Advice Line with Norma Kamali of Norma Kamali (2024)

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz – Episode Summary: "Advice Line with Norma Kamali of Norma Kamali" (July 10, 2025)

In this engaging episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz reconnects with legendary fashion designer Norma Kamali for an insightful Advice Line session. Throughout the episode, Norma shares her wealth of experience in building a lasting fashion brand, offering invaluable advice to three budding entrepreneurs facing unique business challenges. This summary captures the essence of their conversations, highlighting key discussions, insights, and actionable conclusions.

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1. Introduction to Norma Kamali

[04:29] Norma Kamali:
"I feel privileged to have a creative life."

Norma Kamali returns to the show, celebrated for her transformative journey from an airline clerk in the 1960s to establishing one of America’s first iconic fashion brands. Known for pioneering designs like Farrah Fawcett's red swimsuit and the revolutionary sleeping bag jacket, Norma continues to actively run her brand from New York City, embodying decades of creativity and entrepreneurial spirit.

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2. Caller 1: Ahmed Ejaz – Cambridge Spectacle Company

Caller Introduction:
Ahmed Ejaz from the United Kingdom is the founder of Cambridge Spectacle Company, a brand specializing in beautifully designed prescription eyewear.

Business Overview:
Ahmed transitioned from a career in optometry to focus on designing glasses, drawing inspiration from Cambridge's rich academic and cultural heritage. His brand aims to establish a global British eyewear presence similar to Warby Parker in the U.S.

Key Challenges:

• Translating customer love and brand buzz into investor enthusiasm.
• Scaling the business across multiple locations.

Discussion & Insights:

• Brand Differentiation:
  Norma Kamali [09:57]:
  "What is different about your product or your approach to marketing your product that would make me want to invest in your potential success?"

  Ahmed emphasizes his brand’s unique connection to Cambridge, both in design inspiration and philanthropic efforts, such as donating a portion of profits to eye research.

• Scaling Strategies:
  Guy Raz [17:19]:
  "There's a way to connect it more closely because for most people Cambridge is the university. Maybe even name your glasses after notable Cambridge alumni."

  Norma suggests leveraging the rich history of Cambridge by naming eyewear after famous figures associated with the university, enhancing brand storytelling and investor appeal.

Notable Quotes:

• Norma Kamali [07:35]:
  "Learning as much as you can about how to look at where you need help in the business..."

• Ahmed Ejaz [11:20]:
  "I felt that there really needed to be, hopefully one day a global British eyewear brand that dominates."

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3. Caller 2: Bob Wolkoff – Sunny Bowles

Caller Introduction:
Bob Wolkoff from Chicago is the founder of Sunny Bowles, a fast-casual restaurant focusing on soups as the star of the menu.

Business Overview:
Inspired by brands like Sweetgreen, Sunny Bowles offers a variety of soups designed by a James Beard award-winning chef, complemented by sandwiches, salads, and innovative smoothie bowls with an ice cream-like texture.

Key Challenges:

• Changing consumer perceptions to prioritize soup as a main meal option.
• Competing against established fast-casual brands to acquire new customers.

Discussion & Insights:

• Market Positioning:
  Norma Kamali [30:04]:
  "What is the value added?... Is there nutritional value?"

  Emphasizing the nutritional benefits and unique positioning of Sunny Bowles can help differentiate the brand in a crowded market.

• Innovative Delivery Mechanisms:
  Guy Raz [33:04]:
  "What if there was a pureed soup, like a sippin soup served in a to-go coffee cup?"

  Introducing a convenient, on-the-go soup option could revolutionize how customers perceive and consume soup, much like the ubiquity of coffee cups.

Notable Quotes:

• Norma Kamali [30:42]:
  "Nutrition is everything... promoting the idea that your soup is both tasty and nutritious."

• Bob Wolkoff [28:09]:
  "I'm a contrarian. I believed that starting during the pandemic would let me build brand and learn the business."

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4. Caller 3: Adriana Alvarez – Lovehershop.com

Caller Introduction:
Adriana Alvarez from Sacramento, California, is the founder of Lovehershop.com, an athleisure brand renowned for its high-quality, affordable leggings designed to flatter diverse body types.

Business Overview:
Adriana launched her brand to address the lack of affordable, well-fitting workout apparel for women, particularly mothers. Her leggings have garnered significant success, achieving over a million dollars in sales within the first year through social media marketing.

Key Challenges:

• Deciding whether to seek external investment to scale the business.
• Balancing continued growth with maintaining brand authenticity.

Discussion & Insights:

• Funding Considerations:
  Guy Raz [50:20]:
  "Having outside capital can help you scale, but finding the right strategic partner with wholesale apparel experience is crucial."

  Norma advises Adriana to seek investors who can offer not just funds but also valuable industry expertise, ensuring sustainable growth without compromising brand integrity.

• Expanding Distribution Channels:
  Norma Kamali [47:58]:
  "Consider selling on platforms like TikTok and Instagram to open additional virtual stores."

  Leveraging social media platforms for direct sales can enhance visibility and accessibility, tapping into a broader customer base.

Notable Quotes:

• Norma Kamali [46:58]:
  "Be very careful about entering the wholesale distribution network. Ensure you're meeting your margins and maintaining control over your brand."

• Adriana Alvarez [43:39]:
  "Our customers are our influencers... Moms share with their social media groups, and that's how we took off."

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5. Final Thoughts and Inspirational Moments

As the episode wraps up, Norma Kamali imparts wisdom on the importance of learning from mistakes, seeking mentorship, and maintaining a positive outlook. She emphasizes the value of starting each day with a fresh perspective, free from the burdens of the previous day.

Guy Raz [54:41]:
"Norma, if you could travel back in time to the 1960s and give yourself one piece of business advice, what would it be?"

Norma Kamali [54:41]:
"I really benefited from my mistakes and learning and getting advice from people who really helped me along the way."

This powerful exchange underscores the episode’s central theme: the significance of resilience, continuous learning, and seeking guidance from experienced mentors in the entrepreneurial journey.

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Conclusion

This episode of How I Built This offers a rich tapestry of entrepreneurial experiences, with Norma Kamali guiding three founders through their unique business challenges. From brand differentiation and scaling strategies to funding decisions and expanding distribution channels, Norma's insights provide practical and inspirational advice for entrepreneurs at various stages of their journeys.

For listeners eager to delve deeper into Norma Kamali’s original story, her 2021 episode is highly recommended and accessible via the podcast's feed.

Notable Final Quote:

Norma Kamali [55:08]:
"The majority of the stock slowly became my designs and I had a full page in Vogue and a good size page in Bazaar. This is nuts."

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How I Built This with Guy Raz continues to be a master-class in entrepreneurship, blending personal stories with actionable business strategies. Whether you're an aspiring founder or an established entrepreneur, the wisdom shared in this episode is both enlightening and empowering.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Can AI predict the source of the next global pandemic? Or at least help convince a Hollywood studio to buy a new screenplay from Scott Z. Burns, the writer of Contagion, with special guest appearances from director Steven Soderbergh, Laurence Fishburne and Jennifer Ehle. Don't miss what Could Go Wrong, a deeply thoughtful, occasionally frightening and often hilarious Audible original podcast that delves head and heart first into today's burning can humankind and AI actually work hand in hand? Follow Scott and an ever expanding cast of AI generated partners including Lexter, an extraordinarily gifted sharp tongued AI as they co write and pitch Hollywood execs the Contagion sequel. Hear what Could Go Wrong now on audible. Go to audible.com whatcodgorong the next act begins with a prompt and now a quick vital break. A little more from our sponsor Vital Proteins have you heard of Vital Proteins? Collagen Peptides? Vital Proteins help you look good and feel good because it supports healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints all in one collagen powder. Vital Protein's ingredients are backed by science and shown to be effective, but consistency is key. Take a serving of Collagen peptides every day to help look, feel and move your best. Plus, it's unflavored so it's super easy to mix into my favorite smoothies. Get 20% off by going to www.vitalproteins.com and entering promo code Best built at checkout. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. If you run a small business, you know there's nothing small about it. But when decisions begin to feel daunting, one thing that has helped many entrepreneurs is knowing that they have the right platform with all of the tools they need to succeed. Shopify Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the US get all the big stuff for your small business right with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.combilt go to shopify.combuilt shopify.combilt hey everyone, it's Guy here. So our team is just getting back from our break and this week we've got an amazing episode from the Archives, our advice line conversation with the legendary fashion designer Norma Kamali. We'll be back with brand new Advice Line episode starting next week and I'll be joined by some awesome guests like Lady Gaga's former manager Troy Carter. So stay tuned and again, thank you to everyone who's called in so far. We love hearing your stories, we love talking through your business challenges. Keep it up and enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. And you can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is fashion designer, legendary fashion designer Norma Kamali. Norma, welcome back to the show.

[Norma Kamali]

I'm happy to be back.

[Guy Raz]

It's so great to have you back on the show. You were first on How I built this in 2021 and of course you told the story of how you built your hugely influential fashion business. And of course, if those of you listening have not yet heard that story, please check out our feed. We've just posted the original episode and we'll also put a link in the description. It is such an amazing story, but basically in the 60s, Norma was working as an airline clerk and then using her employee discount to fly to London and then buy up clothes, sort of secondhand clothes there and then opened a store in New York to sell them. Eventually start designing your own clothing and you create all these iconic pieces. Farrah Fawcett's red swimsuit, the sleeping bag jacket, and really built one of the first great American brands. And let me just say it again, Norma, you are a legend. Eight decades of life and you are still actively running your brand out of New York City today.

[Norma Kamali]

Yep. Yes, very actively and enjoying every minute of it. I feel privileged to have a creative Life.

[Guy Raz]

I'm very lucky and total inspiration, Norma. You really are. We have a bunch of early stage founders here ready to jump on. But before they do, if you'll indulge me, I've got a couple of questions for you before we bring them on. So, you know, you really built your brand on designs that stood out in part because they were so different. They were kind of weird at the time. But just because customers love a product, right, and they love and loved yours, it doesn't always mean that the business is profitable. There was a point in your journey where you were really hot in the New York fashion world, but you guys were having trouble paying the rent. I remember you telling us this story. How do you turn customer love and satisfaction and buzz around your brand into growth, into profitability?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, I think a lot of creative people believe they're not good at business, and I believe that that's not true. I think it's something we've been fed to believe, and I think the more you can learn about business, and maybe it's by having really good mentors. I was very fortunate to have incredible advice throughout my career and learning as much as I could about how to look at where I needed help in the business, how I needed to evaluate sales versus productivity, and also how to maximize the opportunity of the attention you're getting from the press. And that's as important as the creative concept storytelling.

[Guy Raz]

Norma, your. You know your brand was and is your vision, right? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs can identify with that. Right. That feeling. But at a certain point, certainly in your industry, to become a global brand, you often have to partner with bigger companies, right? You worked with Walmart, you worked with. You did a lot of interesting things. So how do you protect your vision when you start to do things like work with partners, with bigger partners?

[Norma Kamali]

That's the big challenge. And I still am the sole owner of my company, which tells you I really like to control the fit and the quality of the product. But I was copied a lot, and I wasn't making money because other people were making money from my designs. When I knew I did a collection that I felt was strong, I partnered with Jones Apparel, and it was a huge success because I had the ability to use their manufacturing and distribution and sales with my designs and sort of storytelling. And the combination was incredibly profitable for everyone. By doing that, it gave me exposure and the ability to do many other things and also go to sleep at night knowing I could pay the rent finally.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I love it. All right, Norma, why don't we bring in our first caller?

[Norma Kamali]

Great.

[Guy Raz]

And let's bring caller number one onto the show. Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with me and Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business and we'll take it from there.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Well, hello. Lovely to meet you both. My name is Ahmed Ejaz. I am calling from England in the United Kingdom, and I am the founder of Cambridge Spectacle Company. We make beautiful glasses and we've started to do eye examinations as well now.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing. Okay, welcome to the show, Ahmed, and thank you for calling in. So you have a. Are you an optometrist? Do you do, like, eye exams and sell glasses?

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I am actually an optometrist by training, but when I started this brand, I actually quit my job as an optometrist and started focusing on designing glasses. Designing prescription eyewear. Yeah. So we initially started with a sort of a distribution deal with a big company in the UK who were part of Walmart at the time as their opticians. And, you know, that was great. But we've moved into opening our own optometry practices now. So, you know, sort of similar to Warby Parker in the United States. That kind of brand.

[Guy Raz]

I see. Okay, now I'm starting to make sense. You're basically trying to model your business off of Warby Parker in the us like, basically high designs, high end quality designs, but at a lower price point.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, for me, Warby, when those guys, you know, did what they did, I was just sort of qualifying from university and I thought it was game changing and I didn't quite understand why we didn't have something similar in the UK and we weren't celebrating British eyewear. We know we've got Oakley and Ray Ban as American companies and there's a lot of Scandinavian companies out there. But I felt that there really needed to be, hopefully one day a global British eyewear brand that dominates.

[Guy Raz]

And presumably Warby Parker doesn't operate. I think they only operate in the us, Right.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, that's right, yeah. So I did send them an email in 2015 and I said to them, to the customer service, I'd love to start this in the uk, but I didn't hear back, so I thought, well, I better start this myself.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks. Well, I'm sure you heard our episode with Warby Parker, with Neil Blumenthal, both of them. Yeah. And amazing story. Okay, so what's the vision here? The vision, presumably, is to try and scale this thing.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah. So look, we're opening a second store in London in the next week or so. So we've just acquired a store there and we've acquired that customer database and all the frames are going to be changed to Cambridge Spectacle Co Frames. And then we're in negotiations right now to open a third store in Birmingham. So the goal is three sites by the end of this year.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. How are you financing all this?

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Well, it's part of my question, but we're sort of angel investor backed. So a friend of mine, he sort of said, how much do you need to get going? And I had no money, but I had a deal on the table with Asda Opticians. I didn't tell them I had no money. And my friend, you know, I told him I needed £150,000 to get going. And he fortunately said, I'll do you the full amount, Ahmed, because I know you and I trust you. So he kicked us off and then we did a little bit of crowdfunding as well, via European crowd equity.

[Guy Raz]

All right, I got a bunch of questions for you, but before I do that, I want to hear what your question is for us today.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, so look, I think we know that customer proposition is strong and customers seem to love our brand, but the question really is, how do we get that same kind of excitement around the brand across to investors? Because it's very difficult when you're in a pitch and you've got five, 10 minutes and they're seeing pitch after pitch as angels or VC for them to fall in love with your brand. So, you know, how are we really going to be able to translate that love and show them not just the financials, but, hey, this is going to be big. You know, customers love this.

[Guy Raz]

How do you get. How do you generate the buzz to attract investors? Just out of curiosity, what's your revenue right now? Annual revenue?

[Ahmed Ejaz]

So we're doing about. In the store, about £20,000 to £25,000, about 30 to $35,000 a month. That's in the first year.

[Guy Raz]

That's great. Okay, so you're looking at three to 350,000, maybe 400,000 revenue this year. Let me bring in Norma Kamali. Norma, I have a lot of questions. You may have questions for Ahmed Go. Let's hear your thoughts.

[Norma Kamali]

Well, I think the first question I have is what makes you different other than your ambition to use your reputation and your history and value? But it really takes a lot more to sell someone and it has to be done maybe in a Sentence or two and no more. So what is different about your product or your approach to marketing your product that would make me want to invest in your potential success?

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, so, I mean, I think from a customer point of view, we always tell them how our designs are inspired by Cambridge and made by us rather than any designer.

[Guy Raz]

You say Cambridge, like the town, the university, the sort of aura of that town.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, exactly. So I lived there for a while and my brother who helped out is an MBA from the university. And so we will always, you know, discuss with the patients the fact that all the glasses are inspired by that city, named after roads, places in that city. And that's what customers seem to be responding well to. And then also we give a portion of our profits to eye research as well. But I think, Norma, this is where I struggle, that if I gave that across to an investor, it's probably not the thing that excites them. Or maybe it is, maybe I'm just not explaining it and they would be excited by that.

[Norma Kamali]

Well, I must say, I now think, oh, this is interesting. It's a very authentic British brand that has the character of history and quality just by that reference. And the idea of your conjunction contributing to the health and well being of eye care, it was very nice and very a sign of goodwill on top of this classic British history that you're basing the brand on. So those two points definitely have more of my interest than the idea of the name. And you're opening different brick and mortar locations first, knowing that history and the reference definitely raises interest.

[Guy Raz]

You know, it's interesting because I'm looking at your website here and your question is, how do we generate more buzz around the story? And the story is, if the story is Cambridge, like the university, the aura of that place, I'm not seeing enough of that. What Warby Parker did really? Well, first of all, it was an invented name, right? And they took two names from Jack Kerouac books and put them together. But then they named their glasses, they gave each pair of glasses, each design, like an interesting name. Like, is there a world where. Could you just looking at like the list of graduates of the University of Cambridge, I mean, could you call one like George V, a pair of glasses called the Cornwall? Yeah, here you go. Pitt Vuger.

[Norma Kamali]

I love it.

[Guy Raz]

There's all these people who are like Nehru, Nehru went to Cambridge. Could you call a pair of the Nehrus? I mean, it just seems like there's a way to connect it more closely because for most people Cambridge is the university. Right. Maybe Even make like a pair called like the Philby's. Right. Because those spies went there. To me, if the story is about Britain, Cambridge, you gotta lean into that more before you're gonna really be able to get people excited about it.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, no, I think, Guy, that's an incredible approach and idea. You know, Princess, I think was named when we designed that after Prince Charles at the time, who's now King Charles because he went to the University of Cambridge. But you wouldn't really know that looking at it. Right. So I think, yeah, we must do, must do better at that. And if that's what generates the buzz and as Norma says, if, you know, you are excited by the fact that it's linked so heavily to Cambridge, then that's a great idea.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Norma, the other thing I'm wondering about is, like, in fashion, right, the trick is to get the cool kids to wear your stuff. Like, the other thing Warby Parker did is they found the cool kids who are frugal, who didn't have money but could wear their glasses. Those are the people they got those glasses on. Right. Normally, I mean, it's the same in fashion, right?

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. I've been thinking from the beginning of the conversation, well, what's the demographic? We know if you have a great price, you can have a younger demographic. And I think having some sort of an interaction with the clients to take pictures of themselves, put it on social media wearing your glasses. And also, how many things can you do with those glasses? They can obviously be prescription. They can. I use mine for my computer where I have a soft tint, but I also have sunglass versions of my prescription. So I think having, you know, really rolling out all the possibilities and looking at marketing it through actual evolution of your client base.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, yeah, no, I think, I think that's a good idea. I mean, when we started the brand, we had to think about the audience and, you know, older, young. And whilst we knew older people would buy varifocals and buy focals and they would be ultimately more expensive and more profitable, we decided that, well, if you build a brand for younger people, the older people will come, but if you build a brand for older people, the younger people won't make it to it. Right. So, yeah, I think we do need to go back to making sure that we get the younger people in to promote the brand. As you say, Warby did. Yeah, which would be a great idea.

[Guy Raz]

You know, there's an episode of the show we did maybe a year or two ago on Mod Pizza and actually the founders were on the advice line a couple months ago and. And what's cool, you should listen to that episode because their first business that they started was called Seattle Coffee Company and they started it in a kiosk at Covent Garden and they saw what was happening with Starbucks in the US at the time and this was in the 90s. They saw Starbucks was growing so fast they decided to replicate that model in the uk. They were two Americans, Ali and Scott Svensson, and they very quickly found investors to scale Seattle Coffee Company and just build. I think they built like 50 locations across the UK in just a matter of a few years. And then of course they, Starbucks came in and bought it and converted them all to Starbucks which was a great outcome for everybody. To me there's a world where something like that could happen, you know, where a world where Warby Parker decides to go to the uk, you know, but, but to get that kind of money and to build that scale quickly back to your question. You've got to just get your story down because. Because you have all the, the fundamentals, the foundation there, it's just now really chiseling away and getting it right.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Yeah, I mean look, going to 50 stores is, you know, my ambition is to get to 100 stores and if Warby Parker or someone comes along we'd be happy to talk at that point. We have actually spoken to a big British VC here in the UK and they have said that get to five stores and we will look at backing you to get to 20 with a few million pounds. But we had a connection to that investor at that VC firm so he's been great and he's been monitoring our progress but it's just making sure that the other VCs do follow on in that round as well and having that kind of growth story that war we had in America.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, it's awesome, awesome idea. Ahmadijaz, thanks so much. The brand is called Cambridge Spectacle. Good luck, good luck, good luck.

[Ahmed Ejaz]

Nice to meet you both. Thank you. Thanks so much for the advice.

[Norma Kamali]

That's great.

[Guy Raz]

I mean he's got a Cromwells. I'm looking at this list. He's going to do the Nehru's.

[Norma Kamali]

So much fun. Wall poles.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, he just has to name them after people who've been long dead.

[Norma Kamali]

I think he has to focus on the story and creating a buzz before he opens more stores. I think getting really grounding that message. True British character and fun.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And I mean the thing about the UK is that it's the total addressable market. There is still significant right. Population 65 million. It's a big, I mean, it's a, you can build a huge brand just in the uk.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Not. You can't do that in every European country. It's not easy to do that in like, you know, Lichtenstein. But you can do that in the uk.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Stay with us because after the break we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Are you struggling to stay focused and are you looking for something that can actually help you really hone in on your work? Remarkable the paper tablet might just be what you're looking for. So what exactly is a paper tablet? In short, it's everything you love about paper. But with the power of modern technology. Remarkable just released their third generation paper tablet, Remarkable Paper Pro. It's thin, minimalist and feels and sounds just like writing on paper, but comes with powerful digital features like handwriting conversion, a built in reading light, productivity templates, and more. I started using the Paper Pro to take notes and it really helps me get my thoughts down without needing to grab a paper notebook. Not sure if it's for you. No worries. You can try Remarkable Paper Pro for up to 100 days with a satisfaction guarantee. If it's not the game changer you were hoping for, you will get your money back. Head over to remarkable.com to learn more and grab your Paper Pro today. Finding great candidates to hire can be challenging. You get too many resumes and not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But. But not with ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Bilt ZipRecruiter's smart technology identifies and connects you with top candidates. Quickly ditch the other hiring sites and let ZipRecruiter find what you're looking for. The needle in the haystack four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address. Ziprecruiter.com BILT Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com BILT ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire Trust isn't just earned, it's demanded. Whether you're a startup founder navigating your first audit or a seasoned security professional scaling your GRC program, proving your commitment to security has never been more critical or more complex. That's where VANTA comes in. Businesses use VANTA to establish trust by automating compliance needs across over 35 frameworks like SoC2 and ISO 27001 centralize security workflows, complete questionnaires up to five times faster, and proactively manage vendor risk. Vanta not only saves you time, it can also save you Money. A new IDC white paper found that Vant customers achieve $535,000 per year in benefits and a platform pays for itself in just three months. Join over 9,000 global companies like Atlassian, Quora and Factory who use Vanta to manage risk and prove security in real time. For a limited time, our audience gets $1,000 off [e-mail] bilt that's V A N T A dot com built for $1,000 off. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is fashion designer Norma Kamali. Norma, what do you say? Should we take another call?

[Norma Kamali]

I think so. Lots of fun.

[Guy Raz]

Hello, caller, Please join us. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with me, Norma Kamali. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just very briefly about your business.

[Bob Wolkoff]

I'm Bob Wolkoff from Chicago. Big fan of the show. Sunny Bowles, which I'm the founder of, is a new category in the fast casual restaurant industry where soup is the star of the menu. Our goal is to become the sweetgreen of soup.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in the sweetgreen of soup. That's very clear. I know exactly. I already imagine exactly what you're trying to do. So you've got one or two? One shop in Chicago right now.

[Bob Wolkoff]

We have two. One at the Merchandise Mart and one at Northwestern Hospital.

[Guy Raz]

And when did you start this? When did you launch this brand?

[Bob Wolkoff]

Well, I started it when Covid was still a thing, toward the end of it. And I'm a contrarian. And just believe that if I started when all the restaurants were closing and I could build brand and start to learn a business that I didn't know, that's what I did.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. Were you in food at the time? I mean, was that. Was it your background?

[Bob Wolkoff]

My whole career was in real estate. And I had this idea when I was in my 20s and I finally decided to open it when I was 58.

[Guy Raz]

I love it. So really starting from scratch at 58, we just did a great episode about Lily's chocolates. And Cynthia Tice was 57 when she started that brand. So you open the first location, you've got two now and you. And it's soup. Basically that's what you sell.

[Bob Wolkoff]

So soup is the star. So if you picture an ice cream store, but instead of ice cream, we have 10 soups that were actually designed by a James Beard award winning chef.

[Guy Raz]

Nice.

[Bob Wolkoff]

And you pair it or you can pair it with a sandwich or one of our salads. And in lieu of cold soup, we've designed a unique line of smoothie bowls which actually have an ice cream like texture but are healthy. It's like eating a healthy ice cream. And that's designed for the summer months.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Okay, and what's your question for us?

[Bob Wolkoff]

So my question is that, so people love, they crave our soup after they try us. And we have a 4.9 star rating on Google. But there is a resistance to getting not the first adopters, but people that when they think of going to lunch, they think of Mexican, they think of hamburgers, they think think of a salad, they don't think of soup. And the other thing is when you're competing against brands that are already well known that we are not top of mind. And so my question is, how do we continue to acquire new customers?

[Guy Raz]

How do you break through? Right.

[Bob Wolkoff]

Oh, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

All right, Norma, thoughts for Bob. Questions for Bob.

[Norma Kamali]

The first thing I'm thinking is what is the value added? Is there nutritional value? Do you have information about the ingredients? Is it something that's efficient for especially for women or men who are working out and they want to keep their protein? Yeah, high protein and really low carbs. I love soup, but I always, I want to know the value of the calories I'm eating. What will the takeaway be?

[Bob Wolkoff]

So just to give you an idea, we had one customer who went to their dietician and said you can eat everything in the store. We actually have one soup that's a wellness soup, but all of our soups are gluten free, dairy free, with a lot of vegan options. We have 10 soups, five of them are meat, four chicken, and one delicious chili, and then five that are vegetarian. So they're, I mean, we put the reason I said sweetgreen is because I do look at us as in the healthy, fast, casual sector.

[Norma Kamali]

The nutrition, I think is everything and I think really promoting. So many people take supplements for good health. And if they know that in the soup, they're going to get that nutrition and have a tasty Kind of lunch at the same time. That's just a bonus.

[Guy Raz]

Bob, I'm curious. Your question is how do I get people to think of soup as a meal? And I imagine that really it's lunch, the lunchtime crowd that you want to focus on. And I'm looking at your website. Very nice. I love the graphics and the drawings and designs, but there's two things I don't see here. I don't see in ingredients, which I think would be really great to put on there. Just, you know, because I'm. I'm assuming they're clean, simple ingredients. You're using vegetables and broths. The second thing is, is there a world? And these are these. And, you know, this is a. As a guy who's been around in business for a long time, sometimes a slogan or, or a mantra or a mission statement can be transformational when everyone get. Can gather around a shared common definition of what you're doing. And I wonder if there's a world where you put something under Sunny Bowls instead of Superfood that says a new way to lunch or a new way to think about. Yeah, your meal.

[Bob Wolkoff]

One of the things we're trying to do also on our Instagram is have three kind of pillars. One healthy, two delicious, and three, we're trying to create kind of humorous brand to get people to connect. So, you know, I think of Geico and doing things that get people to want to view us and so forth.

[Guy Raz]

To me, it seems like the opportunity is in a breakthrough product like, or a breakthrough delivery mechanism where people start to talk about one thing that you're doing that then brings other people in. So here's my idea, Norma. I want to get your sense and give me real feedback. Don't just say, I love the idea, because if it's a stupid idea, tell me it's a stupid idea. But you know how people consume coffee today, right? They get a cup of coffee at Starbucks and they walk down the street with it, they're drinking the Starbucks coffee. What if there was like a pureed soup, like a sippin soup that you serve in like a to go coffee cup with your logo on it and you kind of market it as a grab and go.

[Bob Wolkoff]

Well, it's funny because one of the ideas I've had for the store is, you know, when Panera, you have the push for the coffee, but instead of coffee, we have different bone broth.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, yeah.

[Bob Wolkoff]

So you drink that as your.

[Guy Raz]

Are you doing that?

[Bob Wolkoff]

My operations person is fighting me on it.

[Guy Raz]

But you haven't started doing that yet.

[Bob Wolkoff]

No, we have not started doing that.

[Guy Raz]

Bone broth, Norma. Bone broth. Bone broth is no collagen. It's a hot thing. People love bone broth.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. Yeah. There's a brand in the US In New York that did a very successful bone broth presentation. However, in the summer months, they fell apart, and they couldn't carry it, as busy as they were in the winter. But I think the idea of a cup that really says, I am drinking soup, and it's from this place and that it's bold and beautiful. I love that idea.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. I mean, I think about the thing that Norma talked about with protein, to me, we hear it time and again. Protein is where this is going. Everybody is building protein. Not everybody, but lots of people are building protein brands. And I think. And Norma, you've written about this. You are. By the way, Bob, Norma is one of the foremost experts, really, truly experts on aging, nutrition America. And Norma, you're on this protein thing, right? This is a big part of how you. And it's not like you're eating steaks and chops every night, but it's a quality protein.

[Norma Kamali]

Right? Protein, I think, is really looked at now very carefully in building strength, muscle mass. And for me, it's very hard to get that protein in because I don't eat meat. But if I can get protein in any way, I'll have soup and vegetables and anything else, protein powders that can even be added to the soups. I think there's so much opportunity there.

[Guy Raz]

I think that there's one other idea I have for you, one other slogan. Your grandmother was right. Something like that.

[Norma Kamali]

I love it.

[Bob Wolkoff]

We have a Bubby's chicken soup.

[Guy Raz]

Perfect. Oh, maybe under there you say, your grandmother was right.

[Norma Kamali]

I love it. Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Because soup, nourishing, nutritious, filled with vitamins. You know, it's some way to get across the idea that you're in one quick, efficient delivery mechanism. You're getting pretty much everything you need for that meal.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Bob, I'm gonna come to Chicago once your new slogan is out, and this is a new way to eat lunch. I'm gonna say it's me, Bob, and I'm on my bowl of chili.

[Bob Wolkoff]

You're more than welcome. Love to have you.

[Guy Raz]

All right, Bob Wolkop, Sunny Bowles. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in.

[Norma Kamali]

Lots of luck, Bob. Good luck.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. That's good. I mean, so you don't do bone broth. Right. Because you're. You're a vegetarian.

[Norma Kamali]

I have started bone broth. But there are other broths that are vegetable broths and some. I just started eating chicken. I have to say, it's been a struggle.

[Guy Raz]

It's just. Because it's gross to you.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, as long as it's not recognizable. There's sort of kebabs and things like that that I can deal with.

[Guy Raz]

But, I mean, as you know, I eat meat, but I love tofu. I think tofu is a great protein source. Beans, great protein source.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, absolutely. That's for me. It's probably where I get most of my protein.

[Guy Raz]

Norma, I wish people listening could see you right now, because I'm, as you know, I'm 50. You're my model. I want to be you. That's what I want to be. I mean, you're physically fit, you're energetic, you're beautiful. You're just. You've got all these incredible energy ideas. I mean, how do we get there? What's the fountain of youth? What's the secret?

[Norma Kamali]

I think, you know, in the world we live in now, there's so much really good information on healthy lifestyle and the ability to change habits to more positive, proactive aging with power attitudes and learning something new every day and really keep moving. All of that is where everybody is going. And you're an example of.

[Guy Raz]

No, I'm not.

[Norma Kamali]

What that lets you are.

[Guy Raz]

You are. But how do you stay. I mean, I think a big part of it, Norma, isn't just what you eat and your exercise, but your outlook. How do you. I mean, I think part of it's just. You're just wired that way. You're just positive. You're wired that way. But it's a practice, too, right?

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, I think so. And one of the things that I realize is, and that was pointed out to me by Marty, is that Marty's your partner. Yes. And so he says, you know, you wake up every morning, no matter how bad the day before was, as if everything is okay. And. And I look at it as well. I have a new start. I have a new chance to try it again and not sort of hang in the dreary feeling of the day before. And I think that that's important to really clean the slate, take another look at it and give it another shot.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, Next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

[Adriana Alvarez]

No offense, but your brain is a terrible place to keep your big idea. It belongs in the world. But, you know, that already you have a calling, a voice that says this is what I'm meant to do. Create the website your big idea deserves with wix. Make it your own with top to bottom customization, AI to help realize your vision and built in business tools to turn your daydream into your dream job. WIX supports every stage of the business journey except one. Your decision to begin. Ready go to Wix.com.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Norma Kamali. So Norma, let's get right back into it and take another call.

[Norma Kamali]

I'm looking forward to.

[Guy Raz]

Yes, welcome to the advice line. You are on with Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself, tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

[F]

Hi there Norma. Hi there Guy. My name is Adriana Alvarez. I'm calling from Sacramento, California. I am the owner and the founder of lovehershop.com we are an athleisure brand and we are best known for our leggings. We do bring affordable products to the market. High quality products that women would typically want to see at a better price.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in. So Adriana, tell us a little bit more about it's activewear apparel, like stuff you wear to work out basically.

[F]

Yeah, definitely. It's all workout apparel. And all of our products are designed and engineered in house by our all women team. And these leggings, they came about to the market after I had an experience with a pair of leggings that were gifted to me that were from a very well known brand. They were very expensive, they were over a hundred dollars a pair. And after I used them, I realized that they actually didn't work for me. And I didn't know if they didn't work for me because I mean so many women use this particular brand. But then I started realizing when I went back to the group of women and moms that I was working out with, a lot of them said the same thing. So it turns out that, you know, moms or women that have curves, women that have different body types, we do need something that holds us in a little bit better, that kind of accentuates our curves. And also a lot of the moms that I was working out with were not willing to pay $100 for a pair of leggings.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Wow. It's so cool. So and so it's not like quote unquote, sort of plus size is designed for all body types essentially.

[F]

Yeah, definitely. All body types, but these definitely are leggings that you would work out in. For example, we get a lot of the feedback from our customers stating that they love that our leggings stay in place during workouts that require a lot of jumping, jump squats. Also, women have ran marathons in our leggings. And one of the biggest things I think we get is the way that they feel on their body is more of a shapewear effect, but they do look amazing, and they kind of lift and tone and. And they kind of suck you in.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. And I'm looking at your website now, and. And it's like 35 bucks for a pair of leggings. I think, you know, just to name a brand, we've had the founder of Lululemon on the show and a few years ago, Chip Wilson. He's not involved anymore, but they're like a hundred bucks for a pair of Lululemons. And this is a very competitive space that you've gotten into Athleisurewear. Really hard for one person to start it on their own. Are you bootstrapping this thing?

[F]

Yeah. I started this business after it actually started as a side hustle. But during COVID I worked for the Coca Cola company, and during COVID Coca Cola decided to kill off a brand that I was helping manage. And at that point, I decided to take my severance package and inject it 100% in my own business. And first year of sales, this is when I was still running it out of my house, I did over a million dollars in sales.

[Norma Kamali]

Wow.

[Guy Raz]

And that was purely by doing, like, social media ads and stuff like that.

[F]

Yeah, ads. I've never paid for an influencer to speak about our brand. Our customers are our influencers. I've kind of always been an authentic person where I don't want somebody to sell me something because they're being paid to be, you know, out there selling it. So I think what has made us very successful is a lot of, like, moms have power, man. Moms will share with their social media groups, and that's kind of how we took off.

[Guy Raz]

That's awesome. And what's your question for us today?

[F]

So my question is we're currently, like, at an expansion stage. We've been growing, and we're. We've been so blessed with the growth. However we are looking, I don't know if it's right. Now is a good time for us to look for outside investors to bring into the business so that we can say yes to a lot of the things that we have Currently been saying no to just because we don't have the staff or we don't have the expertise in those areas.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Okay. Norma. Wow. Right up your alley. We're talking about an apparel brand here and Adriana's doing something different. It's lower price point. It's really designed to accentuate curves. She's bootstrapped this thing. You have bootstrapped your business and now you're 100% owner of it. First of all, questions for Adriana.

[Norma Kamali]

Well, first of all, your website looks fantastic.

[F]

Thank you.

[Norma Kamali]

The mom's focus, very specialized. Everything looks great. I love that you have a huge marketplace to reach out to. Nothing better than moms who have had babies. They want to feel good. They always want to work out. They want to feel held in. I commend you for really being very smart about what you decided to put your severance money in, and that was a good idea. I think the next step is usually the tough one because you have to make big decisions. Where are you going to get additional funding? I think there are choices you have, and I think friends and family are always a good step. People that are your customers could also be good investors. I think before you jump into a relationship where they take a part of your business or a percentage of what you're doing, I think you're still identifying who you are and building that. And I think you have a little ways to go as far as investment in fabric and cost of goods. Where do you make them?

[F]

We do make it all overseas. We have five different manufacturer, five different cut and sews, but we do actually have our own. We source our material and then we have our material sent to our cut and sews. Just so that. Because we're very specific on the material we're using.

[Norma Kamali]

And is the distribution other than your website?

[F]

No, not at all. We started as really just doing pop up shops and when we pivoted over to online sales, that's when the business and the focus really took us there. So we couldn't pivot back just because we're doing so much online sales.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. And what about sales on TikTok or Instagram or.

[F]

We do not sell on TikTok. We have an Instagram page, but we do not sell directly on Instagram either.

[Norma Kamali]

I would try it. I would try it. We do very well. I think it's a very big opportunity. Learn a little bit more about it because it opens up another. It's like having another store.

[F]

I see.

[Guy Raz]

Adriana, are you specifically targeting moms or women who are mom ages.

[F]

It is women that are mom ages, because we do have a lot of customers that are not moms, but are like. We get a lot of college customers.

[Guy Raz]

Between, like, 20 and 40.

[F]

Yes, definitely. I would say it's between 25 and 45. Is our demographic or sweet spot.

[Guy Raz]

You know, we did an episode on 21 seeds tequila recently, and that the. What differentiated that brand was basically it was. It was tequila for moms, you know, or book club. It was. And people were making tequila for frat boys and, you know, men sipping tequila. Nobody was making. I mean, very few people were focusing on moms. And I love this idea because if you look. And I just looked at this, if you look at the spending power of women in the United States between 25 and 45, it's like 5 to 15 trillion dollars a year. It's a massive amount of money in terms of what they spend, not obviously, on athleisure wear, just everything overall. But it's a huge opportunity, and there's a clear thesis here, which I really love.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, it's very impressive. And I think there are a lot of mom bloggers, too, that are so good, and they really have a great audience, and you might want to invite some of them to be a part of your world. You know, I think doing collaborations now would be a good idea for you. And I think the bloggers are all so good. They tell their stories about being mothers and how they feel about their bodies and what's going on in their lives. And I think bringing in that conversation and making your website also a place where people go for information just to bring. Populate it more would be, I think, a lot of fun.

[F]

I love that idea.

[Guy Raz]

Adriana, what do you. I mean, in terms of raising money, obviously it would enable you to scale, but just roughly, what are you estimating your revenue to be this year?

[F]

Our revenue right now, we're targeted at being. We're ending the year at $2 million in sales.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Amazing.

[F]

Yeah. And the key points that we would need the capital for that we haven't done, but we want to go into is wholesale distribution expanding and creating a petite line and more sizes, like plus sizes.

[Guy Raz]

So there's an argument to be made, right, that having outside capital will help you get there. People are going to give you different advice, right? Some people are going to say, hang on as long as possible, because the longer you can hold on and scale it on your own, the greater the value and the more you can retain. That being said, if you can find the right partner who has wholesale apparel experience. Maybe it's a factory, maybe they become a co investor. That's where I think it starts to make sense to really explore it. If it's just a money play, if it's just about finding somebody with extra cash but without the expertise, I would say no way. Focus on building the business on your own. But if you can find a really experienced strategic investor who knows how to get in to wholesale, who's done it, then it makes sense to me. To me, it seems like that's really what you want to look for. And that's not easy. That's going to take some time.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. I want to add, be very careful about entering the wholesale distribution network. First of all, one of my questions is costing and making sure that you're meeting your margins because you are selling through your own website. I'm sure you have a cushion there. But once you get into wholesale, there are going to be all kinds of questions. Wanting discounts, wanting all kinds of promotional money. You're in their hands. They are also buying other brands who compete with you and you lose the control you have right now. So I would look at more and more opportunities where you have the control, you have the profit margin. Especially if you make a mistake, especially if something happens with a fabric you bought or something goes wrong, you have a cushion because of the margin. But before you go into wholesale, take a serious. I would be happy to. If you wanted to reach out to me, I'd be happy to walk you through that because it's very different and it doesn't mean you can't do it. It's just being very sure about every expanding out in your world first to take every opportunity. But I love it.

[F]

Thank you.

[Norma Kamali]

I'm really impressed. I really am. I know you're going to be successful. I'm positive.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you, Adriana. Congrats. Adriana Alvarez. Love her shop. Good luck. We'll be here.

[F]

Thank you so much.

[Norma Kamali]

Congratulations.

[Guy Raz]

Norma. Before I let you go, one last question, which I ask everybody who's been, who's come back on as a mentor, which is if you were to travel back in time to the Norma in the 1960s, Norma Kamali in the 1960s. And you could say, Norma, I'm coming from 2024 with a piece of advice, something I want you to know. What's something that you would want her to know about business?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, you know, I have to say I really benefited from my mistakes and learning and getting advice from people who really helped me along the way. And we demonstrated that you Demonstrate it. I am so impressed with your advice and you of course are an expert on entrepreneurs and every bit of advice you gave today was stunning. It was amazing. So you deserve the reputation you have. You earned it. This is such a generous venture for you to take and I just love you and I'm so proud to know you. You're really an instructor.

[Guy Raz]

Rush and Cry Norma at the same time. Well, you're the best, you know you're the best. And I hope to come see you in New York soon. Hope to see you soon. Hope so. That is the iconic fashion designer Norma Kamali. And by the way, if you haven't heard Norma's original How I Built this, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Norma Kamali]

Well, I started to make some things and I would put them in the store to see how they would do and they would would do really well. And so the majority of the stock slowly became my designs and I had a full page in Vogue and I had a good size page in Bazaar and that was beyond belief because I thought somebody is going to find me out. I don't know what I'm doing and I have a full page in Vogue and Bizarre. This is nuts. Like I don't have a clue.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtina Rabloui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Chris Masini, Carla estevez, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Katherine Cipher, Devin Schwartz, Neva Grant and Sam Paul Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.