Advice Line with Ronnen Harary of Spin Master/PAW Patrol

Summary

Podcast Summary
How I Built This with Guy Raz – “Advice Line with Ronnen Harary of Spin Master / PAW Patrol”
Release Date: July 2, 2026
Host: Guy Raz | Guest: Ronnen Harary (Co-founder, Spin Master)

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Episode Overview

This episode of “How I Built This: Advice Line” features a Q&A format in which host Guy Raz is joined by legendary entrepreneur Ronnen Harary, co-founder of Spin Master—the company behind PAW Patrol, Air Hogs, Bakugan, and the Rubik’s Cube. Ronnen and Guy field calls from founders and business owners facing real business challenges. Over the course of three candid conversations, Ronnen shares advice on scaling legacy brands, navigating the impact of commodity price surges, and maintaining a healthy separation between entrepreneurial life and personal identity.

Main Themes:

• The iterative nature of innovation in both startups and legacy brands
• Adapting product, pricing, and marketing strategies under challenging market conditions
• Personal resilience and setting boundaries as a founder

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1. Spin Master Update & Entrepreneurial Lessons

[04:13 – 09:14]

Key Points:

• Ronnen’s current role: Stepped down from co-CEO, now Chairman, focusing on special projects (including building an AI studio).
• New Book: “No Experience Necessary: Why Betting on Yourself in Your 20s is the Best Decision You'll Ever Make” – practical manifesto for young entrepreneurs about risk, learning, and the hidden advantages of youth in entrepreneurship.

Notable Quotes:

• “It’s one thing to write a book. It’s another thing to like, sell a book. It’s like starting a business. So I almost feel like I’m back in startup mode again.” – Ronnen Harary [04:47]
• “You can learn new things very quickly...so there are massive advantages to being young and starting something young.” – Guy Raz [05:59]

On Innovation vs. Acquisition:

• Spin Master balances “at least a 50/50” between acquiring established brands (Melissa & Doug, Etch A Sketch, Rubik’s Cube) and innovating internally.
• Recent years required a re-commitment to innovation and agility: “We probably over-rotated...became too rigid...now we've leaned heavily back into innovation ideation.” – Ronnen [08:12]

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2. Caller 1: Ann Williams, Yearly Company (Fine Jewelry – Gold Bangles)

[09:48 – 19:16]

Background:

• Ann founded Yearly Company in 2016, inspired by a family tradition of gifting gold bangles. Grown to $11M in annual sales, mostly DTC online.
• Challenge: Gold prices have surged; how to adapt product/pricing/marketing without alienating loyal customers or compromising on product integrity?

Discussion & Advice:

• Ann emphasizes that pure 14k gold is central to the brand, but is struggling with price increases and potential loss of mid-tier customers ($300-$500 range).
• Ronnen explores:
  • Margins, geography, and mix (online vs. retail).
  • Exploration of other materials since the brand’s name doesn’t limit it to gold.

Key Advice:

• Diversify product lines into new, lower-cost materials (silver, for example), especially if “Yearly Company” brand doesn’t tie you to gold exclusively.
• Use price surges as an opportunity: “Turn lemons into lemonade...bring forth a brand new product line that’s different, that can expand your revenue base.” – Ronnen [18:33]

Notable Quotes:

• “Your name doesn’t have the word gold in your brand. So I think you have the permission from your consumer base to do other things...” – Ronnen Harary [16:37]
• “We really focus on that wearability factor. We want those special pieces to kind of become a part of everyday life.” – Ann Williams [10:26]

Action Points:

• Consider silver or alternative metals as complementary products
• Expand beyond gold to milestone-driven gifts (e.g., baby cups, frames) that uphold the brand’s core message of meaningful tradition

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3. Caller 2: Felix Colin, Island Bee Company (Family Apiary & Skincare, Martha’s Vineyard)

[23:40 – 33:56]

Background:

• Family business since 1999, now run by three generations. Key products: raw honey (limited scalability) and “Hive Five” moisturizer (proprietary, with five ingredients from the hive).
• Business has mostly been local and small-scale (farmers markets, $150-200k annual revenue), but Felix wants to scale.

Challenge:

• Should the business scale through B2B channels (corporate gifting, weddings) or direct-to-consumer/digital (e.g., TikTok Shop, social)?

Discussion & Advice:

Guy Raz’s View:

• Build B2B channels and local partnerships first; leverage the Martha’s Vineyard story and cachet (luxury hotels, weddings) before tackling the volatility of viral social media.
  • “If something hits on Instagram that can create operational chaos...” [28:48]

Ronnen Harary’s View:

• Push for both: build consistent social storytelling and digital presence while thoughtfully expanding retail/distributor relationships.
• Urges Felix to define his ambition—whether $5M, or $50M+ will determine the scaling path.
• Skeptical of one-off corporate gifting: “I’m not a big fan of the whole corporate gifting...it’s transactional.” [30:34]
• Encourages “chunk by chunk” scaling and consistent content marketing.

Key Quotes:

• “If you want to build a $5 million business, then you can take Guy’s path. But if you want to build a business that’s $20, $30, $50 million...I think you got to take a different path.” – Ronnen Harary [31:00]
• “It gives me a lot to think about and consider.” – Felix Colin [33:46]

Action Points:

• Start with trade shows, local B2B partnerships, and parallel social media efforts
• Clarify long-term vision; scale at a pace the family can sustain

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4. Caller 3: Matt Smith, Wandering Soul Beer & Hidden Path Brew (Craft Beer/NA)

[36:49 – 46:40]

Background:

• Matt lost his daughter, Melody, and started Wandering Soul Beer as a personal project to create a positive legacy. Operates as a “gypsy brewer,” no taproom; sells via stores/restaurants in several states.
• Major growth during COVID; now facing founder fatigue, questioning how to maintain business identity without being consumed by it.

Challenge:

• How to create a boundary between the mission-driven business (rooted in grief/legacy) and his personal life? How to avoid total emotional enmeshment?

Advice from Ronnen:

• Compartmentalize: Work outside the home, ideally in a shared or co-working space.
• Avoid discussing business with friends/family—“just a strict rule.”
• Structure your day to enable focus at work and decompression at home.

Advice from Guy:

• Build in non-negotiable personal rituals (morning walks, music sessions, regular friend gatherings) to reclaim identity and spark creativity.
• “It actually makes you better at what you do, I find.” – Guy Raz [44:25]

Notable Quotes:

• “Don’t take everything so seriously. Enjoy the journey, enjoy the moments. It goes fast and you really want to be in it...” – Ronnen Harary [47:07]

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5. Closing Reflections & Takeaways

[46:42 – 48:55]

• Ronnen's advice to his younger self (and to the audience): prioritize enjoying the entrepreneurial journey over chasing relentless growth.
• Memorable, lighthearted testimonial: “This has been just great advice from you guys. It's bordering on self-help...” – Matt Smith [46:22]
• Guy affirms Ronnen’s advice: “It's great advice...I totally agree.” [47:42]

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Essential Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps):

• On Young Entrepreneurs:

  • “Betting on yourself in your 20s is the best decision you'll ever make.” – Ronnen Harary [05:27]

• On Balancing Acquisition & Innovation:

  • “You want those timeless brands that have high awareness among consumers and then you want to infuse it with innovation.” – Ronnen Harary [08:12]

• On Surviving Commodity Price Shocks:

  • “There are certain things we can’t control. Commodities, we just can't control it. …Turn lemons into lemonade...” – Ronnen Harary [16:37, 18:33]

• On Scaling in a Family Business:

  • “The question is, what do you want to aspire to be?” – Ronnen Harary [31:00]

• On Founder-Identity Separation:

  • “It's very difficult...I would say the first thing I would recommend you do is get an office.” – Ronnen Harary [41:50]

• On Enjoying the Journey:

  • “Enjoy the moments. It goes fast...It's more important to actually enjoy the journey.” – Ronnen Harary [47:07]

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Segment Timestamps

• Spin Master Update & Innovation: [04:13 – 09:14]
• Ann Williams / Yearly Company (Gold Bangles): [09:48 – 19:16]
• Felix Colin / Island Bee Company: [23:40 – 33:56]
• Matt Smith / Wandering Soul Beer: [36:49 – 46:40]
• Closing Reflections: [46:42 – 48:55]

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Tone & Style

Throughout, Guy Raz is warm, conversational, and probing, eliciting direct, candid, and sometimes philosophical reflections from Ronnen Harary. Ronnen’s practical, kindly irreverent advice channels decades of hard-earned entrepreneurial wisdom, always urging guests to clarify their aspirations, respect the limits of what they can control, and—above all—enjoy the ride.

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Summary Usefulness

This summary stands alone as an engaging, structured recap for listeners (or founders) interested in bootstrapping brands, scaling through adversity, and navigating founder-life balance. It highlights actionable insights and inspiration applicable across industries.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

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[Guy Raz]

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[Guy Raz]

on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you.

[Guy Raz]

And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call. And you just might be the next guest on the show.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Our number is 1-800-433-1298.

[Guy Raz]

Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

issues or questions that you'd like help with.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Ronan Harari, co founder of Spin Master, which started

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

out as a toy company back in

[Guy Raz]

1994 and has since gone on to become a multinational multimedia entertainment empire. Spin Master is the company behind the mega hit franchise Paw Patrol, as well as Air Hogs, Bakugan and so many more toys, including Rubik's Cubes. Now, Renen, it's so great to have you back on the show.

[Ronan Harari]

Great to be here, Guy. Thanks for having me on.

[Guy Raz]

So you were first on the show back in 2021 when of course, you told me the story of Spin Master, which we will put a link to in the show notes. And I know I always say this, but it is a phenomenal episode. You've got to listen to this one. Thank you, Ronan. Before we get to our callers, I'd just love to get an update from you since you were last on, you were at that time, I think you'd recently transitioned from being co CEO of Spin Master, which you'd done for like 25 years, to becoming chairman of the board. So what is your involvement with Spin Master these days?

[Ronan Harari]

You know, I'd say I've spent about 30% of my time in the business, so managing the board and the board of directors and working on special projects. One of the special projects I worked on was getting our worldwide AI studio going. So we built that up. So I've been busy doing that. I just finished writing a book. So, yes, I gotta tell, you know, it's one thing to write a book, it's another thing to like sell a book. It's like Starting a business. So I almost feel like I'm back in startup mode again, which is kind of nice.

[Guy Raz]

Tell me about the book. Full disclosure, I've read the manuscript. It's not a traditional memoir. It's sort of a how to guide, but directed toward a very specific audience. Tell us about it.

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah. It's called no experience necessary. Why betting on yourself in your 20s is the best decision you'll ever make. And it's really a manifesto based on my lived experience about why I think that your 20s is the best time to start a business, if you're so inclined to. And I write about certain things that in your twenties that accrue to you. Things like everybody's rooting for you. The power of not knowing. And then I try to help people reframe their thoughts around risk and luck and equity and control so that all the benefits from that time can accrue to them.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, it's a great message. And again, not to say that if you're beyond your 20s, this won't have relevance, but I think the key argument of the book is a lot of young people, they sort of. They feel like they don't have any advantages. Right. Because they're young, they're not taken seriously. They see older people succeeding and doing all these things. But in actual fact, when you're in your 20s, you've got this insatiable hunger and energy, and you can learn very quickly. You can learn new things very quickly. You're exposed to things that people in their 50s aren't exposed to. So there are massive advantages to being young and starting something young.

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah, no, exactly. It's all about the ability to start and being brave enough to take that step and then all the things that will come your way once you've actually started on that journey. And you can't map that out till you actually start.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Well, congrats on that. I'm sure it's a relief to have that out in the world. I want to switch gears for a sec, Ronan, because I remember when you were on the show, one of the things we talked about was how fickle the toy business is because you're dealing with kids. You know, they like something for a few months and then they move on. And the key is trying to come up with a multi generational brand, which is like the Holy Grail. Really hard you guys tried to do it. And finally you did succeed with Paw Patrol. A lot of the things that you guys built were innovated inside Spin Master. You created these ideas inside of the company. But over time, as you've grown, you've

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

acquired some legacy brands.

[Guy Raz]

Etch A Sketch, Rubik's Cube, Melissa and Doug. A brand we actually did on the show many, many years ago, we had Melissa and Doug on the show. So when you think about a company like Spin Master, what's the balance between acquiring existing brands and really innovating from inside, coming up with the ideas from

[Ronan Harari]

within, I would say you want at least a 50, 50 balance. One of the things we did was we took a lot of the earnings that we made from Paw Patrol and we bought Melissa and Doug. And the reason for that was to have to even out the ups and downs of the toy industry. And Melissa and Doug is a very stable, open ended play traditional toy line.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, right. It's like wooden kitchens and kitchens and ice cream makers.

[Ronan Harari]

That gives us a stable, reoccurring revenue and an incredible brand of which to innovate around. And I think that's the thing that you want in the toy industry is you want those timeless brands that have high awareness among consumers and then you want to infuse it with innovation. And that's always been our model. And I would say that we probably over rotated in the last few years since I like to say stepped up from being CEO of the company or co CEO where we became too rigid. And so our culture was actually starting to shift, which wasn't a good thing for us. And now we've leaned heavily back into innovation ideation and then stuff that I was talking about at the beginning. What can we do around AI to make sure that we're staying current? Because I would say that the rate of innovation is very high now and the barriers to entry for people to enter into the toy business or children's entertainment has gone down a lot. So we have to be very, very quick as a company.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, you've got to be right on top of these things because I mean, it's basically a business around building hits.

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah. And keeping things going. Like for example, with Paw Patrol, we have our third movie coming out this August. We bring out a new season every year and within the season there's specials and there's new characters. And then with the toy line, we make sure that we keep the toy line super innovative. So we're constantly refreshing everything within the franchise. You know, our goal is Paw Forever. We started with paw for five, paw for 10, and now we're Paw Forever. We're going into our, I think our 14th or 15th season and we're keeping stuff fresh.

[Guy Raz]

All right. Ronan what do you say? Should we take our first caller?

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah, let's do it. That'd be great.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Ren Harari, co founder of Spin Master. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business, please.

[Ann Williams]

Hi, guys, I am Ann Williams. I'm calling from Nashville, Tennessee. I have a business called Yearly Company, which is a fine jewelry brand. And we specialize in solid 14 karat gold bangles. And these are based on a tradition that was started by my grandparents. So my grandfather gave my grandmother a gold bangle every year of marriage.

[Ronan Harari]

Wow.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in. It's your Nashville. And tell me, so you sell gold bangles? These are bracelets. And is that your main product?

[Ann Williams]

Yes. So bangles that are custom sized, which is kind of really our differentiator, we really say it's to tell your story, so could be one for every year of marriage. It could be to celebrate health journey, a promotion, you know, really whatever speaks to you about your jewelry. But we do probably about 80% of our sales are bangles. And then we have expanded to other just everyday pieces like earrings, bracelets, necklaces. And everything tends to be everything is solid 14 karat gold, natural diamonds. But we really focus on that wearability factor. We want those special pieces to kind of become a part of everyday life.

[Guy Raz]

When did you start the business?

[Ann Williams]

I started it in 2016. It's about 10 years. We're about to celebrate.

[Guy Raz]

Congrats. And how did you, how did it come about? Were you in the business before?

[Ann Williams]

So, no, I had no business being in the jewelry business. I was a stay at home mom at the time. I had started some other businesses. Always had an entrepreneurial spirit, and this is our family tradition. So I decided that I could take a metalsmithing class and learn how to make a bangle in my garage. Didn't think it was that hard. It's harder than it looks. And then just kind of naturally I had this customer base of my family, so started selling them out of my garage. Truly just working during nap times. Listened to a lot of how I built this in that garage and really had no plans to like start this huge business. But the marketing, the pieces, the fact that you come back every year for another bangle, it just kind of grew from there.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Tell me a little bit about how the business is doing.

[Ann Williams]

Yes. So I'm very proud to say we did about $11 million in sales last year. Wow. So we have grown rapidly and then kind of hit like a stabilization period, I'd say, over the last couple years.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Wow.

[Guy Raz]

Congrats. Okay, thank you. Before we dive in a little bit further, what's your question for us?

[Ann Williams]

Yes, so my question, if you've seen the news, cold prices have surged to historic highs in the last 12 to 18 months. So although our order value is up, we've definitely seen a decrease in our order volume. So I'm just really trying to figure out how we adapt, you know, whether it's through product pricing or marketing, how we continue to serve that customer that I've been serving for 10 years when our material price has just so drastically changed, especially in a short period of time.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, of course. All right, Ronan, I want to bring you in. You guys also face some challenges with things like tariffs. So you're not, you know, this is not unusual.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

This is going to create some challenges. Thoughts, questions, ideas for Anne?

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah. So first of all, I just want to share that my late grandmother used to wear bangles. Okay. So I just want to say that when I looking at your website, it just reminded me of my late grandmother.

[Ann Williams]

That's sweet. I love that.

[Ronan Harari]

From a business perspective, I guess what comes to mind for me is, first of all, your geography. If you can share with us, where do you sell your products? Is it just in the United States? How are your gross margins and what are your thoughts around other materials? And because right now, you just do everything with gold, but you don't do anything with other materials.

[Ann Williams]

That's right. So solid 14 karat gold has kind of always been a big part of our story. It's what the bangles were originally made in. It's kind of a material we trust. We, you know, pitch to our customers because you can wear it for a lifetime. We do about 80% of our sales online, about 20% in person. So we have a retail showroom in Nashville. We do trunk shows across the country as well. And we have seen, like, higher AOVs. Obviously, in person, when you're buying, we tend to see that. And our margin has been interesting because we have had to change things so rapidly. So we do very clear price increases with our customers when the gold market has these bumps. So over 2020 to 2024, it was like, oh, maybe we have to do one. And then in the past two years, I think we've done four price increases. And we do give our customers a heads up to order, but we're. We're about 2.25 to two two and a half marking up our products, we're not having to mark them up four times like the traditional jewelry markup, because we're not wholesaling. So it does give a direct to consumer price. We're really excited about that always and confident in that. That feels like an integral part of the business. Because we should, you know, if we were in that traditional markup, be charging much more for the products we can sell direct.

[Ronan Harari]

Right. And you've been able to hold your gross margins as the.

[Ann Williams]

We have. I mean, some of our pieces, you know, we've compromised a little bit. So I would say our, you know, our cost of goods on some of them, it's like 40 to 45%. And like our original bangle, which is kind of our best seller, and it's the piece that we really rely on. I'm constantly kind of pushing back, like, oh, man. If we can just push that volume and keep the price a little bit more reasonable, because we're approaching that $700 price point. And that's been the hardest part, I think, is that it's shocking to a customer to be like, wait, 12 months ago you told me this was $440, and now it's $640. We don't really do a lot of sales discounts, things like that. So I would say that generally we're holding those margins pretty strong. We have repeat customers who understand the price of gold, but we've definitely lost this margin of $300 to $500 price point customer are there.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, obviously you don't want to compromise on the gold and the craftsmanship and the sizing and all that stuff.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

But you mentioned that your existing repeat customers understand.

[Matt Smith]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

They know that the price of gold goes up and they understand that. And so you're not going to. I'm assuming you're not going to get into like gold plated lines. Right. Or like lower quality materials or. I don't know, maybe. I don't know.

[Ann Williams]

I mean, it's. It's crossed my mind for sure. My concern is that part of. I think what makes us so special, you know, a gold bangle is not. We did not invent it. They're sold by so many retailers. I think our custom sizing and our guarantee that these pieces are solid gold is kind of what sets us apart. Yeah, we're in an interesting part of the jewelry market. We're not Tiffany, nor do I ever plan to be, but now our price points are getting higher. We're doing this, you know, less volume and that that feels great in some ways, but there's just that part of you that wants to continue to provide that product to everybody.

[Ronan Harari]

You know, there's certain things we can't control. Commodities, we just can't control it. But what I would recommend to you is you have so many incredible things going for you. You have this incredible direct to consumer relationship. You don't have to go through retail so you can keep your prices in check, which is so wonderful. Your name doesn't have the word gold in your brand. So I think you have the permission from your consumer base to do other things that are not necessarily gold and really lean into the creativity of what else that could be and the price may come down. Gold had a reputation of coming down. It's a commodity we don't know. But looks like from what I see, you have the permission to do other things that aren't necessarily gold in the jewelry space that people would really care for. And I would lean into that while the price remains high.

[Guy Raz]

That's an interesting idea because I initially was thinking you don't want to have gold plated stuff. But you know, actually now that I. And I still think that. But looking at your website, you know, like, what else could you. What other materials could you use? And I think maybe, maybe keeping the designs, but you're offering different metals in that design. I mean, that could be interesting to see what that does because I don't think that's going to affect the qualitative sort of feel of your product line.

[Ann Williams]

Yeah, I think fine silver is kind of another alternative that we've had people ask about before. We do white gold, which is kind of gives the look, but it's still 14 karat. Yeah, but there are things that I consider and yeah. That we would be able to offer at a lower price point, obviously. And even in our concept yearly co of you know, pieces like silver baby cups or, you know, special frames, things that you're going to go to year after year, these things, special milestones in your life. I think there's an opportunity there to expand and help our customers meet them at the place they are on those special occasions. Because we already have that trust and that brand loyalty.

[Ronan Harari]

You have a strong base of customers. So the question is, what else can you sell those customers? And I would turn lemons into lemonade with this situation where it's like, what brand new product line could you guys bring into the world that's different to what you're doing now that can really expand your revenue base. And so it's not necessarily just rethinking the materials within the existing product line, but it's really bringing forth a whole brand new product line that's made of other materials that maybe could be a little bit more contemporary or can conserve a slightly different market or, you know, you're selling fashion at the end of the day, so it's like, you know, what else can people do they want to wear for different occasions that you can provide to them.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Ann Williams. The brand is called Yearly Co. Good luck. Thanks for calling in.

[Ann Williams]

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, thank you. Stay with us because after the break

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level.

[Guy Raz]

That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

the advice line right here on How

[Guy Raz]

I built this lab.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. I've been using Claude when I'm prepping for interviews, and it's become one of those tools that helps me get out of the messy middle faster. I I can be looking at a founder's timeline, trying to understand what happened when, which early decisions mattered, what the real turning points were and where the story actually starts. And instead of just giving me a quick summary, Claude helps me work through the material and find the thread, the thing that connects where someone started to where they ended up. And that's what I love about it. Claude doesn't just give me answers. It helps me think through the problem and organize what I already know and get to better questions. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. And now with Cowork, you can use Claude to help with the operational work that piles up, too. Point it at a folder on your computer or or connect tools like Google Drive, Gmail and Slack. Describe what you need, and it can help organize files, build spreadsheets, draft reports from scattered notes, and queue up tasks so you can come back to finished work. So whether you're in deep research, prepping for a conversation, thinking through strategy, or just trying to hand off the busy work that slows everything down, Claude helps you keep moving for problems worth solving. Get started with Claude at Claude AI hibt. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering I'm thinking about getting in, filling up and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talk to on this show. Because the best ones obsess over things

[Guy Raz]

their customers will never see.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

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[Guy Raz]

Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Ronen Harari, co founder of Spin Master. And let's bring in our next caller.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Hello.

[Felix Colin]

Hey, Guy. Hi, Ronan. I'm Felix Colin. I'm calling from Martha's Vineyard where my family runs Island Bee Company. We're an apiary run by three generations of my family and we produce raw honey. But our most popular product is Hive five, which is a moisturizer made with five ingredients, all straight from the hive.

[Ronan Harari]

Wow.

[Guy Raz]

Well, thanks for calling it. If you look. So this is a family run, family owned bee company, make honey and skincare products and sell them mainly on Martha's Vineyard.

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, so predominantly on Martha's Vineyard through farmers markets and local Stores. We also recently started selling online, but that's only been in the past three to four years.

[Guy Raz]

Great. Okay, so this was started by your parents you said?

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, so it was started by my parents in 1999. I worked for the business part time. Right now my goal is to take it over and to grow it into something meaningful. I have been seeing this business throughout my childhood and I've always been thinking of new things to do on this side and that side. And I think that I've wanted to start a company and then I look and right there before my eyes is one that's small with a lot of potential and I think that it feels right.

[Guy Raz]

What are your best sellers?

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, so the best sellers are honey. Of course. The worry there is that it's not a very scalable product. It's heavy, hard to ship and our production capacity is limited. Our most popular product is Hi5, which is a skin moisturizer with five ingredients from the hive, Raw honey, beeswax, propolis pollen, and Royal jelly which is a proprietary formula that my mom created and it is patented and that's our best selling product right now. And we also sell candles and other kind of gift oriented things. But the skincare product is kind of our bestseller there.

[Guy Raz]

Cool. All right, lots of potential here. What's your question for us?

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, so for 27 years the business has stayed very small and local. You know, I'm ready to grow it. My question is, you know, if in our position, I guess I'm considering focusing on, you know, a more relationship driven business to business channels like corporate gifting or weddings with bigger order sizes or to kind of go aggressively after more of a direct consumer route like TikTok shop, trying to reach consumers directly.

[Guy Raz]

All right, I want to bring in Ronan, ronan Island Bee Co. Trying to figure out what kind of channels to go with to begin to scale this business. Thoughts, ideas, questions?

[Ronan Harari]

Well, first of all, Felix, nice to meet you and looking at your products online, they look amazing and what an incredible opportunity for you to carry your parents business forward. I come from consumer products so this is very close to what I do. So when I heard you at the beginning and you said honey, you can't scale honey and it's not scalable type stuff, I don't necessarily agree with that. I think everything's scalable. The question is how are you going to go about doing it? There's so many people that are starting brands from scratch and it's based on their own personal story and it's based on them doing innovative Marketing. I'm looking at your Instagram and all the things on your Instagram didn't match up with your beautiful branding of your product. There was very much a disconnect there. So for me, I'd be working on the social media, the storytelling, amplification of the brand. TikTok shop is great, a great place to go. It's only increasing. But the question is, how do you tell that story? And how do you tell that story in a way that's going to resonate with the consumers? So I'll pass it back to you. Where are you on that journey and what do you want this business to be?

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, of course. I mean, something that kind of kicked me on this journey eventually was actually listening to the episode with Roxanne Quimby at Burt's Bees, and that really inspired me to kind of see things on a bit of a bigger scale. But also, I think that we have an opportunity, you know, being an apiary on Martha's Vineyard, to kind of play up the more premium aspects of the business. Like, for instance, Tate's Cookies. I think that's one of the companies that I'd like to emulate a little bit. Founded in, like, a East coast kind of summer hamlet area and kind of trying to tie that premium aspect into the brand as well.

[Guy Raz]

You know, I think you've got a lot going for you, as you say, with Martha's Vineyard. Right, Because Martha's Vineyard evokes premium. It evokes the summer quality. Artisanal. I have a slightly different take on TikTok than Ronan. I agree that you want to really use those channels to build your story, but I wouldn't actually push selling this on Instagram right away, only because in Ronan, you may have a different view if something hits on Instagram that can create operational chaos. Just, let's just say, I mean, it would be an amazing problem to have,

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

but a huge problem to have.

[Guy Raz]

What's your annual revenue right now?

[Felix Colin]

Between 150 and 200,000.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so 150, 200. You're still small.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

And if all of a sudden you're

[Guy Raz]

getting endless orders, it's going to be really hard for you to handle that kind of chaos. I mean, I think you have an opportunity right now to look at things like B2B.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Right?

[Guy Raz]

I mean, you've got a really special clientele coming to Martha's Vineyard.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Those are the people who are going

[Guy Raz]

to see your product. And this is what happened with Sunbaum. Sunbum was selling in small boutiques in Hawaii, and that's how it exploded over time, because you had hype, you know, sort of affluent customers coming, buying this and then seeing it and then wanting it to be on the mainland. I think that you have an opportunity for sure to try and build out a B2B business initially. Corporate, like corporate gifting, luxury hotels, partnerships with other artisanal brands. On Martha's Vineyard. The best known, I think, is Black Dog. Probably maybe at weddings. There's a lot of weddings on Martha's Vineyard. I mean, I would really start there and test that out and really get your ducks in a row before you go all in on social media again. It would be great, but it could also create problems.

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that's something that me and my parents were scared of. If kind of something did come to pass where a video did blow up, it still is produced by my mom, myself and my father. So it would be operational chaos. I completely understand that. And building the foundation there with the corporate gifting and weddings could be an easier way to figure out how to scale operationally before going to those other channels.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Ronan, any thoughts?

[Ronan Harari]

I respectively disagree with my host.

[Guy Raz]

Great. Excellent. I love that.

[Ronan Harari]

I respectfully disagree with them. I think that, first of all, it's very hard to just blow up on Instagram. Like today. You have to be super unique, super different. You have to do a lot of work to make that happen. But I just think that's where the eyeballs are. And you compared yourself to Burt Bees at the beginning. That's a big company. So the question is, what do you want to aspire to be? If you want to build a $5 million business, then you can take Guy's path. But if you want to build a business that's 20 million, 30 million, 50 million, $100 million, I think you got to take a different path. I'm not a big fan of the whole corporate gifting side of things, because it's transactional. You have it one year, it doesn't stay the next year. It comes and goes, almost like the service business. But you have a consumer product. So the question is, do people love the consumer product and will they buy it and will they repeat the purchases? That's the most important thing is consumer products is repeating the purchase. And so you want to be in a place where people can actually buy it on a regular basis. So if you want it to go slower to Guy's point, maybe take a bit of a different path and start to get distributors and go to the gift shows, and go to the food shows and start to get your product in retail and build it out slowly and then see whether or not you have the pos, the point of sale to support your products. Maybe you start with Mercer to Vineyard and you go outwards across the east coast and then you go across the country. But I would just build a chunk by chunk, distributor by distributor, retail shop by retail shop. And while you're doing that, I would be building your social media story on a very consistent basis so that you can have that opportunity to blow up and fill the orders if that's what you want to become. So maybe I'll pass back to you. What's your dream? What do you want this to be for yourself in five or ten years from now?

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, I mean, it's not a business that I'm looking to sell or I want it to continue to be a family business. And I think that long term thinking is very important to me and I think it's been important to the business as a whole. So I think that scaling at a sustainable pace that doesn't create fractions between my parents and I, but also doesn't grow too. Because I think that happens a lot with consumer brands where they grow too fast to support themselves and then it kind of crashes. And I think that. So I want to avoid that at all costs.

[Ronan Harari]

I would avoid you to have that type of thinking because I think you can, you. If you, you can scale as much as you. As you want to scale, if that's what you want to do. The question is if you want to do it right. So I wouldn't put it out there as in, like that will be, you know, the limiter and the thing that I'm. That I'm nervous of happening.

[Felix Colin]

Yes. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

I got to say, I like Ronan's advice. I still think it's slow and steady, but I do agree. I mean, trade shows, I mean, you're going to have to really kind of hit the ground running. Looking at a brand like Burt's Bees and sort of figuring out what your path in is is a really smart way to go about it. But there's a lot of legwork you need to do and a lot of storytelling you need to do.

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. Well, thank you both. I really appreciate the advice. There's so many ideas, but it gives me a lot to think about and consider.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Well, good luck, Felix. The brand is called Island Bee company. Let us know how it goes.

[Ronan Harari]

So excited for you. Enjoy the journey.

[Felix Colin]

Yeah, thank you, guys.

[Ann Williams]

All right.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice.

[Guy Raz]

Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

the advice line right here on How

[Guy Raz]

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[Guy Raz]

Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Renen Harari, co founder of Spin Master and Renee Renen. Are you ready for our next call?

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Ronen Harari, founder of Spin Master. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

[Matt Smith]

Sure. My name is Matt Smith. I'm calling from Beverly, Massachusetts and I own Wandering Soul Beer, which is a craft beer project as well as Hidden Path Brew, which is a non alcoholic beverage brand.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Tell us a little bit about it.

[Matt Smith]

Sure. So, you know, I've been in the beer industry for about 15 years or so working for some other breweries and did a lot of home brewing and went through a personal, you know, life thing. In 2017, actually, my wife was full term in her pregnancy and there were complications and our first daughter was stillborn. Her name was Melody. And after that happened, I had to really stop everything I was doing. It was a formative time for me. And I had been working on a recipe for a beer. 5% New England style hazy Pale Ale. Very sessionable, drinkable beer. And I wanted to release that beer out into the world and call it Melody Maker. And with the connections I had, we sold the first batch and the stores all sold out. And we did it again and the stores all sold out. And from that point it was like, okay, I think there might be something to this. So that's kind of how it started. Obviously very personal and it's great to great to be here, by the way. I should have led with that. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Well, thanks. Thanks for coming on. Tell me a little bit about the business. Where do you sell a beer? You've got a brewery. Do people go buy it there primarily? Are they buying it in stores?

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

So I don't have a tap room. I don't have a place for people to come drink the beer. It's basically, you know, I'm brewing at several different New England area breweries. And then when the beer is ready, it goes to the stores and restaurants here in Massachusetts, as well as New Hampshire, Connecticut, New York. And I was delivering everything myself for about seven years and got to the point where I just signed with a distributor because I just couldn't really manage those deliveries anymore.

[Guy Raz]

And give us a sense of your sales last year.

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, last year sales were around 150,000. Really my best year was Covid 2020 was my best year. Did almost half a million in sales. Everybody was just drinking at home, but it's fluctuated a lot. Actually shut the whole thing down at the end of 2022 because I had reached a point with it where I felt like I accomplished what I wanted to. I had a legacy for my daughter and there was a lot of healing that occurred and I wanted to kind of go out on a good note. So I ended the whole business. And then it came back the next year when people kept asking me, are you ever going to make beer again? And I woke up one Day and said, if one person asks me that today, I'm going to bring this thing back. And it came back.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And before we dive in further, what's your question?

[Matt Smith]

Basically, the question is, in a saturated industry, how do I maintain my identity in terms of releasing beers dedicated to concepts and people? Beer is supposed to be fun and happy. You know what I mean? And maintaining that identity without having it kind of swallow me whole like it did at the end of 2022.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. So you're trying to figure out how do you run a business, but you also have a separate life identity outside of that.

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, yeah. And especially for something so personal, sort of a grief project, it's like, where's the separation? You know what I mean?

[Guy Raz]

Interesting. Interesting question, Renan. I mean, a lot of founders on the show will say that it's everything, right? Their business is their identity. You stepped away from your business, running it day to day. So you have experienced going from this being everything you do all the time to kind of having one foot in, but also being able to do other things. So what do you think? I mean, it's possible to do it, right?

[Ronan Harari]

It's possible, but. Matt, nice to meet you. I feel you. It's very difficult. I'm curious, can you share with us what's your average day like? Do you bring home the work? Do you talk about the work? Do you talk about it with your people around you? Your loved ones, your family, your friends? Are you able to compartmentalize?

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, I think that that's been a challenge. Compartmentalizing. Every day is different. My days were spent in a van delivering beer. Most days now that I have a distributor, they're doing a lot of that work. So mostly it's selling the beer, reaching out to the beer buyers at the different stores and restaurants. Hey, we have this new beer and coming up with the new labels and the recipes. A lot of marketing type work, a lot of social media, but it really varies.

[Ronan Harari]

And are you doing everything from home or do you have an office?

[Matt Smith]

Everything is done here from home. There's an office in my home.

[Ronan Harari]

But yeah, yeah, I would say the first thing I would recommend you do is get an office. It doesn't matter where it is, doesn't matter what it looks like. But I wouldn't be working from home because you can't compartmentalize when your business is in your home. And so there's something very nice about leaving the house, picking up your coffee, meeting people along the way, going to work and interacting. And do you have employees do you have people that are working with you?

[Matt Smith]

No, it's just me.

[Ronan Harari]

Okay, so is there any shared workspace that's close by?

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, there are some places where I could go to do that for sure. I sometimes go to a coffee shop,

[Ronan Harari]

but yeah, I would recommend you go to a shared workspace where people are working and that's what they're doing and they're in the business mode. And I think you'll get a lot of benefits from that in terms of relationships, connections, understanding what other people are doing, staying current. And that's what I do. I mean, I'm a ten to sixer. Back in the day. I go into the office, I do all my meetings, they're back to back. In 30 years I've taken five lunches, I eat them at my desk, I do everything in the office. But then when I leave the office, I know it's my time at the end of the day. And the other thing that I do is I don't talk about work to my friends or my family. I just don't do it. And it's just like, it's just a strict rule that I have. I actually don't even like doing it, but I'm very conscious about it and not like letting it bring it into my life. And then it just creates a lot of space for other things and just lets my mind take a break at the end of the day.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, listen, this is tough, right? Because your business is your. For many of us, it's our lives. This is what I do. This is my business built of productions and the show and other things we do. But I have to say that it takes some, you've got to make some decisions and choices that are not always easy, but you've got to make those decisions and stick with them. So for example, there are some non negotiables that you can build into your life. You can say every morning or a few times a week, no matter what, I am going to take a walk from 7 to 8am you know, you're in Massachusetts, it's freezing cold in times of year, but it's still worth doing. You know, I think in founders I talk to and in my experience I'm very lucky to have a very tight knit group of friends that I see regularly more than once a week. It's not easy. Not everybody has that. It takes time, effort. I mean even. Did you grow up in Beverly in that area?

[Matt Smith]

I grew up in New Jersey and with a group of musicians that we all moved Here and played in a band for a long time. We went on tour and recorded albums. I'm still in the music community. A lot of my friends are musicians or in the beer industry.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, maybe your musician friends just say, hey, I'd love for us to just jam, like, twice a month. Can we just start that? Let's just, like, set aside Wednesday night, no matter what, for two hours. And it just. You want to start with something that's consistent, that gives you something outside of your work because it's critical. It's really important, you know, and it actually makes you better at what you do, I find.

[Ronan Harari]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

No, I really appreciate that. I think that the times where I've been able to disconnect from this, those are the times where I kind of come up with some new ideas. And I do understand what you're saying, Ronan, about not talking about work with family and friends. I kind of wonder if it was always like that for you or if you reached a point where you made that a rule.

[Ronan Harari]

You know, for me, it came by me naturally just because I was so in it during the day that I just was so tired when I got back. I didn't have any energy for it, and I really just wanted the diversity in my life. I just was so curious about other things that I found it kind of boring to talk about my business, to be quite honest. I just found it boring.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, again, I think that it starts with deciding that you're gonna protect some time consistently every single week and take it from there.

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, that's great advice. I'm definitely trying to do that. And I think that will allow for enough separation where I'll feel more refreshed coming back.

[Ronan Harari]

You sound like an incredible human, so I don't think it'll be that difficult for you. I think to just Guy's point, you just gotta make the decision, but you gotta, like. Sounds like you have a really rich life. I'd like to hang out with you.

[Matt Smith]

Same here. I appreciate that.

[Felix Colin]

Thank you.

[Matt Smith]

Thank you very much. This has been just great advice from you guys. It's been hard. It's bordering on self help. I know.

[Guy Raz]

Hey, that's what we're here for, Matt. That's what we're here for. That's what the show is here for. So happy to do it. The brand is called Wandering Soul. Beer. Matt Smith, thanks for calling in, man. Good luck.

[Matt Smith]

Thank you very much.

[Guy Raz]

Ronan, before I let you go, you've got a lot of advice in this new book, which I Think people, especially young people, really get a lot. But if you could go back to you when you were and this is

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

kind of what the book is about, right?

[Guy Raz]

And say, hey, I know all this stuff because I've been in the business now for 30 plus years. I want you to know this. And you go back to yourself and say something like that, what would you say?

[Ronan Harari]

I would say, don't take everything so seriously. Enjoy the journey, enjoy the moments. It goes fast and you really want to be in it and you don't want to be, you know, really stressed about it. And even if things take a little longer, give it a little bit more time to breathe, like you'll eventually get there, but it's more important to actually enjoy the journey. I remember trips where I'd go to a trade show in Japan and I rushed to get home, you know, and now I think about it, I'm like, why didn't I take an extra two days? I was already there. Just enjoy the journey. That's what I would say to myself.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I think that's great advice. I remember being a reporter and I'd be sent somewhere and I would just work, work, work, and then I'd leave and I regret it. So I totally agree. It's great advice. Ronan, thank you so much, guy.

[Ronan Harari]

Thank you for having me on. That was a lot of fun. I hope I didn't talk too much.

[Guy Raz]

No, not at all. That's Ronen Harari, co founder of Spin Master. And by the way, if you haven't heard Ronen's original How I Built this episode, you've got got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast notes section. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. You'd basically been profitable every single year, and you'd been growing every single year. And then all of a sudden, you're not only unprofitable, you're losing a lot of money. Were you worried about whether you guys would make it?

[Ronan Harari]

I actually, personally myself, I rise in a crisis. That being said, I mean, the relationships

[Guy Raz]

definitely frayed, even among the founders.

[Ronan Harari]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Amongst the founders came out inefficiencies in business, the way we're organized. This is why older people have gray hair. You know when people say they have gray hair from something like, this was our seminal gray hair event.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And you have some gray hair.

[Ronan Harari]

I have a lot of gray hair.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can can sign up for it

[Guy Raz]

for [e-mail] and if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

business, the issues or questions you'd like

[Guy Raz]

help with, and hopefully we can help you with them.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

And make sure to tell us how to reach you.

[Guy Raz]

You can send us a voice [e-mail]

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

or call us at 1-1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the

[Guy Raz]

podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Kathryn Cipher, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung,

[Guy Raz]

Karla Estevez, Casey Herman, Kerry Thompson, Chris

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

Masini, J.C. howard, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening

[Guy Raz]

to How I Built this.

[Narrator/Host Intro Voice]

One more mention for our presenting sponsor, Anthropic Claude is built for people who like to keep pulling on the thread, the research, the planning, the questions, the follow through until the work starts to make sense. So try Claude for the next problem worth solving.