation structure that includes a competitive salary, equity incentives, and profit-sharing to attract and retain dedicated employees.

Notable Quotes:

• Gary: “Don’t underestimate the power of that mission to attract the right person” ([48:26]).
• Diana: “I need time to work on it” ([45:13]).

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Concluding Insights

As the episode wraps up, Gary Hirshberg reflects on his entrepreneurial journey, sharing wisdom for aspiring entrepreneurs:

• Focus and Prioritization: Gary emphasizes the importance of doing fewer things better. Entrepreneurs often take on too many tasks, leading to burnout and inefficiency. He advises prioritizing core activities that drive growth and stability.

• Chemistry in Hiring: Finding the right team member is crucial. Beyond skills, cultural fit and shared passion for the mission are vital for long-term collaboration and success.

Final Notable Quote:

• Gary: “A big part of our curve to getting on our own feet was our own excessive imagination and optimism, taking on too many things. I can’t do it all” ([50:54]).

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Conclusion

This episode of How I Built This offers a treasure trove of insights from Gary Hirshberg, blending his firsthand experiences with practical advice for entrepreneurs across various stages of their journey. From building a resilient brand to strategic hiring and maintaining focus, Gary’s guidance serves as a beacon for those striving to create impactful and sustainable businesses.

For more inspiring stories and expert advice, tune into How I Built This with Guy Raz and explore the journeys of the world’s most innovative entrepreneurs.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wonderyplus subscribers can listen to How I built this early and ad free right now. Join Wonderyplus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This episode is brought to you by American Express. Business owners like you can understand the importance of having the right tools to pursue your passions. Tools like the American Express Business Platinum Card, the card that works just as hard as you do. With its world class business and travel benefits, you can get more for your business wherever it it takes you. The AMEX Business Platinum Card offers a flexible spending limit that Adapts with your business plus access to over $1,000 annually in business and travel value. And with the ability to earn 1.5 times membership reward points on select purchases, you can take your business to the next level. See how the Amex Business Platinum Card gives business owners like you the tools and rewards to do more of what you love. Not all purchases will be approved. Enrollment requ terms and points cap apply. Learn [e-mail] AmExBusiness you know what I love most about listening on Audible? It lets your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. There's more to imagine when you listen. I've recently been listening to Table for Two by Amor Toles, an incredible collection of shorts, stories and a novella that takes us back to a character from his book Rules of Civility. And as an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.combilt or text built to 500500 that's audible.combilt or text bilt to 500500 to try audible free for 30 days audible.com built traveling to see your fave.

[Gary Hirschberg]

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[Guy Raz]

This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform featuring email, SMS reviews and more. This Black Friday Cyber Monday make every moment Count with Klaviyo. Learn more at K L A v I y o.com bfcm hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Gary Hirschberg. He's the founder of the yogurt and dairy company Stonyfield. Gary, thanks so much for coming back on to How I Built this. Great to have you.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Good to be with you Guy.

[Guy Raz]

You were first on How I Built this way back in the second year of the show, 2017. And it's amazing, I mean how you started the business as a one cow operation on a rundown farm in New Hampshire. And of course, for those of you listening, if you haven't heard it, we will put a link to that episode in the podcast description. One of my favorite things about Gary's story was how many times Gary, you guys almost went under. How much failure you endured in the first decade of trying to keep Stonyfield afloat. For example, at one point I remember one of the dairy farms you were working with like almost stole the company, the business. I'm laughing. It wasn't funny at the time. You had to borrow millions of dollars, including begging your in laws to give you loans. Almost ruined your marriage. But you made a product that people really liked. I remember you described it as Ambrosia. Every time I see Stonyfield, I think of your voice saying Ambrosia. And that is ultimately what saved Stonyfield and then ended up turning into one of the biggest organic yogurt brands in the world.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Well, I thought you were going to say that. There were some times when we almost succeeded that was actually more the ratio. We call ourselves a 40 year overnight success.

[Guy Raz]

It's like the Winston Churchill thing, you know, you'd go from failure to failure until you succeed.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I think the Churchill line is wisdom is something you get just after you needed it.

[Guy Raz]

Well, that's one. But there's the failure one too, which I'm going to quote for you because I can't always REM it by heart. But the quote is, success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm.

[Gary Hirschberg]

No. Loss of enthusiasm.

[Guy Raz]

Yes, that's the one. Yeah. Gary, before we get to bring in our callers, I'm curious because I think a lot of our callers today are going to try to figure out the best sales channels for their products and we'll address that. But at one point, I remember in our interview, you talked about how for your 30th birthday, you basically asked friends to go to their local market.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Pardon, sir?

[Guy Raz]

Bread and Circus. Okay. And you asked. You had them go in and ask them to carry Stonyfield yogurt. And it worked. The companies eventually called you and said.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Hey, it was my old Ultimate Frisbee team who had come up to the farm to celebrate. We had finished milking. I asked them on a Sunday at my birthday party to go down and ask for the yogurt. And on Wednesday, the buyer called me and said, gary, I don't know what's going on, but demand has gone through the roof. Get that yogurt in here right away.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Gary Hirschberg]

And we did. We delivered that afternoon.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. A great strategy. The retail landscape has changed a little bit since then. What would your general advice to founders be for trying to get their products into a retailer like that today, like a Whole Foods? I mean, does that same strategy still work?

[Gary Hirschberg]

It really does. Because in the end, the retailer and the manufacturer, beholden to the very same client, the consumer is who we all work for. And so if you can. My advice to any entrepreneur trying to sell a CPG product, food or otherwise, is build loyalty. In Stonyfield's case, because of our gross margins, we never really had the ability to spend on advertising, but we were always happy to spend on influencers bringing people up to the farms. We still do to this day.

[Guy Raz]

Pre influencer marketing. Before we even had that word.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Well, yes, we were actually the first food company I know to hire a blogger back in the day. But the point is to talk to your consumer. Consider it a conversation. I. I call it having a handshake with your consumer. And whether that's on mission or on Product or on taste or price. But you got to have that loyalty and then they will pull it, they will help you to pull in. There's nothing better that you can say to a retailer than hey, I've got, you know, 10,000 online consumers in your market. You know, you've got a ready made marketplace surrounding you.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, you guys were an early pioneer in practices that are kind of the norm today. No pesticides, no hormones, you try not to depend on fossil fuels and at a certain point you were fossil fuel free. We've had versions of this discussion on the show before and I'm curious on your take, which is how much do you think today consumers really care about these things to the extent that it actually can make or break a product or does it really ultimately come down to taste and value?

[Gary Hirschberg]

It's always comes down to taste if it's food. I always used to say you could ship the yogurt 3,000 miles, but it was the last 18 inches that made all the difference. It has to because you're not going to get a second taste if it doesn't deliver on the first one. But honestly, mission, environmental, social mission is probably more important today than it was even back then. We often joke that we had a wonderful company back then, just no supply and no demand. You know, nobody knew what we were doing when we were talking about organic and the need to reduce our carbon footprints and so forth. But today you have a generation of consumers who index extremely high on this stuff. In fact, they're a pretty demanding audience. They kind of want it all. They demand absolute transparency on everything from animal cruelty or avoidance of cruelty to organics, avoidance of pesticides. Climate is extremely important. Equity, very important. And that's a real competitive advantage. That wasn't an advantage back in my day.

[Guy Raz]

See, I'm really surprised to hear you say that because I look at like fast fashion brands like Shein, which have just exploded in growth. And that just runs counter to everything that you've said. I mean I've seen, I see a lot of consumer brands that really are doing well that don't do any of the things you're describing.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Sure. I mean, look, it's all depending on your target. If you're seeking brand market leadership, if you're going to be trying to be number one, then of course price, convenience, taste in the case of food are, you know, predominate. But if you're trying to build loyalty and with a higher priced, lower gross margin item, then mission is your secret to success. That's your way of Getting trial, getting reached, and ultimately getting that holy grail of consumer products, which is word of mouth.

[Guy Raz]

Gary, what do you say? Let's take our first caller.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Wonderful.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. Hello, caller. Welcome to the advice line with me and Gary Hershberg. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Just a little bit.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Hi, guy. Hi, Gary. I'm so happy to be here with you both. My name is Kate Havsat Kasad. I'm calling in from Bend, Oregon, and I am the founder of Range Revolution. Range Revolution is a leather company which sources 100% of its hides from verified regenerative ranches. We were founded to address the massive waste dilemma that exists in the millions of hides which are thrown into the trash each year and to give consumers a leather product that they can feel good about.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Okay, so welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. Okay, so, Kate, you guys basically take cowhides that are otherwise gonna be just, like, incinerated or whatever, because a lot of cows are killed for meat, obviously, and you turn them into, like, wallets and bags, essentially.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah, Correct. Most people don't know this, but in current systems today, when we send a steer to slaughter, about 65% of the cattle carcass is being utilized.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Wow.

And then meanwhile, in the greater fashion movement, we have a giant globalized leather supply chain which is quite opaque and oftentimes is coming from systems that lead to deforestation.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Most of the beef that's consumed, it's just like the carcass is wasted. We're not using the. We're not turning into leather or anything. It's just being burned or thrown away.

[Gary Hirschberg]

35% of that carcass is going to, quote, waste. And I say, quote, because there's no such thing as waste.

[Guy Raz]

Why is that just so surprising to me? I mean, you would think that there's a lot of demand for leather goods out there.

[Gary Hirschberg]

You know, it's just as the consolidation of the industry has led to, say, these big four packers that really dominate the industry, we've lost a lot of the systems of aggregation that really focus on that middle. The missing middle, middle agriculture and middle processors. And so there's a need to rebuild that middle system of aggregation to get these hides back into the system.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. So, Kate, how did you start this business?

[Gary Hirschberg]

So this all really starts because my husband and I have been farming and ranching together for 11 years, and we've grown our farm and ranch called Cassad Family Farms, which is organic and regenerative We've grown it from a three acre market farm, doing CSAs and farmers markets, and to now we manage about 1400 acres. And as first generation farmer ranchers, I like to say we've learned not just how to grow food, but what it takes to save a farm. And in the same era of the past decade, I've been operating a custom hat business where I build custom western hats and fedoras. And it really just came down to I thought I was building something for Habstad Hat company and I wanted to find hides that align with my ethos, how I source my food, and how I live the rest of my life. And as soon as I started looking for regional hides, you know, regenerative hides, something that might have traceability, I realized it did not exist. And so that started this journey.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. I'm looking at your website and beautiful bags and purses and phone cases and wallets. So. And how. And you're selling these direct to consumer only right now?

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yep. We launched direct to consumer Softly in December of 2023, and then we launched our first kind of brand campaign earlier this year. And we got our first handful of independent boutique retailers this summer. And this will get into our question. There's kind of a second arm of this business that is percolating in my mind that has to do with both improving our cost of goods and also moving more of these hides.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. So go ahead and ask your question. Yeah.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Okay. So we've been approached by a lot of people who are so excited about the value proposition of these hides that they would like them for their business. And whether it's an interior designer, a furniture maker, other bag designers, or, you know, makers, I see this B2B play opportunity where we can provide a finished leather option to somebody. And as a small startup with limited resources, it's always a question of where we, you know, divide our attention and our resources. And so I'm curious, both you, guy and Gary, how you would think about dividing our attention on building the direct to consumer brand with finished products versus starting to really funnel resources into the material play.

[Guy Raz]

So you basically have more hides than you need right now.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Absolutely. There's a lot of volume that, you know, even when Range reaches $10 million in sales by 2028, we're still barely touching the volume that really needs to be pulled out of the supply chains, even just on the west coast.

[Guy Raz]

All right, you're projecting $10 million in sales in four years.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yep.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. Okay, but right now you've got a warehouse full of hides.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Well, I don't have a warehouse full of them yet. I have processors beating down my door saying, come take my hides. Come take my hides. But I know what's in that pipeline, and it's large. And the more we move, it improves the cost of goods for the brand. Of course.

[Guy Raz]

Gary, let's tackle Kate's question, But you may have some questions for her before we do that.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah. Hey, Kate. First of all, obviously, we are connected in lots of ways here. I love your. There is no such thing as waste. I add to that there's no such thing as away. It's another myth. So I know we speak the same language, and obviously the mission is close to my heart. What of those two of the bifurcated choices you just laid out? Which one excites you the most? What stirs you?

Because I'm such a producer, first farmer, first human. I just want to see more of these hides pulled out of the trash. But if I were to add the caveat. In order for this movement to truly scale, we need the consumer mindsets to shift.

Yeah.

In order to care about natural fibers again. And not think that it's evil or bad. And so the brand has such a huge role to play in that narrative.

Yeah, it does. I think your cred is your brand, by the way. I think your cred is also that you're farming and ranching. Your story is really, really important and central. But I agree with you. There's a bigger mission here than just selling purses and wallets. But it does. I think your cred and probably your cash flow depend on the brand being strong. And so I guess since I think your question is how do you divide your time and resources? That's your key. I would be very focused on making sure you have an excellent brand manager, CEO, head of sales, chief offensive officer, whatever you call it. But I would not allow your attention to move off to the mission that gives you so much passion, which is moving these hides without being absolutely sure that the mothership is being completely taken care of, because that's your cash flow. And entrepreneurs, I always call us pathological optimists. We tend to think there's no limits to what we can do. So I really appreciate that you recognize that there are limits and also recognize that you can't do too many things. Look, I chaired the national campaign to label GMOs. It was a major distraction. But the luxury of taking that time to work on a mission that is basically a generational mission comes from being sure that the mothership Like I keep calling it is taken care of. The more I'm hearing you. I would make sure that the 10 million is in the bag, no pun intended. I would really concentrate for the next year on the things you need to do to cement and lock in that growth trajectory, which includes, you know, that right hand that you can a point to take up the critical roles you play. I would become a sponsor of an environmental media association of environmental working groups, Earth dinners. I would award shows. I would make yourself the boutique. I would really, really use all your talents and wisdom and lock in the brand trajectory. Be sure the gross margins are protected. Be sure you've got a defensive business as well as a niche before allowing yourself to slip off too far. And by the way, you might even consider, you know, maybe there's a nonprofit to the Hyde thing. Maybe there's other partners for you. You know, my first $10 million, I was just nosed to the grindstone, but once I got there and I could hire good, talented people, I was freer to start focusing on the mission, which in turn came back and fed the product. Right. For the yogurt sales.

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Gary, I have a question about branding here. Because at the end of the day, I mean, as beautiful as these bags are in this category, it's all about brand, right? Like why do people buy a Kate Spade bag or a Tory Burch bag? Right. Because of the brand that they built.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I mean, this goes back to the opening conversation in our intro chat. You know, there's a changed consumer out there.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I think what Kate is onto, I think this is a fashion statement being truly green, truly clean. And let's not forget, Kate is providing a critical currency for these farms. So I think the mission here is the brand. I think it's selling hard on the big picture. The big story of what you stand for that's going to earn you your long term sustained niche.

[Guy Raz]

So I agree with you. But I'm going to take a slightly different perspective here, which is to say that these bags, especially the women's handbags, right. You need to see these bags on women in New York and Los Angeles.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah.

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Or in Paris. And so is there a world where Range revolution is sort of the all encompassing company, but you might consider changing the brand name to your name. Your last name is Havstad Cassad or something like that. You've got nice European or sort of a cool last name.

[Gary Hirschberg]

That sounds like she's got the Kate part already.

[Guy Raz]

Right? Kate. I mean, it kind of sounds like a cool name. Like it could Be from Denmark or something. I don't know, maybe play around with that idea. Because Range revolution is what you're doing. But I wonder whether it might sound too much like the cowboy hats. And in a sense, that may limit the kind of consumer that would otherwise be attracted to these designs.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Look, I actually disagree a little bit here because I think that range revolution is your brand, is your mission. The reason I slept into my chatter a few minutes ago, this Environmental Media association, this is all the environmental stars in Hollywood. Stars who lend their time and efforts to really green stuff. You should be the handbag of that thing, you know, you should be the want to handbag at the Oscars.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I think, you know, you're not just another fashion brand. You're truly fashionable, which is you're building a future for the farms and for all of us. And I would really concentrate on get on goop or whatever, but on celebrity endorsement. Michelle Pfeiffer or somebody, perhaps. And I think that will carry you onto the red carpet.

I was just thinking through, first of all, some of my favorite How I built this episodes. And Gary, yours is right up there, but as is the Kate Spade, Tory Burch, Eileen Fisher, and of course, they're all names of those founders. So I totally hear what you're saying, guy. But at the same time, I selfishly want to start this beautiful revolution, and I want people to feel that that fire that fashion can be design can be for good, and the most radical fibers are the ones we already have. And let's start thinking that way.

[Guy Raz]

I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, you can experiment with different ways of trying to bring it in front of consumers, but at the end of the day, you've got a beautifully designed line. And now the question is, how do you get it into the right hands? Right. It's a. The hardest thing about what you've done. What you're going to do is building the brand. It's turning that into a brand that people know and want to buy.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah. Maybe by the next time we talk, you'll see Gwyneth Paltrow with a regenerative leather tote on her arm.

[Guy Raz]

Maybe. Maybe. Kate, the brand is called Range Revolution. Good luck. Congrats.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Thank you both so much.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Good luck.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, Michelle Pfeiffer, who is great, but Gary, I mean, you got to get with the.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Well, it happens. Michelle is on the EWG board, and I'm a Michelle Pfeiffer.

[Guy Raz]

No one knows Michelle Pfeiffer anymore. I mean, she's Amazing. Get this in the hands of the like Addison Rae or one of these tiktokers.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah, I don't disagree. And you know, again, this is this sort of theme I think that happens is entrepreneurs with a mission, you know, the brand or the company, sometimes they forget. Right. That that's actually what enables them to get to their platform. So important that she doesn't put the cart before the horse.

[Guy Raz]

For sure. All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace can help any business owner craft a strong web presence and sell anything from products to content to time, all in one place, all on your terms. With Squarespace Blueprint, you can build a completely personalized website optimized for every device with powerful SEO tools that help you grow the way you want. Squarespace makes check seamless for your customers accepting credit cards, PayPal and Apple Pay and in eligible countries, Afterpay and Clearpay. And you can easily manage your clients and invoices from vetting leads to receiving payments in one streamlined, customizable workflow. So check out squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.combilt to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. If you've been listening to me for a while, you know that I'm really interested in health and fitness. And for the past year the single biggest game changer for me has been a biowearable. Why is it a game changer? Well, because it's helped me figure out which foods leave me energized and which ones make me foggy and sluggish and even hungry. And that matters because it turns out 88% of us have suboptimal metabolic health. That's why I'm so excited about Lingo. It's a new bio wearable from Abbott that tracks your glucose in real time and gives personal insights and science backed recommendations to eat in a way that works for you. To see how your body responds to food and learn what you can do to improve your metabolism, try Lingo. It starts at $49 for a two week plan, no prescription needed for a limited time. Save 10% off your first order by using the code HIBT@Hello Lingo.com the Lingo Glucose system is for users 18 and old or not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. For more information, please visit hello lingo.com us. You know when you're shopping for like a new car or even a new bike, which I was shopping for recently, and you want to find one with all the right features, something that fits exactly what you need? Well, that's the way it feels today, trying to find the right AI tools for your business. You want to get it right, but it's not always clear which tools are actually going to help. Grammarly is designed to fit your business's unique needs and works right away to help contribute to your overall success. Grammarly works effortlessly with the apps I already use every single day and it saves me so much time while I'm writing. With its super helpful AI prompts, Grammarly works where you work from docs to messages to emails, integrating seamlessly across 500,000 apps and websites. No cutting, no pasting, no context switching. Join 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to work faster and hit their goals while keeping their data Secure. Go to Grammarly.comenterprise to learn more Grammarly Enterprise Ready AI. Welcome back to the advice line here on How I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Gary Hirschberg. He's the co founder of the organic yogurt and dairy company Stonyfield. Gary, what do you say? Let's take another call.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Hear, hear.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. You are on with me and Gary Hershberg. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

[Jamie Poe]

My name is Jamie Poe. I'm from Santa Barbara, California. I'm the co owner and co chef of Poe & Co. Folk Foods. We make vegan dried camping meals. They're shelf stable. You just said boiling water and eat them directly from the pouch.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing. Okay, well welcome to the show, Jamie. Thank you for calling in. Okay, how did you start this? Where'd the idea come from? Are you a camp like a backpacker? A camper.

[Jamie Poe]

So that will lead to my question, but I am not a backpacker. I am just your all around adventure buddy who likes to go camping on the weekends. I have always had a Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday job.

[Guy Raz]

What's your day job, if you don't mind me asking?

[Jamie Poe]

Yeah, so my husband and I work together and we own a catering company in Santa Barbara.

[Guy Raz]

So that makes sense that you, that you started this as a sidebar. Tell me what was the impetus or idea? You've got a catering business, you're probably super busy, you're probably working probably every weekend, I imagine. But what was the idea around this camping food or the dried food?

[Jamie Poe]

So a little background. My husband and I have a lot of food experience, about over 50 years of cooking experience between the two of us. And when we decided to have kids about six years ago, we tried to figure out how two chefs could still make a living and work. And that's what started the catering business. And we've done pretty well with that over the years. And as the years have gone on and as our kids have gotten a little older, we have been thinking about what we can do to not work most weekends or at least Saturdays. We kind of actually don't even work that many Sundays right now. And we thought a lot about the fact that we have the service based business, but what can we do as a product? And it kind of led us to the fact that we both love the outdoors and that brought us to this category.

[Guy Raz]

That's awesome. Where are you selling them right now?

[Jamie Poe]

So we sell them direct to consumer. We sell them in about 25 indie places and then we're about to launch on Amazon.

[Guy Raz]

And I know you're pretty new business, just maybe a year and a half old, but have you guys managed to crack, I don't know, 25, 50 grand in sales yet?

[Jamie Poe]

We're about there. And I like to say we're much more tortoise than hare.

[Guy Raz]

Great.

[Jamie Poe]

It is very much our side hustle and it is one we want to see grow and we want to be able to, to become even more choosy about what catering events we take on and supplement it with running this business.

[Guy Raz]

Cool. Well, Gary Hershberg was the OG Tortoise to scale that into Stonyfield. What's your question for us today?

[Jamie Poe]

How do we reach our target audience who doesn't seem to know our category exists? I think what we've come to the crossroads which we're seeing is that when we developed these, we developed them for your kind of comfort camper. So, I mean, in California, car camping is huge. And what we have found is that the category itself is much more known and sought after by kind of more hardcore people. So the backpackers in particular, and you know what they want from the product, they want more protein, they want more calories. And so we're sort of at this point where, you know, when we designed these. We designed them for all these other people. But the backpackers and the ones who know about this category are the ones who have found us.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so you design these for, like, families who are driving to a campground for the night. But actually the people who want this are backpackers who are, like, going deep into the backcountry and they want something light to carry. But the problem, if I'm reading this correctly, the problem for them is there's not enough calories and protein in what you offer so far.

[Jamie Poe]

Yes. So the backpackers are the ones who have really found us. And they, you know, they're like, great new backpacking food, but it doesn't have this, this and this. And we're like, well, it's really something that we thought more of like the young families going to a campsite after school on the weekend and people who just want convenience food to have with their bottle of wine while watching the waves on the Pacific.

[Guy Raz]

Right. Gary, questions for Jamie.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I mean, you've got a number of attributes here. You really are both chefs, and so you've got a gourmet aspect. I see in your background that you've been on Michelin star restaurants, and then you've got convenience and then you've got gluten free. Right. And you've got taste. So what if you have 10 seconds with a consumer to say, this is why you should have it? What's your. What's the elevator pitch? What's your. What's the one thing you tell people?

[Jamie Poe]

You can have this food in the outdoors. You don't need to worry about a cooler or refrigeration, and it's ready in 20 minutes.

[Gary Hirschberg]

And why you versus Mountain House or.

[Guy Raz]

One of the Patagonia provisions or whatever?

[Jamie Poe]

Yeah, they're all vegan. They're designed by chefs to add boiling water too. So culinarily, they just make sense. They're delicious, they're flavorful, they're better for you, and they don't contain dried animal chunks that you're trying to rehydrate with water.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Okay.

[Guy Raz]

And I'm looking at them right now. They're about 12 bucks a pop. So that's a, you know, that's a pretty good price. That's for a full meal per person. Well, I mean, I would think that the channel would be like the Reis and the sports based, you know, the outdoor stores. Right. That people go to have you guys. I mean, is there one down in Santa Barbara or. There is camping stores. Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Poe]

So the local buyer there was actually super interested in bringing in our product, but they can't do it at a local level if it's a topical or a food. So when we first started, we applied there and we got denied. And I haven't revisited that.

[Guy Raz]

Hmm.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Could I just stand back for a second? I'm googling around while we're chatting here. And there's this report you should get called Data Intello. The global outdoor camping food market size was valued at $2.5 billion.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Last year.

[Guy Raz]

That's big.

[Gary Hirschberg]

It's going to be 4.8 billion by 2032. Growing at a compounded growth rate of 7.5%. So congratulations, number one, you're in a growth category. But here, catch this sentence. One of the most significant opportunities lies in the development of new and innovative food products that cater to the evolving preferences of consumers. There's a growing demand for camping foods that align with these dietary preferences. Manufacturers can capitalize on this term by introducing new product lines that cater to vegan, gluten free, et cetera. So some of this depends on how you're talking about yourself. You're not just your average. Add water, you're gourmet, you're delicious. And when we were opening up this call guy, we were going back over some early Stonyfield successes. And I'll tell you, it all came down to getting consumers to pull in. You know, REI or your camping stores will carry you. If consumers come in saying, hey, do you have that P.O. and company stuff? So I'm Googling again. You've got Santa Barbara County Hikers Club, 3310 members right there. Can you do an event for them? Can you make a give some donations to help them raise money? Or can you do a contest, maybe go out camping with you guys for a night? I mean, people think automatically, like, how do I get into retail? But remember that in retail, there's consumers who are getting their information, you know, in lots of places. And how can you go directly to them? I would work hard on that succinct pitch, that one sentence, you know, sort of like, tired of compromising with extra chewy campaign meals or I loved your dried animal. You know, that's a good one. You know, why not eat gourmet in the outdoors?

[Guy Raz]

I'm sort of, Gary, I'm looking at these flavored black garlic ramen and coconut chickpea stew. You know, one of the things that you asked Jamie was, should we lean into the people driving the Subarus and going, you know, for day hikes or the hardcore campers I think there's a value in at least trying one skew that's a hardcore protein brand. Like, each packet has 10 grams of protein. And you know, where you really lean into the idea of, like, this is not only delicious, but it's going to really give you sustenance.

[Jamie Poe]

Okay.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I do think I'm on your site. I think testimonials would be a really important thing to have there. Again, this is going back to who your consumer is or even testimonials about you. And that's the other thing I want to say. On a recent episode, Guy was interviewing my friend Jim Cook, you know, Sam Adams. And Jim was really emphasizing the personal stories. And, you know, he used his story. Your story is your unique asset. And I think you've got a really unique story. And the idea that, man, I mean, isn't it kind of cool these two gourmet chefs, you know, who like to camp, have now made this product, I mean, that says so much. So I'd try to maybe invite a food writer to come camp with you, get your story out there a little bit. A lot of entrepreneurs are shy about that, but you've got a hell of a good one and really a compelling reason to try the product.

[Guy Raz]

I think, Gary, you know, it's always a trade off. How much do you put on the label and how much do you leave off? You know, is there value? Do you think there'd be value in these guys putting just a line there? This is like made by Michelin trained chefs or something like that at the top.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yes. Even better would be if I see you worked for Danny Meyer, maybe my old friend Danny, Maybe a quote from Danny. I mean, maybe Tom Colicchio, maybe a peer chef out there with a quote that sort of implies. Says it all right there. You know, a must have for every meal. But I will say less about the package and more about the website because this is. You're not really as much of a retail play as you are a direct right to consumer. And so I think having your site dimensionalized with, like I say, chefs talking, hikers talking, active people talking. And again, I think, gosh, you know, for me, the thought that there's a lot of commodity products out there, but you're not a commodity. You're chefs who want to have something great for yourself. Well, that's what I want to have.

[Jamie Poe]

I like that.

[Guy Raz]

Agreed. The brand is called PO & Co. Folk Foods. Jamie, good luck. Thanks so much for calling in.

[Jamie Poe]

Thank you, Guy. Thank you, Gary.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah, good luck.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you. I mean, $4 billion. Who would have thought in camping food.

[Gary Hirschberg]

That's right. And again, that means there's a lot of commodity. There's a lot of stuff out there. There's always room for something better. I also think, by the way, a lot of times these retailers who say they can't carry it, they might allow you to do a demo or something, you know, an enterprising manager, give a little trial outside, you know, out in the parking lot. Just see if it creates a little excitement for them and interest you.

[Guy Raz]

Just don't take no for an answer.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Right. If you don't ask, you don't get is my favorite line.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I built this. I love a great deal as much as the next Guy, but I'm not going to crawl through a bed of hot coals just to save a few bucks. It has to be easy. So when Mint Mobile said it was easy to get wireless for $15 a month with the purchase of a three month plan, I called them on it. But it turns out it really is that easy to get wireless for 15 bucks a month. In fact, the longest part of the process was the time I spent on hold waiting to break up with my old provider. To get started, go to mintmobile.combilt there you'll see that right now all three month plans are only $15 a month, including the unlimited plan. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. To get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.combilt that's mintmobile.combilt cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.combilt $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 a month new customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40gb on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. C. Mint Mobile for details as a B2B marketer, you know how noisy the ad space can be. If your message isn't targeted to the right audience, it just disappears into the noise. With LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach the professionals who are more likely to find your ad relevant. LinkedIn's targeting capabilities allow you to filter by job title, industry, company and more and reach your customers in a respectful environment. You'll have direct access to and build relationships with decision makers. On a platform with a billion members, 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level executives, you'll be able to drive results results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B in the technology space, LinkedIn generated two to five times higher return on ad spend than other social media platforms. And 79% of B2B content marketers said LinkedIn produces the best results for paid media. And we know this because we hear this from the founders who are on this show every single week. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com BuiltThis to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com BuiltThis. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be. To be. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking calls with Gary Hirschberg. So, Gary, why don't we bring in our next caller?

[Gary Hirschberg]

Let's go.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Gary Hershberg. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Diana Dar]

Okay. Hi, Guy and Gary. My name is Diana Dar. I'm the CEO and founder of Colt Crackers, an organic seeded cracker company. We bake and manufacture in our commercial kitchen in Berkeley, California, and we ship and sell to about 500 retailers across the country and on our website.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. First of all, just full disclosure, I live in the Bay Area, so I know them, I've tried them, I bought them. But describe what they are. They're crackers. But what makes them different?

[Diana Dar]

So they're made with six seeds. Sunflower, sesame, chia hemp, pumpkin and flax. So they are naturally gluten free, vegan, organic.

[Guy Raz]

Got it.

[Diana Dar]

One flavor is made with cornmeal and corn flour and the second flavor is made with cassava flour, which is a root vegetable, sustainably grown.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. So one is totally grain free with a cassava.

[Diana Dar]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

And tell me how you launched this. Were you in food before?

[Diana Dar]

So I had gone to culinary school and I had baked and I couldn't support myself working in restaurants, so I got into E commerce and marketing. And when I was in my 50s, I was let go from my job and a mom at my daughter's school suggested we should make these seeded crackers. And I was excited to start a new business which combined the baking background and my marketing background.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Diana Dar]

And then a shout out to Berkeley. I think it's the perfect place to start a food business. They really embrace me. Here I was at the farmers market and I'm in a lot of local stores and people are just really supportive of local makers and good food. And along the way, I bought out my business partner. And now seven years in, the business is humming along and growing.

[Guy Raz]

And give us a sense of what. I mean, have you guys cracked a million dollars in sales yet? I mean, that's a big pun intended milestone.

[Diana Dar]

We will at the end of this year.

[Guy Raz]

Congrats. Okay. And tell us what question you have for us today.

[Diana Dar]

So my question is, every hire I have made along the way has been so I can focus on the next next thing to grow the business.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Diana Dar]

And I now have a strong but lean team of four people. And they bake and package and manage the store accounts. And because my team is so small, I end up doing everything else. So it's sales, which I love. Hr, not so much. Social media, purchasing, and on and on. And my question is, how do I hire someone who has those skills to take on many of those day to day things so I can focus on that next thing?

[Guy Raz]

All right, lots to unpack there. Gary Hershberg, let's bring you in. I'm sure you've got some questions for Diana before we tackle her question.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I do. Diana, nice to meet you. And I look forward to trying your crackers. I guess the question is, what are those things that you want to be freed up to do? Is it sales or where will you focus?

[Diana Dar]

So it's sales and it's also recipe development. So creating a third cracker flavor. I need time to work on it.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah. And is your impediment scale and profitability, you don't have enough cash or is it more that you haven't been able to find the right person?

[Diana Dar]

It's not knowing what that role is. Cash is not an issue. Scalability is not an issue. I could double the business with a few more production workers. It's really taking those day to day things that were not on my to do list yesterday that have to be taken care of. The website goes down and I need to fix it. Something breaks in the kitchen, I'm the one that has to do it. And I don't know if it's A group of consultants that I take on. Or it's one person who can do some hr, some operations, some facility managing. I don't know how to find that sort of octopus.

[Gary Hirschberg]

But you are comfortable that you have enough cash to pay a market salary for that role?

[Diana Dar]

Yes.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Okay, great. Because I actually have lived your experience, Diana. All kinds of administrative things that not only did I not like, I just wasn't good at them. Right, right. And after four tries, I finally found the right person, and I would call her my partner today. In other words, she became that important to me and ended up being with me for almost 30 years. But it took a lot of trial and error, and I actually called it a controller. But it turned out she was really a coo, a Chief Operating Officer, which, of course, would have been too fancy a title for the early going. Diana, by your own admission, you don't yet know exactly what it is that you're looking for. It's okay to be open about that. You need some definitions around it. You know, I think HR and administration, something along those lines. You're looking for somebody who's decent with accounting, who's decent with numbers, who's probably more precise and therefore legalistic and therefore okay with contracts and. And negotiations and things like that. And so one thing I really recommend here is networking the daylights out of. I mean, think of your marketing your positions like you're thinking about marketing your product.

[Diana Dar]

Right.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I think it's okay to be out there talking to people, talking to your bank, or talking to your accountants. There's lots of folks who I call corporate refugees looking to get into something like this. The other good place to look is often community colleges. I find there's often a lot of diamonds in the rough.

[Guy Raz]

You're talking about professors, people who are adjuncts there or teaching.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah, I'm talking about that. But I'm also saying, you know, do you have. Listing yourself in there, all the students there are looking for positions.

[Diana Dar]

Right.

[Gary Hirschberg]

And define, you know, a little bit about who you are and what you're looking for. But again, it's less about skill set and more about the kind of person.

[Diana Dar]

Good thoughts.

[Gary Hirschberg]

The best people I found. And again, this goes back to the Stonyfield story. We've always been very mission driven our whole thing. And you have a mission, too. Don't underestimate the power of that mission to attract the right person.

[Diana Dar]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

I totally agree with that. The idea that you're looking for a Swiss army knife and somebody who's passionate about the product. Whenever we look for People to work on the show. We want people who love what we do. It's critical. Not necessarily the best producer, editor, you know, we can make them that, but somebody who's really passionate about what we do. We want them to believe in our mission.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I have one last source for you that's going to seem like totally crazy but you mentioned you're selling at Erewhon and Berkeley bowl and local grocers talk it up there. You may find people there who are looking to make a change or who talk to their own customers and they may become advocates for you. They may say, hey, there's this awesome lady with this really cool cracker company. It's got real legs and people in retail know a lot of people and have a lot of surface area.

[Guy Raz]

Gary, let me ask you this question. When looking for somebody like that, does Diana have to give that person some skin in the game in order to ensure that that person is going to really supercharge her business? In other words, not just a salaried employee but somebody who has some equity?

[Gary Hirschberg]

I wouldn't give away too much at the outset. I really believe in dating before you get hitched and so much of it is chemistry. But I would say if you to answer you guy, when you do find that right person and you want to keep them, that's where the, what I call the three legged stool comes in. You need to have obviously a market based salary so they're not going to be looking for elsewhere for a better pay. They should have some kind of equity incentives or options if possible. And I also think profit sharing some kind of annual incentives, frankly that's better shared with the whole team is also important. I call that the three legged stool.

[Diana Dar]

Great. Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Diana Dar. The brand is called Cult Crackers. Good luck. Congrats.

[Gary Hirschberg]

I'm going online to order some right now.

[Diana Dar]

Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Get some cheese. We have a party.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Well, you know, crackers, crackers are so competitive, so good on, good on her that she sort of fits into the earlier discussion that you know, she wants to really build word of mouth, build passion from the consumer.

[Guy Raz]

Gary, before we let you go, what when you look back on your time starting at Stonyfield, you know, in your 20s, is there something you wish you would have known that would have made it a little bit easier or I don't know, that would just smoothed away a little bit more for you that you kind of wish you knew?

[Gary Hirschberg]

Yeah, I wish I understood that being an entrepreneur is really being a pathological optimist and, and the most dangerous word in my vocabulary was, yes, doing fewer things better. You know, I can point to the marketplace. That was a challenge. I can point to lots of external factors. But I have to hold up the mirror too, and tell you that a big part of our curve to getting on our own feet was our own excessive imagination and optimism, taking on too many things. I can't do it all. Which one should I do? I think that again, gets back to that Churchill quote about the wisdom when you need it after you needed it.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Gary Hershberg, thanks so much guy.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Always a pleasure. Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

It's Gary Hershberg, co founder and former CEO of Stonyfield. And by the way, if you haven't heard Gary's original How I Built this Episode, you have got to go back and listen to it. It is so good. We will put a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Gary Hirschberg]

On many occasions I would tiptoe over to the office to call my mother in law to have a chat to see if I could borrow another 3,500 or 2,500 to make ends meet. And one night I heard the click click of call waiting on my mother in law's phone and Meg was calling from the house to say, mom, don't do this.

[Guy Raz]

Wait, your wife was telling her mom not to lay you money for the business, right? Because it sounds like maybe she didn't believe in it.

[Gary Hirschberg]

Well, she had no reason to believe in it. It was insane.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And and if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was Sena Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coates J.C. howard, Catherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

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