Kettle Chips: Cameron Healy. The Wild Bet That Made a Brand

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz
Episode: Kettle Chips: Cameron Healy. The Wild Bet That Made a Brand
Guest: Cameron Healy, Founder of Kettle Foods and Co-founder of Kona Brewing
Release Date: March 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the extraordinary journey of Cameron Healy, the visionary behind Kettle Chips and Kona Brewing Company. Guided by host Guy Raz, Cameron recounts how intuition, countercultural roots, and entrepreneurial risk-taking led him from communal living in Oregon to launching iconic food and beverage brands—sometimes leaping across continents rather than expanding stepwise. The episode highlights how perseverance, unconventional thinking, and humility fueled the brand’s improbable success, emphasizing both practical lessons and personal transformation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life, Counterculture, and the Seeds of Entrepreneurship

Timestamps: 07:11-13:38

• Communal Life and the Sikh Community:
  Cameron moved with his family to Salem, Oregon in the 1970s to live communally as part of a Sikh community.

  • Daily Routine: Rising at 3 a.m. for group yoga and meditation built both discipline and a “constructive rebellion.”
  • "I wasn't that employable the way I looked. And so that caused me to start a new business… in the natural food movement." (Cameron Healy, 08:31)

• Early Natural Foods Enterprise:

  • Started as an organic bakery distributor, then expanded into nuts, cheese, and bulk commodities, supported by a $10,000 loan negotiated over ski passes (13:38).
  • The nut business provided early entrepreneurial experience, particularly in operations and managing risk (he notably speculated on peanuts ahead of a drought, making his first real capital).

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2. The Birth of Kettle Chips

Timestamps: 16:03-27:20

• Origins of the Potato Chip Idea:
  Cameron was inspired not by a perfect beach epiphany, but by a journal article on the Maui Potato Chip Company (16:53).
  After meeting the owner, he realized the fabled 'Maui potatoes' actually came from Oregon—his home base.

• Trial and Error in Chip Making:

  • Leveraged peanut roasting fryers to experiment with potatoes—discovering that each variety fried differently.
  • “Every load of potatoes we would bring in would be a little different in the way they fried. It was completely trial and error.” (25:42)
  • Initial production was manual, using hand-fed slicers and night shifts to work around nut production (26:29).
  • Created the brand “Kettle Chips” after his original idea—“Pot Chips”—was advised against ("It can mean a lot of different things… it was a stupid idea." - 23:47).

• First Sales and Growth:

  • Manual, small-batch process; first bags sold for around $0.99 (27:31).
  • Early distribution relied entirely on store promotion and word of mouth—no marketing budget (28:11).

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3. Crisis and Grit

Timestamps: 29:28-33:33

• Rapid Expansion, Early Disaster:
  • A large Safeway order led to scaling up production, exposing gaps in quality control—resulting in rancid chips and the loss of a critical buyer.
  • “We blew it. And the reputation…” (32:17)
  • A near-fatal car accident soon after became a turning point, pulling him out of depression and inspiring resilience.
  • “That was kind of a wake-up. We were kind of blessed by not getting hurt... ok, we’re going to figure it out.” (32:55)

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4. The Wild Leap to the UK

Timestamps: 34:36-43:13

• An Unlikely Market Expansion:
  • In 1987, Cameron visited the UK and noticed a sophisticated “crisp” culture but no product like Kettle Chips (37:12).
  • Ignoring industry wisdom, he launched in the UK before expanding on the US East Coast—driven as much by personal curiosity as by strategy.
  • “It was naive. But I’m also a believer that really, very few good things happen without a level of naivety in the beginning.” (39:19)
  • Early UK rollout relied on small-scale placements and consumer feedback—products sold out at test locations (43:02).

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5. UK Breakthrough and Cultural Moments

Timestamps: 45:40-49:36

• Viral Success via Word of Mouth:

  • Initial slow sales in the UK flipped overnight as all major supermarket chains ordered after a grassroots buzz.
  • “Suddenly the product just switched on. It just word of mouth clicked and we just got deluged with orders.” (45:40)

• Organic Endorsements:

  • TV personalities like Ruby Wax and a now-famous tabloid shot of Princess Diana with Kettle Chips helped accelerate mystique and demand (“That’s better than the her HRH seal on the package.” - 47:29).
  • Emphasized the importance of pricing premium for profitability, influenced by UK partner Tim Meyer.

• Learning & Innovation:

  • The UK expansion, though risky, provided lessons in sales strategy, branding, and even product flavors that later helped growth in the US.
  • “The education we got doing business in the UK was absolutely key.” (48:43)

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6. Beyond Chips: Founding Kona Brewing

Timestamps: 50:28-56:57

• Identifying New Opportunities:

  • Inspired by England’s “real ales,” his son’s move to Hawaii, and the absence of local craft beer, Cameron co-founded Kona Brewing in 1995.
  • “It was an alternative to the industrial approach to making beer.” (51:14)
  • Faced tremendous logistical challenges (distribution, costs, taxes); business lost $20K/month for years.

• Turnaround and Scalability:

  • Shifted bottling to the mainland to reduce costs—profitable by 1999.
  • “It took three years to turn into a profitable business.” (56:45)

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7. Professionalization, Exit, and Legacy

Timestamps: 57:32-61:30

• Scaling Up and Selling the Brand:

  • Brought in private equity (Catterton Partners), professional management, and eventually sold Kettle Foods for $320 million+ after 27 years.
  • “I have no regrets. It was a good journey. I realized that my time had come.” (59:50)

• Post-Sale Reflection:

  • Walked away intentionally, rather than remaining under new management.

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8. Philanthropy and Reflection

Timestamps: 61:30–end (~64:08)

• Healy Foundation:

  • Established Healy’s foundation, focusing on environmental causes, domestic abuse, and more.
  • Foundation to dispense its entire endowment (approx. $75-80 million) by 2029.
  • “It’s been a whole game changer. It’s kind of turbocharged our organization.” (62:09)

• Wisdom on Success:

  • “You can’t be overtly risk averse if you’re an entrepreneur… At the core is having great teams of people. … It’s the people that… really executed and made these various companies work.” (63:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Naivety as a Virtue:
  "Very few good things happen without a level of naivety in the beginning. Otherwise, if you knew how hard it would be, you’d never do it."
  — Cameron Healy, 39:19

• On Grit and Recovery:
  "We were kind of blessed by not getting hurt. And it kind of jolted me out of my… depression about where we were. So it just said, okay, you know, we’re going to figure it out."
  — Cameron Healy, 32:55

• On Embracing Change and Letting Go:
  "I have no regrets. It was a good journey. I realized that my time had come.”
  — Cameron Healy, 59:50

• On Entrepreneurship’s Balance:
  "You can't be overtly risk averse... At the core is having great teams of people… it's really so many great people that heart and soul, they committed themselves to make that happen."
  — Cameron Healy, 63:28

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 07:11: Start of Cameron’s involvement with the Oregon Sikh community
• 16:53: The real origin story of the Maui Potato Chip inspiration
• 25:42: Learning the art and science of hand-cooked chips
• 32:17: The failed Safeway launch and its fallout
• 34:36: Motorcycle trip to the UK that sparked the leap
• 39:19: On why naivety is essential for entrepreneurs
• 45:40: UK word-of-mouth breakthrough, supermarket orders
• 47:29: Princess Diana/Kettle Chips pop culture moment
• 51:14: Kona Brewing origin story
• 56:45: When Kona Brewing finally became profitable
• 59:20: The sale of Kettle Foods, $320 million+ acquisition

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Episode Takeaways

• Success is often the product of unconventional thinking, calculated risk, and the humility to learn from hard mistakes.
• The culture around a brand—and the mystique engineered (or, in this case, serendipitously achieved)—can be as important as the product itself.
• It's never just about one person: teams, community, luck, and timing all play critical roles.
• Letting go—whether of a company, a communal ideology, or a hands-on role—is sometimes the final, essential entrepreneurial act.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

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[Cameron Healy]

Well, it was similar to what we'd experienced in the us People started talking and then there was a photo Princess Di with a bag of Kettle chips and a grocery bag. She would go shop in those days.

[Guy Raz]

Can't beat that. That's better than her hrh, you know, seal on the side of the pac.

[Cameron Healy]

And so it just, it started to get this mystique.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome to How I Built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today, how Cameron Healy built a $300 million brand by making potato chips in Sal, Oregon and finding a market for them 5,000 miles away. A typical trajectory for a food brand goes something like this. First you start small, maybe regional, and then you slowly expand across the US and only once you're established, maybe years later, you try going international. Well, today's guest, Cameron Healy, pretty much skipped the whole middle part because when his company, Kettle Chips was still barely known outside the West Coast, Cameron made a decision that for most people would make no sense. Cameron lived in Salem, Oregon, but he decided to expand sales of his thick cut hand cooked potato chips in the United Kingdom. And if you've ever spent time in the uk, you might know what that means. Britain doesn't just have potato chips. It has an entire culture of crisps, endless varieties, endless flav. Not just salt and vinegar, but prawn cocktail, Marmite, pigs in blankets, grilled steak. It's one of the most competitive, most discerning snack markets in the world. But Cameron had a hunch that kettle chips with that extra crunchy kind of rustic style would stand out. And he was right. The brand took off in the UK first, and only later did it expand across the United States, where it eventually became one of the biggest natural potato chip brands in the country. Now owned by Campbell's. In many ways, this is a story about improbably long distances. Kettle Chips was based in Oregon, but the inspiration came from a trip Cameron took to Hawaii. And about a decade into building the chip business, another trip to Hawaii sparked yet another idea, this time for a beer brand, Kona Brewing. For a while, Cameron was juggling both chips and beer, logging thousands of miles between Oregon, Hawaii, and his most successful early market, the uk. And through plenty of anxious moments, Cameron seems somehow mostly undaunted. And part of that might go back to his upbringing. His dad was an entrepreneur who turned a simple rope tow and warming hut in Bend, Oregon, and into what became the Mount Bachelor ski resort. But another part of Cameron's grace under pressure comes from his many years of meditation and yoga and eventually his deep involvement in the Sikh community. In the early 1970s, Cameron ran an organic bakery near Eugene, Oregon. And then a few years later, he relocated with his wife and young family to Salem, where he continued living communally as a Sikh.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, it was, in a way, it was kind of the post Woodstock 70s. It was certainly trending. And, you know, from my experience, it was very empowering because it was a wonderful sense of purpose in creating kind of an alternative culture. Alternative economy, you know, is a form of rebellion, but constructive rebellion is what I would call it.

[Guy Raz]

Well, so let me just imagine this. You get there in 1973 to Salem, Oregon, and you and your wife, who are sort of young, white family, but you're wearing turbans and you're dressed like. Like you would be a Sikh. And was that. And your kids were also wearing turbans or. Yeah. And was that. I don't know. I'm just imagining a tiny place like Salem in 1973. Did anybody notice you? I'm sure they did. Do you remember the reactions that you got?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, certainly it wasn't sort of the best way to fit in. But that wasn't really our goal. Our goal was to, you know, bring yoga and meditation to that community. And one of the requirements to be in the community is you had to get up at three in the morning and do two and a half hours of group yoga and meditation.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Cameron Healy]

You know, builds a lot of character. I was, you know, wasn't that employable the way I looked? And so that caused me to start a new business, which was, you know, the natural food movement, which was growing and a lot of products were being developed. And I, of course, was exposed to that with the bakery in Eugene. So I decided to become a distributor of Natural foods.

[Guy Raz]

And just to clarify, so you. This is the mid-70s. The sort of. The natural foods movement was really starting. It was coming out of the hippie movement and there was a kind of back to the land and whole grains, and you were seeing people making products and you thought, hey, I could distribute them. I could get all these products and then distribute them to stores in the area. That was the idea you had.

[Cameron Healy]

Exactly. I knew the stores, I had the contacts. And so I talked my father into loaning me a little bit of the money to buy an old refrigerated truck. It was the only time I ever borrowed money from him. And I started distributing raw milk. And so it was initially dairy oriented. And then I started bringing snack food makers. And ultimately I had a weekly truck that would come up from Southern California with these products that I would distribute.

[Guy Raz]

And you had a refrigerator truck that you yourself would drive all over Oregon,

[Cameron Healy]

Seattle to Southern Oregon, I5 corridor.

[Guy Raz]

And that probably took you a couple days, right?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, yeah, that took a good chunk of the week. But, you know, I needed to put food on the table and it ultimately I gave. Turned over my ownership to the, you know, the community ownership. By then we had. We were living communally, so eventually, you know, we were employing quite a number of people. And this was a lifestyle that fulfilled, you know, so many of our dreams and for, you know, living in this idyllic counterculture manner. It wasn't until 1978 where the bubble kind of popped a little bit and.

[Guy Raz]

The bubble of what? Of natural foods.

[Cameron Healy]

The sort of the communal idyllic vision of what we're.

[Guy Raz]

What. What happened?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, the natural foods as a movement was growing tremendously. There was lots of new products and it was scaling and challenging these, you know, these grassroots business people who had had no prior training to adapt and. And run these businesses properly. But what, what ended up happening? And I, you know, I was the progenitor of all the businesses in this community. I was always coming up with the next vision and next products. And I think that I was just a threat to kind of what was a movement to slow it down and make it a little more conservative. So I was summarily dismissed from the businesses. I was basically fired. And of course there was no, no severance money or anything. So I was. With four kids and no, no income. I was, wow, kind of out the door.

[Guy Raz]

Did you feel angry or resentful when that happened?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, I did. I definitely did. But I was also still very committed to the overall vision and movement of the community. And so you know, I sucked it up, but I had to find some income and pretty quickly.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, but I mean, at that point, you know, you had experience in the natural foods business, so, I mean, were you thinking that you could still do something with that, like maybe sell your. Your own natural foods or what?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, I wasn't sure what exactly I was going to do. I was basically living by my wits and my previous experiences. But I knew that I was going to start a business that was going to be my own for my own ownership. I wasn't sure exactly how it would evolve. My main priority was just to get enough income to feed my family.

[Guy Raz]

Right.

[Cameron Healy]

So that was distributing cheese, bulk cheese, which within a year I started bulk nuts. But I had to get some working capital, and I got to know a local banker in Salem who happened to be a avid skier in Mount Bachelor. And so I talked him into giving me a $10,000 working capital loan. And I sweetened the pot with a bunch of free passes to Mount Bachelor. He shouldn't have been loaning me money. I was at complete risk. There was.

[Guy Raz]

And he. He loaned you money to start a business. You called it the NS Khalsa Company. And the business, because you had been for about a year, distributing, as you say, distributing cheese and nuts. And this business was going to be what?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, it was. Yeah, the nut distribution evolved into starting to roast nuts to add value.

[Guy Raz]

So you would, instead of buying nuts that are already packaged or ready to be, you would produce your own, roast your own nuts, and then sell them.

[Cameron Healy]

Okay. I managed with that, some of that loan money. I purchased a. Probably a 1930s dry roaster and started roasting bulk nuts, mostly a lot of peanuts for grind your own peanut butter in natural food stores. And that ultimately evolved into making trail mixes and then ultimately making our own branded peanut butter and almond butter.

[Guy Raz]

How was the nut business? I mean, we've. Was it successful? Were you doing very well? Like, how did you know? Two, three years in? Did you find it to be challenging or did you start to really see some results?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, it was, yeah, I think by, let's call it maybe 1980, you know, I had a little, nice little factory in Salem with a warehouse. I had a broker. I was buying all my peanuts through. And he tipped me off that there was going to be a big crop failure that year because of drought. And so I went very bullish. I speculated, which was really crazy, and I contracted way, way more nuts than I actually was currently producing. And sure enough, I was sitting on all these valuable contracts in the Market for peanuts essentially tripled. So I ended up selling truckloads of, you know, 50,000 pounds of peanuts. And I was making, like, $25,000 a truckload. And that effort capitalized my little business, which prior to that was extremely thin on working capital.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so you've got this nuts, mainly nuts business. And I'm not sure this is really the. If it's apocryphal or maybe it is the story, I don't know. But from what I've read around 1982, so you're about four years into the business. You are in Hawaii, and you are on the beach, and you have some of these. Someone gives you homemade potato chips, which, if anyone's made homemade, you should make them. They're amazing. You just use a mandolin. You slice them on the mandolin, you fry them. I've done it for dinner parties. People are amazed when you give them homemade potato chips. They're delicious. You tried these, and you already, from what I understand, you were thinking about what other products could I sell? And this was like a light bulb moment. Is that true? Is that what happened?

[Cameron Healy]

It's a good story. Not exactly true. I had read about the Maui Potato Chip Company. I'd read an article in the Wall Street Journal that got my attention, planted a seed. And so I was considering the idea of making handmade potato chips because we had oil roasters we made nuts in and. But yeah, I went. Went to Hawaii for a vacation, but also to check out the Maui Potato Chip Company.

[Guy Raz]

Interesting. But it's a. It's. This is the early 80s. This was a potato chip that was thicker, crunchier. Right. It didn't taste like a. A lay's chip, like, had more flavor. And it was. And it was totally different from anything else out there at the time.

[Cameron Healy]

Exactly. And I called up this gentleman and told him who I was. And I'd like.

[Guy Raz]

Is the owner of the Maui Chip Company.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, I'd like to meet him. And he said, sure, come over. So I showed up this little. This little industrial estate. It was in this little metal building. And he came out and greeted me. Very nice man, Filipino man. I had a grandchild on his hip, couple dogs running around, and had this little factory. He was making potato chips. And, you know, I got to ask him a few questions. He would not invite me into the factory, though. I never got to see how he made them. But the one big takeaway was I remember reading the article, and it talked about these special Maui potatoes he was using. And I said, so tell me about These Maui potatoes. You're growing potatoes here? And he laughed. He goes, no, that was a misunderstanding. There's no regular potatoes grow in Hawaii. All of my potatoes come from Klamath Falls, Oregon.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Cameron Healy]

So the light bulb went off. Well, if this guy can make such a splash and be in the Wall Street Journal and have this kind of cult following and he's bringing his potatoes all the way from Oregon and I'm based in Oregon. I can do this.

[Guy Raz]

When we come back in just a moment, Cameron learns how to fry potato chips through careful trial and error until one error ends in disaster. Stay with us. Hey guys, I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built this. When I first started how I built this, one of the very first tangible things I ever made was a stack of business cards. Nothing fancy, just my name, the logo and the title. But I remember holding those cards in my hand and thinking, wow, this is real now. And that moment actually inspired me to think bigger. If I can make business cards, why not make something for listeners? T shirts, sweatshirts, stickers. You know, things people could wear and share and see out in the world. Well, that's exactly what Vistaprint helps small businesses do. Turn ideas into real tangible products you can be proud of. Vistaprint supports you at every step from choosing the right product to getting the design just right. They've got you covered whether you need a small tweak or a full on rebrand. Vistaprint offers design services that fit your style and your budget. Vistaprint print your possible. Right now, new customers get 20% off with code [e-mail] have you guys heard

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[Guy Raz]

Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's early 1982 and Cameron has just met with the owner of the Maui Potato Chip Company in Hawaii. And after that meeting, he's convinced that making potato chips in Oregon is the best way to grow his business.

[Cameron Healy]

Chips are very high turnover product category. People are also very committed to their brand, particularly with potato chips. So that was that had been registered in the back of my mind a few years before, and I enjoyed the nut business, but I knew it would always be limited geographically. And I also knew, I sensed that natural foods would grow beyond just the natural food store. It would eventually go into the mainstream. And I wanted. I wanted a product that could bridge that gap and be in the supermarkets.

[Guy Raz]

Because you're thinking, hey, this could be interesting, this crunchy small batch potato chip, right? Because again, potato chips, like, I grew up on ruffles and, you know, big bags of ruffles and, you know, Frito lays. And that is basically from what I. Now I dove into potato chips while I was researching the story. And I guess the way those are made is it's like a continuous fry process. So basically the chips run through a vat of hot oil, and then they're getting dried and they're on a conveyor belt and they're very thin and. But when you eat a. Like one of these Hawaiian chips, it's totally different. So you go back to Oregon and, like, with this idea sort of percolating now, really at thinking, okay, I got to figure out how to do this.

[Cameron Healy]

Well, actually, on that, I'm just trying to remember sequences. I had already created a brand on paper, and I had spent, I remember, twelve hundred dollars with a graphic designer in Salem, Oregon, which, at that time seemed like an absolute fortune. I was going to originally call the product pot chips.

[Guy Raz]

Pot, like, because it's in a kettle. Pot.

[Cameron Healy]

A pot, yeah. So I thought that would be a good. A good name. And so you thought it would be

[Guy Raz]

good calling it pot chips?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah. I thumbs down. Everyone said that that word, that's just not the word you want to use. It can mean a lot of different things, you know, that it was a stupid idea. So I went. When I got back from Hawaii, I went to this same designer. I said, I want you to same design. I just want you to change pot to kettle. That's how kettle chips became a brand.

[Guy Raz]

So here's my question. You were roasting peanuts, right? And so was. Was it sort of a. You know, this is like in an era before you could just go on YouTube and figure out how to do things right. There weren't easily, like, Internet manuals. Like, today we have had founders on the show. Like, I had no idea how to make clothes. I just went on YouTube and learned about it and then started a brand. Like, literally, these are stories we tell today, which is crazy. Was it a big leap to go from roasting nuts to learning how to fry potato slices and make them into Kettle cooked potato chips. Was that a big sort of leap or was it easy?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, it, it was and it wasn't. It wasn't because we had these fryers we knew for oil temperatures. And it was a big leap because potatoes don't behave like nuts. Behave. It seemed like every load of potatoes we would bring in would be a little different in the way they fried. It was completely trial and error. I had a little team and we started in the late spring buying russet Burbank potatoes. And we chose the russet Burbank potato because it produces the highest natural sugars. It wants to caramelize with the temperatures and you get a darker colored product, but there's more flavor.

[Guy Raz]

Interesting. Did you have equipment that automated any of this or were you literally hand peel, was it teams of people hand peeling potatoes and then hand slicing them on a mandolin and then hand frying them?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, in the very beginning we only made potato chips at night because our factory was making nuts during the day. And so I used, we had a.2 oil fryers which was a VAT maybe four and a half feet long by four feet wide. And I purchased a food service potato slicer which was not adequate, but we made it work. And we would hand feed the potatoes. We bought them in hundred in fifty pound bags.

[Guy Raz]

And this is a four foot vat of hot oil.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah. You would monitor the temperature of the oil and when you slice the potatoes in, the temperature drops and then it gradually comes up. And what we later learned was that temperature variation is what really creates the character of a hand cooked chip and the, that extra crunchiness. So starting out we could make 40 cases a night, so 12 bags to a case. But it was all, all very much by hand. And I have, I have the photograph that shows me holding the first, first two bags of kettle chips off the line. This young guy in a turban in late July of 1982 with a big.

[Guy Raz]

That's you.

[Cameron Healy]

Big grin on my face.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, yeah. And imagine, I mean this is a premium product, right? Because it's handmade potato chips. And how much, you remember, how much did a bag cost in 1983?

[Cameron Healy]

Oh boy, less than a dollar, I think. You know, I think $0.99 was, was a very sellable number, but probably still

[Guy Raz]

like a bag of lays was 25 cents right at the time, maybe.

[Cameron Healy]

You know how much? I don't think we're that much of a premium from Lays.

[Guy Raz]

Okay.

[Cameron Healy]

I would say we were probably 25% premium.

[Guy Raz]

And how were you making sure people tried them and Bought them. Like, what were you doing to get people to. To buy one of these bags? Were they put by the register? Like, what was the strategy initially?

[Cameron Healy]

Guy? There was no marketing. We just put them on the shelf. We did. Within six months. We started doing tastings in stores and things when we had more capacity. But initially the stores promoted them.

[Guy Raz]

So there were the Maui chips in Hawaii that were probably only available in Hawaii. Was there anything like Kettle chips in the U.S. i mean, I know there's. There's Cape Cod brand. I don't know if that was around yet. It might have been. But was there. Were there other, as far as you knew, at that time, anyone else making small batch, sort of thick cut, super crispy, crunchy potato chips?

[Cameron Healy]

There were some makers in the East. Cape Cod had started, I don't know, probably a year or less than a year before us. And so they existed. There was one in New Orleans, I think, called Zaps.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, Zaps. It's still around.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah. You know, they started about the same time we did, I believe.

[Guy Raz]

Got it. Okay, so it's the summer of 1982 and you guys are making 40 cases of potato chips a night. So what was the next step? Like, were you thinking about expanding or making more?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, so I talked our landlord into building a building.

[Guy Raz]

This is in Salem, Oregon.

[Cameron Healy]

In Salem. Which he did.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Cameron Healy]

I then got a bank loan. I ordered all new equipment, and by, I think By December of 82, we had moved our production into this new factory which could produce a whole lot more Kettle chips. And so by January or so, Safeway Northern California division came calling and they were very enthusiastic and they wanted to put them in all their stores. But to fulfill that, we had to go to a second shift, a night shift. And I was actually in San Francisco on a certain day getting ready with my family to fly to India. I was going to make my trip to India.

[Guy Raz]

Because you were still a Sikh.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, I was still a Sikh.

[Guy Raz]

Practicing. Yeah.

[Cameron Healy]

One of my main people at our factory in Salem, Jim Green, you know, there were no cell phones in those days. And I was at the terminal waiting to catch a Pan Am flight and I got paged and it was my guy, Jim, and sounding pretty stressed out. But when safely Northern California got their product, they tested them and the oil was rancid in the chips and they were rejecting the whole truckload. We didn't understand the management of fryer oil and how it degrades. And it just so happened when we went to the second shift, that threw the balance off. And so I was literally about to step on this flight, and I had to tell my guy. I said, I'm sorry. You got to figure it out. And so I went to India amidst this kind of. This disaster. You know, I. It was hard to make phone calls, even from India, but I was able to kind of stay in touch. But we had to take a lot of product back. And, yeah, by the time I got back, you know, we had shut down the plant. Demand had kind of evaporated for the moment, and it was kind of an existential situation because I had taken out some large loans to set up this new plant. But fortunately, the nut operation made a small profit and it buoyed up. You know, Kettle Chips would have never made it had not had the nut operation.

[Guy Raz]

I imagine Safeway canceled the. Its contract. They did not come back to you. Yeah. So you. You had one shot with Safeway and you blew it.

[Cameron Healy]

We blew it. And the reputation. And so I went up to Seattle for a little regional natural food trade show to talk to our customers to tell them that we were fixing the problem. And on the drive back, my then wife was driving and I was pretty, pretty depressed about the whole situation and pretty down about it. And my wife fell asleep at the wheel on i5. And the car went out of control and skidded across the southbound lanes.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Cameron Healy]

And then rolled up on the very outside onto a grass bank with all the windows breaking out of the car. And we were all fortunately, okay. I was bit bruised and battered, but wow. So that was kind of a wake up. We were kind of blessed by not getting hurt. And it kind of jolted me out of my, you know, bit of depression about where we were. And so it just said, okay, you know, we. We're going to figure it out. And so we got it together and started making good product again, again. And we managed to get through that period.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. All right. So by the time, I think the company, as I understand in like 1983, overall, was doing 3 million in sales. In 1986, the company was doing 4.5 million in sales, which is nice, it's growth, but it's not explosive growth. But I think it makes sense now hearing about the challenges and the crises that you face with Kettle Chips because you took on a lot of debt to finance it. I want to turn now to 1987, because this is sort of the backdrop to where you are. You got Kettle Chips, you've recovered from the crisis, but it's still a pretty small regional brand. And you go on a trip to England a Motorcycle trip with your 19 year old son in 1987. And this is going to become a very important trip. But you were just going there to have a vacation, am I right? To cycle around Europe or motorcycle around Europe?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah. In general, things were by then going well with our Kettle Foods operation. I had a good team, I had management team. I had never been to Europe and I wanted, I wanted to sort of experience the food cultures of Europe. That was an interest and also kind of a coming of coming of age trip with my son who was 19. And in a way, without admitting it, it was sort of a coming of age myself. I wanted to get out into the world and explore it a little more.

[Guy Raz]

And I guess it was during that trip that you met up with an American guy that was living in the UK named Tim Meyer, who I guess you had been introduced to a little earlier. And I'm jumping a little bit ahead here, but I guess you ended up kind of starting to talk with Tim about bringing Kettle Chips to the uk. And I mean, how did that idea start? Like, what's the story?

[Cameron Healy]

Right. Well, Tim was a gentleman from Salem, Oregon originally, but he'd gone on to become a banker in London. And we hit it off. He was a really interesting gentleman and he had left the banking world very recently in London and was figuring out what he's gonna do next. But yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And how do the two of you start to talk about maybe bringing Kettle chips to England to start selling them there?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, you know, being interested in the food cultures, I was eager to, you know, look at some stores, look at some what they call the crisp market in, in England. Tim made a list of stores to go to and collect certain brands of English crisps. I remember we were all at a big table with all these bags spread out and opening them and tasting them and talking about the flavors. But, you know, I began to feel, you know, kind of a cultural change afoot. What drove our, the natural food movement, particularly on the west coast of the US A lot of those lifestyle values around, you know, health and fitness and all those things. I started to sense that there, that was just beginning in the UK and London particularly. And that Kettle Chips as a natural foods product, it would be an opportunity to really pioneer a category.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, I want to break this down a little bit because you're coming off a year of doing around $4.5 million in overall sales. You're a very small company and Kettle Chips is a very small brand. And you are in England in 1987 and you're noticing there is eight. And anyone who's been there will see there's like ham and pickle flavor and beef and mustard flavored chips. All these, they have had weird potato chip flavors for a long time. Crisps. Right. What they call crisps. So you see this and you think, hey, there's nothing like kettle chips here and maybe we can enter this market. Is that, that's what you start to think?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah. Being an entrepreneur, I saw an opportunity. I mean, it was a, would be a very large leap to pull something like that off, but I felt that the brand, the product would have potentially resonance.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, okay, that I understand. But this is, here's what I don't understand. And I say this because this is going to be pivotal to your business. But 1987, you are a tiny regional brand in Oregon and Washington state, so thousands of miles away from England. This is before the Internet. This is before cell phones, before email. This is like fax machine era. Right? You're thinking, hey, the next logical move for us is to go to the uk. I would have thought somebody would have said, cameron, you know, maybe you should think about expanding to the east coast or maybe the Midwest of the United States first. Like, why would you even think about going to the uk? Like, did anybody, anything in your brain say, you know, maybe we should expand the US First?

[Cameron Healy]

Good insight. And, you know, my, my best answer to that is I really enjoyed being in Europe. I really enjoyed in the uk and I had a hunger for more. I felt there was an opportunity, but I also wanted to have an excuse to have to keep going back.

[Guy Raz]

Fair enough. Okay.

[Cameron Healy]

But again, not a good, not a good business strategy. But yeah, it was, it was naive. It was completely naive. But I'm also a believer that really very few good things happen without a level of naivety in the beginning. Otherwise, if you knew how hard it would be, you never do it.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. So you decide. I want to go into it's. And it. It actually on so many levels. I should now play devil's advocate to my previous argument. On so many levels, this actually makes sense because there was a potato chip culture in the UK that was stronger than maybe anywhere else in the world because people went to pubs, they drank beer, they want a salty snack, and you. And if you go to a pub, there's always a big wall of crisps that you can border and they'll, you know, or get a nice pint of beer, some salty crisps. Great. So in many ways this actually made a lot of sense because you were going to introduce this interesting, different kind of potato chip and into a culture that was already primed to want to like this thing.

[Cameron Healy]

But I also felt that because of that, that tendency for the product to generate through word of mouth, this kind of mystique, I somehow felt that this would be very possible in the UK and that its population was very concentrated.

[Guy Raz]

But the challenges now are, they're insurmountable in my mind. Like you've gotta now find a place to make them and find distribution channels and like you have no. So where did you start? I mean, because I should say you launched this thing less than two years later in the UK in 1989. But until you get to that point, how do you start to make this into a reality?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, in the last couple days that my son and I were in the uk, we were in London and we agreed that the following spring I would come back to London and we would investigate this with more seriousness. So I went back, you know, got back involved in life and business in, I think, January or so, I went and bought a suit and tie. I hadn't owned one because I figured you do business in England, you got to dress up. And got on a plane and packed some samples of kettle chips and flew over. And Tim had organized a meeting with a potato supplier up in the Norfolk region, which is northeast of London. A couple hours, we'd also made contact with a company called Derwent Valley Foods. They had begun making tortilla chips, the first tortilla chips in the uk, but doing pretty well with their brand.

[Guy Raz]

And anyway, what was their brand called?

[Cameron Healy]

Phileas Fogg was their brand.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, I remember those. Right. Named after the guy from the Jules Verne book. But I remember that brand.

[Cameron Healy]

Phileas Bogg.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cameron Healy]

They had their own distribution company and Tim had made a connection with a small group of convenience stores inside London train stations. And they'd agreed to let. Let us put kettle chips, display them. We give them the product for free and they could keep all the revenue, but they had to give us be willing to be interviewed about what their experience was. And so all the product sold out in all three stores that first weekend. And we, we had very positive feedback from each of the managers. And so that was the experience, extent of our research. We said, okay, we're the consumer wants the product over here.

[Guy Raz]

And on the strength of that, I guess you go to a food convention in London.

[Cameron Healy]

They were introduced at the food convention.

[Guy Raz]

And so was there significant demand to order these bags of chips from the get go?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, we, you know, we didn't know. Our main goal was to set up a network of independent distributors, small distributors, to get our products initially, the smaller stores. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Okay. So from what I understand you initially, the first few months, you managed to get small distribution, mainly on the shelves at Heathrow Airport, which is actually a great place to be. Then things went quiet for a while. There were no reorders for some time, which, from what I read, made you quite nervous.

[Cameron Healy]

It did. We through these small distributors, we got initial production, but then there weren't new orders coming because we had no marketing. You know, we were counting on the consumers discovering the product on the shelf. And so we didn't really anticipate, though, how quiet things would be, but it went quiet and, you know, I had literally bet the farm with loans to set up a factory over there. And I figured either it's just going to take time for word of mouth and then it will take off, or we've misjudged this and they don't want to pay a premium price and. Or maybe they don't want the product, but it was one of the two. And so, yeah, I was sweating bullets.

[Guy Raz]

When we come back in July, just a moment. As kettle chip starts to take hold in the uk, Cameron decides to launch a new venture about as far from London as you can get. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 1989 and Cameron has risked his whole company by expanding into the uk. But with no marketing budget, he's counting on word of mouth for people to discover his kettle chips.

[Cameron Healy]

You know, some orders started coming in, but they were small. And the beginning of June, suddenly the product just switched on. It just word of mouth clicked and we just got deluged with orders. And that's when all five of the supermarket chains all called in that same week. They all wanted it. They all saw it as a symbol of this kind of new wave of natural foods that they wanted to get into.

[Guy Raz]

Did people know that it was an American brand? Was that part of what, what made it exciting?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, I think, I think it was evident it was American brand. It had. The package was, however, adapted to the UK somewhat, but we still called them kettle chips, not kettle crisps.

[Guy Raz]

So it's interesting because the brand grew very, very fast in the UK and it, and it was, it took off like a rocket. It took off and it very quickly surpassed the sales you were doing in. In the U.S. you were selling more kettle chips in the UK, much more than you were selling in the U.S.

[Cameron Healy]

yeah, we had jumped over the ocean, you know, and skipped the east coast.

[Guy Raz]

And I think there was like a TV host in the UK at the time, an American woman who lived there named Ruby Wax, who was a very popular TV show. And I think she, she always had kettle chips like she was eating them and she wasn't even paid. She wasn't like a paid influencer. She would just eat them on her show. Right.

[Cameron Healy]

Well, it was similar to what we'd experienced in the US where we got product placement, not anything that we'd engineered. And so people started talking and then there was a photo. Princess Di with a bag of kettle chips in a grocery bag. She would go shop in those days.

[Guy Raz]

Can't beat that. That's better than the her hrh, you know, seal on the side of the package. Yeah.

[Cameron Healy]

And so it just, you know, it started to get this mystique and then we, Tim Meyer became ever more involved and he has a finance background. He insisted on putting a very, a more premium price on the product than I would have. He said, well, if it takes off, you know, we will be able to gain profitability much quicker. And so it. But it did. And we had to keep expanding the factory and buying more equipment. And those were big investments. But we were able to, you know, we had a small banking relationship, but largely we were self funded in our growth, which was pretty amazing actually, I

[Guy Raz]

would think the success of this product in the uk, it's like almost like a backdoor way to expand in the US did that then make it easier, easier for you to say to go to a Kroger or you know, another supermarket brand, say, hey, do you guys want our product? Or did they start to come to you because they had heard about this product in the uk?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, I think less so that, more so. We had a way more sophisticated sales team in the UK and so, you know, we ultimately got to the, you know, the east coast and did well. But I think the education we got doing business in the UK was absolutely key.

[Guy Raz]

And you probably also had to or had to, but you probably introduced like some unusual flavors in Britain, right. To for that, like ham and pickle or.

[Cameron Healy]

We did, you know, I mean, we didn't go totally crazy, but yeah, flavors we wouldn't do in the US but actually one of the most successful flavors even today is the crinkle cut in the US Salt and pepper and that flavor.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Cameron Healy]

That flavor we originally pioneered in the UK and then created a version in

[Guy Raz]

the US okay, let's now pivot to something so totally different, and I guess not weird, but you are seeing incredible success with kettle chips in the uk. You take another family vacation to Hawaii. This is in around 1993. And while you're there, I guess you. This is sort of the craft beer boom is just gonna start at this moment. And you are from Oregon. It's a long standing craft beer tradition in Oregon. And you, I'm assuming, love craft beer. But you're there and you realize, hey, no one's making craft beer in Hawaii. Why don't we do this? Like, you've got this whole business, Kettle. I mean, were you just restless? Did you feel like, okay, I've done that, I need to start something new?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, it actually has a link all the way back to my time in England in that being a yogi and a Sikh, you didn't drink alcohol. But while I was beginning to transition out of that and I discovered real ales in England, and with Tim, we would go to his neighborhood pub and have our planning sessions and enjoy a pint. And so coming back to Oregon, I became aware of the craft brewing movement, which really was analogous almost to the natural food movement. It was an alternative to the industrial approach to making beer. And yeah, my son had. Same son that I went to Europe with. The motorcycle had gone to.

[Guy Raz]

This is your son's spoon, right?

[Cameron Healy]

Spoon, yes.

[Guy Raz]

And is spoon his nickname or is that his real name?

[Cameron Healy]

Is his nickname, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Okay.

[Cameron Healy]

And he had gone to Hawaii on vacation with his Portland girlfriend and didn't come back. They said they found paradise and they found jobs on the big island of Hawaii in Kona. And I decided to come over for Thanksgiving and we rented a large house on this bay in South Kona. But while there, I just had this epiphany that I had to figure out how to live part time, not only in Hawaii, but on that bay in that specific area. It spoke to my spiritual self that by then was no longer a spirit. But out of that same trip, there was no beer being brewed in Hawaii and very little craft beer being imported. And I just, you know, talked to my son. I said, why don't we together start a brewery and I'll. I'll mentor you.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Cameron Healy]

So I contracted an advisor in Portland to design the brewing equipment.

[Guy Raz]

And what. I'm just curious, what was the idea of, I mean, Hawaii, I love Hawaii. I live there in a second, but it doesn't produce Hops or malt? I think it's too tropical to produce those two things. What would a signal like a Hawaiian beer? I'm thinking like a, like a crisp lager. Right. Like that you have outdoors when you're like a Mexican beer a little bit. Was that the idea you had? Like what would a Hawaiian beer tastes like?

[Cameron Healy]

Well, an impression again. Another Hawaiian impression was when I was 15 years old, I went to Hawaii for the first time, Waikiki, with my family and I became aware of Primo Beer, which was the beer of Hawaii. It was a big deal in those days and by the time we started, Primo didn't exist. It had been bought out and left the market. And I just sensed that there was one. Not unlike launching Kettle chips in the uk, There was a timing window to pioneer making local craft beer with a Hawaiian brand that would have that mystique. Not unlike Primo beer.

[Guy Raz]

There are a lot of challenges of distributing beer at least at that time in Hawaii, because even though Hawaii is, you know, each island is small, it's like 270 miles from Kona all the way to Kauai. And you've got to distribute the beer across the islands. It's very expensive. I think the taxes on liquor and alcohol in Hawaii are very high. A lot of challenges. My biggest question about the challenges is you were the CEO of Kettle, you've got a plant in Salem, you've got a thriving business in the UK and you're starting a beer company with your son. So were you flying like Kona to Salem to London to Salem to Kona? Like was that your life?

[Cameron Healy]

You know, by that point we had a really good team in the UK and we had a good team in Oregon and I was able to, you know, have a little bit of arm's length role. But also having been a yogi, I still do yoga and meditation. That always balance. That kept me in a healthy mindset and helped the stress from overwhelming me, particularly in high risk periods. But we got the, the brewery open 95, we produced the first beer. I thought, you know, we could figure out this manufacturing thing in Hawaii. But I quickly became aware of how expensive it is to manufacturer in Hawaii and why. Why there weren't any beer producers.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Cameron Healy]

In Hawaii, but it kind of plateaued at a certain sales that causing it to lose about $20,000 a month. And this went on not for months, but for several years.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. So, so what happened? I mean obviously we know Kona Brewing turned into a successful brand. So. So what turned it around? I mean, I mean, $20,000 a month is a serious amount of money to be losing.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah. And I was the one that had to cover the cost. I think it got very stressful for my son. He did a good job getting it to a certain, certain place, but at a certain point he moved, moved off island, left the business. And I recruited a young, young guy in Portland that I, we worked together and it was, you know, it was tough this first six months, but then we made some key decisions to move the bottle, part of the production to the mainland, find a good contract producer, because that's where we were losing our shirt.

[Guy Raz]

You know, it's interesting. I know, I mean, that you start the brand. The brand officially launches in 1995 and it was sold in 2010 and.

[Cameron Healy]

Partially sold.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, partially sold. But it sounds like it's still a tough business that, like potato chips. Great. It was profitable and, and, but that the, the beer business, it took a lot longer to turn this into a profitable business.

[Cameron Healy]

Well, it took three years to turn into a profitable business. By January of 1999, we became profitable, went into the black.

[Guy Raz]

Okay, so I want to go back to kettle. And I guess by the early 2000s, you and your partner Tim, who was really kind of, I guess overseeing operations in the uk, you decided that you needed to grow or to scale, you needed a more professional board, you needed a. And, and I guess you brought on a private equity firm. You sold a, a chunk of the brand to them. Was the idea in 2004. At this point, hey, you know, let's, we've got this really successful brand. Let's start to, to look around for maybe an, an acquirer.

[Cameron Healy]

Yes, we were by that point, you know, we're doing about $100 million in sales, scaling and scaled. But Tim and I were, were the board of directors, we were co CEOs and we were literally making all of our key decisions in pubs and restaurants. You know, we'd sit down, have a meal and make those decisions. And you know, that worked well. But we realized we needed a proper board with some outside influence to help kind of guide the next coming years because we felt there were even greater opportunities. But Tim had a relationship with a gentleman named Michael Chu. Catterton Partners. Their specialty was building consumer brands. That was their, the focus of their private equity business still is today. Got it. And so what we're going to do, they were going to buy a third third of the business and we're also going to recruit a top flight CEO, global CEO, and bring in a group that Catterton worked with to do strategic plans in which we'd never really done a strategic, comprehensive strategic plan.

[Guy Raz]

So you sell a third of the company to this private equity firm with the intention clearly to sort of set the business up to get acquired for more money. And that happens within, I think by 2006, it's announced that the brand is going to be acquired by a UK based investment firm called Lion Capital. They bought out Kettle Foods reportedly for about 300. Over $300 million.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, we, we had grown the business by 50% and as a board, we agreed to that if a certain dollar amount offer came in, then we would, we would consider it. It was sooner than, yeah, sooner than what we'd planned. But, you know, I'd been at it

[Guy Raz]

for 27 years and an amazing outcome. I mean, $320 million and you guys still own 67% of the business. I mean, incredible. You know, I don't think anybody would, would turn that down.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah. And I have no regrets. It was a good journey. I realized that my time had come.

[Guy Raz]

Along with Tim's, they went on to sell it, I think for over $600 million in 2010. The brand kettle has gone through since then. Diamond Foods, which bought it, it was bought by Snyder's Lance. People may know their pretzels. And then Snyder's Lance was purchased by Campbell's for almost $5 billion. So Campbell's actually now is the owner of the Kettle Chips brand. And so now, you know, you go to any grocery store and there's like Kettle Chips on the shelves and basically now it's owned by Campbell's.

[Cameron Healy]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

So that was it. So was your time. I mean, you didn't at that point had no business interests in Salem. I mean, I'm assuming you stuck around for a little while to help with the transition, but basically that was it. Right?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, I didn't, you know, we were. Tim and I were given a small incentive to be advisors for a year. But we both sat in on the first conference call with the operator that Lang Capital had brought in to oversee the company. A Scotsman, very dynamic, forceful individual, and sat in on the first management call, which, you know, I, I've never done. I've always been in charge. And after that first call, both Tim and I said, well, we're not doing that. We didn't do all this to sit in the back of the bus. And, you know, we declined on that opportunity. So I, I basically walked away when it sold.

[Guy Raz]

One of the things you were able to do with your Newfound Resources was to start a foundation. And I think a lot of your focus is on like environmental issues, I think even domestic abuse. And I read that the board of your foundation voted last year to spend the entire endowment down by 2029, which is. It's like Brewster's Millions you gotta give away. How big is it? Is it 75, 80 million dollars, this foundation?

[Cameron Healy]

In that. Yeah, in that arena.

[Guy Raz]

Tell me about that. Why, why spend it now? You know, why not just keep it going for another 50 years?

[Cameron Healy]

You know, I'm turning 75 this week and looking at it more than a year ago, is that I didn't want to have to worry about managing a foundation through my 80s, but also preparing it for the future. When I was gone, I just, I decided that's, yeah, that's too much. And. But yeah, it's been a whole game changer. It's kind of turbocharged our organization. And we were given the award last year of the outstanding foundation in Hawaii, which it was nice to have that recognition.

[Guy Raz]

That's awesome.

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Cameron, you know, when you think about your story, right? I mean, you sort of started your early adulthood as part of this movement and, and living communally and for a variety of reasons, you went off on your own and then kind of stumbled into this idea of potato chips, which became a massive brand. Right. I mean, it is an iconic brand today and you became very successful and wealthy as a result of it. And when you think about how it all kind of worked out, how much of your success do you attribute to the work and the grind and how much do you think had to do with being lucky and being at the right place at the right time?

[Cameron Healy]

Yeah, I think very much both. I think you can't be overtly risk averse. If you're an entrepreneur, you have to be able to live with ambiguity and live with stress. Also at the core is having great teams of people. You know, they're the ones that really, really executed and made these various companies work. And yeah, it's the people that, you know, I was able to be the visionary and direct into opportunities, but it's really so many great people that heart and soul, they committed themselves to make that happen.

[Guy Raz]

That's Cameron Healy, founder of Kettle Foods and co founder of of Kona Brewing Company, by the way. In the early 2000s, Cameron was looking for a way to make sure that all that oil used to make kettle chips didn't go to waste. So he funded a biodiesel startup in Salem that still exists today. And he did it with another old hippie who's also a vocal advocate for biodiesel fuel, Willie Nelson. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the Follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, sign up for my [e-mail] or on substack. This episode was produced by Casey Herman, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Romel Wood. Our engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Khwesi Lee. Our production staff also includes Catherine Cipher, Chris Messini, John Isabella, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Kerry Thompson, Noor Gill, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built this.