Advice Line with Jack Conte of Patreon

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz – Episode Summary: Advice Line with Jack Conte of Patreon

Release Date: January 16, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz welcomes back Jack Conte, the co-founder and CEO of Patreon, to the Advice Line segment. Jack shares his extensive experience in building Patreon, offers invaluable advice to budding entrepreneurs, and provides tailored guidance to callers facing unique business challenges. This episode delves deep into community building, navigating saturated markets, and achieving product-market fit, all through the lens of one of the most influential platforms supporting creators today.

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Building and Cultivating Community

The Essence of Community Building

At the heart of Jack Conte's success with Patreon lies the mastery of community building. When questioned about fostering community and generating buzz around a product, Jack emphasizes that "community does not happen for free." Instead, it requires work, effort, and intentionality (05:06).

Key Insights:

• Authenticity is Crucial: Jack advises founders to lean into who they are and fearlessly be themselves. Authenticity attracts a loyal and passionate following, as averting to appeal to everyone often results in resonating with none.

  Jack Conte (05:34): "Really leaning into who you are as a person and fearlessly being that person... If you're almost entirely unfiltered, you're likely to build an incredibly rabid, loyal following."

• Learn from Others: Observing and learning from other creators who excel in community building can provide valuable lessons and strategies.

Transitioning from Follower to Interest-Based Models

Addressing the challenge of breaking through in an oversaturated digital landscape, Jack posits that "the Internet has shifted away from the follower model into an interest-based model that's hyper-focused on discovery." This evolution makes it easier to break through but harder to maintain momentum.

Key Insights:

• Speed of Iteration: Jack underscores that finding product-market fit is about speed of iteration rather than rigid strategies. It's essential to test ideas quickly to determine what resonates with the audience.

  Jack Conte (17:00): "Product market fit is actually no strategy at all. It's speed of iteration."

• Building a Core Group: Once initial attention is garnered, the focus should shift to converting that visibility into a core group of super fans who are authentically connected to the brand.

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Advice to Callers

Caller 1: Zach Parsons – Honeymoon Coffee Company

Background: Zach Parsons, calling from Evansville, Indiana, speaks about his multi-faceted business, Honeymoon Coffee Company, which includes four retail coffee shops, an Airbnb, a coffee roasting division, and a podcast.

Challenge: Zach seeks advice on expanding nationally by launching a coffee subscription service tailored for couples embarking on their marriage journey, blending coffee experiences with relationship rituals.

Advice Provided:

• Find Product-Market Fit Quickly: Jack emphasizes the importance of testing the product with real customers to swiftly identify what works and what doesn't.

  Jack Conte (17:52): "Find product market fit and the right strategy."

• Differentiation Through Storytelling: Both Jack and Guy highlight the necessity of a unique narrative that sets the product apart in a crowded market. Zach is encouraged to capitalize on the unique angle of supporting couples through their marriage with a coffee subscription.

  Guy Raz (20:21): "Find a way to tap into the wedding gift world... It might be worth exploring partnerships with bridal magazines and wedding websites."

• Segmentation and Targeted Marketing: Creating specific landing pages for different demographics can help in catering to varied audiences without diluting the brand.

  Jack Conte (39:25): "Put up landing pages for different demographics and markets."

Caller 2: Rowena Shara – Eat to Explore

Background: Rowena Shara from New York City introduces her business, Eat to Explore, an experiential cooking kit that inspires families to explore global cultures through food.

Challenge: Rowena faces the dilemma of adapting her product for all ages without confusing her existing customer base and seeks strategies to cultivate and grow her community.

Advice Provided:

• Enhancing Community Engagement: Jack recommends leveraging community-driven content and activities to transform fans into super fans.

  Jack Conte (31:50): "Pilgrimages, content creation, and creating collections of work are ways to cultivate a sense of belonging and identity among super fans."

• Product Diversification: Guy proposes an adult-oriented addition to the existing cooking kits, such as a cocktail mix card for each country, ensuring that the core brand remains intact while appealing to a broader audience.

  Guy Raz (35:05): "Offer an adult kit based around cocktails from around the world... every great, original idea is so original."

• Brand Segmentation: Jack suggests creating separate landing pages or even distinct brands for different demographics to prevent brand dilution and cater effectively to each segment.

  Jack Conte (40:01): "Put up landing pages for different demographics and markets."

Caller 3: Melissa Spitz – Adventures in Handwriting

Background: Melissa Spitz from Boca Raton, Florida, is the CEO and founder of Adventures in Handwriting, an interactive online handwriting program for children aged three and a half to six.

Challenge: Melissa aims to maximize marketing impact to grow awareness and credibility, especially as her program gains traction in schools, despite having limited resources.

Advice Provided:

• Direct-to-Consumer to Enterprise Transition: Jack advises understanding the distinct strategies required when shifting from selling directly to consumers (parents) to selling to organizations (schools).

  Jack Conte (50:25): "Selling to an enterprise is a different type of business with a different sales technique and customer base."

• Pilgrimage and Community Building: Emphasizing on pilgrimages and user-generated content can help in establishing deeper connections and increasing product adoption within schools.

• Brand Building: Investing in a strong brand narrative can naturally drive interest and credibility, making it easier to approach schools.

  Jack Conte (53:07): "Building a brand is crucial for creating impact and fostering awareness."

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Concluding Insights

Towards the end of the episode, Jack Conte reflects on the perpetual challenges of marketing and brand visibility. He highlights that marketing is an ever-evolving challenge that requires continuous adaptation to new platforms and changing consumer behaviors.

Key Takeaway:

• Adaptability is Key: Whether it's shifting from long-form to short-form content or pivoting marketing strategies to align with current trends, maintaining flexibility is essential for sustained success.

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Final Thoughts

Jack Conte imparts a poignant piece of advice reflecting on his journey with Patreon. He emphasizes the importance of having a clear vision and internal conviction over seeking consensus from disparate opinions, a lesson he wishes he had learned earlier in his entrepreneurial journey.

Jack Conte (56:57): "Figure out what you want to do, what kind of company you want to build... Use your own internal conviction as a North Star for your decision."

Guy Raz wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to explore Jack's original How I Built This episode for a comprehensive understanding of Patreon’s genesis and growth.

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Notable Quotes

• Jack Conte on Authenticity in Community Building:

  "Really leaning into who you are as a person and fearlessly being that person... If you're almost entirely unfiltered, you're likely to build an incredibly rabid, loyal following." (05:34)

• Jack Conte on Product-Market Fit:

  "Product market fit is actually no strategy at all. It's speed of iteration." (17:00)

• Guy Raz on Differentiation Through Storytelling:

  "Find a way to tap into the wedding gift world... It might be worth exploring partnerships with bridal magazines and wedding websites." (20:21)

• Jack Conte on Brand Building:

  "Building a brand is crucial for creating impact and fostering awareness." (53:07)

• Jack Conte on Entrepreneurial Vision:

  "Figure out what you want to do, what kind of company you want to build... Use your own internal conviction as a North Star for your decision." (56:57)

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a masterclass in community building, navigating saturated markets, and achieving product-market fit, all shared through Jack Conte’s wealth of experience with Patreon. Entrepreneurs and listeners gain actionable insights into fostering genuine connections, differentiating their brands, and adapting to an ever-changing digital landscape. Whether you're a seasoned founder or just starting your entrepreneurial journey, the advice dispensed in this episode is invaluable for driving success and sustaining growth.

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For more insights and episodes, listen to How I Built This on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

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[Jack Conte]

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[Jack Conte]

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[Guy Raz]

Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I built this Lab.

I'm Guy Raz.

This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like. Help with you can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to.

[Jack Conte]

Tell us how to reach you.

[Guy Raz]

And also, don't forget to sign up for my newslet full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it.

Joining me this week is Jack Conte, co founder and CEO of the content creator platform Patreon. Jack, it's great to have you back on the show.

[Jack Conte]

Thanks for having me. I'm psyched to be here.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. You were first on the show in 2021 on how I built this and you told, of course, told the story about building Patreon. You were a music, had a band, poplamous for anyone who remembers still going, still going. And you realized that there was no easy way for your fans to support you financially, especially once people stop paying for songs on itunes. So you basically solved your own problem. You built a platform where fans could pay creators directly. Fast forward. Today you've got over a quarter of a million creators on the platform. I think you've generated billions of dollars in revenue for these creators. Congratulations.

[Jack Conte]

Thanks.

We're having fun and working hard. Yeah, it's been a wild 11 years that I never in my entire life could have expected.

[Guy Raz]

It's an amazing story and if you haven't heard it, we're going to put a link in the episode description, so check it out. Anyway, before we bring on our entrepreneurs today, I just want to ask you a question about community, because a lot of people, you know, they'll sort of ask us, how do we build community? How do we build buzz around this thing that we're doing? And you know, that is the core, the foundation of what Patreon is about. It's about community and then the community supporting what you do. What are some ways you think founders, you know, particularly founders who have a product right, can think about building community?

[Jack Conte]

Great question.

It does not happen for free. Community is work and effort and intentionality.

Building a community as a founder is different than building a community as a creator.

There are similarities, but I think it would be a mistake to assume it's one for one.

And so there have been things that.

Have definitely I've learned along the way in terms of building a community around my art and music as poplmoose, and then building a community around a product and a platform for creators. Maybe some things I learned early on, like, gosh, it's so trite sounding, but.

Really leaning into who you are as.

A person and fearlessly being that person.

Even if it turns a lot of.

People off along the way, like that's it kind of has to start there. I feel like if you're kind of averaging yourself off to appeal to as many people as possible, you kind of appeal to nobody. And what we see with creators on Patreon is the ones who are just almost like entirely unfiltered, who just empty their minds into a microphone, are the ones who build these incredibly rabid, loyal followings. Because, you know, if you think about.

The viewer's experience on the other side.

Of that, you end up hearing somebody.

Who sounds more like a person and maybe sounds a bit more like me.

As a listener, but like, the more you're able to just really be yourself and, and then following other creators who.

Are doing a good job of that.

I think you can learn a lot by just watching other people build communities online for sure.

[Guy Raz]

Obviously you guys have, I think now more than 8 million patrons who pay for, who support their creators on Patreon. But it's getting harder and harder to break through on digital platforms just because there's so much more. I mean, even in podcasting, there's just so many more shows out there, so much more content out there. How do you think about getting attention and reaching new audiences when it kind of feels like we're in this oversaturated digital landscape?

[Jack Conte]

You know what's interesting, guys? I actually think it's easier to break through now. I think it's harder to stick, but I think it's easier to break. And what I've seen is, you know.

The Internet has really shifted away from.

The follower model and it's shifted into an interest based model that's hyper focused on discovery.

And the net impact of that is.

People who don't have a million followers can upload a TikTok video and get 10 million views.

And that is more available and accessible now to anyone with an Internet connection.

And a phone than it has been ever in the history of creativity. Now it's harder for that person who then gets 10 million views to get.

Their next 10 million views.

That's a lot harder than it's been. And that's where like good community building and brand building comes into play. Okay, now that I got those 10 million views, what is my next video? What is my plan to sort of get people from that TikTok video to my website or to my YouTube channel or to my podcast and so we see a lot of people, like building strategies and thinking about the sort of.

Overall funnel on the web from kind of top of funnel awareness building and.

Views and attention and that fan journey down funnel to, okay, what do people find after my TikTok video. And so this idea that you need to just now use that sort of top of funnel traffic to find your core group.

And then once you have that core.

Group of super fans who are really excited about you and really feel very authentically connected to you, that's kind of all you need. And what we see on Patreon is.

About two thirds of our payments volume.

Is not going to the like, you know, super top of market creators, like the super rich and famous creators. It's going to what we call. I don't like the term, but like some people call it like the creative middle class. It's like the people who are making, you know, 100 or $200,000 a year with their podcast and their show, and.

They have an editor and they're hiring.

A small team and they're like building that out. Like, that's who Patreon is kind of.

Working with right now. And so that is a more viable.

More real path than it has ever.

Been in the history of creativity.

I wish more people knew that that was actually happening right now.

[Guy Raz]

I think that's so great. I want to see more of that and I hope that's where the creator economy moves towards. It's really awesome what you guys built and how you started this whole movement. So congrats again.

[Jack Conte]

Thanks.

Thanks, guy. I appreciate that.

[Guy Raz]

All right, Jack, let's bring on some callers because we've got people who are waiting online to ask for advice and hopefully we can be helpful. Let's bring in our first caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Jack Conte from Patreon. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Zach Parsons]

Hey, guy. Hey, Jack. My name is Zach Parsons and I am calling to you from Evansville, Indiana, where in 2016, my now wife and I started the Honeymoon Coffee Company. And in the last, I guess, eight years or so, we've expanded that to four retail coffee shop locations. We added an Airbnb above one of those locations. We acquired one of our vendors and now we're doing coffee roasting as well as starting a podcast last year.

[Guy Raz]

Wow, amazing. Okay, well, welcome to the show. Zach, you seem familiar. Do you follow me on social media platforms? I know I've seen your name somewhere.

[Zach Parsons]

Yes, yes, we have interacted on Twitter.

[Guy Raz]

Yes, yes.

[Zach Parsons]

And then we actually met together in San Francisco at TED Women in 2016. Wow.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing.

[Zach Parsons]

So first time caller, long time listener, follower.

[Guy Raz]

Well, okay. Congrats on the business. Thanks for calling in. So, okay, Honeymoon Coffee Company. First, tell us. I want to know a little bit more about it before we get to your question. So you're in Evansville, Indiana. You've got brick and mortar stores, right?

[Zach Parsons]

Yes. All in the Evansville area. So we are very much a local coffee shop.

[Guy Raz]

It's great that you've got four locations, because now you got an economy of scale. Tell me a little bit about how the business is doing. I'm assuming virtually all your business comes from those. Those locations of stores.

[Zach Parsons]

Yes, yes. So the four revenue streams of the coffee shops, we also do make some revenue from that Airbnb, and then we're able to kind of offer a competitive rate of wholesale coffee beans to ourselves with the roasting company that we also acquired, which is named the Evansville Coffee Company.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. So you gotta get your own roastery. You do Airbnbs in the same building as the. Where the coffee shops are located?

[Zach Parsons]

Yeah, yeah. We've got a location that is right on the Ohio river, and it's this sort of very romantic. You know, Airbnb's trying to provide unique experiences. Would you like to stay in a romantic location above a coffee shop that's called Honeymoon? We've had a lot of folks spend their wedding night there or try and rekindle that sort of honeymoon spirit by staying at the Airbnb.

[Guy Raz]

That's awesome. And what is the ambition here? Actually, I guess I should ask you what is the question you brought for us? Cause I'm imagining you've got a challenge that you're trying to deal with.

[Zach Parsons]

Yeah, yeah. Well, as we've sort of realized, what makes us maybe different or unique in our community is part of it is just being local. If we were to branch out into a different community, we would no longer be the local coffee shop or a local coffee shop. And so our growth ambitions and some things we've learned from acquiring the Roastery are that people buy coffee beans all over the country. So we now have this sort of new capacity to be able to ship beans to folks. And could we sort of blend what Evansville Coffee Company does in shipping beans all over the country with the Honeymoon spirit and create a product that supports people as they get married and begin their marriage journey together over coffee?

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's break it. Let's Sort of break this down a bit. You're trying to launch a coffee subscription thing nationally, but that's connected to the idea of couples getting together.

[Zach Parsons]

Yes. Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Okay.

[Zach Parsons]

So it could be maybe two different products. One could be a gift, a wedding gift, say, hey, you're getting together and we want to give you a coffee related gift. But we also really are passionate about this idea of a one year program that kind of spans that honeymoon period, which creates both different coffees to taste every month, as well as a relationship ritual experience that they would collect together in a passport over that year.

[Guy Raz]

Interesting. I mean, Jack, this is like a Patreon, but, like, right out of the Internet, he's got all these things going.

[Jack Conte]

It's amazing. I had a few more questions for you, Zach. Can you tell us a little bit about the podcast that feels like it's a totally separate thing? How did the podcast come about?

[Zach Parsons]

I think the podcast was my wife's way of sort of throwing me a little bit of a bone. I mean, truly, she is the spirit behind this coffee. This was her dream. And I'd always kind of been in this more community involvement. And when Covid hit, I actually worked with our local NPR affiliate to do a Covid related podcast to just kind of document how our community was going through that. And a local friend recommended that maybe we document some of our trials and tribulations with being married to each other and running and expanding and growing business. And it's been about two seasons.

[Guy Raz]

And that's what you guys talk about on the podcast?

[Zach Parsons]

Yeah, yeah. We talk about our relationship, how we balance the different needs of our personal lives. We have three kids, each from different marriages. Almost a perfect Brady Bunch with the three boys.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Zach Parsons]

Yeah. Two girls and a boy on my side, as well as the challenges and potential things that we could tackle as a business together.

[Jack Conte]

That's really cool. And so the idea is sell a coffee subscription that lasts a year. That is sort of the honeymoon period. That's where the year comes from. And then what else comes with that? I'm not sure I quite understand the product. So I get that there's the coffee, but what else do you get? Some kind of book or something where you write down your experiences in your first year. What is the rest of the product?

[Zach Parsons]

So it's a little bit of a mix between a passport and one of those, like, panini sticker books. Like, do you guys remember those from when you were kids where you get a book and fill them with stickers? So it's kind of like that to where they would get a book at the beginning of this experience. And it would give them the coffee tasting wheel to encourage how to taste and name the notes of the coffees they're experiencing. And then every month they would receive a new coffee and a ritual that would be designed to deepen their relationship and have a conversation and an experience around a different theme. And the instructions for that would be a sticker. And then those stickers would be put in the book. So at the end of the year, they would have an entire book filled with their reflections on the coffee that they had tasted over the year, as well as the conversations and activities they had in the relationship ritual as well.

[Jack Conte]

Okay, awesome. So a couple thoughts right off the bat. First, I just want to acknowledge, like, when I was starting Patreon, the number of people who told me, that's a bad idea, it's not going to work, was like, everyone. I don't think a single person said, that's a good idea, you should go do that. So I have a soft spot for.

Pursuing things that sound out of left.

Field, because I did that. And honestly, I spent my life doing that.

I've done that a thousand times. Most of them haven't worked.

But occasionally something does work, and if it's out of left field, you know, you're the only person doing it. So there's not a lot of competition. So. So maybe first, first thing I would, I would just offer is like the most important part, I think, to just remember, like, what you're talking about is finding product market fit and the right strategy.

I found the right strategy for finding.

Product market fit is actually no strategy at all. It's speed of iteration. Like, your intuition is actually going to.

Be right in some areas and wrong in some areas. And what matters most is getting through.

The mistakes so that you iterate your way to product market fit as quickly as possible. So my main piece of advice is not about the product or the experience or anything like that. It's about testing this idea with people.

Who would buy it.

Get to that point as quickly as possible so that you understand how many people are there out there who want this product. And the faster you get to your first sale, the faster you're going to.

Learn where your intuition is right and.

Where your intuition is wrong. And so that's very different. Like, finding product market fit is very different than like being in a scaling phase, which is where you are with the rest of your retail shops. Right. Goals for a scaling phase is more around operations and rigor and Making sure the staff is managed well and like making sure you're financially managing the business as well. That's like a whole different set of activities and strategies than finding product market fit, which is mostly just about speed of iteration and getting on the other side of the mistakes as quickly as you can.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm going to sort of double down on what Jack's saying, but from a slightly different angle, which is because I think your question, you're trying to figure out how do you do this, how do you launch this? And look, the reality is, and you know this, Zach, there's a mass, there's a proliferation of coffee brands all over the US Small and large. Right. And we've had a lot of coffee brands on the advice line. And it's hard, it's hard to sort of stand out. You know, there are brands out there, coffee brands from places as small as Evansville or, you know, roughly the same size, like Fayetteville, Arkansas. You know, Onyx Coffee is, you know, for people who know coffee, major brands, gold standard. Gold standard in part because I think they've won a bunch of barista competitions and then they opened up a training center. But I don't think too many coffee brands are trying to focus on couples and weddings. And so there really is an opportunity here to tap into the wedding gift world. Like. Right. So one way to go about it is to really find, you know, coverage from bridal magazines and bridal websites. But I also think of like Zola and some of these other wedding sites that are really focused on getting people, getting it all together and seeing if there's a world where you could maybe partner with some of these places. Because it's not that you're selling coffee, it's that you're getting into the bridal business, which is a massive multi billion dollar industry. And so it might be worth exploring some of the players in that big and small, in that world who might want to partner with you.

[Zach Parsons]

Well, I think you've walked through a similar sort of thought process that we went through. Like if we think about trying to compete with Onyx, that's pretty daunting. Or Blue Bottle or Starbucks, name the coffee brand. But if we try and stand out within a different industry, but still try and demonstrate excellence within coffee, that's where we're hoping to kind of stand out.

[Jack Conte]

That makes a ton of sense, Zach.

I think I really like what Guy said. Generally in commoditized markets where the product is relatively undifferentiated, Steel or corn or, you know, those sorts of, like, commodities. The biggest factor is brand. And nowadays what that means is story. Why should people buy your coffee? It sounds like it's coming back to this, like, you know, relationship with your.

Wife and this podcast that you have.

About your relationship helping other couples. Like, there's something in that narrative there that I think could be like the hook and make this coffee feel different.

Really nailing that story and starting with that why and getting it to feel.

Differentiated, I think is a really important part of why people would buy this coffee as opposed to some other coffee.

[Guy Raz]

100% agree. 100% agree.

[Zach Parsons]

I really appreciate that feedback and that's very encouraging.

[Guy Raz]

Zach Parsons, Honeymoon Coffee Company. Good luck, man. Thank you so much for calling. Thank you for being a fan for all these years.

[Zach Parsons]

Thank you both for what you do. I really appreciate it.

[Jack Conte]

Thanks, Zach.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much, Zach. I just kept thinking, just like in my head, I was like, what if the bride is like a tea drinker and they're like, oh, somebody sent us this couple's coffee kit. He drinks coffee.

[Jack Conte]

Then it's the start of the. Unfortunately, not the honeymoon. Maybe the end of the honeymoon. It's a cool idea. I mean, honestly, I love those left field things. Like, I would never think to pair, like, a relationship honeymoon sticker booklet with the coffee thing.

And who knows if that specific idea.

Is gonna work or not. But what I liked about it is it's not just like, I got a bag of coffee and I wanna sell it.

There's an angle to it.

And like, that precise angle might be wrong, but that there is an angle is what's important for something like coffee.

[Guy Raz]

This approach might not be the one that works, but it. But it could be the one that the thing that really catalyzes what does work.

Yeah. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

[Jack Conte]

While you're away, your home could be an Airbnb, just like the incredible home I stayed in in Mexico City just a couple weeks ago. It was absolutely beautiful and the perfect base for exploring the city. Maybe you're planning a trip for a long holiday weekend, and while you're away, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra income toward the trip. Maybe you want to go somewhere warm over the winter. While you're away, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra money to spend on souvenirs. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host this episode is brought to you by American Express. We speak with a lot of business owners like you about pursuing their passions and about how it's important to have the right tools to do that. Tools like the American Express Business Platinum Card, the card that works just as hard as you do. With its world class business and travel benefits, you can get more for your business wherever it takes you. The Amex Business Platinum Card offers a flexible spending limit that adapts with your business. Plus you'll have complimentary access to more than 1,400 airport lounges worldwide, including the Centurion Lounge. And with the ability to earn 5 times Membership Rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked on amextravel.com pursuing your passions is even more rewarding. See how the Amex Business Platinum Card gives business owners like you the tools and rewards to do more of what you love. Not all purchases will be approved. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] AmExBusiness you know, every year.

[Guy Raz]

I think to myself about the new goals I'm going to set for myself. But did you know that only 8% of us will stick with the resolutions we make? Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a simple tool that makes it easy to lock in years and years of healthy money habits in just five minutes. Head to acorns.combilt or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future. Today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 5 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail].

Welcome back to the Advice line on How I built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Jack Conti. He's the co founder of the content creator platform Patreon. What do you say Jack? Should we take another call?

[Jack Conte]

Let's do it.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Jack Conte from Patreon. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

[Rowena Shara]

Hi Guy. Hi Jack. My name is Rowena Shara. I'm calling from New York City. I am the founder and CEO of Eat to explore. We are a food and cultural experiential cooking kit. I'm trying to inspire families to explore the world through food and learn about the geography, history, music, language, and art of each country.

[Guy Raz]

Cool. Well, welcome to the show, and thank you for calling. So, just to clarify, these are, like, kits. Like, you'd get a subscription box every month, and it's based around a country.

[Rowena Shara]

It's a cooking kit around each country, and you make three local favorite recipes. I curate all the spices and condiments from each country, and then we put them into this beautiful box. You can either buy a single country or you can get a subscription where you could explore a country a month. We have 24 countries to explore.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. And just so I understand this, because I think of a subscription box, right? Like kiwi crate or something, right? Where you have a craft in there. You get the box, and there are. I mean, there are dinner boxes, Blue Apron, and others. This is not like, fresh, cold food.

[Rowena Shara]

Right. It's not a meal kit. So you have to go to grocery shopping.

[Guy Raz]

I gotcha.

[Rowena Shara]

For your grocery and the vegetables. Yeah. Because I truly believe going to shopping is an experience. It's really a teaching moment where you can teach children about the food, about the nutrients, and it's, like, really an activity for the family.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so just give me an example. Like a box. Like, let's say I get Japan. What would be in the box?

[Rowena Shara]

So in our Japan box, you will make okonomiyaki, a katsu, which can be made both vegan and also a chicken katsu. And then we also have teriyaki, but.

[Guy Raz]

They come with what? They come with, like, packets of sauce and seasonings.

[Rowena Shara]

Yeah, exactly. You come with the katsu sauce. It comes with the teriyaki sauce. It comes with, actually nori, from that we found from this Mount Fuji, where the wasabi was actually harvested with the water from the spring water of Mount Fuji in a little packet. So it's four servings per recipe. So each box is about 12 servings.

[Guy Raz]

And just briefly, Rowena, I mean, I'm assuming that you have a food, color, culinary background. How did you come up with this idea for this business?

[Rowena Shara]

This is sort of my second career. My first career was on Wall Street. I was very lucky to be able to live in, like, many different countries and travel a lot for my old job. And then this idea came to me, actually, when I was in Thailand with my two kids, and they were looking at me at a cooking class with an onion. I call it my onion moment because they look at me. They're like, mom, what do you want me to do? And they were like, 9 and 11. And I was, like, appalled because, like, at that age, I was making meal for myself and for my family. And so it was like, you know, kids these days, they're just so busy with schoolwork and everything. I just, like, didn't want them in my kitchen. It was my space, which was the wrong thing. Kids need to learn is a life skill. They need to fail. They need to get cut. So I sort of realizing that I kind of missed that moment of bonding with my kids, cooking with them, teaching them. And so that was why I started it. I kind of came back from that trip, took a sabbatical, and never went back to finance.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

All right, so before. Jack, before we get to. You may have some questions. Rowena, just curious, what is your challenge that you're trying to kind of deal with? What's your question for us?

[Rowena Shara]

So we've been around for, you know, we started in late 2018. In fact, we met and I gave you a box when? At the first How I built this summit. You did.

[Jack Conte]

You came to the first How I.

[Guy Raz]

Built the summit in 2018, and you gave me a box. I knew this looked familiar.

[Rowena Shara]

I gave you the Japan box because you live in Japan for a while.

[Guy Raz]

I did when I was a little boy.

[Jack Conte]

You came to the summit.

[Guy Raz]

This is unbelievable. This is like this episode. It's like, this is your life. I'm meeting all these old friends, so. And one day, we're gonna bring that summit back. And you're gonna come again.

[Rowena Shara]

Yes, yes, I will be in person.

[Guy Raz]

Incredible. Okay, so you're now in business for. You've been in business for six years? Seven years.

[Rowena Shara]

Yes. Almost six years. Yeah. Six years. And so I have two questions. I really want to adapt E2X4 to all ages. And now how do I really do that shift without confusing our client, our customer base? And the second question is community. I've been trying to build more of a community. I just started a YouTube live once a month where I do a live cooking show around the world. Small audience, but it's growing. And I have a membership portal. We always share new recipes. We have videos, blogs, books, recommendation. We try to put playlists together. So it's like, how can I really cultivate that sense of community and growing from there?

[Jack Conte]

I think it's great that you're focusing on community. There's so much about a focus on community for a product or an experience like this that really helps cultivate and.

Sort of grow from the inside out.

And I'm reminded there's an amazing book by an author named Zoe. I think Frade Blennaer is how you say her name. And the book is called Super Fandom. And it's about turning fans into super fans.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Jack Conte]

And how do you sort of cultivate that sense of identity and belonging and.

Community amongst those super fans?

And she offers a number of ways to do that that I found just very helpful as I think about building Patreon, building Pomplamoose, my endeavors. So I'll list some of the ways that she talks about them. First is pilgrimages. And so like the how I built this summit where like people from all over the country come together, you know, to Mecca, you know, to hang with guy like that trek. That output of work and buying a plane ticket and going to meet like that in and of itself changes my.

Brain as a fan to become more of a super fan.

The activity of going on a pilgrimage.

To go somewhere and do something that.

I believe in with people who I think are like me, that's a key thing.

And so we see a lot of creators doing that now.

Max Joseph just had a screening for one of his recent YouTube videos.

Beau Miles, who's an amazing filmmaker on.

YouTube, is going all over Australia where.

He lives and renting theaters and selling out 1400 person theaters and screening his YouTube videos and doing Q&As with his fans.

Wow. Number two is content creation. A lot of fans like to make things. Anyway, it sounds like you have a blog and I just checked out the website. You sort of like create articles to kind of get folks to get interested in it. Like employing your community to write some.

Of those blog posts and having maybe.

A portal where people can upload their creations or pictures of their cooking or their recipes. Like getting the community to generate content and create content helps turn a fan into super fans. Another thing is creating collections of work. And so this is like a classic example of this is like Grateful Dead recordings. Like there were fans who would organize and catalog Grateful Dead recordings that build.

Spreadsheets and share those spreadsheets with the community.

So people could say, like catalog creation. Collection creation is a expression of super.

Fandom and community building.

And so, you know, any of those types of things are really amazing at.

Bringing people together around shared goals and.

Helping people sort of really exercise and.

Express their fandom for your brand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I mean, that Grateful Dead analogy is so. It's just so like spot on because that started out as a thing and the band was like, great. They embraced it. And people went to the shows and traded their recordings. Rowena, I have a. I just am writing down notes. So, like, frantically listening to Jack because I'm like, yes, yes. This is. Actually applies to what I do. But I want to address the other question you had, which was about offering up another kit. Right. Because you're concerned about whether you're going to dilute the brand if you offer a kit. And it was kit for adults, right?

[Rowena Shara]

Yes. Like all ages. Like literally making our cooking kit to all ages.

[Guy Raz]

Because it's. Right now it's designed for really. For kids with their adults with them, right?

Yeah, exactly.

[Rowena Shara]

I mean, that's also a, like, a fun cooking tool that sometimes some of them are more kid friendly. And we have, like, a little book that is a little bit more kid friendly. So we almost have to, like, tweak a lot of the content, not the recipes.

[Guy Raz]

I have an idea for you, and if this works, I want a free subscription for a year. Okay, I'm gonna give you my idea. I think because you don't really have to differentiate. You don't have to dilute the bread. You keep the. Keep kits going. But you offer this sort of adult kit based around cocktails from around the world. So maybe you do like caipirinha. And obviously you don't want to get into the booze business because that's heavily regulated. Let them go to the liquor store. But you have everything in there. Or the sangria or a Negroni.

[Rowena Shara]

Yep. You know what? You're like one of many people like as I'm talking to customers.

[Guy Raz]

Sorry.

[Rowena Shara]

Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Every great, original idea is so original.

[Rowena Shara]

I actually have a drink to explore.

[Guy Raz]

I have a domain. That's my balloon. You just. My entire. You just demolished my ego.

[Jack Conte]

Wait, can I talk about why I think Gaia has a good idea here, though? Because I actually do think that's a good idea. There's a thing sometimes that businesses try.

To do when they try to break.

Into a new market where they try to get a completely new customer who's not in their current customer base to enjoy their product and sell their product to. That can work, and it does sometimes. But there's another way to expand to a different market and to a different segment or different audience, which is to.

Grow through your current customers.

So, like, for what Guy was just talking about, maybe a great example of this is in Pixar movies, there's always a joke that works for the adults, too. In the movie, it's like a kid's movie. But actually adults really like the movies too. So like, what can you put in the boxes or the kits or in.

That experience that works for your current customers but satisfies the part of them.

That'S maybe more adult and less about all ages? And then what you'll find is they.

Might start telling their friends about that product and you'll have that same word.

Of mouth growth cycle that you have through your current product, but by expanding through your current customers as opposed to trying to find some completely separate customer base, which is a much harder motion to sort of accomplish as a business owner and product builder.

[Rowena Shara]

So question I want to ask both of you, what do you think about adding like a cocktail mix card right. For every country box and that you can make it non alcoholic and alcoholic so that everybody can do it?

[Guy Raz]

I think that's a great idea.

[Jack Conte]

And is the idea, Rowena, when you say all ages products, is it like, can you give me an example of what specifically you mean by that? The cocktails would be a great example. But are you trying to reach families with 15 year old kids as opposed to 8 year old kids?

Or are you trying to reach not.

Families but adults who are in their 40s and 50s and want something completely unrelated to kids or empty nesters? Is that what you're talking about when you're saying all ages?

[Rowena Shara]

Yes. Okay, like young adults. Who wants to, even a group of 20 something year old who wants to like celebrate Cinco de Mayo and do a Mexican, you know, feast. And we can provide everything, including, you know, the cocktail mix. So like every, like we already have the spices, the condiments, the recipes, you know, information to learn about the country, you know, so it's, it's already there. I'm just trying to like repackaging it and retargeting a little bit to make it a bigger market. Like it's so hard, you know, growing a business. You're spending more on inventory overheads. Like how can I make the market big enough so that it's sustainable?

[Guy Raz]

That's awesome. I think that you're onto something here, Rowena. And I'm so excited that we met and now I remember and thank you for coming to the How I Built built this summit. We're going to do it again. Rowena, sharer of Eat to explore. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.

[Rowena Shara]

Thank you. Thank you Guy and Jack, this is an honor.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you.

[Jack Conte]

Thanks. Take care.

[Rowena Shara]

Bye.

[Jack Conte]

You know, when I heard her describe in that last section there, she was talking about like I have all these.

Ingredients I have the operations and the.

Sort of supply chain figured out and it's just like a repackaging exercise to sort of reach a different demographic. Yeah. That sort of made it click in.

My mind of what she's trying to.

Accomplish here, which is like, hey, I've got this stuff that I think other people would like.

But my brand currently is this very.

Like family, kid kind of brand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Jack Conte]

It made me think like maybe one.

Thing she could do is like, you know, spend 15 minutes building a Shopify page that's like a brand for like Gen Z people. And then like make a Gen Z box and see if you get like pre orders and do some, you know, put up like a couple social videos that would sort of like, you know, try to get after that audience or something like that. The point is like to try specific audiences and markets kind of piece by.

Piece with a completely different brand.

Because, okay, what does it look like if like a 25 year old who just finished college lands on this website? Like, they're not going to buy something from this website. It's clearly a thing for families.

And even if you have another section.

That like sells a box for 25 year olds, like they're, they're, they're not.

Going to land here and feel compelled to buy something.

And so she may have a bit of like a segmentation problem when it.

Comes to the brand.

And if she's got all the ingredients and the supply chain and the logistics sort of figured out, then it's just about, it's a matter of sort of putting up landing pages for different demographics and markets. That may not be the right way to do it, but it could be one approach.

[Guy Raz]

Totally, totally.

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.

[Jack Conte]

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[Guy Raz]

Or a bike ride.

I don't really want to crack open.

[Jack Conte]

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[Guy Raz]

Pressed to think that this was a non alcoholic brew.

[Jack Conte]

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[Guy Raz]

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Huge variety.

[Jack Conte]

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[Guy Raz]

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Welcome back to the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and I'm taking calls today with Patreon co founder and CEO Jack Conte. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice line. You're on with Jack Conte from Patreon. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Melissa Spitz]

Hi Guy. Hi Jack. My name is Melissa Spitz. I am calling from Boca Raton, Florida and I am the CEO and founder of Adventures in Handwriting. It's an interactive and multisensory online handwriting program to be used at home and in schools.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in, Melissa. So handwriting, you're talking about cursive writing, right?

[Melissa Spitz]

Not cursive like print, print, print. Uppercase letters is really the main focus of my of the business. I have two programs that I teach lines and shapes, teaches pre writing, strokes, drawing, coloring, things of that nature and then the uppercase letter really teaches a child how to write the entire Alphabet from A to Z. I'm a pediatric occupational therapist by trade, so I work with kids one on one and I wanted to bring my sessions to every child, not just the children that need occupational therapy. Handwriting is such a basic and foundational skill that prepares you for for reading, for everything that you're going to be doing in school. So it is a program for everyone, mainly between the ages of three and a half and six years old.

[Guy Raz]

Cool. Okay. Just for clarity. It's a online program. You watch the videos and that's how you learn.

[Melissa Spitz]

Yes, exactly. So I filmed 15 videos for the lines and shapes and 30 videos for the uppercase letters. And it is a one time purchase and you get access to all of the videos in that program. You can buy them separately or you can buy them together as a bundle. And both programs come with what's called an adventure kit, which is a child friendly little tote bag that has 15 unique items that I hand chose. I didn't want parents running around their house trying to look for the tools and the materials that I was using on video. So everything comes in this little tote bag.

[Jack Conte]

I see.

[Guy Raz]

Jack, you were about to ask a question.

[Jack Conte]

Yeah, I was gonna ask, so who pays you, Melissa?

Who's the customer?

[Melissa Spitz]

It's a great question. So the child is the one who is doing the videos. They do not need help from mom or dad. Which is a really big selling point, I think, for parents is that the parents do not have to sit next to the child and teach them themselves and do the workbooks and do the activities and play the games. It is totally independent child. However, the parent is the one who's purchasing the program and finding us as well.

[Jack Conte]

Okay. And a couple, couple other questions. So is, is the. Where do parents actually buy the videos?

Is it on the website? I'm on the website right now.

It's Adventures in Handwriting dot com. That's where they actually buy the videos?

[Melissa Spitz]

Yes.

[Jack Conte]

And is that where the kids watch the videos too?

[Melissa Spitz]

Yes, it is. So once you buy the videos, you just log in with your, you know, username and password and then you have unlimited access to all the videos right there.

[Guy Raz]

I think I could use this. I just tried to. I just wrote my wife a card for our anniversary and I had to go very slowly because if I go fast, my handwriting is illegible.

[Melissa Spitz]

That's very common. And it's never too late.

[Guy Raz]

I think it's too late. My fine motor skills are shot. Melissa, what's your challenge or what's the question you have for us?

[Melissa Spitz]

Okay, so my product is for children at home, for parents. Right. However, schools got wind of the program and now it is being incorporated into their curriculum. So right now we are currently in seven schools and I've gotten rave reviews. So my question is, how can I maximize the impact of my marketing efforts to quickly grow awareness and credibility despite limited resources?

[Guy Raz]

All right, a lot to unpack there and definitely a challenge. Right. And there's a lot of things that you can try Let me start with the challenging news. Okay. And you know this. Working with schools is very difficult. And I say this as somebody who has a children's business. We make kids podcasts. Wow. In the world. We even have a line of toys that we've released this year. And they're all over, you know, shops and Amazon.

[Melissa Spitz]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

And it's still hard to get into schools because there's so much red tape. So that's the bad news. The good news is that there are.

[Jack Conte]

A lot of other ways to reach.

[Guy Raz]

Parents and also to reach other educational programs that might not be so boxed in with schools. So let me just kind of start with that.

[Melissa Spitz]

Yes, it is. It's much harder also to get into public schools. Fortunately for me, because my audience with children is between three and five years old, really, I haven't had a hard time, per se, getting into the schools. It just takes a long time. There's budgeting conversations. If I'm coming to the school in the middle of the year, they're not starting the program in the middle of the year. And I think I've kind of gone through all of my contacts at this point. Right. And exhausted them that now I need a new audience. Right. But the follow up and then, you know, converting them has also been really challenging.

[Jack Conte]

Yeah.

A couple questions for you, Melissa.

So who is the buyer at a school?

[Melissa Spitz]

Usually it's the director of the school. The first person I tend to meet with who shows a lot of interest is the curriculum director, because they're the one in charge of what the teachers are teaching. So they're kind of the first ones to say, oh, wow, this would be really great. And then they'll meet with the director and make sure that there's room in the budget for it.

[Jack Conte]

Okay, got it. And then how did you get into these six or seven schools in the first place? Like, how did.

Was that just through your personal connections and did you actively sell into those.

Schools or did parents hear about you.

And did it sort of trickle into.

The school kind of via word of mouth?

[Melissa Spitz]

So I'm an occupational therapist and it started by me treating children in schools in Florida. And then one of the curriculum directors heard about it and said, wow, this would be really great for our school. And that kind of opened my eyes and said, oh, wow, this really would be great. Not just for your school, but for all schools. So within, you know, it's only. I launched it in 2022 and it was really just directed for parents. And then 2023 was the first year that it was in schools. So this 2024 is the second year that it's been in schools and the ones that have bought it in 2023 have repurchased. And then I, I've been able to get other schools. I meet with schools individually and I call schools as I can. Those I don't really get much follow through from. But the ones that know me and they see me face to face and they see the product in my hands are the ones that usually tend to buy.

[Jack Conte]

Yeah. Okay, so what you have is like a, essentially like a direct to consumer business. Right. And then you're wanting to kind of layer. I don't want to call it an enterprise business, but like you're selling to schools.

It's not like the actual end consumer.

But it's like an organization that would.

Provide that to people.

And so it's like it's a different.

Type of business with a different type.

Of sales technique and a different type of customer and a different type of budgeting. Different close cycle, different pitch.

[Melissa Spitz]

Yes, all of that. Yes.

[Jack Conte]

And that is the challenge of like moving from a direct to consumer business to like an enterprise business.

Is that like the, the go to market approach on that type of motion, if you want to call it that, is totally different. And I think what you're seeing and learning right now is like, oh, selling to a school is very different from selling to a parent. And I have to tweak my approach.

In order to sell to a school. And so maybe the first thing to.

Offer is just like it will be different if you want to sell directly to schools.

And so just be willing to throw.

Out everything that you've used to sell to parents, you'll probably end up incorporating some of it. But like just know that it might be completely different and that's okay when you're selling to a school.

[Melissa Spitz]

Yes.

[Jack Conte]

Second thing is there are some great businesses that built enterprise businesses by not.

Selling to the enterprise, but by selling.

To the individuals within the enterprise.

I might butcher this, but I believe.

This was a strategy of a company called Figma where the way that they.

Sold into the company was by getting the employees to use the product first.

[Melissa Spitz]

Oh, that's very interesting. Right.

[Jack Conte]

As a CEO or as a head.

Of engineering or a cto, if you.

Notice all your teammates are using Figma.

For their designs and they're asking to.

Switch to Figma, there's bottoms up pressure for the management team or the buyer of the product to then use your product and do a deal with you, the seller.

And so that's another approach when you're.

Selling to an enterprise is to get the people to use it first.

[Melissa Spitz]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense because the teachers are the ones, right? They're the ones who are teaching the handwriting. And if they're the ones who are saying, we love this, this is easy for us, we're seeing really great success in our students. Hopefully that'll give the impetus. It's just I'm trying to get awareness to the schools because I can reach more people that way. And I don't mean in terms of, like, financially, but. But to help children. That is the way that you are gonna help children. Every single child learns handwriting. So I just want the children to benefit as much as they can from it. And it seems like going to the schools is the best way to do it, even though it may be really, really hard.

[Jack Conte]

Even when you talk about this, Melissa, like, I'm getting fired up right now, listening to you talk about the product like you're so passionate about it.

There's such a clear, like, mission behind it.

It feels so heartfelt and important. It is.

[Melissa Spitz]

Thank you.

[Jack Conte]

Yeah. And for that reason, I think hearing your pitch and seeing how good you.

Are at communicating the value of the.

Product, it may just be that selling directly to consumers and continuing to do the work that you're doing and getting parents to adopt the product might kind.

Of create some natural swell and some.

Market pressure to kind of get schools to eventually use it. And it also kind of greases the.

Skids for the sales conversation when you.

Actually go to the school, if they've.

Heard of the brand, if they've seen it on YouTube, if they've heard it.

A couple times from parents who are using it, it kind of makes.

It increases conversion in the sales pitch.

And so, like, building a brand and.

Investing in that brand.

To me, when I.

Again, when I hear you talk about.

This, I'm like, gosh, you should be focused on brand building, because that's where it seems like you're going to have, like, a lot of. A lot of impact.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, that's great, for sure.

Melissa Spitz, Adventures in Handwriting. Good luck. Thanks so much for calling in.

[Melissa Spitz]

Thank you both so much for your feedback, and I'll keep on working. So thank you, guys.

[Guy Raz]

Good luck. A lot to unpack with our guests today, but I think a lot of really interesting ideas and interesting approaches.

[Jack Conte]

You know what stood out to me, guys? Like, the hard thing is getting a brand out there, getting in front of.

[Guy Raz]

People, marketing, that's really hard.

[Jack Conte]

Getting your idea out that's like the.

Sort of common thread across all of these questions, right?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Jack Conte]

It's funny, I think that challenge never goes away for businesses. It's not like you get good at it and then you're great at it and then you don't have to worry about marketing anymore.

I think even as a business scales.

The industry changes, the world changes, a platform goes under and a new platform pops up. And now it's not about long form videos anymore, it's about short form videos. You need to totally pivot your content strategy and your marketing strategy. Like the world change just changes, attention changes.

And so marketing is this kind of never ending, always evolving challenge that always.

Requires a really intense deep dive to get it to work.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Jack, before I let you go, just one last question for you, which is.

If you were to go back, if.

You go back to your time starting Patreon and now you know so much more, right, in this very long journey you've been on, what do you wish you would have known back then that might have been helpful for you when you were starting out?

[Jack Conte]

What a hard and good question.

[Guy Raz]

Yes, hard.

[Jack Conte]

I know in the very beginning I knew nothing about building a business or scaling a technology product or building software.

Or building operations or hiring executives or.

Managing a team or, you know, nothing.

I knew nothing about building a business.

And so one of the patterns that ended up being very helpful to me was a lot of curiosity and cross.

Indexing across a bunch of different opinions.

To figure out what is the right and best path to go forward with. Now that's a good and right pattern early on, but don't let that linger too long. There comes a point where you have pretty good judgment. You've seen a bunch of things before.

And rather than cross indexing a bunch.

Of different disparate opinions, if I could go back in time, I'd tell myself.

Figure out what you want to do, what kind of company you want to.

Build, what kind of culture you want.

To have, where you think the business.

Needs to go and pursue that. Rather than kind of finding the path.

Of least resistance between 15 different opinions and making sure that everybody's happy with where we're going, and trying to operate through consensus, using my own internal conviction as a North Star for my decision.

Making and for what to do in tricky situations, I wish I had shifted to that second mode of decision making much, much sooner than I ended up doing.

[Guy Raz]

Jack Conti, co founder and CEO of Patreon, thanks so much for joining us again.

[Jack Conte]

Thanks for having me. So good to to be here and this was really fun.

Thanks.

[Guy Raz]

And by the way, if you haven't heard Jack's original How I Built this episode, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link in the episode description thanks so much for listening.

To the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433- and leave a message there and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Chris Masini with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Gilly Moon. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Karla estevez, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Katherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, Devin Schwartz, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey there are people making the same amount as you down to the dollar who aren't stressed about money and you find yourself wondering how do they do it? Where does all of my money go with Ynab? Wherever you tell it to. Ynab spelled Y N A B is a life changing money app that helps.

[Jack Conte]

You give every dollar a job so.

[Guy Raz]

That you know your hard money is going towards things you actually care about. Listeners to How I Built this can claim an exclusive 3 month free trial with no credit card required at www.ynab.com.

Built Life is short.

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