Neil Blumenthal (4:16)

Thanks for having me. It's great to be back.

Guy Raz (4:18)

Great to have you back. You were first on the show back in 2016 telling us how you and a few friends from your MBA program at Wharton basically realized that glasses were way too expensive than they had to be and you decided to do something about it. And of course your brand, Warby Parker was the result. It's been an amazing success story and you guys really changed the way people buy glasses. And by the way, for those of you listening who haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. It's such an awesome story and well worth going back. I want to ask you a quick question before we get to our callers about your co founder Dave Gilboa because he was also on the show with you. You guys are still the CO CEOs of Warby Parker all these years later since you founded the company back in 2010.

Neil Blumenthal (5:06)

10.

Guy Raz (5:07)

Yeah.

Neil Blumenthal (5:09)

15 years.

Guy Raz (5:10)

This is quite uncommon, right? We've seen it with like Wayfair and some other brands where the co founders are still really running the thing together. But it's uncommon, right? To have such a long working Relationship that successful CO CEOs. You're both the CEOs. How do you explain it? I mean, for me, I think a lot of it is just chemistry. People have chemistry that just happens to work, but it still takes work. What works in your relationship to make that possible?

Neil Blumenthal (5:42)

Completely. I think it comes down to trust and respect. We implicitly trust each other to make any sort of decision, but also to seek each other's advice. And if I am thinking through a challenge, I immediately want to share it with Dave because I know that whatever ideas I have, he'll enhance them and make them better. And we still sit next to each other. So for 15 years we've been sitting next to each other in between meetings. We're constantly talking to each other. Often we might call each other on the way to work or late at night, much to our wives chagrin. But it's just been a lovely partnership in which we both make each other better.

Guy Raz (6:28)

It's really great. And I know glasses or the technology of glasses have been around for a long time. It's basically ground down glass in frames. But I know you guys are really leaning into AI. Can you talk about how you're integrating AI into the actual products that you make?

Neil Blumenthal (6:49)

Yeah, we're really excited. We're working with Google to launch AI glasses, their sort of Warby Parker branded intelligent eyewear. If you think about it, your glasses sit on your face. They're able to see what you see, hear what you hear and you can look at a plant or a building or a piece of art and you can learn more about it. Being able to communicate with somebody in another language where as they're speaking, your glasses could, could be translating in real time. So these are things that are really helpful and useful for all of us.

Guy Raz (7:29)

Yeah, I mean, not to make any comparisons, but I have a pair of meta glasses. They're really cool. The audio quality is great. And also not having to look down at a phone. It's really nice.

Neil Blumenthal (7:39)

Completely. Yeah. Just the freedom to not take your phone out of your pocket for an hour. We are beholden to these mobile devices and I'm excited for that day where it can stay in your pocket or on your desk for a little longer.

Guy Raz (7:57)

Yeah, for sure. All right, let's take our first. Let's bring our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with Neil Blumenthal, co founder of Warby Parker. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

Kimber Crandall (8:09)

Hi, my name is Kimber Crandall. I'M calling in from Utah, and I'm the co founder of Pearl Pop. Pearl Pop is the first soft and chewy toothpaste. Looks more like and feels like a gummy and tastes like a treat, but it actually treats your teeth with clean ingredients too.

Guy Raz (8:24)

Okay, awesome. Kimber, I met you. I met you. You came to one of my book signings for my kids book wow. In the world. And I'm so psyched to have you on the show. So before we dive into all your question, let's talk a little bit about Pearl Pups. These are. It's a. It's. They're gummies. They look and they sort of have the texture like a gummy candy, but it's basically toothpaste. You chew on it and then you brush your teeth. But it's not like foam, right? It's not. It doesn't foam up. Tell me how it works.

Kimber Crandall (8:54)

That's right. There is no foam, and that's because we don't have sulfates. As we were formulating this, we wanted it to have cleaner ingredients, and so that was part of the process. So you pop it in your mouth, chew for a few seconds, and then you start brushing and you brush those pearl bits into your teeth until it mostly dissolves. So about two minutes. Spit, don't rinse. Then the nano hydroxyapatite and the xylitol can keep working even after you brush.

Guy Raz (9:17)

Okay, so this nano hydroxyl apatite, this replaces fluoride. These do not have fluoride. Tell me why you don't have fluoride in there.

Kimber Crandall (9:28)

There is a huge market. When we were initially starting out doing this, about 50% from our surveys and studies showed that 50% either don't want fluoride or they're looking for an alternative because they aren't passionate about fluoride. So we thought, let's go after that audience first, since they are looking to for something and need an alternative.

Guy Raz (9:45)

All right, fair enough. Okay, Kimber, tell us a little bit about how you got into this, because I know this because I met you. You were a TV reporter.

Kimber Crandall (9:54)

Yes. Won a few Emmys and. Yeah. Lived out that life. And now this is part two for me.

Guy Raz (10:00)

Tell me, what was the, like. What was the. What precipitated that pivot to just completely start something new?

Kimber Crandall (10:07)

Yes. In 2020, I became a single mom of four little girls. @ the time, they were between the ages of 1 and 7. And I knew I needed revamp my career and figure out what to do. And so I applied to BYU to their executive MBA program. And this started out as a class project. We were in an entrepreneurial class. We were studying parents of young kids and bedtime as the pain point. Well, what about bedtime was hard? It's that you needed to get your kids to brush their teeth. You asked them five times, they squirted out all over the sink. You finally just send them to bed. You've yelled at them, you feel like a bad parent. Okay, so if we can just stop right there and give your kids something that makes them actually want to brush and. And with cleaner ingredients, then you're going to smile more confidently, and your kids will.

Guy Raz (10:48)

Too. Got it. And all direct to consumer. This is all being sold through the website.

Kimber Crandall (10:52)

Right? Mostly through the website. We do have some small retailers, like local stores that are carrying.

Guy Raz (10:57)

It. Nice. Okay, that's great. Tell us what question you brought in for us.

Kimber Crandall (11:01)

Today. Yeah, the question I brought is, with something that requires so much education and is completely new to the market, how do you create a movement or a moment that changes the consumer habits and spreads awareness to essentially take it from something that's a niche to a mainstream product and.

Guy Raz (11:18)

Behavior? All right, Neil Bloomfield, I want to bring you in. You don't have to answer the question right away, but any questions for Kimber or thoughts?

Neil Blumenthal (11:24)

Sure. What I think is really interesting about your business is that you effectively have two customers.

Kimber Crandall (11:30)

Right?

Neil Blumenthal (11:31)

Yes. You have the child that is using the toothpaste, and then you have the parent that is generally the decision maker, the purchaser. What have you learned about those two different customers on how they make decisions around sort of dental care or brushing teeth or purchasing toothbrushes and.

Kimber Crandall (11:54)

Toothpaste? That's a great question. So what we have found is that for kids, they want it to be fun. They want the flavors to be fun. So, right. We've got peach rings, groovy grape bubblegum. And then for the parents, they want to know that it works. In fact, the science has proven to look so good that we had a lot of parents that were using peach rings and bubblegum themselves, and so they requested that we come out with an adult line. So we now have mint kits for adults as well. So the adults really care more about the science, and the kids care about the.

Neil Blumenthal (12:22)

Fun. You know, it does feel a lot like the early days of Warby Parker. And one of the things that I'm struck by in your story is that there's so many sort of messages and selling points. Right. That this makes time easier. This is actually better for your health and It's a cleaner product. We spent a lot of time at Warby trying to understand how do you prioritize a bunch of these different messages. And it should all come back to what is most important for the customer. We were trying to message glasses for a fraction of the price. Great style and design. Buying online, we have a social mission. For every pair of glasses we sell, we distribute one to someone in need. And after survey after survey, what we found was what mattered first and foremost was how these glasses look on your face. Second, price, third, quality, last, if at all, would be the social mission. So we almost never lead with the social mission. And often many of our customers don't find out about that until after they've purchased with us. So it's interesting you mentioned efficacy. If that is the most important thing, that might be what you lead with. One of the things that also I'm jealous of is that you can provide samples to people. Yes, yes. And you sell a product that has frequency and repeat use, whereas the average American buys glasses once every two.

Guy Raz (13:59)

Years. That's it. Right. So I totally agree with you, Neil. I mean, I feel like the other thing is it's a non fluoride product. Now I'm gonna just say this flat out. I use fluoride toothpaste. I will say that my dentist, this is very unusual, he is one of these rare dentist that doesn't use fluoride. So I know both sides of this world. Right. I don't have strong feelings on it either way. But people who do have strong feelings on it, that is a tribe and they, they share information, they amplify what works like. So I feel like you, you know, it's not like you need to change everyone's habits at once. You really need to lean into this tribe because the tribe that you're talking about amplifies these things in ways that other people don't. Does that make.

Kimber Crandall (14:46)

Sense?

Neil Blumenthal (14:47)

Definitely. What I might think about is who are these customer segments which are the biggest ones and sort of rank order them and go after them sort of piece by piece. So for example, if parents that don't want a fluoride free toothpaste is particularly large, how do you sort of use that messaging and go on as many parent podcasts as possible to speak about it or advertise on those mediums? And then the question is, okay, well how do you get this product in the hands of as many kids as possible? And that might be partnering with places where kids have birthdays and more and more stores and distribution. If most of the people already buy their toothpaste through existing stores. How can you be alongside where those other products are? Because at the end of the day, changing habits is really hard and you almost don't want to change. You want to take the world as it is and then sort of insert your product into.

Guy Raz (15:57)

It. Yeah. I mean there are probably millions, but you want to really focus on like 10,000 parents. Right. Who live on TikTok or in Facebook groups who sort of gather around some of these issues. Brushing fluoride free, et cetera. Sampling makes is to me, I completely agree with Neil. It's like sample, sample, sample. You can make these small packets and whoever is willing to give the daycare centers, swim schools, summer camps. Neil said birthday party goodie bags. Because what you have, your product essentially is a gummy toothpaste. But what it makes me think of. Neil and I were talking about this earlier off mic. Jeff Rader, who co founded Warby Parker and then went on to start Harry's, they have a product that they now bought called Lumi deodorant. Right, Neil? Is that.

Neil Blumenthal (16:47)

Right? Lumi.

Guy Raz (16:48)

Exactly. And Lumi deodorant I believe was started by a doctor. And that was the marketing of it was your doctor has solved under arm deodorant. What if you thought of your brand as the mom who finally fixed brushing? Something like.

Kimber Crandall (17:03)

That. I love that idea. Yeah. And partnering too with Dennis and orthodontists, endodontists. So that we have that science backing. Right. Because they are using it, they're liking it. I got a text from an endodontist the other day that said he has had major sensitivity issues. Nothing's worked for his teeth with cold and he's used Sensodyne, all the things. And this is finally breaking through for.

Guy Raz (17:24)

Him.

Kimber Crandall (17:24)

Amazing. So I think yeah, you're right. As we partner with more of those authority voices, that would be a great.

Neil Blumenthal (17:29)

Start. And there the question also is how important is the parents to have that credibility from the medical and dental community. At Warby Parker, for example, people generally trust glasses and you put it on and you can see it works. However, if you're going to go and get an eye exam and we now hire hundreds of doctors, it's really important to demonstrate, hey, these doctors are some of the best in the country. They're highly credentialed, they're using top of the line equipment. So again, depending on in that hierarchy of how people make decisions, right. Whether you want it blessed by the American Dental association or whatever group it is to give Added.

Guy Raz (18:13)

Credibility. Yeah. I mean, that may be tricky because of the fluoride issue. But another. I mean, building on that, right. This ingredient you're using, and I don't know it. Right. I'm sure I've heard of it. Nano hydroxy appetite.

Kimber Crandall (18:30)

Right.

Brian DeMent (18:31)

Nanohydroxyapatite.

Guy Raz (18:32)

Right. Okay. It may be worth really, you know, leaning into that as well. And you may already be doing that. But, you know, it sounds like there are plenty of dentists who are using this as a replacement for fluoride. So it seems to me like those are also the partners you want to try and reach out to and work with and just offer samples to them and let them pass them out in their.

Kimber Crandall (18:55)

Offices. Definitely. We especially find with pediatric dentists because their parent population is younger. Right. Like in their 30s, maybe low 40s. Those people are more aware of fluoride and nano hydroxyapatite and realize that there's an.

Neil Blumenthal (19:10)

Alternative. Another idea, because you were saying, how do you build a moment? And you know, we took advantage when there was a solar eclipse that was going to be across the whole continental U.S. so we created all these solar eclipse viewers, and we made them blue Warby blue, and we gave out thousands of them. If I think about where do I run the risk of cavities, for example, it's when I eat candy. And when do you eat candy the most? Perhaps it's around Halloween. So is there an opportunity to break through and create a moment when parents are worried my kids are gonna be bouncing off the wall? Cause they're e much candy. And is this bad, you know, for their teeth? You know, that might be a marketing moment. There might be a there there. But I think the bottom line is just, you know, when. Can you sort of insert yourself into the.

Kimber Crandall (20:08)

Conversation?

Guy Raz (20:09)

Yes. Yeah. You don't really need to convince all of America right away. Right. You really just need to get. And I think you're doing it. You need to convince one circle of parents who tell every other parent. Think of so many products we've done. Rxbar is a great example. They started with crossfitters and it just blew up from there. I think you really want to double down on the people who are attracted to what your value proposition is and let them be your force.

Kimber Crandall (20:36)

Multipliers. I love that idea. It would just be amazing, too, if we can. Yeah. Just get the word out through the people that are already using it, which is a lot of times what we find. Right. There was a big influencer who posted the other day about us, and I asked her I was like, hey, how'd you find out? And she said it was actually from one of her friends that came over to her house, brought it into her kitchen and said, try this right now. Your kids need this. So hopefully that'll just keep happening over and.

Guy Raz (20:59)

Over. Awesome. Kimber Crandall. The brand is called Pearl Pop. Good luck. Thanks so much for calling in. Thanks for coming to see me in San.

Kimber Crandall (21:05)

Francisco. Well, thank you so much for having me. And I can just only hope that we're gonna change toothpaste like Neil, like you changed eyewear. And just something I've learned from this podcast is if you don't dream and go for it, but we'll never.

Guy Raz (21:15)

Know. So we'll just never know. Good.

Kimber Crandall (21:17)

Luck. Thank you so much. Appreciate all the.

Neil Blumenthal (21:19)

Advice. All right, so great to meet.

Guy Raz (21:20)

You. Thank you. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. It feels pretty amazing when you and your team are batting around great ideas, but it can be frustrating when you're having trouble trouble executing them quickly. Do you wish your team could move at the speed of their ideas? Simply throwing AI at the problem without clarity doesn't help. It makes your process messier. Miro Changes the game Powered by AI Teamwork that normally takes weeks gets done in days. I know that Miro AI is great for summarizing interview notes and generating key takeaways. With the ability to organize my thoughts faster, tight deadlines aren't so intimidating. It recommends areas to double down, clarify inputs and add direct feedback. And you can build custom sidekicks that integrate into other workflows for exactly what your team needs. Spend time on building, not digging for information. Help your teams get great done with miro. Check out miro.com to find out how that's M I R O. Say you've always wanted to take that trip to Copenhagen just to soak up the design scene. Here's the thing, if you get smart with your money, you could do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money? Like building out that immersive, cutting edge media room or surprising your partner with a one of a kind weekend getaway? So use empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers today at empower.com, not an empower client, paid or sponsored. Emirates Premium Economy Class elevates the.

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Guy Raz (24:09)

Us. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Neil Blumenthal, co founder of Warby Parker, and we are taking your calls. And Neil, are you ready for our next.

Neil Blumenthal (24:28)

Call? Ready and.

Guy Raz (24:29)

Excited. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Neil Blumenthal, co founder of Warby Parker. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a line about your.

Brian DeMent (24:37)

Business. Hi, Guy. Hi, Neil. It's an honor to be on the show with you two legends today. My name is Brian Dement. I'm the CEO and co founder of Salt and Light Wellness. We are a three studio chain of wellness centers here in Southern California and we specialize in light.

Guy Raz (24:51)

Therapies. Awesome. Welcome to the show, Brian. So you have got three locations in Southern California around LA or where are.

Brian DeMent (24:57)

You? Yeah, we're kind of like wedged below LA in Orange county, but above San Diego in the Inland Empire.

Guy Raz (25:02)

Yeah. Okay. I love the light thing. I do my morning light dog walk every morning. You know, make sure to get the dopamine levels up and going. And it is actually really amazing and effective. Okay, so these are, this is light therapy. These are not like sun tanning salons. You go in and you, what, you sit in front of red lights and tell me a little bit more about what you do. Like, what's the.

Neil Blumenthal (25:23)

Experience? Yeah.

Brian DeMent (25:24)

Yeah. With our modern busy schedules, it's not always feasible for people to get outside at the right times of the day to get their proper doses of red light, infrared light, and a healthy dose of uv. So at Salt and Light, we make that easy. We mimic kind of the full outdoor exposure if you were to go to the beach, say, for example, because we also pair it with salt therapy and cold plunge for contrast with our with our infrared.

Guy Raz (25:48)

Light. You got a salt room. You got the cold plunge. Nice. I just did a cold plunge in the San Francisco Bay. It was so freaking cold. I can't believe I was in that water, but it was all.

Neil Blumenthal (25:58)

Right. So you probably felt great.

Guy Raz (25:59)

Afterwards. I felt amazing. It does really. You know, it reduces inflammation, lowers blood sugar. It all does all those things. Okay, Brian, tell me, how did you start the business? And give us a sort of the basic story.

Neil Blumenthal (26:11)

Here. Yeah.

Brian DeMent (26:12)

Yeah. So my wife and I, we founded it out of College in 2008. So, Neil, right there with you. When you guys started as well, we. We just always believed in sunshine. I was. I was an athlete growing up, and because my athletic background, we had this idea of the team room. Division 1 sports, professional sports, after they train, they have a place to go and recover. We're in a hobbyist culture as well, especially here in Southern California, and people treat their hobbies every bit as serious as a Division 1 athlete does in college. And adult hobbyists actually have the money to spend on their recovery and take care of themselves. And so that's the market that we really looked to integrate.

Guy Raz (26:51)

With. Yeah, I mean, it's cool because you think of, like, Stretch Lab, and we can talk more about that later. But, yeah, I mean, the fact that people wear. Whoops, there's, you know, even Hoka shoes were designed for people who wanted to train like professionals. Tell me a little bit about the business. How is the business doing? Are they. I mean, you've got three locations are. I'm assuming that they're sustainable, that you're turning a.

Brian DeMent (27:15)

Profit. Yeah, we opened as a red light and UV studio, but nobody knew what red light was in 2008. Our name used to be Perfect Tan. We would. We would. We knew the market understood tanning. We. That wasn't what I believed in. We would always make sure to coach people on appropriate times. We didn't run it like, you know, a fake and bake type of establishment, and I think that bore out results in the long run. But we actually rebranded to Salt and Light about three years ago. Rebranding and refocusing our marketing as the Salt and Light brand gave us a pop of about 30% over our previous.

Guy Raz (27:48)

Operations. Just out of curiosity, and you may not be able to talk about specifics, but roughly what you know in terms of revenue. Give me a range. What does one of you know these locations? What can they do a.

Brian DeMent (27:59)

Year? Yeah, one studio, our top performing studio, does about $575,000 per.

Guy Raz (28:04)

Year. Okay. Okay, great. Okay, so before we dive in further, tell us your.

Brian DeMent (28:07)

Question. Yeah, so I get about a dozen inquiries per week from people all around the country who want to open a salt and light. My question for you guys is, how do we properly vet these people, Especially with the volume. I mean, we're a fairly small operation, so a dozen per week is actually a lot for me. How do we properly vet these people to ensure that we're getting people who align with our brand values and that we can create sustainable.

Guy Raz (28:28)

Scaling? Awesome. Great question and a very solvable one. Neil, I want to bring you in first of all. Questions or thoughts for.

Neil Blumenthal (28:35)

Brian? Sure. Well, congratulations. I love the rebrand and it immediately evokes health and wellness for me. So exactly what the mission of the company is. I'm not an expert in franchising per se. Warby Parker owns and operates all of our own stores, of which we have over 300. We certainly go through quite a vetting process to hire our store leaders. And I actually still interview every single one.

Guy Raz (29:06)

Because.

Neil Blumenthal (29:07)

Wow. We think that the key to success is people and culture. And if you look at enduring brands, right, it all comes down to people and culture. And what is culture? It's shared values, shared rituals. Right. And a shared mission. So I think you're on the right track here in saying, like, hey, selecting is really important. So I think, I think the first thing is putting out into the world what the company stands for, what your mission and your values are. Then people are already self selecting and reaching out to you. Then do you actually want to put some barriers in place so that way you can narrow without investing too much time who you might want to work with and that might be an application process. It's interesting. Now, I would say that if you do license or franchise, your business model changes quite a bit. You now have a new customer and those customers are the franchisees. So it's just something to think about as you decide on your strategy. How do you want to be spending your time? And are you going to build a product for.

Guy Raz (30:24)

Franchisees? Yeah, Brian, I couldn't agree more with Neil's advice. We have an episode on Gymboree and Gymboree went into the franchising direction and the founder, she reached out to somebody who had expertise in franchising, which really helped the business. But that's down the road. I mean, in the short term, you know, as Neil said, you want to build some barriers in just to make your workflow more efficient. Right. So if there's inbound, you basically create a questionnaire with like 15 or 20 questions, ask about their business experience, their available capital, any demographic information on where they are, why they're motivated, and that alone, just that barrier to entry is going to eliminate like 60 to 70% of the impact. Because people who are just not going to bother filling it out. And then once somebody fills it out, you can go to the next step and actually have a conversation with them. And really what you're looking for is. Right. You know, are these people, do they believe in what you're doing? You know, not only are they coachable and are they somebody you want to work with, but do they really believe in this? Right. Because people who are looking for a passive income stream, that's not your person here. Right. You're still too early. You've got three locations. Those first five franchises, we've learned from all our interviews that we've done with franchise businesses on this show, they're critical. Those first five are going to define so much of the culture. They can elevate the brand, they can dilute it. They have such a huge impact. So you want to be really, really careful. Once you, let's say, land on somebody, you're interested, even before you hit the go button, you want to make sure that they do a shadowing period with you, that they spend time working the front desk, that they sit in on your meetings. And even then you want to figure out some kind of trial basis because it's a huge.

Brian DeMent (32:26)

Responsibility. Wow, that's. Yeah, hearing that's kind of like a breath of fresh air. I appreciate just, even the sifting the workflow that you, that you suggested there, and you said something about ensuring people are passionate not only about the leadership role and the operator role, but the branding side of it. For Neil, do you have, you know, I know there's companies that have, they're famous for the types of questions they ask in interviews. Do you have any kind of indicators of, wow, this person really gets the brand? Is there a specific type of question you would ask or something that, you know that this is the question that ensures there's.

Neil Blumenthal (32:58)

Alignment? Yeah, usually it's not one particular question, although I'll share an example. Sometimes I'll ask, you know, do you remember when you first heard about the brand and we're now 15 years in, so that, you know, question is perhaps not as relevant as it was, you know, five or 10 years ago, but it starts a conversation and I can start to suss out, are they a customer? Do they believe in our mission? Are they a glasses wearer and can really empathize with customers. So what it does is it immediately invites a conversation where the individual can start to share what they know and what they love about the brand. And frankly, if they don't know a lot, then how could they possibly love the brand or the mission? Right. They didn't do their homework, which if they didn't do their homework on interview with the CEO of the company. Am I going to trust them with the four walls of a store and managing.

Guy Raz (33:57)

People? Yeah. I mean, you ask them, what does salt and light mean to you? What does that phrase mean to you? Tell me about your own how light therapy solved challenges that you had. You know, you really want to interrogate their own personal wellness journey to see why they're, you know, they're interested and to gauge their passion. The other thing, I'm just curious, are you getting out inbound from people outside of.

Brian DeMent (34:24)

California? Yeah. Yeah. Last week I had a about an hour phone call or video call with a gentleman from Nashville, Arizona, Northern California. So yeah, it's, I mean obviously Northern California is in California, but yes, it's all.

Neil Blumenthal (34:37)

Around. What's funny to me is it's almost counterintuitive in that these are all places with lots of sun. I'm sitting here in New York and during the winter it gets dark at 4:30. Like I want you to open up here next to my.

Guy Raz (34:54)

Office. Yeah. You know, I think that if you down the road, if you do work with some of these franchisees, you might want to look at what orangetheory or Stretch Lab did, which is they built regional density first. You want to start by maybe building out 5 to 10 locations within an hour or two drive from HQ. Before you go to Nashville or Dallas or somewhere else, you really want to test the model and be able to really have oversight because down the road, if this does catch fire, you want to look at what other franchise brands have done, right. Like five guys. You're going to want to build like an academy where you train people where they learn about the science of light and then obviously the business model and how to get, you know, acquire members and you know the protocols and you know the history and the values and all those things. You're going to have to develop a very specific, disciplined program that's going to come way down the road. But even before you get there, you really want to think about keeping it really tight and close before you think about going out of state or even into Northern.

Neil Blumenthal (36:07)

California. Yeah. And being within close proximity allows you to provide greater support to the different locations and to physically be there and visit more.

Guy Raz (36:18)

Frequently.

Brian DeMent (36:19)

Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. And we have seen that in our, in our existing locations there is a bit of a network effect amongst the three, which is great. And yeah, I mean, we have, we're right next door to Orange county and San Diego county. So those, those probably are. Yeah. I appreciate the advice. That's probably a good market to move.

Guy Raz (36:34)

Into. Awesome, awesome. Brian DeMint. The brand is called Salt and Light Wellness. Good luck, man. Thanks so much for calling.

Brian DeMent (36:39)

In. Thank you so.

Guy Raz (36:39)

Much. Keep us posted. Yeah, thanks. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Neil Blumenthal, co founder of Warby Parker. And let's bring in our next caller.

Tanner McCraney (37:17)

Hello. Hey, Neil and Guy, My name is Tanner McCraney. I'm calling out of Nashville, Tennessee and I am the founder and president of the Cowboy Country Club, which is our made up country club and golf brand that invites anyone to join and claim membership to our members. Represents those who can seamlessly transition from the country to the country.

Guy Raz (37:37)

Club. Okay. Welcome to the showtime. So wait, it's a made up country club. What do you do? What do you.

Tanner McCraney (37:46)

Sell? So our business kind of has two sides. We've got the merch and then we've got the membership. But we don't really say that we have customers. Everyone who buys something is a member. And so for clothing, it's everything that you'd find in a pro shop. Hats, quarter zips, hoodies, vests, T shirt, pickleball paddles. And then we've got the membership.

Guy Raz (38:03)

Stuff. Oh, wow. So you actually, as a member of this virtual club, what do you.

Tanner McCraney (38:07)

Get? So our membership box is a subscription where you actually get a bag tag with your name on it and member number. It doesn't actually mean anything. It's just for fun. But you also get a head cover golf towel, you get tees, basically a swag bag to trick out your golf.

Guy Raz (38:23)

Bag. All right. Cowboy Country Club, a made up golf club. And you sell hats and apparel. And tell me the story about that. Like how did this.

Tanner McCraney (38:34)

Happen? Absolutely. So growing up, my parents were members of a golf club. So I had a community to play with and talk about golf with. And then I went off to College had a great community there to play with. Then after graduation, I went and took a finance job in Atlanta. And being there, I didn't have anyone to play with. I felt excluded from the game, nowhere to call home. And I figured that I could solve my own problem of feeling excluded by creating my own country club and inviting people to join. It was a crazy idea, but we built a social media following where I told my story and talked about why this was something that I was so passionate about. And our first drop sold out in 12.

Guy Raz (39:14)

Seconds. Wow. How did you get. So you keep saying we. Is there more than.

Tanner McCraney (39:18)

You? Well, I just call it the club, the.

Guy Raz (39:19)

Members. It's the we. It's you. Tanner is the we. Okay, I got you. And how long have you been doing this now? How many.

Tanner McCraney (39:25)

Years? Almost three.

Guy Raz (39:26)

Years. And what do you do? What are you doing in sales per year right.

Tanner McCraney (39:30)

Now? So this year, if it shakes out how it should, we should be at around 1.5.

Guy Raz (39:35)

Million. Wow, that's incredible. And this is entirely direct to.

Tanner McCraney (39:39)

Consumer. No, not necessarily. So last year we started our wholesale business and we're in around 100 retail stores.

Guy Raz (39:46)

Nationwide. And how did you get people to even become aware of this? What did you.

Tanner McCraney (39:51)

Do? We took on some really great mentors that talked about us going to trade shows. And so our first trade show was in Dallas, Texas. We set up a booth, had no idea what we were going to.

Guy Raz (40:01)

Do. Again, the we was you or was it.

Tanner McCraney (40:02)

You? So I actually hired my best friend from high school to take over our wholesale department, but him and I went to Texas and set up a booth and were able to get. Get 30 retailers, and that just snowballed into where we're at.

Guy Raz (40:13)

Today. Wow. And so. And okay, so that's amazing. You created this brand out of nothing and you've already. You're doing one and a half to 2 million sales a year. Before we dive in further, what's your question for.

Tanner McCraney (40:25)

Us? One thing that I've noticed about myself personally is I struggle to delegate. And so my question to you guys is, in looking to scale, how do you let go of the day to day core responsibilities in order to build a scalable team and a scalable role.

Guy Raz (40:40)

Brand? Got it. Okay. Neil Blumenthal, I want to bring you in Cowboy Country.

Neil Blumenthal (40:45)

Club. Congratulations on all the success to, to date and to your question about, like, how do you delegate? What? I've always found that delegation is hard. Right. Especially when you're building a business yourself and you really want things to be done right and up to a very high standard. And sometimes you're doing things that you've never learned how to do. So then it's hard to hire somebody to do something that you don't know how to do. How do you even evaluate somebody for that? And what I would do early on is meet with a lot of other entrepreneurs or just people in sort of similar industries to better understand what the different departments a company has and what the different roles folks had. So a role like a merchant, and that could mean different things at different companies. So if you speak to three different companies, you might have three different versions of merchandising. But at the end of the day, merchants are setting the product strategy, they're determining the collection. And I found that the better that I understood individual roles and the more comfortable that I came to an organizational structure then that made it easier to let go of certain roles and responsibilities because I grew more comfortable with the work that needed to be done. So that made it easier to write a position description to evaluate somebody and hire somebody to do that.

Tanner McCraney (42:19)

Work. And you're right on the money there, because it seems like I'm so stuck working in the business rather than on the business. And so you're absolutely right that. That taking those roles and looking out to hire is the right place I need to be.

Guy Raz (42:33)

In. Yeah, I mean, you are. All right. The thing you want to sounds like what you want to do is you want to build the culture, the community and demand. And Neil, this is probably. I mean, I'm curious about your. You started your business with partners and everybody had different skill sets. It seems like maybe in your case, Tanner, you want to look for like a product and operations person. Right. Like that's really not necessarily a designer or. But somebody who has, let's say, five years of experience in apparel. Like somebody who's now sort of mid level working at a business that's like, let's say two to three rungs above yours, because that's. You just want somebody with some experience in apparel who can handle operations and product and who can develop relationships with factories and figure out the margins and the supply chain stuff and forecasting. So it sounds like that's what is keeping you sort of occupied right now.

Neil Blumenthal (43:31)

Yep. Where we've had trouble hiring at times is when we try and hire somebody that comes from a much larger company because they might thrive in an existing environment where systems are fully built out and processes are fully established. Whereas you're in a growth stage now and you literally have to write the HR manual. You have to figure out the.

Tanner McCraney (44:00)

Flow. Yeah, we have.

Neil Blumenthal (44:01)

Nothing. Right. You have to be coming up with pricing. You have to literally be talking with the warehouse and figuring out how to connect your systems with the warehouse. So you really need entrepreneurial folks. Your first 10 hires have to be really entrepreneurial and problem solvers. And those folks tend to be at smaller.

Tanner McCraney (44:21)

Organizations. Absolutely. I think that we need to kind of break down the business. What roles am I the best at or want to be an expert in? And then look for those people, like you were saying, that could come in and make a difference. And one of our biggest goals for the next year is to bring fulfillment and warehousing in house, because We've been using a 3PL since we've started, essentially. And I think getting our entire team in one location would be a great way to kind of build a culture and then bring people into.

Neil Blumenthal (44:51)

That. Having people in one location definitely is key to culture. And you saw that the companies that seemed to function best during the pandemic, for example, had earned all the goodwill from a strong culture and strong relationships before the pandemic. So that way, when people did go to work remote, they were able to sort of leverage a lot of that culture that had already been built. One thing that I would just think about long and hard is what are the things that you want to be expert in and that you should do yourselves versus what are things that might be a commodity and can be outsourced? And, you know, your brand, the design of your products. Right. That is core to you guys, and that's unique. Packing a hat or a shirt into a box and shipping that to a customer, that might not be something that you want to do in house, because there's lots of experts that can do that, and they may have economies of scale and could even do it cheaper than you could do it.

Guy Raz (46:05)

Yourself. Neil, just a quick question. I mean, is there a world where at this level, maybe he even thinks about, like, a fractional head of ops? He's still small. One and a half to 2 million is great, but it may make sense to tap into a freelancer at this point, or what do you.

Neil Blumenthal (46:25)

Think? Yeah, I think that's a great idea, Especially if you can define specific projects. That works really well for contract work and getting somebody to come on for a period of time. They have some pattern recognition because they've seen this before. And, you know, not everything needs to be permanent. Not every relationship. Right. Needs to extend for a decade. You know, what I often tell our team at Warby is this train is Going for a very long journey, and people get on at different points in the journey and they get off at different points in the journey, and that's completely okay. And we can stay close with those folks and we hope that their time at Warby, they're thriving, they're learning, they're growing, but people leave and the needs of the businesses change over.

Tanner McCraney (47:20)

Time. That's something I struggle with, is I want to find the perfect person for permanent and knowing that it's trained, like you said, is a good.

Guy Raz (47:31)

Perspective. Yeah. The other thing I say is that you want to ask that person, you know, some basic questions, like, what does Cowboy Country Club sell? And if they say, well, you sell hats and shirts and, you know, and that's not the right fit, you want somebody who understands that you're selling an identity, you're belonging to this club. It's sort of a tongue in cheek wink and a nod thing, but it's something deeper. Right. You're building a brand. You're not just a lifestyle brand. Yeah, lifestyle brand. Yeah. And that's the person that you want to take a chance.

Tanner McCraney (48:07)

On. Absolutely. I really appreciate it. All great.

Guy Raz (48:11)

Advice. Yeah. Awesome. Well, the brand is called Cowboy country Club. Tanner McCraney, thanks for calling in. Good luck, man.

Tanner McCraney (48:16)

Thanks. Thank you.

Guy Raz (48:17)

Guys. Yeah. Wow. Super cool. Neil, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question I've been asking everyone who joins me on the show, which is knowing what you know now, if you could go back and say, hey, here's what I know and here's some advice I'm going to give you. Neil, 15 years ago, is there something that would have been.

Neil Blumenthal (48:37)

Helpful? I think it was continue to build relationships with folks that were a couple steps ahead of you, because that's where we tended to get the most sort of actionable advice from, from founders who were a few years in front of us and could share lessons of failures. Speaking with the founders of Bonobos, for example, who were also building a brand and raising venture capital, and they had given us tons of advice which was super helpful speaking to friends that had worked in venture, because it was also unusual that not a pure tech company was raising capital. So we had to learn the language of venture capital to raise money for a tech enabled brand. None of us had run an e commerce business before, so speaking to folks that had run e commerce businesses. So I wish that this podcast was available back then because it would have made our lives a lot.

Guy Raz (49:45)

Easier. Well, that's why we call you guys to help the people now. Thank you. So much for coming back on the show, Neil. It's great, great, great having you back and hopefully we'll have you back again.

Neil Blumenthal (49:54)

Again. Thank you for having.

Guy Raz (49:56)

Me. It's Neil Blumenthal, co founder and co CEO of Warby Parker. And by the way, if you haven't heard the Warby Parker episode, go back and check it out. Incredible story. So good. Here's one of my favorite moments from that episode. We hadn't told anyone that the site was.

Neil Blumenthal (50:10)

Live. We didn't want to drive any traffic to it because we weren't sure it would.

Guy Raz (50:13)

Work. So I get an order and then 10 minutes later we get another order and then another order and then another order and we kind of go from this feeling of elatement to oh crap, we don't have this much inventory. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Diva Grant, Casey Herman, J.C. howard, Chris Masini, Kathryn Cipher, Kerry Thompson, and Rommel Wood. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Line app. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com.