Advice Line with Michael Dubin of Dollar Shave Club

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How I Built This – Advice Line with Michael Dubin of Dollar Shave Club

Host: Guy Raz
Guest: Michael Dubin (Founder, Dollar Shave Club)
Date: October 9, 2025

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Overview of Main Theme

This episode features Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club, joining Guy Raz on the “Advice Line” edition of How I Built This. The focus is on offering practical, real-time advice to entrepreneurs who call in with business challenges. Guy and Michael discuss Dubin’s journey post-Dollar Shave Club, his thoughts on marketing and brand-building in a rapidly evolving ecosystem, and tackle live entrepreneurial dilemmas ranging from food innovation to service experiences and apparel for first responders. The episode balances accessible insights with actionable recommendations, emphasizing the realities and nuances of building businesses in different sectors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Dubin’s Post-DSC Life & Reflections on Viral Marketing

[04:20–09:58]

• New ventures and creative work:
  Michael shares that he’s written a screenplay inspired by his experiences, continues his board/advisory roles, and is pondering new entrepreneurial ideas. He’s keen to “tap that creative side” again.

  • “If the script gods bless it… I’d love to produce it. That would be a super fun thing that I’ve always wanted to do.” (Dubin, [05:23])

• Changes in digital marketing:
  The viral success of DSC’s 2012 launch video is discussed. Michael reflects that today’s web is “exponential” and competition for attention is tougher, though originality and authenticity are still effective.

  • “The biggest difference might be the wave doesn’t last as long as it once did because there’s just so much out there.” (Dubin, [07:35])
  • “You can cut through the noise if it feels authentic and if it strikes a chord in some way... But you have to work so much harder now.” (Dubin, [07:14])

2. Entrepreneurship in Dominated or Saturated Markets

[08:25–09:58]

• On competing with giants (like Gillette):
  Michael admits it’s “probably crazy” to take on entrenched incumbents but insists that's never a reason not to try. He breaks down successful disruption as a mix of “great product, great distribution, and great communication.”
  • “The last great consumer giant disruptor company has not been launched… They will continue to launch all the time.” (Dubin, [09:05])
  • “It’s a pretty boring formula: great product, great distribution, great communication.” (Dubin, [09:17])

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Caller #1: Benita Casbo – Launching a New Middle Eastern Cheese

[10:10–22:24]

• Caller: Benita Casbo, Casbo’s Middle Eastern Kitchen (Syrian cheese)
• Challenge: How to create impactful grassroots and digital (non-social) marketing for a new cheese category.

Key Ideas & Advice

• Focus on consumer education and ease:
  Michael suggests making it as easy as possible for consumers to use the unfamiliar cheese—suggesting pairings and including QR codes for recipe demos.

  • “I’d lower the bar for them, make it really easy... This is gonna slot in really nicely with what you’re already doing.” (Dubin, [15:58])
  • Memorable Moment: Benita’s two-foot cheese pull—visual appeal and product demo potential.

• Guerrilla marketing & brand storytelling:
  Michael floats the idea of a humorous campaign—“everyone knows Syrian cheese is the best”—possibly involving “angry French cheese mascots” upset about the secret being out.

  • “Maybe you have angry French ambassadors… so mad that Syrian cheese—the secret’s finally out.” (Dubin, [17:32])
  • Guy’s addition: Emphasize sampling (especially in NYC), work local press (Eater, Food52), and highlight notable mentions (NYT, restaurant shout-outs).

• Packaging matters:
  Michael offers to review packaging, highlighting the importance of visual shelf appeal.

  • “When you have your packaging, if you wanna shoot me a note on LinkedIn… I’m happy to look at it.” (Dubin, [21:34])

Notable Quotes

• “You’re going to have to sample the hell out of this.” (Raz, [19:36])
• “Maybe there’s a Syrian cheese costume you can build.” (Dubin, [18:08])

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Caller #2: Brandon Davis – Mobile Mini Golf for Events

[25:17–37:14]

• Caller: Brandon Davis, Pars Mobile Mini Golf, Vista, CA
• Challenge: How to maintain client experience and service levels as the business scales and relies more on employees instead of owners.

Key Ideas & Advice

• Creating Ownership & Culture:
  Michael suggests exploring equity pools for key employees or investing in their development—making their time at the company meaningful for their own growth.

  • “How can you play a role in their development… you’re going to leave with A, B, and C skills that will serve you well moving forward.” (Dubin, [29:51])
  • “Every entrepreneur faces [the challenge]: how do I get everybody else to care as much as I do?” (Dubin, [29:04])

• Hiring and training:
  Guy emphasizes hiring for attitude over skill, building a customer service manifesto/brand bible, and leading by example in hospitality.

  • “You’re not in the mini golf business—you’re in the hospitality business.” (Raz, [30:53])
  • “You can teach people how to do this stuff, but you want to look for people who… just love bringing joy.” (Raz, [32:09])

• Feedback and incentives:
  Regular client feedback and employee rewards (gift cards, praise) can reinforce positive service behaviors.

• Marketing expansion ideas:
  Michael suggests considering a permanent miniature golf course in a public venue (botanical garden, themed warehouse) as a marketing tentpole.

  • “Could you build a live mini golf course that acts as a marketing tentpole?” (Dubin, [36:13])

Notable Quotes

• “I think he’s got something. I’d love to go to one of his events.” (Dubin, [37:26])
• “Build a document that says, ‘We’re in the business of creating joy.’” (Raz, [31:23])

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Caller #3: Brea Fleming – Custom Uniforms for Wildland Firefighters

[39:54–55:21]

• Caller: Brea Fleming, Incidental Wildland, Kansas
• Challenge: How to scale her custom wildland firefighter uniform business when demand is more than she can supply and margins are tight.

Key Ideas & Advice

• Focus on scaling supply:
  Michael encourages Brea to hire more staff, find manufacturing partners, or develop a manufacturing partnership, possibly raising investment to do so.

  • “It sounds like you need to raise some money… so you can go out and hire staff or develop a manufacturing partnership.” (Dubin, [45:22])

• Maximize your unique skills as IP:
  Guy counsels Brea that her value is in her designs, not just sewing skills, and that she should focus on growth areas and let others handle production.

  • “The long-term value is in your designs and your credibility.” (Raz, [47:05])

• Consider higher-margin products or raising prices:
  Accessories may be more scalable and profitable; explore B2B sales or retail channels.

• Be open to investment:
  Michael advocates for actively seeking funding, both traditional and potentially mission-driven, given the public-good nature of wildland firefighting.

  • “I think you should really think about raising some money… you have the seedlings of a really kind of big idea here.” (Dubin, [51:05])

• Think big to attract capital:
  Guy recommends broadening the vision to encompass all essential workwear categories, not just firefighting gear, to appeal to larger investors.

  • “How is this going to be the next category killer and disrupt an industry?” (Dubin, [52:53])

• On domestic vs. international manufacturing:
  Guy raises the question of overseas production to lower costs; Brea is open-minded to the idea.

Notable Quotes

• “I’d hate to create, you know, more of a challenge for you, but we’ll absolutely get these outfits on our staff.” (Dubin, [50:39])
• “You have a great story… there’s a natural story here.” (Raz, [53:07])

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Reflections & Closing Insights

[56:26–58:27]

• Personal advice to past self:
  Michael wishes he’d made more space for life outside work and learned to trust team members even in areas he loved.
  • “I would have tried to give myself some advice around… creating more personal time for you and space for other things.” (Dubin, [57:07])
  • “It’s sometimes hard to let go of the things that you love doing, but you have to do that to achieve the right level of scale.” (Dubin, [58:04])

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “So our first investor was a company called Science… They gave us a $100,000 check. Actually, no, they gave us a $100 check by accident first. And I got all the way to the bank.” (Dubin recalling his original episode, [58:41])
• On mascot campaigns: “Maybe there’s a Syrian cheese costume you can build… think of mascots, think of big, visual arresting ideas.” (Dubin, [18:08])
• On letting go: “You want somebody that believes in the mission and believes in the business that you’re creating. That’s how you’re going to get people to stay.” (Dubin, [33:43])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:20] – Michael Dubin’s career/life update and creativity post-DSC
• [07:04] – Evolving digital landscape and viral marketing
• [08:47] – Disrupting big incumbents as a startup
• [10:10] – Benita Casbo: Launching Syrian cheese
• [14:53] – Advice on category education and creative brand campaigns
• [25:17] – Brandon Davis: Scaling mobile mini golf service
• [29:02] – Employee ownership, brand culture, and management
• [39:54] – Brea Fleming: Scaling custom wildland firefighter apparel
• [45:22] – Supply chain and investment strategy
• [56:26] – Dubin’s reflections/advice to his younger entrepreneurial self

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Summary: Useful for the Uninitiated

This episode delivers candid, actionable advice from a successful entrepreneur to everyday founders. Michael Dubin’s wit, experience, and creativity shine through as he tackles real-world business problems, from breaking into food retail with an unknown product, scaling a niche hospitality offering, to manufacturing for essential workers. The recurring themes—importance of authentic branding, relentless sampling, employee empowerment, and strategic scaling—offer tangible inspiration for founders at every level.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. If you've started your own business, you know just how many challenges there are, big and small. I mean, look at how I built this building. This show came with a lot of trials, late nights, very, very early mornings. But even though there were challenges getting started, there is something that makes setting up a new business easier. Getting connected with AT&T business it doesn't matter what your business is dealing with, AT&T business helps to make it much, much easier. And that's the point of a provider in the first place. Making building your dream easier. Wake up to the power of att [e-mail] that's business.att.com Now a quick break from one of our sponsors, Vital Proteins. You may be familiar with Vital Proteins. It's the number one brand of collagen peptides in the US and by taking collagen peptides daily, you can help support your hair, skin, nails, bone and joint health. And now Vital Proteins is shaking it up and introducing a brand new way to get your collagen. A new collagen and protein shake. All the benefits of collagen now in a ready to drink protein shake with a light chunk, chocolatey smooth taste. I've been loving these new shakes. I use it actually as a post workout drink too, which is awesome. If you want to find out for yourself, go to www.vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy. Get 20% off your next order by entering promo code built at checkout. If you run a small business, you know there's nothing small about it. As a business owner, I get it. My business is and has always been all consuming since I started it. Every day there is a new decision to make and even the smallest decisions feel massive. Well, Shopify is a commerce platform that gets what running a small business is like because Shopify was once one too. It's the right platform with all the tools you need to be successful. Shopify. Get all the big stuff for your small business right with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 month trial and start selling today at shopify.combilt go to shopify.com built shopify.com built Klaviyo is the only CRM built for B2C and the key to making Black Friday and Cyber Monday your biggest wins yet. With marketing, service, analytics and all your customer data in one AI powered platform. Klaviyo helps you build relationships that drive more revenue and and deliver truly personalized experiences at scale. Join the more than 176,000 brands like Away, Patrick Ta and Dollar Shave Club that already grow with Klaviyo@klavi o.com hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challeng. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. And you can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas. Some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] or on substack and we'll put all of this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. Michael, it's great to have you back on the show.

[Michael Dubin]

Thanks for having me.

[Guy Raz]

Your first on how I built this back in 2018 was a live show. It was so fun at the Ace Theater in la. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, I will put a link to it in the show. Notes in that episode, Mike and I talked about how he suddenly came into acquiring a huge amount of razors in a California warehouse. And then he turned eight years of marketing experience and a background in improv into the Dollar Shave Club, which blew up. And some of you will remember this incredible and hilarious video that Michael produced to promote the brand. In 2016, just five years after its founding, Dollar Shave Club was acquired by Unilever, reportedly for a big billion. You stayed on at Unilever for, I think you were basically with Dollar Shave Club for 10 years, half the time under Unilever, half the time independent. You of course eventually left and you become an investor. I know you were an advisor to other companies, including Liquid Death, which we've also featured on the show. So, so much has happened since we last had you on the show. Give us an update on what's been going on in your life.

[Michael Dubin]

There's been a lot going on. So I don't know how much time we have, but I'll spare you the therapy session. I. The most exciting stuff that I have been up to is I wrote a screenplay that was a super fun endeavor. I'd always wanted to do it. And ultimately I finished it kind of late last year and got a bunch of great feedback from some people that I really trust. And, you know, if the script gods bless it and think it's good, I'd love to produce it. That would be a super fun thing that I've always wanted to do that draws on my personal experience, my professional experience. So that's been a fun kind of tapping of my creative side.

[Guy Raz]

I love that.

[Michael Dubin]

Yeah, well, it's hard and it's hard to be original, of course. So I've been doing that. And in addition to the screenplay, I'm continuing to do my board work and advisory work and I'm starting to noodle a few new company ideas. You know, at this point, I am ready to jump back into something, but it has to be the right thing and I'm excited to start building again.

[Guy Raz]

You know, in your episode, of course, we talked about that incredible video that you made that went viral that got people to notice Dollar Shave Club. This was a different time. I mean, the Internet is a different place than it was in 2012 when that came out. Right. And I wonder whether what your thinking is now on how to kind of cut through the noise. Is that still a reasonable goal? I mean, liquid death, which I know you've advised they did that, but again, it was a few years ago. Do you think it's something that is still possible to sort of cut through with the right kind of creative video?

[Michael Dubin]

It was a very different time. I mean, I don't even think people were using the word influencer. Just think about how the influencer economy and ecosystem has exploded. And so it was, by today's standards, a primitive marketing ecosystem. There just wasn't a lot. The webbing wasn't as exponential as it is today. There's just so many nodes pulsing out content to billion of people around the world. And so, yes, you can cut through the noise if it's something truly original, if it feels authentic, and if it strikes a chord in some way, whether that's an emotional chord or a humorous chord. Yeah, of course you can cut through the noise. I think the biggest difference might be the wave doesn't last as long as it once did because there's just so much out there. And, you know, if we launched the Dollar Shave Club video in today's ecosystem, I mean, forget about the fact that the tone is. Is, you know, from a different time, maybe, but in a hypothetical world, if you were to launch it today, I don't think you get the same length of viral wave, which was critical to our success. I think it would break through the noise, hopefully. I'd like. I'd like to think that I could be wrong, but there's no way it lasts as long. You have to work so much harder now. But if you do it well, yeah, you can break through, but then you have to sustain it with other things.

[Guy Raz]

One of the, I think just amazing things about dollar Shave Club is that it was a market and still is to a large extent dominated by one company, by Gillette, and to smaller extent, Schick. But when people come to you, or if they are trying to build something in an industry that seems saturated or dominated by a big player, what advice do you give them?

[Michael Dubin]

What advice do I give those companies?

[Guy Raz]

I guess another way of asking the question is, is it possible? I mean, do you think it's still possible? Is it wise? Is it crazy to try to do that?

[Michael Dubin]

So is it crazy? Probably. Does that mean you shouldn't try? Definitely not. The last great consumer giant, disruptor company has not been launched. They will continue to launch all the time. And so what is the signature element of their success? You know, it's. It's probably a pretty boring formula. It's a combination of, you know, great product and great distribution and great communication. And, you know, if you kind of reverse engineer Dollar Shave Club's the success of that video, I would say that, you know, we had a great product, we had unique distribution at that time. It was right at the beginning of D2C is going to eat the world. And that's not what happened ultimately, but everybody believed that at the time. And then, you know, the uniqueness of the voice with which we spoke was real and it was captivating.

[Guy Raz]

It's an amazing story. Anybody who's looking to figure out how to build a brand, you got to take a listen to this episode. As I say, we'll put it in the podcast notes and description. So check it out. Michael, let's go ahead and take our first caller. You ready?

[Benita Casbo]

Yep.

[Michael Dubin]

Let's do it.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. Welcome to How I built this advice line. You were on with Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about Your business.

[Benita Casbo]

Hi, my name is Benita Casbo. I'm calling from Chatham, New Jersey. I'm the founder and owner of Casbo's Middle Eastern Kitchen, which is a heritage food brand that honors the Middle Eastern region with authentic flavors and unique ingredients. My first product, Syrian cheese, is a traditional cheese that's eaten throughout the Middle east, is set to launch in 2026 across all new York City stores of a major grocery chain.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Awesome. Benita, I know you cause you're a huge fan of how I built this. You are always commenting on our posts and saying nice things. And you've been a fan, I feel like, since the beginning.

[Brea Fleming]

Long time.

[Guy Raz]

For like 10 years.

[Benita Casbo]

Long time. Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Longtime fan, first time caller. It's great to meet you in person. Thank you. So excited for this. All right, so tell us. So you've got this cheese that you're launching and explain what Syrian cheese is. Is it like halloumi? Is it stret? Is a melty.

[Benita Casbo]

So Syrian cheese is a cow's based milk cheese. So I'm purchasing curd from a curd producer. It gets rolled in salt and then it gets cooked with a unique Middle Eastern spice that is native to the Middle east called mahleb. And mahleb is derived from seeds of cherry pits that only grow in the Middle East. And the mahlab creates this unique flavor. So overall, what you'll experience with the Syrian cheese is a saltiness and then the center is slightly sweet. And it's a traditional cheese that's eaten everywhere. You can slice it and it melts incredibly well. Like I've gotten a two foot cheese pull before.

[Guy Raz]

Cheese pull, yes.

[Benita Casbo]

Like we can.

[Michael Dubin]

Sorry. Cheese pull.

[Guy Raz]

Pull it. Oh, pull it.

[Benita Casbo]

Pull it. Yes, yes.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, you melt it and you pull it two feet long.

[Benita Casbo]

I've pulled it two feet long.

[Guy Raz]

So when it's. When it's not melted and you slice it, is it. Does it have the texture of like a sort of a part skim mozzarella?

[Benita Casbo]

I would say it's not as soft as mozzarella. It's in between feta and halloumi, and it's in that flavor family. But you can't like put it on the grill like halloumi. You can cut it and put it directly on a fire.

[Guy Raz]

Right.

[Benita Casbo]

You can't do that with Syrian cheese. And then it has incredible melting property without getting oily.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Brea Fleming]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. Benita, when did you start your business? Tell me a little. Give me the backstory.

[Benita Casbo]

Sure, I'll give you the backstory. So I had the idea for the business in 2017, I actually got involved with the Syrian refugees that were settling in New Jersey. And I speak fluent Arabic. And so I worked as a translator and coordinator for dinners to help them settle in New Jersey. And at the time, I met a cheesemaker who tried my product, and she said, this is delicious. Could I buy the recipe from you? And I didn't sell it to her. And she said, well, I encourage you to pursue this. And then just before the pandemic, I met a someone who works in the cheese industry. And he said to me, when you're ready, I will help you with this and get help you make connections within the industry. So since the pandemic, I was home, I wasn't able to go to work. I went full force in trying to get it launched, and I found a commercial kitchen, and I started networking with the people that I had met, and I got it into a few stores. And since then, now I'm full time on the business. I'm no longer working.

[Guy Raz]

What was your old job?

[Benita Casbo]

So I worked in the pharmaceutical industry in sales and marketing. Yes.

[Guy Raz]

New Jersey pharmaceuticals.

[Benita Casbo]

Pharmaceuticals are big in New Jersey. So when I started doing selling cheese, I was working Monday through Wednesday sampling legal drugs, and then I was sampling cheese Thursday through Sunday.

[Guy Raz]

I love that. Wait, you were sampling drugs like you were just taking them?

[Benita Casbo]

Well, I was one of their salespeople.

[Brea Fleming]

So I had products that I could sample.

[Guy Raz]

All right, before I bring Michael in, what is your question for us?

[Brea Fleming]

Sure.

[Benita Casbo]

So my question for Michael is, as I prepare to launch, I'm looking for, like, an impactful, grassroots, guerilla style marketing strategy that creates excitement and draws attention to this new category of cheese within the specialty case. And then at the same time, I'd love to create a digital marketing campaign rollout that's separate from social media that'll drive customer awareness and conversion.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. All right, Michael Dubin. She's introducing essentially a new product, but it's been done with halloumi. It's been done with feta before that, mozzarella cheese, which was a foreign cheese in the United States probably in the 70s, but Americans didn't even know what that was. So, Michael, thoughts?

[Michael Dubin]

Hi, nice to meet you.

[Benita Casbo]

Nice to meet you too.

[Michael Dubin]

So exciting. I love cheese number one. I'm also getting hungrier the longer this episode goes on. Um, so that's unfortunate for me, but I'll. I'll deal with it. So thanks for your compassion. I have a couple questions. What do I put it on? Do I eat it plain? Do I put it on pizza? Do I put it on a sandwich? Am I coming up with a whole new diet here, or does this fit in easily with what I'm already making?

[Benita Casbo]

No, this will easily fit into what you're currently doing. And I have created recipe cards, and I'm going to have a dynamic QR code that goes on the packaging that will. When the customer scans it, they'll be able to get a video of me talking to them. So it's actually very simple pairing ideas that transforms how the cheese tastes depending on what you put it with. So tomato, cucumber sandwich on an amazing toasted bagel, you can melt it with in pita bread with mint and Aleppo pepper and olive oil. It's amazing.

[Michael Dubin]

Yeah. So I think I'll just riff for a second. So, number one, I love stuff that nobody's ever heard of before in the United States or that most people haven't, because there's a big opportunity, and I know you're going to kill it. I think one challenge that you're working with is, you know, consumer doesn't know it, so therefore they don't know how to use it. I'd lower the bar for them, make it really easy for them to put it on something that they're already doing, like, you know, pizza sandwiches. Eat this plain, pair it with your wine, but make it easy for people to say, like, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. You don't have to do anything totally new. This is gonna slot in really nicely with what you're already doing. And it sort of sounds like a unique form factor. Right. Like, you've got. You said between halloumi and feta. So halloumi is kind of. I love halloumi. It's. It's like a little rubbery and chewy and really great. It kind of squeaks when you chew it. And, uh, feta is really crumbly. And, you know, you can do whatever with that. But, like, your cheese, you say somewhere in the middle. I think you just kind of have to articulate for folks like, how do I do this? Where do I put it? And if the form factor is not a slice or a crumble or a patty, like halloumi, you just want to help coach people. So I think, like, that could be some fun stuff to include at the QR code destination or even in, if you're doing sampling at stores, is a little bit of information around. Like, here's how to use. Like, are you new to Syrian cheese? Here's how you do it. And I. I think you can have fun with the idea of Syrian cheese. Like, maybe there's a campaign which is, like, everybody knows the best cheese comes from Syria. Everybody knows that. Like, maybe you hire. I don't know what country is best known for its cheese. Maybe France. Amsterdam. Right? And so maybe you have, like, angry French ambassadors because they're so mad that Syrian cheese. The secret's finally out on Syrian cheese. Like. Like, everybody knows about, you know, like, I cannot believe that Syrian cheese, you know, you could have so much fun with, like, this idea that everybody knows about Syrian cheese. Right. Doesn't everybody know about Syrian cheese?

[Brea Fleming]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. That's very cool.

[Michael Dubin]

And so, like, I think you can have fun with that. I think you can have fun, like, in the sampling. I think you can have a lot of fun with, like, characters. I read an article recently about, like, where have all the great mascots gone? And I think, you know, mascots work. Like, have fun with that. Like. Like, maybe it's angry Spanish, you know, cheese connoisseurs who are mad that the secret's now out, you know, and it's like they go around, you know, dissing Syrian cheese, and it's obviously a joke, but it's like they're dissing it because it's so good, you know, Or. Or, like, maybe. Maybe there's, like. Maybe there's, like, a Syrian cheese costume you can build. And it's like you're just doing the sampling in the Syrian cheese costume, but, like, think of mascots. Think of, like, think of big, visual arresting ideas as you bring this to life. But, yeah, I don't know. There's a couple ideas at top of mind.

[Guy Raz]

I love that. Having a friend, chef in a social media video, just talking about how the seeker is out. That's a great idea.

[Brea Fleming]

That's a great idea.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. It's so funny. One thing that I.

[Michael Dubin]

What are we going to do now?

[Guy Raz]

You, Vanita, you are going to have to. In addition to finding. Finding the French actor, you're gonna have to.

[Michael Dubin]

I'm available, by the way. I'm not.

[Guy Raz]

He's available. Hopefully he's retired. He's looking for work. He's looking for work.

[Michael Dubin]

I'm cheap, too.

[Guy Raz]

You are gonna have to sample the hell out of this. You're gonna have to go, you know, you're gonna have to spend the next year, every weekend, weeknights, sampling, and people are gonna have to eat it and try it, and you're gonna maybe use a little bit of honey on A cracker. I don't know how. Just different ways of doing it. But that is going to be the key here because it's, you know, you're starting in New York City and it's an advantage because New York City's a place where trends start and there's a, you know, an audience of people who are, who are adventurous and, you know, as you're sampling it, you know, the message should be like, meet the Middle Eastern cheese you've never tried but are about to fall in love with or about to become your favorite cheese. Something like that. And then the other thing is, I would really lean into as best you can to some of the local press in New York Eater and some of the food magazines are all based there, Food52. And see if you can just pitch them and get them to. They're always looking for new category stories.

[Benita Casbo]

Well, to your point, Guy, I was featured in the New York Times. Florence Fabricant wrote a book about it. And so I, I think I need to bring that back up to surface. And, and I didn't get to tell you this, but I'm the cheese maker for a high end Middle Eastern restaurant in New York City. So I do food service as well. And they recently got a full page write up by a food critic and she did make a note in the article, she said her favorite was the Syrian cheese appetizer. And I helped create that with the head chef.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Yeah, that's amazing.

[Michael Dubin]

Okay, let me chime in. First of all, I couldn't agree more with Guy. That sampling is gonna be key to your strategy. And the other thing that I think is super important for you to get right is your packaging. Yeah, I'm not a designer. I couldn't give you advice there, but I know it when I see it. So when you have your packaging, if you wanna shoot me a note on LinkedIn, I'm happy to look at it.

[Benita Casbo]

Oh, I would love that.

[Michael Dubin]

And tell you what I think. But I think those are two things that you have to get right is your, is your packaging and your sampling strategy.

[Brea Fleming]

Absolutely.

[Guy Raz]

And finding a French guy, you know.

[Benita Casbo]

Well, it's funny within the cheese community. People have started to make jokes about it like it's better than feta. Like people have made jokes like that. But Michael, to your point, we are starting our packaging design right now. I'm working with an agency, so I'm happy to share it with you. We started with the logo right now and then we're moving towards the packaging.

[Michael Dubin]

And a couple of weeks, everyone knows About Syrian cheese Everyone knows, Everyone knows Everyone knows Everyone knows the best cheese comes from Syria.

[Guy Raz]

There you go. Bonita Casbo, founder of Casbo's Market. Thanks for calling in. It's great to have you on.

[Benita Casbo]

Thank you so much for.

[Guy Raz]

For cheering us on, too, over the years.

[Benita Casbo]

Appreciate you.

[Guy Raz]

Bye.

[Michael Dubin]

Good luck.

[Guy Raz]

Imagine in your head, what does a French cheesemaker look like? Cuz I'm thinking he's wearing a beret, right? Yeah. And a red scarf, maybe, like around his neck.

[Michael Dubin]

Go on, you've got it.

[Guy Raz]

Mustache.

[Michael Dubin]

Yep. For sure.

[Guy Raz]

Mustache.

[Michael Dubin]

I think you got it. I think you got the shot.

[Guy Raz]

He's shouting. He is shouting.

[Michael Dubin]

He's angry.

[Guy Raz]

He's angry.

[Michael Dubin]

He's angry because the secret's out.

[Guy Raz]

That's her. That's her mascot.

[Michael Dubin]

Totally. I love it. I think it's super fun.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this. The holidays are upon us, and businesses are hiring for seasonal roles. Everything from haunted corn maze workers to snowplow drivers. This means that people with certain skills, experience, or even a special license are in high demand and not easy to find. Whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, the best way to find the perfect match for your role is. Is on ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Build ZipRecruiter's matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money. You can find out right away how many job seekers in your area are qualified for your role. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And right now, you can try it for [e-mail] BILT Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com BILT ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire your AI agents. Make your teams more productive. Right? But if they aren't connected to the rest of your business, how productive can they really make your teams? Any business can use AI. IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business. Let's create smarter business. IBM. We all have moments when we could have done better. Like cutting your own hair. Yikes. Or forgetting sunscreen. So now you look like a tomato. Ouch. Could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn [e-mail]. welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. And we are ready to take our next caller. Hello, caller.

[Brandon Davis]

Hi, my name is Brandon Davis. I'm from Vista, California in San Diego County. I'm the owner of Pars Mobile Mini Golf alongside my wife Claire. With Pars, we bring the mini golf to you for your next party or event.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Okay, Brandon, thanks for calling in Pars Mobile Mini Golf. So, like, I have a party and I want. I want something to do. You will bring a mini golf course to my party. You will set it up. And how does that work?

[Brandon Davis]

Yeah, we bring the full mini golf course. We try to make it look as permanent as possible in the space that you have. All we need is a flat surface. We provide all the putters and balls. We have designed it to be as challenging and immersive as possible. It has a high end look, so it can go to black tie weddings and corporate events, but it's also versatile enough where it can go to a backyard barbecue as well.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Wow. Who knew who? What kinds of parties are they? Kids parties. Who hires you guys?

[Brandon Davis]

Our biggest clientele is weddings and corporate events.

[Guy Raz]

Weddings?

[Michael Dubin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandon Davis]

So during the cocktail hour and reception, they'll have it to entertain guests and, you know, people can converse and meet each other over a game of mini golf.

[Guy Raz]

That is so cool. How did you even come up with this idea? Who would have thought of this?

[Brandon Davis]

Yeah, I loved mini golf as a kid. And one day my wife and I were talking and I was just like, I would love to own a permanent mini golf course, like a fully immersive indoor one. And we didn't have the money at the time, so we were just brainstorming and thought, well, what if we made it mobile? We both have woodworking experience. My wife is a designer myself. I designed window displays for a national bookstore. And so we just got started working on it out of our carport and started running it with four holes, and then it just grew from there.

[Guy Raz]

That is so cool. And. And you're based, you said, in San Diego, so I'm assuming most, if not all of your business is in that area. In San Diego, yeah.

[Brandon Davis]

And we started the company in Utah, but we moved it out here because My wife's family's from here and we just thought this is going to be the market for it. So we packed up our whole family of three kids after two years of running it there, moved it to California, kind of took a risk and it's paid off really well. We've done better here in California than we ever did in Utah.

[Guy Raz]

And this is your full time job, right? This is what you guys are doing?

[Brandon Davis]

My wife is actually, now that it's back up on its feet and doing well, she's going back to be an exhibit designer for the San Diego Natural History Museum. So I'll be running it full time myself.

[Guy Raz]

And, and do you have any employees?

[Brandon Davis]

Yeah, we have two delivery leads who can run separate routes and then we have a pool of gig workers who will go out with them and give.

[Guy Raz]

Us a sense of what you guys are in terms of revenue, what you guys are doing right now. I mean, have you broken 100 grand a year? 150.

[Brandon Davis]

Yeah. So this year we're projected to hit over $200,000, which honestly is just mind boggling to me that something I made out of my carport is at that point.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. That's awesome. All right, before we get dive into this, tell us what your question is.

[Brandon Davis]

Yeah, so a lot of small niche event businesses like ours, they're really driven by like two products. I would say the actual product and then the client interaction and experience that's like just as important. I've been going to a lot of the events since we started again in California, but now that the volume is up, how do we make sure that our employees are bringing that same level of, of client interaction and experience that we bring when they don't have the same skin in the game and emotional investment?

[Guy Raz]

All right, Michael Dubin, lots to think about here. Thoughts, questions, concerns? Comments?

[Michael Dubin]

Yeah, so first of all, congrats on the business. It's a super unique idea. Everybody's looking for ways to make their event more fun. But to address your question, you know, you're highlighting a challenge that every entrepreneur faces, which is how do I get everybody else to care as much as I do about the business and about the customer experience? And one of the best ways to do that is to create an equity pool that your employees can participate in. Is there a way for you to make your employees the best ones, the ones that are the most loyal? Can you give them a share of your company so that they feel the pride of ownership that you feel and they can enjoy in your success beyond what you're Paying them from a salary or gratuity basis. I'm not sure how your, how your team works, but, you know, that's probably the best way I could think about is letting them participate in that way in your success. But it's a hard thing to do, especially with people who are being paid hourly who may not have the same passion for the category. So another thing that employees really like is depending on, you know, depending on the specific company and what the role is, is investing in their development as, as a, as a worker and, and where do they want to grow? You know, nobody comes to your company expecting it to be a lifelong relationship and you shouldn't expect that either. Right. That's just not how it works. And then eventually they're going to move on and they're going to do something else. How can you play a role in their development and say, here's what we need out of you while you're here. And by the time you leave, you're going to leave with A, B and C skills capabilities and those are going to serve you well in what you want to do moving forward.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. In addition, I mean, giving people equity. Amazing. Because right away they're invested in that. Right. They will get a piece of the. But before you go down that route, because I think you're still pretty small and you may not want to do that yet. We did an episode a couple years back about Specialized bikes and it's worth listening to that episode because Mike Sinyard, who founded that company, was struggling in like 2000, 2001, and almost went bankrupt. Bankrupt. And he happened to read an article about Adidas and how Adidas really turned around their business in the United States in part because of a brand Bible. He thought, wow, I've been running specialized for 20 years and I've never written a brand Bible. And here you are, you've got a new company, a new business, and you don't have to write, you know, a 2000 page brand Bible, but you could write like a customer service manifesto. Right. Because you're not in the mini golf business, you're in the hospitality business. Yeah, exactly. You're in the. Like a restaurant is not serving food. They create experiences. Like, you go to a restaurant and yeah, the food might be great, but that's enhancing the conversation that you have with somebody else. It's a memorable experience. Having great food just makes it even better. And having great customer service at the restaurant. There are a lot of sort of points of contact and with what you do, it's the same thing. It's like someone went to the wedding, they're like, oh. And there was a mini golf course. It was the best wedding ever. I had. I just. It was fun and the drinks were great and the food is great. And so your job is to. Is to help create that joyful moment. And I think you start by building a document. It can be 2, 3, 5 pages in Microsoft Word or Google Docs that says, we're in the business of creating joy. And you basically have checklists, how to greet people, how to respond, how to smile. The other thing I think is really critical for your business is who you hire, because you're not looking for necessarily people with skill, like specialized skills. Right. The most important thing you're looking for is somebody with the right attitude. You've got to hire for attitude over everything. You can teach people how to do this stuff, but you want to look for people who maybe have worked in hospitality, who just love this stuff, who are just joyful, just. And not everyone's like that. I'm not like that. I get grumpy all the time. But there are lots of people out there. Actually, most of my. All my team on how I built is like that. You want to find people who just love this and love this idea and love bringing joy to people. And that's where you start to, you know, you create the ability to kind of let go and manage more and let's let other people run the show.

[Michael Dubin]

And I'll add to that and just say, when you're interviewing candidates, it's really important to ask them why they want this job, what do they want to get out of it, and how can you help them get that thing out of it? And pay attention to the answer that you get. You want to try to find people with that kind of passion that guy mentioned, with that sense of joyfulness. And you want somebody that believes in the mission and believes in the business that you're creating. That's how you're going to get people to stay and be the right kind of ambassador once they got the job. So pay attention to the answers that they give you, because you don't want to hire people for whom this is just a job.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Another way to incentivize people to really step up, and it's relatively inexpensive, is you can. If you're not doing this already, you should be asking every client for feedback. It's annoying because every time I buy something, I'm asked for feedback and it's a little bit overwrought. But I think you could do it in a short way. Just a couple of, like, quick ticks of a box. How would you rate the experience and incentivize your. The people who are, you know, working for you to really go the extra mile? You can give them gift cards, you know, $100, $200, $300 gift card for doing a great job and really praising them for the work they do. Right. And also, most importantly, showing an example. So when you hire people, obviously, I'm assuming you're already doing this. They come with you. They come with your wife. They see how you operate, how you interact with guests, how you behave, how you go the extra mile to create those moments of joy and emphasize that that's what they need to do.

[Brandon Davis]

This is everything I needed, like, all the things I needed. So thank you so much. I, like, want to get jumping on all of this.

[Guy Raz]

So let's go mini golfing. Let's do it.

[Michael Dubin]

I want to give you. I want to just give you two thoughts that just popped into my head about mini golf, because I really do love mini golf. Number one, I had a question. Can you buy the kit and bring it to your own event, or is it. Do I have to hire your company to bring to my event?

[Brandon Davis]

We only rent right now. We've had people ask whether they can buy. We kind of don't want to, like, cannibalize our own sales and our own, like, rental market area, But I guess it really won't with how big the market is. And so it's just whether my wife and I can build the course out.

[Michael Dubin]

Well, also, just think about a different consumer. Right. The product that somebody's going to buy and bring home with them is going to be very different than the thing you bring to, you know, the event, the wedding.

[Brandon Davis]

Definitely.

[Michael Dubin]

The last idea I had for you is like, could you do something where you build a live miniature. Buy a miniature golf course that acts as a marketing tent pole for you. Like, this one idea I've always had is building a mini golf course in a beautiful botanical gardens. And it would be attractive to both, like, people who love plants and gardens and people who love mini golf. They come there and they fall in love with it. And then you market having an event. We bring the course to you. But having a real place, you know, that people can come to might be an interesting marketing tactic for you.

[Brandon Davis]

Yeah, we've even thought, like, with a warehouse, that we have a showroom that we really theme out, people can come and play and pay the $10 to play, and we just re theme it every six months or so. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Brandon Davis company's called Pars Mobile Mini Golf. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in.

[Brandon Davis]

Thanks so much, Guy. Thanks for calling.

[Guy Raz]

Appreciate it. Yeah, it's great having you. The thing about mini golf, it's like it's, you know, I think if you get it going, it's a pretty good business, right?

[Michael Dubin]

It's a good business, definitely. But yeah, I think he's got something. I'd love to go to one of his events.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice line right here on How I built this lab. As a founder, you're moving fast toward product market fit your next round or your first big enterprise deal. But with AI accelerating how quickly startups build and ship, security expectations are higher earlier than ever. Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or if you wait too long, stall it. With deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast moving teams, Vanta gets you audit ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infrastructure and customers evolve. Fast growing startups like LangChain, Rider and Cursor trust Advanta to build a scalable foundation from the start. I love that over 10,000 companies, from startups to huge enterprises, trust Vanta because it makes me trust them. Go to vanta.combilt to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta. That's V A N T A.combilt to save $1 thousand dollars for a limited time.

[Michael Dubin]

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[Guy Raz]

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[Michael Dubin]

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[Guy Raz]

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[Michael Dubin]

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[Guy Raz]

In New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome back to the Advice line on How I built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Michael Dubin, the founder of Dollar Shave Club. And Michael, you ready for the next call?

[Michael Dubin]

I sure am.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. Tell us your name. Where you're calling from and just one line about your business, please.

[Brea Fleming]

Hey, guy. Hey, Michael. Excited to be on. My name is Brea Fleming. I am located in the beautiful Flint Hills of Kansas, and I'm the founder and operator of Incidental Wildland, llc, and we manufacture custom uniforms for wildland firefighters.

[Guy Raz]

Wow, that's awesome. Thanks for calling in, Brio. So, custom uniforms for firefighters who fight wildland fires. That is a very. Sounds like a really niche business. Although with climate change, there's tons of forest fires. How did you start this business? What's the story behind it?

[Brea Fleming]

Well, long story short, I graduated college during the recession when there were no jobs, and I have a background in costume construction. But I went into AmeriCorps after college because, you know, no jobs. And I ended up on a fire team doing prescribed fire in western Iowa for the Nature Conservancy.

[Guy Raz]

You were basically doing prescribed burns, right? Just to clear out brush. Okay. Yep. And you fell in love with it, but this was just your AmeriCorps job, and you ended up staying in firefighting.

[Brea Fleming]

Yeah, I really loved it. So I spent several years doing more prescribed fire crews teams here and there. Eventually I got into fire suppression as well. But a prevailing issue in the industry is the terrible fit of the uniforms that were issued especially for women in the field. And having some sewing skills, I thought maybe I could do something about that.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Just like, I'm assuming that the clothing is like, the material is. I mean, you're like, what is it made of, Kevlar? I mean, what is. Has to be very durable. Robust.

[Brea Fleming]

Yes. Yeah. So the material is Aramid or Para Aramid. The brand name is Nomex. That's kind of of what our uniforms are referred to as Nomex. And yeah, there's a Kevlar component to a lot of the pants materials that I work with as well.

[Guy Raz]

It's all obviously designed to withstand. You know, they're not flammable, I'm assuming, Right?

[Brea Fleming]

Yep. So once the material, if it catches fire, it. It self extinguishes, basically, just like a natural fiber wood, cotton, or wool. And then there's also a big component on radiant heat heat protection. So as the fibers heat up, they actually expand and close off all those micro gaps between fibers to protect your skin from radiant heat as well.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so the uniforms that you were using sucked. And again, what was the problem with them?

[Brea Fleming]

The fit is really problematic. And that is something that's dictated by the oversight committee, I guess you could call them the nfpa. Or National Fire Protection Administration, I think. And they have a size chart in that standard that dictates. It's a little technical, but basically it's called wearing ease. Like if I make a pair of pants and your waist measurement is 32. If I made your pants at a waist 32, they would be too tight because that's skin tight. So in garment making, we add what's called wearing ease to make it fit and move on your body. And there's a practical amount of wearing ease, and then there's an excessive amount of wearing ease. And basically what the end is, NFPA dictates is an excessive amount of wearing ease that leads to basically a uniform that makes you feel like you're going to work in an oversized duffel bag. If I could.

[Guy Raz]

Right. Just a practical question. I'm assuming most firefighters are hired to. You know, they're hired and they're provided with uniforms. And so how common is it for them to be like, you know, I'm going to go buy my own stuff?

[Brea Fleming]

Yeah, that's a great question. And I would say, from what I've seen from my clients, most of them are either purchasing their uniform from me with a company card or they're being reimbursed. I do occasionally get folks who feel strongly enough about it that they're buying out of their own pockets, but in my opinion, that shouldn't happen. Your employer should be providing your PPE for you.

[Guy Raz]

And you're mostly making. You're not just making apparel for women. Right. This is not right.

[Brea Fleming]

Women, men. And I also do a small amount of accessories like utility wallets and tool pouches and that kind of thing.

[Guy Raz]

Lots of questions before we get to them. Tell us your question for us today.

[Brea Fleming]

My question is about scaling. I've been in business nine years. It's been very slow. I've reinvented wheels. I did not need to reinvent. Just kind of been bootstrapping and creating a day job for myself. And I'm at the point where I have more demand than I myself can produce. And so I'm just kind of at a loss as to where to focus next and how to choose what to scale first and what to try.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Okay. Michael Dubin, this is a very interesting. I mean, it's certainly niche, but I mean, look. I mean, there's whole brands that were created out of, like, scrubs. Right. There's a. I can't remember that big one. There's a big one, but Figs. Figs, right. Yeah. Right. So there's a world where like, you know, what started out as firefighting apparel can become, you know, working people's. But anyway, thoughts about incidental Wildland?

[Michael Dubin]

Yeah, I, first of all, you know, nice to meet you. Thanks for building this business. This is an area that's close to my heart. During the pandemic, I started a wildfire nonprofit and we do some lobbying, we do some fuel mitigation work work and some forest management work as well. But I think the space that you're working in is really cool and I think it's, I think it's a cool business. Look, it sounds like you need to raise some money so that you can go out and hire staff or, or develop a manufacturing partnership with someone that's, that's essentially what the, the point that you're at. I mean, you said it, demand is not your problem. So if, if this is really just a supply chain production issue, I would say my question back to you is, have you found manufacturing partners that can help you develop the product to your specifications or are you still on the hunt?

[Brea Fleming]

Sure. Yeah. So I've kind of started down that road. I now have a part time employee and a couple of contract sewists that I work with. And I've also started utilizing a contract cut and sew company in Kansas City near where I live. And that's been great. What I found though is that of all the hats I wear as a business owner, the sewing is the only thing I can pay myself for. So if I'm handing off all the sewing, there's nothing left for me. And I would like to continue having an income. So that's tricky. But I feel like I'm starting to have the systems in place to build. And maybe it is just a question of volume and better marketing or maybe there are some other things I could be thinking about too.

[Guy Raz]

Well, Bre, I'm curious about what you just said because I mean, your sewing skills are important, but they're more proof of concept, right? I mean, the long term value is in your designs and that's your ip, right? And your credibility because you are a firefighter. And so why can't you hire sewers and focus on the other parts of the business?

[Brea Fleming]

I guess that's just a margin issue and possibly a fundraising issue. The material is incredibly expensive and people are used to paying a premium for this type of garment. But I'm very passionate about the industry. I don't want to be the most expensive product on the market. I want to be accessible to the people like you mentioned. Earlier who are still on the hook for buying this stuff out of their own pockets. And I just. Just. Yeah, I'm not quite sure how much room I have to raise prices and increase my margins and be able to pay for things like my time designing or my time marketing.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so then I guess my next thought would be, well, if that's the case, what about doubling down on accessories? Because I imagine that might be a little bit more scalable for the time being. Even though your passion may be in the uniforms, accessories might have higher margins, I'm assuming, like, I don't know, gloves or, I don't know, pouches or whatever, belts, like, whatever accessories that you might need as a firefighter. Is that true? Would the margins be better?

[Brea Fleming]

Yes, accessories have a better margin and it would be more scalable. So I guess that would be just kind of an education question on my part. Like, I've never done any kind of B2B. I don't know how to approach a retailer about caring my products. But, yeah, it's worth thinking about for sure.

[Michael Dubin]

Bria, have you raised any money? What's your. What's your philosophy or thoughts around raising some investment capital?

[Brea Fleming]

I have never tried, honestly.

[Michael Dubin]

Okay, well, I. How do you feel about trying?

[Brea Fleming]

I would. I would love to do that and see what I could do with it. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

By the way, Michael, you mentioned this briefly, but I think it's worth just kind of double clicking on this. You did start a non profit called safewoods.

[Michael Dubin]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Which I guess, and I'm going to try to describe this, and you can correct me, it's like an eco tourism nonprofit where people can go and fight, like, learn about how to fight wildfires on their vacations, basically. Is that right?

[Michael Dubin]

More or less. And it's had a bit of a meandering journey, but we kind of started out wanting to raise awareness for the importance of fuel mitigation work and forest management work. And so we thought, could we create opportunities for individuals or companies looking to do kind of an eco retreat or some community service type thing to come out to our spot in Montana and work with the US Forest Service to do the fuel mitigation work, learn how it all works, and then go back to their communities and spread the gospel? Where it has migrated a little bit towards is bringing, you know, influential people in business and government out in. Into the wildland to learn about this work, to hopefully influence public policy. And we've had some. Some really great success so far.

[Guy Raz]

That's super cool. I'm Michael. I'm seeing an incidental Wildland Safewoods collab. Like, you know, like everybody. You get all these.

[Brea Fleming]

Yeah. Who do you buy your uniforms from?

[Guy Raz]

You get your CEOs out there, they want to dress up, up firefighters.

[Michael Dubin]

Well, you can count on that. So hit me up on LinkedIn and we'll do it. But it doesn't sound like demand is your problem. I'd hate to create, you know, more, more of a challenge for you, but we'll absolutely get these outfits on our staff and on the US Forest folks if they're, if they're willing to do it, and then our guests, of course. But I think you should really think about raising some money. You know, you're, you're, you have the seedlings of a, of a really kind of big idea here. And it's not more than the seedlings. You, you. It's already starting to grow. And I think, you know, gosh, pardon the, pardon the annoying pun, but it's time to put some fuel on the fire and create a little bit of buzz around this. And I really think there are folks out there that can help you make the stuff, whether those are individuals, you know, doing it in a more of a homespun way, kind of like you're doing. And then I think there's probably some quasi industrial sources that you could lean on to help you. But you're going to need some money to go around and travel to meet them and, and, and learn about them, and then maybe to, you know, you're going to need some cash because you're probably not going to get debt right away. You're probably going to need to put some equity capital into, into your first inventory purchases. But I would say don't be afraid of, of raising money. I think you could probably raise from both investors that look to invest in companies that are for profit, but also because this is such a public good, I bet you could get some funding from folks that invest in nonprofits as well.

[Guy Raz]

Michael, I think that's an interesting idea, but don't you think that in order for BRIA to attract capital, the vision has to go beyond firefighting, like for workwear welders, electrical utility workers down the road, like something like that? That.

[Michael Dubin]

Well, I think that. I think it's a great point. I think you always want to go if you're pitching. Short answer is it depends who you're pitching, but you can never go wrong with going out with a big vision for how you're going to grow beyond your initial category. So it's great advice, and you should Think beyond that. That said, you might find yourself talking to folks who invest in fire, wildland fire nonprofits that might say, well, this actually feels like a public good that's connected to our mission, so you may not need to do it. But I would say if you have ideas for other categories, some of which guy just mentioned that are great ones, absolutely include that in your pitch because what investors want to hear is the big idea. How is this going to be the next category killer and disrupt an industry.

[Guy Raz]

And you have a great story. Female firefighter. I mean, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there aren't that many female firefighters, wildfire fighters. I just probably as vast majority are men.

[Brea Fleming]

Yeah. I think the last statistic I heard was the wildland fire scene is about 87% male.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. So 13% of these firefighters are women. I mean, you've got a natural story here. So there's a lot of sort of media, I can imagine a lot of media opportunities to tell that story down the road. But I really think that it's an interesting idea. Right. If you want to scale this up, you got to find a better supply chain and you've got to figure out ways to make to sort of lower costs so you can focus on expanding the business. One just quick thought, and I really, I hesitate to bring this up, but I'm going to anyway because I'm a huge, huge proponent of making things locally and domestically. And you emphasize American made everything. But I wonder if there's a world where some of the products, some of the sourcing can come from overseas that might lower costs.

[Brea Fleming]

Sure, yeah, it probably would. And that's honestly not something that I've really entertained the idea of up to this point. But there are a lot of good options as far as ethically sourcing overseas production. And, you know, if it got to that point, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Michael, any last thoughts for Bria before we we send her off into the intention, into a collaboration with Safewood?

[Michael Dubin]

I would love to see you raise a couple bucks. I think you can do it. It's a good product. It's a great story. There's a big market to disrupt and have fun with, and you're already having success. I think you've got all the ingredients of a good fundraising story, so it might not come naturally to you, but I would encourage you to do it. There's a lot of knowledge out there on the web to help you with your pitch and help you fine tune it. But. But look, don't hesitate. I think it's something that you'll be really good at.

[Guy Raz]

Bria Fleming, incidental. Wildland, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.

[Brea Fleming]

Thank you both so much. And Michael, thanks so much for your work in the fire mitigation space. That's really awesome.

[Michael Dubin]

Thank you, Bria. Good luck.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. I mean, I know you live in la, you spend a lot of time in la, but California obviously has had some serious issues with wildfires. How did you get into that? Like, why did you decide to do that?

[Michael Dubin]

You just, at a certain point when you live in the west, you're going to collide with this issue in some way and you're going to know somebody that's been affected by it. And as somebody who I had just stepped down as CEO of Dollar Shave Club in January of 21 and I was looking for something to sink my teeth into and I got smoked out of this vacation and I just kind of went deep down the rabbit hole to learn about wildfire and wildland fire and how it and all the policy related issues, et cetera, and decided to start Safewood. So, yeah, it was sort of outside of my wheelhouse, but I'm really glad I've done it. It's connected me to some really incredible people, both on the federal government side at the US Forest side, and then other really big thinkers in the policy space.

[Guy Raz]

That's awesome. Michael, before I let you go, a question that I've been asking every founder who comes back on to help me on the advice line, which is, is if you could go back to, you know, 2011, you know, 2010, whatever, when you were sort of starting this out, you had a marketing background, you had improv, but you didn't know how to run a business. Right. Knowing what you know now, what would have been helpful for you to know back then?

[Michael Dubin]

Gosh, I think probably some of the best advice I would have given myself back then probably would have been more on the personal side. I was consumed with, with the business and, and making it successful. And I, I think in some ways that pulled me out of being more present in some other areas of my life. And so I, I think I would have tried to give myself some advice around, you know, just taking it as it comes, creating more personal time for you and space for other things in your life that would have been really helpful. I think I would have felt, felt calmer throughout the journey. At the same time, it was a completely invigorating journey and I loved every second of it. Even the really, really Hard stuff, even the sleepless nights. But I think with that advice, there might have been a few fewer sleepless nights. But on the professional side, I would say, you know, learn to trust. I never had a problem trusting people outside my core competency in areas like finance or supply chain or operations because I didn't come from those backgrounds. So it was easy to trust those people. But as the team grew, you know, and I would hire folks in marketing in, in other areas that, that were closer to my experience set, I would say, you know, it's, it's sometimes hard to let go of the things that you love doing, but you have to do that to achieve the right level of scale.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I love that. Michael, thanks so much for coming back on.

[Michael Dubin]

Thank you for having me. This was super fun.

[Guy Raz]

That's Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. And by the way, if you haven't heard Michael's original How I Built this episode, please go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the show notes. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Michael Dubin]

So our first investor was a company called Science. They're out in Santa Monica. They gave us a $100,000 check. Actually, no, they gave us a hundred dollar check by accident first. And I got all the way to the bank. I literally, I got to the bank and I was like, here's my check for $100,000. You had to fill out the form that said $100,000. And I fill it out and the woman looks at me and she's like.

[Guy Raz]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Nour Gill with music composed by Ramtina Rabloui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Karla Estevez, Casey Herman, Kerry Thompson, Katherine Cipher, Romel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I built this lab. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey Limu game and Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mut. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu Save yourself money today. Increase your wealth.

[Benita Casbo]

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[Guy Raz]

We say that may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very underwritten by.

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