Norma Kamali (4:46)

I'm happy to be back.

Guy Raz (4:48)

It's so great to have you back on the show. You were first on How I built this in 2021 and and of course you told the story of how you built your hugely influential fashion business. And of course, if those of you listening have not heard that story, please go back in our podcast feed and listen to it. We'll also put a link in the description. It is such an amazing story, but basically in the 60s, Norma was working as an airline clerk and then using her employee discount to fly to London and then buy up clothes, sort of secondhand clothes there, and then opened a store in New York to sell them, eventually started designing your own clothing and you created all these iconic pieces, Farrah Fawcett's red swimsuit, the sleeping bag jacket, and really built one of the first great American brands. And let me just say it again, Norma, you are a legend. Eight decades of life and you are still actively running your brand out of New York City today.

Norma Kamali (5:48)

Yep. Yes Very actively and enjoying every minute of it. I feel privileged to have a creative life.

Guy Raz (5:58)

I'm very lucky and total inspiration. Norma, you really are. We have a bunch of early stage founders here ready to jump on. But before they do, if you want to indulge me, I've got a couple of questions for you before we bring them on. So, you know, you really built your brand on designs that stood out in part because they were so different. They were kind of weird at the time. But just because customers love a product, right, and they love and loved yours, it doesn't always mean that the business is profitable. There was a point in your journey where you were really hot in the New York fashion world, but you guys were having trouble paying the rent. I remember you telling us this story. How do you turn customer love and satisfaction and buzz around your brand into growth, into profitability?

Norma Kamali (6:51)

Well, I think a lot of creative people believe they're not good at business, and I believe that that's not true. I think it's something we've been fed to believe, and I think the more you can learn about business, and maybe it's by having really good mentors. I was very fortunate to have incredible advice throughout my career and learning as much as I could about how to look at where I needed help in the business, how I needed to evaluate sales versus productivity, and also how to maximize the opportunity of the attention you're getting from the pressure. And that's as important as the creative concept storytelling.

Guy Raz (7:51)

Norma, your brand was and is your vision, right? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs can identify with that. Right? That feeling. But at a certain point, certainly in your industry, to become a global brand, you often have to partner with bigger companies, right? You worked with Walmart, you worked with. You did a lot of interesting things. And so how do you protect your vision when you start to do things like, you know, work with partners, with.

Norma Kamali (8:24)

Bigger partners, that's the big challenge. And I still am the sole owner of my company, which tells you I really like to control the fit and the quality of the product, But I was copied a lot, and I wasn't making money because other people were making money from my designs. And when. When I knew I did a collection that I felt was strong, I partnered with Jones Apparel, and it was a huge success because I had the ability to use their manufacturing and distribution and sales with my designs and sort of storytelling. And the combination was incredibly profitable for everyone. By doing that, it gave me exposure and the ability to do many other things and also go to sleep at Night knowing I could pay the rent. Finally.

Guy Raz (9:30)

Yeah, I love it. All right, Norma, why don't we bring in our first caller? Great. And let's bring caller number one onto the show. Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with me and Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business and we'll take it from there.

Ahmed Ijaz (9:50)

Well, hello. Lovely to meet you both. My name is Ahmed Ijaz. I am calling from England in the United Kingdom and I am the founder of Cambridge Spectacle Company. We make beautiful glasses and we've started to do eye examinations as well now.

Guy Raz (10:04)

Amazing. Okay, welcome to the show, Ahmed, and thank you for calling in. So you have a. Is it like, are you an optometrist? Do you do, like, eye exams and sell glasses?

Ahmed Ijaz (10:14)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I am actually an optometrist by training, but when I started this brand, I actually quit my job as an optometrist and started focusing on designing glasses. Designing prescription eyewear. Yeah. So we initially started with a sort of a distribution deal with a big company in the UK who were part of Walmart at the time as their opticians. And that, that was great. But we've moved into opening our own optometry practices now. So, you know, so similar to Warby Parker in the United States, that kind of brand.

Guy Raz (10:52)

I see. Okay, now I'm starting to make sense. You're basically trying to model your business off of Warby Parker in the us like, basically high designs, high end quality designs, but at a lower price point.

Ahmed Ijaz (11:06)

Yeah, exactly. So for me, Warby, when those guys did what they did, I was just sort of qualifying for music University and I thought it was game changing and I didn't quite understand why we didn't have something similar in the uk. And, you know, we weren't celebrating British eyewear. We know we've got Oakley and Ray Ban as American companies and there's a lot of Scandinavian companies out there. But I felt that there really needed to be a, you know, hopefully one day a global British eyewear brand that dominates. Yeah.

Guy Raz (11:36)

And presumably Warby Parker doesn't operate. I think they only operate in the us, Right.

Ahmed Ijaz (11:40)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I did send them an email in 2015 and I said to them, to the customer service, I'd love to start this in the uk, But I didn't hear back, so I thought, well, I better start this myself.

Guy Raz (11:54)

Thanks. Well, I'm sure you heard our episode with Warby Parker, with Neil Blumenthal.

Ahmed Ijaz (11:57)

Yeah, both of them. Yeah.

Guy Raz (11:58)

Yeah. And amazing story. Okay, so what's the vision here? The vision, presumably, is to try and scale this thing.

Ahmed Ijaz (12:06)

Yeah. So look, we're opening a second store in London in the next week or so. We've just acquired a store there and we've acquired that customer database and all the frames are going to be changed to Cambridge Spectacle Co Frames. And then we're in negotiations right now to open a third store in Birmingham. So the goal is three sites by the end of this year.

Guy Raz (12:29)

How are you financing all this?

Ahmed Ijaz (12:32)

Well, it's part of my question, but we're sort of angel investor backed. So a friend of mine, he sort of said, how much do you need to get going? And I had no money, but I had a deal on the table with Asda Opticians. I didn't tell them I had no money. And my friend, I told him I needed £150,000 to get going. And he fortunately said, I'll do you the full amount, Ahmed, because I know you and I trust you. So he kicked us off and then we did a little bit of crowdfunding as well, via a European crowd equity platform.

Guy Raz (13:05)

I got a bunch of questions for you, but before I do that, I want to hear what your question is for us today.

Ahmed Ijaz (13:10)

Yeah, so look, I think that customer proposition is strong and customers seem to love our brand, but the question really is, how do we get that same kind of excitement around the brand across to investors? Because it's very difficult when you're in a pitch and you've got, you know, five, 10 minutes and they're seeing pitch after pitches as angels or VC for them to fall in love with your brand? So, you know, how are we really going to be able to translate that love and show them not just the financials, but, hey, this is, this is going to be big. You know, customers love this.

Guy Raz (13:43)

And how do you get. How do you generate the buzz to attract investors? Just out of curiosity, what's your revenue right now?

Ahmed Ijaz (13:50)

So we're doing about. In the store, about £20,000 to £25,000. About 30. So $35,000 a month. That's in the first year.

Guy Raz (13:59)

That's great. Okay, so you're looking at three to 350,000, maybe 400,000 revenue this year. Let me bring in Norma Kamali. Norma, I have a lot of questions. You may have questions for Ahmed. Go. Let's hear your thoughts.

Norma Kamali (14:13)

Well, I think the first question I have is what makes you different other than your ambition to use your reputation and your history and Value, but it really takes a lot more to sell someone and it has to be done maybe in a sentence or two and no more. So what is different about your product or your approach to marketing your product that would make me want to invest in your potential success?

Ahmed Ijaz (15:04)

Yeah, so I mean, I think from a, from a customer point of view, we always tell them how our designs are inspired by Cambridge and made by us rather than.

Guy Raz (15:14)

And you say Cambridge like the town of Cambridge, the university, the sort of aura of that town.

Ahmed Ijaz (15:21)

Yeah, exactly. So I lived there for a while and my brother who helped out is an MBA from the university. And so we will always discuss with the patients the fact that all the glasses are inspired by that city, named after roads, places in that city. And that's what customers seem to be responding well to. And then also we give a portion of our profits to iResearch as well. But I think, Norma, this is where I struggle, that if I gave that across to an investor, it's probably not the thing that excites them. Or maybe it is, maybe I'm just not explaining it and they would be excited by that.

Norma Kamali (15:58)

Well, I must say I now think, oh, this is interesting. It's a very authentic British brand that has the character of history and quality just by that reference. And the idea of your contributing to the health and wellbeing of eye care was very nice and very a sign of goodwill on top of this classic British history that you're basing the brand on. So those two points definitely have more of my interest than the idea of the name. And you're opening different brick and mortar locations first, knowing that history and the reference definitely raises interest.

Guy Raz (16:53)

You know, it's interesting because I'm looking at your website here and your question is, how do we generate more buzz around the story? And the story is if the story is Cambridge, like the university, the aura of that place, I'm not seeing enough of that. What Warby Parker did really well was first of all, it was an invented name, right? And they took two names from Jack Kerouac books and put them together. But then they named their glasses, they gave each pair of glasses, each design an interesting name. Like is there a world where? Could you just looking at the list of graduates of the University of Cambridge, I mean, could you call one like George V, a pair of glasses called the Cornwall. Here you Pitt Munger, I love it. There's all these people who are Nehru, Nehru went to Cambridge. Could you call a pair of the Nehru's? I mean it just seems like there's a way to connect it more closely because for most people, Cambridge is the university. Right. Maybe even make, like, a pair called, like, the Philbes. Right. Because those spies went there. To me, if the story is about Britain, Cambridge, you gotta lean into that more before you're gonna really be able to get people excited about it.

Ahmed Ijaz (18:05)

Yeah, No, I think, Guy, that's an incredible approach and idea. You know, Prince, I think, was named when we designed that after Prince Charles at the time, who's now King Charles because he went to the University of Cambridge. But you wouldn't really know that looking at it. Right. So I think, yeah, we must do better at that. And if that's what generates the buzz, and as Norma says, if you are excited by the fact that it's linked so heavily to Cambridge, then that's a great idea.

Guy Raz (18:35)

Yeah. Norma. The other thing I'm wondering about is, like, in fashion, right, the trick is to get the cool kids to wear your stuff. Like, the other thing Warby Parker did is they found the cool kids who are frugal, who didn't have money but could wear their glasses. That's. Those are the people. They got those glasses on. Right. Normally. I mean, it's the same in fashion, right?

Norma Kamali (18:58)

Yeah. I've been thinking from the beginning of the conversation, well, what's the demographic? We know if you have a great price, you can have a younger demographic. And I think having some sort of an interaction with the clients to take pictures of themselves, put it on social media wearing your glasses. And also, how many things can you do with those glasses? They can obviously be prescription. They can. I use mine for my computer where I have a soft tint, but I also have sunglass versions of my prescription. So I think having, you know, really rolling out all the possibilities and looking at marketing it through actual evolution of your client base.

Ahmed Ijaz (19:55)

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a good idea. I mean, when we started the brand, we had to think about the audience and older, young. And whilst we knew older people would buy varifocals and bifocals and they would be ultimately more expensive and more profitable, we decided that, well, if you build a brand for younger people, the older people will come, but if you build a brand for older people, the younger people won't get into it. Right. So, yeah, I think we do need to go back to making sure that we get the younger people in to promote the brand. As you say, Warby did. Yeah, which would. Which would be a great idea.

Guy Raz (20:27)

You know, there's an episode of the show we did maybe a year or two ago on Mod Pizza. And actually the founders were on the advice line a couple months ago and what's cool, you should listen to that episode because their first business that they started was called Seattle Coffee Company and they started it in a kiosk at Covent Garden and they saw what was happening with Starbucks in the US at the time. And this was in the 90s. They saw Starbucks was growing so fast they decided to replicate that model in the uk. There were two Americans, Ali and Scott Svensson, and they very quickly found investors to scale Seattle Coffee Company and just build. I think they built like 50 locations across the UK in just a matter of a few years. And then of course Starbucks came in and bought it and converted them all to Starbucks, which was a great outcome for everybody. To me, there's a world where something like that could happen, you know, where a world where Warby Parker decides to go to the uk, you know, but, but to get that kind of money and to build that scale quickly back to your, your question. You've got to just get your story down because. Because you have all the, the fundamentals, the foundation there. It's just now really chiseling away and getting it right.

Ahmed Ijaz (21:49)

Yeah, I mean, look, getting to 50 stores is, you know, my ambition is to get to 100 stores and if Warby Parker or someone comes along, we'd be happy to talk at that point. We have actually spoken to a big British VC here in the UK and they have said that get to five stores and we will look at backing you to get to 20 with a few million pounds. But we had a connection to that investor at that VC firm. So he's been great and he's been monitoring our progress, but it's just making sure that the other BCS do follow on in that round as well and having that kind of growth story that war we had in America.

Guy Raz (22:24)

Yeah, it's awesome, awesome idea. Ahmadijaz, thanks so much. The brand is called Cambridge Spectacle. Good luck.

Norma Kamali (22:32)

Good luck.

Guy Raz (22:32)

Good luck to you.

Ahmed Ijaz (22:33)

Nice to meet you both. Thank you. Thanks so much for the advice.

Norma Kamali (22:35)

That's great.

Guy Raz (22:37)

I mean he's got a Cromwells. I'm looking at this list. He's the Nehru's so much fun Walpoles. He just has to name them after people have been long dead.

Norma Kamali (22:49)

I think he has to focus on the story and creating a buzz before he opens more stores. I think getting really grounding that message. True British character and fun.

Guy Raz (23:08)

Yeah. And I mean the thing about the UK is that it's a total addressable market. There is still significant, right? Population? Absolutely 65 million. It's a big I. It's a. You can build a huge brand just in the uk.

Norma Kamali (23:20)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (23:20)

Not. You can't do that in every European country. It's not easy to do that in like, you know, Liechtenstein. But you could do that in the uk.

Norma Kamali (23:28)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (23:30)

Stay with us because after the break we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Inflation's up or it's down. Some days you wish someone would just invent a crystal ball. Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one Cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. Tons and tons of brands and businesses that we featured on this show depend on NetSuite by Oracle. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com BILT the guide is free to you at netsuite.com bilt netsuite.com BILt Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favor. Favorite genres from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers, from romance and well being to fiction. Audible's carefully curated lists in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best of the Year in audio entertainment. Like an almost unbelievably star studded production of George Orwell's 1984, which both honors and invigorates the terrifying classic. It's one of the best original dramatizations we've ever heard. Or check out romance that hits the spot, like Emily Henry's Funny Story. You can also find heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely One and listen to the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Right now I'm listening to Prophet Song by Paul Lynch. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com built and discover all the years best waiting for you. Ah. And here we have travelers in their natural habitat enjoying guaranteed 4pm checkout at fine hotels and resorts booked through AmexTravel. And they don't even see what's coming at them. We're in.

Bob Wolkoff (26:22)

We got the table.

Guy Raz (26:23)

Yep. With resi priority. Notify they're alerted when hard to get. Reservations open up.

Norma Kamali (26:27)

Reservation for two.

Guy Raz (26:30)

Save the best for last. Thanks to Amex Platinum, the last day vacation brings yet another experience. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com rhythmics welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is fashion designer Norma Kamali. Norma, what do you say? Should we take another call?

Norma Kamali (26:58)

I think so. Lots of fun.

Guy Raz (27:00)

Hello, caller. Please join us. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with me, Norma Kamali. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just very briefly about your business.

Adriana Alvarez (27:10)

I'm Bob Wolkoff from Chicago. Big fan of the show Sunny Bowles, which I'm the founder of, is a new category in the fast casual restaurant industry where soup is the star of the menu. Our goal is to become the sweet green of soup.

Guy Raz (27:26)

I love it. Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. The sweet green of soup. That's very clear. I know exact. I can already imagine exactly what you're trying to do. So you've got one or one shop in Chicago right now?

Adriana Alvarez (27:40)

We have two. One at the Merchandise Mart and one at Northwestern Hospital.

Guy Raz (27:44)

And when did you start this? When did you launch this brand?

Adriana Alvarez (27:46)

Well, I started it when Covid was still a thing, toward the end of it. And I'm a contrarian. And just believe that if I started when all the restaurants were closing and I could build brand and start to learn a business that I didn't know, that's what I did.

Guy Raz (28:03)

I love it. Were you in food at the time? I mean, was that. Was that your background?

Adriana Alvarez (28:07)

My whole career was in real estate. And I had this idea when I was in my 20s and I finally decided to open it when I was 58.

Guy Raz (28:17)

I love it. So really starting from scratch at 58, we just did a great episode about Lily's chocolates and Cynthia Tice was 57 when she started that brand. So you open the first location, you've got two now and you. And it's soup. Basically that's what you sell.

Adriana Alvarez (28:34)

So soup is the star.

Guy Raz (28:36)

Okay.

Adriana Alvarez (28:37)

So if you picture an ice cream store, but instead of ice cream, we have 10 soups that were actually designed by a James Beard award winning chef.

Guy Raz (28:46)

Nice.

Adriana Alvarez (28:46)

And you pair it, or you can pair it with a sandwich or one of our salads. And in lieu of cold soup, we've designed a unique line of smoothie bowls which actually have an ice cream like texture but are healthy. It's like eating a healthy ice cream. And that's, that's designed for the summer months.

Guy Raz (29:06)

Got it. Okay, and what's your question for us?

Adriana Alvarez (29:10)

So my question is that, so people love, they crave our soup after they try us. And we have a 4.9 star rating on Google. But there is a resistance to getting not the first adopters, but people that when they think of going to lunch, they think of Mexico, they think of hamburgers, they think of a salad, they don't think of soup. And the other thing is when you're competing against brands that are already well known that we are not top of mind. And so my question is, how do we continue to acquire new customers?

Guy Raz (29:48)

How do you break through? Right.

Adriana Alvarez (29:50)

Oh, yeah.

Guy Raz (29:50)

All right, Norma, thoughts for Bob. Questions for Bob.

Norma Kamali (29:57)

The first thing I'm thinking is what is the value added? Is there nutritional value? Do you have information about the ingredients? Is it something that's efficient for. Especially for women or men who are working out and they want to keep their protein? Yeah, high protein and really low carbs. I love soup, but I always, I want to know the value of the calories I'm eating. What will the takeaway be?

Adriana Alvarez (30:36)

So just to give you an idea, we had one customer who went to their dietician and said, you can eat everything in the store. We actually have one soup that's a wellness soup, but all of our soups are gluten free, dairy free, with a lot of vegan options. We have 10 soups, five of them are meat, four chicken, and one delicious chili. And then five that are vegetarian. So they're. I mean, we put. The reason I said sweet green is because I do look at us as in the healthy, fast, casual sector.

Norma Kamali (31:10)

The nutrition, I think is everything. And I think really promoting. So many people take supplements for good health. And if they know that in the soup, they're going to get that nutrition and have a tasty kind of lunch at the Same time. That's just a bonus.

Guy Raz (31:33)

Bob, I'm curious. Your question is how do I get people to think of soup as a meal? And I imagine that really it's lunch, the lunchtime crowd that you want to focus on. And I'm looking at your website. Very nice. I love the graphics and the drawings and designs, but there's two things I don't see here. I don't see any ingredients which I think would be really great to put on there. Just, you know, because I'm. I'm assuming they're clean, simple ingredients. You're using vegetables and broths. The second thing is, is there a world? And these are these. And you know this as a guy who's been around in business for a long time, sometimes a slogan or a mantra or a mission statement can be transformational when everyone get. Can gather around a shared, common definition of what you're doing. And I wonder if there's a world where you put something under Sunny Bowls instead of Superfood that says, you know, a new way to lunch or a new way to think about, yeah, your meal.

Adriana Alvarez (32:33)

One of the things we're trying to do also, like on our Instagram, is have three kind of pillars. One healthy, two delicious, and three, we're trying to create kind of a. A humorous brand to get people to connect. So I think of Geico and doing things that get people to want to view us and so forth.

Guy Raz (32:57)

To me, it seems like the opportunity is in a breakthrough product or a breakthrough delivery mechanism where people start to talk about one thing that you're doing that then brings other people in. So here's my idea. Norma, I want to get your sense. Give me real feedback. Don't just say, I love the idea, because if it's the stupid idea, tell me it's a stupid idea. But you know how people consume coffee today, right? They get a cup of coffee at Starbucks and they walk down the street with it, they're drinking the Starbucks coffee. What if there was like a pureed soup, like a sip in soup that you serve in like a to go coffee cup with your logo on it, and you kind of market it as a grab and go.

Adriana Alvarez (33:45)

Well, it's funny because one of the ideas I've had for the store is, you know, when Panera, you have the push for the coffee, but instead of coffee, we have different bone broth.

Guy Raz (33:55)

Oh, yeah.

Adriana Alvarez (33:56)

So you drink that as your.

Guy Raz (33:57)

Are you doing that?

Adriana Alvarez (33:58)

My direct, my operations person is fighting me on it.

Guy Raz (34:03)

But you haven't started doing that yet?

Adriana Alvarez (34:04)

No, we have not started doing that.

Guy Raz (34:06)

Bone bro. Norma, Bone broth. Bone broth is no collagen. It's a hot thing. People love bone broth.

Norma Kamali (34:13)

Yeah. Yeah. There's a brand in the US In New York that did a very successful bone broth presentation. However, in the summer months, they fell apart and they couldn't carry it as busy as they were in the winter. But I think the idea of having. Having a cup that really says, I am drinking soup and it's from this place and that it's bold and beautiful. I love that idea.

Guy Raz (34:52)

Yeah. I mean, I think about the thing that Norma talked about with protein, to me, we hear it time and again. Protein is where this is going. Everybody is building protein. Not everybody, but lots of people are building protein brands. And. And Norma, you've written about this. You are. By the way, Bob, Norma is one of the foremost experts, really, truly experts on aging and nutrition in America. And Norma, you're on this protein thing, right? This is a big part of how you. And it's not like you're eating steaks and chops every night, but it's a quality protein.

Norma Kamali (35:29)

Right. Protein, I think, is really looked at now very carefully in building strength, muscle mass. And for me, it's very hard to get that protein in because I don't eat meat. But if I can get protein in any way, I'll have soup and vegetables and anything else, protein powders that can even be added to the soups. I think there's so much opportunity there.

Guy Raz (36:02)

I think that there's one other idea I have for you, one other slogan. Your grandmother was right. Something like that. I love it.

Norma Kamali (36:11)

I love it.

Adriana Alvarez (36:12)

We have a Bubby's chicken soup.

Guy Raz (36:13)

Perfect. Oh, maybe under there you say, your grandmother was right. I love it because soup, nourishing, nutritious, filled with vitamins. You know, it's some way to get across the idea that you're in one quick, efficient delivery mechanism. You're getting pretty much everything you need for that meal.

Norma Kamali (36:36)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (36:37)

Bob, I'm going to come to Chicago. Once your new slogan is out and it says a new way to eat lunch. I'm going to say, it's me, Bob, and I want my bowl of chili.

Adriana Alvarez (36:48)

You're more than welcome. Love to have you.

Guy Raz (36:50)

All right, Bob Wolcop, Sonny Bowles. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in.

Norma Kamali (36:54)

Lots of luck, Bob. Good luck.

Guy Raz (36:56)

Yeah. I mean, so you don't do bone broth. Right. Because you're a vegetarian.

Norma Kamali (37:02)

I have started bone broth, but there are other broths that are vegetable Broths and some. I just started eating chicken. I have to say, it's been a struggle.

Guy Raz (37:14)

It's just. Cause it's gross to you.

Norma Kamali (37:16)

Yeah, as long as it's not recognizable. There's sort of kebabs and things like that that I can deal with.

Guy Raz (37:22)

But I mean, as you know, I eat meat, but I love tofu, I think was a great protein source. Beans, Great protein source.

Norma Kamali (37:28)

Yeah, absolutely. That's for me. It's probably where I get most of my protein.

Guy Raz (37:35)

Norma, I wish people listening could see you right now, because I'm as you know, I'm 50. You're my model. I want to be you. That's what I want to be. I mean, you're physically fit, you're energetic, you're beautiful. You're just. You've got all these incredible energy ideas. I mean, how do we get there? What's the fountain of youth? What's the secret?

Norma Kamali (38:00)

I think, you know, in the world we live in now, there's so much really good information on healthy lifestyle and the ability to change habits to more positive, proactive aging with power attitudes and learning something new every day and. And really keep moving. All of that is where everybody is going. And you're an example of.

Guy Raz (38:30)

No, I'm not.

Norma Kamali (38:31)

What that. Less. You are.

Guy Raz (38:32)

You are. But how do you stay. I mean, I think a big part of it, Norma, isn't just what you eat and your exercise, but your outlook. How do you. I mean, I think part of it's just. You're just wired that way. You're just positive you're wired that way. But it's a practice, too, right?

Norma Kamali (38:48)

Yeah, I think so. And one of the things that I realize is, and that was pointed out to me by Marty, is that Marty's your partner. Yes. And so he says, you know, you wake up every morning, no matter how bad the day before was, as if everything is okay. And. And I look at it as well. I have a new start. I have a new chance to try it again and not sort of hang in the dreary feeling of the day before. And I think that that's important to really clean the slate, take another look at it and give it another shot.

Guy Raz (39:36)

Okay, Next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. If you've been listening to me for a while, you know that I am really interested in fitness and eating the right foods. And for the past year, the single biggest game changer for me has been a bio wearable called Lingo. Basically, it's a little device that you stick onto the back of your arm to measure your body's glucose levels. To see how your body responds to food and learn what you can do to improve your metabolism, try Lingo. It starts at $49 for a two week plan. No prescription needed for a limited time. Save 10% on your first order by visiting hello lingo.com and using the code HIBT at checkout. The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 years and older not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. For more information, please visit hello lingo.com us you know when you're shopping for like a new car or even a new bike, which I was shopping for recently, and you want to find one with all the right features, something that fits exactly what you need? Well, that's the way it feels today, trying to find the right AI tools for your business. You want to get it right, but it's not always clear which tools are actually going to help. Grammarly is designed to fit your business's unique needs and works right away to help contribute to your overall success. Grammarly works effortlessly with the apps I already use every single day and it saves me so much time while I'm writing. With its super helpful AI prompts, Grammarly works where you work from docs to messages to emails, integrating seamlessly across 500,000 apps and websites. No cutting, no pasting, no context switching. Join 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to work faster and hit their goals while keeping their data Secure. Go to Grammarly.comenterprise to learn more Grammarly Enterprise Ready AI welcome back to the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Norma Kamali. So Norma, let's get right back into it and take another call. I'm looking forward to yes, welcome to the Advice line. You are on with Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself. Tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

Bob Wolkoff (42:16)

Hi there Norma. Hi there Guy. My name is Adriana Alvarez. I'm calling from Sacramento, California. I am the owner and the founder of lovehershop.com. we are an athleisure brand and we are best known for our leggings. We do bring affordable products to the market. High quality products that women would typically want to see at a better price.

Guy Raz (42:41)

Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in. So Adriana, tell us a little bit more about it's active wear apparel stuff you'd wear to work out? Basically.

Bob Wolkoff (42:52)

Yeah, definitely. It's all workout apparel. And all of our products are designed and engineered in house by our all women team. And these leggings, they came about to the market after I had an experience with a pair of leggings that were gifted to me that were from a very well known brand. They were very expensive, they were over $100 a pair. And after I used them, I realized that they actually didn't work for me. And I didn't know if they didn't work for me because, I mean, so many women use this particular brand. But then I started realizing when I went back to the group of women and moms that I was working out with, a lot of them said the same thing. So it turns out that, you know, moms or women that have curves, women that have different body types. Types. We do need something that holds us in a little bit better, that kind of accentuates our curves. And also a lot of the moms that I was working out with were not willing to pay $100 for a pair of leggings.

Guy Raz (43:52)

Yeah. Wow. It's so cool. So, and so it's not like, quote unquote, surplus size is designed for all body types, essentially.

Bob Wolkoff (44:02)

Yeah, definitely all body types. But these definitely are leggings that you would work out in. For example, we get a lot of the feedback from our customers stating that they love that our leggings stay in place during workouts that require a lot of jumping, jump squats. Also, women have ran marathons in our leggings. And one of the biggest things I think we get is the way that they feel on their body is more of a shapewear effect, but they do look amazing and they kind of lift and tone and they kind of suck you in.

Guy Raz (44:32)

Wow. And I'm looking at your website now, and it's like 35 bucks for a pair of leggings. I think, you know, just to name a brand, we've had the founder of Lululemon on the show a few years ago, Chip Wilson. He's not involved anymore, but they're like 100 bucks for a pair of Lululemons. And this is a very competitive space that you've gotten into athleisureware and really hard for one person to start it on their own. Are you bootstrapping this thing?

Bob Wolkoff (44:59)

Yeah, I started this business after it actually started as a side hustle. But during COVID I worked for the Coca Cola company, and during COVID Coca Cola decided To kill off a brand that I was helping manage. And at that point, I decided to take my severance package and inject it 100% in my own business. And first year of sales, this is when I was still running it out of my house. I did over a million dollars in sales.

Guy Raz (45:27)

Wow. And that was purely by doing, like, social media ads and stuff like that.

Bob Wolkoff (45:32)

Yeah, ads. I've never paid for an influencer to speak about our brand. Our customers are our influencers. I've kind of always been an authentic person where I don't want somebody to sell me something because they're being paid to be, you know, out there selling it. So I think what has made us very successful is a lot of, like, moms have power, man. Moms will share with their social media groups. And. And that's kind of how we took off.

Guy Raz (45:58)

That's awesome. And what's your question for us today?

Bob Wolkoff (46:01)

So my question is we're currently at an expansion stage. We've been growing, and we've been so blessed with the growth. However we are looking, I don't know if right now is a good time for us to look for outside investors to bring into the business so that we can say yes to a lot of the things that we have currently been saying no to just because we don't have the staff or we don't have the expertise in those areas.

Guy Raz (46:25)

Got it. Okay, Norma. Wow. Right up your alley. We're talking about an apparel brand here, and Adriana is doing something different. It's lower price point. It's really designed to accentuate curves. She's bootstrapped this thing. You have bootstrapped your business, and now you're 100% owner of it. First of all, questions for Adriana.

Norma Kamali (46:52)

Well, first of all, your website looks fantastic.

Bob Wolkoff (46:56)

Thank you.

Norma Kamali (46:57)

The mom's focus, very specialized. Everything looks great. I love that you have a huge marketplace to reach out to. Nothing better than moms who have had babies. They want to feel good. They always want to work out. They want to feel held in. I commend you for really being very smart about what you decided to put your severance money in, and that was a good idea. I think the next step is usually the tough one because you have to make big decisions. Where are you going to get additional funding? I think there are choices you have, and I think friends and family are always a good step. People that are your customers could also be good investors. I think before you jump into a relationship where they take a part of your business or a percentage of what you're doing. I think you're still identifying who you are and building that. And I think you have a little ways to go as far as investment in fabric and cost of goods. Where do you make the. Where do you make them?

Bob Wolkoff (48:17)

We do make it all overseas. We have five different manufacturer, five different cut and sews, but we do actually have our own. We source our material and then we have our material sent to our cut and sews. Just so that. Because we're very specific on the material we're using.

Norma Kamali (48:33)

And is the distribution other than your website?

Bob Wolkoff (48:37)

No, not at all. We started as really just doing pop up shops and when we pivoted over to online sales, that's when the business and the focus really took us there. So we couldn't pivot back just because we're doing so much online sales.

Norma Kamali (48:52)

Yeah. And what about sales on TikTok or Instagram or.

Bob Wolkoff (48:56)

We do not sell on TikTok. We have an Instagram page, but we do not sell directly on Instagram either.

Norma Kamali (49:02)

I would try it. I would try it. We do very well. I think it's a. A very big opportunity. Learn a little bit more about it because it opens up another. It's like having another store.

Bob Wolkoff (49:17)

I see.

Guy Raz (49:19)

Adriana, are you specifically targeting moms or women who are mom ages?

Bob Wolkoff (49:29)

It is women that are mom ages because we do have a lot of customers that are not moms but are like. We get a lot of college customers.

Guy Raz (49:37)

Too, between like 20 and.

Bob Wolkoff (49:40)

Yes, definitely. I would say it's between 25 and 45. Is our demographic, our sweet spot.

Guy Raz (49:46)

You know, we did an episode on 21 seeds tequila recently and what differentiated that brand was basically it was tequila for moms, you know, or book club. It was. And people were making tequila for frat boys and, you know, men sipping tequila. Nobody was making. I mean, very few people were focusing on moms. And I love this idea because if you look and I just looked at this, if you look at the spending power of women in the United States between 25 and 45, it's like 5 to 15 trillion dollars a year. It's a massive amount of money in terms of what they spend, not obviously on athleisure wear and just everything overall. But it's a huge opportunity. And there's a clear thesis here, which I really love.

Norma Kamali (50:32)

Yeah, it's very impressive. And I think there are a lot of mom bloggers too, that are so good and they really have a great audience and you might want to invite some of them to be a part of your world. You Know, I think doing collaborations now would be a good idea for you. And I think the bloggers are all so good. They tell their stories about being mothers and, and how they feel about their bodies and what's going on in their lives. And I think bringing in that conversation and making your website also a place where people go for information, just to bring populate it more would be, I think, a lot of fun.

Bob Wolkoff (51:20)

I love that idea.

Guy Raz (51:22)

Adriana, what do you. I mean, in terms of raising money, obviously it would enable you to scale, but just roughly, what are you estimating your revenue to be this year?

Bob Wolkoff (51:34)

Our revenue right now we're targeted at being. We're ending the year at $2 million in sales.

Guy Raz (51:39)

Awesome. Amazing.

Bob Wolkoff (51:40)

Yeah. And the key points that we would need the capital for that we haven't done. But we want to go into is wholesale distribution, expanding and creating a petite line and more sizes, like plus sizes.

Guy Raz (51:53)

So there's an argument to be made, right, that having outside capital will help you get there. People are going to give you different advice, right. Some people are going to say, hang on as long as possible because the longer you can hold on and scale it on your own, the greater the value and the more you can retain. That being said, if you can find the right partner who has wholesale apparel experience, maybe it's a factory, maybe they become a co investor. That's where I think it starts to make sense to really explore it. If it's just a money play, if it's just about finding, finding somebody with, you know, extra cash but without the expertise, I would say no way. You know, focus on building the business on your own. But if you can find a really experienced strategic investor who knows how to get in to wholesale, who's done it, then it makes sense to me. And I mean, to me it seems like that's really what you want to look for. And that's not easy. That's going to take some time.

Norma Kamali (52:58)

Yeah. I want to add, be very careful about entering the wholesale distribution network. First of all, one of my questions is costing and making sure that you're meeting your margins because you are selling through your own website. I'm sure you have a cushion there. But once you get into wholesale, there are going to be all kinds of questions. Wanting discounts, wanting all kinds of promotional money. You're in their hands. They are also buying other brands who compete with you and you lose the control you have right now. So I would look at more and more opportunities where you have the control, you have the profit margin, especially if you make A mistake. Especially if something happens with a fabric you bought or something goes wrong, you have a cushion because of the margin. But before you go into wholesale, take a serious. I would be happy to. If you wanted to reach out to me, I'd be happy to walk you through that because it's very different and it doesn't mean you can't do it. It's just being very sure about every expanding out in your world first to take every opportunity. But I love it. I'm really impressed. I really am. I know you're gonna be successful. I'm positive.

Guy Raz (54:39)

Thank you, Adriana. Congrats. Adriana Alvarez. Love her shop. Good luck. We'll be.

Bob Wolkoff (54:44)

Thank you so much.

Norma Kamali (54:45)

Congratulations.

Guy Raz (54:46)

Congrats, Norma. Before I let you go, one last question, which I ask everybody who's come back on as a mentor, which is if you were to travel back in time to the Norma in the 1960s, Norma Kamali in the 1960s, and you could say, Norma, I'm coming from 2024 with a piece of advice, something I want you to know. What's something that you would want her to know about business?

Norma Kamali (55:12)

Well, you know, I have to say I really benefited from my mistakes and learning and getting advice from people who really helped me along the way. And we demonstrated that. You demonstrated. I am so impressed with your advice. And you, of course, are an expert on entrepreneurs. And every bit of advice you gave today, it was stunning. It was amazing. So thank you. You deserve the reputation you have. You earned it. This is such a generous venture for you to take, and I just love you and I'm so proud to know you. You're really an inspiration.

Guy Raz (56:01)

Cry Norma at the same time. Well, you're the best, you know, you're the best. And I hope to come see you New York soon.

Norma Kamali (56:09)

See you soon.

Guy Raz (56:10)

How so? That is the iconic fashion designer Norma Kamali. And by the way, if you haven't heard Norma's original how I built this, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

Norma Kamali (56:28)

Well, I started to make some things and I would put them in the store to see how they would do, and they would do really well. And so the majority of the stock slowly became my designs. And I had a full page in Vogue and I had a good size page in Bazaar, and that was beyond belief because I thought somebody is going to find me out. I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm have a full page in Vogue and Bizarre. This is nuts. Like I don't have a clue.

Guy Raz (57:12)

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-4331 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Carla estevez, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Catherine Seifer, Devin Schwartz, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. If you like How I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey did you know that after World War II the US government secretly brought former Nazi scientists to America in a covert operation to advance military technology? Or that in the 1950s the US army conducted a secret experiment by releasing bacteria over San Francisco to test how a biological attack might spread without alerting the public? These might sound like conspiracy theories, but they're not. They're well documented government actions that were hidden away in classified files for decades. Each week on the new podcast Declassified Mysteries, host Luke Lamanna uncovers shocking truths that powerful forces never wanted you to know. Stories of COVID experiments, secret operations, and unsettling connections that have had lasting impacts on our world. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow redacted Declassified Mysteries with Luke Lamanna on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast for ad free access. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery App or Apple Podcasts. Start your free trial today.