← How I Built This with Guy Raz
How I Built This with Guy Raz
HOKA: Jean-Luc Diard and Nicolas Mermoud. The “Clown Shoe” That Became a $2B Bonanza
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- [00:00]
Guy Raz
This episode is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. One of the coolest things I did in 2025 was take my family on a trip to Greece. We were in Athens and saw the Parthenon and the Agora and all those amazing neighborhoods and ancient historical sites. And one of the things that made it so special was the home we booked on Airbnb. We literally had a view of the Parthenon from our bedroom window. It even had a hot tub on the top floor. And when we sat in it, we could look out over the entire city. That home on Airbnb made our trip so, so amazing. And when you take your own vacation, that's actually a great time to host your home on Airbnb. Your place with your unique art collection and your handy kitchen gadgets. It might just be what someone else needs to feel right at home on their next trip. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host right now, every business is asking the same question. How do we make AI work for us? No more waiting with NetSuite by Oracle, you can skip the guesswork and put AI to work. Today, NetSuite is the number one AI Cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. And with NetSuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data, plus automate those tiresome manual processes. Let's see your competitors do that. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead of the pack if your revenues are at least in the seven figures. Get their free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com built the guide is free to you at netsuite.com built netsuite.com built When I first started how I built this, I had a million ideas for the things we could do. Live shows, conferences, books, case studies, and so much more. And eventually we did almost all of these things. But man, do I wish we had used Shopify to get us going. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Allbirds and Magic Spoon to brands that are just getting started with hundreds of ready to use templates. Shopify's design studio helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Then get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns. Wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, it's time to turn those what ifs.
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Interviewer/Host
Into.
- [03:02]
Guy Raz
With Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com built. Go to shopify.com built. That's shopify.com built Are you inspired by the stories on How I Built this? Take the next step in your entrepreneurial journey with a graduate program at Babson College, the alma mater of Ring founder Jamie Siminoff, the Bombas co founder David Heath and Butcherbox founder Mike Salguero, whose stories you've heard right here on How I Built this, Babson gives you the skills, network and hands on experience to turn your ideas into reality. Learn more at Babson Edu Gradschool. Hey, just a quick message. If you're building a business right now, imagine getting advice from the founder of Tarte Cosmetics or Airbnb or even Sir Richard Branson or Mark Cuban. Well, you can get that advice. Every Thursday we drop an episode of the How I Built this advice line. It's where I bring back a previous founder we featured on a past episode and together we help real entrepreneurs, people selling skincare, dog toys, pottery, food, whatever. We help them work through the challenges they're facing right now. And the best part, this kind of advice, world class battle tested, is completely free. All you have to do is call 1-800-433-1298, tell us what you're building in under a minute and you might be the next guest on the advice line. So give us a call or send us a voice Memo and to Hibt d.wondery.com and tell us how we can help you.
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Interviewer/Host
Was there any possibility that you could have raised money? Was there culture? Was there a culture of being able to raise money from venture or investors In France?
- [05:16]
Jean Luc Diard
At the time there were people that were knocking at the door to say I want to invest, happy to invest into it. But the thing is that if we just have additional money, it's not going to bring much more. We need to have people try the products, everything in marketing. There is only one thing in marketing that we have to do that you have to go to a multitude of places and make people try. And that's not what you get from any investor.
- [05:52]
Guy Raz
Welcome to How I Built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists and the story behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today how a crushing end to a race in the French Alps led to the launch of Hoka a pillowy sneaker that now does over $2 billion in sales each year. Sometime around the 2010s, sneakers started to change. They got bigger, and they started to look almost like inflatable rafts with these thick, pillowy soles. Now, this was not intended to be about fashion, although thick soled sneakers did become a fashion accessory. But originally, it was all about comfort and performance. And that change was ignited by two companies, both founded in Europe about a year apart from. Both brands were started by elite runners, and both of them believed that more protection, more cushioning could actually improve your running. One of those brands was on It's a story we told on the show back in 2024. And the other brand was Hoka, the subject of today's episode. When Hoka's shoes first appeared in late 2009, they looked, well, just weird. The midsoles were unusually thick. The sole curved like the bottom of a rocking chair, and at first glance, they kind of resembled clown shoes. In fact, that's what some professional runners called them in the beginning. But that look wasn't an accident. The founders didn't think of a running shoe as a piece of apparel. They thought of it like a machine, every single part doing a specific job and every detail meticulously engineered. And it took time for people to get it. But once they did, the brand exploded. In 2012, Hoka was doing less than $3 million in sales a year. Today, it generates more than $2 billion. At the center of the story are two men who grew up not too far from each other in the French Alps. Jean Luc Dillard and Nicolas Mermoux. In 1980, when he was just 23 years old, Jean Luc joined a legendary French company called Salomon, back when it was known primarily for ski bindings. And there, early in his career, he encountered someone who would shape the way he thought about building things and leading people. And that person was the namesake of the company, Georges Salomon.
- [08:36]
Jean Luc Diard
The special thing with. With this person who was an amazing entrepreneur was that he was very close to everyone. So he would come to the office in the evening where I was, and say, so, what are you working on and what have you learned? Et cetera? And then one day, it was at the French national championships of skiing. He was there, and he caught me at the end of the race.
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Interviewer/Host
You were racing?
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Jean Luc Diard
Yeah, I was racing on the team. I was in the team of students, but not into the.
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Interviewer/Host
But you were in this race?
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Jean Luc Diard
Yeah, yeah, I was in that race. And he said to me, why don't you race with our ski boots? And I need to understand why. Why don't you come with me into the car and we'll go down to the ski boot division and you'll explain why I was freaking out. But obviously that was an amazing sign of how much he wanted to learn what could be improved. And those are the things that stay into your mind. I mean, the CEO, owner, let's say, of that company, come to an intern, bring him to the skiboot division and say, we're going to talk about those things.
- [09:48]
Interviewer/Host
So this would begin a long career at Salomon 1980, as an intern. You would eventually. We're going to get to it. You'd eventually become the CEO, President, CEO. And I think in 1986, you are putting in charge of product for this new product, which is going to be skis, which is going to really blow the whole. I mean, transform this brand. It's going to make it into a brand that is like Burton. I mean, it was. It was going to become a huge brand.
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Jean Luc Diard
Yes. Yeah. Because the ski is the. Is the king product. So. And then there was the big aspect that, that I was anticipating the fact that skis and bindings would become one unit and not being completely separate elements.
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Interviewer/Host
But it used to be that you bought the skis, you bought the bindings, you would connect them. Right now you just buy everything.
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Jean Luc Diard
The big argument that I had at that time was to say, this is what is going to happen. So if we don't get into it, we're going to be left aside.
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Interviewer/Host
It's hard to imagine that it was.
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Guy Raz
Not that long ago, and we're talking.
- [10:52]
Interviewer/Host
About 30, 40 years ago, that you would still buy them separately, these components. And Salomon was a bindings brand, and then they were sort of. They weren't sure if they should get into skis. But it just seems like an obvious today, you know, in hindsight, seems totally obvious.
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Jean Luc Diard
Many, many of the brands at the beginning were like, very, very specialized. You could say the same in the bike industry or things like that. And so you were an Alpine ski binding company, an Alpine ski boot company, or an Alpine ski company.
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Interviewer/Host
Got it.
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Guy Raz
Okay. I want to turn to you now, Nico, because I think you were 20 years old when you first met Jean Luc. You were still at university.
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Nicolas Mermoux
Yes.
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Guy Raz
And I guess you were at a ski race.
- [11:39]
Interviewer/Host
You. You were racing.
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Guy Raz
And. And from what I understand, you met Jean Luc because he was there recruiting people to work on this new ski that Salomon was. Was developing. Is that right?
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Nicolas Mermoux
Yes. You have to understand, at that time, the aura around Salomon was unbelievable. George Salomon was the ultimate. I mean, beyond legend, beyond the sports. And he was like this amazing person, was a genius. So it was like a dream company, especially for someone who loves King. So I talked to Jean Luc and I said, I'd like to come join you when I'm done studying. And he said, well, I mean, just finish your studies and we can talk again in two years and a half.
- [12:26]
Interviewer/Host
And finally, Nico, you graduate and you join Salomon. Tell me about. So you contact Jean Luc and you say, okay, I'm done, I'm ready.
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Nicolas Mermoux
Yeah. But the most funny part is it was my first day at the office, you know, so we met on the parking lot, and then we drive to a glacier in Courmayeur, like in the Mont Blanc, Chamonix Valley, and we test different prototypes, we compare them.
- [12:56]
Interviewer/Host
This is your first day?
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Nicolas Mermoux
That was my first day. So two takes from that day. The first one, of course, is that's what I want to do all my life, you know, I want to wake up and go do what I love and get paid and get paid, and with a bunch of super nice, fun colleagues who become friends, you know, that's the first one. And the second one is that as soon as we sat down after the test, we were talking about the feel, we're talking about the sensations, the emotion we had in between the snow, our feet, our brain, everybody equal, everybody trying to solve a problem with no sense of hierarchy. This has never changed.
- [13:45]
Interviewer/Host
And by the way, how did that first. Those first few skis do? Were they a hit?
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Jean Luc Diard
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was a big, big hit. Just to put it in perspective, I mean, it took us six years to be number one in terms of global sales, global revenues. On the ski side, that's the power of innovation and it's the power of young blood. But then being always extremely critical toward what you do, that's the constant process, but never being satisfied.
- [14:15]
Nicolas Mermoux
I think it's very French, it's very mountain people. Authenticity, you know, not to get impressed, not to get overconfident. And we have sometimes this reputation in France to be a bit critical and to be unsatisfied. It's not always pleasant when you go to a restaurant or you get in a taxi in Paris.
- [14:38]
Interviewer/Host
I love the French, but there is a malaise sometimes that you experience.
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Nicolas Mermoux
Yes, but when it comes to innovation, especially if you mix it with our background as mountain people, Salomon embraced it and decided to jump to the next level. But you can miss opportunities. You can miss when you're too focused on your own success and what you're doing, and you want to follow your path. And it's always important to listen to the consumers and to look very closely at what the competitors are doing.
- [15:10]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah. Jean Luc, you would spend 27 years at Salomon, ultimately, and you became the CEO in 1998, when you became CEO of this group, because you saw Salomon go from a bindings company to a bindings and boots company, to a binding boots and ski company, then eventually a summer winter sports company. I mean, running shoes and apparel, arcterics apparel, and even cycling and all these things. Can you give me a sense of from the time you joined Salomon in 1980, 81, to the time you left, which we'll get, to what was the revenue from the beginning and then what was it at the end?
- [15:49]
Jean Luc Diard
It was not even. It was below 100 million. It was, I think, in the 70 to 80 million when I joined, and then when I left, the group was about 1.2 billion.
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Guy Raz
Wow.
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Jean Luc Diard
Yeah.
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Interviewer/Host
So completely different company.
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Jean Luc Diard
Very different.
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Interviewer/Host
I mean, just an explosion in growth. Yeah. All right.
- [16:09]
Guy Raz
I want to.
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Interviewer/Host
I want to jump to 2007, because this was going to be your last year at Salomon. From what I understand you go to. In 2007, you were at the outdoor retailer trade show. This is in Europe or in the U.S. uS. Okay. And already at that point there. There was. There were trends happening in all across sports, I guess, just kind of oversized, larger things, right?
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Jean Luc Diard
Yes. Larger and lighter. It's one of those things that every time you get out at the trade show and you have things that all of a sudden jump a little bit more in your face.
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Guy Raz
Yeah.
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Interviewer/Host
What are some examples that you were seeing?
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Jean Luc Diard
Take tailor made golf clubs. Just to take an example. The first tailor made golf club heads, they were 200cc, and then gradually they moved to 300, then to 300.
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Interviewer/Host
The Golf heads were just getting bigger.
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Jean Luc Diard
And bigger, bigger and bigger. And as they grew bigger, the products was that they grew lighter at the same time, and they gave not only more performance, but they gave also more tolerance.
- [17:14]
Interviewer/Host
It made it easier to hit the.
- [17:15]
Jean Luc Diard
Ball harder, farther, straighter. So all those things led to better performance in skis, the same way skis had become wider.
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Guy Raz
Wider. And what did that mean?
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Interviewer/Host
What did wider skis mean?
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Jean Luc Diard
You get a combination of stability on the one side, which is kind of the way you feel relaxed if you want, but at the same time, combined with other parameters, it's still enabled to curve really well. So that's one example. Bike wheels became much bigger, mountain wheels, thicker. The profile of the rims. If you are a biker, I mean, you became much more aerodynamic, and we can name a lot of things like that where we saw that. Oversized and lighter, enabled to change paradoxes, to change paradigms. And you brought performance more, let's say, to the bigger. To a bigger group.
- [18:11]
Interviewer/Host
All of these things are kind of swirling around. Like, if I'm looking at the movie about your life, you're walking down the street and all these bubbles are just like the, you know, the larger size and me. Yeah, go ahead.
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Nicolas Mermoux
Everything that's also a little bit at that time, the design, like the style, the impact on the eye generates questions and interest, whether it's negative or.
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Interviewer/Host
Look at those big tires, look at those fast skis, look at those big golf clubs.
- [18:40]
Nicolas Mermoux
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
- [18:42]
Guy Raz
Okay, I want to turn to you now, Nico, because I think you were.
- [18:46]
Interviewer/Host
You're going to run this ultra marathon, this ultra trail du Mont Blanc. Okay, so you do this. This is 2007.
- [18:53]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes.
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Interviewer/Host
It's 101 miles around Mont Blanc.
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Guy Raz
First of all, were you.
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Interviewer/Host
I mean, we've only talked about skiing and winter sports. Had you. I'm assuming you got into running at some point in your life.
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Nicolas Mermoux
Very surprisingly, than the way that I ski raced for many years, I became more of an athlete and an elite athlete in endurance sports. And then it went to adventure racing, and then it went to trail running. You would do it in like one to two days.
- [19:22]
Interviewer/Host
So you got into this in your 30s, almost into trail running.
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Nicolas Mermoux
Trail running. I started my first serious trail race. I was 40.
- [19:29]
Interviewer/Host
40, wow. You do this insane ultramarathon, which I guess today 6,000 people start. You're going to run around Mont Blanc. And Jean Luc, you're going to be part of his crew.
- [19:41]
Jean Luc Diard
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Interviewer/Host
And the crew meant like, handing him water or snacks while he was running.
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Jean Luc Diard
Past you and poles.
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Nicolas Mermoux
Jackets.
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Jean Luc Diard
Jackets and whatever. And effectively, the first thing that you are depleted from is water and food. And the first. By the very first moment already, I.
- [19:58]
Nicolas Mermoux
Mean.
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Jean Luc Diard
He started like crazy, way ahead of the pack. That was a huge surprise.
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Interviewer/Host
You were an amateur, but you were an elite. I read for the first 15 hours of this race, you were in the lead.
- [20:12]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes, I was in the lead. I just took off. And then the Saturday at like 4pm it was over because I ended up doing 22 hours and coming in third.
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Interviewer/Host
But 22 hours. Coming in third, yes. And this is in one pair of Shoes the whole time, Right. Or do you switch shoes?
- [20:32]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yeah, I didn't switch.
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Interviewer/Host
And how did you. I mean, this is 101 miles. You're pounding. You're constantly pounding your joints. Your body. I mean, you must have been just spent, wiped.
- [20:44]
Nicolas Mermoux
Well, I fell apart. That's why I didn't win, because I tried to do every. I was getting chased by 2,500 people. I could see the headlamps, and I ran down the way I would normally ski or drive, but I had no technology. I had, like, a very thin. So my body fell apart.
- [21:05]
Interviewer/Host
Were you in excruciating pain the last.
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Nicolas Mermoux
I couldn't. I lost one hour in the last 30k, how. One hour?
- [21:11]
Interviewer/Host
What was happening?
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Nicolas Mermoux
Because my quads shut down.
- [21:14]
Interviewer/Host
So you were like jelly. Your legs were.
- [21:16]
Nicolas Mermoux
You cannot create the speed. You cannot lift up your feet.
- [21:20]
Interviewer/Host
So your brain is saying. Your brain is telling your legs to move, but they cannot move.
- [21:25]
Nicolas Mermoux
My legs are telling my brain to stop with pain. It's the other way around, because when.
- [21:32]
Interviewer/Host
You'Re going downhill, you're using more of your.
- [21:34]
Nicolas Mermoux
You're braking.
- [21:35]
Interviewer/Host
Right. And so you're putting more strain on your quads, I think, than when you're going up. Up is more calves. I guess it depends on how you run.
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Jean Luc Diard
Yeah. Your quads, your knees, I mean, take a lot.
- [21:46]
Interviewer/Host
Your knees, right.
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Jean Luc Diard
When you're going down, your back takes a lot.
- [21:50]
Guy Raz
Yeah.
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Interviewer/Host
I mean, I can picture it so many times, because as a kid, you know, we love running down grass hills. Or even when I hike now, I'm always very careful when I'm going downhill because I don't want to fall. I don't want to slip. And so really, the conclusion you come to is that the downhill side, this is a technology problem. This can actually be solved.
- [22:12]
Jean Luc Diard
To your point guy, as a kid, every time you see a little rundown, what do you do?
- [22:19]
Interviewer/Host
You run.
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Jean Luc Diard
You run. And typically, you have your arms wide open and you laugh and you fall sometimes, but you have fun.
- [22:27]
Nicolas Mermoux
There are days you fly. It doesn't matter which. That's why you have this expression which sticks with runners, with bikers, with skiers, with anyone. Today I was flying.
- [22:37]
Jean Luc Diard
So how do you get back to that?
- [22:40]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Guy Raz
And I think one of the things you began to sort of. To kind of document, right, is that a runner's performance changes depending on the surface that they're running on during a race. Right. Like, not all trails feel the same under your feet, right?
- [22:53]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes. There was one in the fall with a lot of dead leaves.
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Jean Luc Diard
Dead leaves.
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Nicolas Mermoux
There was One dead leaves.
- [23:00]
Interviewer/Host
You were running, so you had the cushioning from the leaves.
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Nicolas Mermoux
There was one very important one in 2000, during an adventure race in Sicily on lava.
- [23:09]
Interviewer/Host
So it was soft.
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Nicolas Mermoux
There was one a couple times, like gliding on snow.
- [23:15]
Jean Luc Diard
And you see the big difference that there is between when you are in those situations compared to when you are in other situations where you are just pounding hard.
- [23:24]
Nicolas Mermoux
It's a legend that we were serious, enthusiastic runners before Hokia. We were lazy because it was so hard. And one step at a time compared to anything else we would do.
- [23:37]
Interviewer/Host
Okay, so you guys start to have this conversation and what. I mean, what do you remember you said to Jean Luc or you said to Nico, or said, why don't we develop? Why don't we try to build a shoe that solves this problem? Do you remember how you came to this?
- [23:54]
Nicolas Mermoux
We had this desire to. To do something together. We had like a field which seemed fantastic, which is footwear because it's a huge market. Nothing really had been done for so long.
- [24:11]
Interviewer/Host
So what was the next step then?
- [24:13]
Jean Luc Diard
In order to make things happen, we started to create a design center, let's say a development center, with people coming that had some know how. And so we had different people, let's say on the topic at the beginning, before we start tuning the things.
- [24:34]
Interviewer/Host
Okay. And was any part of you, Jean Luc, nervous? I mean, you had. Because when you're the CEO of a big company, you've got all kinds of resources at your disposal and you've got all kinds of people and staff and a huge organization. What were the challenges you were facing personally to do this? Because you would have to put in money and your reputation and all of a sudden you're going to be calling and picking up the phones and it's a different. So tell me a little bit about what that was like for you.
- [25:12]
Jean Luc Diard
Yeah. So on the one side, you have the excitement of starting a new adventure, clearly. The second thing is that you know that Those adventures have 80% plus chances of failure. So you just take that into account. And then the other thing is to fix boundaries when it comes to the investments that you are going to do. So here you need to be very clear with your family about how much you are going to put into it.
- [25:39]
Interviewer/Host
You guys were going to put your money, you are not going to go raise money.
- [25:42]
Jean Luc Diard
That's one thing. And obviously not everyone was believing that the two of us could do something together.
- [25:51]
Guy Raz
Who was. I mean, I would believe it.
- [25:52]
Interviewer/Host
You were the head of. You guys had a great track record.
- [25:56]
Jean Luc Diard
Most People around us would say, are you sure it can work? But that's fine. That's the usual thing that you face. So this is why in order to make something, you have to have, let's say, first, a great team around you. So that was the first thing to say. Who are the people that can bring that to life? But that group, which cost a lot of money every day, just you had to pay salaries and you had to pay rent and you had to pay all of that.
- [26:29]
Interviewer/Host
So you rented space in Inc. And was this like, was it a small office with like labs, like tables and cutting equipment to cut and to.
- [26:40]
Jean Luc Diard
Exactly. So smaller fee space, small tools, small things. I mean, to do things knowing that in footwear, the innovators are also the suppliers. They are the people who are providing you with the foam formulations, with the different materials, etc. So what we had, we had connections with a lot of people out there. So those people would give us, let's say, like the first step of credibility to get it going. Even if they had eyes like this when we showed where we wanted to go. But at least they said, ok, we'll give it a try.
- [27:20]
Guy Raz
When we come back in just a moment. Niko takes an early version of Hoka's to a trail race. And even he has to admit they kind of look like clown shoes. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built this. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy raz. So it's 2008, and Jean, Luc and Nico have set up a design studio in Annecy in the French Alps to develop a new kind of running shoe. But this very first version isn't really a sneaker. It's more like a piece of foam that you'd strap to the bottom of your shoes for downhill running.
- [28:11]
Nicolas Mermoux
We were like, maybe people will go to the mountains and they would drive up or they will ride the gondola up and they will just trap their equipment when they get to the town and they will fly down the mountains. So it was pushing the envelope to the extreme of a new sport, which would be downhill running. And that's when there were this idea of straps. But a. The straps wouldn't work because your foot would.
- [28:39]
Interviewer/Host
So you never made a prototype.
- [28:43]
Jean Luc Diard
It didn't work much.
- [28:45]
Interviewer/Host
Okay, do you have a name for the shoe from the beginning, or would that come later?
- [28:49]
Nicolas Mermoux
So the name Hoka, most important thing is we wanted to portray flying. I had been to New Zealand a few times.
- [28:59]
Interviewer/Host
Hoka is A. I think it's a Maori word. Right. What does it mean?
- [29:03]
Nicolas Mermoux
So hoka is flying. One is like the element, the dirt. Flying, soaring. There's many ways to say it in Maori.
- [29:10]
Interviewer/Host
Hoka. 1. Most people saw it as hoka.
- [29:13]
Guy Raz
11.
- [29:13]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes.
- [29:14]
Jean Luc Diard
Because it's the feeling that we wanted to describe. Everything was based, once again, on the notion of flow and flying. Everything. And that was linked to the fact that what we had stated was a name that would have four letters, two syllabs.
- [29:31]
Guy Raz
Hoka. Yeah.
- [29:33]
Jean Luc Diard
And the best, let's say, places where we had enjoyed the most adventure racing were on the islands. And so we wanted to take that positioning of being associated to the islands. We found that there was no brands associated with it, that it was completely different types of positioning and that you had everything sea to summit, let's say, with every kind of terrain, sky to sea. Sky to sea.
- [29:59]
Interviewer/Host
Great. Because at that time, you would think, given your backgrounds, you know, trail running, you might think of, like, Boulder, Colorado.
- [30:06]
Guy Raz
Right.
- [30:07]
Interviewer/Host
You might think of like that, but.
- [30:08]
Guy Raz
You wanted to get away from that.
- [30:10]
Interviewer/Host
You wanted it to be more people to think of an island, which is interesting. So, clearly there is this kind of mood board you're kind of working through. But let's talk about the design. Tell me about this idea of midsoles. Right? Because I think midsole, and it's literally the middle of the sole. There hadn't really been much thought put into midsole innovation at the time, the midsole.
- [30:36]
Nicolas Mermoux
And it's much more true now than it was like 20 years ago. It's the engine and the body of the footwear, and your foot sits inside the car, which is a midsole, and there is a tire underneath, which creates a connection and the grip and the connection with the ground. And there is like a seat and a seat belt, which is the upper. But we were looking at it like it's a ski or it's a wheel.
- [31:07]
Jean Luc Diard
It's the interface. I mean, the way we described it is that it's the interface between you and the ground. How do you develop that interface?
- [31:14]
Interviewer/Host
How do you develop the snow or the lava ash or the leaves?
- [31:18]
Guy Raz
Exactly.
- [31:19]
Nicolas Mermoux
Something soft, glidy, bouncy, you know?
- [31:24]
Jean Luc Diard
Yeah. Because we wanted to improve on that. But as I said, it was. You wanted to make something that had an appeal, let's say, much in a much broader way. So downhill running was like a point of entry, but from the bigger perspective, it was always to say, where does that lead to? Because you don't do shoes just for Downhill running in hundred mile races. That would be like 1,000 people doing it. So the starting point is you build rocker.
- [31:58]
Interviewer/Host
Rocker. So it's a shape like a rock. It's like a rocker, like the bottom of a rocking chair.
- [32:03]
Jean Luc Diard
Because any kind of movement needs to be fluid, whatever the way, wherever you are, let's say going up, flat down.
- [32:09]
Interviewer/Host
Et cetera, that when you would land on your heel and it would just propel you up like a rocking chair.
- [32:14]
Guy Raz
So was there anything out there on.
- [32:17]
Interviewer/Host
The market like a rocking chair at the time?
- [32:19]
Jean Luc Diard
Yeah, I mean, in some ways, partly the shape. The mbt.
- [32:24]
Guy Raz
Mbt, I remember.
- [32:25]
Interviewer/Host
Yes.
- [32:26]
Guy Raz
Which was a different small brand that was for walking.
- [32:28]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [32:29]
Jean Luc Diard
It's a very different principle, but it had this in the sense that it was built on the principle of instability. The instability principle was here to help you, let's say, find your stability by putting your body in the right position.
- [32:43]
Interviewer/Host
Essentially, just these were really innovative shoes because they were like boats. They were like. It was like two little boats on your feet.
- [32:49]
Jean Luc Diard
Exactly. That was a whole thing. I mean, but the perception that you had like this was important. And globally speaking, once again, every development mindset was how do we make the thing that requires the least energy for the maximum amount of efficiency? So that's one thing that was 100% clear since the beginning. It had to be rocker.
- [33:11]
Interviewer/Host
So you knew that it had to be a rocker. Okay, so now. But the challenge was, in order to.
- [33:16]
Guy Raz
Do that, you needed a lot more foam and that was going to add more weight.
- [33:21]
Interviewer/Host
How much of a challenge was it to develop this technology?
- [33:26]
Nicolas Mermoux
Well, if you want suspension and you're going to use like a midsole that's like two to three times the size of a regular midsole. And to have like a great cushioning, you need to go with foams which are much softer than what was the industry standard.
- [33:42]
Jean Luc Diard
And we went like pretty much twice softer than what was the tradition in the industry?
- [33:47]
Interviewer/Host
Softer. So less dense.
- [33:48]
Jean Luc Diard
Yeah, much softer.
- [33:49]
Nicolas Mermoux
But softer also means less dense. So much lighter.
- [33:54]
Interviewer/Host
Okay.
- [33:55]
Jean Luc Diard
So the challenge into getting that was to find the partners that would dare making that.
- [34:00]
Nicolas Mermoux
Because it's never been made.
- [34:02]
Jean Luc Diard
It had not been made.
- [34:03]
Interviewer/Host
Why not? Because it was not practical. It wasn't seen as.
- [34:06]
Jean Luc Diard
It was not industry standard because all the shoes were low profile. And in order to give you the resistance, also in a low profile, you had to have a given stiffness.
- [34:17]
Interviewer/Host
So it was a stiffer foam. Nobody was making softer. But the technology was. I mean, it was possible to make it.
- [34:24]
Nicolas Mermoux
Absolutely.
- [34:24]
Jean Luc Diard
It was possible but it had not been done. So you still had to find the partners, the supplier partners that would make it. Because everyone was concerned that it could not work because it would destroy itself too easily or it would.
- [34:41]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, you weren't sure it was going to work?
- [34:44]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes, we were not sure. Of course we were not sure, but we were not sure it was going to be stable. But we did so much to make it stable. We put the foot really down inside the midsole. We went very wide, so we did anything we could to make sure it's stable.
- [35:02]
Interviewer/Host
And I want to clarify this point because of course, this is an audio program. Mainly when normal shoes that you run in, your foot is on top of the cushioning. This was different because the cushioning actually surrounded your foot. You were actually inside.
- [35:19]
Jean Luc Diard
The cushioning is still below you. But most around wanted to make a bucket seat that would, that would surround you.
- [35:26]
Interviewer/Host
How long did it take for them to figure out how to make this foam, how to make what you need?
- [35:32]
Nicolas Mermoux
The foam existed already. They just, like, they just put in a much bigger mold, something much softer, about 30, 35% softer.
- [35:41]
Interviewer/Host
And how long did it take?
- [35:43]
Jean Luc Diard
It didn't take much. I mean, it took for us three months, let's say, to have something that was. That was like tangible.
- [35:50]
Interviewer/Host
So you're working with. So there are factories in China that are making this. But you have to convince them. Was it, I mean, hard? Why was it hard?
- [35:59]
Nicolas Mermoux
Because we were not existing. We were like a micro customer with no background, nothing, asking for very innovative, complicated things that had never been done.
- [36:14]
Jean Luc Diard
And we didn't have orders to place immediately.
- [36:17]
Interviewer/Host
But you wanted a prototype, you needed a prototype. And usually these places need an order in order to do a prototype.
- [36:25]
Jean Luc Diard
They work with you when you have already a business case that is established. We didn't have that. So it was all based on relationship in saying, please, let's make a try.
- [36:36]
Nicolas Mermoux
The head of R and D, and he worked some amazing magic to do the CAD design, to go convince the factories. He had worked with them for many years. We had a very special relationship and they tried.
- [36:52]
Interviewer/Host
So when you got those first prototypes, what did you do? I'm assuming you ran them, you wanted to run in them.
- [36:56]
Nicolas Mermoux
We got them in February 2009. Inansi we went on a trail that we knew and it was like a spectacular, like immediately, the first prototype, the first. The first 15 minutes, the three of us ran down and walked back up and ran down again and we were like basically screaming. It was so easy. The point where you have to start braking and use your quads like we described earlier was at a higher speed. And that was like the very, very first day. This sensation of flying, this sensation of letting go, just moving your arms and not worry about the terrain, like on a mountain bike. The next thing we did, like probably 20 or 30 minutes later is because we of course had like competitor shoes in our current footwear. We got like the. Some timing. We started timing ourselves and we were like 10 seconds off of a minute.
- [37:57]
Interviewer/Host
And just to be clear, these prototypes had tread on the bottom as well.
- [38:01]
Nicolas Mermoux
No tread, but it's okay because it was dry.
- [38:04]
Interviewer/Host
It was dry, it wasn't wet, it wasn't rainy.
- [38:06]
Nicolas Mermoux
And because it was so soft. And it's always been the case with the HOKA shoes because it was so soft. The foam conforms itself to the obstacles.
- [38:16]
Interviewer/Host
This is in, I think, February of 2009. When you get these first May of that year, you once again run the Mont Blanc race. This is, I think, second, third time you're going to run the race.
- [38:29]
Nicolas Mermoux
So in May we had like with these prototypes, I did a race close to my parents house in Cantal and I raced in it. I raced in them.
- [38:39]
Interviewer/Host
And this is not a. This is the Chamonix marathon.
- [38:42]
Nicolas Mermoux
And then that's what. There was this one. And then like by the end of June, I raced the Chamonix marathon with the second round of prototypes. I think I came in fifth.
- [38:51]
Interviewer/Host
So let's just talk about this. So now you are going to use your own shoes? Yeah, for marathons. And were both of these, were they road marathons or were they trail marathons?
- [39:02]
Nicolas Mermoux
No, it's a trail marathon with 2,200 meters of elevation up and 1600 meters down. And that was hysterical because everybody had, of course, regular footwear from that time. And so I start the race and there's a leading pack with a lot of serious runners and they all have their very minimal footwear. And I'm here with my gigantic, like, clown shoes. I mean, some of the people knew me, so they were not like making fun of me, but they were like, that is so weird and that is so strange. And then, yeah, I came the only time I've done this race and I came in fifth.
- [39:43]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, I mean, it's so. Yeah, just on this point, I mean, you are, this is 2009. You are in shoes that are two completely different. Nobody would be running a race in a shoe with a giant sole that's shaped like a rocker.
- [39:56]
Nicolas Mermoux
Like, and anyone else who would be running would be Willing to run in them, would be too embarrassed to wear them.
- [40:02]
Interviewer/Host
Besides, probably me embarrassed because they look like clown shoes. People thought they were so weird.
- [40:07]
Nicolas Mermoux
And they were orange and blue that day.
- [40:09]
Interviewer/Host
Okay, so when you ran these races, I mean, we talked about the race that Jean Luc was. Saw you in in 2007, and your legs collapse.
- [40:20]
Guy Raz
What's your experience now?
- [40:21]
Interviewer/Host
Is it different?
- [40:22]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes. I mean, I. I started the last part of the race after a very strong downhill. Much more fresh. Yes. And caught a lot of people. In the last third of the race.
- [40:34]
Jean Luc Diard
You were like 20th mid race.
- [40:37]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yeah, probably.
- [40:38]
Interviewer/Host
And you ended the race number four.
- [40:40]
Nicolas Mermoux
Five. Five.
- [40:41]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah. I mean, what about your body, your joints, your. Your knees, your. Your quads? Was there a marked difference in how you felt?
- [40:50]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes. Yes. I mean, both in the last third of the race and in the recovery, because I could race one week later and win something called Montagnard. Yeah. It was the first ever victory in Hokas. I would have never thought I could do. I could go back and do another. I think it was 3,000 meters of elevation, like seven days later.
- [41:16]
Interviewer/Host
Okay, so you have something. I mean, at this point, I'm assuming you're starting to put in orders for your first shoe, but before we get.
- [41:24]
Jean Luc Diard
There, no, we don't have orders at that stage. We are just testing prototypes.
- [41:30]
Interviewer/Host
Okay.
- [41:30]
Jean Luc Diard
And the plan was initially to launch at the end of 2010.
- [41:34]
Interviewer/Host
Now, let's just talk about this for a moment. At this point, are you thinking this is really going to be a brand, a product for a small segment of people, or were you thinking big, like this can be for. No, you were already thinking big.
- [41:50]
Jean Luc Diard
Yeah.
- [41:51]
Nicolas Mermoux
Based on our experience, we thought once people experienced that they would never be able to go back.
- [41:57]
Guy Raz
So how did you.
- [41:58]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, this could have just been a novelty kind of thing. How did you convince the first retailer to take a chance on these shoes?
- [42:07]
Jean Luc Diard
Testing everything you bring, new and different and innovative, always has to go through people doing the experience by themselves because the first thing is always, no, no, no, no. This is stupid. Until you try. So trying, trying, trying make people try.
- [42:26]
Guy Raz
When we come back in just a moment, the founders start facing new problems. Supply chain competition, cash flow. And they realize that outside investment won't really help them. They actually need something bigger. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built this. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 2009, 2010, and Nico and Jean Luc are starting to take Hokas to Trade shows where they're doing everything they can to get runners to try them.
- [43:21]
Jean Luc Diard
We drop rocks on the ground so that to say, people, just run on those rocks. Now get back to your shoe and run on those rocks again. And then now go there and come back. I think ultimately, let's say the cushioning made it appealing to a wider group of people. Just generally speaking, what we use to present, always the thing is the way you proceed as a consumer to picking the product so at distance, you see something special, then you take it in hand and you want the second wow effect. Second wow effect being it's light, I was expecting something heavy. It's super light. Then you get into the next wow, which is I put it on, and it feels immediately, let's say, protective. And then I start to run, and it feels very easy and protective and stable. So that's the thing that we wanted to do all the time.
- [44:20]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, before you released the shoes for commercial purposes, I read that lots of people were saying to you, this is just not going to work.
- [44:31]
Guy Raz
But you were hearing this repeatedly again.
- [44:33]
Interviewer/Host
And again from a lot of people, which sounds like it could be validation that your idea was not working.
- [44:39]
Jean Luc Diard
I would say 98% of the people who are saying this, they said, this.
- [44:42]
Interviewer/Host
Is not going to work.
- [44:43]
Jean Luc Diard
But the biggest challenge was actually for our salespeople, because our salespeople being pushed back and pushed back and pushed back and pushed back. And we had agents, we had people that, for them, they had to make a living out of it. So that was very, very tough for them to keep them motivated.
- [45:02]
Nicolas Mermoux
But what was extremely important and happened is to get a couple of the athletes, try the shoes. Because when you have something weird which feels weird and looks weird, if you don't want it to be perceived as a gimmick, you need performance in racing validation, like, almost immediately. And we had one guy in France, Ludovic Pommer, and Karl Melzer in the US who also did the same experience and adopted the shoes almost immediately. Like on the very first day, Karl Meltzer was.
- [45:34]
Interviewer/Host
I think he was sponsored by another shoe brand, and he dropped that brand to run because he had tried them in his. He was living in the US he tried them in neighborhood runs.
- [45:45]
Jean Luc Diard
And then other people in the US and notably with the Hard Rock, for example, it was phenomenal because that woman, Diane Finkel, bought the shoes, and after something like 15 miles or something like that or 20 miles maybe, she took the lead of the race. So she took the lead ahead of all the males, and she stayed in the lead until mile 90, I think.
- [46:08]
Guy Raz
Wow.
- [46:09]
Jean Luc Diard
And she finished second. So that had never been done before. And we had people in Italy. And so it was a word of mouth.
- [46:16]
Interviewer/Host
It was word of mouth.
- [46:16]
Jean Luc Diard
So the word of mouth started to spread. And those people we didn't know about, we learned about it, but we had no idea who was using the shoes.
- [46:25]
Interviewer/Host
Okay, so 2010, I mean, you're getting all of these runners using the shoes. You're getting all this validation from the runners from this community. Sounds from the outside like things are going great. What are the challenges you're facing?
- [46:42]
Jean Luc Diard
The first big one was the industrial challenge. We were given only some windows of production. So people saying, I have capacity that week to make your shoes. Because they wouldn't give us, let's say, a classical plan. So we had to do with that and then ship those goods, let's say, to wherever it needed to be shipped at costs that were then incredibly expensive. Then there was the cash flow part, because as soon as we started to move a little bit ahead, so you sold something, then you had a little bit of cash, then the next order was twice bigger than the first one. So then your cash flow went like this and the banks would not follow because they said, that's too risky. I mean, it's growing too big too fast. And if you need 100, you have to put 100 and guarantee also 100. Those were the dynamics. So we were kind of confident that we had something special. But to make it happen, truly we were not, let's say it was not an easy sell and it was really a very complicated supply chain aspect.
- [47:55]
Interviewer/Host
How were you dealing with the cash situation? How did you, I mean, did you. You have to pay for the. These orders. Now you're talking about hundreds of thousands of shoes. How are you going to pay for that?
- [48:09]
Jean Luc Diard
All money?
- [48:10]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yeah, all money, yeah.
- [48:13]
Interviewer/Host
This is what kills a lot of businesses. When you grow, you're growing too fast, you can't keep up, and you've got to. And you've got to basically can't finance.
- [48:22]
Guy Raz
It and it collapses.
- [48:24]
Interviewer/Host
Was there any possibility that you could have raised money? Was there culture, was there a culture of being able to raise money from venture or investors? In France at the time, there were.
- [48:35]
Jean Luc Diard
People that were knocking at the door to say, I want to invest, happy to invest into it, knowing that in France it's not as easy as it is in the U.S. but the thing is that we discussed up front was if we just have additional money, it's not going to bring much more because the Challenge we face from a supply chain standpoint is not going to help. And the second thing is that we need to have people try the products. Everything in marketing. There is only one thing in marketing that we have to do, that you have to go to a multitude of places and make people try. And that requires manpower, and that's not what you get from any investor.
- [49:19]
Interviewer/Host
So just to clarify, the challenge is, the supply chain challenge is that to get on these production lines was very hard because they're already making shoes for other companies.
- [49:30]
Guy Raz
Right.
- [49:31]
Interviewer/Host
And so to get in there with your tiny little brand, that's a challenge. To finance it is a challenge, but then to get people to be aware of it is another challenge. Because you have your company of five, seven people.
- [49:43]
Jean Luc Diard
Yeah.
- [49:43]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes, exactly. And also, like in the summer of 2010, very early summer, like around this month of July, after we had delivered, like, about 3,000 pairs of shoes, we knew that we needed to accelerate because there was nervousness because some shoes were getting shipped, especially by a couple of our accounts. They were getting orders from competitors.
- [50:08]
Interviewer/Host
What do you mean?
- [50:09]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes.
- [50:09]
Interviewer/Host
Compared to getting borders, your competitors were buying your shoes. So you started to get intel that the big players were taking your shoes, to take them apart, basically. Can you patent. I mean, you can patent the design.
- [50:23]
Jean Luc Diard
Patents are always a matter of who has the biggest amount of money.
- [50:27]
Interviewer/Host
Right. To fight the lawsuit.
- [50:29]
Jean Luc Diard
Yeah.
- [50:29]
Guy Raz
And meanwhile, there's another really important factor you have to consider. Right. Because in order to build a successful running shoe brand, you have to be in the US because this is where the money is and where the customers are. Right. And I mean, at this point, this is like 2012. I think only a few specialty running stores are selling your shoes in the US and so I guess this is when you start looking for partners, strategic partners, like somebody who could really help you grow in the U.S. right. And I read that somehow you got put in touch with the team at Deckers, the company that had. That still owns Tevas and Uggs, right?
- [51:11]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes. We got the introduction from this amazing client, and then I went there, and then they wanted to meet Jean Luc, and we went there. We went back there together, like, a month and a half later. The point about why it's important to have a strategic partner when you want to be fast is that now we're looking at it with a totally different eye. Okay. Now, maybe one day there's going to be customer service, there's going to be financial backup, there's going to be legal protection. That changed the deal immediately. Any French VC would not have brought that to the table.
- [51:50]
Jean Luc Diard
I mean, I also have done acquisitions and things like that. And the worst thing also, which made a difference between Deckers and those are potential brands, was that we were not competing with any other brand within the portfolio. The portfolio was pretty wide, but there was no running brand. And you had a very deep, very, very deep motivation from Anil Martinez, the CEO, to be successful in the running world. So when you have the top guy that is deeply motivated into it, you know, you have more chances.
- [52:22]
Interviewer/Host
Okay, so it was clear to you that Decker should be your partner. But now how was it going to work? I mean, it was an acquisition, but we.
- [52:31]
Nicolas Mermoux
No, it was a minority investment.
- [52:34]
Interviewer/Host
Okay.
- [52:35]
Nicolas Mermoux
With the cash we needed to go through the next step and then another step.
- [52:40]
Jean Luc Diard
And it started then in 2012 with a 20% investment.
- [52:46]
Interviewer/Host
It was a step by step investments over time. But the idea was if this all worked out, eventually this will be a portfolio brand within Deckers.
- [52:57]
Nicolas Mermoux
Yes, exactly. And it looked like they would be at that time, very quickly. It looked like they would be the right company to run the business.
- [53:12]
Interviewer/Host
They were able to get you into rei, they were able to get you.
- [53:15]
Jean Luc Diard
Into, not immediately to such channels. The, the big priority was rhin specialty. I mean, because that's something that they knew would build the image. But putting us on the map really, really quickly in the US because we knew that time was the essence. So it was. We had to charge quickly before anyone would come.
- [53:35]
Interviewer/Host
You know, it's interesting because the first time I can remember really being conscious of Hokas, I saw them on my mom. Like I saw them because they were so comfortable and you know, and you saw them on people who were a little older. Was that something you noticed also in the US.
- [53:53]
Jean Luc Diard
What worked pretty well quickly from, let's say from a demographic standpoint, was that there were a lot of people that wanted to be active and that were facing chronical pain, whatever it was, I mean the joints, knees, back, et cetera. But they wanted to be active and that solved many of their issues. What we tried also, as we saw that the complementary thing was notably to have all those top athletes on the road, typically that we're still using lower profile shoes and so on to say use whatever you want on your race day. But as you need to train a lot, you can train more, you can train with less damage, etc. Weave those products, you've gone.
- [54:43]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, think about it. In 2012, 3 million in sales to over 2 billion in sales. I mean, it's pretty amazing. Did you, I Know, you thought of this as a brand that would appeal beyond just runners and specialists, that would be a mass consumer brand was this, I mean, could you have imagined that, that.
- [55:07]
Jean Luc Diard
When we discussed with Decker's group, we had, let's say we laid down various plans. The vision that we had was to become a 500 million company. I don't think we imagined that it could accelerate as quickly as it did. But once again this happened really because deccaeurs made set up the organization around it to make it work.
- [55:29]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, it's also interesting that a shoe that probably initially was dismissed as a trend. Oh, this is a trend. This, this ultra cushioning. I remember hearing that this, this rocker system has proven resilient. That it's not a trend.
- [55:45]
Nicolas Mermoux
Absolutely. And yes, because beyond the success of Hokia and the revenues generated, the concept and the technology, not exactly to the same level is gigantic.
- [55:59]
Guy Raz
Yeah.
- [56:00]
Interviewer/Host
When you think about, about, about the journey you took and where you ended up, I mean, you know, it could have died. Right. How much of where you got to with this do you attribute to the work you put in? The hard work, the grind and how much do you think had to do with luck and timing and just the opportunities that were out there in the world?
- [56:19]
Jean Luc Diard
I think we gave the right ingredients and that's what certainly we are proud of. That's why it's hard to say like 20% is due to that and 80% to this or whatever the vision was. Right. So that's one thing that we can be proud of. You know, you are only as good as the sum of the elements. And yeah, we can be proud of what decals has been able to do with it.
- [56:47]
Nicolas Mermoux
And now actually when we look back, as Jean Luc said, I think it also, beyond the running shoes, these new technologies created appetite for the sport of running. So the trail running is booming. It's amazing. It's a very fast growing sport today. But people are not afraid like before to run downhill. They don't crash their legs the way I was crashing mine like 19 years, 15, 16 years ago. It's also because it's now as fun and pleasant as maybe biking or skiing. And it's also a huge part of it, it's the technology.
- [57:27]
Jean Luc Diard
And the other thing that our story is extremely similar to what has happened in the bike industry. The bike industry traditionally was like Tour de France road racing bikes oriented. And then mountain bike, let's say, came doing fancy things, et cetera and starting to put the industry upside down. And those mountain bike companies ultimately were like the rebels and that's what you always have to have in industries. I mean to change things and then what you have to keep and which is always the challenge. How do you keep the challenger spirit moving it? How do you keep that? And you don't stay on your low rails and you keep on pushing and innovating and you need to keep that mindset all the time to move it.
- [58:18]
Guy Raz
There's Sean Lee Diard and Nicolas Mermoux, co founders of hoka. Both of them, by the way, have stayed involved with the brand and as athletes, neither of them show signs of slowing down. Jean Luc's Instagram shows him running up and down trails all over the world, and Nico has recently competed in ultra marathons in France, Switzerland and Thailand. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the Follow button on on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please sign up for my newsletter@guyraz.com or on substack. This episode was produced and researched by Romel Wood, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our engineers were Patrick Murray and Kwesi Lee. Our production staff also includes K. Casey Herman, Chris Messini, John Isabella, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Kerry Thompson, Catherine Cipher Norgill, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built this.