Norma Kamali: Norma Kamali (2021)

Summary

How I Built This with Guy Raz: Norma Kamali Episode Summary

Introduction

In this compelling episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz, Guy Raz sits down with Norma Kamali, the legendary fashion designer renowned for her innovative designs such as the sleeping bag coat, hot pants, and the iconic red bathing suit worn by Farrah Fawcett. Hosted by Guy Raz and produced by Wondery, this episode delves deep into Kamali's entrepreneurial journey, exploring her triumphs, challenges, and the creative genius that has sustained her brand for over five decades.

Early Life and Inspirations

Norma Kamali was born in the 1950s in Manhattan, growing up in the vibrant immigrant neighborhood of Yorkville. Her multicultural background, with a Lebanese mother and Basque father, played a significant role in shaping her creative outlook. Tragically, at the age of 13, Norma lost both her father and stepfather, leaving her to be raised primarily by her mother.

“[07:18] Norma Kamali: My mother always had an easel with oil paints where she was in the middle of an oil painting while she was cooking some incredible dish that she just created... I was drawing very early. I was doing creative things for as long as I can remember, and it was great satisfaction for me.”

Growing up, Norma was deeply influenced by her mother's creativity, which fostered her own passion for art and design. Despite her affinity for painting, Norma's practical mother advised her against pursuing art full-time, steering her towards a more stable career path.

Education and Early Career

Norma secured a scholarship to the Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT), where she chose to study fashion illustration over fashion design. At the time, American fashion was heavily influenced by European brands, and the concept of American designers establishing their own unique brands was still emerging.

“[08:42] Norma Kamali: I decided on FIT because my mother was very clear that she didn't think painting was actually going to help me pay the rent...”

During her time at FIT in the early 1960s, Norma developed a disdain for the rigid and conservative styles prevalent in fashion, such as girdles and garter belts. Instead, she was captivated by the vibrant and expressive styles from vintage films of the 1930s and 1940s, often frequenting secondhand stores to find inspiration.

First Foray into Entrepreneurship

After graduating from FIT, Norma faced her first professional setback during a job interview at a garment manufacturer. Despite feeling confident in her portfolio, she encountered a humiliating rejection that left her devastated. Undeterred, she pivoted to an unexpected opportunity by securing a job at Northwest Orient Airlines.

“[14:47] Norma Kamali: And so I, of course, didn't want to be a stewardess, and I had zero office skills. But I went for the job because I thought, I want to travel. That's what I want to do.”

Working as a reservations specialist, Norma leveraged her airline benefits to travel to London frequently. These trips exposed her to the cutting-edge fashion scene in London, particularly the vibrant culture of Carnaby Street during the 1960s. Inspired by the eclectic styles and the music scene, Norma began bringing back fashionable clothing from London to New York, catering to a growing demand among her friends and community.

Launching the Kamali Brand

Recognizing the potential of her unique imports, Norma and her husband Eddie Kamali opened their own boutique, Kamali, on East 53rd Street in Midtown Manhattan in 1968. The store quickly gained traction, attracting a diverse clientele and garnering attention from prominent fashion magazines like Vogue and Bazaar.

“[33:19] Norma Kamali: I don't know if there is a term for what the clothing was at that time to be honest. They were very creative. Mainly one of a kind pieces, handcrafted...”

Eddie took charge of the business side, while Norma focused on design. Their partnership proved fruitful, with Norma’s innovative designs resonating with the fashion-forward crowd. As Norma's creations gained popularity, the store became a hub for celebrities and influential figures, further elevating the Kamali brand's status.

Challenges and Transformation

Despite early successes, the Kamali partnership began to strain due to personal and professional differences. Eddie's lifestyle, characterized by partying and substance abuse, contrasted sharply with Norma's dedication to the business. This discord ultimately led to their separation and the dissolution of their joint venture.

Faced with mounting challenges and the collapse of the Kamali store, Norma found herself at a crossroads. With limited financial resources, she sought help and guidance, realizing the importance of networking and asking for assistance.

“[66:09] Guy Raz: Wow. So you. I mean, this was a business that you started. I mean, that store Kamali presumably had to shut down.

[66:18] Norma Kamali: Well, he kept it going for a while. ...”

Determined to rebuild, Norma launched Omo (On My Own) in 1978 on 56th Street. This new venture marked a turning point, allowing her to regain control over her designs and business operations. Through resilience and creativity, Norma introduced groundbreaking designs like the sleeping bag coat, which became an iconic piece synonymous with her brand.

Innovations and Iconic Designs

Norma Kamali's ability to blend functionality with style set her apart in the fashion industry. The sleeping bag coat, inspired by her love for camping, was a revolutionary design that merged casual comfort with high fashion. This piece not only became a staple in her collection but also influenced mainstream fashion trends.

“[50:00] Norma Kamali: ...I said, I'm not getting out of my sleeping bag. It's coming with me. So I wrapped it around myself, and as I was wrapped in it, I thought, you know, I think I'm going to go back and make a coat out of this.”

Her designs, characterized by innovative use of materials and bold aesthetics, continued to gain acclaim. Farrah Fawcett’s red bathing suit, designed by Kamali, became a cultural phenomenon and is preserved in the Smithsonian Museum in Washington, D.C.

Strategic Partnerships and Expansion

In the early 2000s, Norma Kamali made a strategic partnership with Walmart, a move that was initially met with skepticism given Walmart's reputation as a mass-market retailer. However, Norma's focus on affordability and comfort aligned seamlessly with Walmart's customer base.

“[81:16] Norma Kamali: Affordable? So to me, Value is also really important that you're able to pay the rent and still have something you love...”

This collaboration allowed Norma to reach a broader audience, democratizing high-quality fashion and reinforcing her commitment to accessible style. The partnership not only expanded her brand's footprint but also reinforced her philosophy that beautiful clothes shouldn't be prohibitively expensive.

Reinvention and Legacy

Norma Kamali's entrepreneurial journey is a testament to her unwavering commitment to innovation and adaptability. From her early days managing a boutique to her strategic alliances with major retailers like Walmart, Norma has consistently evolved her brand to stay relevant in a dynamic industry.

Her legacy extends beyond her iconic designs; Norma has also been a pioneer in embracing technology and sustainability in fashion. By integrating modern advancements and maintaining a focus on comfort and affordability, she has ensured that her brand remains influential and enduring.

“[86:46] Norma Kamali: ...I do well when I'm doing a lot of different things because I find each of them inspires the other and keeps things very exciting...”

Reflections on Success and Personal Growth

Throughout the episode, Norma emphasizes the importance of passion, resilience, and the support of a strong network. She acknowledges the role of both hard work and serendipity in her success, believing that her dedication to her craft and openness to opportunities have been crucial.

“[93:09] Norma Kamali: First of all, yes, you have to work really hard... I do think the universe has a big plan for us. And you can call it luck, but I think it's even more than that. I think we do things because that's what we should be doing.”

Norma's story is not just about building a successful business but also about personal empowerment and embracing one's journey. Her insights offer valuable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs on navigating challenges, maintaining authenticity, and continuously innovating.

Conclusion

Norma Kamali's episode on How I Built This offers an inspiring narrative of creativity, perseverance, and strategic thinking. From humble beginnings to becoming a fashion icon, Norma's journey underscores the significance of passion-driven entrepreneurship and the ability to adapt in a constantly changing landscape. Her legacy continues to influence the fashion industry, embodying the essence of enduring success built on innovation and integrity.

Notable Quotes

• Norma Kamali [03:20]: “Well, I started to make some things and I would put them in store to see how they would do and they would do really well...”

• Norma Kamali [07:18]: “My mother always had an easel with oil paints where she was in the middle of an oil painting while she was cooking some incredible dish that she just created...”

• Norma Kamali [14:47]: “And so I, of course, didn't want to be a stewardess, and I had zero office skills. But I went for the job because I thought, I want to travel. That's what I want to do.”

• Norma Kamali [50:00]: “I'm not getting out of my sleeping bag. It's coming with me. So I wrapped it around myself...”

• Norma Kamali [81:16]: “Affordable? So to me, Value is also really important that you're able to pay the rent and still have something you love.”

• Norma Kamali [93:09]: “First of all, yes, you have to work really hard... I think we do things because that's what we should be doing.”

Final Thoughts

Norma Kamali's episode serves as a masterclass in innovation, resilience, and the power of staying true to one's vision. Her story is a beacon for entrepreneurs navigating the complexities of building and sustaining a successful brand, offering both inspiration and practical insights.

Transcript

[Guy Raz]

Wondery subscribers can listen to How I Built this early and ad free right now. Join Wonderyplus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Ah, and here we have travelers in their natural habitat enjoying guaranteed 4pm checkout at fine hotels and resorts booked through Amex Travel. And they don't even see what's coming at them. We're in. We got the table. Yep. With resi priority, notify they're alerted when hard to get. Reservations open up.

[Norma Kamali]

Reservation for two. Mmm. Save the Best for last thanks to.

[Guy Raz]

Amex Platinum, the last day vacation brings yet another experience that's a powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] with Amex. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres. From memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers, from romance and well being to fiction. Audible's carefully curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best of the Year in audio entertainment. Like an almost unbelievably star studded production of George Orwell's 1984, which both honors and invigorates the terrifying classic, it's one of the best original dramatizations we've ever heard. Or check out romance that hits the spot, like Emily Henry's Funny Story. You can also find heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's Lovely One. And listen to the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Right now I'm listening to Profit Song by Paul Lynch Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.combilt and discover all the years best waiting for you. Your business deploys AI pilots everywhere, but are they going anywhere? Or are they stuck in silos, exhausting resources, unable to scale? Maybe you don't need hundreds of AI pilots. You need a holistic strategy. IBM has 65,000 consultants with gen AI expertise who can help you design, integrate and optimize AI solutions. So you're not just deploying AI, you're scaling it across your business. Learn [e-mail] consulting IBM let's create hey everyone, it's Guy here. So this week we're pulling one from our archives. It's an episode with Norma Kamali, the legendary and iconic fashion designer. So iconic, in fact, that recently she's been building an AI model of herself with the hope that her team can use it in the future to create new Norma Kamali designs based on her aesthetic. Also, if you want to hear more from Norma, she came back on the show a few weeks ago, this time on the advice line so you can scroll back in the podcast queue to hear her give advice to up and coming entrepreneurs. It's another super fun conversation, but this episode will blow your mind. It is an epic tale. It is a hero's journey. Here is her first appearance on How I Built this from 2021.

[Norma Kamali]

Well, I started to make some things and I would put them in store to see how they would do and they would do really well. And so the majority of the stock slowly became my designs and I had a full page in Vogue and I had a good size page in Bazaar and that was beyond belief because I thought somebody is going to find me out. I don't know what I'm doing and I have a full page in Vogue in Bizarre. This is nuts. Like I don't have a clue.

[Guy Raz]

Welcome to How I Built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today, how Norma Kamali built a 50 career around hot pants, sleeping bag coats and a Farrah Fawcett swimsuit and helped usher in the era of American fashion design. Starting a brand and then scaling it fast is hard. The glasses company Warby Parker was founded in 2010, and within five years it was valued over a billion dollars. The suitcase maker Away was launched in 2015, and by 2019 investors valued it at $1.4 billion. Both incredible achievements and both incredibly rare achievements. But what's just as hard, maybe even harder, is to build a brand that endures, that lasts a long time. Think Dell computers and Southwest Airlines, or even Starbucks and Burton snowboards. All stories we've told on the show. And this raises a what does it take to last to build something that can withstand changes in culture or in technology or in lifestyle? Well, in many ways our story today answers that question. Because fashion designer Norma Kamali figured it out, she's been able to build a brand that your mom might have worn and that you'd want to wear too. She's probably best known for creating the sleeping bag coat, but also helping to popularize hot pants shoulder pads for women, the all in one dress, and for designing the iconic red bathing suit made famous by supermodel Farrah Fawcett, a piece that is actually in the permanent collection at the Smithsonian Museum in Washington, D.C. but this isn't just a Story about someone with incredible staying power as a fashion designer. This is, you could argue, the story of modern American fashion design, because back before, say, the 1960s, design, for the most part, happened in Europe. To wear something fancy usually meant wearing Hermes or Chanel or Christian Dior, not Donna Karan or Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein. And Norma Kamali was in the vanguard of young designers who changed all of that. She grew up in the 1950s in Manhattan in an immigrant neighborhood called Yorkville. Her mother was Lebanese and her father was Basque. When Norma was little, her parents split up, and when she was 13, both her father and her stepfather died. So Norma was mainly raised by her mom, who, according to Norma, was an incredibly creative person.

[Norma Kamali]

My mother always had an easel with oil paints where she was in the middle of an oil painting while she was cooking some incredible dish that she just created. She made costumes for the plays that we had in the neighborhood for all the kids, but beautiful research costumes. And so I thought that that's what everybody does. And so I was drawing very early. I was doing creative things for as long as I can remember, and it was great satisfaction for me.

[Guy Raz]

And did you have easels and canvases all over your house? And were you constantly painting?

[Norma Kamali]

Actually, no, because the house was about 2ft by 3ft, so there was just enough space, let's say really tiny space. So in this neighborhood, we had a community house that we would go to after school, and that's where I did a lot of painting. And then I enjoyed sitting by the river and sketching. It was such a happy place to just see a beautiful view and being able to sketch it.

[Guy Raz]

But when it came time to go to college, you didn't go to art school. Instead, you wound up getting a scholarship to fit, which is the Fashion Institute of Technology. Right?

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. I decided on FIT because my mother was very clear that she didn't think painting was actually going to help me pay the rent, because she wanted me to know that she was not going to help me pay the rent. So I went to FIT to see where that would take me. But you have to know that I hated fashion because it was Mad Men time, right? That girdles, garter belts, cone bras, the whole thing and everything was matchy.

[Guy Raz]

This was the early. This was like the early 60s.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, yeah. And I did not like that at all. I found it very restricting. And I was obsessed with vintage films from the 30s and 40s. So I was already going into these sort of secondhand stores. They weren't called vintage stores at the time.

[Guy Raz]

Right.

[Norma Kamali]

And I would find these clothes and wear them. And I was just off the grid, like, nobody got me. And I didn't study fashion, I didn't study pattern making. I studied fashion illustration with. And this was at the time, there were actual jobs that you could get in fashion illustration. Now, I mean, people probably don't even know what that means as far as an advertising style.

[Guy Raz]

So you studied fashion illustration, which is basically drawing outfits on models.

[Norma Kamali]

On models, yeah. And I was able to really study anatomy in a big way. I used to take a lot of courses on anatomy outside of fit. And from that I really understanding the body, the movement of the body, the muscle over the bone and the skin over. So it all comes together.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. And were you an ambitious student? Did you think, I'm going to do this and then I'm going to become a fashion designer, I'm going to make a name for myself?

[Norma Kamali]

No. First of all, let's put this in perspective of the early 60s.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Norma Kamali]

It wasn't until the 70s that being a designer in a design house was an American concept. Right. So the jobs that you would get in the 60s would be manufacturers who knocked off European fashion.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah.

[Norma Kamali]

Even the department stores at the time would copy the collections and put them under their store brand. So if you look at vintage clothes, you'll see in a lot of the labels that the store that carried them, not necessarily the manufacturer or the designer, because that was the way it was done. So the store was really the brand. And I want to add to that, women in the workplace in the 60s, think Mad Men again, most of the women were secretaries, assistants had those kinds of jobs. So I just thought, if I can get a fashion illustration job at a company or at a newspaper or a magazine, that would be fine. I would be happy with that. And so my first job interview was in the garment center at a manufacturer. Unfortunately, it was a difficult experience. It was an objectifying experience.

[Guy Raz]

When you went in as an. For an interview.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. So I was very happy with my portfolio. I felt very good about it. I.

[Guy Raz]

This is your portfolio of your illustrations?

[Norma Kamali]

Yes, yes. So I was so excited to be graduating and hopefully at this job. And I walk in and he's got his feet up on his desk, he's eating a tuna sandwich, and he tells me to put my portfolio down. I was wearing a little black dress below my knee, low pumps. My hair was back in a bun. I was very low key. And he said to me, come here and turn around for me. And I just. There was this white Noise. And I thought, what does that mean? And he's the power in the room. And I hear my mother's voice saying, you better get this job. You better get a job. And so I turned around and I just was so embarrassed and humiliated and I ran out of the office, I grabbed my portfolio, and I remember my portfolio tearing up my stockings and I'm clip clopping on my pumps and I'm feeling and crying and so devastated. So when I got home, my mother said, well, did you get the job? And I said, no, I didn't get it. And I got a New York Times, which is where they had a big section for jobs that were available. And I saw a job at an airline, and at the time, Pan Am, twa, all of these airlines were the apple of the time. Right. Those were the. Those were the jobs.

[Guy Raz]

That's where you wanted.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. And so I, of course, didn't want to be a stewardess, and I had zero office skills. But I went for the job because I thought, I want to travel. That's what I want to do. I want to see the world. I don't want to do this. And so I went for the job, and shockingly, I got it. And the next thing I know, I'm working at a Univac computer. In the 60s, besides education, airlines were the first ones to actually commercially use computers.

[Guy Raz]

And just. And so what was your. You were hired by Northwest, Northwest Orient.

[Norma Kamali]

Airlines in the office at Penn Plaza. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And as what. What was your official job?

[Norma Kamali]

So I was a reservations specialist and basically a clerk. And I worked in this big room with desks all in a row facing a big glassed in walled office. And every single call was monitored and people were in there with headphones listening to how we handle our calls.

[Guy Raz]

So people call up and like, if they want to book a ticket, that you would be the person that they talked to.

[Norma Kamali]

Right. I was Agent 1006. I still remember it. And it was Northwest Orient Airlines, may I help you? I mean, I'm still in my. You know.

[Guy Raz]

So when you worked for Northwest Orient Airlines, which became. Eventually became Northwestern and now is no longer exists, part I was kind of merged with Delta. Did you get discounts on travel?

[Norma Kamali]

Yes, and that was the reason I wanted to work at an airline. So the discount to travel round trip to London was $29.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. From New York to London for 29 bucks.

[Norma Kamali]

Yes, sir. And every weekend I would leave Thursday night and come back Monday.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. That was like the glamour, the height of glamour travel.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. And everybody dressed to travel.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. So you were going back and forth to London in the mid-60s and just hanging out in London.

[Norma Kamali]

So my first trip, I did a stop first in Paris. I met my girlfriend in Paris that was at FIT with me. And we met in the lobby of her hotel, and I was waiting for her. And at the same time, there was a rock group from London in the lobby. And so they thought I was French, and they were talking about me. And I was really trying not to divulge that I knew what they were talking about. And so my friend Betsy came, and of course, we see each other and we're screaming and they started laughing and they said, oh, so you're an American. And it was the Spencer Davis Group. I don't know if you know who they are. You know the song I'm a Man? I'm a man Yes, I am oh, yeah, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, yeah.

[Norma Kamali]

That's who you.

[Guy Raz]

I gotcha. Okay.

[Norma Kamali]

And they said, when you guys come back to London, there's a club called the Speakeasy, and we'll get you in. So we said, sure. And when we got back to London, we of course, went to the Speakeasy on Margaret Street. And this was this club, this private club where all of the rock people, the. Everybody. I got to meet Jimi Hendrix and everybody. Oh, God, yes.

[Guy Raz]

You were really, like, in the. Got into the scene. Like, this is like swinging 60s, Carnaby Street, London.

[Norma Kamali]

Jeff Beck. Yeah, Jeff Beck was a really good friend. And then. And at this club, I met these two guys who were really nice. And one of them said, you're going to really get along with my girlfriend really well. Tomorrow, come meet us at our shop. And so they had a shop, and the Stones were partners with them in the shop.

[Guy Raz]

Where was the shop on Kings Road?

[Norma Kamali]

It was one on Kings Road in Chelsea.

[Guy Raz]

Okay.

[Norma Kamali]

A friend of mine at the airline suggested I stay at a boarding house off Kings Road for $6 a night. So I did. And so this was when Kings Road was all gray except for a few stores that just burst color up the walls outside. And Dandy's, which was the name of the shop, was one of those stores.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. What was this? And what did the store sell?

[Norma Kamali]

They had men's clothes, women's clothes. They had a motorcycle in the store and a car engine. And. And I actually have a photo of four of us outside on Kings Road. Parry Match came and did a colored double page spread of all of us dressed in the clothes from Dandy's.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Norma Kamali]

And it's hysterical. It looks like It's a costume party, but it wasn't a costume party. It was what we were really wearing. And the clothes were great.

[Guy Raz]

And by the way, this is a time, if I'm not mistaken, when London was like. It was the center, like the cultural center of the Western world. I mean, of course, there were massive student demonstrations were beginning in Berkeley and in New York City and in Paris. But culturally, right, London was Carnaby street and the Stones and the Beatles, everything. And people were wearing things that you were not seeing in New York.

[Norma Kamali]

Right? Completely different. I connected right away with it. I felt that that was where my soul was. I was totally comfortable with it. So when I talk about London being gray, you think of these tweed coats and the hats and grey London and this color bursting, literally bursting, and the music blaring out of the stores. It was art in expression in every way that you could think of. Film, music, fashion, for sure. So much had just flipped and went against the grain of anything that had happened before. So when I would come back from London with my skirt very short, mini. Nobody had been wearing miniskirts before that. So when I came back and I would walk in the street with a miniskirt, cars would screech to a halt. It was shocking. And people would say the most ridiculous things, like, you know, either that you're a prostitute or what do you what. But the shock of showing your knees.

[Guy Raz]

And that was completely like, radical. When you would come back to New York.

[Norma Kamali]

Radical, Radical.

[Guy Raz]

I guess around this time, you. This is sort of the mid-60s. You met a guy named Eddie Kamali who would go on to be your husband. How did you meet him?

[Norma Kamali]

His name was Mohammed Hossein Kamali, and his spoken name was Mansoor. And some of his friends would call him Eddie. And I loved to dance. And there was a club that opened that was a very small club, and it turned out that I knew the dj, and he was like, oh, mom, so glad you came. And he said, they're going to have dance contests here, and I think you should enter the dance contest. And I was like, I don't know. And he said, yeah. And I know a guy that's a really good dancer that you should dance with, and they have prize money that you could win. So he introduced me to Eddie Kamali, and of course we won the dance contest. So that in itself is enough reason to get married at 19.

[Guy Raz]

Oh, God. Norma. My mom also got married at 19, which was not unusual. And so 19 years old. And I'm. Cause I'm thinking Norma what are you thinking? But right, so you were 19, you're married. So when you. So you and Eddie were married, when all. When you were going back and forth to London.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

And was he coming with you or were you going by yourself?

[Norma Kamali]

No, he was. He was a student here. He was studying economics. He was one of a flood of Iranian students that came during the Shah's time. Yeah, so I would go to London and it was pretty early on that I started to bring back clothes for friends of mine who were saying, you've got to get me this. And so I would bring back these little dresses from Biba and Bus Stop and all of those shops in the garment bag. And I got those with the sort of expandable sides. And I literally. It would be like I was carrying a body through my carry on.

[Guy Raz]

You were just packing your suitcase and bringing stuff back so you didn't have to pay shipping costs.

[Norma Kamali]

I mean, I just didn't know better that you should. I mean, I was just, oh, this sounds good. And I just did it. And I did that for very. I mean, four years.

[Guy Raz]

Meantime, you're still working for the airline, right?

[Norma Kamali]

Yes, I'm working for the airlines. And bringing clothes back.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah, this is around, like, 1968, I guess. And that year you would go on to open a store selling clothes. But how did you connect the dots? I mean, you're obviously bringing clothes back for friends, but at what point did you say, you know what, I should actually open a shop and sell this stuff?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, it was obvious to me that more and more people were asking me to bring clothes back. And I thought, I don't know, maybe this is. Maybe this is a good idea. And having a shop would sort of solidify what I'm doing. It would, you know, make it have a purpose, not to just be sort of like a cattle car coming back and forth with clothes. And the good news was because Eddie was a student, he would have time off that he could work in the store and sell. And he was great at selling. Very charming. And while I was at the airlines, he was selling the clothes in the store.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, this is 1968, so it's not New York today, because New York real estate today is. It's almost impossible for the average person to just rent a place in New York. But how realistic. I mean, you were a reservations clerk. How were you able to rent a space in New York City? Was it cheap? Was it just cheap?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, it was $285 a month.

[Guy Raz]

Nice.

[Norma Kamali]

It was a basement. It was literally 9 by 16.

[Guy Raz]

Where was it?

[Norma Kamali]

On East 53rd Street.

[Guy Raz]

This is 53rd. Between what streets?

[Norma Kamali]

2Nd and 3rd.

[Guy Raz]

Between 2nd and 3rd. Okay. So this is midtown.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

But by the way, did anybody in your office know that you had a shop selling fashion?

[Norma Kamali]

That's a good question. I kept it a secret. But the interesting thing was there were very strict rules on dress code at all airlines. Very strict. Not uniforms, but you had to wear nude stockings, low heeled shoes. And I took advantage of the fact that I was really good at my job. And I had a feeling I would not get fired if I wore, say, a wig or a boa around my neck or.

[Guy Raz]

Wait, wait, you just said it was like a conservative environment.

[Norma Kamali]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

So how were you able to wear a boa or a wig?

[Norma Kamali]

It happened over a period of time, and I think they sort of got used to it. And I never got sent home. People would get sent home, but I was really good at selling tours. Tours to the Orient. I mean, I really made some big bucks for them. And I learned. I have to say, I learned how to sell through that job. I learned how. I learned service sales. It was a great learning experience for me.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so you. This store, I'm assuming when you opened it up, there was nothing like it, because it was. You're selling clothing from the uk From London.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. And so people looked at shopping as sort of a sport or a sort of a thing that you did. So couples would get dressed to go shopping, and word would get out. It would almost be like going to art galleries. Right. Where people want to go see what's going on. And couples of all ages, all types of people would come and shop. And a lot of the fashion magazines, a lot of the stores, you know, big department stores would come to see what we were doing, but we sold things to people of all ages. I mean, I still have people who are in their 80s now who are telling me they wore my clothes. And I think it's so funny. Here's somebody who's 86 who is telling me she wore my clothes. And I think that's pretty fab. That's really good.

[Guy Raz]

By the way, what was the store called?

[Norma Kamali]

Kamali.

[Guy Raz]

Kamali, okay. And Eddie, was he like. Did he. Because he came to study economics, but did he prove to be actually a pretty good salesperson?

[Norma Kamali]

First of all, he was incredibly handsome and incredibly charming. And he left Iran when he was 11 and was in boarding schools in London, outside of London, until he came here to go to college.

[Guy Raz]

So he had that British accent, that charming.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. So he charmed everybody that came in. And then he would say. I would say to him, eddie, I think this is way too much money to charge for this. And he would say, I'm going to sell it. You'll see. I'll sell it. And I was like, no. And he would. So then I just thought, well, I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'm just going to be quiet.

[Guy Raz]

So he was mainly handling the business side, and you were kind of handling the creative side. Is that fair to say? Yeah.

[Norma Kamali]

But you asked me before, did anybody know at Northwest if I had this company? And nobody did until Time magazine decided to do a story on snakeskin and how snakeskin was becoming the accessory or whatever. And I had snakeskin wallpaper in the store, and I was making. At that point, I started to make some things, and I was making snakeskin vests and shirts and stuff like that. And so they came to 53rd street and they photographed Eddie and me in some snakeskin in front of our store. And it got into Time magazine. And one day this buzzer starts going off from behind the glass wall at the front, and Norma Kamali come to.

[Guy Raz]

The front and, wow, this is in the big, cavernous room at Northwest Orient. Okay.

[Norma Kamali]

So I go walking up, and they take me into a room, and they open the Time magazine and they slap it down and said, what is this? And I said, oh, wow. I didn't even see it myself. Like, wow. I was so excited that. And scared at the same time. I didn't know how to react. And they said they frowned on that. And I said, I understand.

[Guy Raz]

They frowned on the fact that you had a business or what.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. But I realized then also that this was time, that it was getting very hard to do both. And it just had to make a decision. So I find. And I didn't. They didn't push me out. But in a few months after that, I decided it was time to go focus on the.

[Guy Raz]

But now you lose your cheap flight to London to be able to bring the stuff back.

[Norma Kamali]

Right.

[Guy Raz]

But it sounds like at this point, you're already designing and selling some of your own pieces.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, I started to make some things, and my mother helped me because, as I told you before, she was great. She made costumes and beautiful clothes. And I really didn't know how to sew. I didn't know how to make a pattern. I didn't have any of those skills. But my mother and I, through my growing up, would work together and say, mom, can you make these Pants, I want them to do this, this and this. And she would make them until she stopped making things that she didn't think were good for me to wear. So she didn't want to make them. But we did do a lot together before this. So I asked her to help me put together some of my new ideas and that's how I started it. So we started to do some things together and I would put them in the store to see how they would do and they would do really well.

[Guy Raz]

And what were you designing?

[Norma Kamali]

I don't know if there is a term for what the clothing was at that time to be honest. They were very creative. Mainly one of a kind pieces, handcrafted. I did a lot of snakeskin clothing. I did a lot of suede and doeskin hand whip stitch skirts with different shapes and flares. I did the very first suede skin skirt that I made I hand whip stitched. You know, you just take a hole puncher and you punch everywhere and then you stitch it together with strips of suede. And I remember making that skirt. I put my heart and soul into it and I was so proud of it. And of course Eddie sold it for some whatever ridiculous amount of money I thought. And so I had started to accumulate the majority of the stock slowly became my designs. And in a very short time after the clothing was primarily mine, I had a full page in Vogue and I had a good sized page in Bazaar and that was beyond belief because I thought somebody is going to find me out. I don't know what I'm doing. Like I don't have a clue. And I have a full page in Vogue and bizarre. This is nuts.

[Guy Raz]

When we come back in just a moment. How Norma found the best person you could possibly imagine to narrate her first fashion show. A then unknown Bette Midler. And how the ceiling eventually came down literally and figuratively on her clothing store. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I built this With Amex Platinum. You can really be in the now access to resi priority notify yes 4pm.

[Norma Kamali]

Checkout with fine hotels and resorts booked through Amex Travel. We needed this and dedicated card member entrances at select events.

[Guy Raz]

Let's go. Means you can focus on the present moment. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] with AmEx card. Member entrance access not limited to AMEX Platinum Card. If you've been listening to me for a while, you know that I am really interested in fitness. And eating the right foods. And for the past year, the single biggest game changer for me has been a biowarable called Lingo. Basically, it's a little device that you stick onto the back of your arm to measure your body's glucose levels. To see how your body responds to food and learn what you can do to improve your metabolism, try Lingo. It starts at $49 for a two week plan. No prescription needed for a limited time. Save 10% on your first order by visiting hello, lingo.com and using the code HIBT at checkout. The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 years and older not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. For more information, Please visit hello lingo.com Us who doesn't love saving money? So when Mint Mobile said it was easy to get wireless for $15 a month with the purchase of a three month plan, I called them on it. Turns out it really is that easy to get wireless for $15 a month. Before Mint Mobile, I was paying hundreds of dollars a month for my family's cell phone plan. Not anymore. With Mint Mobile. To get this new customer offer and your new 3 month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.combilt that's mintmobile.comb Cut cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.combilt 45 dollars upfront payment required. Equivalent to 15 dollars per month. New customers on first 3 month plan only. Speed slower above 40 GB on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the late 1960s, and Norma Kamali's clothing store in midtown Manhattan is starting to get not. Her husband Eddie is running the place and she's designing her own versions of some of the most iconic looks of the time.

[Norma Kamali]

The first thing that got a lot of attention and that, I mean, I'm not going to take credit for being the first to do it, but I don't know anybody else that was doing it at the time was hot pants.

[Guy Raz]

Hot pants. This is in, I guess like 1968. For those who don't know what hot pants are, what are hot pants?

[Norma Kamali]

So hot pants, don't forget we're talking miniskirts, right? And how do you get a miniskirt shorter than mini? It has to be shorts. We're all wearing boots that just come below our knees. We're sort of having that proportion. And so they were little tiny Shorts, they weren't obscene. They were very cool on long legs with boots. And everybody looked like they had long legs. And I made them. What I did was I treated them as pieces of art. So I would do appliques and designs on these little tiny shorts with, like, rhinestones and stuff. Well, not the rhinestones I did as tops. But the hot pants were mostly velvet appliques and lots of beautiful colors together. I would do palm trees and scenes, you know, all kinds of designs like that.

[Guy Raz]

And these were short shorts, basically.

[Norma Kamali]

Yes.

[Guy Raz]

Obviously, you went to Fashion Institute of Technology. You studied illustration. Like, super talented, artistic person, anyway, really into clothing. But you hadn't been a clothing designer. This was not part of your skill set. Was that hard to figure out how to do it? Because you didn't. I think you didn't study clothing design at fit.

[Norma Kamali]

No, but I'm obviously glad I didn't because I would have had a certain imprint that would have worked against what I really felt akin to. It was very easy for me to envision what I felt should be next.

[Guy Raz]

When you were kind of, you know, running the story, getting attention, you were getting celebrities coming in, like, I mean.

[Norma Kamali]

Oh, yeah.

[Guy Raz]

Bette Midler and the New York Dolls. They even had, like, an album cover with one of your, like, wearing your clothing. And were you getting lots of celebrities coming into the shop?

[Norma Kamali]

Tons. So Bette Midler started around the same time we started, and we heard about this girl who is funny and an amazing singer, and she was singing in this little dive place. And so this one night, we're at this club, and we're sitting right up front by the stage, tiny stage. And this girl comes out, and she is such a good singer, and she's hysterically funny.

[Guy Raz]

And she was not famous yet, right?

[Norma Kamali]

No. She had brown hair, like, to her shoulders, and she was wearing vintage that was falling apart on her. And in the middle of her act, she stops and says, wait a minute. Who are you people? And where did you get those clothes? I need to get those clothes. And. And so after the show, I met with her, and she said, I have to get these. I should have no money. Can I work for you? I'll work in your store, whatever, but I just don't have money.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Norma Kamali]

So I said, I know what you can do. I'm going to do my first fashion show. And at the time, fashion shows were narrated. People talked about the clothes and the fashion shows. So you had a narrator. So I said, I want you to narrate my fashion show. Bette Midler Yeah, so this is my first fashion show. So she said, what should I say? I said, I don't care. Anything you want to say when you see the clothes. You just say whatever you want to say. So we were in this mansion of some customer's boyfriend's aunt was selling it or something. And so this is a mansion in New York or on Long island in New York in the 60s. It was incredible. And so we invited all of these people, including Bill Cunningham. And so I had clothes that looked like this. Let me explain what this was. I had big polka dot ruffle jackets. I had gold lame capris. I had platforms shoes. I had clothes that nobody, in fact, stretch was not available in fabric. So the stretch I was using was actually girdle and circus fabric. And I used circus fabric to make these pieces. And so this is the tone. This is not what anybody was doing. So all of these fashion people come. Bette is sitting on a piano with a microphone and she's saying whatever she wants. And the people are looking at my clothes like I lost my mind.

[Guy Raz]

This is totally nuts, totally crazy.

[Norma Kamali]

The designer lost her mind and that woman on the piano lost her mind. Like, nobody knew either one of us.

[Guy Raz]

But you had a bunch of fashionistas there. And Bill, who was like a big fashion photographer.

[Norma Kamali]

No, now he wasn't a big fashion photographer.

[Guy Raz]

He wasn't.

[Norma Kamali]

This is, you know, the 60s.

[Guy Raz]

I got you.

[Norma Kamali]

So he took a ton of photos and that's when we became friends. And he said, dearie, I'm telling you something. They're gonna come back and understand what you're doing. Wow. Yeah.

[Guy Raz]

This is like a time capsule of, like, such a moment in New York City. Beth Midler and Bill Cunningham, unknowns. And Norma Kamali. Okay, so I'm curious about the actual shop, right. Because it's doing pretty well. It must have been doing really well because by 1974, this is like six years in. You had to move to a bigger space. You went to Madison Avenue.

[Norma Kamali]

Right. So when we moved in to Madison, I thought, if we're on Madison Avenue, I have to do different clothes. I have to grow up. I have to learn how to make really beautiful, well made suits and dresses. So I started to do suiting, but classical suiting. And I was making suits for Raquel Welch and Cher and everybody. So it really was the right decision to make, the right place to go. And that period of time in New York fashion was very creative. And it was one of my very creative times as well.

[Guy Raz]

But it sounds like you were focusing more now on professional clothing or like sort of high end suits and dresses. I mean, you'd gone from. You'd been doing hot pants and. Right.

[Norma Kamali]

Some of these, and snakeskin and velvet, you know, bell bottoms.

[Guy Raz]

So things you would. You would kind of wear at clubs or you would wear in the scene. And this sounds like you were now kind of shifting to making clothing that you might wear in an office or to sort of a fine dining restaurant.

[Norma Kamali]

It was a little. It still was very unique in the design. It still was not typical of what you could find anywhere else. And prior to that, people only knew Eddie. They didn't know me. I was very much in the background. An occasional photo or something like that, but he really was the face of the brand. And then I started to get a little recognition. People wanted to know where the clothes were coming from. And so that was happening about that time.

[Guy Raz]

Were you interested in the business side or did you kind of let Eddie handle that and kind of just focus on the creative side?

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, I did. You know, this is a time when women would not consider business as something they typically would do. It was okay to be creative in that space, but the business part of it, I never considered something that I would want to have the responsibility of. And I assumed, like everyone else, that men were better at business than women. I. You know, my world was that everybody believed it and assumed that that was the truth.

[Guy Raz]

And so he was in charge of hiring employees and making sure people came in on. And you were. I know we're gonna get to what happened later on, but at this time, you know, when you're in the store on Madison Avenue, what was your relationship with Eddie like? Was it a. A pretty good marriage?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, you know, when you're 19, you're really still a child. It's just you're a child in a grown up body. And by 1974, you know, our identities started to form and we were clearly going in different directions, which is expected, right? I mean, how do you not. I was so happy to have found something I love to do. And I worked so hard because I loved every minute of it. It wasn't work. He was much more social and outgoing. So there was sort of a difference in the way we looked at life and the way we looked at everything.

[Guy Raz]

He was more of like a partier.

[Norma Kamali]

Really big time partier. And he was very into drugs and very into the nightlife. And money is being spent on drugs and being spent on things that are not business related. And it became more and more difficult for me to get Fabric and to just sort of do the basic things that you need.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. I mean, meantime, you're like, your profile, I have to assume, is rising. I mean, you had this kind of big, big breakthrough in 1975 with the sleeping bag coat that anybody. I mean, people who don't know it, just type it and you'll see and you'll say, oh, of course I know that that's a sleeping bag coat. It was like a big puffer jacket that looked like a sleeping bag and wore it as a coat and became, like, this iconic thing. How did you come up with that idea?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, I loved camping, and I loved doing the whole canoeing and going down the rapids. And so one cold night when I was trying to figure out how I was going to get out of my sleeping bag to find a place to go to the bathroom, I said, I'm not getting out of my sleeping bag. It's coming with me. So I wrapped it around myself, and as I was wrapped in it, I thought, you know, I think I'm going to go back and make a coat out of this. And so the first sleeping bag coat was my actual sleeping bag, and I used every bit of it. I was very conscious of saving fabric and, you know, very, very careful about those things. And that pattern is still the pattern I use today for the classic sleeping bag coat. And I've made the coat every year since.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. And that coat, Right. That was. I think it was like the first. Because that material, right, sleeping bag material, was like puffer jackets. Like, I read that people really did not wear puffer jackets unless they went skiing. Now it's like, you know, a North Face or a Patagonia puffer jacket's like, you know, a fashion statement. But at that time, like, people only wore them to go skiing or so it was sort of, like, unusual, right, for that material to be used in just a coat?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, first of all, sleeping bag fabric was different from fabric you went skiing in. Mine was sort of a khaki fabric on one side, and the inside was flannel with geese. And, yeah, it was fabulous. And I then I bought a ton of sleeping bags and just started cutting them up like a crazy woman making sleeping bag coats.

[Guy Raz]

Was it a hit right away, the sleeping bag code?

[Norma Kamali]

It actually was. And, you know, that's like 74, 75, 76, Studio 54 open. And the doormen are wearing my sleeping bag coat. And so people decided if they bought the sleeping bag coat and stood outside, maybe that would be a way they could get inside. And I Did not dissuade them. So we sold a lot of sleeping bag coats during that period of time.

[Guy Raz]

You know, I'm surprised that you. I'm curious about your public profile. Right. Cause by the late 70s, I mean, you were getting Bianca Jagger coming into your store and like Ian schrager of Studio 54 and like all these sort of New York iconic fashion kind of in crowd, people coming in. But it sounds like you didn't have as much of a public profile as Eddie Come. You were Norma Kamali. You were designing this stuff. Did people know who you were?

[Norma Kamali]

No. My personality has always been, even up till now, very, very private. I always felt intuitively that my clothes should be the star. My clothes should make people feel good. People wearing my clothes should be the celebrities and the stars. And my personality is really not an outgoing personality. However, I attribute that decision, quite frankly, through the years, to one of the reasons for my longevity. When you're the flavor of the month, people get tired of you and they want to see the next flavor of the month.

[Guy Raz]

Totally agree.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, I think there's sort of a formula there that works because I always did what I felt was relevant, and I never really allowed myself to be out there. I pulled back a lot. I didn't go to parties. I didn't. I just really stayed sort of in the background.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, this was really at a time where your profile. I mean, if we were in the Instagram, Twitter age, you'd be all over the place, right? Like, you're. There's an iconic photograph that everyone listening will know this photo. Anyone over let's say 40 will know this photo. It's a Farrah Fawcett in a red swimsuit. It's just an iconic photo. That's your swimsuit. You designed that swimsuit, which I believe today is at this Smithsonian, isn't the Smithsonian's permanent collection.

[Norma Kamali]

It is.

[Guy Raz]

And you all of a sudden, I think, kind of overnight become known as a swimsuit designer.

[Norma Kamali]

So I asked Farrah. Farrah was a regular in the store and a just spectacular human being. And so she was in once, and I saw her in the store and I said, I have to ask you, why did you choose that swimsuit? Because I hated it. I hated that swimsuit so much. I did six of them. And I would do six to test, to see how people reacted, to see whether or not I would continue doing it. And I would do these tests. And I remember thinking, I don't know. I just am not sure about this suit. And don't you know, she purchased it, and I didn't realize. I didn't know that she did. And then she said, well, I had it in my bag and I was with my friend, this photographer, and we talked about doing photos for a poster, but this was just another sort of, we're going to take pictures. And she said, so I had it with me, so I put it on, and that's why. And I said, oh, my God. I really. I couldn't believe out of all the suits she had for me, that she chose that. But clearly the suit is just the subtext to her beautiful smile, her. Just the aura she puts out. And I think the reason men love it is because she's not threatening at all. She's just very sweet.

[Guy Raz]

I'm curious. I mean, this is a time, this is like the late 70s, where this is pre. Obviously long before Internet commerce. And so you are in New York, which is a super, hugely influential place, but people couldn't get your stuff outside of New York, Right?

[Norma Kamali]

Not yet, no.

[Guy Raz]

No. At that time, you had to go to Madison Avenue, Kamali shop on Madison Avenue to buy your stuff, and you couldn't get it in LA at, like, Fred Siegel or some of those fans. And I mean, this is also a time where American designers are starting to really. I mean, it's the beginning of a complete revolution that you have Donna Karan and you're going to have Ralph Lauren and you're going to have Calvin Klein and then Vera Wang and on and on, leaving out lots of them. But. Right. This is kind of the beginning of that movement because most designers were in Europe.

[Norma Kamali]

That's correct. And the 70s started to be, especially in New York, an incredibly expressive time. There was such an energy and expression. It sort of was what London was in the 60s. This was now the next sort of energy ball. That was intensely exciting, by the way.

[Guy Raz]

Did you. Did you have a sense that you guys were making money? I mean, did it seem like. I mean, you saw people coming into the shop and. Or were you just not even paying attention to that?

[Norma Kamali]

I was paying attention because it takes money to buy fabric. It takes money to sort of create the next thing you're going to sell. And that. That's probably where the differences between Eddie and myself came about. Because he was spending a lot of money from the company, and he was.

[Guy Raz]

Actually spending money from the business account of the company on his own, like, social life.

[Norma Kamali]

Yes. And he was going out every night. And then he started, you know, word would get back to me that he was with girls and Then he started dating the sales girl in the store that I had fired because she wasn't doing her job. So he hired her back. So it started. We started to have that kind of a not so great relationship. And we'd grown apart. And to be quite honest, I wasn't mortified that he was seeing other women. In fact, I was like, oh, well, you know, that's the way it goes. But what was happening was people were starting to realize that there was somebody else in the Kamali thing and that there was somebody who was designing the clothes. And at that time, it was very hard for men to reconcile a woman with power. And I wasn't. I was very. I mean, I hardly spoke. I was very quiet. But my power wasn't coming from me. It was coming from people's idea of me. And that was bothering him, too. And I think part of the reason he was dating the sales girl was because he had some sort of issue with what was happening with me.

[Guy Raz]

And so how did you guys resolve it?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, clearly, this was not gonna keep going in a good direction. And I think the turning point for me, you know, there's always that one thing that happens that's so horrific that you thank your lucky stars that it happened because you make the right move. And so I remember being in the sample room one day, and this same sales girl that he hired back came in to tell me that she decided she was going to be the new designer and that she wanted me to make some of her designs, and she described them to me. So I was just looking at her, thinking, this girl has definitely lost her mind. But I just let her keep talking, and then she leaves. And I went to my cutting table. I didn't even say anything. I went to my cutting table, and the ceiling over my cutting table just fell. And I said to myself, time to leave. And so I just left. I literally. I just left.

[Guy Raz]

You mean, you just walked away from the business?

[Norma Kamali]

Yes. I had $98 to my name. We, at that point, Eddie and I had already separated our living situation. I. I had got an apartment. I had a mattress. I didn't have furniture. I had my clothes, and that was it. And it was. It was definitely one of those moments in your life that you think, oh, my God, what am I going to do?

[Guy Raz]

When we come back in just a moment, how Norma figured out how to restart and rebuild her business, and how she also learned to reinvent it with new designs, new technology, and a rollout at Walmart. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz. And you're listening to How I Built this. While most CEOs believe innovation is the lifeblood of the future, few of them feel that their teams excel at innovation and more than 8 out of 10 innovation projects stall. The problem is once teams move from ideation to product development, there are a lot of factors that slow the innovation process. Things like outdated process management tools, team alignment and constant updates take a big step to solving these problems with the Innovation Workspace from Miro. The Innovation Workspace comes loaded with AI enabled tools to help teams get from idea to output faster. Our team in particular loves AI summaries to condense documents, stickies and overall board content in seconds to produce retrospective summaries, meeting briefs, research notes, and more. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, ux, agile, or it, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary Innovation Workspace and be faster. From idea to outcome. Go to miro.com to find out how that's M I R O what does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Inflation's up or it's down. Some days you wish someone would just invent a crystal ball. Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. Tons and tons of brands and businesses that we featured on this show depend on NetSuite by Oracle. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com bilt. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com bILT netsuite.com built hey, welcome back to How I Built this. So it's the mid-1970s, and Norma Kamali has gotten a divorce from her husband, Eddie, and walked away from the clothing design store that they started together. And this is not one of those stories where they agreed to split up the business in equal parts.

[Norma Kamali]

I had the $98 that I had on me. That was it. And I'd been asking around to see if I Wanted to leave. What would be the right thing to do? How do you handle it? And I had advice that you can't take anything if you leave. It's not, you know, that's not how.

[Guy Raz]

You do it if you leave the business.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. So if I wanted to leave and he didn't want me to leave, I mean, he literally contacted me to say, you owe me a swimwear collection before you go. And I was like, okay. And knowing full well that I wouldn't have money and that I would have to come back. So I think he really expected that I would.

[Guy Raz]

Wow. So you. I mean, this was a business that you started. I mean, that store Kamali presumably had to shut down.

[Norma Kamali]

Well, he kept it going for a while. Obviously it didn't stay for that long. I think maybe a year or two. And I really, I was so frightened. And I never really told. I never talked to anybody about anything private or personal. And so I felt really kind of alone. And a big lesson I learned was that being private and quiet is not going to get you anywhere. And I had had planned to meet this writer from the LA Times, which was one of a rare situation that I would ever meet an editor. And she really persisted and wanted to meet me. And my eyes were swollen shut from crying and I was so embarrassed, but I thought, I know where I'm supposed to meet her, but I don't have her number. So I went to meet her and she said, what happened to you? And for the first time in my life, I shared anything private.

[Guy Raz]

You told her that your marriage was dissolved and that your businesses.

[Norma Kamali]

And that I left the business. And she said, well, then what do you need? And I was like, oh, my God, I need everything. And she said, well, I'm going to get you some sewing machines. And so I realized that if you talk to people and tell them what you need, something can happen. But if you keep it to yourself, nothing is going to happen.

[Guy Raz]

She connected you to people who had sewing machines. I mean, this reporter for the.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, she. Her husband knew somebody in the industry. And then. And then I, I decided to reach out to people and ask for help and ask if I could borrow money. And. And that was my first, like, okay, I. I better figure out how to do this.

[Guy Raz]

So, I mean, you. What you did have, though, was your reputation and obviously your, Your. Your track record of designing already kind of iconic designs, but no money. This is a time where I imagine especially for a woman entrepreneur to go and raise money. I mean, was that even a possibility? Could you have gone out and, I don't know, pitched people and gotten investors on board.

[Norma Kamali]

No, but don't forget women. Women didn't have businesses that. But I didn't know a woman who had her own business, never mind in the fashion industry. I knew women who were partners, who had shops and things like that. But to have your own company and run it and design for it, that was sort of like, I couldn't think about it. I just had to do it. And so friends invested, invested their money in me and, you know, family, friends, anybody, anything that I could muster, I did. And I was so committed to paying everybody as soon as I could, because what they did for me is they gave me a freedom that I so desperately wanted.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so it's 1978 and you're completely starting again, and you call your new business omo. On My Own. I love that. And did you kind of recreate this idea? Was it a brick and mortar store with a space to design clothes in the back as well?

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, I had to come up with something, so I came up with Omo, Norma Kamali. And I did find a space on 56th Street. And there was a space that I used as a sample room. And so that was really the turning point in my career.

[Guy Raz]

All right, so you've got omo. You're starting from scratch, kind of. And this is a time I think you started to experiment with material that was used in, like, sweatpants, like sweat clothing.

[Norma Kamali]

Yes. So for my entire career, I would put in styles in the store, and then the people from Bloomydales would come in and I would see full page ads with my styles, but not with my name on it, but with Bloomidales. And you.

[Guy Raz]

Basically they were knocking your style off.

[Norma Kamali]

Right. And I was crying, trying to pay the rent. Let's just, let's.

[Guy Raz]

Plain and simple, you would design stuff, sell it in your boutique, and then.

[Norma Kamali]

You would see it at Bloomingdale's or other places. And so finally, I was doing a swimwear collection. And as I was doing the collection, I thought, I think I'm going to get sweatshirt fabric because I love to swim. And when I would swim, my brother had these sweatshirts from the Army Navy store. And I would put them on when I got out of the water. And I bought gray sweatshirt fabric and I designed some cover up pieces for swimwear. And then I thought, this is really beautiful. I did a dress and then I did a jumpsuit, and then I did a coat, and then I did a suit, and I had 36 pieces all in gray. Sweatshirt. And I'm looking at it, and I'm thinking, you know what? Somebody's gonna make a lot of money on this. And this time it better be me, because I can't have any more sleepless nights. We gotta pay the rent. And so I didn't know what to do. So I contacted Women's Wear Daily, who were very supportive of me, especially going out on my own. And they came to see it, and I said, how do I protect this? And they said, do not show it to anybody. We are going to introduce you to someone who will be a great partner for you to do a license with. So they introduced me to Sydney Kimmel, who had Jones Apparel at the time, which was a hugely successful line for women going into the workplace. And we signed a deal. In two weeks, we were in business. Then the brand, the name became known globally. It really just took off in a huge way.

[Guy Raz]

I'm looking at a photo of Anorma Kamali sweat jumpsuit from 1982, and I see my mom in that. It's not my mom, but I see my mom in that picture. Right. That did really well. I mean, you. I think by 1981, you were doing $11 million in sales, easily.

[Norma Kamali]

Yes. And it became global. I had licenses in Japan, in Europe, in the US I had 30 licenses for everything, covering accessories, the whole deal. And that's when I really learned how to negotiate, how to manage a bigger kind of company. But there comes a point when you get too much attention that you get scared and you think, this is going to be the end of me because it's going to be too much. And so after six years of doing the collection with Jones Apparel, I didn't renew the contract. Now, let me tell you, there was a lot of money on the table, I'm sure. But I said, I don't need a lot of money. I just need my independence. And how can I maintain that? What can I do to maintain that, but still keep my brand in a good place? Now, walking away, as we all know, is a very important thing to do at the very right time. And it is the hardest thing to do. But those were the times that really saved me from. From really bad situations.

[Guy Raz]

But you thought that. I mean, I guess I'm not entirely clear about why you would. I mean, if it was successful and it was doing well and there was money to be made, what was that?

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah, well, as it got bigger and bigger, the quality control diminished. And that's not good for me. Right. That's not good for my reputation. And then the distribution wasn't controlled. Yeah, I remember Saks was complaining because I did these big yellow slickers, right? They were really big with buffalo check flannel, buffalo check inside.

[Guy Raz]

And these are rain like raincoats.

[Norma Kamali]

Rain slickers, Big fun ones. And they. They did a big ad promotion, everything, and they still hadn't gotten their shipment. And I was on my way home, and I passed a store on 14th street, like a schlocky junk store with a rolling rack outside of the yellow slickers of my yellow slickers. And I said, what is happening with the distribution? Why are there no controls? And I remember I was told, you're only a pimple on an elephant's ass. And that's how big their company was. And I thought, oh, okay, I think this is the time to hang it up.

[Guy Raz]

And of course, another thing that's really hard to keep control over is the designs themselves. Right? I mean, because, I mean, let's just be clear. Like, it's very hard to patent designs.

[Norma Kamali]

No, you can't.

[Guy Raz]

Right? You can't. You can't. Which is why, like, fast fashion began in the 90s and. Right. Sort of cheap knockoffs that you would find at, you know, some of these stores. Because you can't. Right. People. No, people can really not just kind of copy your style.

[Norma Kamali]

It's sort of. To be honest, it's sort of a way of life in the fashion industry. There's a whole. Most of the industry, copies. And, you know, for me, I've always thought, I'm not going to get upset about it. I have another idea. So I don't have to worry that they took that idea. But when it comes to your survival in the business, that's when you start to get anxious about it. Now, you know, people still copy me. In fact, there's this young designer who, in 2016, she opened, did a website. And she based her website on a dress I designed in 1973 that I still sell, called the all in One. And the dress can be worn in a hundred different ways. It's easy care. And I have a whole video showing the way you wear it. And her whole website is this dress, the video she did of all the ways you could wear it, and that she is the creator of the dress. And she even came to my store to see what was going on, the whole thing. So I hear about this, and she is a very small business. And my CFO says, we have to, you know, we have to put a stop to this. She can't make these claims. So he talks to the lawyer, the whole thing. I said, this is what I want to do. I don't want to have negative conversations about somebody knocking me off. The only thing I care about is that she makes the dress in a good way. The way she's making it is so ugly and poorly made that what I want to do is drop all of the charges against her, and I'm going to send her a pattern of the dress with instructions on how to make it. And I said, and you know what? Now she's not taking advantage of me. I gave her a gift, and that's it. And so that's my attitude at this point about knocking off. I mean, it's just so pervasive, though.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. Norma, while you were. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in the 80s, you were really focusing on comfort clothing. Like, I mean, now we all talk about it. Cause everybody's been doing zoom calls, and here I am, I'm wearing pajama pants right now and house slippers. But, you know, normally together, I'd be wearing, you know, a collared shirt, and, you know, I would be meeting Norma Kamali. I would dress really well. But it seems like you were doing, like, comfort clothing, you know, washable machine. Washable. How would you describe your. Like, if I were to go to a shop and said, I want to look, I want to dress in Norma Kamali stuff in, like, 1985, what would I look like?

[Norma Kamali]

Well, my philosophy has been the same all these years, so I was believing in clothes that felt good on knits, clothes that you could wash and not dry clean, fun clothes, clothes that you could be active in. I've always. I'm still that same person. I'm wearing sweats as we speak. I love to feel good in clothes. I don't want to feel uncomfortable. I don't even want to think about my clothes. But the most important thing is that it's not precious. You can wear it anytime. You don't have to hang it on a special hanger or it's gonna get wrinkled. That, to me, is so not on the list of what I'm gonna do.

[Guy Raz]

You know, I'm curious, because today, like, for example, streetwear, which is such a weird term to me because streetwear means, like, $600 T shirts, right? Or like. Or, like, $300 rubber flip, right? That's streetwear. I'm like, who on the street is wearing a $500 T shirt? Was your stuff super hot, expensive, or was it affordable?

[Norma Kamali]

Affordable? So to me, Value is also really important that you're able to pay the rent and still have something you love. And, you know, the idea of somebody buying like a $5,000 handbag and not having any money to do anything else is like insanity. So for me, beautiful clothes don't have to be expensive.

[Guy Raz]

And I mean, clearly that. It sounds like that became kind of a. Or was a mantra of yours. I mean, because you. I mean, I'm moving forward a little bit. But you would go on to partner with Walmart in the early 2000s. Yes. To debut a collection of clothing at Walmart, which, by the way, you can still get through, like, ebay. And people sell them at a premium, like Norma Kamali T shirts and stuff. But tell me about that partnership, because, I mean, Norma Kamali, high fashion, there's a certain kind of reputation brand, and Walmart obviously is not that.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. I'll tell you. So, first of all, when Halston made a decision to do a big box, I think it was Penny's. It killed his career. And so, you know, word has always been, you don't want to get involved with those because for your reputation, it's not good. But I love to meet people and listen to ideas and what they are offering. So if people approach me about something, I probably, nine times out of ten will have the conversation. I always learn something from it.

[Guy Raz]

And it sounds like that's what happened in this case. Right. I mean, I think at some point someone you knew from the industry who'd gotten a job at Walmart called you up and made some sort of offer.

[Norma Kamali]

Yes. And he said, I'm gonna ask you something, and I don't want you to say no right away. He said, I'm working at Walmart and I want you to come and meet me here. And I said, oh, I don't. I really don't think so. And he said, I know you would like this meeting. I know you're gonna like it. Just for the experience. You have to come. So I said, okay, I trust your judgment on that. So I get on a plane, and then you take that little plane to Walmart, to Bentonville, and. And I go to my first Walmart superstore. And I am blown away. I have never. I mean, I'm a New York City girl.

[Guy Raz]

I don't.

[Norma Kamali]

I don't even.

[Guy Raz]

I'm a Walmart superstore in New York.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. And I don't drive a car, so I'm not, you know, I'm like a New York girl. So I'm looking at this thing. And I'm like, holy mackerel. So then I meet some really smart people, we have these great conversations, and they want to have a fashion line for Walmart. And I said, I don't think so. I don't think that's a good idea. I'm just saying. And a little over a year later, I got a call from them. It appears that they did do a fashion line for Walmart and it didn't work. And somebody that was at that meeting said, we have to talk to Norma, but this time we'll come to see you. So they said, what is in your mind? What are you thinking about? And I told them that I thought that they should have the core of a wardrobe, like a trench coat, a white shirt, a black trouser, a jacket, all the basics. And so I remember when I was doing a T shirt, T shirt designs for them, and I see 650 units. And I said, I don't know, that doesn't seem like it's going to be enough. And they said, well, that's 650,000 units. And I was like, oh, okay, all right, I get it. And so the quality of the clothes was exactly the quality I wanted. The fabric was the fabric I wanted. And why is. Why so? Because when you order 650,000 units, you can get the quality you want and the fabric you want. That's a tremendous amount of power. My experience at Walmart was extraordinary.

[Guy Raz]

I read that when the collection was debuted at Walmart and you were at a Walmart, people were running up to you with cash register receipts for you to autograph them.

[Norma Kamali]

Right, right.

[Guy Raz]

It seems to me that part of what you have tried to do and have done throughout your career has been to constantly. You're constantly coming up with different ideas. You got into E commerce super early in 1996, and you got on. You were on ebay, like, really early. And you, I mean, in the 90s, you introduced like, I think a line of, like, home goods products. Like, were all those things, Was it just you following your curiosity or were these, like, really kind of strategic business decisions that you were making?

[Norma Kamali]

I actually had a website in, like, between 95 and 98. I started to really kind of want to be because I was so comfortable with computers and because of the airlines, and I understood what you could do with this kind of technology. I just wanted to jump right in right away. And of course it was way early, but I. I do well when I'm doing a lot of different things because I find each of them inspires the other and keeps things very exciting. Remember, I haven't changed my job in 53 years. I've had the same job. And so when I'm interested and I see something is an opportunity that can use creativity and technology, I am super excited about it. I love VR. I love some of the amazing directions we can go in. This is a very exciting time, inventive time. This is going to be bigger than the 60s were in the revolution part.

[Guy Raz]

Of it when I mean, there's so much. There's so much in your life and career that we can. That we just can't talk about because it's been. You've had this incredible career and I know you've got a book kind of talking a little bit about your life and also about your experience. I gather the message of your book is like, hey, actually your life gets better as you get older.

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. The book is called I am Invincible. And what I do is I share my life experiences through the decades. And so the goal of the book is to help women get through each of these decades with some tools and information. And Aging with Power is sort of the headline of the book in that you can get better with age. I love the fact that I'm so much smarter now than I ever was and that I do things now to serve my purpose in this lifetime, which is a very freeing experience. We all have a difference schedule. We all have a different timeline and one should never judge theirs by others. And I think the universe just is checking things out for us and helping make the right decisions. Like meeting your soulmate at 65. I am very fortunate that I did end up finding someone who is my soulmate. I'm happy that it was at this point in my life because honestly, I wasn't ready earlier.

[Guy Raz]

It's funny because I talked to my mom about this, who's almost your age, and she always says to me, this is the best time of my life. Like, I love being in my 70s. Do you feel that way?

[Norma Kamali]

Yeah. She's absolutely right. You know, anti wrinkle, anti aging. All of that just drives me and your mother crazy. Okay, I will speak for her. So I feel that I'm in the place where I can communicate and help educate what aging is about. And whether it's a 20 year old that feels like she's getting old or a 30 year old, 40 year old, 50 year old. The idea of getting old should be part of the passage in a woman's life. Not something to fear, but something to cherish because of the knowledge and the experience you gain in each of these decades.

[Guy Raz]

Yeah. When you think about the history of American fashion, you know, I think a lot of people would say you're a big part of it. You're right there in it. It's like the history of restaurants and, you know, Alice Waters, who's on the show, like she's just incredibly important part of why so many people eat local and organic food. Do you feel like that? Does that. Do you feel like a pioneer in American fashion?

[Norma Kamali]

You know, it's really interesting. I look at Norma Kamali almost as this other person. Right. I think that Norma Kamali contributes to the fashion industry. I like to think people are comfortable in a casual lifestyle in their clothing because of maybe something I did with sweats. I'm like that little speck that gets things activated and then it becomes something bigger and much bigger than I am. I certainly don't want to have like my name on it to feel better. I just sort of feel that's pretty cool. I like that. I like that that's happening. I like that people are wearing sweats now at home and everybody's saying they're going to never wear sweats again. Sorry, I don't believe you. I know you're gonna wear sweats again.

[Guy Raz]

I mean, when you think about it, you had no intention of becoming a fashion designer. You went to the Fashion Institute of Technology because your mom was like, you better get a job. And that really was your objective. Like the idea that you would become this known fashion designer was not part of your plan, but you did. And a successful, well known designer. How much of your story and your success do you think happen because you worked really hard and were really strategic. And how much do you think has to do with just getting lucky?

[Norma Kamali]

First of all, yes, you have to work really hard. And the way you work really hard is that you're doing what you love. You love it so much that you don't feel like you're working hard and that you have good relationships because the last thing you want to do is burn bridges and relationships. You know, the one thing I can tell you is do not burn a bridge, because that bridge is going to come around again. You're going to see all those people again. You cannot believe how everything comes round. But I also think, I hope I don't sound too crazy or woo woo, but I do think the universe has a big plan for us. And you can call it luck, but I think it's even more than that. I think we do things because that's what we should be doing.

[Guy Raz]

That's iconic fashion designer Norma Kamali. And by the way, remember when she was Talking about that one off design she did back in the late 1960s, that suede skirt that she whip stitched using a hole puncher? Well, a few years back, decades after she created that skirt, Norma was out.

[Norma Kamali]

Walking around town and I see a girl walking towards me in the most amazing skirt. And I kept looking, looking at it, thinking oh my God, it moves so beautifully. I really love that skirt. And as she was coming towards me, that was my skirt and she must have been 19. So clearly that skirt was purchased by someone either handed down to her mother to her or sold then given to a vintage store that then sold it to someone.

[Guy Raz]

Wow.

[Norma Kamali]

That skirt probably had had several lives. And here I was seeing it and I wanted to stop her, but I thought, no, that's not what you're supposed to do. You're just supposed to look at it. And I had chills. I was so moved by it. I'll never forget that moment.

[Guy Raz]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the Follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, sign up for my newsletter. You can find [e-mail] this episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our production staff also included, includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Sam Paulson, Devin Schwartz, Katherine Cipher, Carrie Thompson, John Isabella, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Norma Kamali]

Dracula, the ancient vampire who terrorizes Victorian London. Blood and garlic, bats and crucifixes. Even if you haven't read the book, you think you know the story.

[Guy Raz]

One of the incredible things about Dracula is that not only is it this wonderful snapshot of the 19th century, but it also has so much resonance today.

[Norma Kamali]

The vampire doesn't cast a reflection in a mirror, so when we look in the mirror, the only thing we see is our own monstrous abilities. From the host and producer of American History Tellers and History Daily comes the new podcast the Real History of Dracula, we'll reveal how author Bram Stoker rated ancient folklore, exploited Victorian fears around sex, science and religion, and how even today, we remain enthralled to his strange creatures of the night. You can binge all episodes of the Real History of Dracula exclusively with Wondery. Join Wondery and the Wondria Apple podcasts or Spotify.