Advice Line with Lyndon Cormack of Herschel Supply Co.

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz – Episode Summary: "Advice Line with Lyndon Cormack of Herschel Supply Co."

Release Date: February 27, 2025

In this engaging episode of "How I Built This with Guy Raz," host Guy Raz welcomes back Lyndon Cormack, co-founder of the renowned Vancouver-based apparel brand Herschel Supply Co. Together, they delve into the Advice Line, a segment designed to assist budding entrepreneurs in navigating their business challenges. Throughout the episode, Lyndon shares invaluable insights drawn from his entrepreneurial journey, offering tailored advice to three dynamic business founders.

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Introduction: Setting the Stage

The episode commences with Guy Raz introducing Lyndon Cormack and recapping Herschel's inception story. Lyndon and his brother Jamie launched Herschel Supply Co. in 2009 without prior manufacturing experience, leading to a series of trials and errors. Their perseverance transformed Herschel into a multi-million dollar brand recognized for its stylish, retro-inspired travel gear.

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Caller 1: Lauren Beefis of Memory Lane Gym

Caller Profile:

• Name: Lauren Beefis
• Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
• Business: Founder of Memory Lane Gym, specializing in creating bespoke commemorative books that preserve family legacies.

Key Discussion Points:

• Business Genesis: Lauren shares her personal motivation rooted in a small family and limited opportunities to preserve family stories. Her background as a newspaper reporter exposed her to untold heroic tales, inspiring her to create Memory Lane Gym.

  [08:32] Lauren Beefis: "There aren't a lot of people to keep our family story alive. That kind of was the beginning of it."

• Operational Challenges: Lauren highlights the high cost of production, with bespoke books starting at $25,000, and the slow scaling process due to the personalized nature of her services.

• Marketing Dilemmas: Seeking effective strategies to convey the brand's luxury and emotional value to attract high-net-worth clients.

Lyndon's Advice:

• Position as a Luxury Brand: Lyndon emphasizes the importance of branding Memory Lane Gym as a premium service, akin to established luxury brands, to justify the high price point.

  [13:48] Lyndon Cormack: "I think you should look at yourself as a luxury brand and then take your favorite luxury brands or ones that you aspire to look at and really figure out what they do well."

• Utilize Public Relations: He suggests hiring a publicist to secure media coverage in high-end magazines and local news outlets, enhancing brand visibility and credibility.

• Targeted Marketing Efforts: Focus on niche markets where affluent families are likely to engage, leveraging referrals and strategic partnerships to expand reach.

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Caller 2: John Thurling of Floordrobe

Caller Profile:

• Name: John Thurling
• Location: London, UK (currently in Johannesburg, South Africa)
• Business: Founder of Floordrobe, an innovative solution for managing clothes clutter in small living spaces.

Key Discussion Points:

• Product Innovation: John introduces Floordrobe as a space-efficient ladder with specialized hooks designed to prevent clothing from stretching, catering to individuals who prefer not to commit to laundry cycles immediately.

  [24:10] John Thurling: "It's like a ladder with hooks. The first is a normal hook, and the second is a miniature coat hanger that doesn't crease your shirt."

• Market Validation: Successfully raised £18,000 on Kickstarter against a £4,000 goal, indicating strong initial interest.

• Scaling Challenges: Struggles with converting online interest into sales and the inherent difficulty of marketing a highly personal product.

Lyndon's Advice:

• Leverage Retail Partnerships: Suggests partnering with boutique hotels and local stores on a consignment basis to allow potential customers to experience the product firsthand without the commitment of online purchases.

  [31:06] Lyndon Cormack: "Maybe you should consider working with boutique hotels or gift stores on consignment so people can see how it works."

• Enhance Visual Marketing: Recommends using aesthetically pleasing environments for product photoshoots to highlight Floordrobe's functionality and design, appealing to design-conscious consumers.

• Content Creation and Influencer Collaborations: Encourages creating compelling content for platforms like Pinterest and engaging influencers to demonstrate the product’s value in real-life settings.

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Caller 3: Virginia Lynn Peterson of Swoop

Caller Profile:

• Name: Virginia Lynn Peterson
• Location: Anchorage, Alaska
• Business: Founder of Swoop, a lifestyle brand specializing in bras designed for nurses, addressing the discomfort of long shifts.

Key Discussion Points:

• Product Differentiation: Virginia explains Swoop's unique design with front rings and sliders, made from soft modal material, offering a balance between support and comfort without wires.

  [39:25] Virginia Lynn Peterson: "Our bras are wire-free, lined with super soft modal, and designed to be more supportive than a bralette without being as tight as a sports bra."

• Sales Channels: Currently operates with a balanced sales strategy—one-third direct-to-consumer via the website, one-third through in-person markets, and one-third wholesale in local stores like REI and Hotel Alyeska.

• Expansion Obstacles: Despite strong local sales, expanding wholesale outside Alaska has been challenging, with limited success from cold outreach methods.

Lyndon's Advice:

• Refocus Marketing Efforts: Identifies nursing as a substantial market with over 3.4 million female nurses in the U.S., suggesting targeted marketing within this demographic.

  [43:36] Lyndon Cormack: "Even if it's 1% or 10% of the 3.4 million female nurses, that's a significant market."

• Explore Nursing Associations: Recommends partnering with nursing organizations for advertising and exposure, leveraging their platforms to reach the intended audience effectively.

• Trade Show Investment: Acknowledges the high cost but underscores the value of attending trade shows for wholesale expansion, where direct interactions with buyers can lead to meaningful partnerships.

  [47:59] Lyndon Cormack: "I think it's worthwhile making the investment and doing that kind of travel because you're looking to expand outside of Alaska."

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Lyndon Cormack’s Closing Insights

Towards the episode's conclusion, Lyndon reflects on his own entrepreneurial journey with Herschel Supply Co., emphasizing the value of embracing failures as learning experiences that build character and resilience.

[49:49] Lyndon Cormack: "Embracing failures and struggles are something that I would probably tell that version of myself as we were starting, that it's part of the journey and it's going to make us better in the end."

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Key Takeaways

1. Brand Storytelling is Crucial: Crafting an authentic and compelling brand story helps differentiate a business in crowded markets.

2. Luxury Branding for High-End Products: Positioning products as luxury items can justify higher price points and attract affluent customers.

3. Strategic Partnerships Enhance Visibility: Collaborating with established brands or niche markets, such as boutique hotels or nursing associations, can amplify brand presence and drive sales.

4. Visual and Content Marketing Matter: High-quality visuals and engaging content are essential for products that rely on aesthetics and functionality.

5. Persistence in Scaling: Building a business requires sustained effort, adaptability, and the willingness to learn from setbacks.

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Notable Quotes

• Lauren Beefis on Business Motivation:

  [08:32] "There aren't a lot of people to keep our family story alive. That kind of was the beginning of it."

• Lyndon Cormack on Luxury Branding:

  [13:48] "I think you should look at yourself as a luxury brand and then take your favorite luxury brands or ones that you aspire to look at and really figure out what they do well."

• John Thurling on Product Solution:

  [24:10] "It's like a ladder with hooks. The first is a normal hook, and the second is a miniature coat hanger that doesn't crease your shirt."

• Lyndon Cormack on Embracing Failures:

  [49:49] "Embracing failures and struggles are something that I would probably tell that version of myself as we were starting, that it's part of the journey and it's going to make us better in the end."

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This episode offers a treasure trove of entrepreneurial wisdom, highlighting the importance of storytelling, strategic marketing, and resilience. Whether you're a startup founder or an established business owner, the insights shared by Lyndon Cormack provide actionable strategies to overcome challenges and propel your business toward success.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

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[Lyndon Cormack]

Joining me this week is Lyndon Cormack, co founder of the Vancouver based apparel brand Herschel Supply Company. Lyndon, welcome back to the show.

Thanks for having me, Guy. Happy to be here.

It's great to have you back. You were first on How I Built this in October of 2023. You told the story of building Herschel into a multi million dollar apparel brand. And if you guys haven't heard that episode, go check it out. It's so good we'll put a link to it in the episode description. But basically, if you don't know Herschel, they make really stylish travel gear and things like backpacks. And you know, I think a lot of people listening will recognize them because they have this kind of retro feel. And in that episode, Lyndon, you talked about how you and your brother started it in 2009, you and Jamie, and.

[Guy Raz]

Although both of you had worked in.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Retail, neither of you actually had any experience in manufacturing. So you kind of had to figure it out as you went along with some fits and starts and some disastrous product runs. But it's just a great story and I'm so glad to have you back on. Thanks for being here. Thanks for helping me give advice.

Oh yeah, it's a pleasure and an honor. And again, I always love hearing entrepreneurial stories and the trials and tribulations. It's a tough road, but it can be incredibly rewarding.

It's a tough road. As you know, as you've trudged through that. Before we bring on our first caller, I want to ask you a couple questions. One of the things that you you guys did so well and I've made a video of this on my Instagram, I make videos of our episodes was story. And you know, the brand tells a story. Like you don't have to know that Herschel was inspired by this town you visited when you and your brother were kids. And you kind of already know that just by looking at the label and the design. And I know that was really intentional story, right? In sort of building a what advice would you give to the startup entrepreneur trying to figure out a Story or how to tell their story.

We have these words that we've used throughout my time at Herschel, which I'm still at today, and we have this thing that says story matters. You know, how we tell stories, how our product tells stories, how we act as a brand, how we use visuals. All of those things are just so important to making sure we're telling the story that we want our end consumer to. And you know, Herschel's always been a very democratic brand, and that was on purpose. But being a democratic brand makes you tell a whole bunch of stories. So we really try to find these macro stories that we find that cross pollinate a bunch of different demographics. And certain things would be our commitment to quality, our commitment to sustainability. Our bags are all made from recycled textiles. Our consistency to having fun, you know, not taking ourselves too seriously. And sometimes getting it right takes time to figure out what the right story is. But when you have it and it feels good and authentic, then lean right into it.

Since you started Herschel, the landscape is a lot busier, a lot more crowded. Right. How much of what you do has to be, you know, promoting the brand, keeping it front and center? I mean, is there. Is there always this kind of push to just make sure that, you know, people are aware of the brand? In other words, given that there's so much competition in the space, I guess you can't really just sort of sit back and let the products sell themselves. You have to constantly reintroduce it to people.

Yeah, reintroduce, introduce probably both of those things. I think the most important thing for us is just staying relevant. And we want to age up with our consumers who might have bought us in the very first year and the first numbers of years of the brand. We're 15 years old now, but we also want to make sure we're relevant to the new audience. So, you know, the 15 year old or someone just going into high school, and how do we remain relevant to both? You know, we're with people as they're creating their own stories, whether it's the first day of a job or a trip overseas or anything. Herschel's a small part of that. And we've always wanted to be sort of a co star in the movie. We didn't want to be the star of the movie, and we wanted the individual to be the star. And as people are creating their own stories and hopefully sharing them along the way, we take so much inspiration from that.

Yeah. All right, Lyndon, why don't we take our first caller.

Let's dig into this.

Hello, caller. Please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Lauren Beefis]

Hi, Guy. And hi, Linden. Thank you so much for taking my call. My name is Lauren Beefis and I'm calling from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and I am the founder of Memory Lane Gym. So we partner with families and family owned businesses to preserve their life stories and legacy in bespoke commemorative books.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Well, thanks for calling. Welcome to the show.

[Lauren Beefis]

Thank you.

[Lyndon Cormack]

So tell me a little bit more about this. This is a. You basically work with families to put together, like, a book about their family story.

[Caller]

Mm.

[Lauren Beefis]

So, yeah, we sit down with a family and we spend hours interviewing them and going through pictures, mementos, doing outside, and we put it all together in this commemorative book for the family to have.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Wow. And tell me how you came up with this idea. How did this start?

[Lauren Beefis]

Right. So I have a very small family, so I have no siblings, no cousins. My grandparents, they also, they passed away when I was really young. And so there aren't a lot of people to keep our family story alive. That kind of was the beginning of it. And then, you know, I worked as a newspaper reporter hearing so many World War II veterans, and I'm hearing these crazy, courageous things that men and women had done and they had never told anybody their family didn't know. And so I thought, okay, there's something here and I want to do something about it.

[Lyndon Cormack]

What I love about this idea is I'm a former journalist too, and this really is a great use of your skills as a former reporter, because you know how to ask questions, you know how to get to the details of somebody's story. I love this. How long does it take to put a book together?

[Lauren Beefis]

Oh, my goodness. Well, our ideal would be nine months. But I will be honest with you and say we still have a few on the calendar from 2018, 2019. It can take a while.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And how many projects do you have going at any given time? Like how many books?

[Lauren Beefis]

Right. So we've completed 35, and then right now we have 15 in process.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And you travel, you'll fly to. Okay. And how much does it cost to make?

[Lauren Beefis]

It's expensive, so it's. Our base price starts at 25,000.

[Lyndon Cormack]

25,000?

[Lauren Beefis]

Yeah, 25,000. And then honestly, it just goes up from there. Yeah, I mean, it is a bespoke service. We kind of, you know, we get so involved in these people's lives. It's amazing what we get to hear.

[Lyndon Cormack]

I want to bring in Lyndon in just a moment. But before I bring him in, tell us what your question is for us.

[Lauren Beefis]

Right, so we're kind of in this place right now where we've kind of found our ideal client as, you know, someone with a high net worth, this multigenerational family, and they want to share their story. And so we're kind of rebranding a little bit. And I'm wondering what is the most effective type of marketing for Memory Lane Jane? To convey our brand and our services.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah. All right, Linden. I want to bring you on a bespoke family. It's really cool. I'm looking at the website. I mean, you guys, clearly they're doing tons of research, and then they give you this really, like, very well put together book about a family's life story. Any questions for Lauren or any thoughts?

Yeah. Hi, Lauren. Congratulations.

[Lauren Beefis]

Thank you.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah, I mean, I will say one thing that I think my daughters might be very surprised, but I never get sticker shock. And when you said 25 to 30,000, I was like, okay, yeah, these must be really, really good. It sets the bar high, which is really great. I was just. As you were chatting, I was scrolling through actually your Instagram, and I saw a quote saying, give the gift of your lifetime, which. Which I think sounds really nice. And that feels like that's what you're doing. Is it just you maybe walk us through, you know, is it you? Is it a team? How do these things come together?

[Lauren Beefis]

Right. So I right now am the one who does all of the interviewing. That's kind of my sweet spot. And then it's a very collaborative process. I just hired this year, I have a director of projects and communications and then everyone else on our staff. So we have 12 contractors that we work with. So designers, editors, writers.

[Lyndon Cormack]

In terms of the price point, I think, you know, just to kind of make it clear, because I can imagine the amount of work that goes into it. I mean, it's. I'm imagining this is not. Not. You're not designing this business to scale. It's hard to scale something like this. You could do it, but it's hard. I mean, it's really requires teams of people, long hours, slow, methodical work.

[Lauren Beefis]

Right. So next year, our goal would be to sell 20 books. That's scaling for us. Right. It's a very. It's just like a boutique, right? A boutique kind of service. And so a lot of our work comes from referrals. And once someone sees a book, I mean, we can almost guarantee that they'll want to do It. I mean, if the book is in hand. And so I've thought, okay, is the book the marketing piece? But the books are really expensive. The books are private. So these are just for the family. A lot of the families don't want their books to be seen. And so I thought, okay, how do I kind of branch out and just drum up more interest from someone who has never held a book in their hand and all they have in their mind is, say, a Shutterfly book, and then they hear the price and they think, what? Never.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah, Linden. I mean, we're talking about a super premium service here and something that takes many years to do. It's like making a long term investment in a family story, which is worth a lot. We don't put a price on it necessarily. But why not, right? I mean, how would you go about trying to sort of explain to people why this is, you know, worthwhile and then how to convince people that this is something that they should, you know, maybe consider.

Well, full disclaimer. My mind goes at a million miles a second, so I might spit a whole bunch of stuff back at you, Lauren, and permission to tell me to be quiet so you can ask me questions. But it feels like this is a luxury brand. And I do feel that you should look at yourself as a luxury brand and then take your favorite luxury brands or ones that, you know, you aspire to look at and really figure out what they do well, you know, how they brand, how they speak. Because the people I think, you know, you've mentioned the high net worth, et cetera, those are the people you're going to be speaking to. And I think that those luxury brands have done a good job of knowing and crafting a language. I sort of was thinking beyond that about estate planning and, you know, if someone's doing an estate plan and who knows what a lot of money is these days, But I think $25,000, if you had a quite a large estate is nothing. Okay, so how do I think that was? You mentioned the referrals is going to be key, but how do you get more people in the pot? So there's more referrals coming and I feel like just financial wealth managers, I can tell you they're all over LinkedIn. Is that a great platform you're using and utilizing already to really go after those kind of people?

[Lauren Beefis]

No, it hasn't. I honestly, I feel like up until this year, you know, we. The website hasn't changed since we. I first started. Right. I just, we got really overwhelmed with the work of the business instead of working on the business. And now I feel like finally this year with, you know, hiring our director of operations and then having all this contract staff, I think, oh, now I could do the LinkedIn. Now I can change the website and the branding a little bit to match the luxury product that we're offering.

[Lyndon Cormack]

This to me, seems like it seems like an opportunity to really get television news coverage of what you're doing, or a magazine article, a really kind of in depth story talking about the process and how you do what you do. Because I think once people can see that and get exposed to that, they'll understand why this is something of value. And I wonder whether you might want to look at hiring like a publicist to kind of go out there and build momentum around the brand.

[Lauren Beefis]

Right? That's a really, I think that's a great idea. Especially so when I first started, I was interviewed on one of our local news stations and it crashed my website. I got so many inquiries, but no book out of any of them because they all said, who do you think you are charging that much money? So I thought, oh my gosh, okay, maybe this isn't my market. But I think what you're saying with a publicist is they could find where our people are, right? They could narrow that down.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And I couldn't agree more. I mean, first of all, I think that the price you're charging is like, I think it's a gift, right? Like, I think it shows quality, but also it actually could be a little bit of clickbait, right? Like, if people are seeing it, that's probably actually intriguing. And I think that, you know, again, I'm not going to be an expert in all the magazines in the United States, but I think of like Forbes or Robb Report or my oldest daughter goes to school in Orange County, California, and every single time I go to the hotel to see her, I got this Orange county magazine and that's talking about whether it's new stores or restaurants or ideas or ideas like this. So I actually think this is a story that's endearing, engaging, emotional, like all the heartstrings you really want to pull. And I do think a publicist would really help get this out there.

It's a great idea. Those city magazines that you mentioned, Linden, people read those, man, those. I mean, and you're doing a story on a family, let's say in Detroit or, you know, whatever. I mean, that's maybe where you want to start to pitch the idea. And maybe the magazine writer can also visit with the family and. But I love this idea, Linda, that you brought up of thinking of it as a luxury brand. Like, thinking of it as an LVMH brand. Right. Because nobody bats an eye when you go into Gucci or Hermes and there's a bag there for $5,000. Nobody's like, wait, that's just a piece of leather. Nobody says that. People literally buy this stuff. So there is a world where people look at that price and they say, well, this must be really special.

Yeah. I think that I would definitely talk about what your core business attributes are. Like, what do you really want to be? And I think that the elevated experience, you know, unearthing untold stories and doing it in a very bespoke, stealing your word, Lauren way is, I think, going to be really important. And I think there's so much opportunity with, like, I think of luxury retirement communities. I think of, like, Palm Springs Springs to mind when I think of it this. But, like, where are you able to, you know, finding the 15 people and the 30 before that you've already worked with, what were the similarities? And when you figure out what those similarities are, then look for lookalikes, right? Look for the lookalike consumers. And then just to rewind one second, when you said scaling is going from 15 to 20, which I think is great, but maybe go from 15 to 18 and spend that extra time on brand.

Right.

Spend that extra time where you invest in your own brand, and then Maybe you do 22 the next year after that to make up for the loss in revenue.

[Lauren Beefis]

Yeah, that's really good.

[Lyndon Cormack]

The company is called Memory Lane. J and Lauren Beefis, thank you so much. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks so much for calling in.

[Lauren Beefis]

Thank you so much.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Thanks, Lauren.

[Lauren Beefis]

Thank you.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah, I mean, we have sort of scattered family history stuff, and we just started to kind of be more proactive about this. You know, my parents are, thank God, in great health and shape. But just to make sure that we know the story and we know the details, and this is like, this makes it easy. This is like it's there forever.

I mean, my parents are as well, in good health, but I feel like as people are maybe having conversations about estate planning, just having the knowledge that these things exist out there, I feel that's one of her obstacles that Lauren's gonna have to get around is just letting more people know that things like this exist. And, you know, we have to have stories written to read.

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this. What makes a leader? Well, a true leader leads by example. And a true leader takes risks too. They plunge into life with determination. For those who approach life with a palpable passion, there's the Range Rover Sport. Sophisticated refinement meets visceral power in the Range Rover Sport, a new dimension of sporting luxury. With its adaptive off road cruise control, you can monitor ground conditions an acclimate to the present terrain. Plus adaptive dynamics reduces unwanted body movements to deliver smooth and composed handling. Build your Range Rover Sport@Land RoverUSA.com do you experience excessive bouts of money stress? Do you avoid your bank balance like it's a text from an ex? Do you feel guilt and second guessing about your spending? If you answered yes, you may be suffering from financial funk. Ynab, spelled Y N A B is a life changing app designed to cure financial funk with a simple method that offers total control of your money. The average YNAB user reports saving close to $600 in their first month and $6,000 in their first year. Side effects may include less financial stress, getting better sleep and eliminating arguments about money. Using YNAB may be habit forming. Before starting, ask your wallet if adding more joy to every day and every dollar is right for you. Listeners of How I Built this can claim an excl 3 month trial subscription for free with no credit card [e-mail] Bilt Life is short. Spend it well with YNAB. Facial hair is personal whether you're clean shaven, stubbled or bearded. Dollar Shave Club is for everybody and every budget. Their shave and grooming products are always high quality and never overpriced. But but don't take our word for it. Try for yourself. Dollar Shave Club products are now available everywhere, so you can order from their website, Amazon or get them at your favorite retailer near you. Alternatively, you can visit their site right now for 20% off $20 or more and get your products delivered right to your door. Visit dollarshaveclub.com howibuilt this and use promo code built for 20% off $20 or more. And remember, whatever you shave welcome to the club.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Lyndon Cormack, co founder of Herschel Supply Company. What do you say Lyndon? Should we take another call?

I'd love to.

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice line. You're on with Lyndon Cormack of Herschel. Introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, a little bit about your business.

[John Thurling]

Sure. Hi. Hi, Guy. Hi, Linden.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Hello.

[John Thurling]

I am John Thirding. The business is based in London, but I'm currently in Johannesburg, South Africa, and I am the founder of floordrobe, which is the solution to the clothes that are currently sitting on your chair.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Aha. I don't even want to tell you how much crap is draped over the chair in our bedroom. What is floor? How does that. Yeah, how does that solve that problem?

[John Thurling]

So what it looks like is essentially a ladder that takes up much smaller space than a whole chair would.

[Lyndon Cormack]

A ladder that doesn't fold. Just a static ladder.

[John Thurling]

No, it just sort of sits up against the wall, and then it's got two different types of hooks. The first is just normal hook where you can hang your. Anything with a loop, but that tends to stretch your clothing. And so the second type of hook is a 9 centimeter miniature coat hanger that allows you to put on your work shirts or your hoodies or something that doesn't crease your shirt, so it's actually ready to go the next day. You can wake up in the morning, put it on, and head out the door. And it's for those clothes, those in betweens, you know, those ones that you've worn once, they're not going in the laundry, but you sort of feel weird putting them in the wardrobe. That's where they go.

[Lyndon Cormack]

I'm just gonna be transparent here, but I am. I think I'd be really embarrassed if you guys and everyone listening were to come to my bedroom now, because I have. I do have crap on the floor. I just put it on a shelf or on a chair, because. That's. Right. Like, I don't. If I wear a shirt or something once, I don't need to wash it. Right. And so. And I'm too lazy to. Or I just. I take it up, put it aside. I don't fold it right away. So this is for those people. People like me.

[John Thurling]

Exactly. Guy, you're not alone. And me personally, and speaking to some of our customers, they feel a bit weird putting it back in the. In the wardrobe. Yeah, that's like clean clothes. Very clean clothes. You know, it's in between space.

[Lyndon Cormack]

It's in between the hamper and the closet.

[John Thurling]

Exactly.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah, exactly.

[John Thurling]

And so that. That is. That is the wardrobe.

[Lyndon Cormack]

How did you. How did you come up with this idea?

[John Thurling]

Yeah. So I moved to London last year, or me and my girlfriend moved to London last year and we moved into a small flat. We were avid chair users, both of us. We had one chair that was just filled with all the crap, but our bedroom didn't have space for the chair. And I realized that I would just put my clothes on the floor. And the chair's bad, but the floor was just like terrible for me. And I was like picking my clothes up off the floor, putting them on, going outside, and that was terrible for me. So I thought, I can make something better here. And then I iterated on it a couple of times and then got something for myself. My girlfriend used it all the time and she was, she's one of those people who, she loves me, but she wouldn't have, she would have said, john, this is not a good product. But she was using it every day. And I thought maybe there's something here. And so I googled factories in Vietnam who make furniture. And we got, we got a sample made, got a couple of samples made. Weren't good the first time. And then we had a Kickstarter. Kickstarter went well and now we have a business.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And you design, you designed this. You basically said, I want like, basically a ladder with hooks.

[John Thurling]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So the ladders, the ladder's sort of the simple part. The hooks was a bespoke part.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Right.

[John Thurling]

But I was sort of like, okay, the hook is where I think the value is. Otherwise it's just a ladder.

[Lyndon Cormack]

So you got one sort of sample made and then you launched a Kickstarter to launch the business.

[John Thurling]

Yeah.

[Lyndon Cormack]

How much did you raise in the Kickstarter?

[John Thurling]

Yeah, so we wanted to presell about £4,000 worth and we sold about £18,000 worth of units. Just one product, just a Floordrobe.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Wow.

[John Thurling]

And then we, well, I made a website and now we just started selling the product.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And how much does the, is it cost right now?

[John Thurling]

Yeah. So the floordrobe costs 60 pounds.

[Lyndon Cormack]

60 pounds, so about 70 bucks roughly. Yeah, yeah, 70, 68. The pound is so weak compared to the dollar now. And is this your full time job now? No, no. What's your job?

[John Thurling]

Yeah, so I work in climate finance essentially. Like we build carbon projects and this is my side hustle that is fast. Fast turning into like two main hustles, I suppose.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And with the hope of maybe making this your main job. Yeah. Okay. All right, cool. So lots to, lots to talk about. Tell me what, what your question is for us today.

[John Thurling]

Yeah, so my question to you and to Lyndon is, as a D2C business, we need to get people to try the product. But we're not a sweet business. Like, you can't just pick us up off the aisle, try it one time and think, oh, that's great, and then go back and get some more. It's more binary that you buy it or you don't.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah.

[John Thurling]

And the bedroom is quite a uniquely personal space. And so I think people quite hesitant to put something in their bedroom. Rightly so. And so as a DTC business, it's how to get people to try the product maybe without them having to commit to a full purchase, you know, so they can see it, feel it, get comfortable with it.

[Lyndon Cormack]

All right, cool. Lyndon, I want to bring you in here. The floor drobe. Maybe this is not a problem you have. Maybe you are very disciplined, Lyndon. Maybe you fold your stuff, you wear your jeans, you fold them perfectly crisp and put them back in the closet.

Yeah, I wish. First of all, congratulations, John. And I am not really good at the folding or putting things back. Maybe a few things, like lots of sweaters I'll fold and put down on a shelf. But aside from that, I'm not so good. John, I have a few questions. Your question. I'm not sure if it's exactly the question I would have. You know, the Kickstarter proved that people can see value in this. So I think every business, I always say every business starts with a problem and you've identified one. The product is simple. It is a ladder with your bespoke hooks. And I think that it's pretty easy to see that on your website. I mean, I sort of get it right. Maybe I don't get the. Like, it doesn't stretch out your shirts and all that, but I think that's a value add, which is great. But I mean, I feel like you've got a lot right so far, you know, so where my mind goes is you live in London, there is unbelievable boutique hotels, everything from high to low. It's a great idea and, you know, having this associated with some of those. So people could potentially try it on in Soho House as one comes to mind in Shoreditch or one of those. But also just continually using beautiful spaces to show different environments that your product lives within. Whether that's renting, you know, borrowing a room for, you know, a couple hours or renting it for the night, and you and your girlfriend can have a staycation after. But using these for photo shoots of just illustrating all the different spaces and places that you can use your product I mean, guy knows this from our episode, but I love design, I love interiors, I love spaces. And you know, this I feel like where it would really motivate me is, is just seeing this continually in beautiful spaces. Especially because I think you're selling neatness, like you're selling organization and neatness, you know?

[John Thurling]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, exactly. House proud. Yes. I guess one of my sort of follow up questions would be one of my customers came back and the sales since we've launched haven't been like the Kickstarter, it's been a bit slow. And one of my customers came back and he said the product is so much higher quality than I thought for something that I bought off Instagram. And so like that still got me thinking. I was like, well, I think people need to feel it or touch it. And you know, Lyndon, when I was re listening to your episode, you went straight to retail. And so I was thinking, well, maybe it shouldn't just be D2C. Maybe it actually should be, you know, you can touch it, you can feel it, you can see it in the bedroom.

[Lyndon Cormack]

I think Lyndon, to kind of double down because I think it's a great idea. What you talked about and John, I was wondering if you had reached out to any boutique hotels and if not, maybe you should consider doing it. You know, I think we did an episode on a boat bike brand in the US called Priority a few years ago and their whole strategy was to work with hotels. There are hotels all over the United States that have Priority bicycles. You know, when, when you want to borrow a bike, they've got like six of them. And so that's how they built awareness. So the idea of having these in, you know, you pick a couple of really cool boutique hotels or Soho House, if you can get in there and with a little, some kind of sign or some kind of way that people know that they could order it, you know, would you like your own floor, Dr. Here's the QR code.

[John Thurling]

Yeah.

[Lyndon Cormack]

But I also think that there's a world where you, you work with gift stores and really cool, like boutique shops in London and you work with them on consignment. You know, maybe they have one or two in stock and people can just kind of see how it works because it's not a product you can, you can send to people like, you know, Warby Parker glasses, where they send you the pair, you try them on, then you send them back. Those costs are too prohibitive. I mean the cost to ship it and then return shipping, you can't absorb.

That, Yeah, I think it feels like, John, what you want to start is, again, I always go to like, okay, what are the values? What does this brand want to do? And I feel like if you want to sell organization, you probably want to be a design brand. I can tell, like, from the aesthetics. You know, you care about aesthetics. And so that's a game where my mind goes to these beautiful spaces in London. And I think also having association with other brands is going to be also important. So I did just look again on your front page, and I do actually see a Herschel bag on one of your photos. So thank you as well for that.

Whoa.

[John Thurling]

It's actually my bag.

[Guy Raz]

Look at that.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Appreciate that.

Look at that.

I've got my number one fan here.

[John Thurling]

When you talk about a story about your bag being a story when you travel with it. Yeah, it's exactly that.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah.

[John Thurling]

Awesome bag I moved to London with.

[Lyndon Cormack]

That's right. Look at that. He's got a Herschel bag right there on the front page of the website.

[John Thurling]

It's actually next to me right now.

[Lyndon Cormack]

That was, you know, shameless self promotion for Herschel. So thank you, John. So I would try to make sure that brands, when you're doing photo shoots, you're gonna have all these consumer segmentations, right? And so I'll just make some up for a second. But you have maybe for, you know, young guys, you have streetwear, right. Like, I mean, an amazing brand based out of London called Palace, you know, or the supreme of New York, basically. But like, like showing a Supreme jacket hanging on that, showing, you know, a Nike shoe for your streetwear consumer, you know, then you. You flip to maybe, you know, the person going to wear who wears a sport coat or, or, you know, the. The girl who might be more interested in going to the markets and thrift stores and what does her floor drobe look like versus what mine would look like versus what guys would look like.

It's a great idea.

[John Thurling]

Exactly. And speak to some personality. Like different personalities, you know, that could resonate with different people when they see it. Yeah, I. I see it.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Lyndon, how much do you charge an hour if you're consulting.

Today? It's all free. I'm just happy to contribute back to this amazing community.

No, it's a great idea. I love it, John. I love this product. It's really great. And I think that you've got something here. Congrats and good luck.

[John Thurling]

Thank you, guy. Thanks. That means a lot. And thanks, Lyndon. Really appreciate the feedback. It's going to be implemented, of course.

[Lyndon Cormack]

John, we're rooting for you. Your assets are going to be key, John. So create beautiful assets and get them out into the world.

John Thurling floor drobe. Thanks, man.

[John Thurling]

Cheers. Thanks.

[Lyndon Cormack]

I mean, I just.

[Guy Raz]

I love that idea.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Right? You just get it in a hotel room. Because how many times have you been in a hotel room where there's something really cool? It happened to me. I was in a hotel where they had this beautiful coffee maker, and I bought the coffee machine because it was so nice, and it wasn't even trying to sell it to me. It was just in the room.

Yeah, I think. I think he's onto something. I think the before and after pictures, like what it looks like with stuff all over the floor, flipping right over to what it looks like, organized. I think of Pinterest being his friend, you know, like, getting, like, beautiful curated rooms with his product on. Pinterest is good. And then probably trying to find influencers there that, you know, maybe sends a product to and have them speak for him, of all the. The benefits. But, yeah, he's got a good start. And so just create more content. Get it out in the world.

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy, and we've got the answers right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. We're always talking about smart ideas here. And using NerdWallet to find the best financial products for you, like credit cards, is more than smart. It's genius because the nerds already did all the research, so it's easy to find the right card for you in minutes. I'll prove it. I want to upgrade my card, so let's use NerdWallet's Card Finder tool together. Okay, let's see here. What's my credit score? Okay, let me tap that in. And what kind of rewards do I want? I probably cash back on pretty much everything.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Let's see.

[Guy Raz]

Am I planning to make a big purchase soon? Yes, I am. I'd like to buy a car, actually, and I'll probably spend, let's see, about, oh, $2,000, might monthly. Okay, here they are. Here are the results and some pretty great recommendations. And wow. This card they're suggesting has the cash back and flexibility I need, and I've never even heard of it before. Okay, I am sold on this. Now it's your turn. Get matched with your card [e-mail] terms and conditions apply. Credit products subject to lender approval. See nerdwallet.com for details.

[Caller]

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[Lyndon Cormack]

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[Lyndon Cormack]

Foreign.

Welcome back to the advice line on How I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Lyndon Cormack. So, Lyndon, what do you say? Are you ready for our next caller?

I'm ready to jump in. Let's go.

Awesome. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Lyndon Cormac from Herschel. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, a little bit about your business.

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Hi, Guy. Hi, Linden. I'm so excited to be here. My name is Virginia Lynn Peterson. I'm in Anchorage, Alaska, and I'm the founder of Swoop. I started my business out of a need. My background is in emergency room nursing, and I couldn't find a bra that I love to wear for a 12 hour shift, so I made my own. And now we've become a lifestyle brand for people on the go.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Amazing. Welcome to the show. So, Swoop, this is so started out, you're a nurse. Are you still a nurse?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

A little bit. I'm what they call registry now, so I kind of work as needed. So a shift here and there. Yeah.

[Lyndon Cormack]

All right. And you have, you're working long shifts and you're like, this bra isn't working for me. I'm gonna make my own. I mean, this is a classic entrepreneur story.

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Yeah.

[Lyndon Cormack]

I'm gonna solve my own problem. So you literally sewed your own. And what was, you know, just full disclosure here. I'm not super familiar with the inner workings of bras, but what was different about. About the one that you made?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Yeah. So what makes our bras difference is we put the rings and sliders in the front instead of the back. It's lined with a super soft material called modal. So it's just super soft against the skin, and it's more supportive than a bralette and a little not as tight as a sports bra. So I know you guys probably don't wear bras, but it's kind of a big deal. For 12 hours, a bralette just doesn't feel good. And after a sports bra for 12 hours, it's just too tight.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Tight. And are there wires in the bra?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

No wires.

[Lyndon Cormack]

No wires. Okay, so wire. Totally wireless. Cool.

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Correct.

[Lyndon Cormack]

All right, so you started and when did you start this?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Four years ago. We're about to just wrap up. Year four.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Nice. Amazing. It's so cool. How many Covid era businesses were getting on the showdown? And I remember during COVID saying, we are going to be talking to so many Covid era businesses in like three, four years. And it's happening. It's amazing. You were basically started out as a bra business. And is it still. Is this mainly what you. You guys make and sell?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

We've really expanded our product line, so bras were kind of our win win. And then we brought on an oversized sweatshirt that we call a tunic. So the bras and tunics are bestsellers for us. And then we kind of keep dabbling in other products just to test other things. So we have rain pants and loungewear. We try to listen to our customers and hear what they want to see.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And are you selling mostly direct to consumer or are you selling in shops in Anchorage? Where are your sales channels?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Yeah, we're like a third. Third. Third is what I like to say. So we're a third through our website, a third in person markets, and then a third wholesale. So we're in REI in Anchorage and REI in Fairbanks, and then we're in a couple of popular local stores here, Dos Manos and Hotel Alyeska.

[Lyndon Cormack]

And is most. So most of your sales are coming from Alaska within Alaska?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Correct. I'm hoping to hit 300,000 this year in revenue. We have, I would say maybe we're like 10 to 15% out of state.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Cool. All right, Virginia, what's your question that you have for us today?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Yeah, so my question is this. 2024 was a huge year for us in building local wholesale partnerships. We tried to expand that out of state with not much luck. So we did a lot of cold calling, a lot of emailing. Hey, we'll send you samples. And it was just kind of cricket markets. So as we're moving into 2025, we're debating about Trying to attend trade shows to see if we could get in front of buyers that way. But my concerns are the cost and time, especially traveling from Alaska to get to a trade show. Is it really going to put us in front of the right people?

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah. A lot to think about. Linden, I want to bring you in here. So, yeah. What are your thoughts about? I mean, I love the story. You know, nurse has this problem, solves her problem, and brings it to $300,000 in sales.

Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. Virginia, nice to meet you and congratulations on your. On your early success. So when you were speaking initially, like, my mind was going, this is designed by a nurse for nurses. And I just did a quick Google search and there's 3.4 million female nurses in the United States alone. And I go, well, that's a pretty nice market size. Even if it's 1%, 10% of those 3.4 million. That's a lot. That's a lot of people. And remember, this is just quick scanning, but as I'm going through your site, your story is clearly about being a nurse and the problem you're trying to fix. It's good for the 12 hour shift. Right? I mean, I think you have that, but I also see a whole bunch of Alaska, which a. I agree. A good point of differentiation. And, you know, we're a brand from Vancouver, Canada, so, you know, Vancouver is a part of our unique identity. And although we're not overtly Vancouver, I mean, we sell all over the world. Vancouver's home. And it does play into the sensibilities of our brand, and we're very proud of that. But when I'm hearing you talk and I'm hearing the story, I hear that it's designed by a nurse for nurses. That's the thing. That's the. It's catching me. Right. And I feel like the opportunity is selling to more nurses.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting idea. I want to. I'm curious, Virginia. I am sure there are bra brands out there that specifically target or are marketed to nurses, but is there a. Would there be a reluctance to do that? I mean, would you be concerned about being seen as a sort of a nurse focused brand?

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

No. And that's actually a great question. So when we first started the brand, my goal, my business goal was to sell our bras and underwear in every single scrub shop across America. So we dove hard into that. Dove hard into the nursing story. I went to my very first trade show that was a scrub trade show and didn't have Much luck. So I think that was. Must have been three years ago we did that. And the vibe and the comments that kept getting made was they were like, there's no way. There's no way I'm going to sell bras and underwear in my scrub shop. Like, this just isn't not aligned. And I will say it felt a little bit like the old old boys club because they kept saying, well, we want to see something new. And I'm like, well, this is new. Like, you're not selling this kind of stuff. And it's like all in one. Right. A nurse is going to walk in, they're going to buy their underwear, their bra, their scrub top, their scrub bottom, their socks, their shoes, their stethoscope, and walk out. Like, it just felt like an all in one package. So that was when I kind of pulled back from that story a little bit because I just felt it wasn't really well received in that way.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Yeah, understood. When I think about this and you think about uniform packages and you feel, you know, wellness programs, like, is there nursing associations that you're a part of that you're able to speak directly, you know, as a nurse to nurses, that could help you spread your story because it feels like it's a bit of a wellness story as well.

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Well, right. And that is actually something we haven't tapped into. And I mostly have stayed away because of the cost, but there are tons of different nursing organizations out there that have a lot of journals, so I could pay for some paid, like printed advertising in a journal article or on their website. It's just always surprising, even for nursing, like, how expensive they are. So that is something I have not tapped into to.

[Lyndon Cormack]

You mentioned trade shows, and I'm curious. I mean, you were reluctant to go to them in part because they're expensive, but at the same time, I mean, you're talking about trying to break into wholesale. And it seems to me that that's an investment worth making, even if it's challenging. Even if it has been challenging because everyone's there.

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Yes. I mean, that was it. We did a lot of cold calling and emailing and hey, you know, we'll send you samples. Yeah, especially the tunics. They're so soft. It's like you just have to touch it. But not like one store wanted a sample and we must have called well over 100 different places.

[Lyndon Cormack]

I think Guy's right. I mean, Herschel's business, it was started in a different time. We launched to retail in July of 2010. But our whole strategy was definitely going to trade shows. And it's where people congregate. It's where people after the trade show have drinks at the bar, if they drink or dinners, there's conferences around there. There's thought leaders in the space that usually you can go for extracurricular knowledge about what's going on in the space. There's oftentimes vendors are there with new materials, new technology. They oftentimes, if everybody's there, the manufacturer's there, they show up as well. And I feel like it's coming back from some of the feedback you said from the trade shows, like, oh, we're looking for what's new. And you're like, we are new, look at us. But it's like, how do you even up your game a little bit more to when you show up at a trade show? People are like, oh, wow, what's this? The booth, the quality of the merchandise. So like people are intrigued before you're even telling your very personal story about a problem you solved and how you want to solve this for, you know, surviving the 12 hour shift. You know, again, I still love the nurse angle, especially at these kind of trade shows, obviously. But then your point of difference, since you're, you know, where I see the Alaska part come in, is like, we're really proud to be from Alaska and Anchorage in particular, where you're based.

Yeah, 100% agree. I do think it's worthwhile making the investment and doing that kind of travel because you've got a sustainable business here. You've got, you're getting, you know, regular steady orders in Alaska, but you're looking to expand outside of Alaska. You're looking to get customers in the lower 48. So it seems to me that that's really where you want to be. You want to go to those places and you want to talk to those retailers.

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Right.

[Lyndon Cormack]

The brand is called Swoop. Virginia Peterson, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.

[Virginia Lynn Peterson]

Thank you.

[Lyndon Cormack]

Thanks, Virginia.

Great having you. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, it's like a fine line, right, because it's an Alaska brand, just like you're a Vancouver brand. But it's not the central part of your identity. It's a universal. Herschel is right. It's universal. Anybod, you can be in London or wherever and use it and wear it. But there's something about using Alaska effectively that could be interesting, especially around her story.

I mean, I'm sure we didn't ask Virginia this point blank, but I could imagine she's done a lot of research on figs. That brand obviously is doing incredibly well in relation to scrubs and having a point of differentiation. And there's something there. I would say Alaska's probably. I would move it down to a secondary or a third story and figure out what the story one and story two are and then have that as the foundation or background for it, for sure.

Lyndon, I want to, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question that I've been asking all the founders come on the show, which is if you could go back to, you know, 2008, nine, when you and Jamie started the brand, what piece of advice might have been helpful for you that would have maybe, I don't know, ease things a little bit or just made your life a little bit easier at the time?

Well, you know, I think that the scars that we have, the learning experiences that we underwent, ultimately built great character. And I love the failures we had as much as I love the wins because they taught us a lot. And when we did something that didn't work or when something came in not as expected, we worked extra hard to get it right the next time. And. And so I think that embracing failures, in embracing these struggles are something that I would probably tell that version of myself as we were starting, that it's part of the journey and it's going to make us better for it in the end. And I love that.

It's great advice. That's great advice. That's Lyndon Cormack, co founder of Herschel Supply Company. Lyndon, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

It's been a pleasure and good luck to all the young entrepreneurs who are having their new ideas brought to life. It's an exciting time indeed.

And by the way, if you haven't heard Lyndon's original episode of How I Built this, you've got to go back and check it out. It's so good. We'll put a link in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. Interview.

Jamie and I promised ourselves that we would be together for the first time. We opened our first samples. We met in the outskirts of Calgary. It was a bit Mafioso style, where the cars rolled in, trunks open, box pulled up, box cutter open. Jamie sliced the box open and we literally opened up the box and saw our first samples. And to be very honest, they were pretty disappointing.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there and we'll put all this in the podcast Podcast Description as well. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Carla estevez, Casey Herman, J.C. howard, Chris Masini, Sam Paulson, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Narrator]

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