Advice Line with Tim Ferriss

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: How I Built This with Guy Raz
Episode: Advice Line with Tim Ferriss
Release Date: August 28, 2025
Host: Guy Raz
Guest: Tim Ferriss (entrepreneur, investor, author, podcaster)

---

Main Theme / Purpose

This Advice Line episode of "How I Built This" is dedicated to live, actionable business advice for entrepreneurs facing growth challenges or key decisions. Guy Raz is joined by Tim Ferriss, celebrated for "The 4-Hour Workweek" and his self-experimentation approach, to provide strategic wisdom and practical guidance. The episode features real-time coaching for three founders, focusing on managing business growth, choosing between verticals, and pivoting business models, along with broader insights on work, life balance, and entrepreneurial mindset.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

1. Tim Ferriss' Life and Work Updates

[04:16–09:57]

• Ferriss on Following Passions
  Tim shares his strategy of diving into new, often "off-menu" projects every few years (e.g., angel investing, podcasting, now a tabletop card game called Coyote).
• Counteracting Digital Overload
  His latest project—a quick-learn, quick-play analog card game—was driven by a desire for real-world, in-person connection as an antidote to “digital malaise and loneliness.”

  “If you think you're going to use discipline to beat teams of computational neuroscientists and statisticians ... you're just bringing a butter knife to a gunfight … try to offset it a little bit. I think that in person still counts.” (Tim Ferriss, 06:37)

• Identity Diversification for Founders
  Ferriss recommends diversifying your identity across multiple interests, so your entire sense of self-worth isn't tied to one company's success.

  “If your entire identity and self-worth is wrapped up in your company, there are too many factors outside of your control that can give you a real curveball type of damage.” (Tim Ferriss, 08:36)

---

2. Caller 1: Lauren Menard, Founder of GOB

[10:10–21:48]

Business: Biodegradable mycelium-based earplugs
Challenge: How to scale two very different verticals (music venues and DTC sleep market) without losing focus.

Key Segments & Advice

• Traction Overview ([10:49])
  • Music venues: Partnership with a major venue owner, reaching thousands live per night
  • DTC: Growing base for sleep-use consumers
• Clarifying the Dilemma ([12:10])
  Lauren seeks advice for balancing simultaneous, distinct growth opportunities.

Tim Ferriss’s Approach

• Prioritization & Sequencing ([12:49–14:27])
  Tim suggests building up a strong, reliable revenue stream via venues to fund experiments in customer acquisition with DTC.

  “Could it make sense to build up your coffers and generate a nice, healthy, reliable stretch of income with the music venues ... and then you can make an informed decision...” (Tim Ferriss, 13:37)

• Investor Pathways & Brand Vision ([14:27])
  Ferriss probes Lauren’s end goal—whether to stay independent or build a venture-backed category leader.
• B2B as Marketing Leverage ([18:01])
  If possible, use venue-partnership branding (“exclusive provider”) to build social proof for DTC, especially with limited marketing dollars.
• Operational Advice ([17:15–19:40])
  Venues/B2B is more scalable with fewer people vs. DTC, which is more competitive and resource-intensive online.

Additional Insights

• Guy’s Channel Suggestions ([16:08–16:41], [19:41–21:19])
  • Explore airline partnerships for product exposure.
  • Explore brand partnerships in both verticals and hire category experts (e.g., Lauren hires ex-VP of Liquid Death).

Memorable Quotes

“If you had the right employee or contractors for selling into more ... venue conglomerates ... you could actually get a lot done with like one full time, one part time ..." (Tim Ferriss, 19:40)

---

3. Caller 2: Emily Bordner, Founder of EB&CO

[26:08–35:43]

Business: Midwest-based women’s accessories brand (rings, earrings, headbands)
Challenge: With brick-and-mortar DTC generating most revenue but wholesale growing fastest, which should she focus on?

Key Segments & Advice

• The Taylor Swift Bump
  Emily’s brand exploded after Taylor Swift wore one of her rings, causing a huge spike in both online and wholesale sales.

  "Taylor Swift wore one of your rings…my sales went up 50%...it was just like, ding, ding, ding." (Emily Bordner, 27:47–28:18)

• Scaling Questions ([28:37])
  Should she double down on the biggest source of revenue (retail/DTC) or capitalize on rapidly growing wholesale?

Tim Ferriss’s Approach

• Evaluating Profit over Revenue ([29:48–30:40])
  Ferriss encourages evaluating both top-line and bottom-line contributions from each vertical.

• Operational Scalability ([30:59–33:23])
  Emily admits wholesale is less operationally taxing, while brick-and-mortar is fun but resource-heavy.

• Experimentation Period ([33:23–34:40])
  Tim suggests allocating a 6-12 month block to prioritize wholesale, streamline retail, and test the growth hypothesis.

• Guy’s Tactics ([32:29])

  • Recommends attending trade shows to boost wholesale growth.
  • Suggests hiring someone to focus exclusively on wholesale expansion.

Insightful Moments

"People start businesses and run businesses for a million different reasons … if you really enjoy the time in those [brick-and-mortar] spaces, they're not mutually exclusive." (Tim Ferriss, 33:23)

---

4. Caller 3: Kimberly Becker, Founder of K. Becker

[36:49–47:52]

Business: High-quality, sustainable clothing for women over 40, made in NYC from Japanese and Italian deadstock fabrics
Challenge: Whether (and how) to transition from holding inventory to a pre-order (or made-to-order) model in a market accustomed to immediacy.

Key Segments & Advice

• Unique Selling Propositions ([36:57–39:30])
  • Exclusivity & quality materials
  • Founder handles all aspects: design, sourcing, and sales
• Pre-order Model Concerns ([39:34])
  • U.S. customers have “instant gratification” expectations.
  • She seeks advice on executing the shift and communicating value.

Tim Ferriss’s Approach

• Low-Risk Experimentation ([41:12–43:31])

  • Suggests “limited edition drops” as an initial experiment.
  • Make small batch, pre-order process a feature: emphasize scarcity, exclusivity, and the story behind deadstock fabrics.

  “You make it a feature instead of a bug.” (Tim Ferriss, 43:31)

• Messaging, Not Just Mechanics ([43:59])

  • Reframe “pre-order” as “made-to-order” to reduce negative perceptions.
  • Emphasize high-touch, club-like experiences—let most loyal fans get first access, even fabric swatches.

• Community Building and Loyalty ([44:17–47:31])
  Ideas: build a “club” around exclusive pre-launch previews, behind-the-scenes content (perhaps using Patreon or private YouTube), or tactile elements like mailed fabric swatches.

Quotes

“If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. But if it does work, then all of a sudden you’ve created a new type of loyalty program which has a community where they get to be part of it.” (Tim Ferriss, 47:31)

---

5. Tim Ferriss’s Reflections & Closing Advice

[48:18–50:22]

• No Single Path in Entrepreneurship

  “There's no one right way to do it and there's no one better finish line than another.” (Tim Ferriss, 48:33)

• Mind Mental & Social Health

  “As much as you pay attention to the business health, also pay attention to the mental health and the social health side of things.” (Tim Ferriss, 49:13)

• Focus on Your Core Market
  From Tim’s original interview:

  “You shouldn’t convince the world. You should convince the people who match most closely to what you’re providing...it’s not about the number of people who don’t get it, it’s about the number of people who do get it.” (Tim Ferriss, 50:04–50:22)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tim Ferriss: "If you think you're going to use discipline to beat teams of computational neuroscientists...you're just bringing a butter knife to a gunfight." ([06:37])
• Guy Raz (on Lauren Menard’s product): "Have you approached airlines?" ([16:08])
• Emily Bordner (on the Taylor Swift effect): "...all of a sudden like that Shopify ding happening. And it was just like, ding, ding, ding." ([28:06])
• Tim Ferriss (on business variety): "It’s a puzzle and you can get handed a different Rubik’s Cube every day, every week." ([48:07])
• Tim Ferriss (founder mindset): "It’s not about the number of people who don’t get it, it’s about the number of people who do get it." ([50:04])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |:--------------:|--------------------------------------------------| | 04:16–09:57 | Tim Ferriss updates, Coyote game, off-menu projects | | 10:10–21:48 | Caller 1: Lauren Menard (GOB earplugs) deep dive | | 26:08–35:43 | Caller 2: Emily Bordner (EB&CO accessories) | | 36:49–47:52 | Caller 3: Kimberly Becker (K. Becker clothing) | | 48:18–50:22 | Tim Ferriss reflections, closing wisdom |

---

Tone & Language

The energy is warm, encouraging, and practical—Guy Raz and Tim Ferriss bring both tactical advice and philosophical perspective, mixing data-driven business strategy with stories about personal experience and the human side of entrepreneurship. There’s candid recognition of the realities and joys of building something from scratch.

---

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in high-leverage decision making, brand building, and balancing revenue, growth, and personal well-being. The hands-on, founder-to-founder advice dives below pat answers and provides real-world playbooks to help entrepreneurs scale, pivot, and thrive. As Ferriss reminds listeners, the best entrepreneur path is one that fits your own life, ambitions, and sense of meaning.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I recently stayed in an amazing Airbnb apartment on a trip abroad. And the apartment I stayed at was beautiful and just so centrally located. It was amazing. I would go there again and again. Have you ever been lying in bed at an Airbnb, maybe scrolling through your phone when you realize, wait a minute, could I do this too? Hosts Asking that question has allowed me to feel at home in beautiful places around the world. Your home is probably worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host if you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple shop pay button you see at checkout? The one that makes buying so incredibly easy? That that's Shopify. And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it. Because Shopify doesn't just make amazing buying experiences for customers. They're also the experts in helping small businesses grow big. Stop seeing carts going abandoned and turn those sales into Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com bilt go to shopify.com bilt shopify.com built if you've started your own business, you know just how many challenges there are, big and small. I mean, look at how I built this building. This show came with a lot of trials. Late nights, very, very early mornings. But even though there were challenges getting started, there is something that makes setting up a new business easier. Getting connected with AT&T business it doesn't matter what your business is dealing with, AT&T business helps to make it much, much easier. And that's the point of a provider in the first place. Making building your dream easier. Wake up to the power of ATT [e-mail] that's business.att.com hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like. Help with and you can also send us a voice [e-mail] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] or on substack and we'll put all of this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Tim Ferriss. He's an entrepreneur, investor, host of the Tim Ferriss show and author of many books, including the Four Hour Work Week. Tim, it's great to have you back on the show.

[Tim Ferriss]

Thanks for having me back. So nice to see you.

[Guy Raz]

You too, Tim. You were first on How I Built this back in 2020. And as always, for anyone listening, if you haven't heard that episode, it's so good, we'll put a link to it in the episode description. So check it out. In that episode, Tim, we talked about your time as a student and learning Japanese and how you got a sales job out of college and then you started your own business, a supplement company. And then of course, you published your first book, which many people know you for the four hour work week. And initially you couldn't even find a publisher. And the story of how you managed to use your blog to get it out there and sold millions of copies became a massive bestseller. And of course, since then you've written several other books. You've launched a massively successful podcast, which hit a billion downloads last year. Congratulations.

[Tim Ferriss]

Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Give us a little bit of an update about what's been going on in your life since we last spoke.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, there are a number of simultaneously running chapters, so supporting a lot of early stage science.

[Guy Raz]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

And then I would say every three to four years, I want to try something completely off menu professionally to see what I can learn. The angel investing after the success of the first book, the podcast after the third book, et cetera. And now I've spent two years working on a card game. This is a tabletop analog game that is called Coyote that is now launching everywhere.

[Guy Raz]

I think part of your story, for people who haven't heard it, is that you kind of follow your, your passions and your interests in ways that have led you to do not just interesting things, but things that have been lucrative, that have worked out like your podcast was just kind of a started out as just a fun little project which turned into a real business. Now you're doing a card Game, which is totally out of left field. Tell me about how you what inspired this idea.

[Tim Ferriss]

So I tend to explore these off menu, add a left field things for skill development, learning and new relationships. Right. So the podcast, I launched it as a lark, but I basically wanted to ask myself, how could this win even if it fails? And I did the same thing with angel investing, just treated it as paying for a business degree. So in this particular case, I'm looking at it the same way. And it came about because I have seen in my audience as sorely needed as an antidote to digital malaise and loneliness, which is in person, social time with something that is a light lift. So could I design a game that takes about two minutes to learn, 10 minutes to play, that can help people offset their screen time and all of the things that come with excessive screen time, with family, with friends, that hopefully makes you a little bit smarter. Right.

[Guy Raz]

And I wonder whether some of that came out of your own experience. Like, did you find yourself maybe at certain points in the last decade just being, you know, a slave to screens, to your phone, to whatever was in front of you?

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, for sure. This is basically creating what I want more of in my own life. Certainly for the last, I'd say two, maybe three years, I've had no social media apps on my phone. Because if you think you're going to use discipline to beat teams of computational neuroscientists and statisticians and computer scientists who have billions of dollars at stake in ensuring that they can overcome any type of resistance you have to using their program or platform compulsively, you're just bringing a butter knife to a gunfight. And I think it's uncontroversial. When you look at scientific literature, these technologies, there are costs. So my thought is just offset it, try to offset it a little bit. And I think that in person still counts. We are not evolved for two dimensional screens at 18 inches, 10 hours a day. That is not what we're evolved to handle at all. But I really think that there is a quality of life value to in person. And we see some countervailing trends. So for instance, in New York City, these massive game nights in person have become a big thing. Running clubs, people getting off of dating apps. I think that at the very least, you know, microdosing analog is a good idea.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

With other people.

[Guy Raz]

I agree with you. I mean, it's, we, it's had a, there's a crisis in attention and this, this is relevant for entrepreneurs. Right. Because I think many of the Entrepreneurs I interview on this show also have multiple interests. I mean, their, their passion might be their business or the thing they started. But I think that in many examples, the sort of the underlying foundation for their success has to do with being interested in lots of different things. And I wonder how you find those things.

[Tim Ferriss]

I would say that I just, I throw a lot against the wall. And part of the reason that I do many different things, by the way, some of them have been dead ends and failures. But if you look at, say, the angel investing, it's still going. You look at the podcast, it's still going. And these are things that provide energy and rechar the batteries. So the energy that you might get from playing a game, spending time with two particular friends, you can transfer that to everything else that you do. And that's part of the reason why I think a lot of startup founders in particular could benefit from a little bit of identity diversification. If your entire identity and self worth is wrapped up in your company, there are too many factors outside of your control that can give you a real curveball type of damage. And I just know dozens of founders where if they have a bad quarter or they have a bad year, they feel like a failure. And for that reason, having a few concurrent projects allows you to make progress in other areas to offset lack of progress in another. And then you just, you're like, okay, this is the 1 out of 20 that seems to get me super excited for some reason. Let me just follow that scent trail and see where it goes.

[Guy Raz]

I love that. All right, Tim, let's go ahead and bring in our first caller. Are you ready?

[Tim Ferriss]

I'm ready.

[Guy Raz]

All right. Hello, caller, welcome to the advice line. You are on with Tim Ferriss. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one quick line about your business.

[Lauren Menard]

Hi, guy. Hi, Tim. I'm Lauren Menard. I'm usually based in San Francisco, actually, but I'm in my hometown in Beekman Town, New York right now. I'm the CEO and founder of GOB and we are on a mission to reinvent single use personal care products that disappear after you use them as they should.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so what, what's your product?

[Lauren Menard]

Our first product is a single use foam earplug made entirely out of mycelium.

[Guy Raz]

Which is from mushrooms.

[Lauren Menard]

Yes, it's the root structure of a mushroom.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing. Congratulations. Thanks for calling in. So, Lauren, the products that you have now, they're earplugs, like regular earplugs, except I guess, and I've always wondered this Because I used earplugs. Lots of people, you throw them away, and they're probably mainly plastic. Yours. What, they biodegrade?

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah. So normal foam earplugs, they're all made out of pure petroleum. They're polyurethane or pvc. And they're really bad for you and the planet. And ours are bioengineered material foam that's actually biofabricated. It's grown into its form.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. And how did nobody ever think of this before?

[Lauren Menard]

You know, that's exactly why I started the company, Guy. When I had the idea, I was like, why has no one done this yet?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Tell me how you came up with this. Are you an engineer by background, or tell me a little about what you were doing before.

[Lauren Menard]

So, I'm an industrial designer. I was running a design agency. Thought that was going to be the rest of my life. Working with large Fortune 500 companies, helping them bridge the gap between mass manufacturing and better materials.

[Guy Raz]

And you launched the business when? When did you launch with Gob?

[Lauren Menard]

Just the middle of March this year.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. And tell me a little bit about how you're doing so far. I mean, you're selling mainly to who and what kind of traction are you seeing?

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah, so we sell directly on our website currently, and also in a number of music venues. And that's a bit about, like, why I'm here and asking you a question.

[Guy Raz]

Go ahead, Lach, what's your question?

[Lauren Menard]

So, we're really lucky to be gaining mega traction in the live event space with actually a partnership with a massive company that owns many venues. And at the same time, we're growing a really strong direct to consumer customer base for sleep. So my question, and I'd love both of your advice, is around how to successfully scale two very different verticals simultaneously without losing focus.

[Guy Raz]

All right, awesome questions. I'm going to bring Tim Ferriss in. Tim, questions maybe for Lauren or thoughts about her question?

[Tim Ferriss]

Lauren, if you had to focus on, say, the venues or the dtc.

[Lauren Menard]

Oh, gosh.

[Tim Ferriss]

Which right now, let's just say you had to make a decision. Which way would you go and why?

[Lauren Menard]

Oh, that's really tough because on the sleep side of things, we're getting customer feedback. Like, we're getting a lot of rave reviews. I feel like we're really finding that need and we're meeting that need on the venue side of things, however, you know, we have access to guaranteed eyeballs thousands, sometimes tens of thousands in a night. And basically, we're meeting people in these cultural, emotional moments. And Tim you were mentioning IRL experiences. That's where people really connect with brands. So that's why I'm so torn.

[Tim Ferriss]

Guy, do you mind if I riff for a second?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, please.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay. I would actually be curious to know if you think it could make sense to build up your coffers and generate a nice, healthy, reliable stretch of income with the music venues. And that puts you in a position to experiment with different ways of acquiring customers on the DTC side. And then you can make an informed decision based on at least some math and history which way you want to go. Do you have any, any feelings on where you want to go with this company for yourself? Do you want to be some type of investor backed company or do you want to maintain control and remain private?

[Lauren Menard]

Great question. So we are actually investor backed. We raised a pre seed last year of a million dollars and I'm currently raising our seed on a safe note. So we do have that outside investment. But basically because my dream and my vision of this company is to build it into a new category. And I intend to find these kind of forgotten about personal single use personal care products and adopt biomaterials that can meet the need. Right. And because of the nature of biomaterials, there needs to be a little bit of R and D that requires some funding. So basically that's why I've had to do that thus far. But I intend to build this into a very large company. I want to take on 3M. If you're, if you're. I'm. I'm an ambitious person.

[Tim Ferriss]

I know 3M. Yeah, I can tell. All right. I want to pass it over to guys. I feel like I'm hogging the mic here.

[Guy Raz]

No, no, this is great. Lauren, I'm curious. With aeg, how does that relationship or how will it work? Will they sell the earplugs at their concerts?

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah. So we pay a marketing fee or sponsorship fee to be there for the full year at each venue and we keep 100% of the revenue and we sell both at concessions. So we have these little light boxes near all the cans of drinks and we also have GOB green bright vending machines.

[Guy Raz]

Right. Okay. Are you able to work to make independent deals with other music festivals and. Or are you exclusively tied in with AEG now?

[Lauren Menard]

We are their exclusive hearing protection, but we are not exclusive. We can definitely work with other venues.

[Guy Raz]

One of the things I think, of course, where you are in San Francisco, outside lands one of the biggest festivals where people would be more receptive to really listening and hearing about the story. But the other thing I keep thinking about is airlines where people have time to really look at a package and open it, particularly in first class. When people get these kits in first class and they get a card with all the information about the product in there. And to me, it seems like an opportunity to get this in front of a pretty influential group of people. Have you approached airlines?

[Lauren Menard]

We have, yes. And we're definitely going down that path. It takes a bit of time. But what's interesting is some of our angel investors have invested because they have received those kits in business class and everything is quote unquote sustainable. But they still have the little foam earplugs in the plastic pouch. So that's actually a fun fact. That, that's. That's what actually led quite a few people to investing in my company.

[Guy Raz]

Tim, when you are.

[Tim Ferriss]

So you're planning on raising around in the not too distant future, what is the slide in that deck going to say for how we plan to use all your money, dear investors?

[Lauren Menard]

Well, the deck is together, so I'm pitching. I'm in it. I'm in it. So basically, the funds will be used to set up operations. So we manufacture in the United States and we need to scale up our operations because right now we're building all of our product in a tiny little space in San Francisco and definitely need to move that into a 3 PL on the east coast because that's where a lot of our traction is and we're also using that capital. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't using some of it for marketing. Right?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, sure.

[Lauren Menard]

But I do have a bit of an allergy these days to advertising heavily on social media because it's just like, so competitive and saturated. So I want to use that in smart ways to do IRL experiences actually.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well. And also, I don't know if this is part of your deal, but if you have sponsorship deals, right. Hopefully you have the ability. I don't know if this can be negotiated, but to use that brand on your website as exclusive hearing protection provider to X, I don't know if that's something you can finagle, but using that as part of your marketing for social credibility, for some of the D2C stuff.

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah. But what I'm hearing from you, Tim, is that this ability to capture eyeballs and capture people in real ways in these B2B spaces is maybe more impactful. Gaining trust of consumers. Is that what I'm hearing?

[Tim Ferriss]

I think that that's one way to approach it. I wouldn't say it's more effective writ large, but it may be more effective for your stage of funding, if that makes sense.

[Guy Raz]

Right.

[Tim Ferriss]

Because if you were like, all right, we're going to go full D to C, you're going to need more than one person to do everything that will be required to make good use of investor funding to make that count. As like you said, in a very competitive, certainly online landscape, which is why you lean towards irl. But if you had the right employee or contractors for selling into more, let's just call it venue conglomerates that run multiple locations, you could actually get a lot done with like one full time, one part time or several part time. And I think that's harder to do direct to consumer, if that makes sense.

[Lauren Menard]

It does, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

I, I, I agree. I keep thinking about Monster Energy drinks. Right. And, and what they did and how they scaled so quickly was they made a decision when they were launched. They were going to work with motocross and, and MMA and heavy metal concerts. And so they focused on those three areas, targeted those fans, those kinds of people. They were going after men who loved heavy metal music. And Monster became the number two best selling energy drink very quickly. And it's interesting here because you've got the music venues, but it sounds like the sleep side is really where you see an opportunity. And I wonder whether there's an opportunity to partner with some of these brands that are known for sleep, you know, a certain mattress brand or something connected to sleep, if that's something that you want to move towards.

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah, that's a really great thought. And it's complicated, right, because the use cases that we're attracting are so opposite and so those brand partnerships feel very important and because they already have leverage and they already have an audience which is really nice and good for us. And I will note you mentioned Monster Energy. I am very lucky to have just hired the ex VP of cult indoctrination from Liquid Death. He just joined our team this week and he's going to be going out there and trying to get as many new brand partnerships as possible. So I'll give him that task of looking more into the sleep side just as much as the venue side.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome.

[Tim Ferriss]

Lauren, what is the retail price?

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah, so we sell our smallest SKU which is two pairs for $5, four pairs for 10. And before us, the venue was selling one single pair of foamies for between five to ten dollars.

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh yeah.

[Lauren Menard]

So we're right in there.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, in a really good position.

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

There you go, Lauren. Menard the brand is called God Earth. Congrats. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[Lauren Menard]

Thank you so much. What?

[Guy Raz]

Excited.

[Lauren Menard]

All right. Thank you.

[Tim Ferriss]

Thanks, Lauren.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Thanks. I love that idea.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's a cool idea.

[Guy Raz]

One earplug, like, hack that I used when my kids were little. When they were babies, we would go and we'd get on an airplane, because you get an airplane with a baby and you almost always, oftentimes you'll sit next to somebody, you can just tell they're just like, oh, my God, I gotta sit next to this person with a baby for the next four hours. And what we would do to disarm people is I would go to the people in the row in front and behind and say, hey, I have a baby. There's a chance he's gonna cry. But I brought some earplugs, and if anyone would like some, please take some. And I have the bag, and I'd pass it around, and nobody would ever take the earplugs, but they would always be so nice to us because we just made that gesture. So hat for any new parent.

[Tim Ferriss]

I love that.

[Guy Raz]

Bring a bag of earplugs. Cost you $4 at CVS or 9.95 if you get gob.

[Tim Ferriss]

My buddy had an adjacent strategy which was, anybody want a vodka tonic? I'm buying everybody drinks.

[Guy Raz]

Love it.

[Tim Ferriss]

That's great. That's great.

[Guy Raz]

A little bit more expensive than earplugs.

[Tim Ferriss]

But, yes, not mutually exclusive.

[Guy Raz]

All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. I just got back from vacation with my family, and I stayed at the most incredible Airbnb in Athens with a view of the Parthenon from the bedroom. It was just amazing. And we had such a great time as a family, cooking together and hiking together. And, you know, I remember thinking while I was there, I could have put my house on Airbnb while I was away. Hosting on Airbnb provides you with another stream of income. And who knows, your earnings could help offset the cost of your trip. Your home might be the perfect place for someone else's time away. The personal touches you've added, your favorite kitchen gadgets, the artwork, all of that can make someone else feel right at home. Your home is probably worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Audible has an incredible selection with over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts and Audible originals all in one easy app. Find the genres you love and discover new ones. Explore bestsellers and new releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time. Enjoy Audible anytime while you're doing other things household chores, exercising, while you're on the road, or commuting, you name it. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30 day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.com built you know that person.

[Hellman's Mayo Advertiser]

In your life who just can't stand mayo? Call them traumatized. Call them close minded. We get it. They're stuck in their ways. But here's the thing. They just haven't tried Hellman's Flavored Mayo. We're talking bold flavors that will flip even the biggest skeptics. Spicy mayo that adds the perfect kick to your burger. Garlic aioli that transforms ordinary fries into something extraordinary. Chipotle mayo that turns your basic wrap into a smoky sensation. So to all the mayo haters out there, yes, we're looking at you. It's time to eat your words. Because with mayo this flavorful, any hater is just a mayo lover waiting to be convinced. Hellman's Flavored Mayo. Get ready to eat your words.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is entrepreneur and investor Tim Ferriss and we are taking your calls. So hello. Hello caller.

[Emily Bordner]

Hi, my name is Emily. I own EB&CO, which is a women's accessories brand based out of Kansas City, Missouri. We specialize in sizeless gifting and we have mainly hair accessories and jewelry. We were founded in 2012 and yeah, a Midwest girly.

[Guy Raz]

Nice Emily, welcome to the show. So EB&CO accessories. So like hair bands? Like are you selling rings, earrings, bracelets?

[Emily Bordner]

All of the above and more. Earrings are kind of the big hero product for us. I have a manufacturer in India that I work with that does hand beaded stuff. So we have some customers, headbands, scrunchies, all the fun things that make an outfit look more finished when it's not awesome.

[Guy Raz]

And you have a brick and mortar store in Kansas City?

[Emily Bordner]

I have two brick and mortar stores. I also wholesale at the airport and I rent booths inside other stores as well.

[Guy Raz]

And are most of your sales coming in through the store? Are you also selling online? Where are you seeing most of your revenue come in from?

[Emily Bordner]

Well, last year was a bit of an outlier because Taylor Swift wore my ring. And we went by.

[Guy Raz]

She wore one of your rings.

[Tim Ferriss]

A bit of an outlier.

[Guy Raz]

What was the ring? What was the ring she was wearing?

[Emily Bordner]

Well, it was Travis Kelsey themed, of course. Guy.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily Bordner]

Jersey. And we developed a relationship with Donna and we kept gifting her things that were Travis Kelsey themed that we created.

[Guy Raz]

And Donna's his mom. Right?

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah. My apologies.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, Yeah, I got you. Okay. So you made rings that had a. Like his jersey was on the ring.

[Emily Bordner]

Yep.

[Guy Raz]

Like, like, it's okay. I got you. So Taylor Swift wore one of your rings.

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah. To the AFC championship, which qualified them to the Super Bowl. So if you can imagine my mind being blown and then all of a sudden like that Shopify ding happening. And it was just like, ding, ding, ding.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, now I'm. Now I'm looking at. Now I see it because you have all. You've got these rings with the jerseys. So you have. Taylor Swift wore one of these rings. And I imagine it had an impact on your sales, right?

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah. So my sales went up 50% from 2023 to 2024.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Wow. Amazing.

[Emily Bordner]

So, yeah, we've doubled and it's been bananas. It's been a wild ride, and I hope to give her the biggest bear hug someday.

[Guy Raz]

I bet. All right, so tell us what your. What your question is for us today.

[Emily Bordner]

So my question is, in 2024, my brick and mortar sales went up 37%. My wholesale orders went up over 300%. And so I'm trying to decide, even though the majority of my business, about 90% of my revenue coming in is in that retail, direct to consumer. My wholesale side is what has a much significant more growth. So should I follow what is where the money's coming from, or should I follow what area is growing the most aggressively?

[Guy Raz]

All right, lots to think about. Tim Ferriss, I want to bring you in here. Questions for Emily?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, sure. Well, congrats on a lot of different aspects of the business. You've made it past a lot of places where other companies do not cross the river, so to speak. So congrats on that. Yeah. I don't even know what to say about Taylor Swift. I would say that may be a non recurring phenomenon, so probably don't want to bank on that, but my God. Congratulations. Let me ask a couple of questions related to products. Are the earrings the best selling category of product?

[Emily Bordner]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay. By how much?

[Emily Bordner]

I'd say about 50%.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay. So the earrings are huge in terms of this is coming to your question related to wholesale and say the brick and mortar. So you're talking about revenue. If we're talking about bottom line profit, however you want to define that, what is actually contributing the most at the moment, Is it still the brick and mortar, would you say?

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah, it's the retail side for sure. So D2C definitely gives us more revenue. Last year it accounted for 89% of all revenue and 13% was wholesale. You know, the great thing about wholesale is that, you know, there's not as many expenses. Right. But at the same time it's just not accounting for as much revenue. So that's why I'm having a hard time deciding which area to focus.

[Tim Ferriss]

If you were to basically get the wholesale up to the point that it was generating the same as your current brick and mortar, how would you feel about that versus keeping the wholesale where it is and basically doing the same doubling, but with brick and mortar.

[Emily Bordner]

I mean, wholesale is great because it essentially acts as a shopify order. It's just bigger. And I already have all those systems in place. I have a fulfillment manager, I have an assistant manager. We ship out of our store. So it doesn't take more calories for me to extend execute that. But opening more stores takes a lot more energy. Right. Like I have to approve everything and you know, go go sites and find what feels good, negotiate. You know, wholesale is just another online order which doesn't take any energy from me. So I would love that. And that's one reason why we're putting so much energy into growing that. But it's just hard to prioritize it that much when 90% of the revenue is coming from direct to consumer.

[Guy Raz]

Emily, do you have a sales team or a salesperson who focuses on wholesale?

[Lauren Menard]

It's me.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's you?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, is there a world where you can hire somebody maybe even on a part time basis to only focus on building the wholesale business?

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that has some legs to it for sure. I'm really trying to focus also on like customized pieces too. And that was a new area that we're developing. So I've been really focusing a lot on building those direct to other business like relationships. But that's definitely something that I want to work on.

[Guy Raz]

And have you done trade Shows. Any trade shows?

[Emily Bordner]

I haven't, I haven't, no.

[Guy Raz]

Because that would really be the fastest way for you to get some wholesale deals done. I mean, it sounds like you really want to build the wholesale part of your business out that what you're saying is the potential is greater there, which I agree with. And in some ways it's easier. There are obviously downsides too, but it's easier with what you are doing rather than trying to open up other brick and mortars. Because brick and mortar is expensive. It's challenging. There's a lot of moving parts there and it depends. And relies on foot traffic.

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah, for sure. And it's done really well for me. And so I think that's another thing that's like, man, it's a lot of fun to have a space where people enjoy, you know, talking about your digital detoxing, like getting out of your house, getting off of your computer, walking around a store, trying things on. So I enjoy creating those spaces.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, let me hop in here for a second just to say I don't want to discount that. So if the only thing that mattered for your quality of life were growing the business, then there would be one line of thought and a certain set of advice that we could give. But people start businesses and run businesses for a million different reasons. And not everyone's trying to build the next startup that they sell to Meta or Google or whoever. Right. So if you really enjoy the time in those spaces, I think that number one, they're not mutually exclusive. But you could take the attention on growing brick and mortar and apply it to wholesale for a period of time. You decide for six to 12 months. I'm really going to focus on wholesale. Can still keep the brick and mortar running, but maybe there are places where we can streamline. Maybe there's extra help I can bring in. And I agree with Guy that trade shows could be interesting. Also, you don't necessarily need a booth. If you just have samples of your products, you can meet not only direct wholesale customers, but also potential distributors. That's going to affect your profit margins. So I think it's, relatively speaking, very low cost way of doing a lot of really valuable in prison research.

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah, totally. And you know, when people get their hands on it, they are like, I'm in. And so, yeah, I think I can definitely see your point in that. When people try it on, it's easy.

[Guy Raz]

Guy, I think Tim's idea is great. You know, make a decision that you're going to spend six to 12 months on this thing. On this wholesale side and test it out. And you're trying to position yourself for the day after the Taylor Swift bump ends, but then you won't need it anymore because you've built out the wholesale business.

[Emily Bordner]

Yeah, I think that sounds great. You know, I tried to get some Brain Quicken today and I couldn't get my hands. I was like, what's going to make me a sharper shooter? I couldn't find it.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, it's been a few decades. I sold it, so I'm not sure what they did with it. Maybe it got set out to pasture for all I know.

[Guy Raz]

Emily Bordner. The brand is called EB&CO. Congrats. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[Lauren Menard]

Thank you.

[Emily Bordner]

And I just want to say you both have been so instrumental in inspiring me to make my business. So thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you. Thanks for saying that. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on how I built this label.

[Wix Advertiser]

Your business is one of a kind, so your website should be too. With wix, it's easy, almost too easy to create a website that's perfectly yours. Just tell AI what kind of site you want to build or choose from thousands of templates, change whatever you want whenever you want and get everything you need to start running your business your way. No matter what you sell or what you aspire to be, you can do it all yourself on Wix. Go to wix.com.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with entrepreneur, investor, author and podcaster Tim Ferriss. Tim, you ready to get our next caller on?

[Tim Ferriss]

I am ready. Let's do it.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's bring in our final caller. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with Tim Ferriss. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit of about your business.

[Kimberly Becker]

Hey, Tim and Guy, thank you so much for having me. I'm Kimberly Becker and I'm a clothing designer calling in from Woolwich, Maine. My brand is K. Becker. It's a collection that I've designed with a focus on women over 40 years old, which is me. And this is a group of women who have been looking for high quality clothes for quite a long time. It's an underserved population in the fashion industry.

[Guy Raz]

And you design all the clothing?

[Kimberly Becker]

I do, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Amazing. And they're manufactured overseas in Asia?

[Kimberly Becker]

No, I have a team in New York City and the fabrics are sourced from Japan and Italy mostly. A lot of dead stock fabric. So most of the fabric is quite sustainably sourced and really high quality.

[Guy Raz]

And dead stock means fabric that was that. That one manufacture too much of and. And so was available. Yeah. That's awesome. That and I'm looking at your website now and I'd say be beautiful. I mean, amazing. So did you. You studied as a fashion designer? Is that your background?

[Kimberly Becker]

I'm actually a textile designer by training, which I bring a unique angle to the apparel industry. I worked in almost every cotton mill in America before they all closed.

[Tim Ferriss]

Wow.

[Guy Raz]

And. And it's got a little bit of an. Of an Eileen Fisher kind of vibe to. Going for a little bit.

[Kimberly Becker]

Yeah. So I listened to your interview with.

[Guy Raz]

Her and years ago. Yes.

[Kimberly Becker]

Yeah. She really, I mean, changed the fashion industry for women. Gave women a way to dress in a. That. That sort of Japanese aesthetic is so timeless and so beautiful. But I almost think of myself as her alter ego. We're not trying to make sort of a simple boxy silhouette. We're trying to bring style fashion forward, sort of whatever was on the Paris runways, so that it's not dumbed down, it's not tied timeless, it's not shapeless.

[Guy Raz]

How many years have you been doing this?

[Kimberly Becker]

So I launched in October 2023, so I'm quite new. And from year one to year two, we've doubled our sales. I sell direct to consumer on my website, but really primarily I'm doing this all in person.

[Guy Raz]

So you are the designer and the CEO and the sales rep. It's all you, basically.

[Kimberly Becker]

Basically, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And have you broken past 100,000 in sales? 200,000 in sales?

[Kimberly Becker]

@ the end of this year, I believe we'll be at 75,000 in sales. So we're slow and steady here.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. All right, let's hear your questions and then we'll dive in a bit deeper.

[Kimberly Becker]

Okay. So I want to shift away from an inventory model to a pre order model.

[Guy Raz]

In other words, you're carrying inventory and you want to shift away from that model.

[Kimberly Becker]

Yeah. So being a small, sustainable indie brand, we can't compete with the huge corporations that massively overproduce and then deeply discount and unload at the end of the season. It doesn't work for us financially and it's also just not sustainable. It's not good for the earth to be doing it that way. However, the US population isn't so game to wait 5, 6, 7 weeks for a garment. So the. The idea of pre order is that we actually take the orders and then manufacture what's ordered. So my question is sort of twofold. When do I make that move from an inventory model and how do I shift the mindset from instant gratification to patience, knowing you're going to get something great at the end of the day?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. A lot to think about here. And as you know, we've done a lot of apparel on the show, and for people who are unfamiliar with the industry, you've got to anticipate what somebody's going to order. And the more you make, the higher the chance you're going to lose money because you're making these, all these high quality material, making it in New York. So I understand the challenge. And you're looking at a way to basically show off a design but get taken pre orders. So then you've got the money in hand and then you only order what you need instead of having all this excess inventory.

[Kimberly Becker]

Right, Exactly.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, Tim Ferriss, I want to bring you in here. Lots of things about Kimberly's idea. I mean, what she's doing is awesome, but consumer behavior is consumer behavior.

[Tim Ferriss]

Mm. All right, so I'm looking at the website. I like the website, by the way.

[Kimberly Becker]

Thank you.

[Tim Ferriss]

Very elegantly done. I had a definition question for me because I have sadly no fashion sense, but what does choose the first piece of your capsule closet today mean? What is capsule closet?

[Kimberly Becker]

So in the sustainability world, the idea of a capsule closet is that you can have 10, 15, 18 pieces that you can mix and match. You can wear again and again. That's the idea. I actually have clients that are basically, every time I release a new piece, which I think of as the next piece in the capsule closet, they're buying it. They're like, I'm building my capsule through you.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, Tim, you do have a capsule closet.

[Tim Ferriss]

I do jeans.

[Guy Raz]

And you mix and match.

[Tim Ferriss]

So, couple of thoughts. I would say one company you might want to check out, run by a friend of mine, but it just so happens there might be some parallels. It could be pretty interesting. His name is Sepp, but it's spelled S e P H. Scarrit. Propercloth.com is his company and he makes people wait. And the company has been going for, I want to say 10 years now, but started off with something like 10 different fabrics and one type of shirt in his apartment, and now it's this very successful company. So I would say that there are exceptions to the US Customers not being ready to wait. So I would go out of your way to try to find some of those outliers. The second thing is that in terms of when to make the switch, I would reframe that question. How do I experiment? Because that's a risky switch. And so what I thought of were, say, limited drops where you don't make a full switch, but you test the waters to say, hey, guys, we're running a really limited edition as an experiment. Here's why it's exciting. The race goes to the Swift. We're only accepting this many orders, and then you're going to have to wait four to six weeks. Right. But. But you make it a feature instead of a bug.

[Kimberly Becker]

That's a great idea. And it would go right. It would dovetail beautifully with the short amount, small amounts of fabric. I'm sourcing in those dead stock, like Italian, beautiful Italian fabrics. I can only get 87 yards of or something.

[Tim Ferriss]

So, yeah, like, that's part of the story.

[Guy Raz]

I wonder if the, the term pre order could be like, could you. Could you say made to order? I don't know if that's going to make a difference or move the needle that much. But maybe pre order scares people because they think, oh, it's. It's like a Kickstarter you get.

[Tim Ferriss]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

You know, how many times have you given money to may or may not get shipped, never, ever arrives. But maybe made to order, like, hey, you know, we're going to. You put the. You make this order, and we're going to start working on it right away. It's worth trying Again, it may not move the needle, but it's worth trying. Playing around with the language, that's a great idea.

[Lauren Menard]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Kimberly, I'm, I'm wondering, I mean, are you hoping to move exclusively to this model?

[Kimberly Becker]

So in the long run, yes, it's. It in a way that goes to the whole idea of that. Tim, you talk about the smarter, not harder concept. So you design some. If I design 12 pieces a year and once a month a new piece drops, those orders come in, the manufacturing happens, they all get shipped together, like consolidating the effort. But also then clients know when the next piece is coming. So they're of. They're watching for it. They're waiting for it. That Friday night drop. But that would be the smartest way for me to reduce the amount of effort it takes to sell the product as well.

[Lauren Menard]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. While you're working on the transition, is there a way to keep bestsellers in stock? Right. Or maybe you design sweaters or things that have a Sort of a longer, more sort of timeless lifespan that are always in stock as you transition more and more to the made to order. Because there are things you can do to incentivize, Incentivize people. Free shipping. Maybe they get inducted into a club. Maybe people get a first look at what you're working on. Maybe they get an insight into the sketches you're working on or photographs of you, you know, kind of cutting material or drafting designs. I mean, that could be something that you may want to experiment with too.

[Kimberly Becker]

You know, it's funny you say that, because earlier when Tim was talking about his friends brand and the benefits that come from that sort of exclusivity, I was thinking it's the. The menswear angle on things is so different than the way we saw women's wear. But one of the aspects that I'm trying to embrace is to think more about menswear and how it's pitched because you guys are a much harder sell. You don't buy as much, and so you actually require a little bit more carrying through. And so in the idea of the club idea, which I love calling it, that it never occurred to me to do that. But to send swatches of fabric for a new piece, because the fabric is such a big part, the quality is such a big part of my brand. To send a swatch of fabric and say that you're getting exclusive, like first touch, like first opportunity to see this beautiful gabardine that we're going to be making, the next blazer, and it's coming out in a few weeks. Keep your eye open when it drops. You know, you would be one of the first people to get your hands on it.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, sure, I feel. And, and also coming back to what you said about consolidating effort, I love the idea of shipping swatches, but that seems like it could turn into a hell of a lot of work. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing to do, but you might be able to scratch some of the desire for community where you give them a peek behind the curtain using something that's off the shelf, like patreon or private YouTube, something like that. Like, hey, guys, this is what I'm looking. This is what I'm working on right now. And I'm always looking for low cost, fast experiments that are easy to do. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if it does work, then all of a sudden you've created a new type of loyalty program which has a community where they get to be part of it.

[Kimberly Becker]

It would also give people something to talk about about the brand that's unique right now is everything, it's word of mouth is everything in this brand. We have to get people to the website or it. It's never going to happen.

[Guy Raz]

Well, it's just you got to get that club going, the exclusive club.

[Kimberly Becker]

I love it.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Kimberly, thanks so much for calling in. Kay Becker Design. Good luck.

[Kimberly Becker]

Thank you so much. It was really lovely talking to both of you.

[Tim Ferriss]

Thanks to meet you, Kimberly.

[Guy Raz]

Tim, I'm not surprised. I mean, we've done over a hundred of these episodes now and I'm not surprised that you really are like one of the best you have. Great advice.

[Tim Ferriss]

Thanks, man. It's part of the fun of business for me. Right. It's a puzzle and you can get handed a different Rubik's Cube every day, every week.

[Guy Raz]

Yep. Tim, before I let you go, I, I want to ask you a question that I've asked every returning founder on this show, which is if you go back to when you were kind of building your business, what advice could you have given yourself that would have been helpful?

[Tim Ferriss]

I would say first, there's no one right way to do it and there's no one better finish line than another in the sense that you don't have to build the next venture backed startup, you don't have to have your company bought by XYZ. You don't have to grow at a 200% per year. You might have a business that doesn't grow at all, but it is deeply meaningful to you and you impact people or you love the craft you're involved with. So I would probably say that. And then the second thing I would say is mind your mental health along the way. Right. Get outside, get some sunlight, spend time with your friends. As much as you pay attention to the business health, also pay attention to the mental health and the social health side of things.

[Guy Raz]

I would say I love it. That's great advice. That's Tim Ferriss, entrepreneur, investor, author and podcast host and now the inventor of a new card game, Coyote. Go check it out. It's available pretty much everywhere you can think of. Tim, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

[Tim Ferriss]

What a pleasure. Always nice to spend time with you, guy. Thanks for having me.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you. And by the way, if you haven't heard Tim's original How I Built this episode, please go and check it out. We will put a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Tim Ferriss]

There's a difference between persuading someone to purchase a product and debating with someone who has no intention of ever changing their mind.

[Guy Raz]

Right? Right.

[Tim Ferriss]

I wasn't making that my job, which I think a lot of people do. They make it their job to convince the world. And you shouldn't convince the world. You should convince the people who match most closely to what you're providing. Yeah, so I came to believe really early on that it's not about the number of people who don't get it, it's about the number of people who do get it.

[Guy Raz]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Nour Gill with music composed by Ramtina Rabloui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Karla Estevez, Casey Hunter Herman, Kerry Thompson, Kathryn Cipher, Romel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Wix Advertiser]

How many times have you wished you could be in two places at once? With wix, you practically can. Wix's website builder is packed with powerful AI tools to make running your business online easier. Build a full site just by talking with AI. Get an AI agent to manage your sales and marketing, or work like a 10 person team, even if it's just you. So you don't need superpowers to get everything done, you just need Wix. Try it out for [e-mail].