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- [00:00]
A
This message is brought to you by Apple Card For a limited time when you get a new Apple card and purchase AirPods Pro 3 at Apple, you can earn back the cost up to 250 daily cash. New AirPods Pro and up to $250 bonus daily cash back. Now that's music to my ears. Subject to credit approval, limitations and spend requirements apply. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at Apple CoAirPods Success is a journey, especially when it comes to your finances. One of the most common obstacles in our financial journey is dealing with high interest debt. It can often leave people feeling trapped, but it doesn't have to. If you're dealing with high interest debt, there is a way forward. A Sofi Personal loan could consolidate all your high interest debt into one low interest monthly payment, helping you craft a roadmap to paying down your debt. It even comes with no fees required, getting you a financial win right away. Keep pushing on your journey to financial success. You could even get as soon as the same day funding. View your rate for a Sofi personal loan@sofi.com Guyraz loans originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 fast funds term apply@sofi.com Guy Raz. Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Sarah LaFleur. She's the founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand MM LaFleur. Sarah, it's great to have you back on the show.
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B
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
- [02:22]
A
Oh, we're excited to have you. You've been on the show twice before, actually. First time was in February 2020 to tell us the story of building MM Lafleur. And like many founders we've had on the show, you started the brand because you had a problem to solve, which was you were a corporate consultant and just too many clothing Options didn't really fit in with what. With what you wanted to wear. And that, of course, was back in 2011. And then, yeah, along the way, you built this awesome brand, but then you had some challenges, especially during COVID And we're gonna get an update about what happened, but it's a great episode. For anybody who hasn't heard it, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. So before we get to our callers, I was hoping to just kind of catch up. Tell us a little bit about how things have been going since you were last on the show.
- [03:08]
B
Oh, my gosh. Well, I feel like I have lived 10 lives, and I think, you know, last time I was on your show, I think I was seven months pregnant. And now my kids are five and a half. So, yeah, it's been a wild five and a half years. And, yes, Covid was horrible for my business. You know, our revenue in 2020 was down 60% from 2019. We had to go through three rounds of layoffs. It was so painful. We had to close every single one of our stores and then reopen some of them. And then we actually opened some new stores as well. So, you know, we. We got to profitability in 2022 again and have just been steadily growing since. And it feels like in many ways, I feel lucky that I got to have a second shot at it. I really thought I was gonna lose it all, and it's been this amazing experience of getting to build and rebuild the brand and hopefully doing it smarter the second time around.
- [04:14]
A
Yeah. I remember in our conversation, the thing that really struck me and I think was so innovative about this brand is the idea of a uniform. And I think about you a lot because anyone who's seen me do anything live or in public knows that I have a uniform. It's a blue blazer and sort of greenish trousers and a white shirt. It's just what I wear when I feel comfortable. I have 15 different blue blazers, and it might sound boring to some, but that's, like, what I feel best in. I feel. And the concept of M.M. lafleur was to create a uniform. Obviously, it wasn't just. It was like a much more. A broader line of offerings, but that was the idea behind it. Now you've expanded it where it's like, it's still very professional, it's still very elegant, but it's not just for the office.
- [05:05]
B
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think for the majority of, you know, white collar professionals, there's some virtual work mixed in with Just how we work these days. So we have a really healthy mix of kind of more casual. We call it power casual clothing. So it's like, it's a blazer and denim. Like, that is like the way a lot of professional women dress these days. And, you know, jackets are now the power item. And I think it just, it makes sense if you think about her lifestyle, like, she might go to the office and then, you know, go to pick up her kids from school, or she might go out for dinner with her friends. And to be able to just like, take off that jacket, you know, it helps you go pretty seamlessly from professional to casual. And now, whereas, like, I think a lot of women would have said, like, oh, I have a rack full of dresses, I think a lot of women have a rack full of jackets.
- [05:57]
A
Hmm. I think we're talking about women sort of roughly late twenties to sort of mid to late fifties.
- [06:05]
B
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. We have almost equal age distribution, which is like one of the things I'm most proud about in our brand. Like, we don't really particularly skew young or mature or, you know, I think the professional woman, like, the way she's dressing when she's 27 is not all that different from how she's dressing when she's 47.
- [06:21]
A
Yeah.
- [06:22]
B
Hopefully she has more disposable income and she's able to invest in. In more, like, quality pieces and things that she'll wear for the long term. But we really, we like to say it, you know, at mm. It's a. It's a psychographic, not a demographic.
- [06:35]
A
Huh. That's really, really interesting. All right, you ready to take our first call?
- [06:40]
B
Can't wait. This is so exciting.
- [06:42]
A
All right, let's do it. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with Sarah lafleur, founder of MM Lafleur. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
- [06:55]
C
Hi, Sarah and Guy. My name is David Rustiano. I'm calling in from Point Pleasant Beach, New Jersey, and I am the founder of a company called Soar. We make muscle recovery products, all natural, non invasive ways to add wellness and self care to your daily routine without adding much time or trouble to it.
- [07:13]
A
Okay, thanks for calling in, David. So tell me what your product is. Is it muscle recovery like Theraguns? What are you selling?
- [07:21]
C
A lot more low tech than theraguns. We actually. Our hero product is called Soursoap and it's a physical therapy tool. Shaped bar of ultra hard analgesic all natural soap and it's hand stamped into a muscle scraping tool. You hang it up in your shower on a suction cup holder so it stays high and dry and germ free. And every time you get in the shower after a run or a pilates workout or just a long day of work, you scrape your muscles. I usually start with the back of my neck and work my way down and I focus on my calves and my Achilles and those areas.
- [07:52]
A
This is like a fascia kind of thing. Like loosening your fascia. Is that the idea?
- [07:58]
C
Yep, it is. It works on soft tissue and fascia and we originally created it with athletes in mind, but it's really, it's straddled into the wellness and healthcare space. We work with a lot of physical therapists. My co founder is a doctor of physical therapy.
- [08:14]
A
And when did you start the business?
- [08:16]
C
Like so many businesses, we started during COVID My men's soccer leagues were shut down here in New Jersey, so I needed something to keep my mind and body occupied. So I went for a long run and my hip flexor was sore. So when I got home, I jumped in the shower like normal. And I saw a bar of Irish Spring in the soap dish that my wife had just put in there. And it has a little bit of a curve on the bottom. And it reminded me of the Graston tool that my doctor, my physical therapist, who's now my business partner, used on my calf when I had a calf strain. So I started to scrape my hip flexor and it felt great. And I worked my way down to my quads and my calves and my Achilles and it was an immediate feeling of relief and recovery. So being the designer that I am, I jumped out of my shower and I ran into my studio and I started drawing logos and Google, you know, doing a Google search for real therapeutic massage soap. And I realized that there was, there was nothing like it out there. So I wrote myself a little poor man's patent. And then a few days later I called my partner, Dr. Dan, and he was interested. And we've, we've been running ever since.
- [09:17]
A
Nice. Okay, and this is sold through your website or do you sell in stores or where can people buy it?
- [09:23]
C
Sure, we do sell it@source soap.com, most, I would say maybe 85 to 90% of our sales are direct to consumer. But we work with a lot of physical therapists and forward thinking chiropractors and athletic trainers and they do sell it in their offices. We actually Just landed a deal to get our non soap tool after we realized that people really embrace this idea of doing, you know, do it yourself muscle scraping. We made a lightweight tool that people could fly with, run with, travel with. It's not metal, it's TSA approved, and it's a very lightweight. You know, we have a lot of people that run marathons and they'll keep it in their vest while they're running, and they'll treat their muscles right there on the fly. So we released that and we were in Vitamin Shop, so that's our biggest retailer to date.
- [10:04]
A
And how. How are you guys doing in sales?
- [10:07]
C
It's been a wild ride. We, when we originally started, you know, we did 16,000 in sales. Then the next year we did 33. And then the year after that we did 120. And then we were lucky enough to be on a show called Shark Tank, which is really an amazing experience. And we did about 440,000 that year.
- [10:25]
A
Wow.
- [10:26]
C
Then we came back down to earth a little bit in 2025 and we're back down to about 105,000, so.
- [10:31]
A
Got it.
- [10:32]
C
Yeah.
- [10:33]
A
So it's pretty big. Had that Shark Tank spike. Now things have kind of leveled up. Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us?
- [10:40]
C
Sure. So, Sarah, listening to your episode of the podcast while I was running, there were so many touch points that I felt I could connect with you and ask you about. Our moms being a big inspiration in our life was one of them. But the question that I centered on, because I think it's a big issue for a lot of founders in our spot whether you're successful or not. We all have that little bit of self doubt. So even as our companies and our ideas start to work, self doubt never disappears. It just gets a little quieter. How did you learn to trust your instincts and keep moving when you weren't always sure you were right?
- [11:13]
A
Great question. Sarah LaFleur, I want to bring you in here for this. Obviously, self doubt. I will just say from the get go, when I have founders who I meet who have no self doubt, those are the ones that worry me.
- [11:28]
B
I was gonna say I was gonna crack a joke like self doubt. I don't know what you're talking about, but I was gonna say it's not a little bit. I feel like managing self doubt is so much of the job. And I think managing your own psyche and is the number one CEO job. I started working with this mental strength coach last year. Primarily. He, you know, he teaches meditation and we Also, do you know a bunch of other things, Journaling is one of them. But it is the first time in my, gosh, 14 years of running the business where I'm finding some relief. And we've been through hell and back. Just like I'll tell you in the past five to six years, obviously we had Covid, which almost took out my business, but then we survived that. And then 2023, we had Silicon Valley bank, which we banked with that was as scary as 72 hours. But then in 2024, my lender went under and we had an urgent capital call essentially. And that actually was probably the closest I've ever come to losing. And every single one of those moments I really dealt with enormous self doubt and how the hell did I end up here and what am I doing? And I really wish I could just throw in the towel and call it quits, but for some reason I can't. I love it too much.
- [13:04]
C
Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like without the business there would be less purpose in my life to overcome those challenges and overcome those emotional hurdles. Like the business has turned into one of my prime motivators to help other people feel better physically makes me feel accomplished mentally and emotionally, if that makes sense.
- [13:25]
B
That's so beautiful. I mean, like, what more could we ask for, you know, in our lives?
- [13:30]
A
Yeah, I would double down on what you said, Sarah. I mean, I think that this is one of the questions almost every founder feels and certainly I hope everyone, every founder that comes on our show because we do vet them. We want founders who have self doubt to come on the show. It's critical and I think for the most part it doesn't entirely ever go away, but it evolves, it becomes easier to manage. And the trick is how do I make decisions even when I'm not feeling as confident? Even with this show, I've been doing it for 10 years. There are times where I certainly have self doubt. Are we doing the right thing? That interview sucked. I think that's natural and I think it's important to constantly interrogate how you're doing things. But I think the way to avoid kind of spiraling into just endless uncertainty, at least in my case. And Sarah, you may have a different take or similar is I look at signals that actually matter, like data or feedback or when I interact with people, and that is really helpful. And in your case there's going to be tons of data like who's buying this repeatedly and what's your customer acquisition cost and what are the conversion rates and that's going to ebb and flow. But it helps to kind of focus, at least for me, when I start to really think about the fundamentals. Even when I have times of self doubt, I find that leaning on the data, even when it's not always great news, is really helpful because it gives me something to kind of benchmark against. Does that make sense?
- [15:21]
C
Yeah, totally. And even if it's a little more anecdotal, in our case, there's fence posts that I can identify in the last few years that, that keep me propped up, that get me through those tough times. Like when we go to the Philadelphia marathon. So many people come over, repeat customers. Oh, I used your product. I PR'd. I ran my best marathon time ever. Or I got through my training block with less pain. I mean, that's such a rewarding interaction. And it was just, it's moments like that, Sarah, that, you know, get you through those nights where you're laying in bed going, what am I doing? You know, especially in this competitive world that we're all in on. Social media.
- [15:55]
A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, first of all, you're an athlete, so you're kind of, you're already here. But I think this idea of like, practice, it's all about the practice. And I will say, like, for me personally, meditation, which I did not used to do a year ago, has been game changing for me because I like work myself into these spirals at times. And then I need to find the calm within. Like, ultimately, like no sense of external validation or the numbers. Like, that's not really what's gonna lead me to calm. It's like I have to find the calm within me. And so you know that I think that could be anything. It could be a walk in the park, it could be coffee with a friend. It could just be you sitting quietly like somewhere. But I think it's like, how can you know that everything you need, you have right here.
- [16:50]
C
Yep.
- [16:51]
B
And how can you get yourself back to that state? I think that's, that's so important. And then I was going to say, I feel like, David, like you, you clearly hit on something with this, like, soap. But I feel like your mission is bigger than that. And I wonder if maybe you could channel some of that energy not into sales and marketing, but maybe it's new product development. Cause I think you're onto a bigger mission about helping athletes take care of themselves easily and more affordably.
- [17:24]
C
I have some ideas.
- [17:26]
B
You have some ideas, right? Okay, great.
- [17:28]
C
I do. I mean, the ideas never stop. It's going through them and qualifying them mentally first. And guy, I wanted to work this in, but you gave me an opportunity. Sarah. My closest thing to meditation that I do is I go for a three or five mile run and I listen to this podcast. I mean, that's my moment of zen. I love that you've got me through many miles that I did. I didn't want to run.
- [17:48]
A
Okay, great. Well, I. And meditation is awesome. I totally agree. When I am consistent, it is a game changer. Hiking in the woods, I try to do that a few times a week. I'm lucky to live near the woods. And one more thing, it's a big responsibility, but a dog. I gotta take my dog out for a walk twice a day.
- [18:08]
C
Me too.
- [18:09]
A
Energy release a few times a week. That is like, that is really the best.
- [18:13]
C
He's. He's one of my best buddies, my little dog Teddy. He's been in a lot of our social media, so we have a lot of followers on TikTok that like, tune in just for Teddy.
- [18:21]
A
Awesome. David Restiano. The brand is called Sora. Thanks so much for calling. Good luck.
- [18:26]
C
Thank you, guys. Thank you.
- [18:28]
B
Thank you.
- [18:30]
A
No, I love those, those questions because it's not about, like, hey, how do I, you know, it's not necessarily about how do I make more money with my business. It's like, how do I just, you know, as you know, running a business is an emotional rollercoaster ride. Running anything is. It's really. Can be really, really hard on your mental health.
- [18:52]
B
Yeah, I could not agree more. It's hard because it's hard. And I think sometimes founders need to hear that message. We're like, oh, why can't I just get this right? Look at this other brand having this kind of success or whatever it is. And, you know, it's. It's not for the faint of heart. It really isn't. And I think we just have to, you know, it's an acknowledgement with yourself. Like, it's hard because it's hard. And you chose the hard path. And the hard thing about hard things, I think that's the name of the book.
- [19:20]
A
Oh, Ben Horowitz.
- [19:21]
B
Yeah, Ben Horowitz.
- [19:21]
A
Co founder of Andreessen.
- [19:23]
B
That's right. He has a chapter where he basically says, like, the best CEOs are the ones that didn't give up. So, you know, I take it to heart, and I think all founders need to hear that every now and then.
- [19:40]
A
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question. And another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.
- [19:58]
B
Foreign.
- [20:04]
A
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Sarah lafleur, founder and CEO of MM lafleur. And let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
- [20:21]
D
Hi Guy and Sarah, my name's Marnie and I'm calling hauling from a little coastal town on the east coast in Australia. My business is called Tick socks, which are fun socks with built in tick protection. I've been working on it for over a year and it finally launched last month.
- [20:38]
A
Awesome. Marnie, welcome to the show. So you are in Australia. Tick socks. These are socks that protect your you from tick. So tell me how they work.
- [20:47]
D
So they have built in permethrin, which is factory bonded. I license an existing textile technology and it lasts through 70 washes versus the DIY methods that outdoorsy people like hikers are used to doing. Which lasts about six washes.
- [21:03]
A
Right. So like when I spray deet on my socks or something, I mean, that may not even last one wash, but this basically means you have to spray yourself. It's embedded in the material. Last 70 washes. Tell me how you came up with this idea.
- [21:18]
D
So a few years ago, I was outside with my newborn son giving him some nudie Rudy time, which is diaper free time, swatting mosquitoes away from him. We were just fresh home from hospital, so I really didn't want to spray him with anything. I'm obviously pro insect repellent, but this was a time when we weren't even putting, you know, gentle soaps in the bath. He was so fresh and new.
- [21:42]
A
Yeah.
- [21:44]
D
So I found myself thinking, what if the blanket that he was lying on could have the repellent in it rather than me putting it on his skin?
- [21:51]
B
Huh?
- [21:52]
A
Okay. All right. So now you are now selling the socks. And tell me about how much do the socks cost?
- [22:00]
D
So they're sold in a box of four for $119 US which includes shipping.
- [22:05]
A
Got it.
- [22:05]
B
Okay.
- [22:06]
A
And where are you selling them? Are you selling them through your website in stores in Australia? Where are they being sold?
- [22:14]
D
So it's direct to consumer, just in the US for a couple of reasons, like it's a much larger market to launch and validate the idea and also the insect repellent industry is heavily regulated, so it made more sense to launch in one market and validate rather than going global and dealing with all of the regulations of all the different countries at the same time.
- [22:38]
A
Right, okay. And I'm just curious, are ticks as big of a problem in Australia as they are in parts of the us? Certainly the east coast of the US
- [22:47]
D
they are a huge problem here, but we don't have the tick borne disease to the extent that the US has, so.
- [22:52]
A
Right.
- [22:52]
D
You know, it's a, it's an enormous public health issue over there, whereas it's not the same over here.
- [22:58]
A
Got it. Okay. Can you give us a sense? I mean, I imagine you're new, so probably sales are maybe a little slow or. How's it going?
- [23:05]
D
Yeah, so I've made almost 20 sales, which I'm actually super excited about.
- [23:09]
B
Great.
- [23:11]
D
Yeah, every time I get a sale, I do a little happy dance. But it, it's already been a journey. Like, I've already learned so much. I've had a few posts go viral and then they did. That didn't translate into what you would expect viral sales to be. So it's been, you know, it's been a rollercoaster already.
- [23:30]
A
Got it. Okay, before we bring in Sarah, tell us your question. What do you, what do you need help with?
- [23:35]
D
My question is, when your product combines functional and emotional value, but people associate it with something that they're used to buying cheap, what actually helps justify the price in those first few seconds before you lose their attention?
- [23:48]
A
All right, great question. I want to bring you in, Sarah, because you have dealt with this issue too. I mean, you are selling premium products, but at a very affordable price now. But I think probably initially you were not able to do that.
- [24:02]
B
Yeah, I mean, Marnie, you were kind of speaking to a lot of the journey that we went through when I first launched the brand, which is that I could sell my products in person. Like when my customers tried on, you know, our dresses, our blazers, they really, they got it immediately and they would convert. But online it was really, really hard to kind of show people why this black dress was so much more superior to, you know, another black dress for a fraction of the price. And I think you're, you're probably running into some of the same challenges here. Just so I better understand, like you mentioned, there are other socks out there that have a similar function to your socks, to tick socks. But what makes tick socks superior is that it maintains that tick repellent quality for 70 washes versus the five to six, is that right?
- [24:53]
D
Yes. So the five to six is the, the DIY method, so you can spray and soak yourself, which is. It's just a hassle. Like, it's laborsome. And that's where that emotional value comes into the equation. Like, it's peace of mind, it's hustle free. But there are like, permethrin treated clothing is a thing, and there are other socks on the market that exist. My biggest differentiation is the look and feel of them. So they're fun and they're made of breathable bamboo. Whereas the alternatives on the market are very utilitarian and they're marketed towards like, you know, the hunters, the hikers. No one's really made it accessible targeting women aged between like 30 and 50. So lots of them are mums. They're looking for like some fun socks that they want their husband or themselves or their children to wear rather than, you know, like a khaki color.
- [25:47]
A
Yeah. I mean, what, what's interesting to me about these is that they're colorful and interesting and, and anybody who's been to an REI or, you know, a, a camping store knows what, you know, getting permethrin and soaking your socks or even buying the clothing. I mean, a lot of it's just, just bo. And so this is fun. It looks fun. But I think your problem. Right, is that it's the price point that people kind of are surprised about because they're looking at this thing, $119 for socks. And I think that the way you want to think about it is that you want to reframe that instantly. Like, you want to kind of push this to moms who are sending their kids to summer camp in Connecticut and Massachusetts where Lyme disease is, you know, rampant. Right. Kids playing in tall grass. And that's where I would sort of focus on the $119. Be really transparent about it. I mean, literally, 119 for socks. For four pairs of socks. And you answer right away, yeah, because we don't sell socks. We sell a summer worth of protection. And then suddenly $119 for four socks doesn't seem like a lot. I mean, that's four pairs of socks you're sending your kid to camp with. You're good to go. Like, I, you know, as a parent who sent my kids to camp, who I'm always like, thinking about tics and always looking for tics after hikes, I would really kind of frame your pitch to that. That audience.
- [27:20]
D
Yeah, absolutely. It's sort of like you're leaning more into the emotional value, which is I've had this tug of war of like, that's, that's where my head originally went and that's where I wanted to go. And then I got a lot of questions of, but what actually is it? Like, what's the actual rep and what's the active ingredient? Like, very technical questions.
- [27:38]
A
Which you should show, which you should show on your website. I would show a comparison between like a microscopic image of the fabric, you know, regular fabric versus your fabric. And I would show that on your site. I would show that in social media that you do. I would hammer that home because I think people are gonna wanna see that.
- [27:57]
B
I was gonna say, first of all, I am that moment that migrates to Connecticut for some part of the summer and we are in like tick city. So I'm with Guy on this one. The first people that I thought about buying this product for are my kids. Like, yeah, of course. I'm worried about myself too. But you know, I know better than to roll around in the field. My kids do not. And so Marnie, I think this is just my hypothesis. I don't think direct to consumer is the right distribution channel for you. I think it's really, really hard to have a single product, a fairly niche single product thrive on direct to consumer. But I think you would kill it at a lot of outdoor stores and I think you would kill it with the camp crowd, like Guy said. And my thought was, you know, at a lot of these American camps, parents have to purchase a lot of gear, a lot of gear, T shirts, whatever bunch of stuff, crazy amounts to get their kids ready for camp, even if it's just a day camp. And I wonder if you can actually partner with these camps directly to say, you know, I have created the best socks for your campers. I will donate 10%, 20% to your camp if you agree to distribute this link and just see if you can pick up, get some traction that way. And that's still direct to consumer, but I think like almost a business to business, you know, type arrangement. Yeah, I'm also, I know you said pricing, but I'm just doing a quick, you know, Google search comparison. Like a lot of these tik socks, they're like L.L. bean has one for $27 or, you know, I'm not saying that they're exactly like your product, but it makes me think the pricing may not be so much the issue. Like it sounds like the market is already priced around there. And I think your products are so fun and exciting and they really stand out when laid side by side by something more neutral and bland and beige, like you said. So I do think you really have a shot at, you know, winning versus your competitor here. But I don't think this should be direct to consumer.
- [30:12]
A
I wonder, Sarah, whether you can split the. What's the cliche I'm looking for in half?
- [30:18]
B
Split the difference.
- [30:19]
A
Yes, yes. Which is you could have a D2C. You can continue the D2C side because obviously that's where you get the profitability. But you may want to look at a distributor in the US who's going to work with. There's still a lot of independent outdoor stores in America. There's rei, which is a terrific brand to work with, and you could even have that distributor work with you to try to pitch them down the road. But the other thing that you might want to do because a distributor certainly is not cheap, is I would just email camp directors and see what they say. You email 100 of them, 30 of them might get back to you.
- [30:59]
D
Yeah. Got nothing to lose. It's a great idea.
- [31:01]
B
Got nothing to lose. And I think they're not used to getting pitches like this is my guess. So they may just be more open to it versus, yes, of course. Be awesome to be an rei. That's where Marnie's headed for sure. Yeah. But like really understanding who your customer is and just going directly to them through this medium rather than, you know, performance marketing and ads, Those are going to be so expensive. And yeah, it's, it's just going to cost way more than what, you know, the business can probably afford right now.
- [31:35]
A
Yep.
- [31:36]
B
Try this route. I'm so curious to hear how it
- [31:38]
A
goes and it builds a brand. And the other thing is some of these camps, all these camps, they have merch. I mean, some of them might say, hey, you could even suggest it. Would you be interested in collaborating where we put our logo on the socks?
- [31:51]
B
Yes.
- [31:51]
D
Thank you so much. So much. Food for thought. I really appreciate it.
- [31:55]
A
Sarah, last minute advice. Any last minute wisdom for Marnie?
- [31:59]
B
Oh, you made the product fun. And I love the packaging. I was going to say the packaging kind of sold me. I was like, I want to open that box. So great job on the branding and making it fun.
- [32:11]
D
Thank you.
- [32:12]
A
Yeah, congrats, Marnie. The brand is called Tick Socks. Marnie Shanahan, thanks for calling in. Good luck.
- [32:17]
D
Thank you so much, Kai and Sarah, thank you. Bye.
- [32:21]
A
Yeah, I'm super paranoid about ticks and I'm in California, so we don't really have Lyme Disease as much. It does occur here. But I have picked off ticks I don't know about you, like, with tweezers and put them in baggies and sent them off to get tested because I'm so paranoid.
- [32:35]
D
Oh, wow.
- [32:36]
A
Yeah.
- [32:37]
B
Yeah. We. Chris is from your husband. Town of Old Lyme. Yeah. Chris, my husband is from the town of Old Lyme.
- [32:43]
A
Oh, he's from. Oh, he is.
- [32:45]
E
That's.
- [32:45]
A
Wow.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah. So you know, the birthplace of Lyme disease. But yeah, when we take out our dog on a hike, he. It's, like, rare that he doesn't come back with at least 20 ticks.
- [32:56]
A
Right. Every time.
- [32:57]
B
Every time.
- [32:58]
A
And then they jump on us. Yep.
- [33:00]
B
Correct. So it's a real. It's a real pain point for a lot of people. A niche one, potentially. But 25 to $30 for. For relief for the anxious parent, and I think a lot of parents could get over that. That price point.
- [33:14]
A
Yeah, man. Ticks are scary. And for some reason, there's only a vaccine for dogs.
- [33:20]
B
Dogs, right. We figured it out for dogs. Hopefully, we can figure it out for our kids.
- [33:26]
A
The human one. Yeah. All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this Lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Sarah lafleur, founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand MM lafleur. Sarah, our. Are you ready for our next call?
- [34:00]
B
Let's do it.
- [34:01]
A
All right, let's bring in our final caller to the show. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Sarah lafleur, founder of MM Lafleur. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
- [34:11]
E
Hi, Sarah.
- [34:12]
A
Hi, Guy.
- [34:13]
E
I'm David Bronke. I'm calling in from Brooklyn, New York. I'm co founder of Siblings, which is an eco home fragrance brand tackling throwaway culture through clean, refillable candles.
- [34:26]
A
David, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling. All right, you're in Brooklyn. Siblings is the brand. It's a. So you sell candles. So I'm thinking, like, we just received, like, one of those diptyque candles as a gift, and, you know, you burn it, and then I don't. I hope we reuse the jar for, like, coins or something. That's not what this is. You don't just throw away the glass container.
- [34:46]
E
Exactly. Yeah. So we're making candles that are better for you and better for the planet. You know, it's a candle you never have to throw away, so you simply reuse it through scents and seasons with our easy candle refills. And these refills are what come in 100% compostable bags. And all you have to do is melt the wax, pour it into your forever vessel, and you have a new candle.
- [35:09]
A
Huh. Okay, so just to clarify, you get these nice kind of containers, ceramic or whatever they're made out of, and do you, like, put in the microwave to melt? Like, how does that. Is it like little pellets of wax? Like, how does that work?
- [35:24]
E
Yeah, it's different. So you're right. It is a ceramic vessel. We actually have our ceramics. It's 95% recycled clay. And then the bag, it's 100% compostable. And inside of it is a block of wax. And you stick that bag in the microwave, melt, it takes a couple minutes, and then pour that into your forever vessel or your candle that's empty, and you just are able to refill easily.
- [35:48]
B
Aha.
- [35:49]
A
Okay, got it. And all right, so tell me a little bit about the business. When did you launch it?
- [35:54]
E
Back in 2019, I launched this business with my sister, hence the name Siblings. We grew up on a horse farm outside of Buffalo, New York, and we just watched our parents live very sustainably. I mean, it was limited material things, everything passed down and fixed, and the biggest compost pile you've ever seen behind the barn. So we just had that sustainable mindset instilled in us early on. Years later, Eva, my co founder, is living in Stockholm, and she's surrounded by incredible Scandinavian design. And like a lot of people there, she was burning endless candles through the long, dark winters. And when she kind of looked closer at all these candles she's burning, she just. Something was off. Somebody didn't feel right. You know, it's this beautiful ritual that's supposed to bring you joy, and you end up throwing it away again and again, and that doesn't feel good. So that's ultimately what led to Siblings.
- [36:44]
A
I love it. And all your sales are direct to consumer right now?
- [36:47]
E
Primarily all direct to consumer, but we do have a few retailers such as Credo Beauty and Nordstrom.
- [36:53]
A
And are your sales one offs or are they subscriptions or how does that. What's a split?
- [36:58]
E
Yeah, it's actually the subscription side has been growing because we've started what we call a seasonal box. It's curated so each season, there's three new scents that a subscriber can get. Otherwise, though, I would say it's pretty split. A lot of people kind of just try to pick and choose the fragrances that fit with them and what they're looking for at that time, or they find a favorite and they just kind of get the same one over and over again.
- [37:20]
A
Got it. And give me a sense of your sales. How'd you guys do last year?
- [37:24]
E
Last year, we did over 2 million in sales. So the business is doing well.
- [37:28]
A
Amazing.
- [37:29]
E
Yeah. And we've kind of been in that low seven figure, though, for the last few years, and we're trying to break out of that.
- [37:36]
A
Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us?
- [37:39]
E
Yeah, so, I mean, I get. For ages, Americans have been in the habit of buying a candle, disposing of it when it's done. You know, some people try to recycle it, try to repurpose it, but the reality is most just end up in the trash. And it really is nagalous to the way people thought about plastic water bottles. 15, 20, 20 years ago, we bought that bottle, we drank it, threw it away. Now that's almost unthinkable as we've embraced reusable bottles, and that's what candle vessels should be. So the question we have is, what are the keys to shifting consumer behavior towards refilling something that people are used to throwing away?
- [38:14]
A
Okay, great question. Sara LaFleur, I want to bring you in before you answer David's question. Any thoughts or questions for him?
- [38:22]
B
Well, I was just gonna say I love the concept. I think everything you said rings really true to me, especially as someone who runs a fashion brand. Like this idea of, you don't wanna be the person who's just making more crap and putting it out in the world. And I think it's so beautiful that you and your sister founded this business. And I would say it's genuinely the first time I've heard of anything like it. So well done for coming up with that angle and then also executing on the product side. Cause I imagine that wasn't easy either.
- [38:54]
E
Thank you. Yeah.
- [38:55]
B
I was wondering with candles, because I don't. It's not that I've never bought a candle for myself, but I usually receive them as gifts. And I do have scents that I like, but I haven't been particularly loyal to one scent or to one candle brand. I'm curious what percentage of your consumers are buying it as a gift to someone else versus buying it for themselves?
- [39:20]
E
It's something that we've tried to find obviously through surveys and other things. And we can kind of see when the shipping address is different from the billing address. You know, that sometimes a little bit of a telltale.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah.
- [39:32]
E
And we try to, we try to find out who is gifting and it's still a small percentage. And I think that's partly because we're not maybe marketing it as well as a gift. We kind of tend to talk more towards the, the user as themselves. But I think you're right. Candles are a very giftable item and we might be missing that a little bit.
- [39:52]
A
Yeah, I, yeah, I agree. I mean I, you know, I was thinking about the question, right, like how do you shift consumer. This is a question we get a lot because this is a, a heavy lift. Like how do you get people to start to think about this in different ways? And one of the reasons why I was curious about your subscriber base is because that really is. Seems to me that is a, is a huge opportunity, right where you, you create that habit of getting a refill or ordering a refill when you get close to the end of the candle. When you send out a candle to somebody with the sense are you able to kind of time maybe a typical burn life cycle to send them an email or maybe you might even have a phone number like an SMS to remind them hey, it's time to, to order a refill.
- [40:40]
E
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, I mean we have a really strong retention rate because of that. And what we tend to do is, you know, some people are quick burners, some people are two, three months, they're just a little bit slower. And we kind of try to see that through our data of like when they're going to be out and try to present something to them, whether it's a new scent or their favorite scent at the right time.
- [41:00]
A
Yeah. You know, I think what, what's interesting is if you can sell the idea of, of less friction, right? Like if you can like I think of SodaStream. SodaStream, most people are just buying sodas, right? But then once it became easy you just go to the store and just get the CO cartridges. Lots of people adopted that and love it. And that has become relatively low friction for most people. And so that to me is like the idea of like this is easier than just going and buying a new candle. But there's one other thing and I think Sarah, this really speaks to what you do, which is I'm not convinced that eco friendly and sustainable and better for the planet actually matter as much. I actually think right now what matters to especially your kind of consumer is like the person who buys fewer things but better things. That's in a lot of ways, that's the new luxury to have fewer things that actually are of value. And I wonder whether you can kind of lean into that idea. Like, this is like. Like having fewer, better things. That's actually luxurious.
- [42:05]
E
Yeah, I actually agree with you. That's something that we talk about internally, me and Eva. A lot of we've just seen it. There has been this shift. I think people care about the better for you, better for the planet, and the sustainability side. But I don't know if it's necessarily the top of mind for buying decisions anymore, but people absolutely want to have things that they can feel good about putting in their home.
- [42:28]
B
I agree with Guy. I think, you know, maybe the attitudes around eco are shifting, but I do think there's something here between the utilitarian versus, like, the, you know, it's used as a gift. It's often something decorative in your house. And the vessel, to me is like the most important object that you're selling because you're saying that's the thing that you get to refill. That's the thing that never leaves your house. It's never. Once you bring it in, it's going to be here for years. And so that vessel needs to be over the top, beautiful. It's that vessel that really will, I think, emotionally resonate with the customer because they're thinking that this is a refillable candle. The scent's going to come and go, but it's the vessel that's going to stay in my home forever. And I think that's where you have an opportunity to differentiate more. I think right now it's a relatively straightforward looking. You know, it looks like a nice ceramic pot, but I wouldn't say it's wildly different. Like, if I. You want a sibling's vessel that's like, unmistakable. When you see a sibling's, you know, vessel, you know it from anywhere.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah, I think that's a really great idea, and I think you're right. So the design is nice. It's lovely. It reminds me a little bit of Heath Ceramics, if you know that brand. But there's an opportunity to really use that as a canvas, to try interesting things. I think practically speaking, with $2 million, you probably have a limited marketing budget. But even if it's just a few thousand dollars, ideally you want to use about 10% of that for marketing. But it's a lot. But I would really lean into videos that short form videos that really show the ease of use and the beauty and the simplicity of having this beautiful vessel. And I would consider spending some time and not you don't have to spend a whole lot of money, but time thinking about how to make some simple videos.
- [44:37]
E
I love that. Yeah, it really is. It's a visual item.
- [44:40]
B
Yes. I think that really also resonates with me. And maybe you already have a lot of these videos or ads running. I think when you were describing the microwave process, I was like, ooh. That for me, was the friction point that came up when I was going down my marketing funnel. I'm now in the consideration phase. What are the things that are stopping me from pulling the trigger? It's, ooh, that sounds complicated. And I think guys spot on with that. Like, show us through video how easy it is. And I think that's one hurdle you can overcome. I go back to the gifting. Like, I'm sure holidays are probably some of your strongest moments. Just really going back to, okay, how can we make this a beautiful gift? It feels like you're opening joy, you're opening comfort. I think that's what we all look for when we gift a candle and hopefully receive one.
- [45:36]
A
Yeah, for sure. I think it's a. You've got your work cut out for you, but you've got a great product and you've got a lot of traction, David. So good luck. The brand is called Siblings, and keep us posted.
- [45:48]
E
Thank you.
- [45:48]
A
Thanks so much.
- [45:49]
B
Thank you.
- [45:50]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that. And also, you know, there's something like kind of Japanese, Scandinavian simplicity. Like, not chaotic lifestyle. Right. Like a more thinking about the hig lifestyle. The hig life. That was the word.
- [46:05]
B
The hig. Yeah.
- [46:06]
A
Right. Yeah. Or higg. I don't know how to pronounce it. Yeah, right. Yeah. My final question for you, Sarah, is if you could go back now to where when you started, M.M. laFleur, you know, almost 15 years ago. And knowing what you know now and all the experience that you have gained, you're a very experienced operator and CEO and leader. What kind of advice could you give to that person that, Sarah, 15 years ago that might have been helpful that
- [46:33]
B
it's gonna take me a decade to become a CEO. Like, I was founder from day one. But I think that's like the confusing thing about the founder CEO role, because you get slotted into these big titles, in my case, at age 27. And, you know, the truth is, I really didn't know what I was doing. But I had this big dream and big ambition and I didn't really care if people thought I was totally crazy because I, I knew what I wanted and I wanted to go for it. But to learn the operations of the job, to really understand what metrics matter and what don't, to learn people management skills and how to run a business, like, it really took me a decade to learn that. And so I think some grace would have been welcome. And I think I, you know, I probably could have asked for more help on, on how to be a CEO. I think anyone can be a founder from day one, but a CEO is a, is a hard job and it has to be in some ways learned on the job.
- [47:39]
A
It's great advice and I think not enough people acknowledge that. That's, that's exactly right. Starting the business, one thing, running it successfully is another thing. That's Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand MM LaFleur. Sarah, thanks so much for coming back on the show.
- [47:55]
B
Such an honor and just incredible to be back here five years later and get to play a small role in this amazing family. That is how I built this. So thank you very much.
- [48:08]
A
Well, you are a part of it now and forever. And by the way, if you haven't heard Sarah's original How I Built this episode, go back and check it out. It's a great story. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that episode.
- [48:23]
B
We still continue to do trunk shows. We had revenue goals for the month and so if we weren't meeting our revenue goals, then we would, you know, set up a trunk show stat.
- [48:32]
A
Right.
- [48:32]
B
But online it was just a totally different story. We could not sell our dresses.
- [48:37]
A
I have to assume your cash reserves were getting close to running out.
- [48:40]
B
Not only did we run out, it actually went into the negatives. Our bank account, I think at one point said like negative 2000 or something. And I didn't know you could draw down beyond zero. So that was a wake up call.
- [48:54]
A
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing. Because we would love to to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, J.C. howard, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Masini, Kathryn Cipher, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line right here on How I Built this Lab.