Advice Line with Niraj Shah of Wayfair

Summary

---

How I Built This with Guy Raz

Advice Line with Niraj Shah of Wayfair

Release Date: October 30, 2025

Guest: Niraj Shah, CEO & Co-Founder of Wayfair
Host: Guy Raz

---

Episode Overview

This episode of "How I Built This" features the Advice Line format, where Guy Raz sits down with Wayfair co-founder and CEO Niraj Shah to field questions and offer advice to a diverse group of entrepreneurs. The central theme revolves around navigating early-stage business challenges—messaging, funding, growth, partnerships, and founder work-life balance—through the perspectives of both veteran founders and new entrepreneurs.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up with Niraj Shah & Wayfair’s Origins

[03:07–08:54]

• Guy and Niraj reminisce on Wayfair’s journey from a collection of one-product niche websites (e.g., dinnerplates.com, racksandstands.com) to launching Wayfair.com as a one-stop online home goods destination.
• On long-term co-founder relationships:
  • Niraj credits complementary skills and mutual respect as the bedrock:

    “You really need to trust each other's judgment and be a team that way. I don't know that there's always an entire science in figuring that out. It's an art and science thing both.” (05:13 – Niraj Shah)

• Wayfair’s competitive advantage:
  • Niraj highlights combining large-scale operations (technology, logistics, advertising budgets) with a startup’s agility and focus.
  • Staying home-goods focused gives Wayfair an edge: specialist scale versus upstarts and retail giants.
• Recent expansion into brick-and-mortar:
  • Wayfair’s first major store (150,000 sq ft) opened outside Chicago, with more coming.
  • Physical stores offer a new way to bring the brand to life, offer in-person services, and showcase product breadth.

---

2. Caller #1: Cook Stix – Messaging for a Novel Product

[09:10–16:42]
Valerie Zweig, Cook Stix (Washington, D.C.)

• Business: Dehydrated instant stock "sticks," an alternative to boxed stock and bouillon cubes.
• Challenge: Consumers and retailers misinterpret Cook Stix as a protein beverage, not as a cooking ingredient.

Advice & Insights

• Literal messaging often trumps clever branding for new categories.
  • Niraj Shah:

    “Sometimes when something is novel, the best way to communicate it is to be literal... Saying, you know, add 16 ounces of water and your chicken stock’s ready to go... The literal explanation is the one that just becomes intuitive to people.” (13:56 – Niraj Shah)

• Taglines—don’t overthink cleverness:
  • Valerie’s “Think outside the stock box” is fun, but Guy suggests even more basic, direct messaging.
• Education is ongoing:
  • Founders may need to demonstrate product use themselves (e.g., through social media).

Notable Quote

• Guy Raz:

  “Maybe, as Neeraj says, you have to hit people over the head with it, right? Because you are—you’re teaching people how to use it every time they see it. Maybe you create a tagline like ‘your carton of stock now in a stick.’” (15:25)

---

3. Caller #2: Daily Shade – When to Seek Funding vs. Bootstrapping

[22:14–34:22]
Bree Van Leeuwen, Daily Shade Sunscreen (Orem, Utah)

• Business: “True mineral” sunscreen for kids that applies clear, developed as a reaction to harmful chemical sunscreens.
• Challenge: Wants to launch more products but must balance high production costs and a limited marketing budget. When is it time to seek investment (and possibly give up equity) vs. continued bootstrapping?

Advice & Insights

• Explore non-dilutive financing:
  • Neeraj suggests targeting large retail purchase orders, which could be used for loan collateral instead of selling equity.
  • Guy suggests exploring revenue-based financing options (e.g., Clearco, Shopify) or SBA loans.
• Raise equity only at the right inflection point:
  • Consider a friends-and-family round or convertible note when the business is at a stage where capital can significantly accelerate growth.
• Bootstrapping has benefits:
  • Niraj’s personal story:

    “Don’t take the money until you’re really ready to... Even if that means you might move a little slower, that’s often a better decision.” (30:24 – Niraj Shah)

• Be strategic about inventory:
  • Wayfair didn’t buy inventory at start; they drop-shipped orders, delaying the need for big investments.

Notable Quote

• Neeraj Shah:

  “Often that’s a better decision—move a little slower, but... when the time is right to raise money, it’ll be because that money, you have a very clear use for it that you know will get you to the next level.” (30:24)

---

4. Caller #3: Her House – When to Leave the Day Job for Your Startup

[36:29–47:47]
Tess Millhollen, Her House (San Antonio, Texas)

• Business: App-based community for verified solo female travelers to find safe, free stays with one another worldwide.
• Challenge: As a solo founder with a full-time software sales job (remote, well-paid, with benefits), how to know when to take the leap and focus full-time on Her House?

Advice & Insights

• Separate conviction and financial readiness:
  • Assess whether the business vision justifies the risk and whether you have the resources or means to absorb the financial consequences.

  • “You want to make sure it’s not reckless as well.” (44:28 – Neeraj Shah)

• Consider a gradual transition:
  • Explore part-time arrangements at your current job, especially if it’s commission-based; companies may work with valued employees.
• Leverage outsourcing:
  • Tess has already hired a part-time community manager, freeing her to focus on higher-value tasks.
• No universal income threshold—personal comfort with risk and progress is key.

Notable Quotes

• Guy Raz:

  “I don’t think there’s any quote-unquote right income threshold. It’s really—it’s such a personal decision.” (42:14)

• Neeraj Shah:

  “Often if you don’t pursue something you want, you’ll have regrets, but obviously, if you do something reckless, you could have different regrets.” (44:14)

---

5. Reflections on the Entrepreneurial Journey

[47:48–50:42]

• Guy and Niraj reflect on the early, grind-heavy days of Wayfair, balancing the need for stamina with the necessity of patience.

• Key wisdom:

  “Nothing’s ever linear and up and to the right... Often those learnings lead you to the next aha moment... you need to pick something you love. And... trying to rush your way to the big win, that’s really not a thing...” (49:07 – Niraj Shah)

---

Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Co-Founder Dynamics:

  “You really need to trust each other's judgment and be a team that way... It’s an art and science thing both.” (05:13 – Niraj Shah)

• On Literal Messaging:

  “When something is novel, the best way to communicate it is to be literal.” (13:56 – Niraj Shah)

• On Bootstrapping:

  “Don’t take the money until you’re really ready to... Even if that means you might move a little slower.” (30:24 – Niraj Shah)

• On Startup Transitions:

  “You want to make sure it’s not reckless as well.” (44:28 – Neeraj Shah)

• On Success Myths:

  “Nothing’s ever linear and up and to the right... trying to rush your way to the big win, that’s really not a thing...” (49:07 – Niraj Shah)

---

Important Timestamps

• Wayfair’s origin story & co-founder relationship: 03:07–05:34
• Competitive advantages & brick-and-mortar expansion: 05:34–08:54
• Caller #1 Cook Stix: 09:10–16:42
• Caller #2 Daily Shade Sunscreen: 22:14–34:22
• Caller #3 Her House: 36:29–47:47
• Final reflection & advice for early-stage founders: 47:48–50:42

---

Tone & Style

The entire episode is friendly, encouraging, and practical—Guy Raz’s signature style is inquisitive, supportive, and often humorous, while Niraj Shah is pragmatic, candid, and solution-focused. Both consistently empathize with the challenges of entrepreneurship, offer concrete next steps, and remind callers about the unpredictable but rewarding nature of the founder’s journey.

---

This summary covers all essential entrepreneurial questions and advice in this episode, so new listeners can easily gather both the practical guidance and the spirit of the conversation without missing a beat.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Your AI agents make your teams more productive, right? But if they aren't connected to the rest of your business, how productive can they really make your teams? Any business can use AI. IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business. Lets create smarter business IBM AI companies have unique business models, each with distinct billing needs. Stripe is the go to choice for AI leaders from early stage startups to scaled enterprises. Whether it's OpenAI offering tiered plans based on user needs or cursor implementing flexible billing structures for code access, redefining the future requires sophisticated business models. With Stripe billing, you can support any business model from credit based to sales, negotiated contracts and easily align your monetization strategy with customer value. Join the ranks of 78% of the Forbes AI 50 and millions of businesses worldwide that trust Stripe to help them build more profitable, scalable businesses. Discover [e-mail].

[Experian Advertiser]

Look, it's okay to make some financial mistakes. We've all missed payments, signed up for cards we didn't need, or ignored our credit scores. You're not alone. That's why you need Experian, your big financial friend. The Experian app helps you check your FICO score, find ways to save, and get matched with credit card offers that fit your needs. Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. So yeah, it's okay if you haven't been the best with your finances. That's why you've got Experian on your side. Download the app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores.

[Guy Raz]

Foreign hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Neeraj Shah, CEO and Co founder of Wayfair Neeraj. Welcome back to the show, guy.

[Neeraj Shah]

Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

[Guy Raz]

You were first on the Show Back in 2018, a long time ago, and it's an amazing story. You told us about how you and your college roommate Steve co founded, like, all these businesses together out of college when you guys are in your 20s. And then you came up with the idea of launching hundreds of separate websites. You had dinnerplates.com, you had racksandstands.com, you had justshagrugs.com even told us about a website that you had where you sold birdhouses, only birdhouses. And then grandfather clocks. Amazing. Just all these different businesses selling just those things.

[Neeraj Shah]

Exactly. That's kind of what led to creating Wayfair, is we sort of ended up working our way through all of HomeGoods one category at a time. We ended up with, as you said, over 200 websites. And then we thought the big opportunity would be to be known as a destination for all those categories rather than having them in separate sites.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Neeraj Shah]

Then that's when, you know, 10 years into the business, in 2011, we launched.

[Guy Raz]

Wayfair.com and if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it, the original episode from 2018 in the show notes. It's really, really an awesome episod. Neeraj, we have not talked. I don't think we've talked to you since or checked in with you in a bunch of years. You are still with Wayfair. You're still the CEO. Steve, your co founder, is also with the company's co chairman. How do you guys make it work? 27 years of working together. And I think you first met each other at, like, a summer high school program, right? Like a long time ago.

[Experian Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Neeraj Shah]

So it was a. It was a program actually at Cornell where we went to college between our junior and senior years of high school.

[Guy Raz]

Crazy. Yeah. What's the secret? I mean, why, you know, there's so many. We've done a bunch of co founders, we've done co founder splits, and, you know, what do you think it is that makes it work?

[Neeraj Shah]

Well, I think what we found is that we've both always been drawn a little bit to different areas of the business. So Steve's always been very involved with the technology side of our business, and we've always been very technology oriented as a company. And then I've always been drawn a little more to the business side. But then we both really respect each other's Business judgment. And so it's been a very easy partnership as we got into it. Ultimately you need to find somebody who's just a great partner, meaning you have to be interested in doing complementary things. But then you really need to trust each other's judgment and be a team that way. And I don't know that there's always an entire science in figuring that out. It's an art and science thing both.

[Guy Raz]

And there's luck too.

[Neeraj Shah]

Exactly.

[Guy Raz]

I wonder how you, you're a big brand. Wayfair is huge. How do you stay ahead of the competition, even not just from the big retailers and online giants, but from startups that are starting to scale?

[Neeraj Shah]

So we try to combine what I'd say is the best of two worlds. So one is we have enough scale to have, you know, a 2,500 person technology team and we have enough scale to have a 25 million square foot logistics network that's warehouses and transportation delivery.

[Guy Raz]

Operations and, and warehouses all over the.

[Neeraj Shah]

US in our network, I think we probably have something like 17 or 18 warehouses that are like a million square feet each. So these are really, really big facilities. Then we have something like 75 smaller buildings which are the transportation terminals from which the trucks that would deliver the large items to someone's home go out from every day. So I think what we're trying to do is combine the benefits of scale. Those are like two examples of the scale. The third would be the fact that we spend over a billion dollars on advertising a year with what is a much more entrepreneurial and sort of startup type mentality in how we drive the business. And so, yeah, when you can couple sort of the resources of a bigger business, but with the agility and the ambition of a smaller business, I think you can get sort of this special thing which just lets you move fast and do big things both. And then we stay focused on home goods. So what we don't do is let ourselves get distracted by starting to do too many things because home goods is over half a trillion dollars between the four countries we operate in. Then all of a sudden we have the specialist benefit versus the Amazons and the Walmarts of the world and we have the scale benefit versus the upstarts who maybe are focused on the same exact market as us, but they don't have the ability to do the same things for the customer. When you talk about technology resources or you talk about the logistics needs, et.

[Guy Raz]

Cetera, you've done something interesting in the last, I think, year, which is you opened your first brick and mortar store in Illinois, outside of Chicago, I think. And then you're planning on opening another one in Atlanta and New York and Denver. You were online retailers back in the day where people were still scared to give their credit cards, you know, in the Internet back in like 2005 and 6. Tell me about going into physical retail stores.

[Neeraj Shah]

We're super excited about it. And you're exactly right. We opened our first large format Wayfair store a year ago in May. It's in Wilmette, which is in the northern suburbs of Chicago. It's 150,000 square feet. So to give you a sense like that's a very large format store. And what it's. What we're able to do there is showcase all the product categories so that for customers when they come there and they can see the entirety of what Wayfair can offer.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I mean, it's like, just to put it in perspective, that's like the size of a Costco. Yes, it's enormous.

[Neeraj Shah]

It's very big. But that's kind of what it takes to really showcase all the categories we're in. And for the customer, they want that type of experience. Because if you're buying a sectional, you need to see a variety of sectionals and then if you're looking at bathroom faucets, you need to see a variety of those. And what we found is that the store works great because people know who Wayfair is from the fact that we've been around for a while and we have scale and we advertise, but the ability now to work with someone who can help give you design guidance or if you want to pursue financing for a project, or if you want to work with a kitchen cabinet designer, we can do all those things in person. So it makes the brand come to life in a whole new way. And that's why, as you said, we have a pipeline of additional stores coming.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Neeraj, you ready to take some calls?

[Neeraj Shah]

Absolutely. Excited to.

[Guy Raz]

All right, awesome. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with Neeraj Shah, co founder of of course, Wayfair. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just one line about your business, please.

[Valerie Zweig]

Hi Guy and Neeraj, I am Valerie Zweig. I am calling in from Washington D.C. i'm the co founder of Cook Stix, which is a new way to stock your pantry. Our instant stock sticks replace wasteful cartons and chemical laden bouillon with a clean, convenient and delicious stock option for home cooks.

[Guy Raz]

All right. Welcome to the show, Valerie. So, Cook Stix, what is it? It's a chicken stock. Describe it.

[Valerie Zweig]

Yeah, it's dehydrated chicken stock. So we're calling it an ingredient line. Because while we are starting with chicken stock, we will into other ingredients. It's really just. We're starting with three dehydrated chicken stocks.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so instead of buying the like, box of chicken stock, if you do use that, you just buy yours and you mix it with hot water and you've got the stock.

[Valerie Zweig]

Exactly. My co founder and I, my cousin Taryn Pellicona and I started a chicken soup business about nine years ago in D.C. we have a chicken soup delivery business called Prescription Chicken. We have chicken soup in national grocery stores as well. And through our time, we spent a lot of time shipping liquid across the country.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, it's heavy, expensive, all of that. Not good for the environment. Right?

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yeah.

[Valerie Zweig]

And we happen to also be avid home cooks and we know the importance of great chicken stock. But we, you know, we have a busy life and we would sometimes lean on those boxes of chicken stock and you know, we would sort of talk and both open our fridges and say, gosh, there's yet another box of chicken stock that I used most of it and it's wasting in my fridge. And we said, you know, there's gotta be a better way for this. And so we said, you know, why does it have to come liquefied? Why can't we just provide a product that you add water, use exactly what you need and cook Stix was born.

[Guy Raz]

And then make your risotto or make your soups or whatever.

[Valerie Zweig]

And you can season vegetables, you can make high protein vinaigrettes. Like there's sort of all sorts of things that you can do.

[Guy Raz]

Well, I'm a chicken stock maker and I would use this product. Cause in a pinch. But I always have in the freezer because I always take a chicken carcass and put in my instant pot with water. But this is a great solution for a lot of people if you do it. Especially because that stock is sitting on the shelf in those cartons for who knows how long.

[Valerie Zweig]

And it's watery. It doesn't really have great flavor. And bouillon is a light format product, but it's chemically and it's salty and it's not actually leaning on flavor.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, it doesn't taste real. All right, what's your question for Neeraj?

[Valerie Zweig]

So Cook Stix is an instant cooking stock, but we're discovering that retailers and shoppers are Misidentifying how to use it. So we'll hear people say, oh, is it a protein beverage? Or, oh, you should have more protein in it. Now, despite having the word cook in the name, they don't seem to get that this has been created as an ingredient for cooking. And so we're a little stumped and would love tips on how we can message and educate both consumers and retailers that cook Stix is an innovative ingredient. So a new format for sort of a classic product and a replacement for the standard carton of stock.

[Guy Raz]

Interesting. Okay, Neeraj, before we answer Valerie's question, thoughts, questions for her.

[Neeraj Shah]

Well, one question I have is, are there some specific things you tried that didn't work to help convey what it is, or is this a new problem you're just discovering now it's a new problem.

[Valerie Zweig]

We just launched the product, so we just got to market in late June. We hit sort of Mid Atlantic Whole Foods stores and Amazon. And it is an interesting reading. A lot of the Amazon reviews and feedback, you start to sort of pick up things and it's like, okay, our initial sort of Amazon marketing, we missed the opportunity to communicate to people, oh, this is equal to a box of stock. And so we sort of went back to square one and made an ad that said one stick equals one box of stock. And that has helped in sort of the understanding of the product. But the sort of default is like, oh, well, this is a beverage. And it's like, well, it can be, but it's not. That's a byproduct. That's not the main point.

[Guy Raz]

I have a question for you. There are these packets, right, that are more like protein broths. And I have used them because I'm trying to get more protein in. As we all know, this is not the direction you are headed or want to head in, or is it?

[Valerie Zweig]

It's not. So really, we are competing against the box of stock. So the powdered protein beverages that are out there, they're not conducive to cooking. They have to be something that you want to drink, right, to get your protein. And so it has to be something that has sort of more of an aggressive flavor profile. As you and any sort of person who cooks knows, chicken stock is not meant to be sort of the leader. It's meant to be sort of that strong foundational cooking, like salt, right? It's going to help sort of elevate the rest of it. And so we want to create something that is a better box of stock that is that thing that everybody uses In, I mean, every dish. Right?

[Guy Raz]

All right, I have some near. I've got a bunch of thoughts, but you are so creative with what you guys do. Please, I want to hear from you first.

[Neeraj Shah]

So this is going to sound very rudimentary, but one thing we've seen over the years, sometimes when something is novel, the best way to communicate it is to be literal. You know, on the front of it. Just saying, you know, add 16 ounces of water and, you know, your chicken stock's ready to go. Or add 32 ounces or whatever. Because the literal. What we found with marketing, sometimes when something is novel, the literal explanation is the one that just becomes intuitive to people. And then you can then go with the imagination after that. But if you don't start with the literal, it's hard to grab. It can be hard to grab.

[Valerie Zweig]

It's so true. And it's funny, you know, when you start, you work so hard on the branding, and we want the imagery and we want to catch the eye, but the reality is we need to shrink the cute little chicken on the front. We need to increase the instant chicken stock. So you're right. Literal is the way to go. Simple. Just communicate clearly.

[Guy Raz]

And your packaging does say cooking stock. Instant cooking stock on it already.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

It does.

[Guy Raz]

It does have that there. I mean, look, you know, this. We've had this too, with lots of products where people introduce something new and they have to educate people. I mean, I remember we did Guayaqui Yerba mate, okay? Which is now a massive brand. It is a national distribution. Hundreds of millions of dollars in sales. They had to for like, 20 years, literally. They were going around door to door to festivals trying to get people to drink yerba mate, right? Until they just. They hit a tipping point. This is easier because people know what chicken stock is. But maybe, as Neeraj says, you have to hit people over the head with it, right? Because you are. You're teaching people how to use it every time they see it. Maybe your tag, you create a tagline like you're carton of chicken stock now in a stick. Or, you know.

[Valerie Zweig]

Well, it's funny, we were saying our tagline is think outside the stock box, which is nice.

[Guy Raz]

It's cute.

[Valerie Zweig]

But again, is that too clever?

[Guy Raz]

It might be too clever. It's very clever. I mean, think like, I'm not as clever. I'm dumb. So just I'm gonna give you, like, literally, like, cook stick, instant stock for cookie. Well, you say that on the package, but just something like that. I also. Have you gu. Been doing Anything on social media around, you know, how to use it or how you use it.

[Valerie Zweig]

We have, yes. So we've been doing a lot of social media and it's interesting. Right. So we need to work more on us as founders, doing our own, you know, education.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Valerie Zweig]

It's funny, I mean, as a chicken soup product, we always sort of said, like, we don't want. It's not about us. Right. Like, this is about you and what you need. If you're not feeling well, we have chicken soup for you. We're not going to make it about us. However, in this type of product, it is a little bit more cooking focused. And so we do need to lead the narrative in terms of this is how you use.

[Guy Raz]

Use it.

[Valerie Zweig]

This is what we use it in. Because it is about, like, just showing how easy it is to use and getting people to also adopt it and sort of communicate that with them.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Valerie Zweig, co founder of Cook Stix. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.

[Valerie Zweig]

Thanks so much, guys.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Thank you. Neeraj, do you do any who does cooking at your house?

[Neeraj Shah]

Well, I dabble, but I would say my wife definitely is the much better cook. There's really no debate on that.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. I'm telling you, chicken stock is like, it's like critical. It's like a critical ingredient. Seriously, you may have experienced this if you just boil rice in water, it's just rice and water. And if you just boil it in chicken stock, it's like 20 levels better.

[Neeraj Shah]

Exactly.

[Guy Raz]

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. This episode of How I Built this was brought to you by Square. In Square's new series, the Way Up, I sit down with six local businesses. I chart the entrepreneur's journey, the hurdles and the highs, and how Square played a part in helping the business grow. Think about a thriving local business you admire. Maybe it's a great boutique with the softest towels or a local cafe that has the best scones. Many of these businesses trust Square to help manage their operations and grow. For instance, I absolutely love talking to the father daughter duo behind Vala's Pumpkin Patch. They started with a tiny plot of land growing pumpkins, and now they make pies and ciders and welcome up to 20,000 people in a single day. And that growth, it was made seamless by Square. Hear the journeys of six rising American businesses. Visit square.comgobuilt to learn more. That's s q u a r e.com go built learn how square can help your business on the way up. You know, as someone who's built an entire career around curiosity, I find myself asking questions even in the quietest moments of my day. Whether I'm walking my dog in the morning or just reading a good book, my mind is always wondering about the why behind things. Which is exactly how Claude has become such an incredible collaborator in my daily life. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough, the thinking partner that works with you to explore the things that fascinate you. Take last night while making dinner, I found myself wondering about the science behind making the perfect crispy roast chicken. And this all led to an enlightening conversation with Claude that went far beyond basic cooking science. We explored the Maillard reaction, moisture management, salting and brining, and even the history of how humans discovered the cooking process. It was really cool stuff, and I love how Claude matches my natural curiosity rather than trying to shut it down with quick answers. Like when I recently noticed all the different layers in a cliff face during a hike, Claude transported me back in time. It helped me explore how these rocks formed under ancient seas and all the forces that transformed them over millions of years. Whether you're researching outdoor curiosity spirals or working through complex creative challenges, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems together. And it helps me see connections I never would have made on my own, turning casual observations into moments of genuine discovery. Ready to explore what's possible? Try Claude for free at Claude AI hibt. That's Claude AI hibt To start thinking deeper today, this show is presented to you by American Express. Building a business is never a straight line. It's full of unexpected turns, and the right tools can make all the difference along the way. That's why when I talk to entrepreneurs about how they keep growing, American Express often comes up the new enhancements to the Amex Business Platinum Card are designed for how business owners actually work today, offering them more value, flexibility and rewards than ever before. With two times membership rewards points on select business purchases, those everyday choices can fuel even more growth. And when it's time to hit the road or the skies, Business Platinum Card members have access to the largest global airport lounge network of any credit card card. It's a way to stay productive even while traveling. Plus, the flexible spending limit changes as your business does, adapting to where you are and where you're headed next. Because when it comes to growing your business, there's truly nothing like Business Platinum. Not all purchases will be approved. Terms and points cap apply. Learn more at Go Amex Bplat. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Neeraj Shah, co founder of Wayfair. Neeraj, you ready to take the next call?

[Neeraj Shah]

Absolutely.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a line about your business, please.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Hi, I'm Bri Van Leeuwen. I'm calling from Orem, Utah, and I'm the founder of Daily Shade Sunscreen. Daily Shade is redefining what true mineral sunscreen can look and feel like. So we launched last year in 2024 with our flagship product called Babeshade. It is designed for kids, and it's the first true mineral sunscreen for daily use that disappears like magic on their skin. So no little white ghosts running around here.

[Guy Raz]

Guy, Bree, thanks for calling in. So the brand is called Daily Shade. And I know this is a problem. I mean, I use mineral sunscreen on my face every day, and I have a brand that does a pretty good job. But it's hard because, you know, the chemical sunscreens are great. They just dissolve into your skin. But, of course, a lot of people are increasingly getting concerned about, well, do you really want that absorbing in your skin? And the mineral sunscreen sits on top of your skin. Right. And that's the difference. It doesn't get absorbed by your skin as much.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yeah. You know a lot about this, which is great. So you're exactly right. My daughter had a reaction to a very popular chemical sunscreen that was marketed for kids, quote, unquote. And she just. It was a terrible, terrible response. She got blisters, and it was awful. So I started using, like, you're saying, true mineral sunscreens, but either she would still react because it was a little bit of mineral, a lot of UV chemical filters and boosters, which the FDA doesn't require them to list, or I would put on a natural zinc product. And the, the more natural, the more zinc it had, the whiter she got. And I knew I wanted her to wear it daily. And I just, I couldn't send her out the door looking like Casper the Ghost. Right.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

So I knew I had to fix it.

[Guy Raz]

And the challenge is that if it's a true mineral sunscreen, it's like, you know, it's like that. It's like a 50s like beach movie, right? Where your face is just like, you know, that you get the white nose or whatever. So it's hard. It's really hard to make it disappear. So how did. Tell me how you started this business. Do you have a background in. In skin or in health or.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yeah, I do. Yeah. I'm a physician assistant by professional training. So I practice medicine. I've been practicing for 15 years. I actually worked a little bit in facial plastic reconstructive surgery. And these young girls would come in with these awful, awful scars on their face that we were trying to do some reconstruction on from melanoma, the most dangerous form of skin cancer. Utah is the number one state in the whole nation for melanoma, actually. And it affects a lot of young girls. It's common cancer in women aged 26 to 30. So when I saw this, I knew I wanted my kids to be protected because such a large portion of sun damage happens during childhood. Some studies even say as high as up to 80% of someone's sun damage during their whole life happens when they're little before the age of 18. So I wanted my kids to wear something every day and protect their skin from the sun, but the options were terrible, to be honest with you. Mainstream sunscreens, the UV chemical filters did not work for my family. And I couldn't find a cosmetically pleasing one that didn't make them look just completely silly.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. So, all right, so you went in, you decided to launch your own brand, which you launched. When did you launch it?

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Last year. But it took us four years to create our product line. So four years of development and R and D. Sunscreen is a drug, so it has to go through the fda.

[Guy Raz]

And you finance this yourself?

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yes. Self funded, super fun.

[Guy Raz]

And tell me about where and mostly direct to consumer. You're selling through your website or do you sell in stores too?

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yeah, we're all on our website and we also sell on Amazon as well. We're in about 28 doors across the country, but nothing in a regional or national distribution quite yet.

[Guy Raz]

And tell me how the business has done so far. I mean, you're small, you don't have the budget for mass advertising yet. But how are you doing?

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

We're doing great. We sold through our first production run, just about. We have a few bottles left, which is great, great place to be in. We'll be producing again this fall and we have two new product lines coming out, a sport line and a women's line. So we can protect the whole family.

[Guy Raz]

And so have you broken like $50,000 in sales yet.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

We have. Thank you for asking. We have, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Nice. Okay, great. And before I forget, what's your question for us?

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Okay, my question is I am fortunate enough to have an in house cosmetic chemistry and that allows us to come up with products quickly. And I have a whole bunch of products I'd like to deliver to the world. The challenge is the cost of production is very high and at our current growth rate, I can only sustain maybe one or two product lines a year. And then because I'm being, I'm self funded, the marketing budget is of course lower than I wish it was. So my question is, as a founder, what are the key indicators I should be looking for to know when it's time to seek investment and give up maybe some equity, which I really don't want to do, versus continuing to bootstrap and grow a little bit more slowly?

[Guy Raz]

All right, great questions. Neeraj, I want to bring you in. What do you think? I mean, what? I mean, she wants to expand this thing, but she needs the money to do it.

[Neeraj Shah]

Yeah. In terms of selling the items you mentioned, you sell directly on your own website, you sell on Amazon. Have you discussed with any major retailers potentially carrying it? And what I was thinking there is, you know, potentially, if you have someone who likes getting in early, they might be willing to give you a purchase order for the kind of quantity they want. Even if it's a modest test rollout in their sense, it could be quite a decent volume. And those purchase orders from those larger companies you can get financing against. That sometimes is a way to get financing. But to your point, you're not selling equity. You're not selling equity for that.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yeah, that's a great idea. I haven't explored regional or national distribution quite yet because I frankly can't afford it quite yet. I'm hoping my business plan is for 27. That would be the earliest I would hope to be in some regional and national distribution. And at this point, yeah, I would have to either finance, take out a second mortgage, something like that, bet on myself, which is a scary thing to do, or find someone who is willing to do it with a small, small piece of equity, which is pretty hard to find.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And there's also, I mean, I completely agree with Neeraj here. I mean there's, you know, there are also ways to like revenue based financing that some of these lenders, Clearco is one, Shopify actually is one. They make small loans, right. Against predictable sales and then SBA loans. But back to something that Neeraj asked. Which I think is critical if you want to scale. When you want to get into the targets and the Sephoras, that's when you really need to raise money. And if that's where you're headed, then it may be worth thinking about a seed round of friends and family now, a small seed round, 3, $400,000, $500,000 to see what you can do with that money to sort of get you closer to the next level where you would need to raise a lot more money at that point.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yes, this is a good idea. It's something that's crossed my mind on a very regular basis. And with seed rounds, are you. You're not giving equity necessarily, you're just giving interest or you can choose, Neeraj.

[Guy Raz]

There are many ways to do it. You can get convertible notes. You can pay people back. There's a bunch of ways to do. Normally convertible notes just translate into stocks. But Neeraj, what do you think?

[Neeraj Shah]

Yeah, I think a convertible note is what I have heard of and seen is most common. What that is, instead of deciding at what value those investors are buying equity from you, they're giving you the investment. They hold a convertible note. And what that means is that when you raise your next round of capital, their money converts into equity, but at a discount to what that round ultimately gets priced at. So if you're able to take the money from them now, you're able to invest it very productively and grow the business nicely and then ultimately raise a round at a good price. These investors get the benefit. They're converting 20% less or 30% less than that. So they're getting that value for being early. But you're also not necessarily having to price the company based on your current sales and where you are now. That would be hard if you just do it off your current revenue. And if you start talking about the product pipeline and the vision you have, it becomes maybe a big debate as to what the price should be. So a convertible note, I think, is often an easy way to do it. And ultimately those investors and the friends and family around, they are going to get equity at a good price. But it makes it an easy way to raise the money quicker.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Okay, great. And I know that you bootstrapped for a long time. You guys didn't take investment money for a while, if I'm remembering correctly. Do you have regrets? Are you glad you did?

[Guy Raz]

No.

[Neeraj Shah]

So we're glad we did. So what we were able to do, and I do often recommend to folks, don't take the money until you're really ready to. And what I mean by that is, for some reason, there's a lot of prestige in raising money. But the truth is you'd rather not raise money if you can get to the next level without it. And so even if that means you might move a little slower, often that's a better decision. And when the time is right to raise money, it'll be because. Because that money, you have a very clear use for that money that you know will get you to the next level. And without the money, you're going to be unable to do the thing you want. So in our case, we were able to bootstrap the business. The big use of money that we were able to avoid in our case is we didn't buy the inventory and instead we drop shipped the orders from suppliers using their open stock inventory. So we didn't buy the item until we had already sold it. That's what let us kind of go a long way. And then the reason we raised Money, it was 10 years in, was we wanted to launch the Wayfair brand, but we didn't have the ability to fund building a brand with the amount of cash we were generating for the business. And so we then raised equity. And so I think that's the trade off you need to balance.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yeah. And I like the idea of waiting for the POS. I feel like I can carry it until the POS come in. But say I got a positive for 50,000 units, that would be probably the time to jump in and find some house.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And you mentioned that you were in some stores, Right. And what about just seeing if you can get the product in front of a Whole Foods buyer, for example?

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Guy, I would love that, you know, anybody send them my way.

[Guy Raz]

Well, I mean, they've got, you know, regional buyers. It would be worth cold, you know, going on LinkedIn and just finding someone's name and just cold emailing them. Because that's their job. Their job is to find interesting locally made products. We just did an episode on poppy, you know, poppy soda. It started out as a vinegar soda at a farmer's market in Dallas and it was picked up in the Whole Foods in Dallas. That really does happen. And part of it is finding. We've had so many episodes in the show where people go to a Whole Foods buyer and a regional buyer and then it gets into 2, 3, 4, Whole Foods. And Whole Foods will work with you. They want you to succeed.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Oh, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

You know, whether you can get purchase order financing. They're also, as you Know, they're right there, these groups that will lend you money if you've got the orders.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yeah. For the right percentage of return, they sure will.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

There's plenty of people willing to give you money. It just is trying to find the smartest way to go about that.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. I think the issue here, you gotta bet on yourself. That's the right. You're scared, you're worried because it's scary big. But you a great. It looks like you have a great product. So you've got an in house chemist. I mean, somebody's working with you to develop this stuff. You cracked the coat on the white residue on the face. I mean, it sounds really promising.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Thank you. Yeah, I quit my job. I mean, I was a professor in the PA department here at my university at Utah Valley University, and I quit my job in January and I'm all in on this. So. Yeah. Betting on myself for sure.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Any final words, Neeraj, for Bree?

[Neeraj Shah]

You know, I would say that just figure out what your next step is and don't worry about four steps at once, you know, and. And I wouldn't be scared of some of these larger national chains because a lot of them, they want to find new innovative product and test it in a small local way. And that could be an exciting thing to try while you're growing the existing distribution you already have with your two new products. And so you could take things one step at a time.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Yes. I love that very much. Yeah, that's the dream that's on the goal board. Right. Whole Foods, Sprouts, Sephora, all the places. Yeah, for sure.

[Guy Raz]

The brand's called Daily Shade. Bree Van Leeuwen, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Thank you. I love your show, by the way. I think as a founder, it's so scary and so hard and sometimes when I'm in my dark moments, I turn on how I built this. And it does. It helps you get through it and push through when you hear the story. So thank you for all you do.

[Guy Raz]

It's why we do we do. And thank you for saying that. Good luck.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

Thank you so much.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Vice lot right here on How I Built this Lab. The holidays are upon us and businesses are hiring for seasonal roles. Everything from haunted corn maze workers to snowplow drivers. This means that people with certain skills, experience, or even a special license are in high Demand and not easy to find. Whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, the best way to find the perfect match for your role is on ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Build ZipRecruiter's matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money. You can find out right away how many job seekers in your area are qualified for your role. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Bilt Again, that's ziprecruiter.com Bilt ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire.

[Experian Advertiser]

Not great with finances.

[Bree Van Leeuwen]

That's okay.

[Experian Advertiser]

Experian is your big financial friend. Explore credit card offers, some labeled no ding decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. See experian.com for details. Applying for no ding decline cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved. 2025 Experian Experian.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Neeraj Shah, co founder, founder of Wayfair and we're taking your calls right here. Hello caller. Welcome to the show.

[Tess Millhollen]

Hi Guy. Hi Neeraj. Thank you so much for having me on. My name is Tess Millhollen. I am based near San Antonio, Texas and I'm the founder of her house. Her house is an app community of solo women travelers who are background checked, who host each other for free, creating safe, affordable stay and a supportive network of women around the world.

[Guy Raz]

Wow, cool, Tess, thanks for calling in. So, okay, so this is a website and an app and it's basically designed for solo female travelers. It's like a network where if you're in it, you can connect with somebody somewhere around the world who's in this network who will let you stay at their home when you're traveling around the world.

[Tess Millhollen]

Yeah, you got it, guys. So we have three ways to stay with each other inside of her house. They can connect with other members and ask for accommodation while they're traveling in their in a new city or a new country. We also have opportunities to home swap with others and then home sit for each other as well. So there's Three ways to stay. But we really have a wonderful, beautiful community of solo traveling women who are just looking for adventure, but they don't want to be totally alone when they're out abroad.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And obviously, I'm sure safety and all kinds of things are a big part of it. Tell me, how is it? I mean, what's your business model? How do you make money?

[Tess Millhollen]

Yeah, so we are membership based. So we have a monthly and a yearly membership, and that gives the user, like, full access to the community and unlimited free accommodation within our community.

[Guy Raz]

So basically, if you are a member, you also have to be willing to provide free accommodation for a solo female traveler.

[Tess Millhollen]

Ideally, some of the women are like nomads and they actually don't have a home base and they're not. Not able to host at the time or. But a lot of them are still willing to get together with you if you're coming to their city, you know, grab a coffee, go to the beach, so that, like, when you're solo traveling, you can go to another country and, you know, have an immediate connection and an immediate girlfriend in the area.

[Guy Raz]

Nice. How many members do you have right now?

[Tess Millhollen]

So currently we have around 150 members across 20 countries.

[Guy Raz]

And when did. How did you get this idea? I'm assuming it started with your own travels.

[Tess Millhollen]

Yeah, so I solo backpacked through Australia in 2017 after I got out of college. And while I was over there, I. I'm kind of a natural networker. I'm really good at making friends, so I was able to connect with a lot of women while I was over there, find accommodation. And I found that as a solo woman traveler, people just opened up their homes to me all the time. It was like this amazing experience. I'm like, I didn't even know that people do this. And I had all these amazing experiences with local people. Like, I really immersed myself in the culture. And so when I got back to the States, my friends were like, how did you do that? How did you find these people? How did you know that they were safe? And I was like, oh, wait, like, it was easy for me to do this, but maybe it's not that easy for everyone else. So it's like, wouldn't it be great if we had an app, you know, a space where we could all connect and we're all background checked, it's all safe because safety's the number one concern for solo female travelers. So that's where it all kind of stemmed from.

[Guy Raz]

All right, interesting idea. Tell us your question.

[Tess Millhollen]

Yeah, so I am a Solo founder. And I've been building this on the side of a full time job in software sales. And I'm starting to realize that I cannot do both while also being a mom and a wife. And my question is, when should a new founder make the jump to running their startup full time? Is there a specific income threshold or signs of a healthy business that will give me the confidence to make that jump?

[Guy Raz]

All right, interesting questions by the way. Do you travel for that job?

[Tess Millhollen]

Not a whole lot. I work remote so I handle all of my sales calls and stuff remotely at my house.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so you've got a full time job, software sales. This is really sounds like your passion, but you need to know like if you're going to do this full time, when what signs should you be looking for? Neeraj, I want to bring you in. Any questions before we tackle Tess's question?

[Neeraj Shah]

I have one question which is Tess, say the scenario was such that you could focus on her house full time. Do you have a vision as to the activities you would then focus on full time that would kind of fill all that time and you feel like would have a high return or is that one of the things you'd have to figure out? It's like, you know, what would I then, you know, instead of spending X amount of time, I can now spend a multiple of that. What would I go do?

[Tess Millhollen]

That's a good question. I think that. So I get up super early in the morning to work on her house like for a few hours before I log in for my regular day job and you know, whenever I need to, you know, stop working on her house, I'm like, I feel like I have like so many things to do. You know, I. My to do list just keeps compiling and I was like, man, if I could spend more time on this, would it really move more of the needle? It's hard to say. Like I feel like it would, but it's not financially. In a place where I feel comfortable like putting my family in the place to. I can't depend on it quite yet.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I mean, I would sort of start out by saying I don't think there's any quote unquote right income threshold. It's really, it's such a personal decision. Right. I mean, I'm assuming, you know, as a software sales rep, you're probably getting commissions. You probably get benefits as well. It's probably a pretty good job from that perspective. Am I right or wrong or.

[Tess Millhollen]

No, you are right, guy. And that's also the hard thing. Like I Have a really good job and it's well paid. I have great benefits. So that makes it even more scary to try to like let go of something that I actually have worked really hard to achieve. And I do like my job. It's not like I don't like my job and I want to quit it, but I'm just feeling so stretched so thin between my passion and my love for her house and wanting to see it grow and then a very demanding job on top of it.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, Neeraj, I'm curious when. I mean, there's really no universal answer for when to jump ship. I mean, there's some things I think people should pay attention to, but if people say, how do you know? How do you know when to leave your day job? Do you ever know?

[Neeraj Shah]

What occurs to me is there's sort of like two questions in there. So one is, have you been able to progress her house to a point where you feel like it's worth the risk and the effort of making it your full time vocation, where you feel like you have a vision of what you want to do and the odds of it working is high enough that you have that conviction that it would be a good year use of your time and that it would progress things in the way you want. And the second is that pragmatic financial question. You know, are you in a position financially where you can afford to take that risk and if you can't and you still want to, then, you know, through a friends and family round or through some method, can you financially bridge it somehow where you could sell some equity and get enough and maybe it's not the same amount of money as you're making now, but it's enough that you feel like it's worth doing something. So I would try to break those two apart in how you think about it and you know, focus on the first where you're not thinking about the money side, you're just saying like, hey, how much conviction do I have that this, you know, if I put myself at this full time, I'm going to be able to get this where I want. And if you say you're very convicted, then I would kind of try to think through the money piece and figure out if there's a path that makes it. You know, I think of it as a no regret decision, meaning even if it doesn't work, you'll be happy that you tried it. You know, can you, can you get to a scenario where that would be the right answer? Because often if you don't pursue something you want, you'll have regrets, but obviously if you do something reckless, you could have different regrets. So you want to make sure it's not reckless as well.

[Guy Raz]

But can she do that? Because I agree with you, but I would say she should really try to do that while keeping her job. As tough as that's going to be.

[Neeraj Shah]

Well, I think you got to start there and then if you're like, hey, I just need X amount more time, I think one of the other questions I have, which I was going to get into is, is there an in between? So often in something like software sales, where it's commission driven and it's outcome, if you're doing a great job for the company, if you say, hey, is there a halftime role or some such thing, if it's a kind of variable comp type thing, they might say, hey, we don't want to lose you, so we might be willing to do that or something like that. But yeah, I wouldn't give up the job too quickly for sure. And then what I would guide to your point, given the flexibility you have, it's remote. You're not traveling for it. Can you do both? And then to agree you can't do both. Is there something different than an all or not nothing?

[Guy Raz]

There's a thought I had because I mean, again, there's some things that they're sort of quote unquote green lights, right? Like, do you have recurring revenue? What do the renewals look like? Like, I do think it's worth asking those questions. Are, you know, what kind of growth are you looking at? Right? What kind of validation are you getting from the outside? But is there a way that maybe you hire a part time community manager to do some things that you want to do? You know, that may be a modest investment of an hourly person helping you. Is that something you've looked at or thought about trying?

[Tess Millhollen]

Yeah, it's actually interesting you bring that up, guy, because I actually did hire a community and social media manager this year, actually within this past month, because I was just like, I can't do all of this and I'm not present on social media and I just don't have time. So she's been helping me quite a bit and I'm really trying to figure out ways to take these things off my plate that I don't really need to be directly involved in for sure.

[Guy Raz]

Is that person also in San Antonio or are they remote?

[Tess Millhollen]

She's remote, yeah, she was a referral, but she's based in the Philippines.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, look, it's a first step, right, Is bringing somebody in. Because again, I think that. But you want to keep one foot in your day job as long as possible because the money and the benefits are going to be really helpful. And it may mean you're going to have to grind a little bit more on the other side. But again, with somebody helping you out part time, it could be a game changer.

[Tess Millhollen]

Yeah, exactly. And especially with my current situation, I can afford to have someone help me out with that, but I really can't afford to let go of my job. But I really like your idea, Neeraj, about potentially going half time or something in the future.

[Neeraj Shah]

And I also think you mentioned the person you hired in the Philippines through referrals in just the last month or so. So I think it's probably early in figuring out what type of leverage you might get from that. So there's things that as you're working on this, I think you might start seeing, how do I get some leverage while not spending more money than I can afford. But get the growth trajectory of her house up, moving the right way and then to guy's point, can it grow to a size where it can support what you need? And whether that's halftime or what have you, eventually full time.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. The brand is called Her House Test. Milholland, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.

[Tess Millhollen]

Thanks, guys.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of crazy because you guys are running such a big business, right? But I mean, there was a time where you and Steve are just grinding it out just to getting through the day. I mean, you probably still have long days, but it's different. It's a different kind of experience at this point in your life.

[Neeraj Shah]

Yeah, I remember those early years. We were working effectively nonstop in the early years. But it was interesting when Tess described she's not balancing just a full time job and her house. She's also balancing being married and having a young child, I think she said. So that's a lot you're balancing. And so I think we had the good fortune, we ended up starting early. But there's all these things you gotta balance and trade offs. And I do think the ability in her case, where you're remote, that gives you some flexibility and so can you organize in a way that does give you that leverage to kind of advance it. So it does lend itself sometimes to creative options.

[Guy Raz]

Neeraj, before I let you go, if you could go back to when you and Steve were just starting out, you know, building these like just one product web pages and you could go back and say, all right, you know, given what you know now, what do you think would be helpful? What would you say? What would you tell that person? What would have been helpful for you to know back then?

[Neeraj Shah]

I think, you know, nothing's ever linear and up to the right. So, you know, sometimes when stories get told, you know, it's like all the high notes get told, and so you just feel like it, Jesus, should just string right along. And I think when folks tell you the details of the story, you realize there's real ups and downs and a real journey that ensued. And I think that's the reality. And so often I think folks can be in a rush to get to that success point. And I think the journey, this is why you need to do something you enjoy so that hopefully the highs and lows are still. You're pursuing something you really love. But I think just taking your time and how you go about it and just being very disciplined in how you pick your priorities, what you do, that's the key. And you just need to keep going and learn from the things that don't work well. And often those learnings lead you to the next aha moment. And so because I think if you kind of go in with that mental model, it becomes clear why you need to pick something you love. And also from an expectation standpoint, you know, trying to rush your way to the big win, that's really not a thing, I don't think.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, for sure. Niraj, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

[Neeraj Shah]

Thank you, guy. It was great to do it. Nice see you.

[Guy Raz]

You too. That's Niraj Shah, co founder of Wayfair. And by the way, if you haven't heard that episode, go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's so good. You got to listen to it. Here is one of my favorite moments from that episode. So. All right, I'm going to read some of the websites that you guys launched because I just think they're amazingly straightforward. Hotplates.com I'm assuming that sold hot plates? Yeah. Yes. Okay. Allbarstools.com sold barstool.

[Neeraj Shah]

How do you think that sold?

[Guy Raz]

Yes.

[Neeraj Shah]

You're doing good. You're doing Good.

[Guy Raz]

All right. Mydinnerplate.com I'm assuming. Yeah, I love this one. Everygrandfatherclock.com A very hot category online. Painful to ship. Who knew people were searching for that? We did. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way. Please make make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Chris Masini, Chasey Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Kerry Thompson, Kathryn Cipher, Romel Wood, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.