Advice Line with Justin McLeod of Hinge

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz: Episode Summary - "Advice Line with Justin McLeod of Hinge"

Release Date: July 17, 2025

In this engaging episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz teams up with Justin McLeod, Founder and CEO of the popular dating app Hinge, to tackle real-time business challenges faced by entrepreneurs. The episode delves into diverse startups seeking actionable advice, highlighting Justin's expertise in building and scaling a successful tech company.

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Introduction to the Advice Line

The episode kicks off with Guy Raz introducing the Advice Line, a segment dedicated to assisting entrepreneurs with their business dilemmas. Listeners are encouraged to call in with their challenges, setting the stage for a dynamic and interactive discussion.

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Caller 1: Jessica Off of Guess Where Trips

About the Business: Jessica Off is the founder of Guess Where Trips, a company based near Toronto, Canada, that offers one-day self-guided mystery road trips across Canada and the U.S. Her concept is likened to an "Amazing Race" experience, where participants embark on adventures without knowing their exact destinations.

Jessica's Challenge: Jessica seeks advice on "the most effective strategies for successfully launching new markets" for her unique, location-based, and trust-driven product.

Discussion & Insights:

• Market Differences: Jessica shares that while her business thrives in Ontario, other regions haven't mirrored this success. She attributes this to varying regional road trip feasibilities and the challenges of replicating the organic growth experienced in her initial market.

• Strategy Evolution: Initially focusing on big influencers, Jessica is shifting towards nano-influencers and local meetup groups to foster authentic word-of-mouth marketing.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Off [09:15]: "I wanted to gift my parents a unique experience without the clutter of physical gifts."
• Justin McLeod [16:26]: "Offering a second unit at a discounted rate for referrals can turn each customer into a multiplier."

Advice Provided: Justin recommends focusing on depth over breadth when entering new markets, emphasizing the importance of achieving critical mass in one area before expanding. He suggests incentivizing customers through referral discounts and leveraging partnerships with related businesses, such as outdoor or garden stores, to increase visibility.

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Caller 2: Nick Kelly of Framework Doors

About the Business: Nick Kelly is the founder of Framework Doors, a New Zealand-based company that manufactures thoughtfully designed steel security doors. These doors allow homeowners to maintain air circulation without compromising security, blending aesthetic appeal with functionality.

Nick's Challenge: Nick seeks guidance on "driving word-of-mouth to accelerate interest, inquiries, and sales" for his niche product.

Discussion & Insights:

• Product Positioning: Nick emphasizes the unique blend of security and openness his doors provide, addressing common homeowner concerns like air circulation and pet safety.

• Marketing Tactics: While already utilizing tactics like door knocking and local canvassing, Nick is exploring ways to enhance customer engagement and brand storytelling.

Notable Quotes:

• Nick Kelly [21:36]: "These doors allow you to open up your home without compromising security."
• Justin McLeod [27:05]: "Customer testimonials and referral incentives can significantly boost word-of-mouth marketing."

Advice Provided: Justin advises creating memorable unboxing experiences and leveraging customer testimonials to foster organic conversations. He also suggests partnering with complementary businesses, such as home gardening stores, to reach a broader audience. Additionally, Justin highlights the potential of customizing products (e.g., personalized family names on doors) to make them conversation starters.

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Caller 3: Chandler Withington of Archive22

About the Business: Chandler Withington is the founder of Archive22, a company that creates hand-drawn, framed posters celebrating the history of golf and hockey. Licensed by major organizations like the USGA and NHL, Archive22 offers unique memorabilia that resonates deeply with sports enthusiasts.

Chandler's Challenge: Chandler is looking for strategies to "communicate his brand story effectively within a short time frame", especially during high-traffic events like golf championships where interaction time with potential customers is limited.

Discussion & Insights:

• Storytelling Gaps: Chandler acknowledges that while his in-person pitch is compelling, his online presence lacks the depth that conveys his personal journey and the uniqueness of his hand-drawn art.

• Product Expansion: Justin encourages exploring additional product lines, such as apparel, to diversify offerings and enhance brand visibility.

Notable Quotes:

• Chandler Withington [34:07]: "When people first look at it, I want them to connect over mutual interests and the handcrafted uniqueness of each piece."
• Justin McLeod [38:37]: "Focusing on individual tournaments can drive repeat customers and create buzz around each event."

Advice Provided: Justin recommends enhancing Archive22's online storytelling by incorporating detailed visuals of the hand-drawn process and personal narratives. He also suggests introducing limited edition prints and athlete signatures to increase product exclusivity and appeal. Additionally, creating focused campaigns around specific events can drive urgency and repeat purchases.

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Key Takeaways and Concluding Insights

Throughout the episode, Justin McLeod emphasizes the importance of authentic engagement, strategic focus, and leveraging customer relationships to drive business growth. His insights underscore that building a successful brand often hinges on deep market understanding, tailored marketing strategies, and fostering genuine connections with customers.

Notable Final Quote:

• Justin McLeod [42:18]: "I've learned that seeking mentorship and asking the right questions can accelerate growth and avoid unnecessary pitfalls."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of How I Built This offers valuable lessons for entrepreneurs navigating the complexities of market expansion, niche marketing, and effective storytelling. Justin McLeod's practical advice serves as a guiding beacon for startups aiming to build resilient and impactful businesses.

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For more insights and stories from top entrepreneurs, subscribe to How I Built This with Guy Raz on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. If you've started your own business, you know just how many challenges there are, big and small. I mean, look at how I built this building. This show came with a lot of trials, late nights, very, very early mornings. But even though there were challenges getting started, there is something that makes setting up a new business easier. Getting connected with AT&T business it doesn't matter what your business is dealing with, AT&T business helps to make it much, much easier. And that's the point of a provider in the first place. Making building your dream easier. Wake up to the power of att [e-mail] that's business.att.com if you run a small business, you know there's nothing small about it. But when decisions begin to feel daunting, One thing that has helped many entrepreneurs is knowing that they have the right platform with all of the tools they need to succeed. Shopify Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the US get all the big stuff for your small business right with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com built go to shopify.com built shopify.com built how I built this is supported by Ring. With Ring you can be there from anywhere with doorbells and cameras that help you see more to exciting features that help you know more to the app that lets you connect more see more at the front door, up high and down low with battery doorbell's head to toe Video capture it all all day and all night and get smarter alerts that know the difference between a person and a package right in the Ring app. I use Ring to check in on my dog when I'm out of the house or running errands just to make sure everything's okay. It's awesome because I can see her wherever she's in the house. With Ring, you can check in and be there for from anywhere. Some features require a subscription and are available only on select Ring devices. Exclusions apply. Learn [e-mail] hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz.

[Justin McLeod]

This is the place where we help.

[Guy Raz]

Try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. And you can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] or on substack and we'll put all of this info in the podcast description.

[Justin McLeod]

All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Justin McLeod.

[Guy Raz]

Founder and CEO of Hinge.

[Justin McLeod]

Justin, welcome back to the show.

Thank you for having me.

So it's Justin, A lot has changed since you first shared your story with us a couple years ago on the show, from sort of how Hinge kind of has evolved to your role as a leader. We will put a link to your original interview in the episode description, the show notes, and you can also find it by searching for How I built this and Justin McLeod or hinge. It's a great episode. Really great episode. You guys will love it. Just an awesome story about how you guys kind of redesigned everything on the site and used your remaining last capital in a launch party before even getting your app into the app Store and all the messiness and craziness. Justin, before we get to our callers, just a would love to get an update on what's going on in your life right now. I know you're working on some new initiatives around mental health and intentional dating, so tell me what's going on.

Yeah, I think these are all taking our mission to the next level and it really has been the app designed to be deleted. We want people off their phones and out on great dates. And if you look at the loneliness epidemic and you actually look over the last 20 years at the amount of time people spend on their screens, we've almost completely displaced in real life time spent with our friends, with time spent looking at screens. About 70% of the time we used to spend with friends, we now stare at our screens. And so we're just thinking very deeply about one how we can approach that from a social impact perspective. But most of all, it's thinking about how we can set an example for the rest of the world, especially the world of social media and the world of dating about how if you, you can build a truly sustainable business if you're actually designing around your customers deepest needs, which is for us getting out on great dates.

You know, it's interesting. I have, I've had a lot of conversations with people in the tech world about this and people have been really focused on this loneliness epidemic. And I'm not convinced it's a temporary epidemic. I'm convinced it may be a behavioral shift in the way we are as humans. And I guess my, my big question and who? I don't know if anyone has the answer. Screens in our lives, right? With the access to screens and the addictive nature of them, can we really break that? I mean, can we. Do you think we have the capacity to go back to how we were as humans?

I don't know that going back, I think that's a false dichotomy. I don't necessarily think we're going to go back to how we were, but I certainly don't think we can continue down this path. I think it's completely unsustainable for people's mental health and mental wellness. I analogize it to sort of the what happened with the personal wellness industry. I think for a while we were headed in a direction as a country where fast food, not a lot of exercise. I think people were starting to feel like we had created an engineered food that was very easy to get, drive through restaurants, everything else. And then we started to wake up to what are the health consequences of this? And people started to design and create an industry around personal wellness, around health. And I think similarly we need to start thinking about social wellness and social health. And how do we think about the time we spent on social media as essentially like junk food for our brains? And how do we actually start designing healthier ways of relating to our friends that are much more nutritious for our souls and much better for our mental health.

Justin, you know when we talked about this when you were on the show, I'm of an age before, kind of before dating apps. And so I met my wife now 25 years ago at a barbecue, right. Just as an in person event before we all were all addicted to our screens. And I talk to a lot of young people and I hear the same thing. It's so consistent. They're like, yeah, I'm on apps. It sucks. And it just sounds so soul crushing. And I wonder what you're hearing. I mean, you are. And again, I've met, I also have know people who met on Hinge, right. And are married and have great lives. But what are you hearing about dating culture right now?

Yeah, I mean, one is that dating has always been hard. When people were before people were complaining about dating apps, they were complaining about. It was hard to just go out and meet people in bars. It's hard to meet anyone. Dating has always been challenging. It's always been something that, you know, most songs are about it. Right. It's like one of the most emotional ups and downs, unpredictable things and most important things to us as humans. And at the same time, I would say I sympathize with a lot of the critiques of dating apps. A lot of them are why I started Hinge in the first place is because I wanted something that actually felt much more thoughtful, much more intentional, didn't treat people as kind of like disposable shopping items. And I'm actually quite excited about the possibilities that we're now seeing because of AI, which I think will even further our ability to help people spend less time on our app and more time out on great dates. It will allow people, instead of communicating to us their preferences through kind of morse code of likes and passes and going through lots and lots and lots of people. They can just tell us in their own words who they are, what they're looking for, what matters to them, and be able to make much, much more thoughtful matches.

Cool. Justin, let's go ahead and take our first caller. Hello caller. Welcome to the advice line. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Jessica Off]

Hi guy. Hi Justin. My name is Jessica Off. I own a company called Guess Where Trips. We're based just outside of Toronto, Canada. We create and sell one day self guided mystery road trips across Canada and the U.S. it's kind of like an amazing race while you're exploring your own backyard. And we've been doing this for about five years.

[Justin McLeod]

Wow. Okay, well, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in, Jessica. So you have a company and you sell self guided tours, but no one knows where they're going exactly.

[Jessica Off]

So they're pre fit itinerary so they're not custom and customers choose where they're leaving from, what type of road trip theme they want to experience. We have everything from haunted road trips to pet friendly road trips, outdoor activity type road trips and then they get this beautiful package in the mail. We also have a digital version and there's four mystery stops and you essentially just open up these envelopes one at a time and it takes you on a one day adventure.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Justin McLeod]

This is definitely for people who do not like predictability.

[Jessica Off]

Exactly.

[Justin McLeod]

So this is an unusual kind of traveler. Right, because you're basically saying, hey, it's gonna be a one day trip. You don't know where you're going, but here it is. Follow the instructions. How did you come up with this idea?

[Jessica Off]

I wanted to gift my parents a unique experience gift. They had too much stuff and I wanted to gift them a road trip. But I didn't wanna just give them a confirmation on booking.com. so I planned out everything I didn't want them to think about. I divided it into four stops, with the fourth stop being an overnight hotel. And I really tried to outline the history of the small towns they'd be visiting. I wanted to tell them like quirky little facts about the small businesses they would be visiting. So I love doing it so much. My parents had such a great experience on it, I decided to start a business out of it.

[Justin McLeod]

I'm looking at your website. I see you were on Dragon's Den, which is the Canadian version or the original version of Shark Tank. I imagine that that gave you guys a bit of a boost in sales.

[Jessica Off]

It definitely did, yeah. I went on. It was featured October 31st. Last year I was offered a deal from four out of the five Dragons and it was, it was great exposure.

[Justin McLeod]

All right, before we get to more about your business, so tell us what your question is.

[Jessica Off]

So my question is, I mean, we're in 20 states, four provinces, and we're often with a unique product that we're launching in these very like, small, specific places. So what are the most effective strategies for successfully launching new markets when you're introducing a totally new concept, one that's location based, trust driven and unfamiliar to most consumers?

[Justin McLeod]

Great question for Justin McLeod, because you had to do that with Hinge, right? Because Hinges, even though it's an app, you got to be in the city to meet them. Right. And so you got to basically every time you opened a new city, you probably had to have some kind of campaign around that.

We definitely did. But I'm curious, I mean, Jessica, maybe I should be asking you the question because you're already in 20 states and four provinces. And I'm just curious, what problem are you running into? Are you finding that just like it's only working in the Toronto area and you're struggling to get traction in these other places or are some more successful than others? And how have you been doing it so far?

[Jessica Off]

Great question. So I decided to start a travel company January 2020, like right before COVID And after Covid, everything shut down. But then Staycations and like traveling locally became a little bit more popular and Ontario grew like crazy like it was. Covid was really a catalyst for our growth and we grew so organically. I started this company with an $80 printer and right now Ontario is doing about 80% of our sales. So while we've launched in these different areas, we're just not seeing the same kind of growth that we see in Ontario, that it keeps on doubling year after year, but we're not seeing that same type of growth in these other regions.

[Justin McLeod]

Any clues why? Do you have any sense of what's happening or any hypotheses?

[Jessica Off]

I think some regions just aren't very road trip able. We've learned that very quickly. I also think we're just not there physically. And every time we launch, we've had some successful launches where we get a ton of content creators on board, and then when we launch, we make that money back, you know, within a few hours, which is great. And then we've tried that exact same approach with other markets and it doesn't seem to do well. We've hired some PR companies, we've ran a lot of ads, and we're just finding that some markets stick, some don't. And with our budget, I mean, we have a budget of about $20,000 when we're launching, where do we put that money? Because influencers are expensive. Meta is expensive. Everything's expensive.

[Justin McLeod]

Well, in Hinge's day, we started originally in Washington D.C. there was a lot of movement between like D.C. and New York. And so people in New York would start to hear about it, but we wouldn't let anyone in until, because we had such a network effects product until we had a wait list of a few thousand people waiting to get in. And then we would throw a launch party, invite everyone there, make sure everyone saw each other using it, talking about it, try to build like a tipping point, like release all the energy at once and then use that to get the New York market going. And then people started hearing about in San Francisco and we kind of just kept moving like that. And so I just wonder, given yours is also. It's kind of a new category. It's not something that people. You probably don't have a lot of competitors who are also doing surprise road trip packages.

[Jessica Off]

We've had some copycats, but we're the main ones.

[Justin McLeod]

Yeah. And so it's something that people really have to get their head around, have to see other people using to like think of as like category or something. So I just wonder ways that you can. Because it sounds like you had a lot of focus on your initial market in Ontario and then you probably got that critical mass of people doing it, their friends doing it, everyone's kind of doing it once. And then it built that sense that this is a category.

[Jessica Off]

And I was very naive thinking, oh, I can grow it to this very organically. And so launching in these other areas, I'm like, oh, it's just going to grow organically. And it's obviously has not been the case.

[Justin McLeod]

Yeah. And we have this principle at hinge of kind of depth over breadth. And we always, you know, it's hard to try to cover up for weakness by just like expanding more. Like, oh, like that market's not working. Let's just launch more markets. So thinking, thinking like, okay, we got one market going. How do we get our second market going? Like, what's the next ripest interesting market? And then putting all your focus there, getting the learnings and then launching your third market versus kind of launching 20 markets and then suddenly realizing you spread yourself so thin and you've got 20 different markets kind of working.

[Jessica Off]

We have totally done that.

[Justin McLeod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wonder, Jessica, if you have a way to incentivize or offer some kind of rewards to people who post about their experience online on social media. Because especially new markets. I think about Sarah Blakely when she started Spanx, okay. She got an opportunity to go to Neiman Marcus and so she, you know, had to sell Spanx there. And who was going to buy? No one knew what they were. Pantyhose with no feet, you know. Right. She literally paid friends to go and buy Spanx off the shelves. I mean, she spent her own money buying her own product and eventually it turned into Spanx. Right. Because she needed to get some momentum. I mean, is there a world where you can send friends to, you know, just have them do it and have them just post constantly throughout the day?

[Jessica Off]

That's a great point. We're not. We're doing something. We just started it this week where we're reaching out to these meetup groups and day trip groups where I'm like, I will give you, I will give everyone in this group a free trip if you post about your experience after. Because I think we were so focused on those big influencers. So now we're kind of rethinking that strategy and just really focusing on those nano influencers or just people who like to go out and post about their experience and they don't have much of a following. So that's what we actually just started to do.

[Justin McLeod]

One other quick question for you. How confident are you that the product is as good in these other markets as it is in Ontario? The market that I guess, you know, how much do you invest in making sure that the one in Connecticut is just as good?

[Jessica Off]

That's a great question. I mean, when we're launching, we go down there and test out the trips. We talk to locals, we talk to, like, destination marketing organizations, and then we pay smaller influencers just to test the trip to get their feedback. I've personally done most of the trips between my team. We've done all of the trips multiple times, and they are great. We are seeing, like, more growth in, like, the Midwest area. So we're realizing places that have more traffic, like Miami, New York City, might not be as desirable to do these.

[Justin McLeod]

These trips takes forever to get out of New York City. The whole, the half the road trip is just trying to get, you know.

[Jessica Off]

Through the Holland Tunnel, Louisiana too.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Justin McLeod]

Jessica, off the company's called Guess where Trips. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.

[Jessica Off]

Thanks so much.

[Justin McLeod]

I know you've got children, Justin. When you travel, do you like spontaneity or do you. Do you like to plan?

We've figured out that the right balance for us, I call it like light structure. Like, you plan one thing a day, so you anchor on something, but then you leave lots of room for spontaneity and flexibility. And you never know, you might meet someone who has an idea that you know when you end up somewhere different than you thought you originally would. I'm definitely someone who likes, as you could imagine, risk, adventure, and unpredictability.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of Vice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how.

[Justin McLeod]

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[Guy Raz]

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[Justin McLeod]

Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Justin McLeod.

[Guy Raz]

He's the founder and CEO of the.

[Justin McLeod]

Popular dating app Hinge and we are taking your calls. Let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and one line about your business, please.

[Nick Kelly]

Hello, Guy. Hello, Justin. My name is Nick Kelly. I'm calling in from Auckland, New Zealand and I'm the founder of Framework Doors. We were set up about a little over a year ago and our mission is to radically transform people's relationships with their homes by providing beautiful peace of mind via thoughtfully designed steel security doors.

[Justin McLeod]

Welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. Nick. Happy that we have got listeners in Auckland. I know we do. So these are doors, framework doors. These are like steel door that you can lock but you can leave your main door open, I guess so you can allow air and circulation and.

[Nick Kelly]

Exactly. Yep. So it's, it's a similar sort of form to aluminum screen doors, barrier doors which are common around the world. These doors install and lock directly into the existing frame of the door. As you say, Guy allows you to open up your home without compromising security. So if it's A beautiful day. Perhaps you want to invite a little bit of breeze through, or perhaps you have dogs that are inclined to explore or little ones that like to wander. Then these doors are a great option for you.

[Justin McLeod]

And I should. Just because we're describing this right, they're like. You can see through them. They're like wrought iron designs. And these are varisteel. They're very common in like the Mediterranean or the Middle East. I've seen these all over the world in particularly warm climates where people want to keep their doors open, but they don't want to allow anybody to walk in. So it's a locked kind of gate, essentially, that swings open and close like a door. And tell me what you. Why you decided to get into this and what you wanted to bring to it. That would be different.

[Nick Kelly]

Yeah. So I have worked most of my career in advertising and production companies here in New Zealand. I was in Sydney, Australia for about six years prior to that. A little over 12 months ago, I actually found myself out of a job and I had lived for a. A number of years in Sydney and Australia. And my wife and I had been really impressed by this beautiful wrought iron door that we had at our home in Sydney. Two big dogs, you know, very enthusiastic anytime someone comes to the door. And we were like, this is. You know, these doors are amazing. When we moved back to New Zealand, we found that there was essentially no one really in the space that was offering a similar sort of product. If they were, it was mainly communicating the sort of more functional benefits of it. No one was really building a brand or telling a story. And I thought, hey, this is an opportunity here. Could be have a really broad appeal.

[Justin McLeod]

And you're making them in New Zealand?

[Nick Kelly]

We are indeed. It's all locally made. We've got a couple of different fabrication teams here in Auckland, which is great. It means that we can stay really close to the process. There's no reliance on overseas.

[Justin McLeod]

And your ambition, sounds like, is to remain mainly in Auckland or mainly in New Zealand.

[Nick Kelly]

Well, look, I feel like I've seen what success looks like having lived overseas. These doors are so common, you know, I feel like the opportunity, if I could set myself up here and build the product and build the brand, then there's no reason why I couldn't elevate this and take this further apart. Whether it's franchising, take it overseas.

[Justin McLeod]

Yep. And tell us what your question is for us today.

[Nick Kelly]

So my question today relates to word of mouth in terms of driving interest, inquiries and sales. I think from an instincts and an experience point of view. I have a pretty good grasp of marketing and brand building fundamentals. But my question relates to driving word of mouth. How to accelerate the level of conversation and drive inquiry.

[Justin McLeod]

Got it. Okay, Justin McLeod, we've got framework doors here. Questions, thoughts, ideas?

Sure, yeah. So you think about word of mouth. I mean, that's how Hinge has primarily grown. Building a good product and people using it and then telling their friends about it. Luckily, though, we're in dating, which people talk about all the time without me needing to prompt them. Steel front door is probably less so. Brunch conversation, usually. And so the question is, how can you create moments for people who do buy your product for them to talk about it? In my mind, there's kind of like two moments. One is the delivery moment, some unreasonable hospitality kind of moment that gets people so excited that they get something they didn't expect. I recently used a furniture rental company because I need a little stopgap for furniture for a place. And they delivered a little handwritten note and a house plant, which I didn't order, but they just had a nice little succulent plant as a homewarming. Kind of love that gift. And it just made me think about them. It raised my. It made me want to tell people about the overall experience because it put such a nice touch on it. And then, by the way, the other moment is every time someone walks through your front door because people are going to experience it for the first time. And if there's a way to call out something that you could give people that would make them sort of remember to talk about how great it is to have a door like this, like a little hand bell instead of a doorbell that you can ring that you attach to the outside or just something that makes people triggered to talk about their experience.

Yeah, I mean, to your question about how do you drive a conversation or word of mouth around this product? I mean, these are. Look, this is not a mass consumer product. Right. This is something that is. It is kind of niche. And that's okay. You can still build a significant and great business around a product that only some people want or have. But I think what you might want to try to do is maybe when you sell to a customer, you offer them the opportunity to buy a second one for their back door at a significantly reduced rate if they refer a new client to you.

[Nick Kelly]

I love it. Yep, that's really great.

[Justin McLeod]

I mean, you're selling these one at a time. I'm sure you're connected to each person who buys These things, I would hop on the call with them and say, hey, look, our business depends on our customers telling people how much they love these things and how much it's improved their lives and their home. If you're willing to do a testimony, even a testimonial on the website could be helpful. Or here's what people are saying, things like that could be useful. Get your customers talking about how they're using this, how it's improved their lives. But I think it's really, it's one person at a time. It's one customer at a time getting that customer to be a force multiplier, as the military says.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's totally right. Imagining those little coupons and certificates, like the kind of give 100, get 100 or give 200, get 200 when you deliver.

Yeah. I also think that there's a world where you might see if you can partner with an outdoor garden kind of store. Because it strikes me that people who would be particularly interested in this are people who obviously like the outdoors and probably garden or like to see their garden or like to see right what's in front of their house. So I wonder if there's a way to also integrate this idea with a home gardening supply store in Auckland and see if you can partner with them and maybe just brochures.

[Nick Kelly]

Yeah, we do a lot of letter dropping, door knocking. You know, I've sort of canvassed a whole lot of the central suburbs and it really is just a kind of a one door at a time, one home at a time, you know, and what's great about these doors is you can kind of see straight away from the get go whether or not there are. They're a potential consumer on the sheer virtue of whether or not they have one of these doors. If they don't, then it's great. You can chat to them.

[Justin McLeod]

Yeah. Can you set up, by the way, could you set up like a mobile version of this, like, you know, a door frame that you can stick on the back of a truck with a relatively lightweight door and one of these frames. And then you could set it up at, you know, a county fair or somewhere where you're allowed to display it so people can see how it actually works?

[Nick Kelly]

Definitely, I'd love to do that. I've sort of thought about, you know, what would the experience at a trade show be? We haven't done trade shows yet, but I'd love to create that sense of being in a home and having one of these doors and, you know, perhaps creating A nice scene of imagine what it would be like to have one of these at your home. Similarly, you know, you've talked about having one of these doors and actually getting people interacting with them, and that's great.

[Justin McLeod]

And then one more idea I had for you, Nick, which is it's very American. I don't know if New Zealanders are this obnoxious like we are, but, you know, at American homes, it often says the family's name, like, you know, the Kelly family or Nick Kelly. Right. So could you. Is there a world where maybe you offer a customized one where sort of the Kelly family is integrated into the design of these doors so you know that, you know you're being welcomed into the Kelly home when you see it?

[Nick Kelly]

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of customization there. I think also opportunities to color the doors, you know, different color finishings, name finishings. I feel like there is a. There's a huge opportunity to really develop the product once I've kind of built the foundation of it. And that'll be. That'll be a really great growth opportunity.

[Justin McLeod]

Yeah. Anything that makes it striking and generates conversation when someone walks in the door is. Will obviously help. Word of mouth.

[Nick Kelly]

Absolutely.

[Justin McLeod]

For sure. Nick Kelly, your company is called Framework Doors. Good luck. Thanks for calling in.

[Nick Kelly]

Thank you so much, guys. Appreciate your time.

[Justin McLeod]

Cheers. Thanks. You can't do that in New York City in your apartment there because you live in an apartment, probably, right?

I live in an apartment.

Yeah. And you don't really want your door open and your neighbors walking by and looking in your apartment and, you know, being nosy.

Yeah.

Knowing what you have inside.

Yeah. I don't think New York City's his market, but luckily he's in New Zealand.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice line right here on How.

[Justin McLeod]

I Built this Lab. Welcome back to the Advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with hinge founder and CEO Justin McLeod. And let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. Tell us your name, a little bit about your business and. Oh, and where you're calling from.

[Chandler Withington]

Yeah, Guy and Justin, thank you so much for having me on the show. My name is Chandler Withington. I am calling from The Land of 10,000 Lakes in Victoria, Minnesota. I am the founder of Archive22, where I'm a Licensed artist for the United States Golf Association, PGA of America, and the National Hockey League. Through the use of logos, my hand drawn artwork celebrates the history of golf and hockey. I think what makes my artwork unique is, especially in the golf space, I've been able to negotiate and license pieces of artwork which have never been done or even attempted before.

[Justin McLeod]

Got it. Okay, Chandler, thanks for calling in. Welcome to the show. All right, Archive 22. So basically, if I understand correctly, you do hand drawn sort of posters of golf, like the logos of the golf clubs.

[Chandler Withington]

I covered the championships for golf. So we're talking about the US Open, the PGA Championship, and the Ryder Cup. And to answer your question, really the logos of the clubs that have held those tournaments, and then also the names of the champions that have won them. So it's a bit of a history lesson.

[Justin McLeod]

And these are frame posters. I'm looking at your website now. They're frame posters. You also do stuff with the NHL, frame posters of the logos of these clubs and then also frame posters of NHL team logos. And you draw these all by hand?

[Chandler Withington]

We draw them all by hand. This was a project that started for me back in 2018. At the time, I was a golf professional. I've been a golf professional for 20 years. I had a great life. I loved my job. And for 10 years, I was the head golf professional at Hazeltine national here in Minnesota. This was just two years after we had held the Ryder cup, which is a global tournament. And two years after that, we welcomed our third daughter into the world. And following the delivery of that, my wife suffered pulmonary embolism, which is a blood clot in the lungs. Thankfully, we were able to catch it when we did. But that's really. That winter, I stayed close to home. I got the drawing board out again. Growing up, I wanted to be an architect, and I kind of put it away for 20 years. And that winter, I just started drawing things that I wanted to have in my office. And that's where it all began.

[Justin McLeod]

That's amazing. So you draw these yourself, and now you're selling these posters, these frame posters, direct to consumer online. And before we get a bit more into your story, tell us what your question is.

[Chandler Withington]

Yeah, I think we're three years into it. We're doing rather well. But, you know, three years in, I would say we haven't replaced the income that I made as a head golf professional to put that in perspective. But we're a bootstrap company. And three years in, we're getting by largely from our sales, not only just online but at golf championships, I'll be at the US Open next week in Pittsburgh. But I think where we could really use some help is I do really well when I go to a championship, like next week at the US Open, when I get to engage customers and tell our story, I'll sometimes get 30 to 60 seconds or longer to engage with them. But we know how fast society moves, especially online when people are scrolling is how do I really get them to understand who we are in a very short amount of time?

[Justin McLeod]

All right, got it. Okay, let me bring in Justin. Justin, first of all, any questions for Chandler about Archive 22?

Yeah, a couple. One. So you do get to have this face to face interaction when you're at golf tournaments. And I'm curious, is there a, like a hook or a moment or something that you say that people get it, they light up and that makes them want to buy. Like, what is it that you're trying to communicate?

[Chandler Withington]

I think when people first look at it at championships, they'll come up, they'll survey the artwork and they'll kind of get within my blast radius and I'll say, if you give me 10 seconds, I'll give you the quick story. And really what I'm trying to convey to them is one who I am. Thankfully, the Hazeltine logo is on each piece of the artwork. So I get to kind of point the logo. Explain that I was a golf professional for a long time, that I started drawing these for my office. I wanted to have things in my office that when people came in would just get us talking and connecting about mutual interest. And really also the process that it's hand drawn and that it's also the first time that all these clubs have agreed to be on the same piece of paper, which was a process that took well over a year.

[Justin McLeod]

And your typical customer is who?

[Chandler Withington]

Well, we're at the golf championships. It's golf fanatics. It's people that are gonna go play a lot of these, you know, that love the sport.

[Justin McLeod]

It's interesting cause I'm on your website and I'm looking at it and I just notice that the story that you tell just doesn't come. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is that there's kind of zoomed out photos of your posters. And I can't tell they're hand drawn, like from this distance as I look through them, it just looks like posters with little images on them. In your story about you and who you are, people connecting over these posters and creating conversation. The fact that you're the only licensed illustrator that has relationships with all of these clubs. To me, almost none of that comes through when I hit your website. So I just wonder how you can take each of those threads that really catch your customers when you have them in person and bring those to life. Like a much more zoomed in image of the hand drawn a picture of you drawing the and sort of your process for how handcrafted these are and how unique they are.

Yeah, I would double down on that, Chandler. I mean I think that your personal story is certainly compelling and interesting, but I think the reality is when it comes to selling the product, it has to be the fans story that's really what matters. Like what is it about these posters that bring them to that place? Their passion for a club where the US Open or the Ryder cup was held. You know, their passion for golf. This is something that they're gonna put up in. You know, I'm imagining around a pool table in their house or sort of like a man cave, you know, kind of place. Right. Or around the bar where they might be serving drinks. My brother in law has tons of these sports memorabilia posters in his house where he's got a pool table and you know, one really cool thing that he has and one idea I wanted to kind of bring up, which was a lot of what he has are signed by athletes. And I wonder if there's a way for you to sort of think about creating or integrating what you're doing with those signatures, you know, the signatures of golfers. Is there something like that that you might be able to do?

[Chandler Withington]

I think there is. We just haven't gone down that road yet. The gentleman who won the 2024 U.S. open was Bryson DeChambeau. And we learned later that when he went through Pinehurst, this was the one thing that he purchased from the club because his name was on it. So it's hanging in his house. We need to kind of go down that road. To your point, it's what would elevate it and separate it from the rest.

[Justin McLeod]

Yeah, I think he's onto something in terms of especially because it seems like most of your posters are histories of every single tournament. But if you started focusing them more on an individual tournament, especially the tournament that you're at right now selling, you also get the repeat customers of buying a new poster for each tournament. And then also, by the way, if the most recent US Open winner bought your poster, I'd find some way to be able to advertise that and show that as well because that's Going to be obviously a major influencer for the community that you're selling to.

Yeah. The other thing I would say, Chandler, again, this story is about the fans connection to the team. People love the Detroit Red Wings or the Montreal Canadiens or New York Rangers or whoever. I wonder whether you can also. Fairly easily, and I think you could offer things like T shirts, print these on, you know, maybe hats with the logos or I mean, other sort of product lines that people could start to kind of, if they're not yet ready to commit to a poster because it might be a bit more expensive, maybe a hat, maybe apparel. Is that something that you've thought about?

[Chandler Withington]

We have, and I think it's. We're trying to just be successful at one thing at a time. So let's be successful paper. Then let's figure out what apparel looks like. But we've had that conversation about taking some of the designs, especially with the NHL, putting them on the back of T shirts that tell a story. One thing I think we know, the power of logos is that when we see a logo on another person, you know, if I were to see Justin wearing the Colgate logo, for example, I'd say, hey, Justin, my brother in law, Drew Lane, actually went to Colgate. Small chance that you know him. So logos do that and we know that. But when people get to wear them outside of the house, not just being on the walls of your apartment, your studio or wherever you are, that's really how you kind of find your people. And I mean, look, Justin's doing that with Hinge. It's when all the interests are laid out, that's how you get people to find each other.

[Justin McLeod]

Yeah.

Awesome. Well, Chandler, Good luck with Archive 22. Thanks so much for calling in. Congrats on what you've done so far and keep us posted.

[Chandler Withington]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the advice and the help.

[Justin McLeod]

Thanks, Chandler.

I think that, yeah, I mean, golfers are super passionate. Right. And now that he's in hockey, I mean, that's also like people. Obviously it's a massive fan base. But I think that if he can get this on other things besides posters, even though the poster is the sort of the core, the hero product, it could be an interesting way to increase the.

I was almost thinking in the opposite direction because they're hand drawn, they're almost pieces of art. And I'm looking at his price point and these things are like $75. And do these become limited editions? I don't know exactly what his volume is, but knowing that you have print number 273 of 500. And actually it's like a $250 price point or a $300 price point.

That's interesting. Yeah, that could be interesting too. Justin, before I let you go, question I ask everybody who joins me as a guest on the show if you could go back now to when you started out your career and with the perspective you have, what would have been helpful for you to know or what advice might you give yourself?

Well, maybe some meta advice for this show, but I think I would have asked for more advice. I think I was someone who always just thought I could figure these things out and always wanted to figure it out my way from first principles and learned over time that so many people, I had to go through so many failures and learnings to realize now that the gems that I'm just handing to you because you asked me and I think I would have just asked, like gotten a lot more mentors and asked a lot more questions and gotten a lot more curious earlier.

Justin McLeod, thank you so much for joining me this week. It's great having you on.

Thanks for having me.

That's Justin McLeod, founder and CEO of Hinge.

[Guy Raz]

And by the way, if you haven't.

[Justin McLeod]

Heard Justin's original How I Built this episode, you gotta go back and check it out. It's a great episode, awesome story with a great plot twist. So check it out. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

When we did the relaunch, my first instinct was obviously to go raise money. So I was talking to every vc, but no one would give me money. I mean, I was begging. And I had this one investor that I was really holding out for and I remember the partner at the VC firm called me and she was like, you know, we've never seen a company that was cool and then went away and then was able to come back and we just can't do it.

Wow.

And I was like, timberlands.

[Guy Raz]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to.

[Justin McLeod]

The show this week.

[Guy Raz]

And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] or on substack.

[Justin McLeod]

And of course, if you are working.

[Guy Raz]

On a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure.

[Justin McLeod]

To tell us how to reach you.

[Guy Raz]

And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Casey Herman, with music composed by Ramtin Erabloi. It was edited by Andrea Bruce, and our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Katherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, Carla estevez, Sam Paulson, J.C. howard, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery. Com. Survey.