← How I Built This with Guy Raz
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- [00:00]
Guy Raz
Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. If you've started your own business, you know just how many challenges there are, big and small. I mean, look at how I built this building. This show came with a lot of trials, late nights, very, very early mornings. But even though there were challenges getting started, there is something that makes setting up a new business easier. Getting connected with AT&T business it doesn't matter what your business is dealing with, AT&T business helps to make it much, much easier. And that's the point of a provider in the first place. Making building your dream easier. Wake up to the power of att business@business.att.com that's business.att.com if you're running a small business, you know there's nothing small about it. Running a new business is all consuming. Every day there are new decisions, new problems to solve, and new challenges to face. But knowing you have the right tools can give you a ton of comfort. And that's why I really like Shopify. Shopify's Point of Sale system is a unified command center for your retail business. It brings together in store and online operations across up to one locations. Get all the big stuff for your small business right with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.combilt go to shopify.combuilt shopify.combilt running a business is hard work.
- [01:50]
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- [02:20]
Guy Raz
Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with and you can also send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can up for free@guyraz.com or on substack and we'll put all of this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is May Shue, founder of Chesapeake Bay Candle and Bloom. May, welcome back to the show.
- [03:18]
May Xu
Thank you Guy. It's so good to be back.
- [03:20]
Guy Raz
It's great having you. So you were first on the show way back in 2017. You told us about how you came from China to the US after being trained as a diplomat and then you wound up starting a candle company, Chesapeake Bay Bay Candle, and you actually sold that company for $75 million to Newell Brands, which also owns Yankee Candle. It's an amazing story. If you guys haven't heard it, we will put a link to it in the podcast description. Super inspiring story. Since then, May, you've written a book, you started a boutique that sold products from women founders and now your latest homegood venture is another candle brand called Bloom. So tell me about it.
- [04:01]
May Xu
Well, actually I want to say it's more wellness brand. As you know, I sold the business because I had breast cancer in 2016 and during my recovery I really found the gap that is there in front of me that I never see, which is the way that people use fragrance candles to bring back some of the normalcy. And then of course what happened during COVID is that more and more people work from home, they really on top of each other. In my household we have six of us, four kids going on zoom meetings and my husband and I try to find our own niche of a place to work. And having some fragrances around you, it's almost like a territorial thing. You know, I burn my fragrance. My husband started using candles too and I started to see that there is a lot of a demand just to be able to practice self care during that time with fragrance. So I launched Bloom really to address that blank space in my view that connect what we know about sense of smell with well being awesome.
- [05:17]
Guy Raz
May. I know, I remember when you came on the show we talked about how early on sort of, you know, back before you were designing your own candles right when you were still importing them from China, there was a point where the sales really dropped and you'd started really hot. But then the demand went away and you were Worried. Tell me, how did you come back from that? Right. What kind of advice would you give to entrepreneurs who are trying to recover from a dip in sales?
- [05:47]
May Xu
So when I started the candle business back in 1994, it was a very what I would call novelty craft candle. They have a lot of designs on the outside. They are called glow candle with Christmas designs. So it went extremely well. Like hotcake during holiday time. But after holiday, who wants to buy a Christmas looking candle? Then I really went back to the marketplace and just do my research. I realized I'm one of the few brands that actually focus on non fragrance candles. And fragrance is what drives consumption. It makes that connection with consumers so fast, so strongly that they go back to buy more and more. So that's the discovery, the aha moment. I would say I was very good at always mixing different fragrances that no one's doing. So that's the beginning of a whole new surge of sales.
- [06:45]
Guy Raz
That's awesome. You know, May, I know that times obviously have changed since when, you know, since when you first founded Chesapeake Bay Candle and now with your new brand Bloom, you seem to be focusing on direct to consumer. How do you think about picking a sales channel in 2025?
- [07:04]
May Xu
That's such an interesting question. Guy. I'm sure you have noticed that people are not going shopping in person, right? It's.
- [07:12]
Guy Raz
It depends a little bit. In certain places they are, but in other places they're not.
- [07:17]
May Xu
Correct. And yet even in certain places, we're talking about in New York where people are going there to shop. Even in New York, I noticed, Guy, that small boutiques are doing much better than department stores. And that's why you are seeing the consolidation on a very high end of luxury department stores. I think every brand needs to think in multiple channel of distribution. It's the way that businesses are carried now.
- [07:51]
Guy Raz
Yeah. All right, May, are you ready for our first caller?
- [07:55]
May Xu
Yes, I'm waiting to be hearing from them.
- [07:58]
Guy Raz
All right, we're excited. All right, let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just one line, one brief line about your business, please.
- [08:07]
Lindsay Gallas
Hi Guy.
- [08:07]
Caller
Hi, May. Lovely to meet both of you. And May, can I just say your candles are everything.
- [08:12]
May Xu
Thank you.
- [08:13]
Caller
My name is Sasha Milstein. I'm originally from Seattle, but I now call Brooklyn home. And I am the founder of Aunt Ethel's Pot Pies. So we make gourmet frozen pot pies with a flaky, buttery croissant like crust that's accompanied with a rich, creamy filling. Big chunks of chicken and garden fresh veggies.
- [08:32]
Guy Raz
Got it. Nice. Well, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. I remember as a child, I don't even know if they exist anymore. They must. Swanson pot pies. And they were. You'd throw it in the microwave or whatever and you'd get a soggy crust and, you know, or it might take like an hour in the oven. So basically what you've done is you've separated the pie and the pot, the stuff in there. And so you heat them separately.
- [08:58]
Caller
Yeah. So basically all you do is remove it from the freezer, you just pop the crust in the toaster, pop the filling in the microwave, and then marry the two together and they live happily ever after.
- [09:09]
Guy Raz
I got you. So you toast the crust part. So you had a crispy crust. And then you tell me how the idea came about.
- [09:16]
Caller
Yeah. So about 10 years ago, my aunt, Aunt Ethel, who runs a very successful catering company in New York City, came to me with the existential question that I think a lot of small businesses have, which is, you know, they've been successful year in, year out, but how do they exit? How do they retire? So at the time, I really didn't have an answer. So fast forward five years ago, I'm traveling through Vietnam with my family and. And of course, I'm listening to how I built this. About a woman.
- [09:45]
Guy Raz
Great.
- [09:48]
Caller
About a woman who started a chicken salad company.
- [09:50]
Guy Raz
And I'm listening to Stacy Brown, Chicken salad chick.
- [09:54]
Caller
Exactly.
- [09:54]
May Xu
I remember everyone.
- [09:57]
Caller
So later on that night, over Tamarantini's watching the sunset on the beaches of Hoi An, I just looked at my aunt and I said, you know, what's one of your most crave worthy products? And of course, immediately she responded, her chicken pot pie. And I thought about it for a second and realized the chicken pot pie is America's sweetheart dish. Doesn't matter if you're rich, poor, liberal, Republican, Everybody loves a pot pie. So right there and then I said, okay, I have an idea. What if we took this product, we commercialized it, we scaled it, and eventually exited. And at that point, that's where the idea came along.
- [10:36]
Guy Raz
Wow. Awesome. Okay, so that was in 2020. Tell me a little bit about how the business is right now. Are you guys. Have you cracked half a million dollars in sales?
- [10:45]
Caller
So we technically launched last year, last fall, into over a hundred Wegmans locations. We then went on QVC. We aired and sold out of 8,000 units in six minutes. And we just hit the quarter of a million dollar mark.
- [11:01]
Guy Raz
Nice. Congrats. Okay, awesome. So now before we get into the business, what's your question? What are you trying to solve?
- [11:08]
Caller
Yeah. So I'm five years into building this company, and while we've built something with a strong foundation and real traction, being a solopreneur means there are lots of blind spots that you just can't fill on your own. So for me, one of the biggest is production and manufacturing. I know how to build a brand, sell a product, but scaling the operational side, that's where I need help. So I'd really like to find a co founder who can balance out those blind spots and take us to the next level. May I know that you had a business partner who also happened to be your husband? And while I'm not looking to get married just to find a co founder, what are some meaningful ways to find the right one?
- [11:43]
Guy Raz
Great question, Meishu.
- [11:45]
May Xu
I just want to declare that we got a divorce because of that. So be careful.
- [11:50]
Guy Raz
That was Mei's first husband. Yeah.
- [11:52]
May Xu
Yes. So be careful. What?
- [11:54]
Caller
He's gonna remove my foot out of my mouth.
- [11:55]
May Xu
Yeah. It is very hard to work with your spouse in a business that is so intense. So I suggest you look elsewhere. There are ways that I feel there are so many more smaller communities, particularly in Brooklyn. I personally can connect you to angel groups that they invest in. Startups particularly that are already proven with concept. A lot of women's group these days are trying to support minority women. Major companies, guy like Goldman Sachs, they have launched which is to found companies that will invest in women owned businesses.
- [12:35]
Guy Raz
Sasha, let me ask you a question. You're in Brooklyn, is that right? Is it where you're based?
- [12:40]
Caller
Right.
- [12:42]
Guy Raz
Okay. And have you. I mean, Brooklyn is a, you know, it's a huge incubator of all kinds of food products, ideas, businesses. I'm sure there are, you know, some of these commissary kitchens and, and food groups there. I mean, I know my brother is in San Diego. He's in charge of a nonprofit for food businesses and they meet regularly and have events. Do you go to any of those things?
- [13:10]
Caller
That is my entire social life. That's all I do every day.
- [13:15]
Guy Raz
Yeah. And in those groups, no luck so far.
- [13:19]
Caller
So I did actually come across a co founder with Y Combinator that I'm currently dating or interviewing rather.
- [13:29]
Guy Raz
This person is at Y Combinator now.
- [13:31]
Caller
They came through the Y Combinator platform.
- [13:34]
Guy Raz
Okay.
- [13:35]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah.
- [13:35]
Caller
And it's sort of like a. It's kind of like a dating platform where you can Kind of swipe on other co founders to see if it's a good fit. And so one of the things I was looking for was somebody who was more tech focused just because I feel like the cpg, the consumer packaged goods space is changing so rapidly and in order to get a leg up and, and compete, doing that with technology is probably the best strategy. And also just to give you a little bit of background about myself, I was a former angel investor with 37 angels, which is a female founded organization and we did invest in women companies. So I'm very supportive of that.
- [14:15]
Guy Raz
I think the question may isn't so much how does Sasha find a co founder, but who is that co founder, what kind of person?
- [14:24]
May Xu
Right. And that's why I'm trying to understand Sasha. You are not looking to have investors.
- [14:31]
Caller
We are actually gearing up for our first round. As you know, the CPG business is very capital intensive and while we've bootstrapped and taken out debt, we're finally ready to start using other people's money.
- [14:46]
May Xu
So the whole idea is as a business model is first you want to see a where's the exit? Right. How big do you want to build this business? And then once you built to that scale, are you exiting, are you going public or are you going to be still managing the business while someone else owns the majority? So when you figure out all these paths, one of the things that many of the investors can do is to bring the additional talent for you. That's why I'm not sure looking for a partner is exactly the right thing. Particularly, particularly if you could consider hiring your first major higher level high.
- [15:31]
Guy Raz
Right, like a brand manager.
- [15:33]
May Xu
Right, like a brand manager or a coo. It seems to be a coo. That may help because you want someone to really scale the business that understand where to source, where to finish, even marketing and manufacturing, you know, so you would be the brand. I mean the, the possibility I'm thinking about it is endless with vegetarian versions and different ethnicity versions. So I think that probably could be easier for you if you're not looking for a partner.
- [16:04]
Guy Raz
You know, I think that's a really interesting idea. Rather than looking for sort of a full equity partner, I mean finding, you know, a brand manager or you know, a COO or call them whatever you want and where they would get some equity, they'd have some skin in the game and incentive to help you build it. But somebody who is an operator in that sense that has the skills or the sort of the desire, the interest in doing the things that are less interesting to you. I mean, one of the things that I think I'm not saying anything to you that others haven't said down the line, you're gonna need more products. Right. You've got three flavors. Now. I see chicken and Coqavan and mushroom. It's lentil, I guess. I think about three flavors. Is that right?
- [16:45]
Caller
Yep, three flavors.
- [16:47]
Guy Raz
But down the road, you're going to want to see what else you can do in the frozen ready to eat meal space. Right. It's not just gonna be pot pies. You're gonna be using the technology that you developed to do other things. You know, maybe there's gonna be pasta dishes or rice dishes or other things in there down the road. And so you wanna find somebody who might have some limited CPG experience but is still young or new enough where they're not as expensive and may be willing to take a risk on a smaller brand and an upstart brand like yours.
- [17:22]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah.
- [17:22]
Caller
So you guys are definitely echoing a lot of the thoughts that we've been having over the last few years. We trademarked the company as Aunt Ethel's because we wanted to establish ourselves as a trustworthy pot pie company. But eventually we do want to scale into a frozen comfort food brand. And I like what May had to say about the international aspect. So given the fact that our product is two part, you can really mix and match. As far as, you know, the pot pie is kind of just like a vessel. It's one of the most internationally recognized products in the sense that India has a samosa, Asia has dumplings, Argentina has an empanada. So it's really just Cornish pasties, Right? Exactly. So we've thought about taking that two part and putting some type of crunch in the top along with some type of filling in the bottom, like wonton chips with teriyaki chicken or potato sticks with a shepherd's pie. So we're right on the same page as you guys.
- [18:21]
Guy Raz
Yeah. And May, in terms of. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. And then in terms of finding that person, I mean, it's really. It's just a matter of reaching out. Right. To absolutely everybody, you know, for ideas. It's like the hit rate on that is gonna be, you know, might be 1 or 2%, but the more people you reach out to, the more you sort of widen that net.
- [18:45]
May Xu
And now with Guy, you're going to have so many people knocking on the doors. That is going to be a problem. I think the question, Sasha, I want to actually remind you is you really need to do some analysis. What is your strength? What is your weaknesses? What do you want to complement to you? Because you don't want another person exactly like you. You need to have that analysis in front of you so that when people come knocking on your doors or you are meeting them, you have a very clear vision who's going to run what. It would be very painful. Sometimes I remember people telling me hiring very slowly and firing really quickly because I would say thinking really hard about what you want is very helpful.
- [19:34]
Guy Raz
That's a great idea. Yeah, I think that's very sound advice. The brand is called Aunt Ethel's Pot Pies. Sasha Milstein, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.
- [19:43]
May Xu
I'll look for it.
- [19:45]
Caller
Thanks to both of you.
- [19:46]
Guy Raz
Thank you.
- [19:47]
Lindsay Gallas
Appreciate it.
- [19:49]
Guy Raz
Yeah, it's a cool idea. I mean, you know, and, and again, rightfully so. Right. It's like you can do a bunch of different things and, and, and thinking about as a frozen foods brand. Right?
- [19:59]
May Xu
Yes.
- [20:00]
Guy Raz
She's got a cool brand, cool idea. And we'll see how she, she builds it out. All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. Do you ever feel overwhelmed by how many options there are these days? Whether you're on vacation and trying to see all the sights or you're at a restaurant with a huge menu, finding something that's just right can sometimes feel impossible. The same applies if you're a business owner who's hiring. It can be overwhelming to have too many candidates to sort through, but you're in luck. ZipRecruiter now gives you the power to proactively find and connect with the best ones quickly. How? Through their innovative resume database. And right now, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com Bilt.com ZipRecruiter's resume database uses advanced filtering to quickly show you the best candidates for your roles. And if you see a candidate you're really interested in, you can get their contact info instantly. Skip the candidate overload. Instead, streamline your hiring with ZipRecruiter. See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address, ziprecruiter.combilt right now to try it for free. Again, that's ziprecruiter.combilt ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire As a founder, you're moving fast toward product market. Fit your next round or your first big enterprise deal. But with AI accelerating how quickly startups build and ship, security expectations are higher earlier than ever. Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or if you wait too long, stall it with deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast moving teams. Vanta gets you audit ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infrastructure and customers evolve. Fast growing startups like LangChain, Rider and Cursor trusted Vanta to build a scalable foundation from the start. I love that over 10,000 companies, from startups to huge enterprises trust Vanta because it makes me trust them. Go to vanta.combilt to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta. That's V a n t a dot com built to save $1,000 for a.
- [22:53]
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- [23:29]
Guy Raz
Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Mei Xu, founder of Chesapeake Bay Candle and Bloom and we are taking your call. So let's bring in our next caller. Hello.
- [23:40]
Tara
Hello, I'm Tara and I'm calling in from Dubai. I'm the co founder of Dry Dolly, a company rethinking towel apparel so it's not just functional, but stylish. Whether you're fresh from the shower, the swim or the gym, Dry Dolly takes you from wet to dressed in seconds and still looking fabulous.
- [23:57]
Guy Raz
All right Tara, thanks for calling in Dry Dolly. Just help me understand what this is. Apparel that you wear out of the shower.
- [24:05]
Tara
Yes. So basically I used to have a really rubbish towel dress and I always wondered why there was nothing any better than it on the market. I did lots of research. Like 10 years I tried to replace this rubbish towel dress and I just thought there's got to be something that's that you can put on after a shower when you're not ready to get dressed that you can still cool down in, that you can use as a towel, that can look amazing and that you can answer the door without scaring the UPS man and you're good to go. So that's what we set about doing.
- [24:38]
Guy Raz
I gotcha. And so the bathrobe does not, does not fit those criteria.
- [24:43]
Tara
No. Because it has no bust support, it's too hot and heavy. When you're blow drying your hair, you often get makeup on the collar and it's just most time it just doesn't fit you. But with a dry dolly, it's designed in a way that's got built in support and you can just step into it, tie it and you're literally good to go.
- [25:06]
Guy Raz
Got it. All right. So it's a dress basically made out of towel material.
- [25:10]
Tara
Yes. But a very, very unique towel material. It took me a long time. I knew exactly what I was looking for and it took me a long time to source it. It's lightweight, but to get the right kind of style.
- [25:23]
Guy Raz
Gotcha. And you're based in Dubai, you said?
- [25:25]
Tara
I'm based in Dubai. We have dry dolly in the UK as well as my sister is running that operation from there.
- [25:32]
Guy Raz
And what, and is sold direct to consumer?
- [25:35]
Tara
Yes, at the moment. So we only had the idea late 2023. I'm not from fashion background, I'm not from manufacturing, but we just thought that the whole towel apparel needed a complete shake up.
- [25:49]
Guy Raz
So the question is, do enough people. I'm assuming right now you're aiming most of this towards women, because dresses have this problem where they get out of the shower, they want to put on makeup, but a bathrobe or a towel isn't good enough. Before we dive in a bit more, what's your question for us?
- [26:06]
Tara
My question is because what we realised when we were doing all the testing and we were handing them out, that our market is much more than what I initially thought. I initially thought it would just be people like me who after a run are not ready to get dressed after a shower. You need to cool down. I thought it'd be perfect for sports. When you're in a gym changing room and you don't want to struggle with the towel. But when we started giving it out, we realized that my pregnant friends loved it because it's a line and it's toweling and they could breastfeed. So my question is, should we lean into like the B2B or, you know, we'll hunker down on the D2C.
- [26:49]
Guy Raz
All right, thank you so Much go direct to consumer or go retail or wholesale or other possibilities. Mei Xu, I want to bring you in on dry dolly.
- [27:01]
May Xu
Well, it sounds like one of those innovations that really come out of your own needs. And I see a lot of women designing product and starting business because of that. If you have conviction, if you already see good results, I would say go for it. I actually talked to guy about wholesale versus D2C. I think the landscape has really changed. I don't think you can go one without the other. So my answer would be you have to go to trade shows in England and you have to go to trade shows in Arab countries and see who you can partner with and you can scale but without shutting down your own D2C operation.
- [27:45]
Guy Raz
Yeah. I'm curious, Tara, are you sort of. You're in the UK and Dubai as well and so you're still early days, but where are you seeing more traction?
- [27:55]
Tara
Probably equally in both. What we didn't anticipate is that they're very different markets. So for the UK it's more for the home and now they think of it as a holiday kind of dress that you would take to the beach. So it's a whole re education because it's not a fashion brand, it happens to be nice, but it's a functional dry in brand and in Dubai you have the all year round market. And also we have a more modest range as well for the more people who want to be covered a little bit extra.
- [28:25]
Guy Raz
Have you approached any hotels at all about this?
- [28:28]
Tara
Yes. So I've been going to a lot of networking, doing a lot of hospitality events and been speaking to three hotels actually. So it's an education. They're like, oh, yes. But hotels are very slow to change.
- [28:43]
Lindsay Gallas
Yes.
- [28:44]
Tara
You know, to think that there's something new when you've had the same old towels, apparel, you know, the big giant towels on the head, not lovely light towels or something. That was for them. A dry dolly could move from the hotel room right down to the pool. People would use it, you could brand it. So it's something that they would take home with your branding. It's just much more functional.
- [29:09]
Guy Raz
Yeah. May, what are your. What do you touch?
- [29:12]
May Xu
I think one of the things that I didn't ask is the price point. I would very much like to know because, Tara, you need to protect that design. And that would be my first advice. No matter what you do, get it patented first if you can. Yes. So that's good. The second thing is I feel that it's one of the first thing come to mind, you know, the equivalent of the QVCs in UK, because it seems to be a very demonstrable product and they love that kind of product. Have you ever go to qvc London or qk?
- [29:50]
Tara
No. That's something that I've never thought of. That's brilliant. Thank you.
- [29:55]
May Xu
Think about that. Because they need product that is not easy to find. Right. Novelty product. People watch them at 9pm Usually these people, they like to be surprised. They like to look for unique items. It is one of the item. Also, I feel you should network with influencers again. They have a large following. They're constantly looking for new ideas. They could go viral very quickly.
- [30:22]
Tara
Yeah, it's something that we have looked at and we've given it away to like friends who have got. You know, everyone seems to know an influencer these days, but we haven't actually paid big money. That's the. You know, there's the other issue of where do we spend our marketing? And we're figuring that out at the moment as we go.
- [30:40]
Guy Raz
I mean, one of the things that I think you really want to consider, and you're probably probably doing a version of this, which is to show how people are using it. Because on the website right now it shows it looks like somebody's in their bathroom after the shower. But you mentioned people using it at the beach, which is really interesting. That makes a lot of sense. You go to the beach and you're wearing a swimsuit, but then you put that over it and you can protect yourself from the sun and you get dry. So that could be an interesting way to kind of market it if you wanted to sort of play around with some social media marketing. Pictures, photographs, videos of how people are using it.
- [31:20]
Tara
Yeah, because it's so much easier to remove swimwear under it than one of those giant ponchos or a towel. I mean, you can remove swimwear in an instant.
- [31:29]
Guy Raz
So show that. So go out and make those videos and show that. That could be a really interesting way to do it. I think that you're gonna have to put some dollars in marketing for D2C. Right. Because people aren't gonna be aware of it unless they're. They get some kind of targeted ads or revenue share.
- [31:47]
May Xu
You can do some revenue share with influencers. So you don't pay them up front, but they get a percentage. I don't think one can try only one channel these days. We really are in an economy where you need to meet people where they shop, and people shop everywhere. They shop on TikTok. They Shop on Instagram, they shop in store. They, they like what they see in a hotel. So even a startup has to think about these different options.
- [32:16]
Tara
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
- [32:18]
Guy Raz
Yeah. Tara, thank you for calling in. The brand is called Dry Dolly. Good luck. Thanks so much.
- [32:23]
Tara
Thank you so much, Guy.
- [32:25]
Guy Raz
All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Foreign welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking calls with May Shue, the founder of Chesapeake Bay Candles and Bloom. And we are taking your calls. Hello, caller. Welcome to the show.
- [32:57]
Lindsay Gallas
Hi, my name is Lindsay Gallas. I'm calling from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and, and I'm a co founder of Math Medic. We're an online high school math curriculum company that provides teachers with instructional resources, including our free lesson plans for every day of the year. And then also we have optional supplemental resources for purchase.
- [33:16]
Guy Raz
Cool. Welcome to the show, Lindsay. Thank you for calling. So you make daily lesson plans for high school math teachers, basically, correct?
- [33:24]
Lindsay Gallas
Yes.
- [33:25]
Guy Raz
And they're totally free?
- [33:28]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah. So all of our lessons are free. To support all that free work, we do offer supplemental resources. So there are other things that we offer that are available for purchase and that helps us to be able to give all our lessons for free to teachers everywhere.
- [33:44]
Guy Raz
Are you a former math teacher yourself or a current math teacher?
- [33:47]
Lindsay Gallas
Yes, I'm a former math teacher. I've been doing this now for four years full time. But we started the company about 10 years ago ago.
- [33:55]
Guy Raz
It's cool. So, and basically any high school math going from algebra to calculus.
- [34:00]
Lindsay Gallas
Yes. So we have a lesson plan for every single day for algebra. One is generally where most high school math starts and it goes up through AP calculus. So we also have all of the AP math courses.
- [34:11]
Guy Raz
That's awesome. As having two high schoolers right now helping them through math. It's super cool. But I wonder, I mean, so you started this business. When did you start it, by the way?
- [34:24]
Lindsay Gallas
In 2015.
- [34:24]
Guy Raz
2015. Okay. And the idea was, I'm assuming when you were a teacher, you know, to have a resource where you basically got a lesson plan every day. I mean, you're, you're, you're kind of doing the work for the teachers in a sense.
- [34:37]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah. So we're supporting the teachers for sure. So, you know, when we first started this, my co founder and I, we were both high school math teachers and doing exactly like what you're talking about where trying to figure out every single day, what are we gonna do in class tomorrow, how are we gonna work with our students? And we were looking online and really just cobbling resources together from all over. We were trying to find lessons and practice problems, but we couldn't find a comprehensive set of lessons that would help us for every single day. We were just sort of making this mishmash. And so we rather naively thought like, why don't we make those lessons? So we started a website and just started sharing our lessons out. And it was just word of mouth, teachers sharing it with other teachers. And that kind of takes us to today to where now we have lessons for again, all the high school math courses. And it's like a free user type membership. We currently have about 100,000 teachers across the US and across the world really who are using our lessons in their class. So.
- [35:41]
Guy Raz
All right, let's talk a little bit about your business model for a moment. And you mentioned that you offer a paid version too. But if you're getting all these free lessons, what incentive is there to buy anything?
- [35:56]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah, so we are committed to lessons being free forever. It is very, very important to us that all teachers, no matter what access to resources they have, have access to high quality materials. But then we offer assessment packages, so homework, quizzes, tests. So you know, if you teach one of our lessons, you can pull a homework assignment. But additionally it's more of a question bank and a test creator. So in addition to having pre made assessments, then also teachers can create their own assessments. And that really just came out of teachers in our community emailing us the ones who are using the lessons and saying, you know, like, these are great, I love it in my classroom. What do I do for homework? How do I make a test? And so it was just out of the need from the teacher community.
- [36:43]
Guy Raz
And what, what, give me a sense of what your revenue is. What it was last year, for example.
- [36:48]
Lindsay Gallas
Last year we did 2.1 million.
- [36:51]
Guy Raz
Okay, and how many employees do you have?
- [36:53]
Lindsay Gallas
And there are, we have seven employees.
- [36:56]
Guy Raz
That's it. No other employees. So your costs are fairly low.
- [36:59]
Lindsay Gallas
We do use contractors a lot. So everyone who works on our content are all either current or former high school math teachers.
- [37:07]
Guy Raz
Got it.
- [37:08]
Lindsay Gallas
So that's, you know, the other thing is that what we put out there that is made, developed, used, iterated in the classroom.
- [37:16]
Guy Raz
And with the $2.1 million in revenue, are you a sustainable business? Are you able to Pay everybody a decent amount.
- [37:25]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah, we've been profitable really from day one, essentially. I think at the very beginning we put like $1,500 in and then everything has just been funded by our own growth. And so we. It's super scalable. Our business is great in that, like we make the thing one time and then it can scale really easily. So most of our products, you know, we develop one of our products. We developed it like three years ago and it's just continuing to bring in revenue.
- [37:54]
Guy Raz
But you just buy it once, right? Or.
- [37:57]
Lindsay Gallas
Oh, no, sorry, that it's an annual subscription.
- [38:00]
Guy Raz
I see. Okay.
- [38:01]
Lindsay Gallas
Yep. So it's a every year cost for the teacher.
- [38:04]
Guy Raz
All right, before we dive in, tell me what your question is for us today.
- [38:08]
Lindsay Gallas
Yes. So we think of ourselves as a direct to teacher company. Teachers come to our website and they get media access to these high quality lessons and resources. But because of that, the majority of our sales are from individual teachers. And we know that in order to scale, we need to get whole schools and districts to purchase the materials as their primary curriculum. The reason that's challenging is that funding at that level is traditionally for a textbook. And we are not a textbook. We replace a textbook. And that makes the funding sort of tricky. So my question is, how do we break into a system that was built for textbooks when we're a better digital alternative?
- [38:49]
Guy Raz
All right, tough question answered. I can give you my own experience with this because I also have a kids company. We tried an edtech product. I'll get to that in a moment. Mei Xu, I'd love for you to jump in here with any questions or thoughts for Lindsay.
- [39:05]
May Xu
I thought the same question as you have, Guy, because it seems to be more of a system question versus a business question. But I would like to ask you, have you thought about partnering to those textbook companies, managing a relationship where you charge them so that they could be subcontracting you when they provide textbooks to all the school systems?
- [39:33]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah, it sort of goes against our philosophy with our business and also as teachers, we. As a teacher myself, I saw many shortcomings with traditional textbooks. The process of purchasing them just in the first place is really lengthy and it's confusing. And often the teachers aren't the ones who are making that final purchase. Someone, you know, higher up in the school is. And so what we really wanted to do was to focus on those individual teachers and giving them immediate access so the textbooks, really, honestly, I feel like it's one of the last industries that haven't been substantially disrupted by digitalization they're not being used anymore by students. You know, students bring home a textbook maybe, but. But for the most part, if they have a question, they're not looking it up in a book, they're looking it up online. They're looking up videos and YouTube. And so I really see long term that the textbook companies are on the way out or at least up for a substantial disruption.
- [40:37]
Guy Raz
So a quick, quick story which is I have a kids company called Tinkercast and we make podcasts and books and one of our podcasts called wow in the World. And we actually got funding many years ago to produce an edtech platform. We got funding from a bunch of different grants and the idea was to make this platform available to teachers and also to monetize it. And it's very hard. Right. Edtech platform's really challenging. Teachers don't have a lot of disposable income, very hard to get into school districts. Right. There's a lot of bureaucracy. The RFP system is really challenging. And besides, the fact is that schools just don't have money to spend. You know, they are, they are strapped. And so one of the things that I think we learned from our experience was we really, we did give this away. You know, we gave, and now we give away the product. And so it essentially operates as kind of a nonprofit. That's my question here. I mean, I think that, I think it's really admirable that you're committed to making these lesson plans free for teachers, that it's part of your sort of fundamental kind of moral position. I mean, even if you were to charge a tiny amount, a micro amount, it could create a significant revenue stream. Because, you know, trying to get this into the hands of districts is challenging. One path is to try private schools. But then again, that's what I was going to say, one school to the next. Sorry, go ahead, May.
- [42:03]
May Xu
No, I was thinking or maybe some more progressive school district, you know, that are known to have this type of experiments. I know that private schools, it's easier, but like Guy said, it's one by one. And I was thinking about when you say all the teachers are using it, just the sheer amount seems to be interesting enough that can you advertise for other people for product that are targeting school's children for whatever reason and you generate revenues on your platform by being able to share that among so many audiences.
- [42:44]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah. So very early on we did talk about the possibility of advertising. But maybe to add a little more context to this is honestly, the financials are not the Problem or it's really this red tape that you're talking about, guy. These RFPs I'm very familiar with. It's the actually getting into the school districts because there are so many checkboxes, like things you have to do. And it's just a really interesting. You're right. It's a systematic issue. You know, we're trying to figure out like how do you meet all these criteria when every district and every state's different.
- [43:22]
Guy Raz
Yeah. May, did you want to add anything?
- [43:24]
May Xu
I agree. And I think there are progressive district. I'm wondering if you can go to a trade show. You know, I always know there's a lot of trade shows for every organ educational endeavor and you know, it's just about talking outside of your comfort level. I also want to add. I always want to go with the end game. What is it the vision you have, you and your partner have for this business, the amount of people you want to reach, the amount of impact you need, really helps to build what you need.
- [44:01]
Lindsay Gallas
Yeah, absolutely.
- [44:02]
Guy Raz
Lindsey Gallas. The company's called Mathematic. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in.
- [44:07]
Lindsay Gallas
Thank you so much.
- [44:10]
Guy Raz
Yeah, math was definitely, has definitely been an anxiety inducing. Although, you know, I have to say I'm just so impressed. My kids are much better mathematicians than I was, which is cool. I mean they're, they just have a much more of an aptitude for it. So it's. But it's. Yeah. I mean, it's stressful, especially you know, if you're like me and as a high school kid and it was just really hard, you know, grinding through it.
- [44:34]
May Xu
Yep.
- [44:36]
Guy Raz
May, before I let you go, one quick question for you, which I've asked every guest who's come on, which is now that you have all this experience and perspective, if you go back to when you started in, you know, the candle making business, you give yourself some advice with the perspective you now have. What would have been helpful for you.
- [44:51]
May Xu
To know to go out and fundraise? I did not do any fundraising when I was building my first business and I feel it could have given me a very interesting sort of insight into how to scale. So that would be something I would be telling all the startup companies is don't try to struggle by yourself. There is a community out there that you could try to lean on.
- [45:21]
Guy Raz
Mei, thank you so much for coming back onto the show.
- [45:23]
May Xu
Thank you so much. It's been fun.
- [45:25]
Guy Raz
That's May Shu, founder of Chesapeake Bay Candle and Bloom. And by the way, if you haven't heard the original Chesapeake Bay Candle episode that May was on. Go back and check it out. It's super fun. Incredible story. We'll put a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that episode.
- [45:42]
May Xu
We registered for the New York Gift show, which is the holy grail of trade shows, and we thought that this is going to be the ticket to our success, but we were wrong. It was a complete disaster.
- [45:58]
Guy Raz
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtini Bluey. It was edited by Andrea Bruce and our audio engineer was Kwesi Lee. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Katherine Cipher, Karla estevez, Sam Paulson, J.C. howard, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.
- [47:24]
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