Advice Line with Jeffrey Hollender of Seventh Generation

Summary

How I Built This: Advice Line with Jeffrey Hollender of Seventh Generation

Host: Guy Raz | Guest: Jeffrey Hollender
Date: May 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this Advice Line edition of "How I Built This," host Guy Raz welcomes back Jeffrey Hollender, co-founder of Seventh Generation, to answer questions from listeners facing real-world business challenges. The episode focuses on the intersection of purpose-driven business, effective messaging, scaling strategies, and adapting to changing markets. Hollender, known for pioneering a movement that redefined business purpose at Seventh Generation, shares insights and advice for entrepreneurs seeking to grow their ventures and make an impact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jeffrey Hollender’s Journey and Philosophy

[01:16 - 07:18]

• Reuniting with a Co-founder

  • Hollender reflects on the healing power of reconciling with his co-founder Alan Neumann during their initial How I Built This episode.
  • Quote: “It helped reconcile some unresolved issues…a bit of a healing experience.” – Jeffrey Hollender [02:27]

• Purpose Over Profit

  • Hollender’s new book, Built for a Better: How Seventh Generation Pioneered a Movement that Changed the Purpose of Business, seeks to distill lessons from building a mission-driven brand.
  • Quote: “I wanted other businesses who wanted to follow in our footsteps to learn from what we had learned and what I thought business needs to do in the future.” [03:17]

• The State of Social Enterprise & ‘Green Hushing’

  • While the social business trend’s public energy has ebbed (“people are scared to stick their head up”), Hollender notes sustained if quieter growth and innovation.
  • The rise of “green hushing”—companies not publicizing their responsible practices due to political climate.
  • Quote: “There is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things and they don't talk about them.” [04:24]

• Advice for the Next Generation

  • Hollender emphasizes making a robust business case for responsible practices: financial benefits, talent attraction, investor confidence, and sustainable competitive advantage.
  • Quote: “You really have to understand from a financial perspective why doing the right thing has economic and financial benefits…” [06:18]

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2. Caller #1: Christina Molinaro, Co-founder of 25 and Pine

[07:38 - 17:35]

Business: Functional, convertible furniture for parents and kids

Challenge: Plateaued sales after organic social media growth—how to sustainably reach new customers who don’t know the product exists

Discussion & Advice:

• Don’t Abandon Social Media, Reinvent It

  • Social media is constantly evolving; fresh approaches are required.
  • Involve younger people or digital natives for innovative content ideas.
  • Quote (Hollender): “Whatever worked 90 days ago won’t work today...figure out new ways to use social media.” [10:40]

• Leverage Existing Content

  • Repurpose successful videos (“amplify the best performing content with a little bit of money”) via paid promotion on social and experiment with humor and relatability.
  • Show the problem (e.g., adults struggling with toddler furniture) in a fun, engaging way.
  • Quote (Raz): “Try to put your butt in that thing and everyone is going to see that that is a nightmare...show that you've got the solution.” [15:09]

• Newsletter & Deeper Storytelling

  • Create a regular newsletter to communicate nuanced product benefits, materials, and real-life stories.
  • Tell stories about how your furniture solves real family pain points beyond what a short video can do.
  • Quote (Hollender): “Dig into all of the stories you can tell about your business and keep telling those stories…” [13:12]

• Micro-Influencers and Brand Ambassadors

  • Gift products to smaller creators (5k–10k followers), who are more likely to genuinely engage and promote.
  • Quote (Hollender): “People with 10,000, 5,000 followers are more open to doing something with you and they won’t charge…” [16:30]

• Key Takeaway:

  • Experiment, iterate, and don’t be afraid to invest modestly in what’s already working. Focus on community-building and grassroots brand evangelism.

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3. Caller #2: Phil Halstead, Co-founder of Red Truck Orchards

[18:27 - 29:35]

Business: Cherry vinegar producer supporting sustainable Michigan cherry farms

Challenge: Messaging and actions to boost trial and purchase intent for a new vinegar category

Discussion & Advice:

• Clear, Functional Messaging

  • Prioritize communication on how to use the product (morning health rituals, salad dressings, mixers).
  • Quote (Raz): “Help people understand how to use this...1, 2, 3 every day.” [23:39, 24:26]

• Sampling is Critical

  • Convert skeptics by letting them taste the product—nothing beats direct experience, especially for unique food offerings.
  • Quote (Hollender): “Nothing replaces those sampling programs because many people have never experienced this before.” [25:36]

• Search Engine Optimization (SEO):

  • Address confusion between “cherry vinegar” and “sherry vinegar” to streamline customer discovery.
  • Quote (Hollender): “When you type in cherry vinegar, you end up getting sherry vinegar… That is going to be confusing.” [24:26]

• Retention via Email Marketing

  • Consistent but not excessive newsletters with health info, stories from the farm, and recipes keep customers engaged.
  • Track repeat purchase rate as the health of the business indicator.
  • Quote (Hollender): “Sometimes it takes many, many newsletters before someone will give you a second chance...monitor the health of your business by repeat purchase rate.” [26:42]

• Amplify Brand Story

  • Emphasize regional identity (Michigan cherries) and the sustainability mission.
  • Consider leveraging testimonials from recognizable people (chefs, influencers).

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4. Caller #3: Caroline Buck, Co-founder of Petaluma

[30:13 - 43:14]

Business: Direct-to-consumer, plant-based dog food

Challenge: Plant-based dog food is polarizing—how to satisfy curiosity without triggering outrage or backlash

Discussion & Advice:

• Acknowledge the Skepticism, Then Educate

  • Lead with common questions (“Don’t dogs need meat?”) and immediately address them with facts and empathy.
  • Use skepticism as fuel for honest storytelling (“This sounds wrong—but here’s the science…”).
  • Quote (Raz): “Use that skepticism as the fuel to tell your story and really actually surface that.” [37:41]

• Functional Benefits Trump Guilt-Based Messaging

  • Focus on product benefits (digestive health, allergy relief), not ethical motivations—these are relatable to a broader audience.
  • Quote (Raz): “If you start with, hey, it's guilt free, it can be polarizing...focus on the function.” [36:20]

• Science-Backed Claims & Storytelling

  • Use recent studies showing health benefits for dogs on plant-based diets.
  • Avoid downplaying benefits (“as good as”); show why your product is better in specific, evidence-based ways.
  • Quote (Hollender): “If it’s not better, make it better...have a story that talks about why you are better...” [35:48]

• Target Market Strategy: Start Niche, Grow Outward

  • Begin with core customers (vegetarians/vegans with dogs), but experiment to reach mainstream pet owners, especially those seeking health alternatives.
  • Quote (Raz): “You want to appeal to people who do eat meat, but who might say, wait, this is interesting.” [38:55]

• Online First, Retail Second

  • Focus resources online given 99% of sales are direct-to-consumer. Use sampling (free trial offers) to lower adoption friction.
  • Suggestion to introduce treats as a point of entry for new customers.

• Dealing with Backlash

  • Accept polarization as an inevitable part of pioneering a new category—engage productively without letting negative feedback stop experimentation.
  • Quote (Buck): “I've developed a stiffer spine in the last few years, too...You have to treat it as a sunk cost.” [40:14]

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5. Closing Reflections on Growth

[43:15 - 44:30]

• Sustainable Growth > Exponential Growth
  • Hollender advises moderation in growth rates to avoid burnout and operational breakdown.
  • Quote: “I think we need to monitor how obsessed we are with how fast we grow...I would say pick something that is more in moderation.” [43:38-44:25]

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Notable Quotes

• “Responsible business has not fixed all the problems we're facing in the world and we need to make some dramatic changes if that is going to happen.” – Jeffrey Hollender [03:17]
• “There is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things and they don't talk about them.” – Jeffrey Hollender [04:24]
• “Whatever worked 90 days ago won’t work today...figure out new ways to use social media.” – Jeffrey Hollender [10:40]
• “Help people understand how to use this...1, 2, 3 every day.” – Guy Raz [23:39, 24:26]
• “Nothing replaces those sampling programs...you've got to convert them.” – Jeffrey Hollender [25:36]
• “If it's not better, make it better...have a story that talks about why you are better.” – Jeffrey Hollender [35:48]
• “Use that skepticism as the fuel to tell your story and really actually surface that.” – Guy Raz [37:41]
• “Pick something that's more in moderation, that is comfortable, that doesn't create the challenges and the stress and the sleepless nights that growing that quickly does.” – Jeffrey Hollender [43:38]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:16] – Reuniting with co-founder; book launch; lessons from Seventh Generation
• [04:24] – Green hushing and “quiet” responsible business
• [06:18] – Advice for young purpose-driven founders
• [07:38] – 25 and Pine: Product overview
• [10:40] – Social media strategy and reinvention
• [13:12] – Newsletter and story-based marketing
• [16:24] – Influencer seeding for brand ambassadorship
• [18:27] – Red Truck Orchards: Crafting the cherry vinegar category
• [24:26] – The “cherry vs. sherry vinegar” SEO challenge
• [25:36] – The critical importance of sampling for new food products
• [26:42] – Email marketing cadence and impact
• [30:13] – Petaluma: Plant-based dog food DTC strategy
• [36:20] – Messaging: Function vs. guilt
• [37:41] – Leaning into skepticism for education
• [43:38] – Reflections on the dangers of hypergrowth

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Tone & Approach

The entire episode maintains a warm, encouraging, and solution-oriented tone, with Guy Raz facilitating candid, nuanced, and often tactical conversations. Hollender brings a mixture of wisdom from both deep mission-driven experience and pragmatic business realities, regularly emphasizing experimentation, resilience, and thoughtful growth.

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For Listeners: Key Takeaways

• Success in modern entrepreneurship often hinges on combining purpose with a solid business case and creative, shifting outreach.
• Digital channels require ongoing adaptation; what worked months ago may already be outdated.
• Messaging must meet customers where they are: Start by answering their core questions, not just by stating your mission.
• Sampling and storytelling can help establish credibility for new product categories.
• Sustainable growth strategies trump an unsustainable “hypergrowth at all costs” mindset.

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This summary highlights the in-depth advice, practical examples, and inspirational moments from the episode, making it a comprehensive resource for current and aspiring founders facing the real-world challenges of growing mission-led businesses today.

Transcript

[Phil Halstead]

You know that moment when you order

[Guy Raz]

food and suddenly everyone around you gets

[Phil Halstead]

very interested in your dinner?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

That's what GrubHub does. Gives you deals so good you'll have to guard them. Gold Days of grubhub plus is here. Four weeks of grubhub's best offers all month long in May, only for grubhub members. And if you're not a member, you can sign up now for just 99 cents a month for six months. That's 90% off Grubhub membership. Auto renews and terms apply. Sign up now on the app [e-mail] plus gold. Don't miss it. Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show or Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Seventh Generation co founder Jeffrey Hollander. Jeffrey, it's so great to have you back on the show. Welcome back.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

I'm happy to be here. Great to see you again.

[Guy Raz]

You were first on How I built this in 2021 and as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. And in that episode we had you on with your co founder Alan Neumann that spoken to in decades. And in 1992, as we talked about in the story, the board of directors pushed Alan out. You stayed on as CEO until 2010 and by 2016 seventh generation was acquired by Unilever for about six to $700 million. It's an amazing story because it really uncovered the delicate relationship between two partners. And you just have recently put a book out about your story called Built for a Better How Seventh Generation Pioneered a movement that change the Purpose of Business. So congrats on that, Jeffrey.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited about it.

[Guy Raz]

Before I ask you about the book, I know that you know when you came on it was a big deal because the two of you, it was the first time you had spoken in years and there was a lot of sensitive things that we talked about. How did you feel about that? I mean, of course, the time, I'm sure, was hard, but on reflection, how'd you feel about it?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

I felt great about it. In some ways, it helped reconcile some unresolved issues. And I think we both approached it with an openness to reevaluate what we thought we did right and wrong. And so it was sort of a growing experience in a way, a bit of a healing experience. So I'm thrilled that you gave us the opportunity to do that.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, it was clear that there was a lot of mutual respect and it was, you know, it was hard because when partners fall out, it's hard. But the two of you came and really talked about that story, I thought, in a really candid way. I'm curious about the book writing process. What did you want to do in the book? What was your aim?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

I wanted to try to gather together all the lessons that we learned running Seventh Generation as a business that put its purpose ahead of profit. And I wanted other businesses who wanted to follow in our footsteps to learn from what we had learned and what I thought business needs to do in the future. Responsible business has not fixed all the problems we're facing in the world and we need to make some dramatic changes if that is going to happen.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. When you, when you work with founders who have a social mission. Right. Who, you know, who want to. And again, that is. There's been a bit of a shift. Right. There was a. It was a lot of that kind of startup energy happening, you know, sort of between 2010, 2020. I think some of it's faded a little bit, but there was a sort of the one to one, you know, buy one, we'll give one away kind of thing. And a lot of socially focused businesses, it seems like that has faded a little bit. First of all, do you agree with that?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

I can understand why it looks like that, given what you read in the newspaper, but when I look at who's signing up for my class and when I talk to people, the enthusiasm they have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems in some regards is growing. But it's not being talked about as much as it was before because people are scared, sort of stick their head up and say, hey, I'm doing this great stuff. There is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things and they don't talk about them. And part of it is the sort of political environment we live in. And we have many aspects of responsible business, like diversity and inclusion that businesses have a great business case for doing because it has a positive effect on the company, but it also comes with risks. So people continue the practice. They just don't call it diversity and inclusion and they don't really publicize it on their website in spite of the fact that they continue to do it. And that's a confusing landscape. But we can't afford to have business take its eye off the critical nature of addressing social and environmental problems we have. We just can't afford that.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I'm curious because you also teach at nyu, right? You teach a business class. When you have young people who are saying, hey, I want to do what you did at Seventh Generation, I want to start something that's going to have an impact and that's going to be a sustainable, robust business, what advice do you give? Because it's a very different world than it was when you and Alan were hippies in Burlington, Vermont. Starting Seventh Generation, you have to really

[Jeffrey Hollander]

understand the business case for doing what you're doing. You can't just decide, I'm going to do some good things and make some good products and make people happy. You really have to understand from a financial perspective why doing the right thing has economic and financial benefits for the business, makes you more competitive and as I said before, helps you attract the best talent that performs at its highest level of capability. And there is abundant research, much of which NYU has done itself, that demonstrates that people that run businesses in a responsible, purpose driven fashion generate better results, more profits, better growth. And as young students, they have to be very familiar with that landscape so they can make the business case to investors who want to know that that money will be used effectively and successfully.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, for sure, Jeffrey. Great advice. Why don't we bring on some callers and see if we can give some more advice.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Love to do that. Can't wait.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Jeffrey Hollander, co founder of 7th Generation. Welcome to the show. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

[Christina Molinaro]

Hi, Guy and Jeffrey. I'm Christina Molinaro calling from Dayton, Ohio. I'm the co founder of 25 and Pine with my husband Nick. We build functional furniture for parents and kids to share. Where you make your space, theirs in 10 seconds.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome, Christina, thanks for calling. So you're in Dayton and you make furniture for toddlers. Am I describing that right?

[Christina Molinaro]

Well, a bunch of kids furniture is built just for toddlers and Just for kids. And so when we had our son, we. Our furniture stopped working for us. It was either made for them or made for us, and it didn't work for both of us. So you're constantly choosing to sit on the floor and be uncomfortable or send them into a playroom while you're emptying the dishwasher and they're somewhere else. And that's just like the part that nobody thinks about, I think when they're designing kids furniture is that your space starts separating you from your kid. So we wanted to make furniture that helps you stay in the same space.

[Guy Raz]

So tell me a little bit about what the furniture looks like. Is it. I mean, do you sell sofas? And like, what do you sell?

[Christina Molinaro]

So we built our business around side tables pretty much. And so where we started was with a table and a chair set for him. So for him, it's a place to read, have a snack, play with his toys, something that's his size and easy for him to use. But then for us, it also works as well. So it's weight tested for adults. But the chair that he sits in actually flips and becomes a stool for one of us. And then the table flips into a bench so we can sit down and be a part of it with him. So we're not hovering. We're actually like sitting and participating and connecting with our. With our son.

[Guy Raz]

So. So when you put on its side, it's a chair or a bench, and then when you flip it, it's like a bench for an adult. Or you can use it as a side table, basically.

[Christina Molinaro]

Exactly.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. And where are you making this stuff? Are you guys making it yourself?

[Christina Molinaro]

Yes. So we have been making all of everything by hand.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. So you're doing it like in your garage or like you, you. How you rented a warehouse space or.

[Christina Molinaro]

So we did start in our apartment garage, and then when we bought a house, we moved it to the basement. And then a video went viral on TikTok and we no longer could fit in our basement and had to move into a commercial space. And luckily one became available. So we've been there since.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. And give us a sense of how you're doing on sales.

[Christina Molinaro]

So our sales over the past like five years has been about $600,000.

[Guy Raz]

Is that in total or is that every year?

[Christina Molinaro]

Total sales for the past five years?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Yep, Got it. All right, before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

[Christina Molinaro]

So, like I just mentioned, our business grew through organic social media, but we've reached the point where posting alone is no longer enough. So our question now is how do we build a sustainable way to reach parents who feel this problem before they know our product exists?

[Guy Raz]

Okay, Jeffrey Hollander, I want to bring you in here. This is a kids bencher chair and also an adult chair, a side table. It's really cool. I'm looking at the website now, but of course, you know, sounds like things have plateaued a little bit. So before you answer the question, thoughts or questions for Christina?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Well, one thing I would say sort of right off the bat is don't give up on social media. Someone who's very knowledgeable once said to me, whatever worked 90 days ago won't work today. And it is constantly changing and constantly being reinvented. And I think what you have to figure out is new ways to, to use social media to continue to attract new customers because it's going to be the most cost effective way to reach people. And, you know, one of the things I found is my kids are much better at it than I am. So if you're run out of ideas, find some younger people, teenagers, you know, and they might be able to help you discover new places to go, new things to do, new ways to attract the customers that want to buy this product.

[Guy Raz]

You mentioned, Christina, something. You said that you had a video that went viral or something that went viral in 20. What was that video?

[Christina Molinaro]

So that video, a bunch of the videos that have done well on social media were about this original side table that we had built our business on. The one that went mega viral was right before Christmas and it was a wine table, so it would hold two glasses of wine. So you can imagine why that went viral. And then our sales went off and then that when we were able to move into the commercial space.

[Guy Raz]

Was the video funny? Was it showing parent like. Cause you mentioned. Yeah, I mean, I've had. I have two kids that are grown now, but I remember toddler furniture is a pain. You can't sit in it, you can't. It's it, you know, and then when the kid grows, it's useless. Like, tell me what you did with the videos.

[Christina Molinaro]

So all of our social media up to this point is just me in the shop, in my woodshop, explaining who I am, what we're doing, telling my story. So now I think it's more of just like a. I'm in a different space. I'm in my house showing my kid, trying to not show his face, which is, as you probably know, a sensitive topic online. So I'm still trying to tell our story and whatnot. I'm just looking for other ways, I think, to reach them because I don't know that if people are just scrolling social media that they're like, oh, this is what I need. Maybe the messaging isn't clicking. Something is just, it's just different from what I've been selling for the past five years. So I'm just trying to figure out like what's next or what's missing or what I can do better.

[Caroline Buck]

Yeah.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Do all the visitors for your social media come through to your website? Is that how it's set up?

[Christina Molinaro]

Yeah, in the past. And so a lot of our followers and email subscribers and things are from our old products and things as well.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

One of the things that you might look at is to also, there's probably lots of benefits to your product that people are not aware of when they see it online. And maybe there's an electronic newsletter that you can send out to everybody who's interested that shares more benefits than they might get from a TikTok or a Instagram message. And you know, maybe it's about the materials you use. Maybe it's a story about a friend of yours who used the furniture in an unusual way. Maybe it's about the finishes that are maybe non toxic and safer for people to have in their home. Dig into all of the stories that you can tell about your business and find a way to keep telling those stories and engaging people in ways that will make them feel excited about buying products from you.

[Guy Raz]

Newsletters are terrific. It's a terrific idea. You know, I was thinking, Christina, there is an opportunity. Cause I'm looking at your website here and you see there are babies and toddlers using it and that's cool and that's great. And it says toddler furniture that doesn't look like kids furniture, which I think is a great message. You know, a lot of pet owners want pet furniture that doesn't look like pet furniture. And there's a whole category of that kind of furniture. But I think you have an opportunity to do funny things. You know, a couple of things. You, you could take the videos that you've made that have worked the best and you could put money behind them. Some money, right? You know, let's say a couple thousand dollars a lot. But you can try it and, and really push it out on Meta and TikTok and see what happens. But I would also consider using humor like, you know, buy, buy a, an inexpensive toddler chair, you know, wooden toddler chair that a lot of people Might have maybe even a well known brand. Right. And, and try to put your butt in that thing and, and everyone is going to see that that is a nightmare and you know, show that you've got the solution to this problem.

[Christina Molinaro]

I agree. And that makes so much sense. I just started some small running ads just to kind of test the waters and using AI just to like help me figure out how to do ads because it is intimidating. But I guess my other like, hesitation. I like the funny idea. It's. I think I get tripped up a little bit because it's. We're not, we didn't. I mean, we designed it better, but other people do like sell this product. So we have another product in line that's about to launch that's actually, it looks like a coffee table and then you flip the top over and it has train tracks and spots for blocks to plug into and so you can make little tunnels and things. So I think what you're saying, I keep thinking about that table more and getting more excited about things that I could do with that as well.

[Guy Raz]

I think you could do versions of it. I mean, I think the other thing is it might be worthwhile sort of seeding this with, you know, 10 or 15 creators or influencers who talk about toddlers and just saying, all right, we're going to send these out. You know, we're going to take a risk here. I see. These sets are not cheap. Right. But maybe you send a stool, you pick 10 influencers and you say we're just gonna send it to them and with no ask, but hopefully it'll work. And hopefully they might talk about it.

[Christina Molinaro]

Yeah, that's a good idea.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

And you don't have to go after people that have a million followers.

[Guy Raz]

Exactly.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

The people with 10,000, 5,100 followers are much more open to doing something with you and they won't charge you money. I think they'll be happy to help. And that's the way I would build sort of what you call brand ambassadors. People that love what you're doing and keep posting about it because they're excited about what you've accomplished.

[Christina Molinaro]

Yeah, that's a good point too. And I'm sure parents who are busy with toddlers running around would be excited to have something to make their days easier, which is exactly what we're going after. So that all makes sense.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, it's a really cool idea. I mean, again, I think amplify the best performing content with a little bit of money if you can, and try it and send it to some influencers with five or 10,000 followers. That's significant and see what happens.

[Christina Molinaro]

I'll try it. It's so intimidating, but I'll do it.

[Guy Raz]

Good luck. The brand is called 25 and Pie. And Christina Molinaro, thanks so much for calling in.

[Christina Molinaro]

Thank you so much for having me. Big fan. Thank you. Thanks.

[Guy Raz]

All right. Thank you. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the Advice line on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Jeffrey Hollander, co founder of Seventh Generation. And Jeff, are you ready for the next call?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Absolutely. Let's go.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice line. You're on with Jeffrey Hollander, co founder of 7th Generation. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

[Phil Halstead]

Sure. My name is Phil Halstead. I am co founder with my wife Sarah, Red Truck Orchards. I'm calling from our farm here in Northport, Michigan. And Red Truck Orchards produces vinegar from cherries. We live on a cherry farm and our cherries are a super fruit. So they're full of these natural anthocyanins which act as antioxidants and anti inflammatories in our bodies. Our cherry vinegar is good for you. It tastes great. And it's made and bottled right here on the farm.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in, Phil. So cherries, I guess I should have known this are they're like a big thing in that part of Michigan.

[Phil Halstead]

Cherries are a big thing like in New York, Utah, Washington West.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Phil Halstead]

But up here in Michigan, we call it the tart cherry capital of the world is here in Traverse City, Michigan. We're just north of there.

[Guy Raz]

Which is like the perfect cherry you want for a cherry pie.

[Phil Halstead]

Actually, it's a great cherry pie. And our vinegar is made from these tart Montmorency cherries that have these health benefits, but also very flavorful with the mix in. Also sweet cherries like those that you buy in the grocery store.

[Guy Raz]

All right. Cherry vinegar, I think pretty straightforward. You basically take cherries and let them sit in like grapes and turn into basically a wine. And then you let that keep fermenting and turns into vinegar. Right.

[Phil Halstead]

Kind of what we've done is create a proprietary process in which we take the whole cherry without the pit. Instead of taking cherry juice and just letting it ferment, we take the whole cherry. Yes. With yeast, create this exceptional wine, and then we destroy it with this specifically cultured acetobacteria we've developed to make the flavor and the type of cherry vinegar that we have. So it's a skin on, double fermented product. We're not taking juice, we're not taking and flavoring apple cider vinegar.

[Guy Raz]

All right, and so your product is cherry vinegar. And where do you. Are you selling this? Mainly online.

[Phil Halstead]

We're selling it online as well as we are just getting to about 50 retailers here throughout Michigan. And then we're trying to scale that up with a distributor so this business is built to scale so that we can achieve our purpose, which is to support and strengthen farms here up in northwest Michigan. They're in distress. They need some additional sustainable pricing and we're trying to help them.

[Guy Raz]

So you're buying up the cherries and then turning into vinegar. And is this going to be your only product or do you have a sort of down the line, do you imagine sort of creating a broader product line?

[Phil Halstead]

Really good question. We see cherry vinegar as being like a new category of vinegar. So you have like your apple cider vinegar, you have your grapes vinegars. So we can make a balsamic version, we can age it, we can take it and flavor it. If you've seen like apple cider vinegar, but it's a new vinegar base. And then what we want to do is basically we have a pipeline of these new products over time that will bring out great.

[Guy Raz]

And what's. How much does a bottle cost?

[Phil Halstead]

1799.

[Guy Raz]

So this is a premium priced product, which means it must be a premium product.

[Phil Halstead]

It is a premium product. It has, if you think of it as apple cider vinegar. So we have the mother. We have the same acidity of vinegar. Vinegar is good for you. But then we have all these polyphenols and the super fruited cherries. And of course, as we get our scale up, then we can bring that price down.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Okay. So you're still. And I imagine you're not yet profitable because you're still pretty new.

[Phil Halstead]

Unfortunately not. Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. And before I bring in Jeffrey, your question for us.

[Phil Halstead]

Well, when our purpose to achieve and support local farms by producing this vinegar, what we're trying to do is really understand our messaging and actions that would accelerate trial and increase purchase intent. That's what we're trying to do.

[Guy Raz]

So you're trying to figure out a messaging Here. Okay, Jeffrey, I want to bring you in here. You are a healthy guy and I should say I drink a tablespoon of diluted apple cider vinegar every day. I believe in it. I put it in water. I think it's great for insulin, increasing insulin resistance and blood sugar management. And I love it. So I've been doing that for years. Anyway, Jeffrey, messaging around cherry cider vinegar.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Well, you shared with me some of the educational literature you have, which I think is terrific because I think the primary challenge we have is letting people know all of the benefits that this product has. That's a tough thing to do at retail. It's very hard to put all that information onto a bottle and consumers don't spend a lot of time reading labels in the store. So I would continue to work away at your social media. I think that there's many, many people that would be interested in this product. You have lots of information to share with them. And I would drive people to your website to buy by sharing the information on places like TikTok and Instagram.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, you know, I'm looking at your website here, there. It's, you know, it's nice. But there are a lot of things that you can do, small tweaks I think that will help you start to shape your message. Jeffrey is talking about social media, which is absolutely critical, but you got to shape the message that you're going to deliver on social media. And I think that one of the easiest things, the low hanging fruit, so to speak here, is helping people understand how to use this. So, morning ritual. One tablespoon of water. Upgrade your salad for lunch in the afternoon. Pour some of this in a glass with sparkling water and you've got a great pick me up. Just something like that, you know, where it's like 1, 2, 3 every day. And then you start to shape and help people understand how they should be using this.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

I think you also have to work a little bit on your search situation because when you type in cherry vinegar, you end up getting sherry vinegar. Sherry vinegar. And that is going to be confusing to your potential customers. And we got to get the algorithm to work so that it doesn't send people to the wrong place when they're searching for you, because that's critical.

[Phil Halstead]

Got it. Yeah, good point.

[Guy Raz]

You know, I think that for you it's really what you're after is that first taste like you need, you've got to get people to try it. Right. You, you want to generate that first try. And I imagine you're going to farmers Markets, probably locally. Right. But, you know, let's face it, Northport is. I'm looking at the map here. I mean, Traverse City is the closest kind of big, bigger place. It's small, right.

[Caroline Buck]

You.

[Guy Raz]

You want to get to Grand Rapids, you want to get to Chicago, Milwaukee, and you want to get into stores where you can sample this, where you can get taste this, and you got to be there to do that.

[Phil Halstead]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Nothing replaces those sampling programs because many people have never experienced this before. And you've got to convert them. And as Guy said, there's no better way to convert them than to let them taste the product.

[Phil Halstead]

Agreed. We have sampling set up here locally, farmers markets, local stores, retailers. We're down in Detroit area. So good. We've got some distribution down there, about 10, 15 stores. But absolutely, we need to get more people to trial it and then follow through.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

What do you do after someone makes a purchase on your website? When's the next time they hear from you?

[Phil Halstead]

I think we need to improve that for sure. What they do is we bring them on to our email list if they opt in for that. And then basically about every two weeks or three weeks, we're sending out email updates on the business, the farm recipes. We have about 50 recipes online, and building upon that, I really question whether that's frequent enough, whether every two weeks is sufficient. What are your thoughts?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

I don't think two weeks is bad. I have some people do that daily, and I find it quite irritating. And I unsubscribe. And I think the more fulfilling the experience of reading it can be by giving them really important health information and telling the story of the farm and the opportunity that you're creating for retailers. That's going to draw people into the product. And unfortunately, sometimes it takes many, many newsletters before someone will give you a second chance. But one way to monitor the health of your business is how many people come back for that second purchase. I would hope that it would be over 50% at least to know that you've satisfied them with what they bought.

[Phil Halstead]

We are excited about that. We've got people in California, New Jersey buying a third time, fourth time, fifth time, people buying two bottles, four bottles, they're sharing it with their friends. So we're seeing that we just need to grow faster if we were going to achieve our goal.

[Guy Raz]

And I think a lot of it is just nailing down your message.

[Caroline Buck]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

Millions of people are interested in metabolic health, and so I would really tap into some of that, you know, one tablespoon of water to you know, to regulate blood sugar every day, you know, upgrade your salad and then have it in sparkling water in the afternoons. Just hammer those ideas and start at the website and then build those out at the farmer's markets on social media. Videos of people tasting this and saying, wait a minute, this is great. So I would really start with just nailing down the message and then amplifying that out wherever you go.

[Phil Halstead]

I like that. Super simple.

[Guy Raz]

Super simple. Yeah. Last thoughts for Phil. Jeffrey.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Well, you know, as we talked about before, Guy, finding people, particularly people that people will recognize, talking about loving the product is a way to attract attention to your brand. So if you can find, and I would send them samples, I would find some people that maybe are really into cooking or into these types of products. Send them a sample blind, ask them what they think about it and if they love it, maybe they'll talk about it.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And finally you've got a great story. Michigan cherries. Specific cherries that really are about this part of Michigan. And people love that, you know, and, and I think you can also lean into, into that as well.

[Phil Halstead]

Okay, very good. Thank you. And come visit the farm. Bloom will be here in May and cherries will start July.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, I think it's one of the nicest places to be in the summer for sure. Right?

[Phil Halstead]

It's gorgeous.

[Guy Raz]

It's amazing. Yeah.

[Phil Halstead]

But keep it a secret, all right? You don't want too many people.

[Guy Raz]

Coming up, Phil Halstead of Red Truck Orchards. Thanks so much. Good luck.

[Phil Halstead]

Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more collar. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Jeff Jeffrey Hollander, co founder of Seventh Generation. And let's bring in our next caller.

[Caroline Buck]

Hi, Guy and Jeffrey. My name is Caroline Buck. I'm here in Oakland, California. My husband and I started Petaluma, a direct to consumer dog food company making plant based formulas using whole food ingredients like chickpeas, pumpkin, peanut butter, tasty stuff like that.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Welcome to the show. Okay, so it's a direct to consumer plant based dog food company.

[Caroline Buck]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Tell me about. I'm sure the first question you get a million times is, well, don't dogs eat meat? Isn't that, aren't they carnivores?

[Caroline Buck]

Of course, yeah. It's the same question that most vegans, vegetarians, get when they go home for Thanksgiving for the first time too. Right. Like, aren't you wasting away now? Most people, I think, have been fed mostly like a marketing story about what dogs should be eating. They co evolved with us 20, 30,000 years ago, maybe even longer ago, and they ate our scraps. And for most of human history and most parts of the world, we didn't throw out a lot of meat. So they had to evolve to have digestive enzymes to break down carbohydrates and starches. And they are true omnivores, like humans.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. How. How did you come. I mean, imagine you and maybe your husband are both vegetarians or vegans.

[Christina Molinaro]

Yes.

[Caroline Buck]

I had been kind of flirting with being vegetarian most of my life, but didn't really go full tilt until maybe 2016, 2017 on a new Year's resolution, I just went cold turkey and never looked back. I have a couple of dogs and living at the time in San Francisco, I had a very crystal conversion moment of walking my dog in Golden Gate park and him playing with a pig on a leash, someone's pet pig. And it was just like, all right, I'm officially. The lines have officially blurred. I now need to knock this off. So it was a personal dietary change before it became one for my dog.

[Guy Raz]

And how did you come up with this business idea? Did you have experience with pet food?

[Caroline Buck]

No, I spent most of my career in tech. I've been in the Bay Area for my entire adult life. I worked at lots of startups, I saw lots of entrepreneurs up close. It took me a long time to want to create something myself, but it came out of a need and a desire for a product. I was, you know, someone who wasn't buying meat for myself. I was still buying like a 20 pound bag of mostly processed animal products every couple of weeks for my dogs. And it felt really incongruous. And vets have been prescribing vegetarian dog food for decades to manage allergies. The most common allergies to dogs, kind of strangely compared to humans, is chicken and beef. So it's not new. But I couldn't find something that felt like it was a similar quality level to what I'd been feeding before. So it started out in my husband and I making it ourselves in small batches. When you realize how much dog food you have to make, that gets hairy quickly. And it took us a long time to make something that we felt really excited and confident about.

[Guy Raz]

And this is dry dog food, right?

[Caroline Buck]

Correct. Yeah. We make Our food in a bakery. So it's not a kibble. It's made the way like a treat would be made traditionally in an oven.

[Guy Raz]

So slow cook, low temperatures. Yep. Okay. Before we bring in Jeffrey, your question for us.

[Caroline Buck]

So my question, plant based dog food is obviously polarizing and it takes a few minutes to get grounded and what we're doing and why. And my instinct as a marketer has always been to just be super transparent and let the evidence, let the science do the work. But I think the controversy of the category, it can spark a lot of conversation and curiosity, but it can also bring some outrage, especially in the world of running online ads or social media. So my question is, as a brand, how do you feed that curiosity without triggering the outrage?

[Guy Raz]

Oh, I got some good thoughts here. I'm Jeffrey Holland. I want to bring you in here before we answer Caroline's question. Any, any questions for her thoughts?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Well, just tell me a little bit more about the outrage. Where is that coming from? What's creating that?

[Caroline Buck]

You know, I think some of it is that most people have never heard of it before. So I think there is like a bit of a knee jerk reaction that people have of like, that's wrong or that's not possible type of thing. And then food is just as both of, you know, very emotional and polarizing and people have super strong opinions. And especially dogs have kind of risen to the status of children for a lot of people. So what you're feeding them is a big thing.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

And are there any health studies about dogs on this diet getting healthier than alternatives?

[Caroline Buck]

There are excellent studies that have come out in the last two years really showing that they go to the vet less often. There's lots of really specific things about plants that are similar to the benefits that humans get when they eat more fiber, for example, or they have more, you know, anti inflammatory rich foods in their diet. But I would say, like, the most compelling evidence is just that it's as good and probably better than a lot of traditional dog foods. And I think that's. I've tried to. I've kind of strayed away from making a claim that it's like so much better because I don't want to lose people in feeling like I'm proselytizing or being preachy.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

I think you have to question that because I'm not sure people want to buy something that's as good as what they're getting now or as good as something else that they can get. So I'm not sure I would go with that. Positioning. I think you gotta feel proud about what you're selling and if it's not better, make it better. Because I think to survive you've gotta have a better alternative than other people have. You've gotta have a story that talks about why you are better and to the extent possible, you have to have evidence that backs that up.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting because I'm looking at your website, okay, and it says guilt free shelf stable. And now I click on the website Jeffrey for seventh generation. And what does it say? The first thing it says is leave dishes extra clean. It doesn't say guilt free cleaning. It doesn't say a better. It says extra clean dishes. It's talking about the function. And I think, to me, I think that if you start with, hey, it's guilt free, it can be polarizing because some people might say, I don't feel guilty about serving my dog meat based foods. But I think you should really use that skepticism as the fuel to tell your story and really actually surface that. So if you were to make a video or you were to even have a message on your website, you would start with like, wait a minute, dogs can eat plant based. Is this actually good for them? Because this sounds wrong. And then you can say, well, that's a fair question. So let me kind of walk you through it and really say, well, actually their bodies really respond well to simple whole foods like peanuts, peanut butter and oats or whatever you're putting in the food. Sweet potatoes.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

You know, a crazy idea, but I think your best customers are going to be vegetarians who have dogs. And if you can find people who are vegetarians and have dogs, you're going to make a quick connection with the belief they already have about this diet being healthier and the logic, if it's good for me, it's probably good for my dog.

[Caroline Buck]

Yeah, that's definitely been our core customer in the last two years, has been that person who already has made that choice for themselves. They've already, you know, they've lived the Thanksgiving dinner without the turkey for many years.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

How do you find those people today?

[Caroline Buck]

I mean, it's a lot of word of mouth, organic traffic to our site. We do run ads mostly on Google and we do run some like very small social campaigns. I've lost a bit of a stomach for social advertising. I haven't given up on it. We still do it in a smaller way. You're wading into the deep end sometimes and it can be a, a lot.

[Guy Raz]

And you are direct to consumer Only right. Are you doing farmer's markets?

[Caroline Buck]

We are in Erewhon stores in Los Angeles.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing.

[Caroline Buck]

Other than that, we're in just really small pet boutiques, mostly in LA and San Francisco.

[Guy Raz]

Jeffrey, I'm going to disagree with you. I don't think that they want to only appeal to predominantly appeal to vegetarians. This is a very small market. I mean, we've looked at this. The number of people who are vegetarians in the US Is tiny. It's not enough. Right. You want to appeal to people who do eat meat, but who might say, wait, this is interesting. Like, I'm looking at your site here, and you know, I have an old dog, Right. And my old dog has some kidney challenges, and I see that maybe some of your food could benefit her.

[Caroline Buck]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

It's like that kind of stuff, you know, that I would really lean into. But start with this. Acknowledge this skepticism. Acknowledge. Because we have been sort of trained to think that dogs need to eat meat, protein. And also dog food's gross. The way they use that scrap meat and just the crappiest cuts of meat is really nasty. And it's why there are brands, premium brands of, like, refrigerated dog food that have done so well because they are focused on really expensive cuts. You have an alternative here, and it's a great alternative. And that's why I would try to lean into social media, give it another chance. But try it with this. Hey, I get the skepticism kind of message.

[Caroline Buck]

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think I've developed a stiffer spine in the last few years, too. It's just polarization. Comes with some downsides. Right. I think it just. You have to kind of treat it as a sunk cost.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

What's the mix between online and retail sales?

[Caroline Buck]

It's like 99% online.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so these are repeat customers.

[Caroline Buck]

Yes. Yeah.

[Phil Halstead]

Our.

[Caroline Buck]

Our core is subscribers.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

Retail will take a lot of energy and a lot of attention. And if 99% of your people are coming online, that's where I would focus my energy.

[Caroline Buck]

I agree. And I think dog food is still one of those things that makes a lot of sense for subscription. It's awkward to buy. It's heavy, it's bulky. You can't run out. So I agree with you. And also, I don't have any experience in retail, so that's been a big reason why we haven't done it.

[Guy Raz]

I see you're doing free samples, which is really smart. Try before you buy the other thing. I don't know if you're Doing this on your site. But every time you switch a dog's or any pet's food, except for one of my pets, he'll just eat anything. She will eat. Absolutely. They're finicky, right. Sometimes, like, what is this? And so maybe you should also encourage people to, hey, start, just mix it in with your food and try that.

[Caroline Buck]

And similar to humans, if you're not 100% plant based, you still get benefits from eating plants. Right. Like, it's not a pure, it doesn't need to be all or nothing at incorporating more fibrous foods in your dog's diet is positive. That's actually a very controversial sentence in the pet food world. But I feel confident in saying that adding more plants to your dog's diet is, is a good thing.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I, I agree. Jeffrey, Any, any final thoughts here?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

No, I, I, I would agree with Guy. You can't give up on social media. It's critical to grow your business and experiment with small amounts of money until you strike on something that works well. But you got to experiment.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And one other thing is I think you got to, I'm going to throw something at you and it's going to be a pain. But I think you got to introduce dog treats.

[Caroline Buck]

We have a chew like a jerky but not a treat. That's something we've been toying with for a while. So we have like a, it's just a single ingredient. Sliced dehydrated sweet potato. That's like an alternative for like a chicken jerky.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, nice. That's great. And, and that's a good start. And maybe you can distribute that to, you know, some of these boutiques or cool stores that you like that where people take their dogs and people could just hand them a, you know, treat. So you may want to try something like that. But I do think giving people the opportunity to start with a treat could be really cool.

[Caroline Buck]

That's a great idea.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Caroline Buck. The brand is called Petaluma. It is a plant based dog food company. Good luck. Thank you for calling.

[Caroline Buck]

Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Jeffrey. Before I let you go, I asked this question of every guest who's come back onto the advice line, which is if you could go back to your time at Seventh generation when you really were like, you know, catalog business and just starting this out, and what do you wish you would have known back then that you now know with decades of experience and perspective that might have been helpful for you back then?

[Jeffrey Hollander]

One of the things that I've reflected on is growth. And we are obsessed with growth, the bigger, the faster, the better. And I think that that is a dangerous thing. I think that we need to monitor how obsessed we are with how fast we grow because it's a dangerous thing to be moving so quickly and it's stressful and it challenges your employees. And I think that we need to. You know, I was excited when we were growing 50% every year, but it was killing people at the same time. So I would say pick something that's more in moderation, that is comfortable, that doesn't create the challenges and the stress and the sleepless nights that growing that quickly does.

[Guy Raz]

That's Seventh Generation co founder Jeffrey Hollander. Jeffrey, thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Guy Raz]

And by the way, if you haven't heard Jeffrey and his co founder Alan Neumann's original How I Built this episode about Seventh Generation, you've got to check it out. It's really, really good. It's got a lot of wisdom. It's a great episode. Check it out. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Jeffrey Hollander]

We were working with a tissue paper manufacturer out in Wisconsin that made all the paper products. Yeah, they thought we were crazy, by the way, because, you know, we were selling unbleached, 100% recycled fiber bathroom tissue, which was the scratchy stuff that you found in a gas station.

[Phil Halstead]

And we insisted that it said made with 100% recycled paper. It had always been made with 100% recycled, but they hid that in all the. Promoted all the material.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, because consumers didn't want that.

[Phil Halstead]

No. Why would consumers want toilet paper made of recycled paper? They thought we were absolutely out of our mind.

[Guy Raz]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] or on substack. And of course, if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at Hibt at ID Wondere, or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei it was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our production team at How I Built this also includes Alex Chung, Karla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Katherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line on How I built this lab.