RJ Scaringe (3:16)

You were first on How I Built It. You've been on twice. We were first on the show back in 2022, and if you guys haven't heard that story, we will put a link in the episode description. I really recommend that everyone go and check out this episode if you haven't heard it before or even if you have, because your story, rj, is not. It's not a typical story we talk about On How I Built this because you entered one of the most challenging industries possible, right? It's highly technical, dominated by legacy players. And of course, that's the automotive industry. And it's an electric car company to boot. Of course. Fast forward 2021, the first electric pickup, the R1TS, went public. Now you've got the R1S, which is the SUV. I have one. It is an amazing car. I know I'm not supposed to endorse any products. It is an incredible vehicle. It is so beautifully made and a pleasure to drive. I think by now you've sold over 130,000 vehicles, including the vans that you build. So quite a journey. I mean, even since 2021.

RJ Scaringe (4:15)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's amazing seeing them on the road. And it feels like it was simultaneously just yesterday and also a long while ago. But the first vehicles we started building for consumers, there was a lot of learnings and doing that in the middle of COVID And then with the subsequent supply chain crisis that we had that really kicked off in 2022, you couldn't have imagined a more challenging backdrop to be building the company in. But a lot of those skills we built in terms of managing supply chains being really dynamic around how we think about those supply chains we're now finding are really valuable skills because again, it's a complex environment. As we're about to launch our next product, which is R2, which is a.

RJ Scaringe (4:54)

Much lower priced product, a smaller SUV. And then you're going to launch an R3, which is a sort of a rally car hatchback. Beautiful. Looks like a rally car from the 70s. So cool.

RJ Scaringe (5:06)

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I was joking with somebody. It seems like every time we're launching a new product, some unexpected externality occurs. So in the case of R1, of course, the pandemic and then the supply chain crisis in the case of R2, are now, you know, there's really significant trade tensions that exist across the planet. And in automotive, this is very significant because of how much was built in terms of our supplier base in Canada and Mexico. And so it's a very dynamic environment.

RJ Scaringe (5:34)

Business, as you know very well, is often about uncertainty. We're living in uncertain times. Rj, your cars are entirely made in the us but like most things made in the us, Some of your components are imported. How do you think tariffs are gonna affect the price of your trucks?

RJ Scaringe (5:52)

Well, if we think of the R1 products, they're all built here in the United States. In fact, I'm in the plant right now. They're built in Normal, Illinois, Norma in Illinois. And so, yeah, so we build the vehicles, we make the bodies, we paint the bodies, we assemble the vehicles, we build the motors, the inverters, the battery modules, the battery packs. So we have a very large operation here, around 8,000 people that work out of this site. And we're now getting ready to launch, er, two out of this facility. But when you think about a vehicle and its supply chain, we have hundreds of suppliers per vehicle, but those suppliers have suppliers and those suppliers that supply suppliers have suppliers. So we call that the. Our tier one suppliers supply directly to us. But there's tier two, tier three, Tier four. In some of our systems, it goes back six tiers. So there's six companies behind the component that's coming in. If you include the raw material sourcing. And so the nature of this very complex product, and therefore it's very complex supply chain, means that changes in trade policy and changes in tariffs can be really impactful to the cost to build our vehicles, even with such a US centric business. And so this has obviously grabbed the attention of every automotive company, every automotive CEO, many of whom I've got great relationships with. We're all very quickly trying to rethink and in many cases re rationalize how we design our supply chains. Who are the companies we're working with? Where are the production locations? And I think a lot of times at the headline level, we sort of think of tariffs in the context of like a very simple commerce model. Like the world exists. Trading T shirts and coffee cups.

Guy Raz (7:33)

Yeah.

RJ Scaringe (7:34)

And you know, there are companies that trade T Shirts and coffee cups, and those are perfectly fine businesses. But for something like an automobile or aerospace, it's way more complex. And I'll just use as a simple example lithium ion batteries. So lithium ion batteries, if you're using what's mostly used here in the United States is a nickel chemistry. And we could decide we want to put nickel mines in the United States or nickel processing in the United States, but that it will take many, many years to build that out. And so it's not a question of can we will a nickel mine to suddenly exist in Oklahoma. These things take a lot of time. And that's just one item in our battery supply chain. It's not as simple as if we raise tariffs. More stuff will be, you know, instantly made in the United States.

RJ Scaringe (8:22)

As you say, it would take several years before that capability can be developed in the US So really sort of calls into question some of the challenges that we have set up for ourselves as a country. And some of that came into focus during COVID right when it was clear that even medical equipment and pharmaceuticals are not made and manufactured in the United States. And I understand that. I mean, it makes sense that this will pose an enormous challenge. Challenge is probably an understatement for electric car companies. But I also wonder whether it's sort of a kick in the butt to sort of say, you know, there needs to be a more diversified supply chain for these materials. Because if China, you know, an important and obviously industrial power decides that it, you know, no longer wants to export these products, that's a big problem.

RJ Scaringe (9:11)

Yeah, yeah. You know, you take rare earth minerals and for electric vehicles and magnets, it's a lot more than just electric vehicle magnets. It's medical imaging equipment, it's LEDs, there's a long range wind turbines because they of course have magnets in them as well. There's a lot of products that this will impact. And I've said this for a while and I think a lot have, and we've often talked about it in a more theoretical basis to say the US Needs to bring onshore some of these core technologies, semiconductors, refining of rare earth metals. And I think this is proving the importance of that. But it's going to require policy that supports that. And it's also going to require us to find ways to work with China in the midterm while we're building out those capabilities. That needs to happen. But it'll take. This is not something that's solved overnight. This is going to take many years to redo this all right, let's talk.

RJ Scaringe (10:06)

About some good news for a moment, because this is all, this is all a bit scary. You were a South by Southwest earlier this year and you said something really interesting about competition. Obviously the elephant in the room, so to speak, when we talk about EVs in the US as Tesla, because it's the biggest player. Right. Even though they've had some challenges lately. When you spoke at south by Southwest, you talked about the importance of having more choice for consumers. And you've always been, every time we've had you on the show, you've always been super supportive of Tesla and an admirer of what they do and all electric car manufacturers. But you really want to see an even more competitive EV landscape, which is a bit counterintuitive. Right. Because you're trying to capture market share.

RJ Scaringe (10:49)

Boy, I love this question. There's almost an obsession, I'd say, of trying to find a way to pit different efforts in electrification against one another. And this incorrect view that there's going to be a single winner and for someone to win, everyone else has to lose. And so if we want to see electrification grow from 8% to 100%, customers need lots of choices. And the lack of choice is best demonstrated by Tesla's extreme market share. They have 50ish percent market share because they have two great products. The Model 3 and Model Y are great products, but not everybody wants those form factors that design that look that brand. And so we need to have an equivalent level of diversity of choice that we have on the combustion side. And so of course, we're trying to help with that with R2 and R3, and you can imagine R4, R5 as we continue to build out the portfolio. But for us as an industry, we need Rivian to be successful, Tesla to be successful, GM to be successful, Ford to be successful. For that reason, we were really excited about the partnership we put together with Volkswagen Group.

RJ Scaringe (11:56)

Yeah, you signed a partnership with Volkswagen last, I think, November. And they're going to integrate your technology in their vehicles.

RJ Scaringe (12:02)

Yeah, there's a $5.8 billion software licensing deal, which is awesome, but it allows our software stack and our electronics that we developed in house to be deployed across a wide range of brands, wide range of products. And our hope is to help create more really interesting, highly compelling EVs across brands like Porsche and Audi and of course VW brands within their group, and therefore give customers choice and therefore help drive 8% to 20% and 20% to 50% eventually get to 100%.

RJ Scaringe (12:36)

That's awesome. RJ, let's take some calls. We've got callers here who definitely are interested in hearing your advice. Let's bring on our first caller. Please tell us your name and where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Welcome.

Ashley Vedder (12:49)

Yes, hi, my name is Ashley Vedder and my business is called Vetter's organic ice cream, which is located in San Clemente, California. And it is a gluten free, dairy free, no refined sugar, ice cream sandwiches and pints. And we fund Parkinson's research one scoop at a time.

Guy Raz (13:10)

Wow.

RJ Scaringe (13:10)

Ashley, thanks for calling in. Vetter's ice cream. So you are a basically like paleo friendly ice cream. I guess you don't use refined sugars. Dairy free, gluten free, soy free. So I'm assuming this is like coconut milk you're using and.

Ashley Vedder (13:24)

Yes.

RJ Scaringe (13:25)

And what kind of sweeteners are you using?

Ashley Vedder (13:26)

Dates and organic maple syrup. And we are organically certified as well.

RJ Scaringe (13:32)

You said something which you don't often hear in the same breath as ice cream, but is also funding Parkinson's research. Tell me that part of what you're doing.

Ashley Vedder (13:41)

So my husband was diagnosed with Parkinson's, and while we were on his journey of working with a nutritionist to have a clean gut connecting to a better brain, I did a Whole30 challenge with a group of friends. And two months into eating completely clean, we cheated. Took our three kids, young kids, to frozen yogurt and walked out with bellyaches. And I had an epiphany. And it was, there needs to be a healthy ice cream out there. A place where people can go and enjoy and get ice cream, whether you're fighting cancers, neurological diseases, or just like to be healthy. We have teamed up with the Michael J. Fox Foundation.

RJ Scaringe (14:21)

Awesome.

Ashley Vedder (14:22)

I have raised a total of 650,000 for Team Fox. And their names are on all of our packaging. And here we are. Here's Vetters. And now we're in stores and we have our own shop.

RJ Scaringe (14:37)

Wow. Congrats. How many stores are you in right now?

Ashley Vedder (14:39)

Right now we're in 56 stores, but we got accepted to 50 more. But I don't know how to get there. And even bigger than that, we even got some big guys.

RJ Scaringe (14:50)

And give me a sense of what your revenue is. What were sales last year?

Ashley Vedder (14:53)

Okay, sales last year were almost 500,000.

RJ Scaringe (14:57)

Great. Congrats. That's awesome. And what is your question for us today?

Ashley Vedder (15:01)

If you were me, and I'm just starting to grow and get bigger and more stores are accepting me and more Stores want me and even Costco has my sandwiches right now. They're tasting them, they like them, they'd like for me to do a roadshow. But how do I scale? How do I scale this? What is your advice?

RJ Scaringe (15:21)

Well, first I should say looking at products looks amazing. So I'm plant based and love ice cream, but there's not a lot of great plant based ice cream choices. So I did not know about this until now, so I'll have to check it out. I'm excited. But I mean, I think the really encouraging thing here is you clearly have customers are trying it, loving the product. There's that early product market fit. You have something that's working and people love. Then the question as you think about how and whether you scale is what are you looking for? If you want to scale to be a very large company, have you thought about bringing outside capital or would you prefer to grow this more organically and bootstrap it? And they're very, very different paths.

Ashley Vedder (16:13)

I know, I know. And that's what I'm teetering right now is trying to figure out which way to go. But also how do I even raise capital? How do I even. I mean, I know there's different ways of doing it, but which way would you suggest? Like what would you do if you were me? I do want this to be worldwide. I want everyone to have betters in their hand.

RJ Scaringe (16:36)

Well, if you want to grow into like a global ice cream company, I think you should begin the process of thinking about what an outside investor would look like or group of investors and get really honest with yourself as to the trade off between today, I assume you own 100% of the business. You have. Yes, complete control. There's no outside influences. That's both good and bad. It's good in that you don't have outside influences. It's bad in that some of the discussions and debates and connections I find in growing and building a business really benefit from having investors around the table. These are of course people that are going to be very incentivized for you to be successful. And by definition of being investors and deploying capital in many places have lots of relationships and connections. I asked the question and given the answer, I think my advice to you would be to absolutely pursue finding the right set of investors. And okay, I said it quickly, but the right investors is really important. And one of the things that it took a long time, but I would say we were fortunate in how I built Rivian is we had really aligned investors that allowed us to iterate that allowed us to challenge ourselves. We could have pivots to the strategy, but they believed in and invested in myself as the founder of the company. But also we're patient and we're patient to let us build the brand in the right ways. But not all investors are going to have the same point of view as what you want to build and how you want to build it. So spending the time having those discussions, spending the time meeting with different folks that could become part of your business is really well worth it. And I think you have to have those meetings to get to know the landscape.

RJ Scaringe (18:25)

Yeah. And rj, you had to raise billions of dollars even before you had anything to show for. That's scary. Actually, one of the things that this category, particularly plant based, sugar free hot, really hot right now. Right. Non dairy ice cream. That's a growing category within ice cream. But at the same time, right now where we are and just in the sort of fundraising kind of environment, fundraising for food is hard. We know that. We hear that on the show all the time. And many businesses won't even get serious investors looking at them until they hit $10 million in sales. But doesn't mean that you aren't in a good position, in part because you have a really differentiated product. There aren't many companies out there. There are certainly other non dairy brands, but not that many that are not using cane sugar. Right. That are using maple syrup and date syrup. And those are really interesting, expensive ingredients. So that's one thing you're going for. The other thing is you may want to start right now by looking at your existing network and seeing if you can raise some money that way. The other thing to think about is just talking to as many people as you can. We did an episode on Talenti ice cream and that's an interesting story because the founder, Josh Hochschuler, he was on the ropes. His brand was collapsing, even though he was making a great product. And he was asking anybody he could if they knew anyone who might be interested in working with him. And he was eventually connected to two entrepreneurs who had sold their business that happened to be Belvedere Vodka. And they were interested and they did take a big share of the company, but they helped him scale it into a massive brand that they went on and sold to Unilever. So part of it really, your job is to have conversations with absolutely everybody. You know your network, you start with your family and you ask people who they know and you build and build and build and you have as many conversations as you can and eventually, hopefully, you will find the person or the people who want to take this on.

Ashley Vedder (20:32)

Okay, good idea. Thank you.

RJ Scaringe (20:35)

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And I think the other thing is it's hard to connect the dots looking forward of how all the different relationships you have are going to ultimately enable you to find the right investors. Obviously, looking backwards, you can be like, oh, it went like this, this, and this. So I think having, as Guy said, lots of conversations and being open to meeting new people and to exploring is really, really key.

Ashley Vedder (21:00)

Thank you. Great idea.

RJ Scaringe (21:02)

It's an awesome idea. It's an awesome. It looks like a great product.

Ashley Vedder (21:06)

Thank you.

RJ Scaringe (21:07)

Tell me, how is your husband's name is Justin, I believe. Justin. How is he doing?

Ashley Vedder (21:12)

You know, he is amazing. He's a rock star. He just is so positive. Keeps going every day. He's had the deep brain stimulation surgery done four times. But, you know, he's determined to beat it and to fight it. And so he's boxing. He works out every day. He actually has his own company that he's getting off the ground and wanting to sell in a couple years. So, yeah, he's amazing. And we're a good team. So amazing so far, we're staying positive. Yes.

RJ Scaringe (21:46)

Awesome. Congrats on that. Thank you.

Ashley Vedder (21:48)

Thank you. Thank you.

RJ Scaringe (21:50)

Yeah, thanks so much for calling in. That's Vedder's organic ice cream. Ashley Vetter from San Clemente, California, thanks so much for calling.

Ashley Vedder (21:57)

Thank you so much for having me.

RJ Scaringe (21:59)

Great to meet you.

Ashley Vedder (22:00)

Thank you.

RJ Scaringe (22:00)

Bye.

Ashley Vedder (22:00)

Bye.

Guy Raz (22:02)

We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. I've stayed at some amazing Airbnbs, someone's cabin in the middle of a vineyard in California, in a 17th century stone barn on an olive farm in Tuscany, and in an apartment in Paris where I watched people dance in the streets below. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host Shopify is the Commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Tackle all the important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. And if you're looking to grow your business internationally, shopify has global selling tools to help you in over 150 countries in person. More your thing Shopify's award winning point of Sale connects your online and offline sales all in one place. With 99.99% uptime and the best converting checkout on the planet, you'll never miss a sale again. Only with Shopify. Get all the big stuff for your small business right with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com built go to shopify.com built shopify.com built at how I Built this we meet the people behind the businesses we admire and hear firsthand how they got where they are today. Because every small choice, connection and transaction can mean much more. Our sponsor Mercury, understands just that that it's more than a deposit into your bank account. It's landing your first fundraise. It's more than an invoice to a customer. It's your hard work becoming revenue. It's more than a wire. It's payroll for your crew. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more than hold money, so businesses of all stages and industries can do more. Businesses like Alma, a legal tech startup, use Mercury to simplify their financial work. Co founder Aizah Murat, a Kyrgyzstan born and Harvard educated attorney, founded Alma after receiving dubious immigration advice that put the brakes on her career. Now her team streamlines immigration for skilled professionals while empowering businesses to recruit and scale seamlessly with global talent. They use Mercury to create and send invoices right from their bank account or Bogey Bros. The E commerce apparel brand for the golfer who doesn't take themselves too seriously. While Bogeybros are known for their sense of humor, co founder Ryan Rizzos doesn't joke about the company's finances. He chose Mercury to set up multiple checking accounts to implement the profit first method of accounting from day one and now uses Mercury's working capital as a cushion for big inventory purchases ahead of sales. Like Black Friday and Throne, who built a first of its kind device that monitors your gut health from your toilet. Co founder Scott Hickel raised two rounds of funding to bring Throne's vision to life. Now by investing their capital with Mercury Treasury, Scott can then invest more into engineering to get Throne just right. Visit mercury.com to see how Mercury brings together all the ways you use money into a single product. That feels extraordinary to use Mercury Banking that does more Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group, Column NA and Evolve bank and TR members. FDIC Mercury treasury is offered by Mercury Advisory llc, an SEC registered investment advisor and wholly owned subsidiary of Mercury Technologies. Important information and disclosures@mercury.com Treasury welcome back.

RJ Scaringe (26:12)

To the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Rivian founder and CEO RJ Scaringe. Rj, are you ready? Take another call. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice line. You're on with RJ Scaringe, founder of Rivian. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (26:31)

Hello Guy and rj so glad to be on with you guys. Thank you so much.

RJ Scaringe (26:36)

Welcome.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (26:37)

My name is Kweijo and my last name is Soan Pimpong. I'm the founder of Crafted Glory and Crafted Glory is a handmade furniture brand that crafts heirloom quality hardwood furniture that blends African artistry with Scandinavian design.

RJ Scaringe (26:55)

I love it. Welcome to the show, Kweijo. So you are based in North Carolina?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (26:59)

Yes, I'm based in Asheville, North Carolina.

RJ Scaringe (27:02)

Which is a sort of traditionally a furniture manufacturing region, North Carolina and still a lot of furniture is made there. I'm looking at images of your work and it's so cool because the idea of African artistry and Scandinavian design, it seems like hard to imagine, but when you look at it, it makes perfect sense. You're like, oh my God, that's exactly what it is. How did this business start? Tell me a little bit about it.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (27:26)

Oh yeah. Well, when I moved to Asheville and moved into my home, I didn't have any furniture. I was a bachelor recently out of college, no furniture. And I started looking around for pieces that were interesting but couldn't find what I really wanted. So one day I decided to try my hand at making some end tables. And they were crude but I fell in love with the process. So over the course of many months and weeks, I built out my 300 square foot garage, started making pieces, eventually made some jewelry that I listed on Etsy and that started my Etsy journey. Over time, people started requesting larger and larger pieces and and that brings me to today where we make large coffee tables, dining tables and ship them all over the country.

RJ Scaringe (28:16)

Wow, that's amazing. So this is your now what you do full time?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (28:21)

No. And that's probably the reason why I having the conversation with you guys. I have been working a full time corporate job since 2012. I'm a fabrication supervisor at a manufacturing company and I all the while I've Been working on building my brand. So I've been juggling both for the past about eight years.

RJ Scaringe (28:43)

Is your background in engineering by any chance?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (28:46)

Yes, I went to Carnegie Mellon University for a bachelor's in mechanical and master's in civil and environmental engineering.

RJ Scaringe (28:55)

Wow. Right up your alley. Rj, Another engineer on a show.

Guy Raz (28:59)

This stuff is amazing.

RJ Scaringe (29:00)

So you're doing. You're making furniture. Presumably you are the one making it. And then you're also going to this other job as a supervisor.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (29:09)

Yes.

RJ Scaringe (29:10)

So tell me what your day is like. What's a typical day for you?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (29:13)

A typical day starts pretty early, about 9am I'm in my studio and work for generally about four hours each day and then come home, shower real quick and head to work. I work second shift and get off at 2am and the cycle continues.

Guy Raz (29:30)

When do you sleep?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (29:32)

Not much.

RJ Scaringe (29:34)

My God. Okay to dig in there. What's your question for us?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (29:38)

Yeah, so my question relates to actually balancing both. My desire is to build a legacy brand that will endure for many years and make a big impact in the community, in the world, and for my family. And I'm just at that place where revenue is not quite enough for me to do it full time. And I need to do it full time in order to get the revenue to where it needs to be to support me and my family and make the impact I want. So, looking for any suggestions on how I can position my brand to get to that point?

RJ Scaringe (30:14)

How you can essentially leave your job and do that full time. Rj, that's a. That's a lot of pressure.

RJ Scaringe (30:24)

Are you demand constrained or supply constrained? If you had more time, you could conceivably generate more revenue. So is there enough demand that you'd be comfortable leaving your job?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (30:34)

Not right now. Because essentially what we've been able to make in revenue without much investment in marketing at all. But we've proven that people want our products and love what we do, and we're on the high end. So really it's just a matter of getting in front of our ideal clients and spending the time on the marketing side of things, which is where I'm struggling with time.

RJ Scaringe (31:01)

Kweijude, can you give us a sense of what you make in sales a year right now?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (31:05)

Yeah, we are bringing in about 180,000 per year.

RJ Scaringe (31:10)

Right. And given your background as a mechanical engineer, I mean, your value is very high at a company. So I imagine that what you're paid is significantly more than what you bring in. Profit. After all is said and done, the things that I keep thinking about, we did an episode many years ago with Jim Cook. He's been on the show a few times. The founder of Boston Beer Company and he has this sort of very, I think, important idea about how to live your life. And he says, if you're going to take the leap, you want to think about whether it's dangerous or scary. And a lot of things like leaving your job are scary. But the question is, is it dangerous? Right. Is it more dangerous to remain in your job and then wake up at 60, 70 or 65 years old and say, I wasted my life. I didn't plan, pursue this thing that I really wanted to pursue? And the answer is it sometimes can be more dangerous. On the flip side, if you listen to that episode, Jim kept his day job for a long time. He worked at Boston Consulting Group and at nights and on weekends, he really learned how to make beer. He looked at beer bottling plants. He really kind of did his market analysis and research for at least a year before he was ready to go. You've been doing this, as you said, for about nine years now, I think. And so it is a significant risk, right? If you were to completely walk away from your job, I imagined, would you have, for example, health insurance? Would there be another source of health insurance?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (32:36)

I would have to find another source for that. That's right.

RJ Scaringe (32:41)

So I mean, one of the things you could do is save like crazy and take the leap and know that if it didn't work out, you're eminently hirable because of your background as a mechanical engineer. At the same time, you have seniority probably and you know, you will probably continue to climb up the ranks and at some point maybe recruited by another company and earn more money. So it is, there's a risk here, right? Because I think your business is based on your designs and your work. Right. Is there a way you can scale what you're doing?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (33:17)

Yeah, well, yes, it is based on my designs. But we do get clients who ask us to make their designs and they'll come to us with drawings or specs and we'll do that as well. As far as scaling, right now, we're a small batch company and we pride ourselves in being able to invest the time into making quality pieces with a very close relationship with our clients. So I don't know how far I want to go with scaling it, but definitely to a point where I'm not hands on with every single detail with the business. I'd like to get to a point where I have a team that can create my designs as one part of the business. And the other part is I'm focused on the very high end pieces, like art pieces, collector pieces. So very high end clients will come and say, oh, this is a piece made by Kweijo himself. And then the other part of the business is running. We're making our standard pieces for clients.

RJ Scaringe (34:20)

You know, in starting a business, there's so many unknowns. And I look back now, I was just talking to somebody on the team the other day about it. They're asking me, what was it like in the beginning it was just you. And I was like, you know, I didn't really. I didn't focus a lot on how it was going to fail, which sounds crazy, but I thought about how I could make it work. But there are so many ways. Like an infinite number of ways one can imagine the business not working. But once I made the decision I was going to go build it, then every day, whether the barrier was large or small, it was just, how do we make progress? And so I think the question I'd ask here is just, are you ready for that? Leaned in commitment. There are going to be days you're like, oh, shit. Like, this isn't going as I hoped. But you're very employable. We have lots of openings here at Rivian. So, I mean, you're very employable. And you're at a point in life where it sounds like you can take this jump. You're already working around the clock. You're up in the morning, right away working. And you're working till you said 2am so you clearly have the stamina to work really hard at something. So, I mean, I'm biased, but I would ask you, why not?

RJ Scaringe (35:43)

I'm going to disagree here, rj. I think you got to be a little more cautious. Kweijo, how many kids do you have?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (35:49)

We have a six month old.

RJ Scaringe (35:51)

Okay. Is it possible we might be able to split the difference here? Is there a world where your company, where you currently work, would be willing to give you a leave of absence? Like a six month leave of absence?

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (36:05)

You know, I haven't explored that. My role is more hands on. I directly manage my team. So not too sure if that's possible, but definitely something worth considering. But you know, I've realized that the value that I've gained in actually doing both, even though I really desire to be able to cut ties and focus on crafted glory, and I think craft glory really needs that from me. But at the same time, being in another manufacturing environment, I've gotten to really sharpen my skills of standardizing processes, manufacturing processes. All of that carries over into what I do. And so I'm very grateful for that. But also realize that I want Crafted Glory to be a legacy brand. And I can't really do that part time, I think. But, you know, by the grace of God, I've gotten this far, and I'm hopeful that it's going to go much, much farther.

RJ Scaringe (37:05)

So take Guy's point. And with a six month old, I can appreciate that starting Rivky and I have kids, it's a lot easier sleeping on couches and things like that. But have you thought about if you lined up like a significant customer or enough revenue where let's say you had a year of Runway of revenue and work that you could then look at that as the line through which you'd have to get through. So, you know, okay, I'm going to go build enough relationships with enough design firms that locks up business for 12 months and then gives you the comfort to make the leap.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (37:40)

Yes, yes. That's actually something my wife and I have talked about frequently. And we've taken some steps in that direction, One of which is we're actually going to be at ICFF next month. International Contemporary Furniture Fair.

RJ Scaringe (37:52)

Oh, nice. Yeah.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (37:53)

And we're really hopeful that some good partnerships will come through that. And actually this year we've applied to many grants and we've received many of them. And that is just helping to build that Runway.

RJ Scaringe (38:08)

As you said, that makes a lot of sense. And if there was a way to have some kind of contract with somebody that really gives you this year long Runway, then in that case, I would say, yes, take the leap for sure. And it may be that in the meantime, you may want to pause building furniture for a few months and try and focus on seeing if you can develop a partnership. And maybe the trade show is where you find that partner.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (38:33)

Yeah, that's really great advice.

RJ Scaringe (38:35)

Yeah, you said something a guy, which I'd just double down on. So I started a car company. I love to work on cars. One of my early learnings was in the beginning, I spent a lot of time designing parts. It feels really good because it's the thing you enjoy and it's maybe the thing that initially drew you to start the business. But I realized after a couple of months, I was like, well, the company will never scale if I'm sitting at a laptop designing parts all day. I quickly realized that so important for the company to be successful, I had to go focus on other Things which were building relationships and bringing investors. And I think there's a really similar dynamic here where as much as you love being in the shop every day, probably the best thing you can do is to go build a really large book of business so you can have the comfort to scale the business as.

RJ Scaringe (39:30)

You'Ve talked about here and bring other people in to do it. Because, rj, your dream was to build a car company. And probably in your dreams, the idea was you would be sitting at the drafting table and you'd be designing the car, but you can't do it even though you know how to do it it and you've got the background.

RJ Scaringe (39:44)

40,000 years. Yeah, yeah, it'd take a little while.

RJ Scaringe (39:47)

Just like I can't edit this, I know how to do the editing of the show, but I can't do it. First of all, my producers are much better than me, but I cannot do it physically do it. So it makes a lot of sense at some point, Kweijo, that you're gonna want to focus on the business side and still oversee the design, but you're gonna want other people working for you.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (40:05)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we've gotten a taste of that. We have one part time employee and I see just with him the value in being able to step back, assign work to him, and then I can do other things. So that makes a lot of sense. And I appreciate that advice.

RJ Scaringe (40:23)

Kweijo. Sam Pimpang. The company's called Crafted Glory and mainly I think you sell on Etsy and you've got a website. Congrats. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (40:31)

Thank you so much.

RJ Scaringe (40:32)

Good luck.

Kweijo Soan Pimpong (40:33)

Thank you.

RJ Scaringe (40:34)

Wow. Some really cool stuff. You know, cool stuff. And I think it is true, like, rj, you are an engineer. This is what you like spent your whole life training for. And at the end of the day, you can't really be in the weeds on the engineering side or the design side. You just can't.

RJ Scaringe (40:52)

Yeah. One of the things in growing and building a business, you have to really recognize what are the things that you can uniquely do for the business that others can't, especially as a founder, as a CEO. And then the things that others can do really well, you shouldn't be doing them. And also things that you may really enjoy but others can do well. Maybe you let yourself have it every now and then as like a dessert. But thinking very honestly around where you spend your time is important.

Guy Raz (41:17)

All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one More caller, stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice line right here on how I built this lab. Working with millions of businesses over the years, Stripe understands the challenges companies face when trying to launch new products with inflexible billing Systems. In fact, 38% of business leaders say they've lost customers because their billing system was too rigid to accommodate new pricing models. Think about the evolving landscape. For AI companies, their success success hinges on the ability to adapt to changing market demands. Billing system limitations shouldn't cost you revenue. Join the 300,000 businesses that are getting unblocked with Stripe Billing. Now you can bill and manage customers however you want and create pricing models as sophisticated as your ideas. Collect and retain more revenue, automate revenue management workflows and accept payments globally. Power any business model with Stripe Billing. Learn more at stripe.com billing@schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own. Plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

RJ Scaringe (43:18)

Welcome back to the Advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with RJ Scaringe. RJ let's get back into it and take another call.

RJ Scaringe (43:28)

Sure.

RJ Scaringe (43:28)

Hello, welcome to the Advice line. You are on with RJ Scringe, founder of Rivian. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

Robert Button (43:37)

Hi, my name is Robert Button. I'm calling from Vancouver, Canada and my business is Zoa Engineering. So at Zoa Engineering, we design and build products that help people move through the badcountry. And our flagship product is the PL1. It's the portable rope tow system. So it's like a ski lift that fits in your backpack.

RJ Scaringe (43:57)

I have so many questions for Rob. Welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. I think you have landed on the perfect advisor here because Rob, you must be an engineer first of all.

Robert Button (44:07)

Yeah, yeah, I'm a mechanical engineer as well.

RJ Scaringe (44:09)

Mechanical engineer by training. Okay, so let's dig into this. You have built a product, from what I understand, that allows you to ski and then tow yourself back back up. Explain how, how does it work?

Robert Button (44:21)

It's really designed for backcountry skiing. So the way it works is when you're back country skiing. Normally you're using skins to climb back first, right? Yeah. So it's obviously a lot of work, but in this case, you still have to climb the first time. But when you get to the top of your run, you can set an anchor that either the tree or we provide a snow anchor, and you lay out your line along your run.

RJ Scaringe (44:43)

You lay it out along the run, okay.

Robert Button (44:45)

Yeah. We use a rope bag, so you kind of ski down with the rope bag the first time. And when you get to the bottom, you leave that loose on the bottom, and the device attaches to the rope. You pull throttle, and it pulls you.

RJ Scaringe (44:56)

Up, so it tows you back up. So how long is the rope?

Robert Button (44:59)

So with the standard package, we provide like a thousand feet, but you can link up multiple lines if you just want to have a longer run.

RJ Scaringe (45:06)

So basically, for people who do backcountry skiing, you ski, but then you got to hike back up this way. This allows you to basically ski 1,000ft and get towed back up.

Robert Button (45:16)

Yeah, it's basically like a self tailing winch is what you call it.

RJ Scaringe (45:20)

How did this start? Tell me how this whole thing started.

Robert Button (45:23)

I think that it's ultimately something that a lot of backcountry skiers, or a lot of skiers in general, kind of think how great it would be to have your own lift, have your own private mountain. And I think that's kind of the route for this. I was kind of fortunate enough to have some familiarity with precious motors and controllers and the technology behind it, and was able to kind of work it out and realize that this is a feasible thing to do and kind of went from there.

RJ Scaringe (45:49)

I mean, it's super cool. Rob, what's the question you brought for us?

Robert Button (45:55)

Yeah, so our product is obviously quite unique. We're kind of the only ones on the market with this, and we have a lot of excitement about it, but not that many people that are really willing to commit to it just yet. And so my question is, how do we go from early adopters to a more mainstream audience for our customer base?

RJ Scaringe (46:14)

All right, fair enough, rj. We can answer the question eventually. But do you have any questions for Rob first?

RJ Scaringe (46:20)

I guess, just as context. I love to ski, and just a few years ago, I started trying backcountry skiing, which is wonderfully fun, but as you said, you can only do so many runs. I guess it's a stamina question with how much you can skin up and down. So I understand the product concept, thinking about it in terms of Product market scale. It takes a part of a sport. So it takes skiing and backcountry skiing. So it's a niche sport within skiing. And then it takes that even further down to say someone just wants to do multiple runs. My first question would be, are there ways to broaden the portfolio to have other offerings that could appeal to someone who's maybe not backcountry skiing? Other like ancillary products you could add to it? Or if you're only selling to folks who are backcountry skiing, are there other ways to create more attachment for other things into your portfolio?

Robert Button (47:14)

Yeah, I guess. To start, I will say I think the market for like backcountry skiing is growing, often underestimated.

RJ Scaringe (47:21)

A lot of our customers backcountry ski, by the way, they'll take their rivian and then they'll go from there.

Robert Button (47:27)

Yeah, and you do see a number of viable companies that, that are really focused on backcountry skiing products. But in our case, there are alternative markets for us, especially for us, where, you know, we already have customers who are not necessarily backcounty skiers, but will have a property that they want to set up with the lift. And this is like sort of a very low cost way to have your own lift. And we also have a lot of interest, but we haven't really broken into a number of kind of business oriented or government oriented applications. So like ski patrol has a lot of uses for this as well as search and rescue and in the military. So we do have like a number of alternative markets with just this product.

RJ Scaringe (48:10)

Have you thought about so skiing? And I think you're right, the backcountry is probably under accounted for. It's an awesome sport. How do you think about your company from a brand point of view? Do you think of it as a backcountry skiing branded company or do you think.

RJ Scaringe (48:23)

Yeah, or as a towing company?

RJ Scaringe (48:26)

Yeah, if it's a towing company. There's a really broad set of applications from like hunting to logging to pulling jet skis up on the beach to.

Robert Button (48:35)

Yeah, our mission statement right now is that we build products that help people move through the backcountry. So our focus is, you know, portable applications where we can move people through mountains effectively. And I think that's a lot broader than just skiing. And you know, that can also encompass downhill skiing without the backcountry element, as well as a whole host of other applications, including stuff like hunting and where we get tons of people who ask, can I haul a buck through?

RJ Scaringe (49:01)

Oh yeah, that's interesting.

RJ Scaringe (49:02)

Yeah, so, yeah, that's what I was thinking of.

Robert Button (49:03)

Yeah, the, the general outdoor world, but as, like, as a tool that can be used in the outdoors and is highly portable. That's kind of what we're, we're looking at.

RJ Scaringe (49:12)

Rob, a couple quick questions. Tell me a little bit about your revenue. What do you expect to do this year? Or maybe what did you do last year? Year.

Robert Button (49:19)

So this year we're expecting about 200 grand in revenue, so we're still quite small.

RJ Scaringe (49:24)

And how much does the product cost?

Robert Button (49:27)

So it's 1700 US dollars for the complete package that includes the rope and everything you need.

RJ Scaringe (49:32)

So it's, it's expensive. But a lot of people doing backcountry skiing are paying a lot of money anyway, you know, one of these caterpillars to take them up or something, or some people do helicopters. And it's an investment. You make the investment and then you can do it. One of the things that I'm curious about, because you asked, how do you get more people to sort of try this out or to be aware of it? I mean, there are a number of ways. I was looking at your Instagram and you have about 20,000 followers on there, which is a great start. And I know you're putting videos out there, but really, I mean, I wonder whether you have tried out, for example, like pop ups where people can try it for free at resorts. Right. Have you tried going to resorts and offering people an opportunity to just try it? Or maybe working with ski rental shops to see if people wanted to just rent it for an afternoon?

Robert Button (50:21)

It's still something we're kind of working on, logistics wise, for our product. I think a lot of the resorts are still a little hesitant to let us use it on resort, but what we've done is a lot more impromptu kind of stuff. Just last week, if we run across people while we're skiing, we'll let them try out the product. But it's definitely a plan in the future to get more people to try it out because we do get great reactions whenever anyone gets to use it.

RJ Scaringe (50:47)

Rj, I know that you did not have to use celebrities necessarily to sell Rivians, but I did notice during the Olympics last year, Martha Stewart was like on NBC talking about how she was so excited to get her Rivian. Like she's waiting for a Rivian to come, which is, you know, I mean, she just did that. She just said that. Right. Which is a big deal because she's a tastemaker. And I don't Think you guys use celebrity endorsements. But. But, Rob, I wonder whether. I mean, in your case, you know, there are, There have to be famous backcountry skiers out there. Have you tried reaching out to some of them?

Robert Button (51:17)

Yeah, we've just. We're just dipping our toes in that right now. And it's something we are really hoping to kind of launch into more next season. But I think from my perspective, it's part of this is about building trust in the product and showing that it's the real deal. So, yeah, it's a big part of our strategy going forward.

RJ Scaringe (51:37)

Yeah, I think that the idea of getting exposure to it. This is a product that it so naturally links to exposure because the people using it want to take photographs of using it and say, hey, Instead of doing 4,000ft of elevation, I did 25,000ft and I only had to do four of it on my own kind of thing. So I think there's a real opportunity to tell those stories and find some people that get excited about it.

RJ Scaringe (52:02)

I agree. I agree with that. Rj, we did an episode on Whoop, the Whoop Band Band that tracks all these things in your body. And the guy who founded it, Willamed. It's amazing how he launched this thing. He got it on the wrist of Michael Phelps and LeBron James without ever paying them. In fact, LeBron James and Michael Phelps paid him to use it. They paid for a subscription. And the way he did it was by going to their trainers. It's hard to get something on Michael Phelps' or LeBron James wrist. But if you can get to their trainer and the trainer's using it, he's the one who's going to say, hey, you really need to use this thing. And I wonder whether you can get this in the hands of ski instructors or race team coaches, as you mentioned, ski patrol. Also people who are guides. I mean, everybody I know who does backcountry skiing almost always goes with a guide.

RJ Scaringe (52:56)

Yep.

Robert Button (52:56)

Yeah, that's great. All great options, and I think something we'll have to push for going forward.

RJ Scaringe (53:03)

Rj, any last minute thoughts for Rob on how he could get this out into the world?

RJ Scaringe (53:10)

I mean, a lot of the things we said here, which I'm sure you've thought about some as well, Rob. But I do think one of the things I spend some time reflecting hard on is what's the vision for the business and what are the details you're willing to be flexible on and what are the things that you really are fixed on and the reason I raised that is the technology and the product you're developing have lots of other applications as we quickly brainstormed here. And they're creating a few different surfaces through which you could be successful may be really helpful. But again, you have to really reflect to say does that fit the overall vision? And I think this idea of movement in the backcountry fits really nicely.

RJ Scaringe (53:53)

Yes.

RJ Scaringe (53:55)

Is it broadens it and suddenly you have appeal across a few different things. And then the question is just how much effort you put into some of those different applications of your product. Technology.

RJ Scaringe (54:08)

The company's called Zoa Engineering and wow, what a cool product. The PL one. Your own personal ski lift. Rob Button, congrats. Thanks for calling in.

Robert Button (54:16)

Thanks so much for having me.

RJ Scaringe (54:17)

Yeah, great to meet you. Rob. Do you backcountry ski as well?

RJ Scaringe (54:21)

I'm too nervous. I'm very cautious. I love skiing. I'm a very cautious skier. I ski everything but very cautiously. Once you hit 50, you don't want to fall and break something because then.

Guy Raz (54:31)

You'Re at a commission.

RJ Scaringe (54:32)

My wife tore her ACL last time we went skiing, so she's at a commission for a year. So there you go. Rj, before we let you go, I want to ask you one final question, which is if you were able to go back and give your younger self some advice or sort of an observation or encouragement, what might you say now? What do you know now that would have been helpful or encouraging back then?

RJ Scaringe (54:55)

Well, there's so many things I'd say. There's two things I'd focus on, and there are things I would have probably said then, but maybe a little less emphatically. One is make sure you have the right people around you. And it sounds so obvious, and it's an answer you'd see in any question on how to build a business. But. But it's even more important than it even says in all the business books. It's so critical in terms of your energy, in terms of how you find yourself being inspired, challenging the people that are challenging you. So I think that's really important. And for me, as a first time founder and also as somebody who's learning how to run a business, knowing when to break those relationships to say, hey, look, this isn't going to work. We need to bring somebody else in for this role. That took some time for me to develop and now it's so understood. But in the early days it wasn't as immediately obvious that sometimes I held onto relationships longer than I should have. That'd be the first thing, and then the second thing, being able in the early stages of business, the flexibility that you have to adjust the strategy is such a strength. And it's actually big companies don't have this flexibility. And I think in the beginning, maybe you hold onto an idea as precious and want to protect it because so many people are telling you that your idea or your business isn't going to work, that it's like fight or flight, you decide, I'm going to fight to preserve the idea. But I think certainly in Rivian's case, a lot of the specifics of what we thought we were going to do in the beginning weren't the right answer. And once we started to really realize that and have comfort in the strength of being able to adjust our plans, not to say through our vision or our mission out the window, but to say we can be, you know, we can be flexible on the tactics, it really changed. And then also, what are the things we're not going to be flexible on? Like, for us, it was certain aspects of vertically integrating to our technology stack. But like, if I was making what we first thought we were going to make, the company wouldn't be here. And so, you know, it's interesting just having these discussions today because I do think for every founder, it's a really important question, what are the things that really do matter? And then if those other things can be flexible, like have the fluidity of thinking around, should they change? Should you approach it differently?

RJ Scaringe (57:13)

Rj, thanks so much.

RJ Scaringe (57:15)

Yeah, this is great. Good to see you, guy.

RJ Scaringe (57:17)

That's rivian founder and CEO RJ Scaring. And by the way, if you haven't heard RJ's original how I Built this episode, you've got to go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

RJ Scaringe (57:30)

One of the things that is interesting with electrification is it completely changes performance boundaries that we previously accepted. So our pickup, I was on the pch, the Pacific coast highway in California. This is maybe three, four weeks ago. I pulled up to a light, it was early morning, and a brand new Ferrari pulled up right next to me. And the guy looks over at me, I look over at him and said, hey, you want to see what we can do here? And so we both accelerate quickly off the line and I out accelerate him by quite a margin. And we get to the next light and he says to me, I can't believe my Ferrari just got roasted by a pickup.

Guy Raz (58:08)

Hey, thanks so much for listening to.

RJ Scaringe (58:09)

The show this week.

Guy Raz (58:10)

And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you're working on a Cat a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Iman Maani with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Messini, Katherine Cipher, Terry Thompson, Sam Paulson, J.C. howard, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab.

RJ Scaringe (59:17)

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RJ Scaringe (59:29)

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Guy Raz (59:31)

By filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.