Advice Line with Katlin Smith of Simple Mills

Summary

Podcast Title: How I Built This with Guy Raz
Episode: Advice Line with Caitlin Smith of Simple Mills
Release Date: January 23, 2025
Host: Guy Raz
Guest: Caitlin Smith, Founder and CEO of Simple Mills

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Introduction

In this episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz welcomes back Caitlin Smith, the founder and CEO of Simple Mills. Caitlin shares her journey from humble beginnings in her kitchen to building a successful natural food brand available in over 30,000 stores nationwide. The episode delves into Caitlin's experiences with innovation, leadership, and overcoming the challenges of scaling a business.

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Caitlin Smith's Entrepreneurial Journey

Starting Small:
Caitlin recounts how her passion for healthy eating began in her early 20s while working at a consulting firm. Constant travel led her to consume unhealthy food, prompting her to experiment with grain-free, gluten-free, and paleo-friendly recipes during her free time.

"It did. Yeah, it started in my kitchen and it's come a really long way. Today we are the number one largest natural cracker, cookie and baking mix brand in the Natural channel."
— Caitlin Smith [04:54]

Building the Brand:
From a single muffin recipe, Caitlin expanded Simple Mills into a diverse product lineup, including crackers, thins, waffle mixes, and cookies. Her commitment to using nutrient-dense ingredients and ensuring great taste has been pivotal to the brand's success.

"We really think, first of all, we have to be able to solve a problem for people. So it can't just be something that's nice to have, or it really has to solve a real consumer need."
— Caitlin Smith [07:15]

Securing Funding:
Caitlin discusses the arduous journey of securing funding, highlighting the importance of resilience and creativity. She shares anecdotes about meeting potential investors in unexpected places, emphasizing the need to persist despite setbacks.

"The funding journey is just grueling, and I think today it's probably even harder than it was back when I was founding the company."
— Caitlin Smith [05:38]

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Advice Line: Supporting Fellow Entrepreneurs

The heart of the episode lies in the "Advice Line" segment, where Caitlin and Guy Raz provide guidance to aspiring entrepreneurs facing various challenges.

Caller 1: Scott Vandenbroucke of Upcycle Foods

Background:
Scott founded Upcycle Foods, producing pretzels made from spent grains—a byproduct of the brewing process. His innovative approach aims to promote sustainability by repurposing ingredients that would otherwise go to waste.

Challenges:
Scott struggles with scaling production and finding a reliable manufacturing partner capable of handling his unique pretzel-making process.

Advice Provided:

• Adaptability in Production: Caitlin suggests modifying the product to fit existing manufacturing equipment, thereby broadening the pool of potential partners.

  "Maybe the pretzel is the fourth or fifth product, but the first product is something that is just a little bit easier to get off the ground."
  — Caitlin Smith [15:27]

• Strategic Networking: Emphasizing the importance of building relationships within the industry, Caitlin encourages Scott to align his product development with manufacturers' existing capabilities.

• Persistence: Scott echoes the value of resilience, sharing how overcoming initial setbacks led him to more suitable manufacturing partnerships.

  "If I were you personally, I would think about, okay, how do we best fit this into the production equipment that these contract manufacturers are already going to have."
  — Scott Vandenbroucke [13:54]

Caller 2: Marissa Gurdian of Grumpy Dad Sauce Company

Background:
Marissa started Grumpy Dad Sauce Company after an accidental surplus of extremely hot peppers. Her mission is to create hot sauces tailored for those who believe they "don't like hot sauce," with products named humorously to reflect family dynamics.

Challenges:
Marissa seeks advice on whether to fully commit to her business or maintain a part-time job to ensure financial stability.

Advice Provided:

• Focus and Commitment: Caitlin advises Marissa to prioritize her business as her primary focus, suggesting that scaling requires dedicating sufficient time and resources.

  "If you can look at this and say, all right, for five years, this thing is not going to pay my bills, but I want to pursue this, and I really think there's potential here, then you kind of reverse engineer it and figure out what you need to do."
  — Caitlin Smith [35:04]

• Leveraging Family: Encouraging Marissa to involve her son in the business, Caitlin recommends utilizing his skills in marketing and social media to enhance brand presence.

  "Sic them on that. Say, figure this out, make it easy to order it online, clean up the website, make it a little nicer. Just start there."
  — Caitlin Smith [34:05]

• Strategic Scaling: Scott underscores the importance of making the business the top priority, sharing his own experience of prioritizing his company over a demanding job to accelerate growth.

  "This is my number one, it supersedes all else. And so where there is a conflict between this and that, Simple Mills wins."
  — Scott Vandenbroucke [31:39]

Caller 3: Marissa Gurdian of Sweet Paws

Background:
Marissa launched Sweet Paws, a pet products company focused on innovative and stylish silicone essentials for pets. Her flagship product, the Better Bag opener, addresses the common frustration of opening dog waste bags.

Challenges:
Marissa seeks advice on selecting the most effective marketing platform within a limited budget of $5,000 to $8,000 to maximize outreach for her new product.

Advice Provided:

• Targeted Advertising: Caitlin recommends focusing marketing efforts on platforms where the target audience is most active, such as pet-focused podcasts or niche social media channels.

  "There have to be podcasts that have, you know, 10 to 50,000 listeners a week, let's say, that are pet podcasts."
  — Caitlin Smith [48:22]

• Leveraging Existing Partnerships: Scott suggests utilizing platforms like Chewy's in-house marketing tools to reach customers already interested in pet products.

  "Things we thought about when we had a very tiny marketing budget was really spending those dollars as close to the person who's going to buy it as possible."
  — Scott Vandenbroucke [46:13]

• Influencer Marketing and Community Engagement: Emphasizing the power of influencer endorsements, Caitlin advises collaborating with popular pet influencers to authentically promote the product.

  "There are so many things that you could do with that on social media. And from a branding perspective, it's such a brilliant base to build on."
  — Scott Vandenbroucke [35:50]

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Caitlin reflecting on her entrepreneurial journey and offering parting advice to aspiring business owners. She emphasizes the importance of continuous learning, resilience, and strategic prioritization in building a successful brand.

"One of the greatest parts being an entrepreneur and building a growing business is that you get to learn so much. And so to lean into that, not feel like you have to have all the answers. I think in the early days, I felt like I needed to know the answer to everything. And the fact is you don't."
— Caitlin Smith [53:39]

Additionally, Caitlin announces a significant milestone for Simple Mills—the acquisition by Flowers Foods for nearly $800 million, marking a major achievement in her entrepreneurial journey.

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Notable Moments

• Scaling Challenges: Caitlin discusses the complexities of transitioning from kitchen production to large-scale manufacturing, highlighting the necessity of adapting products to fit existing equipment.

• Family Involvement: Emphasizing the role of family, Caitlin advises entrepreneurs to integrate family members into their business strategies to enhance brand authenticity and operational efficiency.

• Strategic Marketing: The conversation underscores the importance of targeted marketing, especially for startups with limited budgets, advocating for platforms that directly reach the intended audience.

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This episode serves as a masterclass in navigating the multifaceted challenges of entrepreneurship, from product development and funding to scaling operations and strategic marketing. Caitlin Smith's insights, coupled with practical advice for fellow entrepreneurs, provide invaluable lessons for anyone looking to build and sustain a successful business.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

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[Caitlin Smith]

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[Caitlin Smith]

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[Caitlin Smith]

Hello and welcome to the.

[Guy Raz]

Advice line on how I built this Lab.

[Caitlin Smith]

I'm Guy Raz.

[Guy Raz]

This is the place where we help.

[Caitlin Smith]

Try to solve your business challenges and each week week I'm joined by a.

[Guy Raz]

Legendary founder of former guests on the.

[Caitlin Smith]

Show who will help me try to help you.

[Guy Raz]

And so if you are building something and you need advice, go ahead and.

[Caitlin Smith]

Give us a call and you might.

[Guy Raz]

Just be the next guest on the show.

[Caitlin Smith]

Our number is 1-800-433-1298.

[Guy Raz]

Send us a 1 minute message with.

[Caitlin Smith]

Your name, a bit about your business.

[Guy Raz]

And the issues or questions that you'd like help with. Or you can send us a voice.

[Caitlin Smith]

[e-mail] and make sure to tell us.

[Guy Raz]

How to reach you.

[Caitlin Smith]

Also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's filled with insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] or on substack and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's go.

[Guy Raz]

Joining me this week is Caitlin Smith, founder and CEO of the natural food company Simple Mills.

[Caitlin Smith]

Caitlin, welcome back to the show.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

[Caitlin Smith]

Excited to have you back. So you were on the show back in 2021 telling us the story of of course, Simple Mills, which really began when you were, I think in your early 20s. You were working at the time for a big consulting firm. You're on the road a lot. You were eating bad food, you weren't eating well. And so you kind of started to experiment in your free time making like grain free, gluten free, paleo friendly recipes and eventually kind of honing in on a muffin mix. And I think originally you imagined and I think you kind of got there building sort of the next Betty Crocker kind of brand.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean my, my goal really was and still is to change our food industry to really positively impact people's health and also the planet health as well by making these products that have what we call astounding ingredients and putting them into these familiar forms that consumers love and that taste great.

[Caitlin Smith]

It's such a great story. We're going to put a link to it in the podcast notes and you should definitely go back and check out that episode. Fast forward to today. Caitlin, your single muffin recipe evolved into a whole line of natural food products that is sold. I mean, every time I go to the grocery store just seems like there's a wall of Simple Mills products on the shelves. I think they're in more almost 30,000.

[Guy Raz]

Stores across the country, which is amazing.

[Caitlin Smith]

And it started in like your kitchen and you know, when you were just experimenting.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

It did. Yeah, it started in my kitchen and it's come a really long way. Today we are the number one largest natural cracker, cookie and baking mix brand in the Natural channel. So it's the thing that dreams are made of.

[Caitlin Smith]

It's amazing. You know, we've talked to lots of food founders, right.

[Guy Raz]

And almost all of them, including you.

[Caitlin Smith]

Struggled at some point to fund the production. Right. Especially when you're first kind of getting things off the ground. I remember you almost had to sell, like, a lot of equity in the company for that reason. So from your perspective, when founders are thinking about, like, finances, how to finance.

[Guy Raz]

Especially early on.

[Caitlin Smith]

What should they be thinking about?

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Oh, my goodness. The funding journey is just grueling, and I think today it's probably even harder than it was back when I was founding the company. I definitely had to do some very creative things on my own side to fund the business. So selling my car and maxing out credit cards and crazy things like that. But then I think when you go out to look for investors, it's really talking to anyone and everyone. I mean, I just talked to so many people that at one point, one woman who was interested in investing in us was in a whole food store. And a guy next to her turned to her and said, what do you think of this brand? And she said, well, I'm thinking of investing in it. Well, that guy turned out to be our weed investor. So I had talked to so many people that two of them happen to be in the same whole food store in Charlotte, North Carolina, at the same time talking to each other. So I think resilience is probably one of the largest things you gotta have to get funded.

[Caitlin Smith]

You've got a whole suite of products now, right? Muffins, crackers, thins, waffle mixes, tons of things. Right. And cookies. And I'm sure there's a lot more sort of in the pipeline. How do you guys identify and then prioritize what products to bring to market? Like, what do you sort of measure and when do you know that the thing that you're introducing doesn't work? You know, because there must be things that you introduce. It just, you know, you kind of phase out after time.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Yeah. I mean, innovation, part of innovating, part of being an entrepreneur, all of it is failure is part of the game too. And knowing when to move forward with something or when to not do something is also super important. I mean, I think for us, we really think, first of all, we have to be able to solve a problem for people. So it can't just be something that's nice to have, or it really has to solve a real consumer need. And then the second thing that we think about is, can we do this with our ingredient tenants? More nutrient dense ingredients. And then the third thing is, look, it has to taste great. This is a food product and no one's going to eat it if it doesn't taste great. And so that a lot of times is one of the bars, that's toughest to hit. So we really consumer test these products and understand is this measuring up to conventional standards and making sure that consumers will love it when it hits the shelf.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome.

[Caitlin Smith]

Well, I suspect a lot of our callers are going to have a lot of questions for you today about how.

[Guy Raz]

You did it and the decisions you made.

[Caitlin Smith]

Why don't we take our first call and find out what is on their mind? Hello, welcome to the advice line on how I built this. You're on with Caitlin Smith and me.

[Guy Raz]

Please tell us your name, where you're.

[Caitlin Smith]

Calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Tim Toews]

Hi, Caitlin. Hi, Guy. Hi, my name is Scott Vandenbroucke, and I'm calling from snowy Minneapolis.

[Caitlin Smith]

Welcome.

[Tim Toews]

Thank you. I started a company called Upcycle Foods, and our first product was a soft pretzel made with pure maple syrup and butter, but it was also made with the beer grains that were sourced from the brewing process.

[Caitlin Smith]

Wow.

[Guy Raz]

So these are.

[Caitlin Smith]

Okay, so just to. Just to clarify, these are pretzels made.

[Guy Raz]

From grains that are used to brew.

[Caitlin Smith]

Beer that would otherwise be thrown away, basically.

[Tim Toews]

Correct. Correct.

[Caitlin Smith]

So that's why it's called Upcycle Food, because you're upcycling something that was used.

[Guy Raz]

For one thing and then you're turning.

[Caitlin Smith]

It into another thing.

[Tim Toews]

Yes. And so we decided to focus on beer grains due to the excess amount of local breweries using these in the brewing process. So. Yeah.

[Caitlin Smith]

And were these hard pretzels or soft pretzels?

[Tim Toews]

So these were soft pretzels. And then we also had, you know, a pretzel stick. Pretzel buns were a large seller. And then our large £1 pretzel.

[Guy Raz]

So you keep saying, were, were.

[Caitlin Smith]

Is this something that you're not doing right now?

[Tim Toews]

Yeah, we're kind of on ice right now. After we got out of the pandemic, we worked in a kitchen, a rental kitchen, lease kitchen, for over a year. So I was, you know, doing the sales. I was doing the full production. So I've rolled out thousands of pretzels.

[Caitlin Smith]

You're the pretzel man. You're the pretzel baker.

[Tim Toews]

So that was the main focus. But what ended up happening was I moved into a co manufacturer space and I would go in there from, you know, when I ended my actual job to probably 10pm at night perfecting the recipe. And we did get it down. It just got to a scale where they could not maintain.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah.

[Tim Toews]

And if you've ever made a pretzel, the lye process, the application.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right. To get It. That brown color.

[Tim Toews]

Yeah. And get that Maillard reaction to get that really nice flavor, that caramelization.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah.

[Tim Toews]

And that was kind of my Achilles heel. So.

[Guy Raz]

So you stop producing them.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right. For a while. And just before we get to what you. What you're thinking about now, what other.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, presumably you can do a.

[Caitlin Smith]

Lot with upcycled grains now. I mean, there are brands out there.

[Guy Raz]

That are making granola bars and other things.

[Caitlin Smith]

So you focused on pretzels, but that didn't work out, so why not pivot to another food product?

[Tim Toews]

No, correct. I did. You know, we come from the land of 10,000 food production facilities in Minnesota, but.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah. Home of General Mills.

[Tim Toews]

Yep, home of General Mills. You know, Pillsbury, everything.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right.

[Tim Toews]

But I think, yeah, I looked at doing pasta, so I did carbonara in a jar with spent grain pasta. We experimented with, like, muffin mix. So I know Caitlin is definitely keen to that. So we did sell those at farmers markets. But again, it was kind of taking that leap into scalability that ended up keeping us shutting us down for a little bit.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right. So. Right. All right, we're going to get to. I've got more questions, but let's get.

[Guy Raz]

To your question first and see if.

[Caitlin Smith]

We can start to tackle that. What. What's your question for us today?

[Tim Toews]

So I guess my question is, you know, with a unique upcycle ingredient like spent grain, how would you go about finding a solid manufacturing partner, especially with a difficult process of making pretzels?

[Caitlin Smith]

All right, Kaitlyn, I want to bring you in here. I'm sure you've got a lot of thoughts on what he's trying to do here.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Oh, my gosh. So many thoughts and just so much respect for you because that's not an easy thing to do. So how similar is your production process to how pretzels are usually manufactured?

[Tim Toews]

It's not very similar. So the bakery I used was probably a little bit smaller at capacity, so they didn't have the machinery that actually was scalable. But we did find a process of proofing, freezing, and applying lye that actually worked. So to your point, it's not very similar to the big guys. You know, reaching out to those manufacturers. It was difficult at times to get them or persuade them to, you know, take on a very unique ingredient and put it into their production.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. That's a. It's a tricky one. I mean, I think. Look, like I. It was really difficult for me, too, to find our first contract manufacturer. It feels like I turned over, I think the whole market I was on, you know, the 10th and 11th page of Google, which I don't think I've been on since, trying to find contract manufacturers and researching every lead. And it took a ton of resilience and continuing to dig. And I'll tell you, even when I did find someone, there were a number of compromises involved too. And I'll say, fortunately, as volumes have scaled and all of that, I found stronger partners to work with. But, I mean, I think if I were you personally, I would think about, okay, how do we best fit this into the production equipment that these contract manufacturers are already going to have? And so is there a way that you can change the, for example, dry the ingredients or I don't know exactly what form the ingredients come in, but really fit them into a form that's going to work in their system? Because then you'll have a much broader group to work with.

[Caitlin Smith]

Scott, a couple questions for you. I mean, why would somebody, right, like, if I meet you and you're like, hey, I'm selling these upcycled pretzels. Get your pretzels. Why would I buy your pretzel versus one that was made with, you know, let's call it virgin flour that was, you know, also coming out of the oven? What's the, what's your pitch here?

[Tim Toews]

So, I mean, sustainability is the pitch. We want to take upcycle ingredients and move them into a loop system to rescue them. And the flavor with spent grain, it also is unique to that beer, but it's lower in sugar. So there's another plus for dietary needs.

[Guy Raz]

I guess my question for you is.

[Caitlin Smith]

You know, you're focused on the pretzel.

[Guy Raz]

And you're looking for a co manufacturer.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right, to do the pretzel. But I wonder, Caitlin, I'd love to get your perspective on this. Is there a world where, you know, maybe the pretzel is the.

[Guy Raz]

Is the issue, not the upcycled side of it?

[Caitlin Smith]

Because I know, Caitlin, you guys are doing some upcycled work as well. Work with upcycled grains. Is there a world where Scott maybe want to consider a different product? I mean, I just want to throw it out there. I don't want to, I don't want to ran your parade here, Scott, but I just want to test this here.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

I mean, I think personally, I really love the idea of an upcycled pretzel, particularly one made with beer grains, because there's something about beer and pretzels that goes together. And one of the things that we think about, for example, when we develop innovation Is do consumers naturally go there? And so does that sound delicious? And I'm just like, oh, yeah, it's gonna pair so well with beer. I could almost even picture a beer tasting where you've got several different types of beer and several different types of your pretzel, and it just all works really well together. But then again, there's probably also other things that are in that avenue too, where, I mean, cracker is obviously near and dear to my heart, but. But. But I go down that same path.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah. I mean, look, I love. I love a good pretzel just like the next person does, but I'm just wondering whether that is scalable, like, easily. Like, I think. I mean. Cause there's a lot of things that.

[Guy Raz]

You could do with spent grain, right?

[Caitlin Smith]

Like, we've had conversations in the past about this in various ways on the show. And I remember somebody. I don't know if it was on our show or somewhere else, somebody talking about dog treats from spent grain. And I don't know. I mean, I know I'm throwing this whole conversation for a loop here, but.

[Guy Raz]

Is there a world where you experiment.

[Caitlin Smith]

With different other things that might. I don't know, that might go to a farmer's market and you're selling dog treats? I mean, people might be a bit more willing to try something like that out.

[Tim Toews]

No, that's a. It's a great point. We did an amazing devil's cake mix that just was. With. It just was so dark and succulent when it baked up, like, similar to a muffin mix. I think the one thing with the spent grain is, you know, you can't use the full amount into the product. You do need to just cut it with regular flour because the structure kind of gets lost. But I think the shelf stable products would probably be a little easier to produce. And they. They were. But, yeah, I think there's a substantial hill to climb when it comes to spent grain with the amount on the table.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

And I think. I think one of the things that's interesting about what you're suggesting, guy, is this whole leaning into what's easily possible. And so try not to build too large of a hill for yourself to climb. One of the things that we talk about with innovation is really how do we lean into nature, lean into what nature wants to do. And maybe the frame is a little bit different here, but it's like, how do you lean into what naturally contract manufacturers want to do? And so what products naturally come out of that? So you're not trying to get them to do something that's too weird or too hard for their model.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, maybe the pretzel happens in the future. Maybe the pretzel is the fourth or.

[Caitlin Smith]

Fifth product, but the first product is something that is just a little bit easier to get off the ground.

[Tim Toews]

And, Caitlin, I was wondering about that. I mean, when you first started, I'm assuming you've used multiple co manufacturers throughout your business, but how did you persuade them in the beginning with, I mean, I know almond flour was new on trend, and how did you get them to sign on with you?

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Well, and I think it's, interestingly, not very far from what we're suggesting here, which is that I started in baking mixes. Finding a manufacturer who's willing to blend together flours is a lot easier than finding a manufacturer who's willing to make a cracker out of an alternative ingredient. And so it's kind of starting at a place that's a little bit easier and then moving to that difficult place for sure.

[Caitlin Smith]

The brand is called Upcycle Foods. Scott Vandenbrucke, thanks for calling, man. Congrats. Good luck.

[Tim Toews]

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Good luck.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, the idea here is that you might have a really great idea and something that could work, but it may not be the first thing that you should pursue out the gate. Right. Like, you started with baking mixes and then.

[Guy Raz]

Which was easier than going into cookies.

[Caitlin Smith]

And crackers, which you now sell and, you know, other things, Right?

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Yeah. So much easier. I mean, it's so much more difficult to create a cracker or a cookie or a snack bar than it is to create a baking mix which is really just dry flours blended together. I mean, I think you pretty much nailed it. Take the latter approach. Don't go there immediately.

[Caitlin Smith]

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller.

[Guy Raz]

Another question, and another round of advice.

[Caitlin Smith]

I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your.

[Guy Raz]

Questions right here on the advice line.

[Caitlin Smith]

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[Caitlin Smith]

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[Caitlin Smith]

Welcome back to the Advice line on How I built this Lab.

[Guy Raz]

I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking calls with Caitlin Smith.

[Caitlin Smith]

So Caitlin, what do you say? Should we bring in our next caller?

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Let's bring him in.

[Caitlin Smith]

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice Line.

[Guy Raz]

You are on with Kaitlin Smith of Simple Mills.

[Caitlin Smith]

Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

[Marissa Gurdian]

My name is Tim Toews. I am the owner and operator of Grumpy Dad Sauce company from Winchester, Kentucky. Just outside of Lexington are where we make hot sauce for people who don't think they like hot sauce and our Products are purposely prepared for a place on every table.

[Guy Raz]

Wow, Tim.

[Caitlin Smith]

Welcome to the show. Grumpy dad Sauce, Lexington, Kentucky. I love it. Tell me a little bit about how you got into the hot sauce business.

[Marissa Gurdian]

It was mostly on accident. Back in 2018, I was working as a training manager for a pharmaceutical plant. And as a break from, you know, just kind of taking man off work, I bought some couple of different strains of the hottest peppers in the world, threw them out in the yard, you know, kind of forgot about them. Ended up losing that job and had to do a couple things in between to make ends meet. And then I went out in the backyard in the middle of the summer, and the plants were, like, up to my waist full of peppers.

[Caitlin Smith]

What kind of peppers?

[Marissa Gurdian]

Carolina reaper ghost pepper and scorpion pepper. Yes.

[Caitlin Smith]

You're kind of an insane dude here. Yeah, these are some serious peppers.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yeah, I had no intention of eating them at all. Didn't know what to do with them. And I've always had something where I've wanted to do something else kind of, because several different spots along, I've lost jobs and other things. So what if I did something where I knew the target? I wanted to build this, and I would build something for me and my family that I can pass on. So I googled how to make hot sauce and started trialing out sauces with those peppers. So at the end of that summer, I found a different job at a hemp processor that had just got started in town. Everybody at work liked them, but they were too hot. And so I'd scaled back down, scaled down, scaled down, scaled down, reached out to the state as far as how to be fully FDA regulated.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Marissa Gurdian]

So between 2018 and 2020, I took all the classes, got certified, and we launched our first commercial batch in January 21st.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing.

[Caitlin Smith]

Okay, so, so you would. You basically googled it, like, how do you make hot sauce? And so I'm assuming it's like, put the peppers and vinegar and, you know, grind it down, and then, you know, you strain it, and eventually you get something like hot sauce.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yep, pretty much. It's just blend, cook, and do it the way the FDA says to.

[Caitlin Smith]

Wow. And how.

[Guy Raz]

And.

[Caitlin Smith]

And so where are you selling them now?

[Marissa Gurdian]

We are in the farmer's market, and they're in Winchester every weekend. We are in five small mom and pop shops in Lexington and a few other places like that. I'm. I have wholesale requests for. There's a lot of those little farms where, you know, everybody goes to get their pumpkin. Those kind of places all around the area. And so I'm moving from five to hopefully 20 shops in the next year, plus direct to consumer sales over the Internet. My first year, 2021, I sold every last bottle I made online, just through marketing over a couple of different Facebook hot sauce fan groups, and sold to 38 states and just kind of went from there.

[Guy Raz]

Nice.

[Caitlin Smith]

So are you doing, like, about what, five. Over $5,000 a year so far in sales?

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yes. This year we're right at 5,000, going to about 6. If I hit all those targets with all those different stores that want my stuff, I should be selling about 25,000 next year. Not quite enough to pay all the bills, but headed in the right direction.

[Caitlin Smith]

All right, Tim. It's called Grumpy Dad Sauce Company. I'm assuming your dad. I'm assuming you're grumpy.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Not exactly. Like I say, when the people ask me about it at this fairs, it's like, not when I'm making hot sauce. So I find that most dads are grumpy because they are doing something to help make ends meet, keep the family going, paying the bills and all that that they probably didn't want to do when they were a kid growing up. Accountant, whatever it is, just to pay the bills, the stress of life, all that stuff kind of gets to them. And what I'm trying to do is be kind of an inspiration to other dads and my kids to where you don't have to just do something just to make ends meet. You can do something you want to do, Build a business, build something that you can pass on to your family. Start scaling up from there. So, you know, everyone knows a Grumpy dad. And all my sauces are all themed that way. My mild sauce is Moody Teenager. I got a sauce called Envy Mood Swing. My hottest one is called Tantrum, stuff like that. So I'm trying to trade in on that. On that vibe of, you know, family, the family dynamic.

[Caitlin Smith]

And you've got kids.

[Marissa Gurdian]

I have two kids. Yes. My. I have a son and a daughter. They're teenagers. We adopted them from our. From the state foster care system when they were 2 and 3. My son is really interested in helping, and he went. Next year is one of our two flavors we're going to introduce is one that he's developing, a barbecue sauce.

[Guy Raz]

Nice.

[Caitlin Smith]

Okay, cool. And what's your question for us today?

[Marissa Gurdian]

My question basically is. And I kind of have two different ones. I had one before we got on, but in the last week, the last couple of weeks, I've lost another job So I have financing lined up, and I have enough to scale up to get the co packer involved for next year to meet all those demands. But my question really is, should I just go crazy and just go all in with it? I know I'm about 20, 30% of where I need to be to meet my family's needs. Should I just scale back on the job expectations and just double down on the other side of things and get more people involved, ask for more angel investors, that kind of thing? Or how crazy should I go with this? How much further should I go?

[Caitlin Smith]

Got it. Okay. And sorry to hear about the job.

[Guy Raz]

Situation, but I think this is interesting.

[Caitlin Smith]

I mean, it sounds like a big part of the motivation around this. Not only because you like peppers and hot sauce, but you want to build your own thing. You don't want to be dependent on an employer who can just downsize and lay people off.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yep.

[Caitlin Smith]

Okay, Caitlin, let me bring you in. You've been waiting patiently, Caitlin. All right. Grumpy dad Hot sauce.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Amazing. I love those names, by the way. Those are just brilliant for hot sauces. So I can just see all these different ways the branding could go and could be really cool. But, you know, question for you. What. What keeps you from going all in? What's. What's standing in your way?

[Marissa Gurdian]

Who's paying the bills? You know?

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah.

[Marissa Gurdian]

What if. What if that loan doesn't come through? What if I talked to a co packer a couple of years ago and it was 100 case minimum, $25,000 for the loan, and I couldn't swing it, but I found one that's going to scale with me. So I'm at place where I think I could do it if I planned it out correctly, if I had, you know, scalable goals. You know, by this quarter, I need to be in these many stores and, you know, incremental increases. But there's part of me that just wants to just be, like, drop a grenade and just toss it out there and just go and do Uber and doordash to make the ends meet and then do everything else to get the hot sauce out there. So that's where I'm kind of at.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Do you have a sense for what you would need in order for the business to be a little bit more stable financially for you?

[Marissa Gurdian]

I know where my bills are. I know my budget. I know, you know, car payment, house payment, all that stuff. I know what it would take to fund my family's needs.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

So is it like a certain number of retailers or more total volume of.

[Marissa Gurdian]

You know, total dollar volume of bottles out the door, either in a combination of wholesale or retail. Which is why I'm trying to loop in the co packer and get him going on it. I've taught him the recipes, he's ready to roll. And we should have that scaled up here before too long.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

I think that'll be game changing for you. You know, back in the very early days of the business, I toggled both a pretty demanding job and also trying to run the business. And to be honest, while I was working full time, it crept along at a really slow pace, both because I was doing the manufacturing and also because I was distracted. And I think that there was a point in time where I just made the commitment that, okay, this is my number one, it supersedes all else. And so where there is a conflict between this and that, simple Mills wins.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah, I agree with you on this one, Caitlin. I mean, I think, look, I think you can do a version of both, Tim. Right. You can go all in. And you can also figure out the most flexible way for you to earn some money, whether that's Uber or doordash, or maybe getting a job, a part time job with some flexibility. Because really what you want to be.

[Guy Raz]

Doing is you want to be focused on getting this in the hands of.

[Caitlin Smith]

People beyond Lexington, right, beyond Winchester, Kentucky. And I think that you really need to focus on just getting people exposed to the brand. I mean, you, you know, even taking a risk of just sending a bottle, a couple bottles, or at least calling some of these places and saying, can.

[Guy Raz]

You take some of this on consignment?

[Caitlin Smith]

You know, would you be willing to put this on your shelves? And I think a lot of them, if you will take your call, you call them up and they'd be willing to put, put your bottle on the shelf.

[Marissa Gurdian]

I've got a few of them that are lined up. And it's one of those things where I'm either making stuff for the, for the Saturday market or making it by the case for these. And so the juggling of who am I, who am I going to serve this week? Is what, is what's been messing with me. I've, you know, we're moving in that direction. It's just, how do I juggle that for. Until the co packer is fully up.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

And going, yeah, that's one of the things I did. I devoted my Wednesdays to just calling up these places and just being like, okay, hi, I've got this product. Will you take it? I'm going to send You a sample and then the next week follow up with them. Hi, did you receive the sample? Can I get the item on the shelf and just kind of blow it out into as many places as you can, as fast as you can. But to your point, you gotta have the product and so co man will be an unlock on that.

[Caitlin Smith]

Tim, how old is your son or daughter?

[Marissa Gurdian]

My daughter's 16, he's 15. He'll be 16 in March.

[Caitlin Smith]

I got a job for your son and or daughter. Why don't you sic them on the website? I'm looking at your website.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yeah.

[Caitlin Smith]

Needs some work.

[Marissa Gurdian]

It does.

[Guy Raz]

You cannot order the sauce on there.

[Caitlin Smith]

There's off the shelf, very inexpensive software whether it's, you know, Shopify, Squarespace, Square. I mean there are all these different companies out there, WordPress that make it really easy and your 15 or 16 year old is going to figure out faster than you will. Yeah, I'm just being honest with you. Sic them on that. Say, figure this out, make it easy to order it online, clean up the website, make it a little nicer. Just start there.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yeah, he wants to, he, he's. We've done a lot of work with like recipes, my sauce with somebody else's products, you know, the meats and stuff from our farmer's market and he's helping with, shoot the recipe videos and stuff like that. So he actually set this mic up for my for the broadcast today too. So I'm going to let him, let.

[Caitlin Smith]

Him run with it and maybe consider being the grumpy dad making videos, having them put on TikTok. I'm serious. I mean these guys, 15, 16, they know what, they know how to do this stuff. And you could be sit, you know, you could be the grumpy dad in these videos.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Works for me.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Oh my gosh. And what a great learning experience for him too.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yeah, I want him to be as involved as he can.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah. I mean the question that you ask.

[Guy Raz]

Right is should I go all in.

[Caitlin Smith]

Or keep doing it the way I've been doing it? And I think the question I don't think is should you go all in or not?

[Guy Raz]

You should go all in.

[Caitlin Smith]

I mean you're passionate about this, people.

[Guy Raz]

Are responding to it. You clearly love the process of making this.

[Caitlin Smith]

You got certified, you've got a brand here. So I don't think the question should you go all in?

[Guy Raz]

I mean you are kind of all in.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right. The question is how do you sustain a business that look, let's be realistic here, is probably not going to pay all your bills, let's say for at.

[Guy Raz]

Least two years, maybe three, maybe five.

[Caitlin Smith]

So if you can look at this and say, all right, for five years, this thing is not going to pay my bills, but I want to pursue this, and I really think there's potential here, then you kind of reverse engineer it and figure out what you need to do.

[Guy Raz]

The minimum you need to pay the.

[Caitlin Smith]

Bills, but also to really lean in and focus on this thing.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Yep, that's true.

[Caitlin Smith]

Tim Toews of Grumpy dad Sauce company. Thanks so much. Good luck.

[Marissa Gurdian]

Thank you for having me.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Good luck.

[Caitlin Smith]

Thanks, Ben. I mean, right, you get the Grumpy dad on the sofa.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Oh, my goodness. There are so many things that you could do with that on social media. And from a branding perspective, it's such a brilliant base to build on.

[Caitlin Smith]

I mean, you know, that's something I'd watch. I'd watch a Grumpy dad, I don't know, sucking down a bottle of hot sauce. I don't know. Something, something.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Yeah, there's something there.

[Caitlin Smith]

All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab.

[Guy Raz]

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[Caitlin Smith]

You know, every year I think to.

[Guy Raz]

Myself about the new goals I'm going to set for myself. But did you know that only 8% of us will stick with the resolutions we make? Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a simple tool that makes it easy to lock in years and years of healthy money habits in just five minutes. Head to acorns.com built or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future. Today, paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 5 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] built.

[Caitlin Smith]

Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.

[Guy Raz]

I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Kaitlin Smith.

[Caitlin Smith]

She's the founder of the natural food company Simple Mills.

[Guy Raz]

Kaitlyn, what do you say?

[Caitlin Smith]

Should we take another call?

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Let's do it.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome to the advice line.

[Caitlin Smith]

You are on with Caitlin Smith of Simple Mills. Please introduce yourself, tell us your name.

[Guy Raz]

Where you're calling from, and a little.

[Caitlin Smith]

Bit about your business.

[G]

Hi, Caitlin. Hey, Guy. I'm Marissa Gurdian from Chappaqua, New York, and my business is Sweet Paws. We are innovating in the pet space with problem solving fashion forward silicone pet essentials. Our mission is to amplify the joy of pet care and smooth friction in the daily routine so that pet families can enjoy more quality time together.

[Caitlin Smith]

Got it. Okay. Sweet pause. Welcome to the show, Marissa. Thank you for calling in Silicone.

[Guy Raz]

So what.

[Caitlin Smith]

What kind of things are they? Like chew toys.

[G]

So we make everything from chew toys to bath gloves, portable paw towels. We have a couple things that are just launching, including a bag charm to hold the used bag on the leash. So it's kind of an embarrassment free solution to walking down the street. Frees up your hands to do other things. And also our new bag opener that opens the bag on the very first try.

[Caitlin Smith]

You're talking about the poop bags.

[G]

That's right.

[Caitlin Smith]

I got you. Okay, so you got. You got the container for the poop bags, which I know very well because I take my dog for.

[Guy Raz]

Not just me, my wife.

[Caitlin Smith]

I take our dog for a walk at least once a day. So I'm very familiar with the poop bags.

[Guy Raz]

What was the thing you said that.

[Caitlin Smith]

The bag opener.

[G]

So that's our newest product and the one we're most proud of. We just launched it on Chewy. It is our better bag bag opener, and it's a better way to open plastic bags. So have you ever struggled to open a dog waste bag?

[Caitlin Smith]

All the time. It's a pain in the butt. You're trying to open it up. I'm like ripping it. I'm blowing into. Yeah, you know, I've got oily fingertips or something like I've. You can't open it.

[G]

Exactly. I honestly love walking my dog, but I hated opening the bag and it would ruin an otherwise good thing. I would be on my neighbor's lawn, they'd be pulling out of their driveway. I'd be giving them the wave of shame as I Just struggled to open that dog waste bag, and it could take 20 minutes. You know, I wasn't going to lick my fingers. So this is a solution that attaches to the leash and it opens the dog waste bag instantly.

[Caitlin Smith]

You just insert your fingers, you put your fingers. It's like a ring.

[G]

I'll show you. And I know I'll try to describe it for anyone listening, but it's a lightweight silicone device that hangs from the leash or your keys or your bag. You put the two finger grips over the end of the bag, and with one simple twist, it opens the bag instantly.

[Caitlin Smith]

You've got the silicone finger grips.

[G]

And then we call it better bag B T, R, B, A G. Because it's a better way to open plastic bags. It does it on the very first try. No more licking fingers, no more frustration.

[Guy Raz]

You can use this in the grocery store.

[Caitlin Smith]

Those are the worst. I can never open those bags in the grocery store.

[G]

So that actually leads me to my question, because this product, we feel, has an application well beyond pet. So even though we launched it with a pet company, we started a separate website to show all the other applications, which are not only grocery, but also household trash bags, office bags, any bags. We even have a customer who used it to separate her coffee filters because she had such a hard time taking those apart.

[Caitlin Smith]

Total pain.

[G]

And it really does work on the very first try.

[Caitlin Smith]

All right, before we get to your question, just a couple questions for you. Tell me about the business. When did you start it and how did it start?

[G]

So I started the company back in 2020. We got one of the very first pandemic puppies back in March 2020, and she was a pure delight. We loved her to pieces. Her name is Sobe Mini Labradoodle. But she was very nippy. And so I developed a wearable puppy teether that could be worn as a bracelet so that you always had a chew toy handy. If the dog was nippy, and then you.

[Caitlin Smith]

The human would wear it, the dog wouldn't wear it. It wasn't wearable for the dog. The human wears it, the human wears it, and then the dog chews on the tongue on the silicone.

[G]

Exactly. If the dog comes up and is nipping on your wrist, you remove it from your wrist and redirect the dog when they're ready to play. And that way it keeps them from biting you and gives them something else to chew on. Usually they'll just take it. You'd either tug with them, play fetch, or they'll go off in a Corner and chew on this, which is a non toxic human grade material safe enough for human babies. So we pitched it to Chewy. They had nothing like it. And all of a sudden we were off to the races. We developed a bigger version, our Chunky Teether for people with bigger wrists or bigger dogs. And it went into our paw towels and our spa gloves and really we just can't make enough products. We have so many ideas.

[Caitlin Smith]

So you're making a bunch of things.

[Guy Raz]

Now, selling them on Chewy and give.

[Caitlin Smith]

Us a sense of your revenue right now.

[G]

Okay, so we're selling on Chewy, Amazon, Petco and we're launching with a container store in QVC.

[Caitlin Smith]

Nice.

[G]

Revenue this year is approaching $200,000. I think next year we're going to see a lot more, more growth hopefully.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you.

[Caitlin Smith]

Congrats on that. Okay, and before I forget, what is your question for us today?

[G]

Okay, so we just launched our Better Bag bag opener which I showed you, which is a brand new product that we think is our best product yet. It solves a problem for a lot of people and it has applications beyond pet. It's easily demonstrable on video. However, we do have limited resources for marketing. In the past we've tried to do everything at once and I think that resulted in kind of like a little bit of everything was a lot of nothing. We didn't get results. So this time around we'd like to focus on one platform to get the word out about Better Bag. So our question is if you had to choose just one platform to get the word out about a revolutionary new product, what would it be?

[Caitlin Smith]

Interesting. Okay, Kaylin, I'm going to bring you in here. Lots unpack.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

There is a lot to unpack for sure. So I'm curious. So I'm a dog owner myself, although I don't know the dog owner community as well as probably you do. So where do you find that these dog owners first of all typically shop and also where do they typically show up social media wise or online wise? Where are you considering marketing to them?

[G]

Well, I think we launched this product with Chewy. That's a really good place to be and I don't take that for granted. We feel really lucky about that. We've gotten a good response there. But beyond that, probably Facebook, Instagram, my whole list is basically all correct answers of great places to go TikTok. And that's why it's hard to narrow it down. And I do see this product having reach into grocery for people who have dexterity issues or just the everyday person like me who doesn't like to lick their fingers in public or doesn't want to lick their fingers at all, you know, so those are the people I really want to reach, just to kind of educate them. That this solution exists to a problem a lot of people have.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Makes perfect sense. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things we thought about when we had, well, we still don't have the largest marketing budget, but especially in the early days when we had a very, very tiny marketing budget, was really spending those dollars as close to the person who's going to buy it as possible. So in our case, we were primarily selling in retail stores. So you think like Whole Foods. And so what we really invested in were demos in store. So we would, you know, when you're walking through Whole Foods, you get to try a little bit of muffin, decide if you want to buy it, and then go to checkout. Now contrast that to. Let's just use the other end of the spectrum, which would be like a national ad campaign, like a Super bowl commercial or something like that. You don't want to do that in the early days because it's the percent of people who are seeing that that are actually going to go and buy it, or maybe it's. Or even are going to visit the store that the product's in super low. When I think about your product, I think about, well, how do you get as close to those customers that are already, for example, on the Chewy site looking for products as possible? It's a little bit different because it's primarily online, but I think the premise probably still applies.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a.

[Guy Raz]

Tricky answer to a very good question.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right. Which is, where do you put your. And the obvious answer that I think a lot of people would sort of.

[Guy Raz]

Give you is you pick a social.

[Caitlin Smith]

Media platform that works best for you. By the way, where have you performed the best? What platforms work best for you?

[G]

I would say, honestly, we haven't done a good job of marketing. So when we leave it to our partners, our retail partners, they're very well equipped to do this on behalf of our products and part of our arrangement with them, I think 20% of our payment from Chewy goes back to them as a rebate for marketing. So I see it show up on my own feed for Instagram, my own products show up and stuff. But when we do it ourselves, like I said, it's almost like we spread ourselves too thin because we don't have enough resources to devote to it. And I haven't seen a great return. That's kind of discouraging, I would say, which is why this time we want to take a different approach and try to put all our eggs in one basket and try to have a bigger impact with that one platform.

[Caitlin Smith]

Give me a sense of how much money you'd be able to spend on this. Like $5,000, $10,000, $20,000.

[G]

I would say about 5,000 to $8,000.

[Caitlin Smith]

All right, so you've got basically a very small budget.

[Guy Raz]

And you're right.

[Caitlin Smith]

I mean, every person, Caitlin, you guys may be experiencing the same thing. Customer acquisition over social media has really dropped, especially since the pandemic. Have you found that to be the case?

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Oh, 100%.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah. And it's expensive. And here, here's a thought for you. I, you know, because there's, of course, there's influencer marketing and finding the pet owners, and that's certainly worthwhile. But. But five to $8,000, you know, you. You really want to see how far you can stretch that. And I wonder whether it's worth looking. And it's gonna sound very self interested, right? Because of what we're doing here. And I'm not saying our show because we don't do this anyway, but there have to be podcasts that have, you know, 10 to 50,000 listeners a week, let's say, that are pet podcasts.

[Guy Raz]

There have to be.

[Caitlin Smith]

I mean, I don't know off the top of my head, but there's an.

[Guy Raz]

Intimacy when the host of that show.

[Caitlin Smith]

We do advertising on this show. When I talk about a product that I use, when they talk about products that they use, especially if it's to a very, very specific kind of audience, that could have a pretty big impact.

[Guy Raz]

You know, we did an episode of.

[Caitlin Smith]

The show a couple months ago about bull and Branch. I don't know if you heard that episode.

[G]

I did. It was a great.

[Guy Raz]

The betting, right.

[G]

And I love how they're a married couple and they get along so well.

[Guy Raz]

And they're awesome, Right.

[Caitlin Smith]

Scott and Missy Tannen. And if you remember that episode, they did something really, really risky.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, they took a million dollars.

[Caitlin Smith]

They took out SBA loans, they took out a mortgage on their home to buy.

[Guy Raz]

Advertising. 18 months of advertising on the Howard Stern Show.

[Caitlin Smith]

I think the minimum buy was a million dollars. It was an insane thing to do. Totally crazy. It was the beginning of their company, but they really. They put all their eggs in that basket.

[Guy Raz]

It was very risky.

[Caitlin Smith]

But it wasn't, if you think about it, because people Love Howard Stern. You know, people love Joe Rogan, whoever. They're different people, connect with different people in different ways. Alex Cooper of coloraddy. So there's something about a person and they don't have to be super famous.

[Guy Raz]

But if you listen to that person and you trust them and they're talking.

[Caitlin Smith]

About something that could be useful for them, it could have a huge impact.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, that Howard Stern ads that.

[Caitlin Smith]

They took out eventually turned bowl and Branch into a huge brand, which it is today. So it may be worth exploring podcasts that focus on pets and pet care.

[G]

That's a fantastic idea. I love that idea.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

The other thing I'm thinking about too is really that kind of lifetime value for your customers as well. And so how much you're willing to pay for each person that you're bringing into the loop, not spending too, too much on each person or each individual that you're acquiring so that you're able to be profitable on the items too. And so are there vehicles within Chewy that you can market on? Maybe it's similar items in a sponsored way. Okay. Customers who bought this might also like this item. And then you're a lot easier getting people to add that item to their cart.

[G]

That makes a lot of sense. And they do encourage vendors to support their in house campaigns. And I think going back to what you said about finding people where they already are, you know, that maybe I should think more carefully about that. That might be a better strategy than starting from scratch on the Internet and trying to find people, you know, out of nowhere.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

But I also love Guy's suggestion too. I have to tell you, I can't tell you how many people have told me that they heard about us on how I built this. And so there you go. It is, it is a fantastic marketing vehicle.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah. Especially if you can find, you know, and it doesn't have to be a podcast. It could be a great blog or.

[Guy Raz]

A substack or something.

[Caitlin Smith]

But where you've got, you know, somebody who really has between 10 and 50,000 people who are regularly consuming their content, the cost for that ad spend is going to be very low. So you may want to kind of experiment, you know, take that five to 8,000, don't blow it all in one show, but take a little bit of it and see how far that gets you.

[G]

Those are great suggestions. I would have never thought of that, honestly. So thank you so much.

[Caitlin Smith]

Cool. Marissa Gurdian. The brand is called Sweet Paws. Good luck. Congrats. We'll be following you.

[G]

Thank you. Such A pleasure to meet you both.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Nice to meet you.

[Caitlin Smith]

By the way, the other problem I have is that I only bring. I shouldn't say I. My wife only. She has always one poop bag tied to the leash. We don't have, like, a good case. But you know what's so great is that in our town, there's like every, you know, half a mile or something, there's like a dispensary.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Doggy bag station.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah, doggy bag station. Great idea.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

I am wholly reliant on those.

[Caitlin Smith]

Totally. It saved many a sneaker because you don't step and poop.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

It really has. Yeah. I'm very forgetful with the bags.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah, totally.

[Guy Raz]

Caitlin, before we let you go, I.

[Caitlin Smith]

Want to ask you one last question about your journey. Because now it's been, you know, a decade, more than a decade since you started. If you were to go back, right, and sort of visit yourself in that, you know, making. Making stuff in your kitchen, and you could say, hey, I'm coming from 12 years in the future here. Here's what I'm going to tell you. What might you tell that, Caitlin Smith.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Aside from do it and Run Faster? I think that. I think the other one just relates back to learning. One of the greatest parts being an entrepreneur and building a growing business is that you get to learn so much. And so to lean into that, not feel like you have to have all the answers. I think in the early days, I felt like I needed to know the answer to everything. And the fact is you don't. And there are people for that. But also, if you're open to learning, if you're really going out there and seeking that education, then you'll get there a lot faster.

[Caitlin Smith]

Yeah, that's awesome advice. That's Caitlin Smith, founder and CEO of Simple Mills. Caitlin, thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Thank you for having me. Great to see you.

[Caitlin Smith]

And by the way, if you haven't heard Caitlin's original How I Built this episode, you've got to go back and give it a listen. You'll find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

The weekends where I wasn't going to production runs, I was doing demos in the stores. And so my, like, rule of thumb was if it was a three hour demo, I needed to bake for three hours in order to make enough muffins for the demo.

[Caitlin Smith]

How many muffins would that be for three hours?

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

I would guess somewhere around like 600.

[Guy Raz]

600. Oh, my God.

[Caitlin Smith]

Right, because somebody would come up and say, oh, let me just take one for my husband, he's over in the dairy aisle.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Or the best is the kids that are unsupervised and they would just eat them.

[Caitlin Smith]

They'd just shove them in their mouths.

[Scott Vandenbroucke]

Steal them off the table. Like you're not supposed to give them to a child who's unsupervised, but sometimes the child takes it and runs.

[Caitlin Smith]

I also want to share that just.

[Guy Raz]

This month Simple Mills announced plans to.

[Caitlin Smith]

Be acquired by Flowers foods for almost $800 million.

[Guy Raz]

Kaitlyn will continue to lead the brand.

[Caitlin Smith]

And if the name of that company, Flower Food, sounds familiar, it's because they also acquired another HIBT alumni, Dave's Killer Bread. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

[Guy Raz]

And by the way, please make sure.

[Caitlin Smith]

To check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] or on substack.

[Guy Raz]

And of course, if you're working on.

[Caitlin Smith]

A business and you'd like to be.

[Guy Raz]

On this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions.

[Caitlin Smith]

Or issues you are currently facing because.

[Guy Raz]

We would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you.

[Caitlin Smith]

And by the way, we'll put all.

[Guy Raz]

Of this in the podcast description as well.

[Caitlin Smith]

This episode was produced by JC Howard.

[Guy Raz]

With music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.

[Caitlin Smith]

It was edited by John Isabella.

[Guy Raz]

Our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production production team also includes Alex Chung, Karla Estevez, Elaine Coates, Chris Masini, Kathryn Cipher, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, Devin Schwartz, and Neva Grant.

[Caitlin Smith]

I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I built this lab.

[Guy Raz]

If you like How I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. It takes a lot to grow your business. You've got to attract audiences, score leads, manage all the channels. It's a lot of long days and late nights, but with Breeze HubSpot's new AI tools, it's never been easier to be a marketer and crush your goals fast. Which means pretty soon your company will have a lot to celebrate, like 110%.

[Caitlin Smith]

More leads in just 12 months. Visit HubSpot.com marketers to learn more.