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This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is designed with your iPhone in mind, making it easy to get started and even easier to use. Apple Card is a no fee credit card you can apply for right from the Wallet app on your iPhone. Apple Card has no annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees. No fees period. Every credit card should be this easy. Get started in the Wallet app today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or@card.apple.com Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com Success is a journey, especially when it comes to your finances One of the most common obstacles in our financial journey is dealing with high interest debt. It can often leave people feeling trapped, but it doesn't have to. If you're dealing with high interest debt, there is a way forward. A SOFI personal loan could consolidate all your high interest debt into one low interest monthly payment, helping you craft a roadmap to paying down your debt. It even comes with no fees required, getting you a financial win right away. Keep pushing on your journey to financial success. You could even get as soon as the same day funding. View your rate for a Sofi personal loan@sofi.com guyraz loans originated by sofi bank na member fdic terms and conditions apply nmls 696891 fast fund's term apply@sofi.com guyraz you may have heard the best voice in show business, Morgan Freeman, talking about a serious and underdiagnosed heart condition that's often ATTR Cardiac Amyloidosis or attrcm. It's a condition that can greatly disrupt your life with symptoms like severe fatigue, shortness of breath and carpal tunnel. If left untreated, ATTR CM may become serious, leading to a shorter lifespan. A truby helps adults with ATTRCM live longer and have fewer hospitalizations due to heart issues, so you can focus more on living for what you love. Tell your doctor if you're pregnant, plan to become pregnant or are breastfeeding and about the medications you take. The most common side effects were mild and included diarrhea and abdominal pain. If you have attrcm, talk to your cardiologist about a Truby and visit attruby.com podcast that's a T T R U B Y.com podcast to learn more. It's time to get busy living. Brought to you by Bridge B. Hello and welcome to the advice line on
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how I built this lab.
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I'm Guy Raz.
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This is the place where we help
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try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary
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founder, a former guest on the show
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who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you
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need advice, give us a call and
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you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that
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tells us about your business and the
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issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Susan Griffin Black, founder of the personal care brand EO Products.
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B
Susan, welcome back to the show.
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C
Thank you so much for having me. So good to see you, Guy.
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B
It is great to see you were first on the show back in 2019. You came on to tell us the origin story of EO products and how you grew it from a 10 gallon pot in a garage into a major natural personal care brand. And we will put a link to that episode, of course, as we always do in the show notes. You should go check it out, really. Especially if you're interested not just in skincare products, but learning how to take a brand from basically a farmer's market to a massive national brand. This is the story that you got to listen to. Susan, I know that today you're focused on leading EO Products and continuing to grow the brand. Can you kind of tell us a little bit about what we left off in 2019? We've, of course, kept in touch, you've kept in touch with our team. But for people who don't really know what's going on with eo, tell us a little bit about where you guys are today.
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C
Well, when we spoke in 2019, we had a pretty clear growth plan and strategy. And then, surprise, Covid, I was on my way to our annual Natural Products Expo trade show in Anaheim. And as I was driving there, the trade show was canceled. And my sister called me, whose partner is an ER doc, and said, everybody's gotta come home now. And I remember it was like a Friday night. I woke up Saturday morning. We had a little retail store in downtown Mill Valley and people were lined up around the block because they wanted hand sanitizer.
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B
I mean, from what I understand, I mean, you saw like a 10x surge, right. In hand sanitizer demand.
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C
Yes.
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B
During COVID and Thank you for sending me some too. You did? That was so nice. But of course, as the demand fell, you know, you saw like a 50% drop in sales. And this was, of course, a challenge. Probably one of the most challenging things you had to deal with.
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C
It really was, you know, we. Because we'd been around for, you know, 25 years, I think people cut us as much slack as they could. And we worked together. It was very relationship based. A packaging company that we did maybe $30,000 worth of business prior to Covid. We are on the hook for $2 million. Wow. And I had to link in with the CEO and just explain our story and see if he would give us a promissory note for the next two years to. And work our way out of that, which they did. But it was that and dealing with the problem of, you know, just three times as much. Five times as much inventory as we should have, and then also layoffs for the first time. You know, that was in your entire history major. Yeah.
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B
Yeah. I often come back to your episode because it really.
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A
And we've had versions of this in
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the show now, but. But it was so remarkable, and for people who haven't heard it, is that you started this company with your then husband Brad. You divorced in the middle of building this company, and the two of you decided to stay running the business despite being divorced and despite going on and having new relationships. And it's a remarkable story because you together said, this is the best thing for the company. We're gonna scale it together. I remember when I interviewed you, just thinking, what an adult.
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What a smart, hard, but smart decision that you and Brad made.
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B
Cause often you've got partner, founder partners, breakups that they're not married, they just end up falling out. And what you guys managed to do was just incredibly hard. But smart.
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C
I think it was smart and it was good for the business and good for our family and good for our children. And when you're a founder, entrepreneur, your business is kind of like another kid in some ways. Right. So it was really the highest good in this situation. And I also want to say, for the record, you know, there were no other people involved and there was not like a betrayal. So I have to say that out loud because I've had this conversation over the years so many times. And, you know, people ask us all the time, and we. We've been divorced for longer than we were married, you know, and we're family, you know, that's just how we are.
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B
Well, again, we will put a link to it in the show notes. It's a great episode, especially to understand founder dynamics. I strongly recommend people check it out. Susan, are you ready to take our first caller?
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C
I am.
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B
All right, let's bring our caller on. Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Susan Griffin Black, co founder of EO Products. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
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D
Well, thank you. Hi, guy. Hi, Susan. Hello. So honored to be here with you. Really love you both so much. I'm Dr. Ruchi Gupta. I live in Chicago and my company is Yobi. And Yobi is a unique skin, scalp and hair care line using our probiotic based natural ingredients to protect that skin barrier.
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B
Wow, thanks for calling. Should I call you Dr. Gupta or.
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D
No, call me Ruchi. Okay, Ruchi babies.
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B
All right, thank you for calling in. So you are a doctor, and I'm assuming you're a dermatologist or a skin. What kind of doctor are you?
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D
So I'm actually a pediatrician. I'm a professor at Northwestern and Lurie Children's and I lead a research lab that studies eczema and food allergies.
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B
Wow. So I'm assuming that's how. Yeah. Tell me how this idea came about.
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D
Well, it's very personal. And as fate would have it, our daughter was born with severe eczema and cradle cap. And I found myself using steroids and all these chemical filled products on her. So she became the inspiration for our research. We got a team of dermatologists, microbiologists together, and we finally developed this formula that cleared her skin. Then it worked for so many of our patients. And then we thought, we really need to share this with the world.
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B
Yeah, because I mean, I think a lot of people listening have, you know, little eczema on a bit of skin. And my way of dealing with it, if I can avoid scratching it, is
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to just not touch it.
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B
And then it just goes away. You know, sometimes it could take a week or two or more.
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A
Yeah, but that's not ideal.
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D
Yeah. So people talk about the microbiome and we think about it in the gut. Right. A lot of people are taking probiotics, but we don't think about it on the skin. And our skin contains, you know, billions of bacteria, fungi, viruses, and they all live in this harmony. Well, when this harmony gets disrupted, that's when your skin breaks down and you get that irritation, itching, and breakdown of the skin barrier. And so instead of you like, having this urge to it and just avoiding it, you know, being Able to put something on that skin that helps rebalance it and support that barrier. Hopefully, your itch will go away way faster.
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B
And so you decide to start a skincare line. Tell me how, where you sell it and a little bit about how you can get it and how you're doing, how the business is doing.
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D
Sure. So we have five products. We have a scalp mask, a shampoo, conditioner, skin cream, and body oil. And we're currently selling on our website. You'll be care.com and then we also sell on Amazon, and we are starting to sell in more like businesses like sports, spas, salons, physicians offices, Medispas.
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B
And tell me a little bit about how the business is doing. Like, how did you do in sales
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A
last year, for example?
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D
Yes, last year we ended with about 330,000. And we are growing and we're hoping this year to double or little more than double that.
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B
Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us?
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D
So my question we started talking about it is where do we sell? Do we focus and double down on D2C or spread our focus and really get into these professional channels? Spas, doctor's offices.
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B
All right, let's dive in. Susan, please join the call here, sailor.
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C
Richard, I'm, like, holding back from jumping in. I'm so excited to meet you and did a little research on your website. And I wish you were around when my kids were little, because there's a real need for products that work that are not steroids. And so I'm not an Expert really, at D2C because we've sort of chosen a different path to be in natural food stores. And that can get quite pricey in its own right. But I like spreading out distribution because it all feeds back into D2C anyway, and it just gives you more exposure and more advocacy and more accessibility.
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D
Well, and our products are for adults, too, so. Susan.
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C
Right, I saw that.
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D
Yes. And we thought about Whole Foods, because I know your story very well, and we did talk to our local Whole Foods. And to your point, it's just the shelf space and the cost for being on shelves versus in offices where they're recommending you. So I'd love your thoughts.
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C
Well, I love offices that are recommending you. I think that's terrific. I guess it's. How do you scale that and how much effort it takes to scale that? Right. With what Salesforce and, you know.
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B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the challenge, I mean, as you know, is the customer acquisition costs with DTC are just increasingly getting. They're just Getting higher and higher. Right. But it sounds like, I mean, by the way, what's the repeat purchases through the website?
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D
Yeah, about 40%. Right.
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Amazing. I mean, that's really great. Right. So you already, you really want to double down on your existing customer base because that's really where you've got that long term value. I think that you want to continue the D2C for sure, but you also want to focus on the other side, which is your story and the trust that is embedded in this product. I mean, I think about Orgain. We had an episode on Orgain a couple years ago and Andrew Abraham is a doctor.
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Right.
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And he, as a young man, he had cancer and he was fed, you know, those like shakes to gain weight
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and they were horrible. And so he wanted to make a natural, better version of that. And that's how he created Orgain. And that's the story he tells on that packaging.
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I think that you could literally put
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your picture on there and say, I
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created this for my daughter, you know, in a research lab because your story is so compelling and that's what you're selling.
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That's your asset. It's trust. It's not just the product.
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B
And so I think that you really, you know, while you continue D to C, you really want to see if you can get this into the hands of dermatologists and pediatricians and medi spas and, you know, salons, because that's. It's about discoverability. And I would start in your area, like you're in Chicago, the Chicago area. I would really focus building it out there first because to build it out city by city is going to be more expensive. You got to get a team to do that.
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D
Yes.
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B
But I think that's really where the right now where you should put your energy.
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D
Okay, now this is really helpful. And that's. We were thinking about that. Let's start Chicago. Let's call every salon, every spa, every medispa, every head spa, all these cool things that are starting to become popular. And then I'm trying to do, yeah, I've heard all your, not all probably, but most of your episodes and you know, your advice on, you know, getting yourself out there. So I'm trying to educate on social media and I want to, you know, give sound information on eczema, on skin, but on any health topics, you know, to really, I think that's my space, like you said, so appreciate it.
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C
Yeah, I mean it's so authentic, you know. And I also really like what you said, guy about local, you know, we got all crazy in the beginning and we'd be running, you know. You know, if you just get grounded kind of where you are, who you know in the community and take like, you know, 150 mile radius to start and then it sort of ripples from there. Maybe you know, mers apothecary near you, you know, Zidomers in New York, erewhon, you know, very high end, personal, been around a long time, still really care about serving their customers in that particular way. And a lot of testimony and a lot of like really good people will show up on that path.
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B
I totally agree. I mean this is a huge market, right? I mean eczema, any kind of skin issues, like probably it's huge number of people we're talking about. And I think once people discover it, you also want to make it really easy for them to reorder. Are you using QR codes yet at all?
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D
Yes.
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B
Okay, great. You've got an email list. Are you sending reminders to people every couple of weeks or you know, hey, time to reorder or anything like that.
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C
And subscriptions also, you know, possible, right?
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D
Yes. We started subscriptions on our website and Amazon and we do remind them if we don't see they've ordered in three months, we'll send them a.
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A
Hey, and I notice you have a
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B
blog on your site. Do you send that out to your mailing list? The articles?
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D
Oh, I don't know if we.
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B
Well, you should do that. I mean it's this free advice from a medical professor. This is really valuable information. I would take the blog entries and turn them into a monthly newsletter and just send it out to your customers. You're saying, hey, tell a friend and we'll give you 25% off your next order.
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D
It's a great idea. No, I really appreciate it. I mean we're sending newsletters, but I'm trying to get more education out into the world.
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B
That's it. It's all about that. And just give people free information that's useful. Don't ask for anything in return. Just give it to them.
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A
They will really.
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B
This is what we do and this is the secret of this show. We just give out information that we know is going to be helpful for listeners. We don't ask for anything in return except for your attention, which is actually asking a lot. But we don't ask you to give us money or anything. Just listen to the show. So I would definitely think about that.
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D
Yes. And guy all as doctors, we like giving out free advice because we trust our doctors. That's our goal, is to help and support. Yeah. So giving away free education on any of these topics, eczema, allergies, et cetera, is my end goal.
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B
Awesome. Awesome.
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D
Thank you.
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B
Thank you. The brand is called Yobi. Dr. Gupta, thank you so much for calling in.
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A
Good luck.
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D
Thank you so much. So grateful.
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A
All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.
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Stay with us.
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I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how
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I built this lab.
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Work can be a little weird. I've had plenty of those moments early in my career, and honestly, even later
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B
I remember stretches where I wasn't totally
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how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Susan Griffin Black. She's the founder of the personal care brand EO Products. And we are taking your calls. And let's bring in our next call.
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Are you ready?
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C
Absolutely.
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B
Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Susan Griffin Black of EO Products. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.
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E
Hi Guy and Susan. My name is Peter Andrews. I am based in San Francisco and I'm the founder of Culture Wine Co. Which is an importer, distributor and e commerce retailer focused exclusively on NuWave South African wines. So the wineries that I work with are all practicing organic farming and minimal intervention winemaking. They're all small, family owned.
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A
Awesome.
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B
Welcome to the show, Peter. So you bring in South African wines from these new wave winemakers. Tell me and where do you distribute them? How do you, where do you sell them?
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E
Yeah, so I have three channels that my business is licensed in. So I have a DTC website, culturewineco.com where I ship to 44 states around the U.S. there's also a wine club like monthly subscription service in there. I direct distribute in California and then I also just started midway through last year branching into other states with distribution partners. So I'm now in Tennessee, Georgia and Washington state and working on a few more now through hopefully before end of year.
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B
Awesome. And have you been in wine for a long time?
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E
Yeah. So I've been in the food and beverage industry for my entire career. Started as a chef, made wine in Italy. I've worked in and opened and operated small bottle shops and also worked in executive leadership for a local very kind of luxury focused wine retailer. But we were grossing 50 million a year by the time I left. Wow.
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B
So how so you start, you started this how long ago? This culture wine company.
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E
Yeah. I only started it in 2023, and it really was spurred from a trip to South Africa where, you know, being in the industry, I can count on one hand how many times a distributor has come to show me South African wine. So I kind of took that as the quality wasn't that high. And it took a visit on a holiday where my inspiration was absolutely peaked. And because of that, I started the company.
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B
How is the business doing?
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A
I mean, I.
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B
We're hearing a lot of. We've had wine, small wine businesses call, you know, call into the show, and we're hearing mixed things. Right. I mean, I live in California too, and it's been challenging, to say the least, for many winemakers. How did you guys do last year?
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E
Yeah. So it's been growing steadily since I got my first container to California, which was only in November of 23. We were up last year 60%. Wow. And year to date, we're up over 150%.
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B
Amazing.
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E
Gen Z and Millennials are definitely partaking, but they want experiences. They want to feel like they are seen in the product. And so I put on a wine festival here called Hela Shannon that's bringing together winemakers from not just South Africa, but California and France and even Australia this year. And I think this kind of grassroots element of it and creating community within it is really working. And so I just kind of keep staying true north with that kind of marketing strategy.
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B
All right, before we bring in Susan, tell us your question.
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E
Yeah, so I'm not just trying to grow a business, but an entire category in South African wine. So how would you suggest to allocate my time and resources between growing cultures, wholesale and DTC businesses while also increasing demand for South African wine more broadly?
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B
All right, Susan, I want to bring you in any thoughts or questions that you might have for Peter.
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C
Yes. Can you just tell us a little bit about South African wines? Like what was your sort of aha moment when you were visiting that prompted this track?
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E
Yeah, totally. I feel like we need a whole bottle of Chenin Blanc to go into this, but I think with South African wine, it's the oldest of the New world wine producing region. So I've been making wine for almost 400 years, but I think the best quality has been made in only in the last 30, since apartheid has ended. And I think historically what we've seen come into the US has been kind of focused on the value category. And I think especially in the last 30 years, you've seen the quality increase so dramatically that now the marketing needs to change, the messaging needs to change, and we need to have better storytelling about the incredible dynamic young winemakers that are taking hold of the industry. So that's where my focus is. I only. I'm really trying to premiumize and change the narrative and make people realize, whether that's trade or consumers, that South African wine is world class and worthy of being in Michelin restaurants. Great bottle lists and just generally something you can drink.
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C
Yeah. And do the high end sommeliers and restaurants and just understand anything about South African wine because it's been at the lower end. Is it like sort of a bevmo product or where has it been traditionally? At retail?
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E
Yeah. So I think traditionally trying to sell wine nationally is very challenging. And usually that means the big guys get the most amount of representation. But I think the big guys have looked at South Africa as a way to create like an inexpensive category. So now that I'm coming in and bringing these small artisan organic farms making like seriously good wine, I'm trying to get the best sommeliers and wine buyers to say, like, just give me 20 minutes of your time. Let me show you these wines and I promise, once it's in the glass, it'll deliver. And it's been working. I've worked with several Michelin restaurants, Michelin star restaurants here in the Bay Area and around California, and they're selling the wine. My California distribution channel has an 80% reorder rate.
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B
80%?
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E
Yeah.
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B
And that's wholesale. Okay, so is that 80% of your entire business is wholesale.
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E
70% of my business is coming from the California direct channel, and 80% of that reorders.
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B
Okay, and what, what percentage of your business is direct through your website?
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E
So only 15%. Okay. Basically the way that I've used that channel to date is all the wholesale work that I'm doing kind of funnels people into realizing I even exist. I haven't spent any money on digital advertising. I do have a pretty robust social media presence, like through Instagram, and I keep wanting to try to build that, but it's been entirely organic. So there's a lot of opportunity there. But I've really just let all the work I'm doing wholesale kind of feed into the DTC side.
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C
And what's the tariff situation for you right now?
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E
So definitely a huge headwind. 2025, it was 30%. So it was the highest of all major wine producing nations. It's now reduced to 10%. But now we have the fun of a weakening dollar and rising fuel Costs. So that's basically brought us back to Squ. And I think that the real challenge with South African wine within that is there's not as much price elasticity in regions like Burgundy or Champagne. There's kind of clout to it where you can say, hey, I have to go up in price 10, 15, 20%. You just don't have that. That type of ability yet with South Africa. So margin pressure is definitely a real. A real concern.
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C
You know, you're so well situated with your relationships from, you know, your. Your whole life of work. Yeah, my. My family was early in. In the wine business in Paso Robles. They made small vineyard, Windward vineyard, Burgundy and Pinot Noir. That's all they made. So I've heard about all of the ins and outs of this for a lot of my life and really understand the relationship piece of it that the people you know and that trust you will work with you and grow with you, and you're bringing something of quality. It seems very organic and natural that it'll work.
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B
I agree. You've been in this business a long time. You've got so many relationships and so many advantages. And, I mean, I'm assuming most of your sales are still in California, right?
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E
Yes.
- [31:24]
B
But to me, it's. And, you know, this having been in the business so long, like, there are strategic places where you really want to double down. I'm thinking that Nashville. I'm thinking Austin. You know, I'm thinking Chicago. Not just New York and San Francisco, but Charleston. Like, places where there really is more of an intentional. That word is overused. But intentional conversations around food and wine.
- [31:52]
E
No, you're. It's like you're speaking my language, my goal. I think one of the biggest shortcomings with even the premium South African wines that have been here is a very small producers, and they're put into far too many states. There's not enough wine to satisfy those states, and then consumers don't know who they are. And so my goal is to be in a small set of states with distribution partners that are cities like Charleston, Nashville, Chicago. I want to be able to go to those markets and train the distributors, train the sales teams and the sommeliers and wine buyers. So to your point, I just kicked off with my distributor in Tennessee two weeks ago, and we sold 100 cases of wine in three days.
- [32:37]
B
Amazing.
- [32:38]
E
You know, so it's. There's so much potential in markets like that where it's just. It's. I think people don't think of it first like, they would say New York, but you go there and there's incredible food scenes.
- [32:49]
B
I think what you're really after is how do you. How do you create more demand for South African wine?
- [32:56]
A
Right.
- [32:56]
B
And Susan may have a different view. And again, it may just be because of my age, but I really tend to only drink whites now because reds are harder for me to drink.
- [33:07]
C
Right.
- [33:07]
B
I love them, but. And maybe your younger customers, it doesn't matter. But if there was a way where you could really focus, like 70% of your inventory is whites. I just. I feel like that's been happening for a while. I might be wrong.
- [33:23]
E
Yeah. So you're. I mean, you're speaking to a broader industry trend. White wine is definitely outselling red wine these days, and it's partly why I started the wine festival. It only focuses on Chenin Blanc.
- [33:33]
B
Chenin Blanc, which is amazing.
- [33:35]
A
I mean, right.
- [33:36]
B
You can't get better than Chenin Blanc.
- [33:38]
E
And South Africa grows, you know, 60% of the world's chenin now, so it's really become the homeland of it. So you're definitely very consistent with the industry trends there.
- [33:48]
B
Awesome. Susan, any last thoughts?
- [33:51]
C
I love the idea of the white wine focus also, because it really seems to be happening, and then anything that's more natural and if they're growing regeneratively, then I would say make that just that word on labels and talking about it with customers, because it really sort of exceeds the expectations of organic. That. That would be a really good thing to focus on as well, because that's a real differentiator.
- [34:19]
E
Yep, definitely. Actually, a couple of my estates are regenerative growers, so you're. Yeah, definitely will highlight that more.
- [34:26]
B
All right, keep going. I hope we can. We've been a little bit helpful, Peter, but sounds like you're onto something. I mean, especially as the broader industries has some headwinds. So congrats, good luck, and, you know, keep us posted.
- [34:39]
C
All best, Peter.
- [34:40]
B
Thank you, Culture Wine Company. Check it out.
- [34:43]
A
We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller.
- [34:47]
B
Stay with us.
- [34:48]
A
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Every business is now asking the same question. How do we make AI work? For us, the possibilities are endless, and guessing is too risky. But sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain. Your competitors are already making their move. No more waiting. With Netsuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP. Trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes your AI smarter. So it doesn't just guess. It knows how to automate routine tasks, deliver actionable insights, and help you cut costs. From software and IT services to healthcare equipment, manufacturing, financial services, and many other great American industries, NetSuite delivers a customized solution for your business. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get their free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com built the guide is free to you at netsuite.com built netsuite.com built Even if you want to take care of your mental health, it can be hard knowing where to start and when you start worrying about the costs and logistics. You might talk yourself out of finding the help you need, but fortunately there's Rula. Rula makes it easy to access affordable quality mental health care with sessions costing an average of $15. Insurance. They accept over 120 insurance plans nationwide and actually show you your cost up front so you're not guessing or worrying about some surprise bill later. Rula focuses on quality care. They vet their providers and monitor outcomes. And 93% of patients report feeling better and making real progress. With Rula, you can find a therapist for your specific needs in as little as five minutes and even book an appointment as soon as the next day. So instead of overthinking it, you can actually take the first step. If you're ready to stop talking yourself out of finding care and making progress, then head to rula.com that's r u l a.com and take the first step. Welcome back to the Advice line on
- [37:29]
B
how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with eoproducts founder Susan Griffin Black. So Susan, let's go to our final caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Susan Griffin Black. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.
- [37:46]
E
Hi Guy.
- [37:47]
F
Hi Susan. My name is Dominic Wyndham Giddens and I'm calling you from the beautiful Caribbean island of Barbados. I'm the co founder of Wyndham's Beijing Coffee Roasters and Caned Dog Coffee. We're a specialty coffee roaster where we're focusing on crafting coffees with vibrancy flavor from our island experience and we want to become an international Beijing coffee brand.
- [38:12]
A
Wow.
- [38:13]
D
Okay.
- [38:13]
B
Welcome to the show. Dominic and Cane dog Coffee. Is that your dog, Cane dog?
- [38:17]
F
Coffee is my dog, yes. My dog. The mascot is my dog, Macchiato Mac for short.
- [38:24]
B
And I'm assuming Cane is the sugar cane, right?
- [38:27]
F
Sugar cane, yeah. So cane dog is technically the term for a straight. An animal that's born in the cane fields. They're friendly, they're scrappy. Regretfully, it's a negative. I found macchiato on the side of a cart road, or a track road you would call it. He came up to us, I saw him. I saw his beautiful eyes, took him home. And now he lives a pretty good life, I bet. And he's given us, he's our spirit guide and helping us, pushing.
- [38:57]
A
I love it.
- [38:58]
F
Our coffee around the world, I love.
- [39:00]
B
Okay. So when did you start this business, Dominic?
- [39:02]
F
We've been in this business for 25 years.
- [39:04]
E
Wow.
- [39:04]
F
It's all I've ever done. It's in Barbados. In Barbados, Completely. I started when I was 22 with my wife. My wife is actually our CEO and so we've been married and in business together for 25 years.
- [39:18]
A
Are you a lifelong Barbadian?
- [39:21]
F
I'm Bajan. I was born, raised and educated in Barbados.
- [39:24]
D
Wow.
- [39:25]
B
Amazing. Okay, so you've got this coffee brand. Tell me a little bit about where you're selling it.
- [39:29]
A
It.
- [39:30]
F
So we sell it everywhere. That's just the truth.
- [39:34]
B
We're all selling everywhere in Barbados.
- [39:35]
F
Everywhere in Barbados. We're a small, tiny island, so that's, we've, we've primarily focused on Horeka hotels, restaurants and cafes. We have a lot of high end tourism. You then go to offices, then you go to supermarkets, you go to gift shops, you go to little, what we, what you will call a bodega, a little rum shop. Wherever you can find someone who's going to buy your product, we sell it too.
- [39:58]
B
So you're everywhere in Barbados. And how are you, what do you, what are you generating a year in sales?
- [40:03]
F
We just this year hit about US$2 million.
- [40:07]
B
Got it. Okay. And are your margins pretty good?
- [40:10]
F
The margins are good. Barbara Base is an expensive country to live in and work in.
- [40:15]
B
Yeah.
- [40:16]
F
And we've grown on average, organically, 10% every year. And we have, we're breaking out. We do actually sell direct to consumer in the us, UK and Canada. We've shipped as far as China. People find us, they love us and they keep on buying it again and again and again.
- [40:36]
B
All right, and you're also selling, I think you mentioned direct to consumer too, right? So what percentage of your sales are through your website?
- [40:41]
F
Well, we. Yeah, so we started off as a food service company. So that is the bulk of sales. We are 80%. Hotels, restaurants and cafes. We then get into supermarkets. There's only two supermarket chains in Barbados. And so we are competing with a lot of international brands because of our tourism is high end. There's every international brand you could think of has come. The benefit is because of that, we're actually able to create and craft a product that is of international standard. And even better, we have now won 25 awards in the UK for our products. And it gives us the want to say, can we push further? I mean, we used to import Italian espresso into Barbados. It's how I learned everything that I know. But I'm importing an alien culture to my island, so why can't I do the reverse?
- [41:37]
B
Got it. And the idea is you want to turn this into a brand beyond Barbados.
- [41:43]
F
Correct.
- [41:44]
B
Actually, what's your question for us before we.
- [41:45]
F
Yeah, well, I guess because in Susan, it's very important. As I said, Mandy, my wife and I have been running this company we booted bootstrapped from the very beginning. Your story is very interesting how you never took on investors. I think you failed forward sometimes. You were always on the brink of failing. And that's happens with entrepreneurs is what happens. The challenge I have is I am based on an island. Everything that I do costs three times more. Just like I have to go do a trade show, I have to get on a plane. I can't drive to the next island or to the next country. How do you think I could scale my company internationally while still being based in Barbados?
- [42:30]
B
Ooh, interesting dilemma. Susan, I have some thoughts. I'm happy to start. I would love to hear your thoughts or any questions you might have for Dominic.
- [42:39]
C
This is a great one, really.
- [42:42]
F
Thanks.
- [42:42]
C
My question is where is the closest marketplace with the most potential?
- [42:48]
F
That is a great question. The closest marketplace will be the United States or the uk. The reason why we've always focused on the UK is because historically Barbados, we were colonized by the uk. We were like a jewel. We are actually known as Little England until we became both independent, but now a republic a couple years ago. And the majority of our tourism, 60% are UK based. The United States obviously is the behemoth. It is the powerhouse that buys everything.
- [43:19]
C
And can you, can you tell which part of the United States or is it.
- [43:23]
F
It's all over. We do actually have, I would say Maryland. Funny enough, Maryland works because we have one person who's been buying three kilos of our coffee since 2017 every three months.
- [43:36]
B
So a couple things, right?
- [43:38]
F
Sure.
- [43:38]
B
We did an episode on Sunbum, the suntan lotion, many years ago, and it was created by a guy in Michigan. Okay. Who's gonna buy suntan lotion from a guy who lives in Michigan? Well, he very smartly started by selling
- [43:53]
A
these in boutiques in Hawaii because he
- [43:55]
B
knew that affluent travelers went to Hawaii. They need suntan lotion. They would try it, and then they would go back home, and eventually they would see this product, and it would evoke those memories. The challenge you have, and I think it's solvable, is Cane Dog says nothing about Barbados.
- [44:12]
A
I mean, you have a great story Caribbean.
- [44:16]
B
It's hospitality, warmth, music, culture, sunshine.
- [44:23]
A
I don't see that in your branding. And I wonder if you can, because
- [44:27]
B
it's like, you know, there's a famous. This idea called the Provencal paradox. I'm just quoting it because it's very funny. It's the idea that people go to Provence, and they're sitting on a balcony somewhere, and they're drinking the. That they're being served, and they're like, wow, this is. Now I'm in Provence drinking this.
- [44:44]
A
It doesn't even matter what it is, but it's the pink wine. And they go home, and they bring a case of it home, and then
- [44:50]
B
they order it because of the experience. And I feel like that's what you
- [44:55]
A
want to tap into. Like, hey, you can have this island
- [44:59]
B
experience at home with your coffee.
- [45:02]
A
Right? You know what I'm saying?
- [45:04]
F
I fully agree. The reason why we went to Canedog, though, is also because it started off as a sub brand. It was, to us, it was not our main product. But here's the thing. We a b. Tested it at trade shows. Everyone loves the name Cane Dog. I don't know why. The name just resonates with people.
- [45:24]
B
I mean, even something like premium Caribbean coffee on the front, like, you want to think about your brand as, like, a premium brand. Like, I don't think there's a single brand that people know of as a Caribbean coffee. I really feel like you want to
- [45:42]
A
really lean into that.
- [45:44]
C
I totally agree with Guy. Doesn't everyone want that T shirt? Doesn't everyone want that, you know, mug and that artwork and that branding and that, like, does carry the day, and it's authentic, you know, I mean, it is the real story, and then that story travels. And especially for the people who have stayed there and want to bring something back with them, because you just recreate that experience when you have a coffee. So that is a strong point.
- [46:20]
F
Understand fully.
- [46:21]
B
Yeah, here's the thing, because you want to get this in the hands of Americans, in the hands of people in the uk Big markets, very, very hard to do quickly, but you have an opportunity. I would say take cane dog and start and make sure, if you're not already there, to be in every single island, Martinique and St. Vincent and Guadalupe and Montserrat and Gila and all the British Virgin Islands, make sure that that logo, that look, their stickers, the coffee, it's all over the Caribbean islands first. And then you sort of prove the concept and you'll find that organically it will start to migrate.
- [46:57]
C
Right.
- [46:58]
B
To spread out to migrate, because.
- [47:00]
C
And so are you the only Caribbean coffee company?
- [47:06]
F
No, we're not the only one. I think we're the only one with so many great taste awards. I think the real challenge is actually especially cheaper and easier for me to send goods to the United States, the UK and Europe than to get it to an island that's 30 minutes next to us. Purely because of trade treaties and all that, we can't get our products into the other islands. Even though we're meant to be part of a group, they don't really work in that way. The United States is a massive market. That's the thing. But that's the point. It's almost too big. And so it's like, where would you say, especially as where you were able to go, maybe from door to door, I've completed that stage. I now need to say, okay, how do I take this leap from this little island? And where would you start? I guess if you were me, I think that's the right thing. Where would you start? If I wanted to break the United
- [48:00]
C
States, it depends on Marilyn.
- [48:02]
F
Exactly. I'm going to go find him.
- [48:05]
B
I think it all depends on what kind of regional grocer you can get in with.
- [48:11]
A
Right.
- [48:12]
B
So maybe that could be your approach. And let's say you got into H E B, then you'd go to Texas, and you say, okay, we're going to try to get into one H E B. And hopefully we're going to eventually get to 40 of them or however many they have in Texas. But there are these regional grocery chains. And I would think about it that way before you say, all right, I'm going to start in New York, or I'm going to start in South Florida, or I'm going to go to Maryland. I would start by trying to identify and pitch different small regional groceries and see which one is going to give you a shot and focus on that market first. Book a two week long trip to the US and you go and you sell the hell out of this to any buyer you can. You give them this coffee and you say, this is what you're about to drink is going to blow your mind. And maybe, maybe you'll hit, maybe one of them will say, okay, let's give you a shot.
- [49:01]
F
Maybe what I can do is take one of my hotel clients and say, send me to one of your hotels in the United States and let me sell coffee.
- [49:09]
B
Absolutely.
- [49:11]
A
All right, Dominic.
- [49:12]
B
The brand is called Canedog Coffee.
- [49:14]
A
Good luck.
- [49:14]
B
Good luck, Good luck.
- [49:15]
C
Yeah.
- [49:16]
F
Thanks, guys.
- [49:16]
D
All the best.
- [49:16]
C
We'll be looking.
- [49:17]
F
Bye, Susan.
- [49:18]
C
Yes, thank you. Thank you.
- [49:20]
B
All right. Cane Dog Coffee. See, it sounds like I've had 20 cups of coffee today on this show, Susan. I'm all wired up. Susan, thank you so much for coming on the show. Before I let you go though, I want to ask you this question, which
- [49:33]
A
is because you started this brand, right,
- [49:36]
B
and you have now all of this experience because you've been doing this for, you know, few decades, if you could go back to you when you started out, right when you started this out and you could say, susan, you need to know this because I'm coming from the future, what would you tell yourself?
- [49:53]
C
I think really understanding who you are as a person and what's important informs so much of and so many of our choices. This idea of starting locally and really, really engaging with people that you know and you take that first hundred miles and you really go hard and strong and see what you learn and who you learn from and all, all of that, that is a great foundation and base to start from without driving yourself crazy to be in this market or that market or that. Because those markets will always be there and, you know, relationships rule the day.
- [50:36]
B
Yeah, for sure. Susan, thank you so much for coming on the show again.
- [50:41]
C
Thanks for having me.
- [50:42]
A
That's Susan Griffin Black, co founder of EO Products. And by the way, if you haven't heard Susan's original episode, as I mentioned,
- [50:50]
B
you've got to go back and check it out.
- [50:51]
A
We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free@guyraz.com or on substack.
- [51:03]
B
And of course, if you are working
- [51:05]
A
on a business and you'd like to be on this show. Send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that
- [51:12]
B
you're currently facing, because we would love to to try and help you solve them.
- [51:16]
A
You can send us a voice memo@hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Casey Herman, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella and our our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production team at How I Built this also includes Alex Chung, Karla Estevez, Sam Paulson, Chris masini, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Katherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab.