Exclusive Update: The Chef Who Shocked the Culinary World and Why He’s Changing Course Again—Daniel Humm of Eleven Madison Park

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz: Exclusive Update on Daniel Humm and Eleven Madison Park

Episode Release Date: August 13, 2025

In this special episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, host Guy Raz delves into the transformative journey of Daniel Humm, the renowned chef and owner of Eleven Madison Park (EMP) in New York City. Known for revolutionizing the fine dining scene, Humm's bold decisions have continually pushed the boundaries of culinary excellence. This episode provides an in-depth update on EMP's latest strategic pivot, exploring the motivations, challenges, and future aspirations behind Humm's choices.

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1. Introduction and Background

Guy Raz opens the episode by contextualizing Daniel Humm's previous landmark decision in 2021 to transition Eleven Madison Park to a fully plant-based restaurant. This move was unprecedented, especially for a restaurant that had previously been lauded as the world's greatest and held three Michelin stars consistently since 2012.

Notable Quote:

Daniel Humm [02:58]: "After becoming the best restaurant in the world and having had three Michelin stars for a decade, we reached the number one spot in the world. And I started to feel a little restless. Creatively..."

2. Transition to a Plant-Based Menu

Humm and his team embarked on an ambitious journey to eliminate all animal products from EMP's menu. This shift required a complete overhaul of their culinary practices, from sourcing new ingredients to mastering plant-based techniques. They introduced innovative elements like tanburi, a cypress seed from Japan that mimics the texture and flavor of caviar, and redefined classic preparations using only plant-derived components.

Notable Quote:

Daniel Humm [08:20]: "There could not have been anything more exciting. Also, I think there's so much magic in the cooking. It's almost like alchemy..."

3. Challenges and Industry Backlash

The transition was not without its hurdles. EMP faced significant backlash both within the culinary industry and among its loyal patrons. Critics viewed the move as politically motivated, while some diners felt alienated, perceiving the restaurant as catering exclusively to plant-based eaters. Additionally, operational costs surged due to the need for specialized staff and more intricate preparation processes.

Notable Quote:

Guy Raz [11:09]: "Our decision created a global debate that far transcended food."

4. Achieving Michelin Recognition

Despite the controversies, Eleven Madison Park's commitment to excellence did not waver. The restaurant achieved a historic milestone by becoming the first purely plant-based establishment to earn three Michelin stars. This accolade underscored EMP's influence and set a new standard in fine dining, demonstrating that luxury cuisine could be both innovative and sustainable.

Notable Quote:

Unknown Guest [15:35]: "What would happen?"

Daniel Humm [15:37]: "I was very nervous because I knew how crucial it was and how much of a milestone this would be in the world of cuisine..."

5. Financial Sustainability Concerns

While EMP continued to receive stellar reviews and maintain full bookings, the business model faced financial strains. The high costs associated with plant-based sourcing, coupled with a reduced average spend per diner, made sustaining profitability challenging. The reliance on affluent patrons for expensive wine sales further complicated financial stability, especially in a city with exorbitant operating costs like New York.

Notable Quote:

Unknown Guest [16:52]: "We definitely saw a dip in revenue because the audience we're catering to became a lot smaller."

6. Strategic Pivot: Reintroducing Animal Products

In response to these challenges, Daniel Humm announced a strategic pivot to reintroduce select animal products into EMP's menu starting in October. This decision aimed to balance the restaurant's creative integrity with broader market appeal. The reintroduction focuses on specific items like fish and shellfish, ensuring that the core plant-based philosophy remains intact while offering options that cater to diverse preferences.

Notable Quote:

Unknown Guest [20:03]: "I understand now that for most dining at a plant-based restaurant is more of a life choice than a choice of cuisine."

7. Reflections on Leadership and Evolution

Humm candidly discusses the internal struggles and self-doubt that accompanied this monumental decision. Leading a team of over 200 people, many of whom joined EMP specifically for its plant-based ethos, presented significant leadership challenges. However, Humm emphasizes the importance of continuous evolution and adaptability, asserting that staying static would ultimately hinder the restaurant's relevance and success.

Notable Quote:

Unknown Guest [34:08]: "I'm full of self doubt, especially with where we are going next..."

8. The Future of Fine Dining

Humm offers a broader perspective on the fine dining industry's sustainability, emphasizing the role of chefs and restaurateurs in shaping the future of food. He likens fine dining to cultural institutions like ballet or classical music, underscoring its importance in setting trends and educating both chefs and patrons. Humm believes that fine dining will continue to thrive by balancing tradition with innovation.

Notable Quote:

Unknown Guest [39:30]: "This cannot be in the hands of politics. This has to be in the hands of chefs and farmers and the people actually on the ground."

9. Vision for the Future

Looking ahead, Daniel Humm envisions Eleven Madison Park as a perpetually evolving entity that remains inclusive and innovative. By reintroducing select animal products, EMP aims to attract a wider audience while maintaining its commitment to sustainability and culinary excellence. Humm aspires for the restaurant to remain a beacon of fine dining for decades to come, fostering a culture of creativity and inclusivity.

Notable Quote:

Unknown Guest [42:00]: "It is something I want to see fully through. And in a weird way, I feel like for the first time ever, the restaurant feels complete after 20 years being there."

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Conclusion

This episode of How I Built This Lab offers a profound look into the dynamic and often challenging world of high-end culinary entrepreneurship. Daniel Humm's journey with Eleven Madison Park highlights the delicate balance between artistic innovation and business sustainability. His willingness to adapt and pivot in response to both internal and external pressures serves as a testament to his resilience and visionary leadership in the ever-evolving landscape of fine dining.

For those interested in the full breadth of Daniel Humm's journey, including the original 2021 interview, additional resources and links are available in the show notes.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

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[Daniel Humm]

Ooh.

[Unknown Guest]

Whatcha eating?

[Guy Raz]

The new banana split cookie from ampm.

[Daniel Humm]

All freshly baked with real butter with.

[Guy Raz]

Banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors.

[Unknown Guest]

Ah, that sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?

[Guy Raz]

Oh, I'm sorry but no, but you can't split the banana split.

[Unknown Guest]

Not even a little.

[Daniel Humm]

Not even a crumb.

[Guy Raz]

What if. No, please. Mine.

[Unknown Guest]

When it's too legit to split. That's cravinience. Get a 3 pack for 99 cents.

[Guy Raz]

With our app AM PM too much good stuff plus tax where applicable. Prices and participation may vary.

[Unknown Guest]

Terms and conditions apply.

[Guy Raz]

Hey everyone. Welcome to How I Built this Lab.

[Daniel Humm]

I'm Guy Raz.

[Guy Raz]

So normally in this slot we have an episode of the How I Built this advice line, which will be back next week. But today we've got an update to a story we told a few years back and we'll put a link to the original interview in the show notes, which is well worth hearing. Anyway, you might remember the interview with Daniel Humm, the legendary chef at eleven Madison park in New York City in that conversation, he announced on this show in 2021 that he would no longer use any animal products at the restaurant.

[Unknown Guest]

I think we all been able to take a step back and sort of re evaluate and in a way maybe be a little bit more thoughtful also about the impact to our surroundings and the way we have sourced our food, the way we're consuming our food, the way we eat meat. It is not sustainable.

[Guy Raz]

That announcement rocked the world of fine dining. Why? Well, because eleven Madison park is one of the most iconic and celebrated restaurants in the world. In 2017, it was actually named the world's greatest restaurant. It's been awarded three Michelin stars every year since 2012. And when Daniel made that announcement, many people thought he was crazy. Up until that point, Michelin, which as you probably know is the most influential force in fine dining, had never awarded three stars to a purely vegan restaurant. Eleven Madison park changed that and became the first ever purely plant based spot to win the coveted three star designation. Now, to put this in perspective, it's estimated that there are 15 million restaurants in the world, but fewer than 160 have three Michelin stars. In the US there are just 16. And EMP, as the restaurant is known as, seem to be blazing an important trail. Because even though these fine dining restaurants account for just a small fraction of food establishments, they have outsized influence on the industry. Sort of like how you might see a video of a Paris fashion show and wonder who wears that, only to see a version of it in H and M a year later. EMP was famous for its lavender glazed duck and butter poached lobster. It served the finest foie gras and caviar. But overnight, Daniel and his entire culinary team had to essentially relearn how to cook at the highest level without demi glace and butter and cream or anything that came from an animal. They visited Japan and discovered all kinds of new ingredients. Things like tanburi, which is a seed from a cypress tree found mainly in Japan that tastes and feels like caviar. They had to learn how to make pastries and laminated breads using only plant based ingredients. But the move didn't come without some controversy. Plenty of people in the industry perceived the move as political, and some longtime patrons felt excluded. Like the restaurant was just for plant based eaters. Some of that pushback was hard for Daniel. He insists he never even imagined people would see the move as anything other than a creative shift. And of course, it did have an impact on the restaurant's bottom line. New York is a very Expensive place to run a business. And it turns out working with just plants is also more expensive because it requires more staff and more work to turn the food into something spectacular, which is what EMP managed to do night after night. It's still hard to get a table there. But to make the economics work, you need high rollers, patrons who are also drinking expensive bottles of Burgundy and champagne. And those patrons, especially in New York, almost always want some meat as well. So after a lot of thinking and reimagining, Daniel Humm and his team decided to evolve once again. Vegetables will still be front and center. 90% of the menu will stay plant based. But a few non plant based items will come back. Daniel wanted to return to the show to explain his thinking and why. Going plant based has four fundamentally changed everything about his cooking forever. But first, I asked him to go back to the reasons why he went plant based in the first place.

[Unknown Guest]

After becoming the best restaurant in the world and having had three Michelin stars for a decade, we reached the number one spot in the world. And I started to feel a little restless. Creatively. I felt like I was sort of going in circles. When we created our dishes, it felt we were repeating a lot. We did the lobster with leeks, and then we did the lobster with butternut squash, and then we did. But it was sort of like as a creative, it didn't quite feel like groundbreaking. What should have been the vay mountaintop felt a bit empty. And the hardest part was from that moment on, I no longer knew what was my North Star. And so after the pandemic, I wanted to build the restaurant and our cuisine without using any animal products.

[Daniel Humm]

I want to just break this down for a minute. First of all, here you are in your early 40s, having mastered cooking, the art of cooking, right? And all of a sudden, I'm assuming you did not know how to make something that tastes like butter without cream, how to do these things. You literally had to relearn how to be a chef.

[Unknown Guest]

To me, that there could not have been anything more exciting. Also, I think there's so much magic in the cooking. It's almost like alchemy, when you can transform a carrot into a luxury experience. I think it was really important to have such boundaries, to really exclude any animal products, to push this creativity the way we have to find the answer of how to laminate a bread, how to make, you know, a butter with sunflower oil, or how to make a ricotta with almond milk, how to make.

[Daniel Humm]

Caviar out of a tree, out from A tree?

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[Daniel Humm]

And it. I've tried it. Tamburi.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah. It's from the cypress plant.

[Daniel Humm]

Cypress? Yeah.

[Unknown Guest]

And it is. Yeah. I've learned tamburi, which is also referred as land caviar, but it's something that is used in Japan mostly in the Sen Buddhist cuisine. And so we discovered so much things.

[Daniel Humm]

You didn't even know that existed.

[Unknown Guest]

That's right. That's right. I'm celebrating my 20 year anniversary at 11 Madison park, beginning of next year. And so a quarter of that time, the restaurant has been fully plant based. And our cooking has completely changed.

[Daniel Humm]

Everything about the way you think about food and make food has changed.

[Unknown Guest]

We will never revert back to butter glazes, chicken stock, the demi glace. It's fundamentally changed because we have learned in some ways to make things even better. Like we started our own farm upstate, which we would have never done if we would have not been so focused on the vegetables.

[Daniel Humm]

One of the things that I think is important to point out is that I don't believe you were trying to send a message to the world saying, don't eat meat, stop eating meat, stop eating animal products, Restaurants should stop serving it. That was not in any way what you were saying. You wanted to use the vehicle, the restaurant, as a way to encourage people to think differently about plants. That fair to say, I mean, you were not condemning the consumption of meat?

[Unknown Guest]

I mean, in this case, I believe my naivety was an asset.

[Daniel Humm]

Your naivete to make the decision to go plant based?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, because if I would have known all the things that I know today, I don't think I would have had the courage to go down this path. Our decision created a global debate that far transcended food. And this is something that we were not prepared for. For a lot of people, going to a plant based restaurant isn't a choice of cuisine, but it's like a life's choice. And with this change, some of our guests felt excluded. They had the feeling of not being.

[Daniel Humm]

Welcome anymore, that it was just for vegans.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Humm]

It's not like, oh, let's have Korean food tonight, or let's have, let's go to a steakhouse or let's do plant based tonight. And that's what you thought this was gonna be?

[Guy Raz]

Absolutely.

[Daniel Humm]

Oh, it's just gonna be another type of cuisine.

[Unknown Guest]

Absolutely.

[Daniel Humm]

Let's get French food tonight. Let's go to a Persian. No. The thing about plant based or vegan is that most people think of it as a lifestyle change shift, that you're either that or you're not.

[Unknown Guest]

It was almost like a political view. And I never intended to be part of a political debate. We just wanted to cook vegetables because it's better for the planet and we love the creativity that it brings.

[Daniel Humm]

The restaurant, you know, got some outstanding reviews, also had some really harsh reviews. That was tough on you and the team. But were you surprised at some of the backlash? Some of the backlash from people who were genuinely angry at you and at this decision?

[Unknown Guest]

Well, in the early days, the experience inside the wall of the restaurant didn't match sort of the incoming criticism. And I think that to us was confusing. And also we felt so empowered and satisfied by the experience and by the learning that we just continued. And then slowly things started to turn around. I remember sort of early on, the cattle rancher from Texas and he sent me this long letter and the letter was sort of like he decided for his 40th birth to have dinner at 11 Madison Park, a fully plant based restaurant as a cattle rancher. And he said his wife was confused about that decision. But then he said as the meal goes on and he's eating all different types of asparagus, the morels and the spring onions, he's realizing that he is having one of the best meals of his life, if not the best meal of his life. And so that conversation really interests me because now we're really having a conversation. So I think all this was very motivating for me because I do believe a restaurant has the power to make an impact in the world. And this is definitely something that continues to be our North Star. And when we were invited to the Mishla ceremony in 2022, I was unsure.

[Daniel Humm]

If you would retain your three stars.

[Unknown Guest]

What would happen?

[Daniel Humm]

Were you nervous that night?

[Unknown Guest]

I was very nervous because I knew how crucial it was and how much of a milestone this would be in the world of cuisine. There's never been a restaurant that received three Michelin stars with a plant based cuisine. So Mishla created fine dining. The rules of fine dining, they're the guardians of this very classical way of cooking. And that night when it was announced that we are the first restaurant to receive three Michelin stars, it did feel like we're walking on water.

[Daniel Humm]

Do you. I mean, from a business perspective, right? There's a lot of pressure. Cause you aren't just the chef, but you're the owner and you manage a team of like 200 people. I think it's a huge number of people who depend on you and the restaurant for their livelihoods. Were there Moments over the last four years where, I don't know, you felt, I don't know, not up to the task. Did you have self doubt?

[Unknown Guest]

We definitely saw a dip in revenue because the audience we're catering to became a lot smaller. And we've learned that cooking plant based is more also dependent on the seasons. In the spring and summer, it's an easier sell. In the fall and the winter, it's harder for people to wrap their head around it. It's selling less wine and wine.

[Daniel Humm]

You need to sell a lot of wine in order to sustain a restaurant. I mean, you're in Manhattan, the rent is high, salaries are high, it's a big staff, it's a luxury experience. You serve 100 people a night, Right. And even if you're fully sold out every night for months and months and months and months, which you have been, it's not enough to sustain when you.

[Unknown Guest]

Don'T sell the wine, when you're not.

[Daniel Humm]

Selling the wine, and when you don't.

[Unknown Guest]

Sell your private events, which are like events for 30 or 40 people. It's very hard to have people buy into an event when you don't have a signature roast.

[Daniel Humm]

And does only using plants require more labor, higher labor costs?

[Unknown Guest]

Our labor costs went up by like 20%. Like it requires more cooks to bring that magic to the carrots and to the onions. So yeah, it's gotten harder from a business perspective and our guests at times have put us in this box. Our goal at the end of the day is to welcome people around the table and everyone is welcome around the table. That is the highest purpose of a restaurant. If it's what's on the plate or what's not on the plate keeps people from coming, then that would be devastating and we would be missing our mark. And when we listen to all the feedback, we believe that it is time for another change.

[Guy Raz]

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Daniel explains for the first time his next big step at 11 Madison Park. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz. You're listening to a special episode of How I Built this Lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this Lab.

[Daniel Humm]

I'm Guy Raz.

[Guy Raz]

So four years after shocking the world of fine dining by turning his three star Michelin restaurant into a 100% plant based operation, Daniel Humm says it's time for another important pivot.

[Unknown Guest]

I understand now that for most dining at a plant based restaurant is more of a life choice than a choice of cuisine. I feel incredibly lucky that I've had the privilege to see this creative endeavor through for almost five years. But I've made the decision now that it's time for another change. And starting in October, we will reintegrate a few animal products such as fish or shellfish. And yes, we will bring our duck back. Our honey lavender glazed duck. We've always listened to the feedback and what we've heard is that to be the most hospitable version of our restaurant today is to offer a choice. Our use of animal products will be deliberate with the base of our cuisine staying plant based and offering individual experiences to some of our guests preferences so that we can welcome everyone around the table, the whole family.

[Daniel Humm]

So you came to a decision to reintroduce some meat, some animal products. Right. And.

[Guy Raz]

Was it hard for you to.

[Daniel Humm]

Come to that decision or did you feel like, you know, I tried this thing and it's changed what I do, how I think, how I cook. And this is the next chapter of that. Because inevitably, you know, this people who hear about this and find out about this, there are going to be some people who say, oh, it failed. This experiment failed.

[Unknown Guest]

It was a process, of course, to get to this point. Because when we made this decision, we dove all in hard and we had to. You have to really firmly believe of what you're doing and where you're going. Otherwise it feels dis genuine. And that was very much where I was at in the pandemic. I wanted to create the first plant based restaurant that receives three Michelin stars. And the voices around me were like, this is not going to work. This will fail.

[Daniel Humm]

People who were your friends and supporters.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, people had a lot of doubts. We created a new language, we created a new cuisine. We wrote an entire new book called the Plant Based Chapter. It's fundamentally different, but we have over 200 people working in a restaurant that serves 100 people. The Martians are razor thin. And it requires for us to be full all the time. It's the only way you can maintain this level and this team. And so, yeah, but it is possible. We just got to continue to also have that hat on. It's not just a creative endeavor.

[Guy Raz]

It's a business.

[Unknown Guest]

It's a business. And I think if we want to continue to be part of the conversation, it has to be sustainable as a business.

[Daniel Humm]

Do you think that, like, I think the analogy would be like if. Cause a lot of people ask me, you know, they'll sort of say, well, why are these sort of Michelin three star restaurants? So a lot of people Talk about them. Very few people dine at them. You know, every. Many more people eat at a red sauce Italian place, right?

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[Daniel Humm]

But the reason they're important is because it's sort of like, why is the Runway show in public? Like, we're not all wearing that, but we will wear things that are inspired by that in a year from now. Like, you will find them in main street shops. And it's similar with, like, fine dining restaurants. They sort of set the tone that trickles down to food. I mean, inevitably, Right. There are going to be all kinds of reactions, and that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but there will be people who say, well, you know, it doesn't work. It can't work. You can't have that. You can't sustain a restaurant that level.

[Guy Raz]

What do you say?

[Daniel Humm]

What's your response to that?

[Unknown Guest]

For me, it took a long time to come to this next step of evolution. And part of it was because we put so much this, like, flag in the ground and people saying, it's not gonna work. And you don't want to be like, some of those voices. Maybe they had a point. Part of what they're saying, there was some truth to it.

[Daniel Humm]

You feel that way?

[Unknown Guest]

I feel that it's such a big change. It's a change in our industry. It was a change to our suppliers. So I think there's a lot of fear that comes up with that. I don't know all the reasons why people said this will not work, but if it was for the reasons that it wasn't inclusive, then I think they definitely had a point. But to me, it very much is a success because our restaurant today is fundamentally different. And now we're incorporating a few animal products where we're going to be very deliberate about what these are. And we studied a lot the Mediterranean diet, and we traveled with our team to Greece and to Italy. And, you know, that diet is mostly plant based.

[Daniel Humm]

Just a little bit of meat.

[Unknown Guest]

It's a little bit of fish and a little bit of meat for special occasions. It's also what Michael Pollan has been preaching for mainly plants or eat little and mostly plants.

[Daniel Humm]

Right. And you mentioned Greece and Italy. And, like, was that trip sort of. Did that start to turn the gears in your head again about the next sort of iteration of what you want to do and how you want to present food?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, I feel like I started to realize that to create real change, we can't be as dogmatic. And when we looked at ancient cultures, which none of them have a lot of meat in their diet. But it's also not no meat.

[Daniel Humm]

Right.

[Unknown Guest]

I think it's important that where we're heading is informed by sort of ancient practices, but then also modern techniques, and then we're finding sort of a place in the middle.

[Daniel Humm]

So moving forward, when somebody, I mean, the idea is at emp, somebody is going to dine there who would not have gone there before because they didn't feel like it was for them. And they can have some duck if they want, and there might be some cheese, but you want them to walk out having been exposed to preparation of vegetables that they would not have eaten anywhere else. They're gonna walk out of that experience saying, wow, this was like the best thing I had was the carrot cooked 15 hours at low temperature, whatever it might be.

[Unknown Guest]

My goal is that everyone can be around the table and different dishes are gonna resonate with different people. We have created a new language of cooking that is based in plant based cooking. And if you want, you will have the choice for a fish or for a lobster or for a duck. We're not anti meat, but we are pro planet and we believe that we need to reduce the consumption of meat in the world. And that is a fact. That's not something I came up with. But so if we can celebrate vegetables and have a little bit of meat or a little bit of fish, I think we're in really good shape. And that will really move the needle.

[Daniel Humm]

So probably a lot of the things like the, you know, the desserts and the bread will still be fully planned. There'll be no animal products at all. You're gonna have cream in your desserts or butter and the croissant.

[Unknown Guest]

You know, I think when we find a product that we're really excited about that we want to highlight. This could be a cheese, and this could be a butter or it could be a cream. And when the dish becomes about that product, then we will use it.

[Daniel Humm]

Right.

[Unknown Guest]

But we will not just mix it into every single dish like it used to be. But any great product has the potential to become a dish of eleven Madison park if that becomes the main focus.

[Daniel Humm]

Yeah. And will you. Will you have to reestablish some relationships that you lost?

[Unknown Guest]

You know, it was really interesting when we made this change. We did get some. We upset. Some. Some people were upset.

[Daniel Humm]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest]

Some of our suppliers were upset. And they felt like somehow we are turning our back on them, which of course, in a way we did because we stopped ordering certain things. But this was never meant to be personal or this was never meant to be about a supplier or even some chefs. I could feel they were a little bit rubbed the wrong way because maybe they felt that maybe there's some changes coming and maybe they need to start changing certain things. But this wasn't ever about anyone else other than what I wanted to do as a chef. And I was in a creative rut. I wasn't fulfilled. I had the opportunity to create something entirely different, to learn about new cultures. I never looked at traveling India, traveling Japan, learning about the sen Buddhist cuisine, going to the Middle east, all these places. It's changed my life. It's changed me as a chef, and I'm extremely grateful. And the team is grateful. Today I feel like our cuisine is its own. Before, I think it was always a version of something that already existed. And today I feel like I really found my voice. Today, the cuisine is very authentic. To eleven Madison Park.

[Guy Raz]

After the break, what Daniel thinks his decision means for himself and for eleven Madison Park. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to a special episode of How I Built this lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this Lab.

[Daniel Humm]

I'm Guy Raz.

[Guy Raz]

So along with his decision to put a few animal products back onto the menu, Daniel's grappling with what it means to him creatively as a chef, as a businessman, and as a leader, you.

[Daniel Humm]

Know, from an outsider's perspective.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Daniel Humm]

Especially for a young chef or anybody in food or anyone really looking at your career. And you, you know, they see you right, you'd be perceived as somebody extremely successful and, you know, Michelin, three stars and all these accolades. And I wonder how you see yourself.

[Unknown Guest]

I'm full of self doubt, especially with where we are going next, you know, in the process, after everyone told me this is not going to work, and I sort of came to the conclusion that we want to continue to evolve. We don't want to be stuck in this box. And sort of at times I felt like, well, I'm a fraud, all these things. The flag that I put in the sand is now people are going to look at it as like, a weakness. Are they going to judge me for being weak, for not standing for my beliefs? And of course, I have all these thoughts in my head. But then I also have to remind myself that in order to evolve, we do have to push boundaries. And then we learn, and then at times we pull back, and then we push in a different direction, and then we pull back. I feel like it's kind of human nature, and I think if we want to continue evolving 11 Madison Park. If I want to continue to learn as a chef, that's part of the process. And you know, I'm so grateful to the community of the plant based community who has been celebrating our work. It's given me a lot. And I do hope that now that we're pivoting slightly, that now the plant based community doesn't feel like we're turning our back, because that's not at all what we're doing. It's really to go deeper on this, to continue on this. We want to welcome everyone at the table.

[Daniel Humm]

Part of being running a restaurant and a business is you have to. You're a leader, right? You have to exercise like leadership skills. And so this is a change. I mean, there are people who are on the team, some of whom came and joined you because of this, because you went fully plant based. So it's gonna be hard for some people.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Daniel Humm]

How are you gonna manage that? You know, that sort of friction.

[Unknown Guest]

I think, you know, my team is everything to me. And a lot of people have been with me for a long time. I think the people who've been with me for a long time, they've gone through many different changes with me. And we all understand that we always going to continue to evolve and listen and adapt. So in that sense, everyone has lived this experience and everyone is sort of like itching for an evolution from here. There are people who have joined our restaurant because we are going down this path, but they're also all in the hospitality business and that's really why they are working in a restaurant. And I think they hear these feedbacks of people say, like, oh, I wish my brother could be here as well, or I wish my husband would understand what this is, but he's not willing to do it. And so we're all living this experience and I think people will understand we are not reverting back to the restaurant we were. We're a changed restaurant forever on. And the thing about EMP is change is in its DNA. There is a quote by an artist, William de Kooning, that really resonates with me. And he said, I have to change to stay the same. And this couldn't be more true for eleven Madison Park.

[Daniel Humm]

The restaurant industry in general is having. Is sort of, I think the. The word crisis has been used. That might be a bit much. But I mean, there are a lot of challenges, right? I hear from people I know in the industry. You hear it from chefs who. Restaurants are closing for a variety of reasons. Part of it is cost of labor and just to sustain the pace of running, especially a fine dining restaurant. I'm sure you've sort of seen these conversations happening on the margins, or even actually it's on center stage around the future of fine dining. Like, is that model right? Is that model sustainable? Is it going to be how people eat in 10 or 15 years?

[Unknown Guest]

To me, chefs are incredibly important. As we're seeing our food system change, our supply change. This cannot be in the hands of politics. This has to be in the hands of chefs and farmers and the people actually on the ground. Fine dining will always be, Will always exist because it's the highest form of cooking. It's like saying there won't be any ballet anymore or any classical music. I mean, this is part of the culture. I think it's important that it continues to exist and that we continue to celebrate it. And I believe very much, I think the way this is always kind of swung in a pendulum where we're very focused on casual dining, and then eventually we become more focused on fine dining. And maybe now we're in a place of. In the more casual, but it will swing back. It is important. It's also where a lot of the education happens. Like the amount of people who have come through EMP or through the French Laundry or to Single Threat or through any of these great restaurants, it is tremendous. And these people are working in casual restaurants, but they've gotten the training from these fine dining restaurants. So I think it's imperative that these restaurants continue to exist.

[Guy Raz]

So here you are, right at this next chapter.

[Daniel Humm]

And now we might talk about this chapter. In five years. Where do you see yourself in, you know, in 10 years from now? Like, where do you see. Because you're still young. I mean, you know, you're not yet 50. I think that's young because I'm 50. But I mean, you have.

[Unknown Guest]

All of.

[Daniel Humm]

These things that you probably want to do, and you're involved in different projects. I know.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Daniel Humm]

Where do you see yourself in 10 years from now? And what do you want to be doing?

[Unknown Guest]

I mean, eleven Madison park has been my life. I've been there for 20 years. I could have never imagined that that would become my home for so long, but I'm so grateful. And I feel that my work with this restaurant isn't done yet. But I think, and especially I think this next chapter is really crucial because I do believe that we are really now landing in a very healthy place where it's fundamentally a different restaurant, but one that welcomes everyone. And so that is something I want to see fully through. And in a weird way, I feel like for the first time ever, the restaurant feels complete after 20 years being there. And my goal is for this restaurant. This restaurant deserves to be one of the great restaurants for many more decades, and I don't think that's in me to be able to continue that story. We have incredible team members who are much younger who hopefully one day someone can take the reign and continue that story. My dream is that in 30 years the restaurant is as important as it is today. But that's an exciting sort of conversation and something I'm looking forward to solve over the next decade.

[Guy Raz]

That's Daniel Humm, chef and owner of eleven Madison park in New York City. Just a reminder, we'll put a link to my original conversation with Daniel from 2021 in the show notes. It's a great episode and well worth hearing. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you're new to How I Built this, check out our archives. Almost 700 in depth interviews with the world's greatest founders. All available to you for free. Just scroll down in your podcast queue and if you want to support this show, it's really easy. Do two things for me. Click the Follow button on your podcast app. It's free, by the way, and you'll never miss a new episode of the show. And and the second thing, Tell people about the show. We make HIPT to help you think about business, leadership, ideas and how to start something that has impact. You can also get free advice by signing up for my [e-mail] or on substack. This episode was produced by Kathryn Seifer with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our engineers were Robert Rodriguez, Amcina Lofredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Karla Estevez, Casey Herman, Kerry Thompson, Noor Gill, Rommel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.