Advice Line with Jane Wurwand of Dermalogica (2024)

Summary

Podcast Summary:

How I Built This with Guy Raz — Advice Line with Jane Wurwand of Dermalogica (Dec 4, 2024)

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Overview & Main Theme

In this Advice Line "How I Built This" episode, host Guy Raz is joined by Jane Wurwand, co-founder of Dermalogica. They offer advice to three early-stage founders, dissecting their business models and challenges, with Jane drawing from her own journey in building Dermalogica from scratch. A core theme emerges around the power of focus, the importance of customer education, and what it takes to create a trusted, differentiated brand in competitive markets. Real entrepreneurs call in for guidance, resulting in a lively, practical, and often personal master-class in brand-building.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jane Wurwand’s Entrepreneurial Journey & Principles

• Bootstrapping Dermalogica:
  • Jane and her co-founder husband built Dermalogica with $14,000 and no outside funding or debt until acquisition by Unilever in 2015.
  • Their initial business was as much an education company as a skincare product company. They launched with 27 products to support the idea of a skin regimen — a bold choice Jane wouldn’t necessarily recommend today.
• The Importance of Focus:
  • Jane: “Focus, focus, focus. We didn’t introduce makeup, hair, nail products. Everyone told us to diversify…no, skincare, skincare, skincare.” (05:20)
  • She encourages founders to niche down and “direct your energy at one target market.” Once established, then think about expanding.
• Customer Education as Differentiator:
  • Jane emphasizes that education builds trust and relationships. “Tell, don’t sell. You’re not ready to sell until I am ready to buy.” (07:33)
• Adapting to Today’s Market:
  • Despite changes (barrier to entry, DTC, social media), she believes the fundamentals remain: “The plumbing’s different, but it’s exactly the same stuff coming through it.” (08:19)

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2. Caller 1: Camille Hardy, Chunky Vegan (Leesburg, VA)

Business: Premium, nutrient-rich, vegan baby food, sold fresh in glass jars (refrigerated or frozen), DTC at farmers’ markets and pop-ups.

Key Challenge:

How to scale while maintaining quality and sustainability, especially with pressure to cut costs by compromising on packaging or ingredients.

Advice & Insights:

• On Branding & Messaging:

  • Jane is impressed by the branding but notes low social following; stresses the power of targeted messaging and the need to double down on social and parent communities.
  • “Education, education, education. Why are in-season veggies important? Can babies be vegan?” (13:34)

• Distribution Strategy:

  • “Niche it small, niche it tight…Don’t go anywhere near a Kroger or even a Whole Foods yet…They could eat you alive with the terms.” (14:28)
  • Focus on health food stores and high-end outlets (e.g., Erewhon), not mass supermarkets.

• Quality vs. Scale:

  • Stay premium and true to brand values. Don’t dilute the product to achieve scale.

• Community Building:

  • “Build your community…keep a diary, write everything down, review and measure.” (16:54)
  • Guy recommends engagement with local papers, farmers’ markets, and parent groups in the DC area for early traction.

• Sampling & Parent Education:

  • Both stress relentless sampling and education for young parents — workshops, pediatrician partnerships, and mommy/baby groups.
  • “Package everything you said into a little program…you’re not there to sell your brand, you’re there to tell about the education and then they won’t have to be sold your brand, they’ll want to buy it.” — Jane (20:46)

Notable, Lighthearted Moment:

• Guy: “You could have a bar…but instead of tequila shots for babies, you just bring them up to the bar and you give them shots of Chunky Vegan.”
• Jane: “And then tequila shots for the parents—‘cause that’s what you need!” (21:44)

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3. Caller 2: Molly Brubaker, Baby Booty (Portland, ME & Boston, MA)

Business: Boutique fitness studio for parents—workouts where babies/toddlers are welcome/mingling. Emphasizes parent (particularly mom) self-care and community.

Key Challenge:

How to shift customer mindset to prioritize self-care (and their studio) in a culture where parents, especially women, often feel guilty focusing on themselves.

Advice & Insights:

• Community as Differentiator:

  • Jane draws parallels to Dermalogica’s education roots, highlighting that students returned for community as much as for knowledge.
  • “Don’t underestimate the community aspect…make every excuse you can to have them come into the studio.” (31:35)

• Use of Social Media:

  • Both note social media is useful but not everything; focus on in-person community building.

• Multi-Use Space Strategy:

  • Guy suggests making the Boston studio a “360° location”—hosting CPR workshops, selling premium parent/baby products, inviting guest speakers, and building partnerships with related brands.
  • “Think of [the studio] as your community clubhouse.” — Jane (38:53)

• Tailoring to Local Demographics:

  • Different locations will have different parent schedules, needs, and cultural expectations. Molly discusses how Boston, a larger city, brings unique challenges (e.g., more options, busier parents).

• Cautions on Expansion:

  • Jane questions the timing of rapid expansion: “That’s a big chunk to bite off…Portland is a great location. Boston is a great location…I would think one would be enough to manage until you feel really strongly you’ve got it worked out and then expand.” (36:29)
  • Nonetheless, acknowledges learning comes from bold moves.

• Strategic Partnerships:

  • Guy urges reaching out to baby/parent brands for collaborative marketing/events. “Partnerships, partnerships, partnerships…little things like that actually can have a cumulative effect over time.” (39:59)

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4. Caller 3: Sarah Wyman, Paradis Sport (Lakeville, CT)

Business: Performance underwear for female athletes — designed by women, for women. High technical and sustainability standards.

Key Challenge:

Should they expand to new verticals (sports bras, shorts), or focus on dominating the underwear space first?

Advice & Insights:

• Niche Mastery vs. Expansion:

  • Jane (pro-focus): Stick with underwear for now. “I would not expand. You’ve got to own this underwear niche…[Don’t] spread yourself too thin.” (49:15)
  • Suggests there's room for more specialized underwear (e.g. for pregnancy, specific sports, even men) before adding new categories like bras/shorts.

• Guy (pro-strategic expansion):

  • Advocates for considering bras, as solving both common pain points (underwear plus sports bras) could cement customer loyalty.
  • “If you want to scale something…underwear by women, for women athletes…build a whole business and scale a whole business on just one thing?” (51:48)

• Considerations for the Founder:

  • Sarah notes the added complexity of producing bras (size/SKU proliferation, minimums).
  • Jane recommends listening to Sarah Blakely’s (Spanx) episode: starting with one thing, nailing it, and then expanding.

• Brand Storytelling:

  • Discussion on the brand’s homage to Marie Paradis, first woman to climb Mont Blanc, and leveraging that narrative for marketing.

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5. Founder Wisdom: Jane’s Final Reflection

• On impostor syndrome and the myth of the "expert":
  • “I wish I’d known sooner that there are no real experts out there...You know your business the best...There’s no one that’s going to love your brand the way you do.” (56:01)

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Notable Quotes (w/ Timestamps & Attribution)

• On Focus & Niche:
  “Focus, focus, focus. We didn’t introduce makeup, we didn’t introduce hair products, we didn’t introduce nail products…Skincare, Skincare, skincare.”
  — Jane Wurwand, (05:20)

• On Trust & Education:
  “Tell, don’t sell. You’re not ready to sell until I am ready to buy. And…I want to want your product, I want to understand what it does…”
  — Jane Wurwand, (07:33)

• On Community:
  “What everyone is craving right now is community and connection…Make every excuse you can to have them come in to the studio.”
  — Jane Wurwand, (31:35)

• On Expansion Risks:
  “That’s a big chunk to bite off and try and carry…Portland is a great location. Boston is a great location. I would think one would be enough to manage until you feel really strongly…Then expand to the second.”
  — Jane Wurwand, (36:29)

• On Self-Reliance:
  “There are no real experts out there...You know your business the best. You know what's driving it for you emotionally, you know your customers when you're an entrepreneur.”
  — Jane Wurwand, (56:01)

• On Early-Stage Experimentation:
  “This is the test and learn phase and this is a hard phase…write everything down, review and measure.”
  — Guy Raz, (16:54)

• On Brand Storytelling:
  “Marie Paradis…[was] the first woman to climb Mont Blanc...we hoped she would support our efforts to outfit women for comfort and performance.”
  — Sarah Wyman, (53:09)

• On Humorous Baby Food Sampling:
  “You could have a bar…but instead of tequila shots for babies, you just bring them up to the bar and you give them shots of Chunky Vegan.”
  — Guy Raz, (21:26)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Jane’s Dermalogica Backstory: 02:17 – 08:24
• Caller 1 (Chunky Vegan): 08:42 – 21:26
• Caller 2 (Baby Booty): 26:24 – 41:12
• Caller 3 (Paradis Sport): 43:56 – 55:40
• Jane’s Closing Reflections: 56:01 – 57:06

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Conclusion

This episode is a hands-on guide for early-stage entrepreneurs: Focus on one niche, educate your customers, build communities for deeper loyalty, stay true to your values and product quality, and don’t be afraid to question advice—even from the “experts.” Every segment is rich with actionable wisdom, witty banter, and authentic founder stories, making it invaluable listening for anyone building a consumer brand from scratch.

Transcript

[A]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I've stayed in awesome homes on Airbnb in places like Athens and Berlin and Rome. And each time these places have given our family a chance to feel like locals. It's the best way to travel. You're spending a cozy evening out of town in a home you booked on Airbnb. The space is thoughtfully designed and you think, I bet I could host my own home on Airbnb. Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

Hey everyone, it's Guy here. So this week on the How I Built this advice line, we're bringing you an episode from the archives. And in this episode I take calls with Jane Werwin. She's the co founder of the global skincare brand Dermalogica. And Jane gives amazing advice to three early stage entrepreneurs and talks about the importance of customer education for building building a trusted brand. This episode first aired in December of 2024. It's a great one. I hope you enjoy it.

Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1 8.

Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, get to it. Joining me this week is Jane Worwind. She's the co founder of the pioneering skincare brand Dermalogica. Jane, welcome back to How I Built this.

[B]

Thank you so much Guy. It's such a pleasure to be back here. I was one of your first and I'm thrilled to be on this way.

[A]

Back in 2016 and for those of you who haven't heard that story, we will include a Link in the episode description. It's an amazing story. And essentially, Jane grew up in Scotland, tragically lost your father at a very young age. And after that happened, I think about this all the time. Jane, which your mom told you. I give this advice to people. She said to all of her daughters, I want you to develop a skill so you never have to depend on a man. You can always be independent, basically, is what she said. And for you, you became a beautician, which eventually brought you to California in the early 80s.

[B]

I love that you say beautician. That's such an old word. I'm a skin therapist, but I get it, I get it.

[A]

I think that's what you trained as, right?

[B]

Initially, yes, my original diploma. You've got a great memory guy.

[A]

You've probably been swatting up and yeah, I'm still working. I'm just, you know, as I get older, it's good, it's going, but I'm still working on it. So you, you eventually get. Come to California, this is the early 80s. And you opened, you and your husband Raymond, you leased a space, small space, opened a skincare, a place to teach skin care classes and to do skin care and. Yeah, and at the time, if I remember, like people, skin care regimen was basically soap and water. Like people didn't really know. Everyone was.

[B]

Yeah, 80s, it was big hair, big makeup, no skincare.

[A]

And your business was an education business. It wasn't even a skincare brand business. But of course, over time you started to, you know, people started to ask you what, you know, what kind of products they should use. And you realize that really there wasn't anything available, so you started to make them. You convinced a manufacturer to help you produce your products of scale. You called it Dermalogica and the rest is history. I mean, fast forward 2015, you and Raymond sold a majority stake of the business, Unilever, and Dermalogica is a massive skincare brand. Everybody listening knows Dermalogic. It's an incredible story.

[B]

Thank you, Jane.

[A]

Before we bring on our callers, I want to ask you a couple questions. And the first one was about the approach you took, right? Because you and you and Raymond were you really scrap. You had to be right. When you were getting your first products to market, you didn't have any money. You convinced a manufacturer to give you a chance with almost no money up front. And then you launched with like 27 products.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

All at once, right?

[B]

I know if someone asked me if they could do that, I would say no. Yes, 27.

[A]

I mean that's my question. Would you take that same approach today? Like what are your thoughts about focusing on like one product, doing that, crushing that really well for a while versus just going all out with like 20 products from the get go?

[B]

Well, we really felt strongly we had to introduce that many products because skincare as we saw it was a regimen and so we had to have more than one or two products. So that was deliberate. And it also set us apart because you couldn't just grab one product and it would do everything. There was no miracle product. We were basing it on education. We had $14,000 of self funding and we've never, we never took outside funding all the way through to the acquisition. We'd never had, we had no debt.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah. And so to do that we needed a selection of product. But focus is the number one word I would use. Focus, focus, focus. We didn't introduce makeup, we didn't introduce hair products, we didn't introduce nail products. Everyone told us diversify, spread your. No, no, Skincare, Skincare, skincare. And I think niching is really important when you're a startup. Directing your energy and time and attention at one target market. You can expand once you secure that, but start off in something that you feel strongly you've got a unique position in.

[A]

Jane, when you started Dermalogica, totally different landscape now. You know, they're giant stores that are dedicated to obviously beauty and there were some, but not quite like today, the Sephora's and companies like that. I mean on the one hand it's a lot easier, the barrier to entry is lower, there are lots of co manufacturers, you don't need as much money to start. But on the other hand it is just a massive market to break into. It is so challenging. If you were to start Dermalogica today, right. What do you think you would have to do differently to gain traction?

[B]

You know, it's really interesting. I would do exactly the same as we did when we started. I would niche it with education. It's a different environment but people still want to hear expert advice. And you know, even the most entertaining 10 year old on TikTok talking about aging, skincare is not. That's entertainment. It's not that they might not have some good points, but the different thing is about and it is very different because the barrier to entry is easier. Now you can set up your own channel in your kitchen if you wanted to and plenty of people do. However, that is not as solid a relationship as we had to build, which was literally word of mouth. You had to meet that person, you had to touch that person, you had to introduce your product to them. There was no Internet, there was no cell phone.

[A]

A better, simpler time, Jane.

[B]

Yeah, Simp. And when you built it, that relationship was real. That comes first before the sale. I always say tell, don't sell. You're not ready to sell until I am ready to buy. And the way I would be ready to buy as a consumer is I want to want your product, I want to understand what it does. And then you've got to be able to build an emotion in me that says, oh my gosh, I'm going to buy that. Especially if you are in the prestige market because it's not going to be an inexpensive purchase and it has to deliver on what you just promised. And we did that through education.

[A]

I mean, essentially what you're saying, which is something I say often so people hearing this will be tired of it, is the fundamentals remain the same.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. The plumbing's different, but it's exactly the same stuff coming through it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, we're gonna have lots to talk about, of course, Jane. Let's bring on our first caller and find out what is going on. Hello caller, welcome to the advice line here on how I built this Year on with me and Jane Werwind. Please introduce your. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a tiny bit about your business.

[C]

Hi Guy and Jane, I'm Camille Hardy, originally from Pasadena, California. I'm now based in Leesburg, Virginia where I founded Chunky Vegan. And at Chunky Vegan we're on a mission to redefine baby food with farm to table nutrient rich meals crafted for early stage eaters.

[A]

Awesome. Camille, thank you for calling in. I'm excited to talk to you. So tell me a little bit more about Chunky Vegan. It's baby food that you sell how and where.

[C]

Currently we're selling at farmer's markets, pop up shops, daycares and places like that. And it's direct to consumer currently.

[A]

And it's in a like a glass jar?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And it's refrigerated.

[C]

Yes. So all of our food is farm fresh. So it's all plant based. We don't have any preservatives. So it should be refrigerated and eaten within four days and if not, you can freeze it for up to six months.

[A]

Okay, Camille. I'm assuming, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm gonna assume that this business started because you became a parent.

[C]

It absolutely did start because it became a parent. And it also started because when I moved from Pasadena to Virginia, the options in terms of healthy or clean eating weren't as available as they were in California.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And so I had to be really creative and very selective, and I just really wasn't satisfied with what was available to feed my son. So I started to make the food for him myself, initially sourcing it from the grocery stores, but then as I kind of learned, like, well, where. Where are they sourcing this from? And how's the food being treated? I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole. And I gradually kind of refined how I was sourcing certain foods for my son. And that's how. That's how it initially started.

[A]

Awesome. And what's your question for us today?

[C]

So the business has been. We established the business last year, actually July of 2023, but we launched last month. And what I am finding, I'm just in a bit of a kind of a weird space. A lot of the other baby food brands, they say they're organic and, you know, they're clean, packaged, but then they throw it in a pouch or plastic. So from end to end, what we offer, we're just very intentional about the whole process of how we deliver our product, from the packaging, the glass, to the ingredients we source, to the way that we combine those ingredients to make the nutrient density. And so how can we chunky vegan effectively scale up while maintaining the quality and the sustainability standards that set us apart? Because a lot of advice we have been given was to, you know, cut back on our. Either our packaging or scale back on these ingredients, but that degrades the quality of our product.

[A]

All right, lots to answer and lots to talk about. Jane, I want to bring you in. First of all, do you have any questions for Camille before we get to.

[B]

Her question, I just pulled up your website. First of all, I have to just tell you, where were you when I had a baby 30 years ago? I love everything about this. I think you're in exactly the sweet spot. I also have to tell you, your website looks great.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Really good. I like the brand identity, but you've got low numbers on Instagram. I see 267 on your Instagram. Now. You've just started, so I understand that. Do you feel comfortable on, you know, the social platforms? And if you do, which ones are you on right now?

[C]

I mean, I feel comfortable. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, and LinkedIn.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But we're just. The traction is, it's not really picking up the way that I thought that it would.

[B]

I would put a pin in that because it should work for you. And it may have to just be very targeted with your message. It's got to be tight and targeted. That's another conversation. But don't lighten up on that. Go, go heavy on that. It's. You've got a great message. I love your brand identity. I don't know if you're familiar with the company. Farmer's dog.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. So I know it's for babies, but this just reminded me of the branding for Farmer's Dog and those of anyone who's listening who doesn't know Farmer's Dog. It's like a gourmet dog food customized for your dog. I have a rescue Chihuahua terrier mix who honestly would eat anything. He'd chew a chair if that was all that was on the for him. But he gets Farmer's Dog and the reason we did it was it's so much better. He is so much happier. He's like a young puppy and he's 13 years old. Okay. So I really look at that website because there's a brand identity there that comes through and people like me respond to it and that's what you need for your consumer. You're charging 12 on the website. It says $12 for 6 ounces of baby food.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. So you're a high end product and you should be.

[C]

We're a premium brand.

[B]

Yeah. And you're a premium brand. You should be. So you've got to niche it that way. A couple, a couple of things. Education, education, education. Make sure there's a plenty of it on your, on your site and in your materials. Why are in season veggies important? What do people say about can babies be vegan? You know, I mean, people will say can, I don't know, can my baby be a vegan? Yes.

One thing I would say, I love what you said earlier. You've niched your initial distribution to farmers markets, preschools, perhaps. You said I would look at your niche local grocery stores especially. Anything health food stores. Anything which has small. The small high end. You're familiar from California with Erewhon.

[C]

Yes, I am. I love that store.

[B]

I love that store too. Erewhon. For anyone listening who doesn't know, it is a California based grocery store market. But it's very high end. But they talk about ethically sourced foods. This is about your body and the planet and they have a slogan as you walk in the store and it says, if we sell it, it's good for you. I feel like that is an outlet that you could target. Maybe not yet, but that should be in your sights. I would not go to a big supermarket. Don't go anywhere near a Kroger or even a Whole Foods yet. Not yet, not now. Because they could eat you alive with the terms. They would want the amount of product you'd have to supply and you would be carrying the cost of that until they paid. And those payments could be four months later. These are, they're fantastic food retailers, but it's not where you need to be right now. So niche it small, niche it tight and make sure that chunky vegan is found where you can target high end customers. Because your average buyer is not going to be the person that wants necessarily just, you know, the quick, easy fix. They could have found that already on the shelves.

[A]

Well, first of all, I think, Jane, your advice about focusing locally is critical right now. Camille, you've just launched and so you are in the test and learn phase and this is a hard face because you're not going to see velocity and traction as quickly as you like. It's very rare for a new business to do that, especially in your category. Right. Because baby food is challenging. Right? People, they've got to trust that your food is safe and healthy for their child. Right. What I think you should consider is thinking of this time as the test and learn time, which is to keep a diary, write everything down, review and measure. Right? Because over time you're going to start to see what works and what doesn't work. I mean, the challenge that you face is you have a premium product, it is not shelf stable, you've got to refrigerate it and its shelf life is limited. So it's got to be sold really quickly. So over time, could you serve it in the frozen section? Could it be? I think you could preserve most of the nutrients if you freeze it.

[B]

I like that better, it looks better. I think that's a great advantage actually.

[A]

Is there a world where you would consider maybe high pressure processing to preserve the nutrients and putting it also in the refrigerated section, but maybe it would extend the shelf life longer. Maybe you use.

Other packaging that's not so heavy. I love glass. I'm a big fan of glass and glass is heavy. So grocers don't always like it, but nobody recycles plastic. Those pouches are challenging. But I think that you're going to learn over time what works. And now is the time to really lean into the newspaper in Leesburg, the alternative weeklies, the farmers markets, parent groups, and start to develop a following there. Because you're just outside of one of the most important media and cultural centers in the United states, the Washington, D.C. metro metropolitan area. There's an opportunity to kind of get. Get a foothold in that market. But I think that right now, as you're starting, you really want to just measure what people say. You want to write things down, you want to ask people for their feedback, and you want to start to see how you might make it even more accessible to people over time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And build your community.

[C]

Yeah, we've done that. We have. We literally started surveys, doing. Conducting surveys and case studies.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Last April. So that's. That's been ongoing and we've been getting a lot of feedback, and that's what allowed us to refine our. The. The meal offerings to, like, these six staple things that we launched with. Now that we've launched and we're opening up to a wider audience, we're still getting more. More feedback, more input that we can further refine and just see how we can go from there.

[A]

What I like about what you're doing is that it is a. You're focusing on nutrient density, something that people are really interested in. And Jane, I think this goes to right back to what we talked about earlier, which is the fundamentals. Like, in this case, a lot of your energy has to be aimed towards really doubling down on educating parents. Like, are they gonna get everything they want from the big brands that are available on the shelves? It might be fine enough for them. But what you're saying is, look, this is different.

[B]

I think it's critical because you don't want to be confused with another baby food. This is not actually a baby food. This is a healthy start to your child's life. So be prepared that not everyone is going to want to go with you. That's fine. You don't need them. You need a very small percentage to go with you. So target them hard. Speak to their mind, to their heart, and they'll be there. Because this is the right thing. It is the right thing to be available. And I feel like you have a great opportunity, but you're in the sample. You're in the first sample.

[A]

Sample, sample, sample, sample, sample.

[C]

And that's been the closer that's been what gets people in and they buy, is offering the tasting. So everywhere we go, we have samples, but we're Trying to create. It's not just a baby food brand. We want a community. We want awareness. We want education. So we want to teach parents the repercussions of the convenience of grabbing that pouch and having something that they can sit in a bag for hours unrefrigerated, and what that costs your child. We want to teach the real meaning of how true food should be treated. True food is not shelf stable. We don't use typical ingredients. We don't use oatmeal or any rice based, anything in our foods. And that's all very important. And people don't know those things.

[B]

So package everything you said into a little program, a little workshop, and pitch it to pediatricians in your area, pitch it to mommy and baby groups, pitch it to neonatal classes, all of those kind of things that we all did. Because it's important that you're not in there to sell your brand. You're in there to tell about the education behind your brand. And then they won't have to be sold your brand. They'll want to buy it because they'll understand why it's so important.

[A]

Absolutely. Camille Hardy. The brand is called Chunky Vegan in Leesburg, Virginia. Thank you so much. Good luck.

[B]

Yeah, good luck, Guy.

[C]

Jane, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have this opportunity to speak with both of you.

[A]

Thank you. Do you know what you could do is you could have a bar, right? But instead of tequila shots for babies, you just bring them up to the bar and you give them shots of Chunky Vegan.

[B]

I love it. A little pop up in one of the stores or at the farmer's market and bring your baby over and feed them.

[A]

And then you could have tequila shots for the parents.

[B]

Absolutely. Cause that's what you need.

[A]

And then the baby's eating the Chunky Vegan. The mom's got a little tequila and soda water.

[B]

Yeah, it's working for me.

[A]

Our next business, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.

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Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Dermalogica founder Jane Worwind. And, Jane, what do you say? Let's take another call.

[B]

Yeah, let's take it.

[A]

Hello, welcome to the advice line. You are on with Jane Werwind. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[D]

Hey, Jane. Hey, guy. My name is Molly Brubaker. I'm the founder of Baby Booty and we are based in Portland, Maine. Baby Booty is boutique fitness for parents where you bring your baby or toddler along, but the focus is on you. So we offer energetic fitness classes based on the everyday movements of new parenthood. So you can focus on getting stronger physically, emotionally, and mentally. Our studios are located in Portland, Maine and Boston, Massachusetts, with a hope to franchise at some point.

[A]

Awesome. Well, thank you for calling in, Molly. So Baby Booty, like boot, like boot tee is like boot camp kind of thing.

[D]

Yeah, like ish. Work your booty. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, work your booty. I got you.

[D]

Like, it's stronger.

[A]

Yeah, I got you. Yeah. And you can. And the class is like, what, you bring your baby to the class and the babies just kind of like wander around and do their thing or are they like deposited in another room where they're cared for?

[D]

Okay. So we kind of seek to eliminate the need for childcare. So your baby's there. We have baby proofed studios. The babies are socializing, they're playing, they're eating snacks, they're playing with the toys or they're strapped to your body.

[A]

You've got like goldfish crumbs on the ground and apple juice spilled. And you got like the workout class going on all around it.

[D]

You know, it. It's a bit chaotic, but it really works. It's amazing, actually, to see the Chaos. But the focus is there for the parents. So we welcome baby wearing. So if you have an infant, you can strap them on so you don't have to think about them. We have parents with toddlers four and under who are cruising around on bikes, weaving in and out of our feet. But really, it's a win win because you don't need childcare. You can focus on yourself for that hour. And then your baby also gets to socialize.

[A]

Yeah. I'm on your website now, and I see you literally, like, half of these moms have their Baby Bjorns on and the baby, like from the hangover, and you've got them exercising with the baby in the Baby Bjorn.

[B]

Is each of them with their own baby, or can you kind of swap your babies? I'm teasing, I'm teasing.

[D]

I mean, our instructors are known to carry other people's babies around if they need help. But literally, like, I look around, I look around my classes, and I'm like, why are more people not seeing how badass all these parents are? They're here. They're getting physically stronger after having a baby or becoming a new parent. And one thing that's really special about Baby Booty is that every single class is half workout, half social circle. So I'm trying to find that sweet spot between you can socialize, you can connect with other parents, and your babies are there, but they're not the focus. I think there's. In our culture, there's really kind of a lack of support for new parents. Right. That's symbolic.

[A]

I've been. Yes, especially moms and I'm a dad, and I can say that as having been there 15 years ago. What's your question that you brought for us today?

[D]

Yeah. So how can I shift the mindset and behavior of my current and potential customers to also prioritize self care by coming to Baby Booty and not feel guilt in a culture where we feel like our kids always come first.

[A]

Got it. Okay, we'll get to that question in a sec. Jane, let's bring you in.

Questions, questions, questions for Molly.

[B]

I love what you're doing.

Let me backtrack because I'm quite excited about all of this. When we started Dermalogica, we quickly realized. We started with education and classes, and what we quickly realized was students who were already qualified and working in salons were coming back to the same class more than once, which seemed odd because they'd already learned, you know, about acne or whatever it was. What we realized was they weren't just coming for the education, they were coming for the community. And I think that's exactly what you've got. I think you've got a workout studio. But what is, I'm willing to bet one of the strongest pulls for people to come there is because, yes, they can bring their baby, so that solves the childcare issue. Secondly, they're with a like minded group. It's connection, it's community, it's sisterhood. It is knowing that you're not on your own, knowing that you're not the only one that doesn't get it right first time. That is critically important because what everyone is craving right now is community and connection. So I would just really emphasize to you, don't underestimate this community aspect. Make every excuse you can to have them come in to the studio. Whether it's a workshop, whether it's a baby class, whether it's somebody giving a presentation on something. Get it on social media. I looked at your Instagram just quickly and you've only got a little over 3,000 people. You can get more than that.

[A]

It's pretty good, actually.

[B]

It's not bad. But your mums can keep. Your mums can kind of flesh that out themselves. You know, have them post, do little competitions when they post. Anything you can think about, any idea that builds community, build it in your business.

[D]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So you have a membership. There's a membership aspect to this. And what does that look like?

[D]

Yeah, so you can join as an unlimited member. You get access to on demand classes, livestream classes, unlimited classes in the studio.

[B]

And so what's ballpark pricing on your membership?

[D]

It's roughly like $89 a month. It's very affordable.

[B]

Okay, great. And I can take out a month to month, or can I take out six month or a year? How does it work?

[D]

Yep, you can do month to month, or if you do six months up front, you get a little bit of a discount.

[A]

Yeah. Molly, a couple questions for you. First of all, you mentioned that you'd like to be, you know, one day, you've got two locations now, you'd like to franchise. Give me a sense of how the business is doing now. Are you, are you guys profitable yet? I mean, it's tough, it's a new business, but just, are you, where are you right now in the business?

[D]

Yeah. No, we are not profitable. I have no outside funding, so I've bootstrapped this entirely. I've taken some, taken some really big risks, some scary risks in terms of opening my second studio in Boston. Obviously it's a lot more expensive than Maine. And you know, I've had to make some really tough decisions. I haven't paid myself ever. I had to just let go of a manager who, a beloved manager just because I couldn't pay her. So I, you know, I have a big vision and I, I am not going to give up. But yeah, it's definitely hard and just scraping by each month. I'm just treading water, keeping my head up, keeping a positive attitude.

[A]

Yeah, I love that and thank you for saying that. First of all, here's the thing. What Jane tapped into social media, we tend to overemphasize the importance. I think we overemphasize the importance of it. And I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I do recognize that there are big parts of it that are critical. And in this case.

What you're trying to do is to remind new parents and I think probably most of your clients are women, but I do see some men in the classes as well. So new parents, that they gotta give themselves, like they have to take care of themselves too because it's part of being a good parent. And taking care of your child, especially when they're little, is taking care of yourself. And what your value proposition here is, we're gonna make it easy for you. Just come, just show up. And I think that if there's a way to kind of send that message through videos, I mean you probably are already doing some of that, but I would really lean into that. That idea of like bring you and your baby and just come and we will take care of everything else.

[B]

Yeah, we're here, your community's here and we're waiting for you. Yeah, I have a quick question. Why did you open the second, what prompted you to open the second location in Boston when you said you've never drawn a salary? I totally understand all of that. That's very normal. But why did you then expand to a second location?

[D]

So when I started the business in 2021 here in Portland, Maine, I also started doing pop up classes in Boston in that area because that's actually where I'm from. And I was just so excited. I just felt there was a need. I was a brand new mom myself and I just thought there's so many parents who could utilize this. And it was successful in the pop ups that I then said, well, we should just have our own studio space because the idea is to really have that home base for new parents to have a place to go and a sense of purpose.

[B]

So for all the right reasons. But did you sign a lease on the premises?

[D]

He did, yeah.

[B]

How long is your lease?

[D]

It's five years.

[B]

Okay, so that's a stretch because you were. How many. How. At that time, when you opened in Boston, how many? Was it just you teaching or did you have other people teaching with you or so in.

[D]

In total, my total team between the two studios, I have 17 instructors.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And when I opened, I had, Yeah, I had a team, I think I. Of 6 and A. And a manager. So I do go down, I do go down there as often as I can. And you know, I've learned actually I have to run that studio a little bit differently than I do in Maine just because the clientele is different and it's so nuanced because a market like Boston is a big city. We have a lot of more working moms, you know, career moms. They're going back to work. So I'm trying to navigate all of those like, nuances within that demographic and figure out the right messaging and do.

[B]

You have a manager in Boston?

[D]

I do.

[B]

Yep, you do. Okay. So they have to be your proxy. You've signed a five year lease, so you're in. However, I would say that that's a big chunk to bite off and try and carry. The cost of that, the overhead of that and the just the attention and energy of having to do that. Portland is a great location. Boston is a great location. I would think one would be enough to manage until you feel really strongly you've got your. You've got it worked out and then expand to the second. But that's, you know, that's looking in the rearview mirror. Cause you're already in there. But that's the balancing act. And you're picking up a lot of overhead there, I would imagine.

[D]

I'm just laughing because a lot of people told me I was crazy. I opened the second location when I had a six month old baby and a toddler and crazy.

[A]

We've had much crazier exam stories on the show. I think one the look, I think you have an opportunity here and clearly you're aware of it. I mean, you've got an opportunity here to really build and deepen the community. And I think one of the, in addition to this idea of making it easy, one of the things that I think you can do, it's hard. You're a mom, you're a parent, you got to raise kids too. But if baby booty, at least in the Boston location, can be even more of a 360 location, you know, could you have a cooler that sells premium baby food? Could you have maybe apparel? Maybe you are selling apparel already. Are you selling baby products? Are you inviting pediatricians? I mean, there's tons. I mean, you're in. Boston is one of the medical centers of the United States. And so I would imagine there are tons and tons of neonatal specialists and maternity care specialists who would be delighted to come and talk, do a talk for free. Obviously, moms are busy. They don't have tons and tons of time, but all of those things generate buzz and interest. And so to me, you know, it's hard. It's not gonna be easy. It's not gonna be easy. Molly, you heard the show. You know how much of a. Of a sacrifice it is. But given that you've got the space and you've got the, you know, you've got the critical mass there, I think you can really think of it more as much more than only a fitness space.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Awesome.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And think of that as your community clubhouse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That's cute. Yeah, I love all that. I love when you said have it be more of a 360. And, you know, we're definitely trying. We've brought in CPR workshops and kind of, you name it different mom's night out and things like that. And in Boston, I am facing, you know, the clientele just feeling like that competition of. They have so many other choices of things to do with their kids. They're so busy, they're working the kids in daycare, they're going to swim class and gymnastics. And so, you know, how do I shift them to get into my, you know, my pump station, my mom's club? You know, it's that mentality that has been really challenging.

[B]

And that may teach you something also interesting. You may find that your business model works better in a smaller community and not a city. And there's plenty of businesses that know, you know, they know that target, and that's what they focus on. And conversely, if you feel like you can compete against the noise of the city and all the other options that there are to go there, then, you know, go for it.

[A]

And partnerships. Partnerships, partnerships. Right. I know. I'm saying it three times. I don't know. People just say things three times in a row. But if you can. If you can start to even reach out on all LinkedIn emails, reach out to baby brands, you know, stroller companies, other brands that may want to come and talk to your clients about what they offer. Those brands will often promote you. They'll often say we're going to be at Baby Booty, you know, and so little things like that actually can have a cumulative effect over time. It just, I think people are surprised at how often.

They'Ll receive a response when you just reach out.

[B]

100%.

[D]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

All right. The company's called Baby Booty. Molly Brubaker, congrats. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. We'll be keeping tabs on you.

[D]

Hey, thank you, Jane. Thank you, Guy. What an honor to talk to you. I love it. Thank you guys so much. And it's not just for mom. So, Jane, Guy, if you guys want to come and work out with us and dance, we'd love that.

[A]

I'll put my 15 year old in the baby view. He's a little heavy.

[D]

Oh, I love it. You can just strap him on your back.

[B]

My 25 year old can carry me in.

[A]

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Vice line right here on how I built this lab.

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Welcome back to the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Jane Werwin. And let's bring in our next and final caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Jane Werwin. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

[E]

Hi, Jane. Hi, Guy. Hi, I'm Sarah Wyman and I'm calling in from Lakeville, Connecticut. I'm the founder of Paradis Sport. It's like spelled like paradise with no e at the end. We make performance underwear for athletes designed by women for women with our guaranteed stay in place promise. All of our products are certified BPA and PFAS free, made as sustainably as possible and built to last.

[A]

Awesome. Well, thank you for calling in Paradis Sport. I love it.

And so underwear, how did you start this brand? Tell me about it.

[E]

This is really something that I found I needed. I had worn the same brand of active underwear for about 10 years.

I played sports in college. I played Division 1 sports and I'm now still a very active person.

[A]

Wow. What'd you play, by the way?

[E]

I played field hockey, ice hockey and lacrosse.

[A]

Wow. So you're no joke, Division 1 athlete.

[E]

Well, I'm now in my late 40s. I am still active skiing and running and hiking with my family. And the brand of active underwear I'd worn for years changed their cut and fabric and didn't work for me anymore. I ordered all these other brands. None of them were, some of them were really pretty bad. I'm trained as an architect and landscape architect and I've been running my own design business for 18 years now. And I sort of have that design mentality. And I thought this is crazy that there aren't better options for active women. I just want something that I can go on a hike in and not have to worry about adjusting my underwear the whole time. And then I started talking to friends and I started realizing that there are a lot of other women out there who are looking for better products in this category having that design mentality. I started calling around to factories and ended up finding, after a lot of calling in factories in Asia and in the US found an awesome designer in Vermont who had experience designing for other underwear brands and for NASA and for the US Military actually. And she came up with our first prototype, which we then tested with Division 1 athletes and we prototyped for a good year and a half. We had eight rounds of prototypes. So we've been very laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well.

[A]

So you started this because you wanted to solve a problem that you had. You found a designer and now you've got, from what I gather, two different, like, sort of designs, Right?

[E]

Well, so we have two different lines for which we have a bikini and a thong. One is seamless. They're knit on circular machines.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

And they don't have any side seams. We have a natural fiber line that's made with fabric that comes from sustainably harvested beech tree pulp. And we're adding a couple new styles. We're right now in development with a boy short and a hipster.

[A]

And Sarah, tell me a little bit about your entirely self funded. Yes, this bootstrapped. Okay. And mostly direct to consumer. So what are you guys roughly doing in sales right now? Have you cracked like 50, $100,000 a year?

[E]

We're close. We're really close.

[B]

Nice, nice.

[A]

Congrats. That's great. All right. How can we help you today?

[E]

So the question that I had is that we've been laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well and trying to own that space. We do have customers asking us to work on a sports bra or sports shorts. What do you think about adding one or two other verticals like sports bras or sports shorts at this point in our process? Or should we just own underwear?

[A]

Jane, who launched with 20 plus different SKUs. Jane, what do you think?

[B]

First of all, I love this. I think it's great. I think you have a real shot of building a brand with this. I'm on your website. I love these three women running through the field with buffalo bison in the background in their underwear. It's just fantastic. It's very high quality. We need underwear that works like this. And I think I would not expand. You've got to own this underwear niche. You've got to be. When I think underwear, I got to think parody. I think that there's all kinds of opportunities to expand within the underwear. I don't know. I love Pilates. Pilates underwear. We need something when we're doing standing leg series. Trust me, you've got A pregnant woman in one of your shots. But pregnancy underwear, there's specific sports, I imagine, like, I don't know, hurdles, pickleball, which is huge. Men's, I think, could be the next big step. I wouldn't charge into swimwear and shorts and all the rest of it. Until you've got a great product going here and you've got great attention from prep. I wouldn't spread yourself too thin.

[A]

I'm gonna jump in and make a counter argument to you, Jane.

[B]

Okay, you go, guy.

[A]

I actually think, first of all, I think that being a women's brand is the way to go, at least for now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The thing about sports bras, to me, I would say you should go for it because you've already solved the underwear problem. And I would imagine. And again, I'm. I'm a guy here, so I don't know this as intimately as the two of you, but I would imagine that that's the other problem that a lot of women athletes have. Right. Which is dealing with a bra or a top that isn't holding things together. And if you know that you've solved the problem with underwear, I'm pretty sure you will know how to solve the problem with tops and sports bras as well. And I would think those two together would be a really powerful.

Sorry, go ahead.

[B]

It's two totally different parts of your body. I mean, a bra is very specific. I mean, whether it's your size, it's your cup size. Most people haven't got a clue what size bra they should be wearing. And I love that whole idea, but I think it's too soon. You're gonna distract yourself with the underwire versus the front. Front forcing folding bras, the expandable straps, the.

[A]

The crossover sports bras don't have wire in there. In there at all, do they?

[B]

But maybe. Well, that's probably one of the reasons why people who. If you're larger breasted, you don't normally find one that really works for you. If you put on one without an underwire, it is more comfortable, but then you look as if you've got a dash and strapped around your chest. Everything sort of folds into the middle. So I think. I think it's not that I don't think you should ever do underwear like bras and slips and petticoats or whatever the heck's going on at that time. But I think there's such a market in lower half underwear before you concentrate on top half.

[A]

I mean, she does have an opening here, Jane, because it's Called Paradis sport, not Paradis underwear. So this is true. I mean, there's a bigger vision here, Sarah.

[E]

Right, okay, all right, maybe. But I do think that bras open up, they require so many sizes and that with minimum orders per size, that's a huge hesitancy that I have there. But I also, I love the idea of doing one thing really well.

[A]

But if you want to scale something right, and you've got a lot going for it, you got a great logo, you got a good name. I mean, underwear by women, for women. You've got underwear for women athletes. I mean, you've got a lot going on. And I wonder whether you can build a whole business and scale a whole business on just one thing, right? On just underwear. Especially as the other. The big 800 pound gorillas in this space, the Aloes and the Lululemons and others, they could start to make underwear. I don't know if they do. So I wonder whether there is an argument to be made that despite the complexity, it is worth the risk.

[B]

I think there are companies that are known for their underwear, their lingerie, you know, and they may do panties and bras. But in any event.

I love the idea of going narrow and deep. I think there's enough crazy people like me that really think about underwear in a different way than that would be your customers. We might be divided here, guy. I say go narrow and deep, or.

[A]

Divided, but I love that. And by the way, this is the longest conversation I've had about women's underwear in my whole life. By the way, what is the name Paradis? Where does that come from?

[E]

So it's paying homage to Marie Paradis, who is the first woman to climb Mont Blanc in the tallest peak in the Alps.

[A]

Oh, I love it.

[B]

Okay, you just. You had me at Marie.

[A]

What?

[E]

It's an amazing story too. She went up in 1808 with a party of men and she was wearing a wool skirt and leather shoes, Leather town shoes. And she persisted and.

[B]

Oh, you've got it on your website. Wait, I've just found her.

[A]

And imagine how much more comfortable that climb would have been with your underwear.

[E]

That's what we were thinking. We hoped she would support our efforts to outfit women for comfort and performance. Yes.

[B]

This is a great piece on the website. Thank you.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Marie's story. Plus, I think that. Who are the Maries of today? I have a niece who's an ultra athlete in the uk. She's a GB athlete and she competes in Ironman and she just rode across the Atlantic literally. With two other women. Yeah. And they are out there, the Maries of the world. Marie Paradis is out there and waiting for your underwear.

[A]

And look, you're coming to the table with so much like standing as a former D1 athlete, Sarah. So, I mean, you know, I can imagine that. Are you, do you have any inns at some of the universities? And I mean, are you able to get these to college students, women who are playing on the Stanford soccer team or the, the field hockey team at wherever.

[E]

Yes, I played at Dartmouth College and the field hockey and lacrosse players have been my interns and fit testers and they're incredible.

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[E]

I'd love, love to reach other college athletes as well.

[A]

I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about this brand the next couple years. Sarah, I say go into bras and sports bras. Jane says, don't one of us. We might both be right.

[B]

I say listen to Sarah Blakely's interview with Guy. That was one of your early ones. Spanx.

[A]

Yep. She did one thing right. You're right.

[B]

Focus on that and then you can expand. That's my model for you, Spanx.

[A]

I think that's good advice. Sarah Wyman, paradisports. Congrats. Thanks for calling and good luck.

[E]

Thank you so much for having me on the show. And Jane, thank you so much for everything you've done for women who own businesses. Really incredible.

[B]

Thank you. To be continued. But thanks so much and good luck. You've got something here.

[E]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you. Jane, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question about if you could go back in time and you could say, jane, do this, do that, or know this. What's something that you wish you knew that might have been just to help a little bit, bit more helpful?

[B]

Oh, there's probably so much. But I think the one thing that does come to mind is that I wish I'd known sooner that there are no real experts out there. I mean, there are people that have more experience and they may have had more success and they may have made more money, but it doesn't mean that they're experts about your business. You know your business the best. You know what's driving it for you emotionally, you know, your customers when you're an entrepreneur. And I, for a long time I felt like I didn't know very much. I was kind of winging it. I was having some lucky hits. And there must be experts out there that could be doing a lot better job. And then it wasn't too many years before I realized actually no, not all ways you can hire in people to assist you, but there's no one that's going to run your brand or love your brand the way you do.

[A]

For sure. Jane Werwin, thank you so so much for coming on the show.

[B]

Thank you Guy. Thanks so much for having me back. I loved it.

[A]

That's Dermological Co founder Jane Werwind. And by the way, if you haven't heard Jane's original How I Built this episode, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my my favorite moments from that interview.

[B]

We went to a contract manufacturer in Los Angeles, literally sort of fell on our swords and told him our dream, gave him the pitch and said we need you to do like a test run for us. He said, look, I have absolutely no reason to do this because 99% of everyone that sits opposite me telling me this story does not succeed. But for some crazy reason I think you've got something interesting and I want to be in for the ride.

[A]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message this and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Kathryn Cipher with music composed by Ramtin Irablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production staff also includes Neva Grant, Andrea Bruce, Alex chung, Casey Herman, J.C. howard, Kerry Thompson, Rommel Wood, Chris Masini, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.