Advice Line with Vicky Tsai of Tatcha (September 2024)

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz – Episode Summary: "Advice Line with Vicky Tsai of Tatcha"

Podcast Information:

• Title: How I Built This with Guy Raz
• Host: Guy Raz | Wondery
• Episode: Advice Line with Vicky Tsai of Tatcha
• Release Date: February 6, 2025

Overview: In this engaging episode of How I Built This, host Guy Raz sits down with Vicky Tsai, co-founder and former CEO of the renowned skincare brand Tatcha. The episode focuses on the "Advice Line" segment, where budding entrepreneurs call in to seek guidance on their business challenges. Vicky shares her profound insights from her entrepreneurial journey, providing invaluable advice to three inspiring callers: Jessica Liu of Petite Anjou, Brittany Lowe of Beya Bea, and Devin Clymer of Mugsy Bakes.

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1. Vicky Tsai’s Entrepreneurial Journey

Introduction and Background ([00:00] - [09:35]): Guy Raz introduces Vicky Tsai, highlighting her pivotal role in building Tatcha from its inception in 2008 to its status as a multimillion-dollar brand now owned by Unilever. Vicky recounts her transition from a corporate career in finance and Starbucks to founding Tatcha after a life-changing trip to Japan inspired her passion for skincare.

Key Insights:

• Career Pivot: Vicky discusses the moment she decided to leave her corporate job without a safety net, driven by a 50% chance of happiness if she pursued her passion versus a 100% chance of unhappiness if she stayed ([05:31]).

  “I quit my day job without any safety net because I just felt that corporate life was so soul-crushing.” – Vicky Tsai ([05:31])

• Stepping Down and Returning as CEO: In 2018, Vicky stepped down as CEO following private equity investment, which introduced a seasoned leadership team. She later returned in 2021 to lead the company through a challenging period marked by COVID-19 and rising anti-Asian sentiment, ultimately establishing a diverse leadership team ([06:04] - [07:47]).

  “It was an honor to step back in and lead in a different way that I never thought possible.” – Vicky Tsai ([07:47])

• Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: Vicky candidly discusses battling imposter syndrome despite evident success and a proven track record. She emphasizes the importance of self-belief and resilience.

  “I have to become my own hype machine in my head. Every day I have to be like, I can do it.” – Vicky Tsai ([08:21])

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2. Caller 1: Petite Anjou with Jessica Liu ([09:43] - [20:16])

Business Overview: Jessica Liu, founder of Petite Anjou, designs and handcrafts demi-fine and fine jewelry characterized by a playfully sculptural aesthetic. As a self-taught metalsmith transitioning from a corporate legal background, Jessica seeks advice on increasing visibility and brand awareness in a saturated jewelry market.

Challenges:

• High Price Point Products: With prices ranging from $195 to $1600, Jessica finds it challenging to market without relying on samples or influencer gifting.

  “Jewelry is a super saturated industry... it's tricky because I can't give them samples to try in person.” – Jessica Liu ([12:10])

Advice Provided:

• Showcase Craftsmanship: Vicky emphasizes the importance of highlighting the craftsmanship and the story behind each piece to attract clients who value quality and uniqueness.

  “Allowing people to see the work that goes into crafting your products... TikTok is a really great place for that.” – Vicky Tsai ([13:44])

• Inventory Management: Suggests transitioning to a limited production model to manage capital effectively, such as producing only a few pieces per design based on demand.

  “Only make one of each design, show it to people, and then if they want it, then you get... scale from there.” – Vicky Tsai ([13:44])

• Leveraging Existing Clients as Advocates: Instead of broad sampling, turning passionate customers into brand ambassadors can organically increase word-of-mouth recommendations.

  “Talking to your best clients and asking how you can serve them more to become your ambassadors.” – Vicky Tsai ([14:35])

Jessica’s Reflections: Jessica acknowledges the value of building a community and enhancing storytelling on her platforms, expressing excitement about implementing the suggestions.

“I do try to showcase the craftsmanship on my Instagram page. But you're right, I do think I could do more of that.” – Jessica Liu ([15:35])

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3. Caller 2: Beya Bea with Brittany Lowe ([23:59] - [35:58])

Business Overview: Brittany Lowe, founder and CEO of Beya Bea, offers premium vegan skincare targeting intimate concerns such as sweat odor and body blemishes. Starting her entrepreneurial journey at 16 with Bello Cosmetics, Brittany pivoted to Beya Bea amid the pandemic to focus on femcare.

Challenges:

• Navigating a Saturated Market: With a saturated beauty industry, Brittany seeks strategies to break through and land major retailers like Sephora and QVC while building brand awareness.

  “If people don't know about your brand and don't understand your mission, it's not going to succeed in store.” – Vicky Tsai ([29:34])

Advice Provided:

• Focus on Building a Strong Brand and Client Base: Vicky advises Brittany to concentrate on creating a compelling brand story and deepening client relationships before pursuing retailer partnerships.

  “Focus on your client and make sure she understands why she needs this, why to believe in you, and why you care so much about her.” – Vicky Tsai ([29:34])

• Collaborative Partnerships: Suggests partnering with complementary brands to co-market and share audiences, thereby expanding reach without significant financial outlay.

  “Partner with a complementary clothing brand or bag brand to share lists and conduct joint trunk shows.” – Vicky Tsai ([33:40])

• Creative Marketing Strategies: Encourages leveraging social media with authentic storytelling and potentially humorous, relatable content to resonate with the target audience.

  “Build the storytelling in a really fun, relatable way.” – Guy Raz ([35:29])

Brittany’s Reflections: Brittany appreciates the advice, recognizing the importance of aligning storytelling with her brand values and maintaining focus on empowering women.

“I love that. It's very valuable insight for me to really implement.” – Brittany Lowe ([30:01])

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4. Caller 3: Mugsy Bakes with Devin Clymer ([38:39] - [51:56])

Business Overview: Devin Clymer, co-founder of Mugsy Bakes, introduces a line of single-serve, gluten-free mug cake mixes that offer convenience without the mess. Targeting modern millennials, Mugsy Bakes aims to provide a quick and enjoyable dessert experience.

Challenges:

• Generating Buzz and Building Community: As a pre-launch brand with minimal following, Devin seeks effective strategies to create buzz and cultivate a supportive community around her product.

  “How to generate buzz and more importantly, build a community when we have essentially, you know, no following or a very little following.” – Devin Clymer ([42:45])

Advice Provided:

• Local Engagement and Demonstrations: Vicky recommends focusing on local markets first by showcasing the product in real-time settings like farmers' markets, allowing potential customers to see the product in action.

  “Start really showing people how this works… have a microwave oven at a farmer's market and just make these.” – Vicky Tsai ([47:58])

• Social Media Content: Encourages creating engaging and relatable content on platforms like TikTok, including storytelling and humorous videos that highlight the product's convenience and unique features.

  “Create lighthearted, funny videos that resonate and have the potential to go viral.” – Guy Raz ([32:11])

• Strategic Partnerships and Packaging Innovations: Suggests innovating packaging, such as reusable mugs or themed kits for special occasions, and exploring co-marketing opportunities with dating apps or other relevant brands.

  “Partner with platforms like Tinder or Bumble and create themed kits for occasions.” – Vicky Tsai ([49:38])

Devin’s Reflections: Devin expresses excitement about implementing the creative marketing strategies and acknowledges the importance of community building.

“These are wonderful recommendations, so thank you for that.” – Devin Clymer ([50:16])

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5. Final Thoughts and Reflections

Vicky Tsai’s Closing Advice ([52:03] - [53:12]): As the episode concludes, Vicky shares heartfelt advice for aspiring entrepreneurs based on her experiences.

“The entrepreneurial journey is so thrilling but so intensely difficult. Don't make it harder on yourself by carrying around self doubt.” – Vicky Tsai ([52:25])

Inspirational Quote: Vicky emphasizes the importance of decisiveness and confidence in the entrepreneurial path.

“Let go of the idea of can I do it? And you just say I will do it.” – Vicky Tsai ([53:12])

Guy Raz’s Final Remarks ([53:38] - [54:04]): Guy wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to check out Vicky's original How I Built This episode and highlights a poignant moment from Vicky’s journey when she overcame financial struggles to build her high-end clientele.

“We ran out of money over and over... I couldn’t afford a salary, my partner couldn’t afford a salary... we had this really, really incredible high end clientele.” – Vicky Tsai ([53:38])

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Key Takeaways:

• Authentic Storytelling: Building a strong, relatable brand story is crucial for standing out in saturated markets.
• Community Building: Engaging with and nurturing a loyal customer base can drive organic growth and brand advocacy.
• Strategic Partnerships: Collaborating with complementary brands and leveraging local markets can enhance visibility and reach.
• Confidence Over Doubt: Overcoming self-doubt and maintaining unwavering belief in one’s vision are essential for entrepreneurial success.
• Adaptability: Pivoting strategies based on market demands and maintaining flexibility can help navigate challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• “I quit my day job without any safety net because I just felt that corporate life was so soul-crushing.” – Vicky Tsai ([05:31])
• “Let go of the idea of can I do it? And you just say I will do it.” – Vicky Tsai ([53:12])

Conclusion: This episode of How I Built This offers a treasure trove of insights for entrepreneurs at various stages of their journey. Vicky Tsai's experiences with Tatcha provide a compelling blueprint for overcoming adversity, building a passionate community, and maintaining the integrity of a brand’s vision. Combined with the real-world challenges and solutions presented by the callers, listeners gain a multifaceted understanding of what it takes to build and sustain iconic brands.

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Listen to the full episode on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform to dive deeper into these inspiring entrepreneurial stories.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts Nerds when it comes to finding the best financial products, have you ever wished someone would do the heavy lifting for you? Take all that research off your plate? I sure have, and with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, that wish has come true. The nerds already did the work for you, reviewing over 1,100 doll financial products like credit cards, savings accounts, and more to bring you only the best of the best. Check out the 2025 Best of Awards today at NerdWallet.com awards While you're away, your home could be an Airbnb Just like the incredible home I stayed in in Mexico City just a couple weeks ago. It was absolutely beautiful and the perfect base for exploring the city. Maybe you're planning a trip for for a long holiday weekend. And while you're away, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra income toward the trip. Find out how much your place is [e-mail] host how I built this is supported by Altra Running. Altra makes performance running shoes that are insanely comfortable with a roomy toe box and zero to low drop. This helps keep your feet in a more natural position so you can move how you were designed to perfect to the road, trail or gym. You could wear them for miles and forget they're there. What I love most about the shoes is the wide toe box. My toes have room to spread really the way nature designed them, and I've seen significant improvement in my running gait. I also have a pair of trail runners that are super comfortable, super lightweight, but also really strong on rocky terrain. Stay out there with Altra Tri Ultra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free shipping at altrarunning.com that's a L T R a running running.com hey everyone, it's Guy here. So we're taking a quick break this week while we work on new episodes for you. So we want to share one of our favorites from the archives, our Device line Conversation with Vicky Tsai of Tatcha. And we'll be back with brand new episodes starting next week. I'll be joined by some amazing guests including Travis Bourzma from Dutch Bros Coffee and Lyndon Cormack from Herschel Supply. And I can't wait for you to hear these episodes. They're super fun and thank you to all of you who have already called and we have so many calls. So we will try to get to most of you over time and we're super excited to hear what you guys are building. So enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the advice line on How I Built this Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a 1 minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo@hibt wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for [e-mail] and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Vicky Tsai. She's the co founder of Tatcha. It's a skincare company rooted in Japanese beauty rituals. Vicky, welcome back to How I Built this.

[Vicky Tsai]

Thank you. It's an honor.

[Guy Raz]

It's so great having you back. So today we are going to talk to founders who are taking, you know, a lot of them are taking some big career moves to bring their business ideas to life. And we thought you would be the perfect person to give them advice because you, you started Tatcha after making this really big pivot in your career. You worked in corporate finance, you worked for Starbucks, but you kind of became disillusioned with that world after a while. Not Starbucks, but just kind of corporate life. It burned you out and you're getting dermatitis and you took a trip to Japan and you met a geisha and you started using skincare products that they had and it just kind of changed your life and inspired you to build this company. And this was back in 2008 and you struggled for some time to build Tatcha. But of course now it is a huge multimillion dollar company now owned by Unilever. Such an awesome story. We are going to put a link to it in, in the show description. But Vicki, before we get to our callers, I was hoping to ask you a couple questions. At what point did you feel like you could jump fully into this because you went to business school, you got the brass ring jobs, you were on the path to sort of corporate success, and you came from a family that really emphasized success and achievement. I remember you talking about this, and at what point did you feel like, I don't. It doesn't matter. I just can't do this anymore. I've got to do this other thing.

[Vicky Tsai]

I didn't have an idea and then decided to quit my day job. I quit my day job without any safety net because I was just. I felt that corporate life was so soul crushing. And I just thought, if I continue doing this, there's a 100% chance I'll be unhappy. If I try something new, there's a 50% chance I'll be happy. And so I left with no plan and no idea.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Vicky Tsai]

I didn't think I was going to start a company. I just knew I couldn't keep doing what I was doing. And then I stumbled upon Tatia.

[Guy Raz]

That's awesome. One of the things I remembered after our interview in 2020 is that at the time, you had let you kind of step down as CEO, and then you actually came back and to lead Tatya as CEO in 2021. A little bit like Howard Schultz, who's been back and forth as CEO three times. Can you talk a little bit about the decision, the original decision to step down and then the decision to come back?

[Vicky Tsai]

Yeah, I stepped down after we brought in private equity in 2018.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Vicky Tsai]

Because they recommended that we bring in a seasoned leadership team. And it really triggered this imposter syndrome in me that I had carried for my career. And I thought, I don't want to be the kind of founder that ends up limiting the potential of their business because of their own leadership limitations. So I stepped down and I welcomed with open arms a new leadership team. And then a couple years later, Unilever asked me to come back. So 2021, in the midst of COVID and in the midst of Aapi hate, we also did a turnaround. It was an honor to be able to step back in. And it gave me the opportunity to lead in a different way that I never thought possible. And then at the end of that year, I actually put in place a new leadership team, including a new CEO. It was the first diverse leadership team in beauty at any scale. And so they lead the company. Now I'm no longer CEO, but I'm proud and honored to continue to support them and be an advisor to the company.

[Guy Raz]

It's an awesome story because I remember we talked about it when you were on the show, and you trusted these investors, and they were basically doing what they thought was in the best interest of the company. But for you. And I think a lot of people feel this, and I do, too. Obviously. I think women tend to experience this more than men, but I think lots of founders experience this feeling of like, okay, now we're really big. Maybe I'm not the right person to do this. And it's a very natural feeling to have. But you sort of said to yourself, wait a minute. No, I can do this.

[Vicky Tsai]

Yeah. Yeah. It forced me to be curious about where those ideas came from in the first place. Why had I believed that I didn't have what it took? Because I had the experience and I had the track record. The numbers were there, but I think I had internalized a lot of feedback over time. And when you're an entrepreneur, as you know, you get so many no's and so. So many people doubting you that you have to become your own hype machine in your head. And every day you have to be like, I can do it. I can do it. But some part for me crept in, and that little bit of leakage eventually was enough to overflow my sense of self worth and self confidence. And then I had to watch the company disintegrate for two years from my perspective. And that was what caused me to come back and say, I don't know why I doubted myself like that, but it's time to get to work. There's not really time for doubt right now. That's a bit of a luxury I don't have. So let's. Let's finish what we started. And it was a joy. It was a joy.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Yeah. Your Steve Jobs moment, you know, coming back to lead the company, or Howard Schultz moment. Vicki, what do you say we take our. Go ahead and take our first call?

[Vicky Tsai]

I can't wait.

[Guy Raz]

All right, let's do it. Hello, caller number one. Please introduce yourself. Tell us where you are calling from and a little bit about your business.

[Jessica Liu]

Hi, Guy. Hi, Vicki.

[Devin Clymer]

Thank you so much for having me here. Hello, my name is Jessica Liu. I'm calling from Newport Beach, California, and I'm the founder of Petite Anjou. I design and handcraft demi fine and fine jewelry with a playfully sculptural aesthetic.

[Guy Raz]

Amazing. Okay, and first of all, tell us a little bit about the business. Do you buy the jewelry from somewhere else? Do you make it? Do you Tell me about it?

[Devin Clymer]

No, everything is handcrafted by myself. I'm A self taught metalsmith, I tend to gravitate towards making organic and flowy designs with a bit of texture. But I also really struggle with sensitive skin. I know, Vicky, you can relate. And so I made a vow to only work in precious metals. I don't use brass in my studio, so most of my pieces come in sterling silver or 18 karat gold vermeil. And I'm in the process of rolling out a fine jewelry collection as well.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so you are a metalsmith. Which is awesome. I mean. Cause, you know, I think you think of metalsmithing, I think of like the 19th century, like a guy hammering away at a horseshoe. Do you have an art background, A design background? Is that where this comes from?

[Devin Clymer]

No, completely different. I actually come from the corporate world. I used to be an attorney, but I always had a creative streak and I've been listening to the show for ages. I was always so inspired by the female founders in particular. And so I wanted to create my own thing. And I read the story about this woman who made a jewelry business curating designs. And I thought I could do that, but I couldn't find designs that resonated with me. So I decided I was gonna make my own what I couldn't find out there. And so I taught myself. I watched YouTube videos, I bought all the books. And pretty much after my kids would go down for the night, I would stay up late at night teaching myself.

[Guy Raz]

I'm like kind of blown away. I mean, you were a lawyer who taught yourself on YouTube. And now I'm looking at your website, Petit Anjou, and these are really beautiful, complex designs. I mean, congrats on the business. And what's your question for me and Vicky today?

[Devin Clymer]

So as you can probably imagine, jewelry is a super saturated industry. And so I'm wondering how I can increase visibility and brand awareness, especially coming as a brand that has higher price point products where it's not always feasible to give out samples or, you know, do gifting to influencers or editors as part of a marketing strategy.

[Guy Raz]

And roughly what, what's the price ranges of your products?

[Devin Clymer]

They start at around $195 and go up to about $1600.

[Vicky Tsai]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

Because you're dealing with gold and silver. Okay, fair enough. All right, Vicki, let's see what we can do here. Jessica's got. She makes everything. They're beautiful products, handmade, high quality, but it's challenging. Right. This is all direct to consumer Jessica. Right. You're not selling in stores. So first of all, any thoughts, Vicky, about her Approach. What do you think?

[Vicky Tsai]

I love what you do. I love the intention and the craftsmanship and the quality. I think your brand is exactly the kind of brand that people are looking for these days. They're sick of stuff that just falls off a factory line somewhere else in the world and that doesn't have a heart and a soul and a purpose for being. And I think people don't buy products these days. They join brands. If I were in your shoes, a couple ideas. One is I would let people into the craftsmanship piece of your work. You're not competing with someone who's buying stock jewelry, putting their brand name on it and selling it on their website. You are looking for a client that cares about craftsmanship and wants to know their maker. So I don't know if you're doing this already, but really allowing people to see the work that goes into crafting your products, from the design to the making. TikTok is a really great place for that. The other thing is inventory. Are each one. Are each of your pieces one of a kind or do you sort of make a little inventory of each?

[Devin Clymer]

I do have an inventory of each. So there is. I do maintain stock of each design.

[Vicky Tsai]

Got it. So to just manage your overall capital outlay, one potential is to only make one of each design, show it to people, and then if they want it, then they get part of the drop and say, I'll make 10. So if you want on and you eventually scale from there. So just sort of shifting the product development cycle will help your capital cycle. And then in terms of gifting, I actually have the same problem. Our things are handmade in Japan, and so when we, when we send people four pieces, it costs about the same, I'm guessing, as one of your pieces. And so you can sample yourself out of business. We didn't do broad sampling the way that most beauty brands do, and we also did not do heavy celebrity sampling the way that most beauty brands do. Instead, we thought about how to turn our best clients into advocates and ambassadors for us because we found that they really loved gifting our products. And so I don't know if you have a really passionate group of clients already, but talking to them and asking them about how you can serve them more and then you know what they're looking for that might be something that's giftable and let them become the people who, who, you know, get the word out for you.

[Devin Clymer]

I love that because something I've really grown to appreciate as a small business owner is the sense of community and people really do buy into brands. That's what they're interested in and being part of a community and part of the experience. And so I do try to showcase the craftsmanship on my Instagram page. But you're right, I do think that I could do more of that, maybe even on the website. That's actually a great idea to showcase that more.

[Vicky Tsai]

I think it's all TikTok.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, yeah. If you go to the about page on your website, it's awesome. You've got these photos of you in the shop and with a soldering iron or whatever it is, and they basically melting down metal. It's so cool. And I think about, do you make videos of you making jewelry?

[Devin Clymer]

I do, to the best of my ability with my iPhone. It's not great cinematography, but I do try to capture the process because I think people love to see where their pieces are coming from. You know, like you said, Vicki, it's not off of a conveyor belt. You know, each piece is handcrafted and I think people want to see their piece being made right in front of them.

[Guy Raz]

How have you tried to build awareness so far?

[Devin Clymer]

So actually, when I first started, I did hire a PR agency. I used them for a few months before quickly realizing that it wasn't going to be economically viable as a startup. So I do my own PR at this point. I reach out to editors. I'm part of an affiliate link program. And so I've landed a few editorial mentions and TV spots. But it's like I mentioned, it's tricky because I can't give them samples to try in person. So it's kind of like, here's my jewelry. It's great. Just trust me on it. Also, I've been trying to do more in person shows. I love live events because it lets me meet my audience and see what they gravitate towards. It's almost like market research for me too. But the trick with that, the tricky part has been that a lot of my local events tend to be like craft shows that are at a lower price point. And so I'm not sure if my audience is really there shopping for high end jewelry. So it's kind of been a balancing act, navigating that.

[Guy Raz]

Jessica, did you hear? We did an episode a few years back with M.M. laFleur, with Sarah LaFleur, who founded this apparel brand. And essentially the idea in her mind, because Sarah came from, you know, sort of a business background, was to make clothing, you know, sort of a wardrobe, a uniform, so women wouldn't have to like spend hours every morning trying to figure out what to wear. But it was clothing designed for professional women. It's an amazing brand. I found out about it, like I often do for my wife, who would go and buy their clothing. And I feel like there's something to that idea with what you're doing. And, I mean, given your background as a lawyer and what you are creating, I wonder whether there's a way to kind of tap into this sort of networks of professional women who are going to the office. Because the pieces that you create are very timeless and very. They're just very classic. And so, I don't know. Have you explored that at all?

[Jessica Liu]

Yeah.

[Devin Clymer]

No, you're absolutely right. I think my pieces are timeless and elegant, and my audience is looking for something like that, but they want something that's unique and different. You know, my audience is not interested in blending in with everyone else. And like you mentioned, they are. They're very professional, they're accomplished, they're strong women. And so they are looking for something that's going to make a statement that they can wear every day, be comfortable in. So that is something that is, you know, that I would love to pursue further, kind of promoting that angle of something that you can live in every day.

[Vicky Tsai]

Guy makes a really great point. You, because of your craftsmanship, you're not looking for 100,000 clients yet you want, like, a thousand great ones. And so being clear on who your bullseye is both demographically and psychographically will help you stay super, super focused. I think you're right. Trunk shows will be better for you than craft shows. I wonder whether, to Guy's point, whether you could partner with a complimentary clothing brand or bag brand where you can help each other, where your ethos is the same, and then you can sort of share lists and email lists with each other, do trunk shows together.

[Devin Clymer]

I love that. And that's actually something that's been suggested to me before the collaborations, because you share each other's audiences as well, and that's something I'm looking forward to pursuing for sure.

[Guy Raz]

Congrats on what you're building, Jessica. It's so cool. I mean, jumping out of the corporate world as a lawyer and going into something totally creative is really courageous. And I really. I can't wait to see what you do with this.

[Vicky Tsai]

I agree.

[Devin Clymer]

Thank you so much.

[Vicky Tsai]

I'll be buying everything and sharing with my friends, so keep going, Keep going.

[Devin Clymer]

I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I'm big fans of both of you.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks, Jessica.

[Vicky Tsai]

Hi.

[Guy Raz]

I can't believe that she didn't know how to do this until 2020. I mean, I remember during COVID because I remember during that time just thinking, there are going to be so many businesses that come out of this moment because people are just like, okay, this is the sign from the gods. Like, this is the time for me to just do the thing that I was too scared to do.

[Vicky Tsai]

Mm. I love talented people. Incredible.

[Guy Raz]

Stay with us because after the break we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. I've stayed in Airbnbs that are mind blowing, including a beautiful old stone barn in Italy surrounded by olive trees and vineyards where our whole family could gather and cook and just spend time together. Maybe there's a big tournament in your city and lots of fans will be visiting. You could actually Airbnb your spare room and make some extra money while people are in town. Maybe you're planning a ski getaway this winter. While you're away, you could Airbnb your entire home and make some extra money toward the trip. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host like a lot of people, your New Year's resolution may be to drink less alcohol. Luckily, dry doesn't have to be boring, thanks to Athletic Brewing Company's fun and flavorful non alcoholic beers. Athletic has a huge variety from IPAs, extra dark sours, Hazies, Belgian style whites and an Irish style red. No matter what you're looking for in a great non alcoholic brew, the answer is always Athletic. Athletics brews are perfect for any occasion plus zero hangover the next day. My personal favorite is upside down golden. There's nothing dry about Athletic Brewing Co. Non alcoholic brews. Give it a try and head to athleticbrewing.combilt to find it near you. That's athleticbrewing.comb u I L T to grab some fun and flavorful brews near you. Athletic Brewing Co. Fit for all near Beer Are you inspired by stories on how I built this? Take the next step in your entrepreneurial journey by enrolling in a graduate program at Babson College, the alma mater of Jamie Siminoff, founder of Ring David Heath, co founder of Bombas, and Mike Salguero, founder of Butcherbox, whose unique Stories we've told right here on how I built this. Babson equips you with the skills, network and hands on experience to turn your problem solving ideas into reality. Join a global network of entrepreneurial leaders at the school ranked number one in entrepreneurship for 31 years by US News and World Report and number two best college in the United States by the Wall Street Journal. Learn more about Babson's full time and part time graduate programs at Babson. Edu Gradschool. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking calls with Vicki Tsai. So Vicki, let's get right into it and take another call.

[Vicky Tsai]

Let's do it.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

[Brittany Lowe]

Hi Vicki. Hi Guy. Thank you so much for having me. So excited to meet you. And I'm calling in from New York City right now. I'm the founder and CEO of Beya Bea's premium vegan skincare that addresses intimate concerns. So thanks. Sweat odor body blemishes that affect our confidence.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. Okay. And tell us a little bit more about how you started this.

[Brittany Lowe]

So I actually wrote in my second grade journal that one day I was.

[Guy Raz]

Going to second grade.

[Brittany Lowe]

Second grade, I wrote in my journal that I was going to have a beauty company one day. And at 16 years old, I asked my grandma for a investment of I think $500, which was a lot of money. And I started Belo Cosmetics, which was a mascara brand. And I very quickly learned how hard it is to start a beauty business.

[Guy Raz]

Wait, when did you start Bello Cosmetics? How old were you?

[Brittany Lowe]

I was 16 because I didn't have business courses in high school. So I was like, I think I love business, but I have no idea. Like will I actually like it.

[Guy Raz]

That's a great name. P Loke Mascara. Your name, it's awesome. And did you make mascara? Did you sell it?

[Brittany Lowe]

I did. So it's hilarious to look at my emails with this contract manufacturer. I was like, I would love to meet with you, I would love to share my vision with you. And he took me so seriously. I think I ordered, I forget what the minimum was. I think it was 2500 mascaras. It had the logo on it and it was amazing. But we still probably have like 10 cases of mascaras at my parents house to this day.

[Guy Raz]

I can't believe you were 16. You just. Okay, so obviously you were on a mission from a young age to start a beauty brand. And how did you get, I mean, tell me a little bit about Beyah. How did that idea come about?

[Brittany Lowe]

So I ended up graduating from Babson College and I had a full time offer with L'Oreal. But again, I wrote my second grade journal that I was going to have my own company. And so I was like, wait a minute, I got to do my own thing. But where's the white space in the product world of beauty? Because it's so saturated and I honestly couldn't come up with a good enough idea. And that's when drybar and a lot of these beauty services were popping up. And so I was like, if I don't know where the white space is, the next best thing is creating a service company where I work with real women to understand their beauty pain points so then I could build this product business. So I ended up turning down L'Oreal and starting my first company, Beautyni. And so what was fascinating is we really do specialize in weddings and events. And so they would come in and be like, listen, I'm getting married in August. I sweat like crazy. Is my makeup going to melt off? Or like, when I sweat, I smell I'm going to be hugging my guests, let alone, let's talk about my wedding night.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, what do you do?

[Brittany Lowe]

And I was like, wait, that's kind of. I've never heard these questions. I guess it's a beauty question. But I honestly have these insecurities of like smelling and being around people. And I just thought that was a me thing. And so that's what I was like, wait a minute. Well, fast forward pandemic. There were no weddings, there were no vents, so there was no business for Butini. So rather than just sitting around, I realized it was my perfect opportunity to start Beya. And our whole philosophy is like taking moments for yourself. So whether it's like taking deep breaths and just rehydrating your face and body or you know, going into the bathroom and refreshing so you feel a little bit more confident. That's like the whole ethos of the brand.

[Guy Raz]

That's so awesome. I'm, I'm thinking about how much I'm smell, I smell right now because I took a run and before this interview and I'm so happy that I'm in a separate studio from you because I would need Bea right now.

[Brittany Lowe]

Yeah, I wish I could teleport them to you right now.

[Guy Raz]

And what's your question for us today?

[Brittany Lowe]

So my question is if you were building a skincare brand. Say Tatcha in 2024, what would be like the top three things that you would be focusing on right now? Knowing that you want to be on qvc, you want to land a retailer like Sephora, there's so many things to do as a founder. What would be your top three areas of focus?

[Guy Raz]

All right, Vicki. Yeah. Let's start with you.

[Vicky Tsai]

Well, I really love that you're focusing on femcare because this is a really hot new area. So when you go to a category that's growing, you get to sort of ride the wave up and, and I, I get tapped a lot for advice or investment in growing femcare brands. So this is of the moment. So good job on timing. So to your question about how to break through these days, we were talking in the last one about how people don't buy products now they join brands. So your point of difference will not just be your products and your formulary promise, but your intentions. Why do you exist? When you break through, particularly in social media, then those retailers come to you. So you can pitch Sephora all day long, but they get pitched all day long. What you really want is for them to come to you and they're going to come to you when you break through with your clients. So I would almost say don't worry about the retailers, build it and they will come. Just focus on your client and make sure she understands why she needs this why to believe in you and why you care so much about her.

[Brittany Lowe]

Oh, that's really great advice. I love that. And honestly we've had a few dream retailer like reach out and it's interesting because you can get into a retailer and that's great but that's when the hard work I found out happens, right? Like if people don't know about your brand and don't understand your mission, it's not going to succeed in store. So I think that's like, that's very valuable insight for me to really implement.

[Guy Raz]

Brittany, can you talk a little bit about your sales right now, where you guys are at?

[Brittany Lowe]

So we're about, we should be ending this year about a million. And so we've had some great beauty subscription boxes that have, we've gotten a big deal with that. We were named like a top 25 indie beauty from CEW, which is a beauty professional organization. So still small but I'm self funding so just like Vicky, just really being very mindful because my life mission is to empower women to feel confident in their own skin and I want to be able to figure out those pain points and that storytelling that resonates with people before we think about investment and whatnot.

[Guy Raz]

And how many people do you have working with you now?

[Brittany Lowe]

So it's myself and one full time employee, one part time, and then we have a handful of freelancer.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, right. You know, one of the cool things about this product is, as you say, it's an opportunity to show people how to use it. I think of two brands we've had on the show in the past. One is Dollar Shave Club, one is Liquid Death. And these brands, what they did early on when they had no money, no budgets, was to put like a thousand, two thousand, three thousand bucks into making a very low budget, low quality, but very funny video that would go, that would eventually they'd go viral. You can imagine, I can imagine you or somebody putting something like that together around. I mean, you've got, you know, these wipes, for example, to refresh wipes or you know, I see body and intimacy serum. Like there are lots of fun things you could do with, with the products you have. And so I wonder whether, whether you've, you've thought about doing something like that, Trying to create like a low budget video that's fun and funny in that sort of dollar Shave Club way.

[Brittany Lowe]

Would you say, like, just do one where you're really storytelling and thinking it through versus let's make a TikTok and see what sticks?

[Guy Raz]

I try both, but I would try to make them funny if you can. Because you're talking about your story about talking to people, getting ready for weddings and you're thinking, wait, I'd be freaked out about if I smell, not if my makeup was running, you know, And I feel like smell and scent is so funny. And it's. We all smell. Human beings smell. Like there's no way around it. There's no human that does not smell. I feel like there's a lot of fun around that idea.

[Brittany Lowe]

I love that. And I think, well, my personal need for these wipes was because I was dating in New York City and you're at a hot, sweaty bar and then maybe, you know, you meet someone and then I would be so self conscious about my smell. So I do think I love that idea of like storyboarding something that's really funny and hopefully relatable to be able to resonate in like a lighthearted way, but hopefully get some virality behind it.

[Vicky Tsai]

I love Guy's idea and the fact that this started from your dating moments. It would be fun to partner with like a Tinder or I Don't know. What do people use these days? Bumble coffee meets bagel. I don't know any of these anymore. You could put together like a little kit called like in case it goes well and just sort of do a co marketing event to try to get into that kind of audience. But I would try to. First of all, a million dollars on that small of a team is amazing. Congratulations. The first million's the hardest by far. I thought the first million was harder than the first hundred million.

[Brittany Lowe]

Really? No way.

[Vicky Tsai]

Yeah, I really do. I really, really do. But then when it comes to a retailer, they'll throw anything against the wall. But if you don't climb rank very quickly, you're out. And then, then it's like a stain, it's like a scarlet letter A, you know, then you can't raise money, then you can't get other. So I would really try to get the fire in the buzz going before you go to a retailer because there's also fixed costs capex that goes with going into retail. And in an ideal world you're on fire. They come to you, they take a few items, they put them on an indie wall and they fly off the shelf. Then the party starts.

[Brittany Lowe]

And would you say that QVC is considered a retailer or would you say that's also part of that brand awareness build? Because you get to storytell.

[Vicky Tsai]

QVC is interesting because they are, if I remember correctly, they're a consignment model and you have to build a lot of inventory to, to test it out. And if it doesn't sell through, you own it, but you have to repack it at a cost of four to five dollars per kit in order to even be able to resell it. You also have to look at different retailers, have different customer bases with different return profiles. And so if on a successful run, 50% of your stuff gets returned and that's stuff that you trash. You have to look at your margins. So I would say some retailers, they're great for awareness when you can handle that level of risk.

[Brittany Lowe]

And as a self funded business that's probably not what we can afford to do at this point. So I agree with you that maybe like I think Guy, what you're saying is like build up like the storytelling in a really fun, relatable way.

[Guy Raz]

And you are the perfect person to do this. You came from the second grade.

[Vicky Tsai]

Yeah, I agree with Guy. We just need you all over TikTok.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, it's awesome. It's awesome. The brand is called Bea Brittany Lowe. Congrats Good luck. We're going to be cheering you on and we'll be following up.

[Brittany Lowe]

Thank you so much for your advice and I'll be manifesting Bea being next to Tatcha and Sephora one day.

[Vicky Tsai]

Love it.

[Brittany Lowe]

So thank you so much.

[Vicky Tsai]

Love it.

[Guy Raz]

Thank you. Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. And now a message from our sponsor, vital proteins. As we age, sometimes we can start to produce less collagen, which is the most abundant protein in our bodies. That can lead to fine lines, saggy skin and your bones and joints not moving like they used to. That's where vital proteins comes in. Their collagen peptides are a supplement that helps support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. Vital proteins is the number one brand of collagen peptides in the U.S. they're the experts. In fact, as I get older, I know it's so much more important to take care of my body. And I've been using vital proteins, collagen peptides because I want to look, feel and move my best. Try vital proteins get 20% off by going to www.vitalproteins.com and entering promo code built at checkout. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own. Plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Vicky Tsai. She's the co founder and former CEO of skincare brand Tatcha Vicki. We are down to our last caller now and hopefully, hopefully, I mean it's, you know, I was thinking and I said this, which is during the pandemic, I really, I was like there are going to be so many businesses that come out of this and now I'm thinking with advice line like who? You know we might be talking to some of these people on our show, like we interviewed you in the next couple years, like there might be a billion dollar business here.

[Vicky Tsai]

I hope there is because These are great entrepreneurs with great ideas.

[Guy Raz]

Hope so too. All right, let's take our last caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. You are on with me and Vicky Tsai. Hello. Please introduce yourself, tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

[Jessica Liu]

Hi Ty. Hi Vicki. Thank you so so much for having me. Hello, my name is Devin Clymer. I am calling in from Cleveland, Ohio and I am the co founder of Mugsy Bakes. We make single serve gluten free mug cake mixes designed to spark dessert joy. No oven required.

[Guy Raz]

No oven. Oh, so not even a microwave oven?

[Jessica Liu]

A microwave oven? No, like real oven, right?

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And these are, this is like mug cakes. Right. You see these things on Instagram stuff, but this is specifically like a packet, like a hot cocoa type packet that you just pour into a mug and add water and stick it in the microwave.

[Jessica Liu]

Exactly right. So we like to say that making a mugsy is as easy as 1, 2, 3. You literally just add in the wet ingredients, pour in the mugsy dry ingredients, mix it up and pop it in the microwave and you're done.

[Guy Raz]

And then you get a cake and a mug.

[Jessica Liu]

Exactly right. It's a beautiful mug. Uh huh. And dairy free too actually.

[Guy Raz]

And dairy free. Wow. Yeah. Tell me about how this started. Is this, were you, are you in the food business?

[Jessica Liu]

No, not at all. And neither is my co founder. We are actually both healthcare providers and professionals. I'm a clinical speech pathologist and my co founder Nina is an occupational therapist. And that's actually how we met is working in a hospital system together. And we watched as a lot of our patients struggled with chronic illness and often due to a broken food trauma system. And so food was just very much so a part of our day in and day out. And ultimately, you know, it is that, that inspired us to create our better for you but super, you know, vibrant celebratory baking mix brand.

[Guy Raz]

How did you guys decide to come up with it? Like tell me the story. Were you sitting down in like the, the cafeteria at the, at the whatever, the hospital or wherever you guys work? Like let's make mug cakes.

[Jessica Liu]

You know what, at the time when we, you know, kind of went in on this together, we both had our own private practices and so we would do a lot of co working together. We would meet at coffee shops and talk and I am a very avid listener of how I built this and I just, I truly am. And really, you know, just after listening to, you know, so many of the episodes and I relate to you, Vicky, as Well, you know, just with making a pivot and doing something different and feeling like I am doing something that is really adding to my happiness is something I had just been thinking about. So I have been making mud cake mixes myself for years, and now that I have children too, they've become a staple in our household. And I just got sick of pulling all the ingredients and leaving my kitchen a mess for something that's so small, like, why should this be so complicated and messy? And so I started talking to Nina about this idea and she's like, oh my gosh, I love this. And the rest is history. We just jumped in together.

[Guy Raz]

And just to clarify, do you sell them? It just comes in a box, like a hot cocoa packet where you would with individual envelopes inside.

[Jessica Liu]

So we do stand up pouches. They are single serve stand up pouches. So think of almost like a pancake mix pouch, but smaller. And so it stands up on its own. And we use a recyclable one as well.

[Guy Raz]

And do you use sugar or sugar substitutes?

[Jessica Liu]

So we use organic sugars, organic cane and coconut sugar. And, you know, really priding ourselves on, you know, the high quality ingredients that we are using is really important to us for sure. Especially, you know, given our healthcare background.

[Guy Raz]

Cool. All right, and what's your question for us today?

[Jessica Liu]

Yes, so my question is we are currently pre launch. You know, we're kind of soft launching our minimum viable product at the moment locally and markets and shops in Cleveland. In Cleveland, correct. Yes. And we will soon be launching direct to consumer. We are very close to having our finalized packaging ready. So my question is, what would be your top tip for a new brand looking to generate buzz and more importantly, build a community when we have essentially, you know, no following or a very little following.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Vicky, your thoughts?

[Vicky Tsai]

I love how everybody who's been on has such a pure and uplifting intention and their products and their brands are expressions of how they'd like to make the world a little bit more beautiful, a little bit more confident, a little bit more joyful. I think we need so many more businesses like this. So. Yes. What do you think the use case is for your customers to want to purchase this? There's the health component, but like there's something to do with your kids. Is it something use at parties? Is it a snack? What is it?

[Jessica Liu]

Yes. So really it's the convenience factor that we are hypothesizing will be a big draw and it's meant to just serve as that simple pleasure, that moment of joy after a long day I enjoy mine after I've gotten my kids to bed while my husband is doing the dishes or cleaning up the toys. But certainly, too, we envision kids, perhaps with a gluten allergy, going to a birthday party and being able to have something that they can eat as well. So it can certainly serve multiple purposes. And also just for us being allied health professionals, we think this would be a wonderful product as well for senior citizens who maybe can no longer cook like they used to. But really, it's the convenience, the ease factor to it that we think is a big part of our value proposition.

[Vicky Tsai]

For when you absolutely need cake, which I love. I feel like I need cake every day.

[Jessica Liu]

Yes, yes.

[Guy Raz]

Do you remember? I think it still exists. It must still exist. I just haven't made it in so long. But one of my great pleasures as a child was when my parents would come home with a Jiffy Pop pan and you would take the thing off and put it on the stovetop and shake it, and then that big foil would just blow up and then you'd rip it open, you'd have popcorn. Did you ever do that?

[Jessica Liu]

Yes. And it was so fun. I remember it being such a fun thing to do with my parents and my siblings. And we're going after the same type of thing with Mugsy.

[Guy Raz]

But you know where I'm going with this now, which is, is there a world where there's like a microwave safe, I don't know, maybe disposable or recyclable mug that you could sell it in, so then you just pop it in and it's like the Jiffy Pop of cakes.

[Jessica Liu]

Yes, I love that. And that actually is something we toyed with at the very beginning. But I love that you brought that up because that does certainly add to the experience.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. It can even be a reusable mug. Maybe you just do like a limited series and you sell them at gift shops and the mug says something like, dad is the best. I don't know. I'm just trying to think of a lame sort of mug thing, but, you know, everybody. So. So that could be kind of a cool, cool thing to try.

[Jessica Liu]

I love.

[Guy Raz]

Who do you imagine. I think this is another version of the question Vicki asked, which is, who do you imagine using this? Like, you mentioned senior citizens, but, like, at the end of the day, there is going to be a core type of user. It's going to be kids, it's going to be, you know, sort of women between the ages of 20 and 30. There's going to be a Certain type of user. So in your mind, who do you envision buying this product?

[Jessica Liu]

Yes, yes. So we are really envisioning it being perfect for that modern millennial consumer, mostly female women with really bustling personal professional lives who are really going after that convenience factor, whether they're preparing it for their kids or even for themselves. You know, because she's tired, she, you know, has a lot on her plate and at the end of the day doesn't even want to be mixing up a cake out of a, you know, traditional box mix. So that's really our target that we're going after.

[Guy Raz]

Vicki, I know that Devin's question was about how to build buzz, I think, and I'd be curious to get your take on this. I think that she's got a. Instead of thinking building buzz sort of nationally, she's really gotta build buzz in Cleveland first. And I feel like this is the perfect opportunity to start really showing people how this works. Literally have a microwave oven at a farmer's market and just make these and just sort of start that way. What do you think?

[Vicky Tsai]

Yeah, I'm getting my head around it because I've never made cake in a mug before, but I do love cake. So food operates on very low margins and it's low price point. And so you in time the goal, unless you wanted to stay a small business, and I shouldn't assume. Do you have dreams for this to become a billion dollar business or is it a jewel of a business that you want to create?

[Jessica Liu]

Yes, we have big dreams. You know, we really want to take this as big as we can. Yeah.

[Vicky Tsai]

So your end goal is grocery distribution. And then what you have to do is reverse engineer a strategy to get invited into grocery distribution. I think convenience is definitely one of your main selling points, but I think your point of difference is probably additionally the form factor and the health piece of it, because you're both healthcare workers. So I think, Guy, you're right. This is one of those situations where you throw spaghetti at the wall. Whether it's food fairs and farmers markets for local buzz, as well as social media content that shows your intention and your thoughtfulness behind the ingredients on your own website, that's where you'd want to build the business first. And these are lightweight and easy to ship. So you might even want to create like a gifting program online. I'm going back to Guy's idea about the mugs and my original question about occasions. If you have birthday kits or.

[Jessica Liu]

I love that.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Vicky Tsai]

I almost want you to do something like really Unexpected, too. Like, sorry you had a bad day at work, sorry your boss sucks, sorry about your celiac. You know, like, things that will kind of. Sorry he dumped you.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, I love that. Or like, make your own mug cake, birthday party packet where everybody gets their own thing and they can make their own cake. And then you'd have, like, a squeezy little tube of frosting that you could frost it with.

[Jessica Liu]

I love this. And that is just getting my mind buzzing. And those are wonderful recommendations, so thank you for that.

[Guy Raz]

Do you know what I've become obsessed with on social media? For some reason, I get fed these videos of, like, bread in an oven baking. Basically, you're looking at inside of an oven, like, through the glass, and you just see the bread, like, it goes in, you know, the dough, and then you just see it grow, grow, grow into this beautiful baguette or croissant. And I can just watch those all day with, like, beautiful, you know, like the music from Amelie behind it or something. You know, it's just. And so I can imagine just like the sound of a hand ripping open the packet, pouring it in the mug, putting in the. Whatever it is, is it water and butter? I don't know. And then putting in the microwave and then just watching it grow into this, like, popover cake.

[Jessica Liu]

Yes. I love that. And I think that's definitely an avenue we will go down. I know, you know, myself and Nina included, we're ready to get more comfortable on social media because truthfully, that's an area that I don't have a ton of experience in. But I love that idea. Getting creative with our videos and really showing not only what this product is, but how you could use it, how you can make it fun and different and unique to you.

[Guy Raz]

So thank you, Devin Clymer. The brand is called Mugsy Bakes. Good luck. Congrats on the launch.

[Jessica Liu]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Vicky Tsai]

Now I want some Mugsy now. I feel like I need a cake and a mug right now. Thank you. Yes.

[Jessica Liu]

Thank you both so much. Thank you, Vicky. Thank you, guy. This was truly amazing. Thank you.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, you can make cake in a mug. You didn't know.

[Vicky Tsai]

I feel like I haven't even lived.

[Guy Raz]

Vicki, before I let you go, can you. I'm curious now. With everything in the rearview mirror and having built what you built and knowing what you know, what do you think that. What do you wish you had known in 2008 when you were starting your business that you think might have been helpful for you to know or to.

[Vicky Tsai]

Be aware of in 2008 2008. I'm trying to put myself back in that spot. Yeah, if I could do anything over again, if I could sit down with my younger self, I would say the entrepreneurial journey is so thrilling but so intensely difficult. Don't make it harder on yourself by carrying around self doubt. It's like carrying around a backpack full of boulders. It just makes everything harder and it's unnecessary. And it gets a lot more fun if you let go of the idea of can I do it? And you just say I will do it.

[Guy Raz]

Awesome. Vicky. Thank you so much.

[Vicky Tsai]

Thank you Guy. I can't wait to see you and have a cake in a mug.

[Guy Raz]

We will.

[Vicky Tsai]

I'll be wearing fabulous jewelry and I'll be smelling good.

[Guy Raz]

That's Vicky Tsai, co founder and former CEO of Tatcha. And by the way, if you haven't heard Vicki's original How I Built this episode, you have to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

[Vicky Tsai]

We ran out of money over and over and over again. I couldn't afford a salary, my partner couldn't afford a salary, I couldn't afford rent anymore and my parents had bought a place near the airport at that point and they let me move into there and we had this really, really incredible high end clientele and I was working on my mom's garage.

[Guy Raz]

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for [e-mail] each week. It's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice [e-mail] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Katharine Cypher with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Karla Estevez, Chris Messini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coates, J.C. howard, Kerri Thompson Neva Grant and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey Imagine getting a message from your favorite brand that feels like it was created just for you. Chances are they're using Attentive, the SMS and email marketing platform designed to help brands build and connect with their ideal audience. Attentive helps marketers create unique messages for every subscriber, transforming the consumer shopping experience and maximizing marketing performance. But how does it work? Attentive's AI learns what subscribers actually want based on their real time interactions with your brand. That means it customizes the content, tone and timing of every message so they always resonate. Ready to take customers on a journey created just for them? Visit attentive.com built to learn more.