Josh Hochschuler (6:38)

I land there, it was like January 4th or 5th when I landed there.

Guy Raz (6:42)

1996.

Josh Hochschuler (6:43)

1996. And I go up to an information booth and I say to the young lady behind the booth, I say, hi, I've come here now and I'd like to live here. What do you suggest I do? And she just looked at me and she goes, hold on a second. And she starts calling over to the other information booths and gets everyone to come. She goes, just say again what you just said to me. And I said, I want to live here. I don't know what I should be doing. And they all just start dying laughing that I just land there and I'm in the airport and I'm trying to figure out what to do next. So they told me everyone's on vacation down there. Everyone takes a month or even two months off, which is January and February.

Guy Raz (7:20)

Which is because it's the summer. Yeah.

Josh Hochschuler (7:23)

And they said everyone's in Uruguay right now. The country's closed down. So you picked the wrong day to arrive. You should have come two weeks ago.

Guy Raz (7:30)

Well, to be 22 and just not know what to do.

Josh Hochschuler (7:34)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (7:34)

And they're like, well, you speak no Spanish, you don't know anybody and you're asking for work. Like that's what I would have said to you if I met you.

Josh Hochschuler (7:42)

Yeah, I was pretty bold. I was, I was a little bit at the point where I needed money no matter what. So I started teaching English and I did that to make money. It was very little money.

Guy Raz (7:54)

Like Berlitz or one of these companies.

Josh Hochschuler (7:57)

Exactly.

Guy Raz (7:57)

And where were you living? Were you living at a youth hostel?

Josh Hochschuler (8:00)

So I mean the story's quite long, but just kind of to make it not too long. I had become friendly with a taxi driver who spoke English and he knew of an apartment where the person, they were renovating it. And so I said, look, I'll make A deal. I will pay for two or three months worth of rent up front so they can finish the paint and whatever they have to do. But I get to sleep there every day while they're doing the work. So I would sleep on the floor. I used like a, you know, a sweatshirt as a pillow. And they were finishing the construction of the apartment while I lived there. It didn't bother me very much and I got to have a place where I could sleep and make food. So it worked out.

Guy Raz (8:41)

So what did you want to do in Buenos Aires? You had studied business administration and finance at college. Were you looking for work in that, in that area?

Josh Hochschuler (8:50)

I was. So whenever I had free time, I'd put on a suit and tie and I would go knocking on doors downtown and ask for the human resources department and give them my resume at banks? At banks, at financial institutions. But the biggest problem I always had was language. And it was always frustrating for them because I didn't speak Spanish. So that made it. I kept getting no's until one day there was a girl who was teaching at Berlitz and she said to me, you know, my father had kind of a similar story to yours. He had gone to the States looking for work and ended up working for bank of Boston. Go meet with him. I'll get you a meeting with him. So I went, I gave him my resume. I explained to him what I wanted to do. So he said to me, I'm going to give you a 30 day contract, which I still have. And of course it was back then, it was printed piece of paper and I'm going to give you a Spanish tutor. And if you do a great job for 30 days, I'll give you 30 more. And so that was the beginning of my career. Bank of Boston.

Guy Raz (9:53)

What did he, what did you do? What was your job?

Josh Hochschuler (9:57)

So at first I was, for two years I was in strategic planning and they were at the time growing branches of the bank. There was really good years in Argentina and business was booming. So they wanted me to do Excel spreadsheets and PowerPoints and stay there all night printing things on the printer and then collating them and then stapling them. And then so I, you know, I kind of did the lowest level of work for that office. And because I spoke English, there was a lot of presentations that had to be made in English to corporate from Boston. And so they liked having me there to help the C suite of Argentina to go through the English parts of it. So they all got to know me.

Guy Raz (10:44)

How, how quickly before you Became proficient in Spanish.

Josh Hochschuler (10:48)

It was a process. Probably within a year. Now, I didn't have any English speaking friends, so all my friends that I made spoke Spanish. I started dating a girl, so that. That's very helpful.

Guy Raz (11:00)

Argentinian.

Josh Hochschuler (11:01)

Yes. And we spoke in Spanish. And then, you know, just day in and day out at work, when I went out to eat, actually, I'd go home and my head would hurt because I would be trying so hard to learn how to communicate and there would be times when you just don't have the words or know how to say things. And. And then over time, oddly enough, I be. I started to gain a lot of vocabulary in the working world. So like in the finance world, I. I knew a lot of terms that a lot of people might not know otherwise.

Guy Raz (11:28)

Yeah, you would end up staying there for roughly five years. One of the things that you discovered there, which of course we can talk, is their ice cream, which if people haven't had Argentinian gelato, it's very different than Italian gelato and gelato. Italian gelato's so different than American ice cream. It's soft and smooth. And imagine like 1996, 97, when you're trying it, you're like, wow, this is unlike anything I've ever tried.

Josh Hochschuler (11:59)

The way I like to describe it is there was this huge influx of Italians who came to Argentina and. And they really clung to a lot of what they loved about their own culture and ways of life. And it influenced the language. A lot of the slang is Italian. A lot of the tango has Italian influence in the food everywhere. And they really took so much pride that. And they didn't look to change things because this to them was like something that beckoned back to the old country. So they wanted to keep it the way it was. So the way I describe it is that Argentinian gelato is the way Italian gelato used to be a very long time ago, 100 years ago.

Guy Raz (12:35)

So you tried gelato and it's just one of the things you're eating like steaks and Malbec, but really what you're doing is you're working in finance. And when you were in Argentina, like you're a year, two, three years in, what did you think you were gonna do? Were there moments where you were like, I think I'm gonna settle here forever. I think I'm gonna live here. This is gonna be my home?

Josh Hochschuler (12:56)

Yes, there were moments of that. The hardest part for me was I missed my family back then. It was harder to get home. There weren't direct flights To Dallas. You would go through Miami. My mom's mother, my grandmother passed away and it was very hard for me to make it in time. I didn't for her funeral. That made a big impact on me. And then also my sister, my older sister started having children. And I felt very far away because it was hard for me to see them. So although I loved being there in many ways was thinking maybe this should just be home forever. There was that pull as well to come back.

Guy Raz (13:33)

And I guess an opportunity came right around 2001. You got an opportunity to transfer to bank of Boston in, in Boston, In Boston. So a job opens up. So you are. This is like almost five years in and that's what you're going to do.

Josh Hochschuler (13:51)

So the gentleman who was leading the office had come down from the States and he had grabbed me because at that point I was bilingual. So I was able to help him manage the team. He was the one who got the offer to come back to Boston and then in turn made the offer to me. That was January, or even before January of 2001. And I simply said to him, I want to take the job, but I want a few months because I'd like to go travel. Okay, So I did that. I actually started in Easter island and then headed east and made my way around the world, but spent a lot of time in Asia. So the last stop along the way was in Dallas to see my folks. And I get an email from my boss from Argentina who says, everything has been stopped, all of the hires have been dissolved. There is no job here anymore for you. It's gone because the dot com had busted.

Guy Raz (14:43)

Wow. This was in what, what, what summer? Summer of 2001.

Josh Hochschuler (14:47)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (14:48)

Okay, you're 28 and you're done with bank of Boston. And so at that point, I mean, did you start to think, well, I better look for another bank job?

Josh Hochschuler (15:00)

Yeah, it was a thought. But also my father, he had always told me that if you're going to try to start a business, it'll be a lot easier for you if you do that before you have a wife and children. So that kind of was going over and over in my mind and I started to think maybe this is a sign that this is the right time for me to start thinking about doing something. I can live off pasta for six months and sleep at one of my parents guest rooms and try to build a business.

Guy Raz (15:28)

So like a sign, almost like a sign from God, right? Like, maybe this is what, this is the moment to do it. I'm 28 and you know, you want to be back in the US So first of all, what did you start to think about? Like, did you think maybe you'd start a financial consulting business? Like, because that was your background, what did you start to think about?

Josh Hochschuler (15:47)

So I was already missing Argentina, and I immediately started to think, I really want to do something that combines Argentina with the state somehow. I want to be tied to Argentina. And the thinking at the time after the dot com bust was I really want to come up with something that's super basic, like something people will always want. And so it was food based. And I was thinking about Malbec wine or gelato.

Guy Raz (16:17)

All right, let's talk about food for a moment. I mean, you didn't have any experience in food. You just liked it, you just enjoyed it.

Josh Hochschuler (16:23)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (16:24)

But you knew some people in Argentina, so you thought, well, maybe I can, I don't know, import wine or maybe we could do something with gelato. Like just kind of spitballing ideas.

Josh Hochschuler (16:36)

Exactly. I put it, like, onto a little PowerPoint. And I walked around and anyone who would listen to me, I asked them, which, which idea do you like better?

Guy Raz (16:42)

And what would they say to you? They would, like, who kind of people were you talking to about ideas?

Josh Hochschuler (16:48)

Yes. Friends, Old friends. My parents. Friends. There was one gentleman who had bought an apartment from my mother, who came from. I don't know if you ever heard of Dean Foods, but it was a big dairy. And I was able to get a meeting with him and he told me that my idea was horrific.

Guy Raz (17:03)

Your idea to do ice cream?

Josh Hochschuler (17:04)

Yeah. So funny enough, the guy, what he said to me was, it's a terrible idea. It'll never work. But everyone told me that when I decided to get into the milk business. So don't listen to a word I'm telling you.

Guy Raz (17:16)

Okay, so you're starting to coalesce around this idea of doing gelato in the U.S. in Dallas. Right. Like opening up a gelato shop?

Josh Hochschuler (17:26)

Yeah. The whole concept was replicate the gelaterias that are in Argentina and open one and then eventually more than one, starting in Dallas.

Guy Raz (17:38)

Okay.

Josh Hochschuler (17:39)

And especially at the time, you could buy gelato in places that had one or two stores. Kind of a mom and pop type style. But it was pretty new. It was like, cutting edge at the time.

Guy Raz (17:49)

Yeah. And when you. Before you even put a business plan together. Are you a cook? Like, are you a good home cook? Are you, like, do you know how to make food or did you know how to make gelato?

Josh Hochschuler (18:01)

No, no, I was not a good cook. I Didn't know how to make any of those things, really. The thought was, I will be able to find someone who can help do that part of the business. And then I was gonna concentrate on other aspects of it.

Guy Raz (18:14)

And to be fair, Ben and Jerry's took a correspondence class at Penn State. That's how they learned how to make ice cream. You figured, what, you'll go and find somebody in Argentina. So tell me what the order of operations. Did you start with a business plan and then start to look for money and then go to Argentina, or did you go back to Argentina to find a potential partner first?

Josh Hochschuler (18:36)

First I went back down to Argentina and started to try to meet with the gelaterias that I knew of, that I liked.

Guy Raz (18:44)

And you'd walk in and you'd say, what?

Josh Hochschuler (18:47)

Who owns the gelateria? How do I get in touch with this person? I'd like to speak to them about the possibility of bringing the concept to the states. And one of them obviously worked out. And I was able to speak to the owner, and they liked the ideas I had.

Guy Raz (19:02)

You found somebody who agreed to work with you?

Josh Hochschuler (19:05)

Yes, Jorge.

Guy Raz (19:07)

Jorge. Okay. And Jorge had a small chain of gelato shops in Buenos Aires.

Josh Hochschuler (19:12)

Yes.

Guy Raz (19:13)

And he said, sure, this sounds interesting. And you guys came to terms on what a partnership would look like. This is even before you had any money, right? No money to start this. Okay. And the idea was he was going to teach you how to make gelato, and then you would go back to Dallas and make it, or that eventually he would come to Dallas with you.

Josh Hochschuler (19:32)

Actually, the plan was that one of the guys that makes gelato for him, who was really good, was supposed to come and work with us in Dallas. So it wasn't initially going to be Jorge. It was going to be this other person.

Guy Raz (19:45)

So you start to learn how to make gelato and tell me what you're learning.

Josh Hochschuler (19:50)

So I'm learning his way of doing things. And it was a very old world approach. It was all starting with the original ingredients, whatever that could be. An entire raspberry, a block of chocolate. He would caramelize nuts. He would roast the nuts. He would make his own pastes and make his own butters, like nut butters. So he was showing me how they did things there. And it was a very manual slow in tiny little batches. And he started to show me how he manages a store, who does what? What are the roles inside the store.

Guy Raz (20:32)

Okay. So you're learning about just the process of making gelato, but ultimately you're going to bring somebody Back with you. Who's going to be like the gelato master, right? I mean, yes. And let's just double click on gelato for a second here because it is different than American ice cream, right? Like most ice cream that we eat in America is custard based. It's got eggs, it's very rich and delicious. Gelato is mostly, there's different milk fat proportions and it's generally does not have egg in it. I think it's churned more slowly. Like, just tell me the differences between gelato and ice cream.

Josh Hochschuler (21:06)

So I always describe it with three main differences. It's like when you say churned more slowly, it's basically how much air is being incorporated into the product. So gelato has very low amounts of air.

Guy Raz (21:17)

It's super dense, but creamy.

Josh Hochschuler (21:20)

Super dense. Super dense. So you get a totally different mouthfeel. It also has much, much lower fat. It could be half the amount of butter fat. And then it has really high solids. So you're avoiding water. And that lends itself to texture and flavor.

Guy Raz (21:36)

All right, so you're back in 02. And now, you know, you've got sort of developing a plan on starting on opening a gelato shop in Dallas. But there's a challenge there, which is you need cash, you need money to do that. So how much money did you have? Did you have savings of your own?

Josh Hochschuler (21:53)

I did have savings of my own. And I basically made a list of people to speak to friends and family. And I went and met with them one by one. It was about 110 people.

Guy Raz (22:06)

And you showed them what, what did you show them?

Josh Hochschuler (22:08)

A business plan I had built, which was one of the longest business plans you could ever imagine. And the vast majority, probably 95 of them or so, said no.

Guy Raz (22:18)

What was in the plan? Was it like, hey, do you want to invest in my ice cream shop? Or was there something bigger? Was there a bigger idea there?

Josh Hochschuler (22:25)

Well, yeah, the bigger idea was that it would become a chain.

Guy Raz (22:28)

Okay.

Josh Hochschuler (22:28)

The pitch was, look, I've got these experts from Argentina who know how to make the product. The product is second to none. There's a great opportunity here to do this. And part of the plan is we want to introduce to people that once they've gone out for dinner, they come by and have gelato and people also bring it home. It was kind of like I wanted to create this culture that I had become accustomed to when living in Argentina, where the night is a series of stops. You go one place first, maybe have an appetizer or a cocktail. Or a glass of wine. Next place for the meal, next place for the dessert. It didn't all take place in the same spot.

Guy Raz (23:06)

Okay, so how much money did you were you able to raise?

Josh Hochschuler (23:11)

I think my goal was 600 grand. I think I got close to it. Maybe I was a little bit shy, but it was around there.

Guy Raz (23:19)

Okay, so you have, you've raised $600,000 to open a store in Dallas. It's 2002, first of all. What are you going to call it?

Josh Hochschuler (23:27)

So I know I actually had in the business plan, when I built the plan, it already had the name. It was going to be Talenti Gelato. From the very, very, very beginning. As I was doing research trying to understand gelato and the history of gelato, I was reading a lot about this gentleman, Bernardo Bontalenti from Florence. He lived in the 1500s and he's credited with basically inventing gelato. Actually, as the story goes, Kai, there was this huge banquet by Catherine de Medici and each course, subsequent course was going to be more fantastic than the previous. And it culminated with his gelato. So I basically took part of his name and it was like a tribute to him. Okay, this guy invented it. I'm going to name it after him. I've got this very old world, labor intensive way of making things, and I'm sure he did it that way. So I'm gonna name it after him.

Guy Raz (24:20)

Wow. All right, you have 600 grand to do this, to sign a lease and to build this out and to buy all the equipment. You opened the store in 2003, and I mean, it's Dallas and it's an unusual kind of ice cream. And did you get some attention? Did the newspapers start writing about you? What was it like on opening day?

Josh Hochschuler (24:41)

Yeah, it was great. We got a lot of great coverage and people loved the product and we long lines of people coming to buy it. So in that regard, it was wonderful. We were really making a name for ourselves. I remember the Dallas Morning News did a whole article talking about the best ice creams and gelatos in all of Dallas, and they ranked us number one. So we were getting some good coverage and people loved it.

Guy Raz (25:07)

And how long does that last? I mean, does the hype must eventually fade, I imagine, or did it last for a long time?

Josh Hochschuler (25:15)

Well, when the sun was out, it was lasting. The summers were great. Winters were really hard. People loved it. But yeah, the summers were great, but the numbers weren't working out.

Guy Raz (25:26)

What's the problem?

Josh Hochschuler (25:28)

The problem is the average ticket. The small size was. Let's say $2. And almost everyone was just buying that. And the store itself was quite large, and there was a lot of overhead. And the business model was built on there being a considerable amount of people that would buy the larger containers in the Styrofoam and at home in order to get that transaction up.

Guy Raz (25:49)

But nobody was doing that because Americans buy ice cream at the grocery store.

Josh Hochschuler (25:53)

If I sold one, I was happy. It was. It was shockingly disappointing how few people would buy anything of any considerable size.

Guy Raz (26:01)

But did you try to educate people on how to do that, or did you just expect people to do it?

Josh Hochschuler (26:05)

Oh, I had a frames everywhere outside. I had signage everywhere. We were running specials. There was signage all over the street store. I had the.

Guy Raz (26:13)

The scientists said, what?

Josh Hochschuler (26:15)

You know, buy one, get one, or whatever the promotion was. Or here, you know, here's the container. You should take it home and have a party and look how we can beautifully present it. And this, that, and the other. It was like hitting my head up against culture. It was like trying to convince people to change the way they did things. Just wasn't working. And I had some chefs from around town that loved to come, and the chefs really liked it. And they were asking me, hey, can you make it a really large size for me and I'll buy it from you. I'll sell it at my. My restaurant. In 2004, so the second year of the store, I started doing that. I would have a cooler. I would sit there and help make it, put it in the cooler, deliver it to the restaurant. And I was doing that, and they loved it. And it just kept growing. I was like, wow, this. There's something here about going this other route. This is going to be really helpful and amazing.

Guy Raz (27:06)

But still, I imagine that's not quite making up for the loss.

Josh Hochschuler (27:10)

No, it wasn't making up for the loss. We were losing money. And there's one chef from a very popular steakhouse here in town, which was. Is owned by a gentleman who also owned a little specialty supermarket, said, look, we love your product. Would you now put it in the container that we can set inside this little specialty supermarket and we'll sell it there. And sales were amazing. That's when I started to say to myself, I'm being held down. First of all, I hate the retail life. It was not for me. The way I would describe it was I'm always working when everyone else wants to be having fun. Right.

Guy Raz (27:50)

Nights, you were there seven days a week?

Josh Hochschuler (27:51)

Yeah, from morning to night. And the most intense times were when Everyone would be either having dinner or going out or whatever they're doing. And I'm always working. So I said, wow, this is, you know, I'd rather work when people are working and not work when people aren't working, because I want to be able to do things as well.

Guy Raz (28:10)

And you were dating your now wife at the time.

Josh Hochschuler (28:13)

So I hired my wife to be the pastry chef at the store. We had a little pastry display that was crazy about her. It took her a little longer to figure out that she loved me too, as it often does, and we eventually started dating. But this was all in 05. So as I was starting to try to say, maybe I need to start thinking about there's a better opportunity out there going into this other space of restaurants, which is food service.

Guy Raz (28:42)

So you start to basically say, I gotta close this store.

Josh Hochschuler (28:45)

Yes.

Guy Raz (28:45)

This shop. Your whole business model was about building shops all around the country.

Josh Hochschuler (28:51)

That's right.

Guy Raz (28:52)

A year and a half in, you realize that's not gonna work.

Josh Hochschuler (28:56)

It's not gonna work. It was heartbreaking.

Guy Raz (29:01)

When we come back in just a moment, how that heartbreaking decision to close the shop actually set up talenti to grow much, much bigger than Josh had ever imagined. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built. My favorite vacations have been to towns and cities where I could also just enjoy living like a local, shopping in the markets, cooking in my own kitchen, or spending a lazy afternoon looking out the window and reading a book. And all of this has been possible because I usually stay at Airbnbs. Maybe you're planning a trip for a long weekend, or maybe you want to book a stay somewhere warm while you're away. You could Airbnb your home and make some extra money toward the trip. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host what does a future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Rates will rise or fall. Inflation's up or down. Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 41,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. As a business owner myself, I love the idea of having this much clarity and control. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com built the guide is free to you at netsuite.com built netsuite.com built Bigger isn't always better, especially with AI. Super sized models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI costs up to 90% right size. Your models@IBM.com the AI built for business IBM. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy raz. So it's 2005 and Josh makes an agonizing decision. He's going to close down his retail gelato shop, but he's still making gelato. He's just pivoting to service wholesale accounts. When you went to your 15 investors and you said, I'm going to close the store and do this, what was their reaction?

Josh Hochschuler (32:07)

Well, probably some level of disappointment, but for the most part, I was dead set on making sure they were all whole. So I said, you're coming with me. You're going to own part of this business. But I just think that the opportunity is elsewhere. Again, these were friends and family at the time, so most people were like, look, we're betting on you. We want to see you succeed. So if you really think this is the direction that it needs to go, and it's sad to see that store close, but let's go for it. Let's try this new angle.

Guy Raz (32:34)

Did it feel like a relief or was it, were you sad or was it both?

Josh Hochschuler (32:38)

All the above. There was a lot of emotion involved. I had spent quite a long time working on it. I spent long hours there. It was a dream, and it felt like somewhat of a failure closing it down. I had to let everyone go, including my wife. And I basically ended up moving into a tiny little warehouse, taking the machines over there, and had one hourly helping me. And actually, Guy, that move was scary because I had already started to sell to these restaurants in this one store. And you can't just disappear for a while because all of a sudden you're moving and they need it every week. They need the product because they're selling it. And I didn't have a freezer anymore once I was shutting down. And there was a very kind man who owned a frozen distribution company who I asked, do you mind if I put a pallet of product in your freezer? I'll pay you rent or whatever you need. I just, I have to have product to get through the next couple weeks while I move. And he just said, don't worry about it, you just use it. You don't have to pay me anything.

Guy Raz (33:40)

And when you went to your Argentinian partner and you said, hey, we're going to shut down the store, I need to focus on wholesale, what did he say?

Josh Hochschuler (33:50)

He totally disagreed with me. He was very opposed to kind of this new direction we were going in. It's frowned upon down there. You don't take artisanal, high end products and sell them in the industrial setting. So they just lost all interest. The relationship was dwindling and it just seemed like the right time to say, look, I will do what I can to buy you out. So let's come up with a number. It might take me five years, but give me time. But over time I will buy your part out. But I was riddled with debt.

Guy Raz (34:23)

And did you, I mean, you had to break the lease, right?

Josh Hochschuler (34:28)

Yeah, I had to meet with the landlord and explain to them the plan. And I had to go out and find someone to take over the lease. And I found someone who took over the lease and then I negotiated with them to buy my own freezer back because it was considered part of the building. So there was a lot of work trying to wind it down. It was a lot of work.

Guy Raz (34:47)

Do you remember how much debt you were in? Were you like more than 200,000, 300,000.

Josh Hochschuler (34:52)

Probably something like that. Like 2 to 300,000. As long as you don't consider the fact that at the time there was a lease. Right. So I had to figure out a way out of the lease. And the easiest way is to find someone to take it over.

Guy Raz (35:05)

Okay, you're 31ish at the time with this debt. Were you comfortable with that? I mean, were you, were you like, I got this or were you, was it stressful?

Josh Hochschuler (35:14)

Very stressful. And it just kept getting more stressful because I kept taking on more debt. But you might recall that those years, five, six, seven banks were very willing to hand out money.

Guy Raz (35:26)

Oh, yes, they were.

Josh Hochschuler (35:28)

So I was one of those guys that they were handing money to. Had it not been for those times, it would not have qualified.

Guy Raz (35:36)

Yeah, they would not have given you the money today. And you couldn't have probably gotten a credit card today with that much debt.

Josh Hochschuler (35:41)

Right. And I don't know if you remember this too, but they used to be handing out credit cards, 0% interest all the time. So I had like 16 of those that I built up. I got. I was able to buy a house with like 5% down, a little house. And then I took a second mortgage out on that and then put it into the business. So I was doing everything to come up with any penny I could to stick it into this business. And it was all on me personally at that time. And I was carrying the investors because I had told them I would do everything I can to take care of them. There was a couple capital calls that they had the option to put in some more money, and some of them ended up putting a little bit more money in, but the vast majority was on me.

Guy Raz (36:17)

Right. Because it seems like a failing business at this point.

Josh Hochschuler (36:21)

Without question.

Guy Raz (36:22)

So the investors are like, ah, well, you know, I don't know about this. Let's just see what happens. You're taking on debt, but you move into this small space to just make ice cream for restaurants and then that one specialty store with the idea that you would turn this into a business doing, like, pints, like Ben and Jerry style pints.

Josh Hochschuler (36:42)

Yes, pints. To specialty stores as well as the larger containers to restaurants. The plan was we're going to sell bigger ticket items in pint format as well as in these larger containers for restaurants, hotels, convention centers, stadiums, cruise lines, you name it. That was the model.

Guy Raz (37:04)

And who was making the gelato in that little warehouse for you?

Josh Hochschuler (37:07)

I was.

Guy Raz (37:08)

You were making it now?

Josh Hochschuler (37:09)

Yeah, I was making it. I was delivering it. I was doing the accounting. I was the lawyer, I was the janitor. I had one employee, she was hourly, and she would help me. So if I'm out making deliveries in my old green Chevy Tahoe, she would stay there and make sure everything's running properly. And that went on for that year, 2005. That's what it was like.

Guy Raz (37:32)

And I can't imagine you're doing more than a few hundred thousand, maybe two, $300,000 in sales, max.

Josh Hochschuler (37:39)

In 2005, I did $175,000 in sales.

Guy Raz (37:43)

Right. So it's tough business.

Josh Hochschuler (37:46)

Very tough. Very tough. I mean, I was selling furniture. I was selling anything I could to fund the business. And keep in mind, I was now dating my current wife. I ended up buying an old, beaten up white delivery van and started picking her up for dates in this van. And she's just like what the hell is going on here? This is crazy. Milk's in the back with sugar. Because I'd go and buy all my. My raw materials with the van. Walgreens and CVS used to have a special where you could buy so much milk at a certain price, but you could only buy so much. They wouldn't allow you to buy more. So I would go around to every CVS and Walgreens in the whole city buying milk and putting it in the back of the van to take back and make gelato. And so anyways, she lived through that whole episode.

Guy Raz (38:31)

All right, but your customers, still small. Small customer base. It's like high end steakhouses and restaurants in Dallas. A specialty store. And that's 2005.

Josh Hochschuler (38:40)

That's right.

Guy Raz (38:41)

And how many different flavors are you making? Do you remember? Because that's also challenging. If you've got to make like 10 different flavors, it'd be more efficient to make like three.

Josh Hochschuler (38:49)

Oh. I was making any flavor anyone wanted. I had certain chefs that said, wasabi ice. One guy wanted wasabi ice. Whatever you want, I will come up with a formula, I will make it, and it will be exclusive to you. And I did that for any restaurant that was willing to work with me.

Guy Raz (39:04)

So how did. I mean, while you're doing this, you're making the ice cream, you're delivering it, you're hand packing it, because you don't have. I'm assuming you didn't have the machinery that could pack the ice cream.

Josh Hochschuler (39:13)

No, it was all hand done. Yeah.

Guy Raz (39:15)

So this is like, this really is a farmer's market business, right?

Josh Hochschuler (39:19)

Yes.

Guy Raz (39:19)

And this is a point where I have to imagine you're thinking, how am I going to get out of this hamster wheel? Because I'm doing all these things, I've got an hourly employee, and I don't have time to do business development or try and pitch other stores or whatever.

Josh Hochschuler (39:34)

Yeah, I did have that sensation that. That came more about a year later. But, yes, in 2006, there was a broker who had seen the gelato.

Guy Raz (39:44)

This is like a broker who represents.

Josh Hochschuler (39:46)

Food brands, who represents Costco.

Guy Raz (39:49)

Okay.

Josh Hochschuler (39:50)

For Texas. And she called me and said, I love your product. Would you consider working with Costco Texas? And of course, I was excited, thrilled, said yes. And the first thing they said is that the only way to get in is to do something called roadshows. So you would actually go to the. Whichever store it was, set up a little stand and sit there and sell your product to everyone who's shopping in the store. So I did that for a very long time. I drove around the entire state. So at the time, I did have Costco as a customer on a very limited basis for a short period of time. It was very, very helpful. And we were getting new restaurants and that specialty store that I had been in had expanded. They had several locations in different areas. They had all picked up the product. So I had like five or six of those as well. That year we did 430 grand in sales. So things were growing and I was starting to take on more help. Employees at the warehouse and sales were.

Guy Raz (40:46)

Building, okay, this is 2006. And that specialty store, which is really where it all began, now they're growing and they're ordering more ice cream. But apparently they're having problems. The specialty chain is behind the scenes. They're having financial problems.

Josh Hochschuler (41:02)

Yeah, I did not know that. I got into this bad cycle where you allow for a customer, let's say you have 30 day terms where they, whatever they buy from you, they can pay you 30 days later. Where they would go beyond that time.

Guy Raz (41:16)

Frame and you would let them slide.

Josh Hochschuler (41:18)

And I'd let them slide because I wanted to be able to sell to them. There was always the fear that if you. You lay down the law and say, I'm not going to deliver until you pay me what you owe me, that you lose the customer. It is a dangerous slope. And that is exactly what happened. I got way past 30 days, past 60, probably past 90. So I had. It was a very important client of mine and I didn't know how to kind of get myself out of that situation.

Guy Raz (41:41)

And so what happened?

Josh Hochschuler (41:45)

So towards the end, before they went bankrupt, they ordered this huge order, like way larger than normal. They received it and then they marked it way down and sold it off. But I never got paid. So it was really bad for the business. That. And then a couple of the restaurants had gone out of business as well. I was owed a lot of money, and it was getting close to Christmas time. Everyone who worked for me celebrated Christmas and it was an important time for them. And I was completely out of money. I basically. I didn't know how to make payroll. I owed payroll.

Guy Raz (42:19)

Fifteen employees. You had Roughly.

Josh Hochschuler (42:21)

Roughly. And so I remember I called a meeting and I said, everyone, let's huddle up and talk. And I said, I'm going to go to the bank and I'm going to try to sign and get more money from the bank to pay you what I owe you because I don't have it right now because of what just Happened with this big customer. But it's going to take a week or two weeks, you know, 10 days to get this done. If you leave in the meantime, I can't even service the customers I have, and I'll lose them as well. So I really need you guys, please, to give me some time, and I will pay you what I owe you. And I know the timing is horrible, so they spoke amongst themselves and then came back and said, we trust you. We're going to stay, go find the money. And I said, you got it.

Guy Raz (43:03)

Okay. How did you find the money?

Josh Hochschuler (43:05)

Went to the bank, signed for more.

Guy Raz (43:07)

And they gave you money?

Josh Hochschuler (43:09)

They gave me more money.

Guy Raz (43:10)

Even though you were heavily in debt?

Josh Hochschuler (43:12)

Heavily in debt.

Guy Raz (43:13)

Oh, man. The early 2000s. What a time. What a time.

Josh Hochschuler (43:17)

It was unbelievable.

Guy Raz (43:18)

But it was like a personal loan you took out or what?

Josh Hochschuler (43:21)

Yeah, personal loan. I remember because I'd been waiting to get the news, waiting to get the news, waiting to get the news. And it was amazing news. And then, of course, we stayed in business. But it was a moment the entire time. Every time I would call my father and say to him, you know, this is happening and this is hard, and I'm worried about this. And he'd say, you keep going. It will work out. You keep going. It's going to be fine. And this time I called him and he said, you know, maybe you're going to have to close the doors. And that was just heartbreaking. But we didn't. We made it through. It was a real crisis moment.

Guy Raz (43:53)

I mean, it must have been. It was a loan that was big enough to cover payroll, but it was not. I imagine it wasn't a giant loan. It was probably a couple, you know, few. Maybe 10, $20,000.

Josh Hochschuler (44:03)

I think it was more than that. I think it was like 70 or $80,000, but it was. It was way more than they probably should have given me. But they did. Back then, it was like, why do you only want 70? Take 80. It worked out for me. It saved the business.

Guy Raz (44:15)

But you are still okay. So now you've got some cash to keep the business going. You're in Costco. You're in a few Costcos in Texas are doing these road shows. Being in Costco must have given you visibility, guys. That's what happens. Like, other people who work for other brands will see you somewhere and they'll say, oh, this is an interesting product. Did any of that happen? Did you start to get contacted by other grocery companies or.

Josh Hochschuler (44:40)

Yeah, yeah. So that is true. That's helpful. But it's also, if you can have good numbers and show what you're able to do and tell the story, it's incredibly helpful in sales meetings. And so that's the point when we started going around and meeting literally in the stores with the frozen aisle manager, who could be a teenager, and saying to them, look, we're selling here, we're selling there. Let us go on your shelf. Try us out. And that was starting to go into 2007. And that's kind of how we started getting more and more stores in 2007 was meeting with the frozen aisle manager.

Guy Raz (45:17)

But these aren't independent grocery stores.

Josh Hochschuler (45:19)

So Whole Foods was way different back then. Each store had a lot of autonomy, and they were able to take us on. So that would be one example. But there was some other specialty stores that were just getting started. Maybe you've heard of Sprouts. Of course, at the time, Sprouts had very, very few locations. They're out of Arizona. But they had come to Texas and they had opened, I think it was two locations in all of Texas. And so that would be another example. So we were able to get into these kind of specialty markets that had the autonomy to be able to make these decisions and put us on shelf.

Guy Raz (45:55)

Let's talk for a moment about the packaging, right? Because part of, I think, of what's really distinctive about Talenti is the pints, right? Like the clear plastic containers where you can actually see the gelato, right? And it makes the brand stand out on the shelves. I mean, what was it packed in at the time?

Josh Hochschuler (46:15)

So way back in 2004, when I started at that first specialty store, in the very, very, very beginning, I was doing it in those little tiny styrofoam containers that they use in other countries often. Shortly thereafter, I had gone to a trade show. It was actually in Italy. They had a new display case that rather than having metal pans, it was made out of transparent plastic. That pan allowed for you to see the ribboning, all the different swirls, the bits and pieces, the inclusions. And so I was like, wow, I should try to do something like that on the shelf in a supermarket. So I came back and I found a jar, and I showed it to my wife and I said, what if I were to package it in this? And she said, that's a terrible idea. That looks like a urine sample jar. No one's going to ever buy anything from that. But I wasn't discouraged. I said, no, no, no. It's going to be great. You'll see. Watch, watch. Watch. So I came up with the pack that was pretty early on. That was still in 04. The concept of not being in cardboard when there was a sea of cardboard and coming out with something completely different that would hopefully generate trial started pretty early on. It started in 04.

Guy Raz (47:25)

Okay. So 2007, you get into more Whole Foods, locally, and then Atlanta and Denver. Business is starting to pick up. How are you financing this? I mean, again, these businesses are paying you at 30 days. You've got to make the product, deliver it. And you're not a cash rich business at this point. So I imagine you're once again running into challenges.

Josh Hochschuler (47:50)

Yes, finances were very, very tight. And then the salesperson that we had knew of a friend in Minneapolis and he helped us get a couple of chains in Minneapolis. And I knew that I couldn't just keep going into further debt. And I had started to go out and try to find a more sophisticated investor, a bigger investor to come in and put in some real money to give relief to these investors that I've been carrying since the days of the store.

Guy Raz (48:23)

And did you want just investors or did you want operators to come and work with you?

Josh Hochschuler (48:28)

I really wanted smart money. I was trying to find someone who I thought could bring a lot of value. I started to feel like I really don't know what I'm doing. And I need someone who has more experience in this, who can show me the way. I think I have a great product and I've got all the energy in the world to go and make it happen. But I don't know exactly how that works. And I need help with the expertise.

Guy Raz (48:51)

Okay, so you're looking around and you get somehow connected to these guys, Steve Gill and Eddie Phillips. Before we talk about who they are, how are you connected to them?

Josh Hochschuler (49:00)

So in 2007, a friend from college was in town. He had done public relations for Steve and Eddie at Belvedere Vodka when they still owned it.

Guy Raz (49:11)

These guys had founded Belvedere Vodka.

Josh Hochschuler (49:13)

Yes, and Chopin Vodka.

Guy Raz (49:15)

Okay.

Josh Hochschuler (49:15)

At that point they no longer owned them. They had sold them. They sold them to Louis Vuitton Hennessy. But they were kind of now wanting to do something again. But I didn't know that. But this friend of mine from college had come to Dallas and we were together and I said. He said, what are you going to do? How are you going to finance this thing? Things are going well as far as the top line, but it is unsustainable what's happening here. And I said, I'm so anxious, so much need to meet someone, you know who would be perfect is these guys that you just did this PR for. And he said, well, hold on, I'm friendly with them, and picked up his phone and called them and said, hey, Steve, you should meet this guy Josh. He has a business. He'd love to tell you about it.

Guy Raz (49:57)

And you thought they would be good partners. I mean, you didn't know yet, but you thought. I mean, they were in alcohol. It was a different. Completely different business. But you thought, look, they built two great brands. They might be good to work with me.

Josh Hochschuler (50:08)

Absolutely. I saw a lot of similarities. I saw, you know, their brand. They came out, they were much more expensive than the competition. We were more expensive than the competition. Not to that extent, but we were more expensive. They invented the bottle that you could look through the window and see the image on the back. So they had this innovative packaging. I just was like, these guys know a lot about branding, and they've had tremendous success. They've been down that road as entrepreneurs. So I called and said, you know, I really want to come meet with you guys. I had just had my first child. And they go, come, come. We'll give you a few minutes. And in their minds, it was. They were just doing this PR guy a favor. There was no real thought that anything would come from this. But I went there and I sat down in their offices, and I was very intimidated at the time. I'm sitting there as a massive office, and they come walking in this huge boardroom table and sat down, and they're like, all right, you got a few minutes. Tell us what you're thinking. And for some reason, they thought it was a retail concept, and they were not interested in retail. But then I explained to them, no, this is wholesale. This is wholesale, and this is what we're doing. And they're like, oh, we like it. Then I had brought product with me, and I had them taste it, and they loved it. They thought it was amazing. They loved the pack. And they said, make us a proposal.

Guy Raz (51:26)

And I guess they ended up putting in a million bucks into the business.

Josh Hochschuler (51:30)

Yeah, there was, like, we needed to sign some, get some bank loans or line of credit or things like that. So there's. Their balance sheets helped with getting approvals on those things. But, yeah, they put in money, and they bought out all of my original storefront investors.

Guy Raz (51:49)

When we come back after a quick break, how this fresh investment marked a new phase of Josh's business and eventually lead to a phone call from one of the biggest consumer products companies in the world. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built this. How I Built this is supported by Ring. With Ring, you can be there from anywhere with doorbells and cameras that help you see more to exciting features that help you know more to the app that lets you connect more see more at the front door, up high and down low with battery doorbell's head to toe video capture it all all day and all night and get smarter alerts that know the difference between a person and a package right in the Ring app. I use Ring to check in on my dog when I'm out of the house or running errands just to make sure everything's okay. It's awesome because I can see her wherever she's in the house. With Ring, you can check in and be there from anywhere. Some features require a subscription and are available only on select Ring devices. Exclusions apply. Learn more@ring.com can AI predict the source of the next global pandemic? Or at least help convince a Hollywood studio to buy a new screenplay from Scott Z. Burns, the writer of Contagion, with special guest appearances from director Stephen Soderbergh, Laurence Fishburne and Jennifer Ely? Don't Miss what Could Go Wrong, a deeply thoughtful, occasionally frightening and often hilarious Audible original podcast that delves head and heart first into today's burning can humankind and AI actually work hand in hand? Follow Scott and an ever expanding cast of AI generated partners, including Lexter, an extraordinarily gifted, sharp tongued AI as they co write and pitch Hollywood execs the Contagion sequel. Hear what Could Go Wrong now on audible. Go to audible.com whatcouldgo wrong the next act begins with a prompt. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy Raz. So in 2007, Josh brings in two seasoned entrepreneurs, Steve Gill and Eddie Phillips, as investors in talenti. And at first the idea was that the pair would simply be passive investors and board advisors, but soon that arrangement would change.

Josh Hochschuler (54:31)

I think it became clear pretty quickly that it would be much better if Steve got involved in operations. It didn't take long to figure that out, mainly because I think he's an incredible operator. He really knows how to build and run businesses. He became like a business mentor for me and he was just a natural at leading and a lot of marketing and sales as well as finance. He's very, very strong in those areas.

Guy Raz (55:01)

All right, you brought in that money fortuitously because we're about to enter a dark period in the, you know, starting in 2008 with a financial crisis that would last at least two years. How were you affected by this significant downturn in the economy?

Josh Hochschuler (55:17)

Oh, it was horrible for us. A few things that happened. There was a large sale that was made to a distributor. The understanding was that would then go to these different customers. What wasn't realized was that had it not been sold to those customers, we get it all back. So we got that sent back to us and you can't then resell it. So that was trash. So that was a hard one. Steve really took over most. I would go with him, but he was heading up VP of sales, managing sales. I really dedicated most of my time to product and manufacturing and more of the trade. And so we lost money. We lost considerable money that year. A lot of bad debt and there was no more money out there. By the end of 08, it's right up. There was nothing left.

Guy Raz (56:05)

And so you were, you were making more product because you were growing, but you couldn't finance it.

Josh Hochschuler (56:10)

Right.

Guy Raz (56:11)

So by 2009, I mean now again, Steve and Eddie, these guys had made money, a lot of money selling Belvedere and Chopin vodka. So now I'm assuming they become the bank in 2009.

Josh Hochschuler (56:25)

Absolutely. So the end of 08 till through 09, let's call it. And that was the period of needing to live to see another day. And those two gentlemen, for the most part, funding that.

Guy Raz (56:39)

What was it about this that I mean, I'd have to ask them. But why did they believe in this business so much? I mean, it's vodka makes sense to me. It's shelf stable. They're not. I mean, it's complicated. You're dealing with. It's a highly regulated business and industry. But, you know, you don't have to deal with putting it in cold storage and it going bad and shelf life. And once it clicks, you're good to go. Ice cream is tough business. I mean, these are smart guys. What attracted them to this thing?

Josh Hochschuler (57:10)

Again, you would have to ask them. But my best understanding from just having spoken to them about it is they liked the size of the category a lot. It had been boring for so long. Nothing had happened in that category forever.

Guy Raz (57:23)

It was Haagen Dazs and Ben and Jerry's.

Josh Hochschuler (57:25)

Yeah, forever. So it was exciting to come and disrupt and then start taking away enough market share to just completely become a nuisance to them until they have to buy us. And so they had been through it. They had been wildly successful and they thought that they would Be able to, together with me, repeat that, that series.

Guy Raz (57:47)

Of events that eventually they could sell it to a bigger brand.

Josh Hochschuler (57:49)

Yes.

Guy Raz (57:50)

So, okay, so they, they're excited about this category. They see potential and they see the possibility of one day maybe selling it to one of these bigger companies. But. But in the meantime, you've gotta finance the business. What was the playbook here? Okay, so you've got the financial crisis, but you gotta grow. And so you have to invest in factory equipment automation. You can't hand pack this stuff because I think you were still hand packing it in.

Josh Hochschuler (58:18)

In 2008, there was an evolution of the packing. You know, we went from packing with a spatula to where we were moved to what's called a continuous freezer. And it would actually flow out as if it were coming out of a hose. And which made it easier to pack. But still it was not automated. We did not automate.

Guy Raz (58:37)

Oh, you had to hold the hose yourself.

Josh Hochschuler (58:39)

You had to hold the cup underneath the spigot. It was like a. It was like in the kitchen, faucet it and fill and then put the lid on and then keep doing that one by one. One by one. Yes. And. And we had multiple of these machines, so we were not doing one at a time, but each machine would do one at a time. And we didn't really automate to fillers until pretty much 2012.

Guy Raz (59:01)

So, okay, so 2008, the money dries up from the banks. You've got 2009. And that year, based on the numbers I've seen you, you go from to 6.8 million in sales.

Josh Hochschuler (59:13)

That's right.

Guy Raz (59:13)

So that's significant. Did it still feel scary or were you feeling more confident? Like, okay, we're turning a corner here. Despite the financial crisis, I would say.

Josh Hochschuler (59:24)

It was either the end of 09 or 2010 when it was feeling really good. The big turning point of 09 was that we really wanted to get into Publix, which is a chain in Florida.

Guy Raz (59:39)

Yeah. Why'd you want to get into Publix?

Josh Hochschuler (59:41)

Publix, it's looked at as a leader in the industry. People focus on what they're doing. They're trendsetters. It also is in Florida, and Florida helps offset the seasonality of the business.

Guy Raz (59:53)

Whereas it's always. People are always eating ice cream.

Josh Hochschuler (59:56)

And especially, you know, they get the snowbirds. They get a lot of people in the winter when we don't have much going on elsewhere. So that's a huge plus. They have of a ton, ton of locations. They own Florida. So you had the ability to do tremendous business with them. And we wanted to be able to show a win at a big chain. What ended up happening was we went and pitched to them. We get a phone call from the broker and he said, I got bad news. Unfortunately they decided not to go with you. This was in the very beginning of 09. And we said, no, no, no, no, no, no. Cannot be, cannot be. So Steve said, call the buyer and tell him, I just want 30 minutes with the guy. Any 30 minutes he wants. I just want to talk to him face to face. Get me a meeting. So he calls us back and he says, you got your meeting. That's the good news. The bad news is it's Tomorrow morning, like 8:30 in the morning, and we're sitting in Dallas, Texas. It's five something in the afternoon. So I'm like, oh my God, go to the airport, go to the airport. So he just gets in his car. So driving the airport at the time, you could not go into Publix without wearing a suit and tie. So I call his wife and we're saying, grab a suit, grab a tie, stick it into an envelope in a FedEx, go to a FedEx location, and within a short period of time, I will have an address for you. So we find some little motel hotel on the side of the road, have her overnight at first thing, delivery by 7am he gets, catches the flight, gets there, puts on a suit, makes it to the meeting, tells the guys, you've got to give us a chance. You have to let us in. We are going to make you look good, we're going to sell well and it will be good for your career. So he says, well, how are you going to do that? And he says, well, you know, I have done this before, but we're going to do it. And he goes, no, I want to know how. And so Steve just goes, radio. And he goes, really? Radio? He goes, yeah, radio. He said, well, how much are you going to spend on the radio? He says, $500,000. So we ended up getting the business after that meeting. And Steve calls me and he says, good news, bad news. Good news is I got us in. And I'm like, oh, amazing, amazing. He goes, bad news is we've got to come up with $500,000 to pay for radio. I just guaranteed them.

Guy Raz (62:02)

Wait, wait. Basically Steve's pitch then was, take our product and we'll go and sell it with radio ads.

Josh Hochschuler (62:08)

Exactly.

Guy Raz (62:09)

And what did the ad say? Because it's a visual thing. You see the ad, you want to taste it. But what did the radio ads say?

Josh Hochschuler (62:17)

I think I still have them. I'm going to send them to you. But they're really funny. The ads themselves talked about that there was a clear jar on the aisle. So it talked about the pack and it talked about the brand. People ask why Talenti gelato and Sorbetto come in a clear jar instead of a typical carton. Well, we're showing off. We want you to see nothing except the finest, all natural ingredients sourced from all over the world. And it played over and over until that buyer called us and said you weren't kidding about your spend. I can't get to work in the morning with a without hearing your ad on the radio. Look for Talenti gelato and Sorbetto at your local public supermarket, where shopping is a pleasure.

Guy Raz (62:55)

And did it have an impact?

Josh Hochschuler (62:57)

I think it did. I mean, our sales were great. We came out of the gates just blazing, and it just kept going up and up and up.

Guy Raz (63:05)

All right, so 2010 really is when you start to see the light. Now you're really growing. I think by 2011, you're doing 26 million in sales. And I imagine, really supercharged by the publics in Florida.

Josh Hochschuler (63:21)

Yeah, we took that success and went around to all different chains. Kroger's the biggest, and we started gaining distribution just across the country. And a lot of sales people were buying it.

Guy Raz (63:35)

So clearly this playbook is working and people are discovering this ice cream. I think you hit $95 million in 2013, and the team is just exploding. Right. And are you. Were you technically or officially the CEO of the business?

Josh Hochschuler (63:54)

So I think for a while it was Steve was CEO and I was president, basically running it together. Eventually, as we hired more C suite on, I took on the title of founder. But until the very, very, very end, it was Steve and I running. Running that business.

Guy Raz (64:12)

And did you like. Did you. It sounds like that was a better arrangement for you. Like, you had been doing operations and payroll and admin for so long on a smaller scale, but it's a grind.

Josh Hochschuler (64:23)

Yeah. I came to the conclusion that there was a concept where there's certain people that like to do businesses on their own, and I don't like that. I like having a partner because both in the hard times and in the good times, I like being able to share those times with someone who knows every single detail of them that there's nothing that you have to explain.

Guy Raz (64:40)

So traditionally, once a brand reaches 100 million in sales, it really starts to get the attention of the Big players. Right. Because it's growing and it's maybe not yet a threat, but it is certainly a competitor now. And you guys reach almost 100 million sales in 2013. And I imagine that's when you start to see maybe interest from outside companies or maybe you guys start to approach or hire like a law firm to see if there might be any interest.

Josh Hochschuler (65:14)

So we hadn't approached anyone. The business at that time was owned by three people. It was me, Steve and Eddie's son had taken his. Had inherited his shares.

Guy Raz (65:25)

And Eddie Phillips had unfortunately passed away in 2011 and his son had taken over a guy named Dean. Dean Phillips, who actually became a congressman and then briefly ran for president.

Josh Hochschuler (65:38)

That's right, Dean Phillips.

Guy Raz (65:39)

Yep. Yep.

Josh Hochschuler (65:40)

So we weren't actively looking to sell the business. In fact, we felt as though it was still growing really strongly.

Guy Raz (65:47)

And no serious competitors yet. I think Haagen Dazs was starting to launched its own Gelato and Breyerswood, but there wasn't any head to head competitor yet.

Josh Hochschuler (65:57)

Yeah. And it's hard to come out and be behind the original authentic one. So, no, we weren't. But then Unilever actually came to us. They came to us in 13, said, this is the call you've been waiting for. And said, we want to buy your business. And we're like, well, it's not for sale. We're not selling.

Guy Raz (66:16)

Wow.

Josh Hochschuler (66:17)

And that started this. At least I think it was a year and a half back and forth with those guys. We just didn't feel like we were ready to sell yet.

Guy Raz (66:26)

Why not?

Josh Hochschuler (66:27)

You know, I think you start thinking to yourself, is this a business I want to run for a very long time and bring my children into it and make it a family.

Guy Raz (66:40)

Because you're 40, you're like 40, 41 at this point.

Josh Hochschuler (66:43)

Yeah, yeah. And I was having children. Do I want this to continue and then expand it into different novelties or what have you, other products and bring my sons in and make this kind of my life's journey or do I want to be more of that serial entrepreneur? And so that was a lot of the thinking. My father had a lot of influence on me and he thought it was a good idea to take some time, chips off the table. Although the company was very profitable. But we just kept pouring it all back right back into the business to.

Guy Raz (67:15)

You were making a decent salary probably by that point.

Josh Hochschuler (67:18)

Yeah, yeah, I had a nice salary that was able to, you know, go out for dinner and. But in any case. And my father said, look, I Don't care what you're worth. It doesn't matter to me if you have money. He says, I just think that to be able to sleep well at night, it's nice to have a nest egg that you. You can depend on. And I'm just proud of you because you're a good person. And that meant the world to me. And that helped me get over that.

Guy Raz (67:42)

So you decided, let's investigate this sale.

Josh Hochschuler (67:46)

Yes, that was. It wasn't just me alone, but, yes, we. It was a lot of back and forth. We kept thinking, oh, we're going to. This time we'll get there. This time we'll get there. And we were too far apart. So it took almost a year and a half, I think, before we were able to finally say, okay, we're ready.

Guy Raz (68:06)

To do this right, I think. In December of 2014, Unilever announces that they've acquired. They will acquire Talenti the acquisition figure is. Was undisclosed. But it was a lot of money. And you had some incentives to stay on, I think, for roughly two years.

Josh Hochschuler (68:24)

That's right.

Guy Raz (68:25)

First of all, so coming into, you know, now you're, I mean, you're 41 and have enough money to stop working at this point. How did that change your life? Did you buy a bigger house or did you. Were you able to, you know, you were able to do those things.

Josh Hochschuler (68:44)

For example, was able to be more charitable in my giving. That was something I'm proud of. Ended up buying a ranch, so some.

Guy Raz (68:54)

Land outside of Dallas.

Josh Hochschuler (68:56)

Yeah, kind of like a nice place for the family to get away on the weekends, here or there, play sports, fish, that sort of thing. So I guess that would be a material difference. But my wife said to me, go buy something. You just did this. Go buy something.

Guy Raz (69:13)

Go buy yourself a watch.

Josh Hochschuler (69:14)

Go buy yourself something. And I said, I don't know, what am I gonna buy? And she goes, just figure it out. You got it. I insist you buy something. So that last night when we sold the business to Unilever, we had gone out, the investment bankers were ordering Macallan 25.

Guy Raz (69:31)

That's an expensive scotch.

Josh Hochschuler (69:33)

It was something like, God, I don't know, $250 per ounce that they were drinking anyway. So they're passing it around, like, everyone smell it, don't drink it. Just smell it. Because it's too expensive. Can't drink it. So then they down it, and next thing, everyone's laughing. And they bought everyone around of this scotch, which I was never able to afford before that. I'd never tasted it So I said, you know, that was such a fun night. I would like to go buy a bottle of that and hold it for special occasions. And so that's what I did. I bought a bottle of that. That was how I celebrated. And whenever I open it, whether that be a birthday or a big milestone in someone's life, we always write down on the bottle why I'm having a sip of it to celebrate the date and the. The event.

Guy Raz (70:13)

That's a nice tradition. Buy a $2,000 bottle of Scotch and then write down every time you take a little sip of it.

Josh Hochschuler (70:19)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Guy Raz (70:22)

So you end up. Now you become an employee of Unilever for at least two years. And imagine they just have you run in Dallas. Right. You don't, like, move to Hoboken or London or Rotterdam or wherever their offices are, do you?

Josh Hochschuler (70:38)

No. And part of the negotiation. So Steve had been through the whole Belvedere experience, and they wanted him to live in Paris, and then they were like, counting his days of vacation. And so, like, he didn't want to feel like he was going back inside some sort of cage. So the negotiation involved a lot of freedom on our part. However, they knew that we were incredibly motivated to see this through because you.

Guy Raz (71:02)

Had incentives, big time incentives.

Josh Hochschuler (71:05)

So we were incredibly motivated to work very, very hard and make sure that they were left with a beautiful business. And so by the end of 16, we had hit 245 million in sales and it was extremely profitable and they got what they paid for.

Guy Raz (71:21)

And at that point you were like, okay, this was fun, but I really don't want to work for a big company.

Josh Hochschuler (71:25)

Right. I stayed on for three years as a consultant with a number, a handful of maybe a week or two a year. I would be involved with them, and they were great. They were a very, very stand up, impressive organization and company. So I'm very happy about that. It makes. It made me very proud that the person who took over what was like my baby was a company that makes me proud.

Guy Raz (71:47)

We didn't talk. We talked a little bit about your personal life. You got married and raised a family throughout this whole building this business. But I. I think you now have, what, five children?

Josh Hochschuler (71:57)

Yeah, five kids. Yeah. Three boys and two girls, all under the age of. The oldest is 17.

Guy Raz (72:04)

Right. So the oldest really was on that journey kind of with you. Right. And some of them were probably born after the acquisition.

Josh Hochschuler (72:12)

Yes, for sure. The youngest two, both girls were born after.

Guy Raz (72:16)

And how did you just, as a dad manage that? I mean, I believe that you're Your wife was sort of manning the home front for a lot of that, but I imagine you didn't want to be away from your kids. So how did you manage being a dad and having the responsibilities of raising a family while also running a business and trying to get this off the ground?

Josh Hochschuler (72:41)

So there's nothing more important to me than family, and I am incredibly involved in my children's lives and together with my wife. But I definitely was a workaholic for a long time. And it was about February of 2006 when my wife and I decided that we would start keeping Shabbos, which is the Jewish Sabbath. The Sabbath, Yeah.

Guy Raz (73:04)

Which means you do not use electricity, you don't answer the phones, you don't drive.

Josh Hochschuler (73:09)

Correct? Yeah, all of the above.

Guy Raz (73:11)

That's. So you started this in 2006 when you were not in a secure position in the business at all.

Josh Hochschuler (73:17)

I was terrified. I left. I remember leaving that Friday and thinking to myself, you know, what happens? You know, how is this going to work? Like, what happens if there's, God forbid, a fire or, you know, it's an important day of the week, Saturdays. And it took a very long time to get over this. I'm not going to work for that day. I'm done working. I will have faith in God that the business will be okay for 25 hours. And it really helped our home life tremendously because, as my wife used to joke, she's like, thank God for Shabbos. I wouldn't get to see you otherwise. So she knows she has me that timeframe together with the kids, with uninterrupted, completely focused on our faith and our family.

Guy Raz (74:03)

And this is the thing. There's so much research around this. Right. People who take a day off or, you know, who meditate or who just unplug. And lots of people do this, whether they're religious or not. And it sounds like you credit that with. Even though I'm sure it was. You were anxious at the beginning. Right. Oh, what's going on? It's. I can't answer my phone. But I'm sure over time it became like this really meditative day of rest, which is what, you know. Right. God created the world in six days, and then the seventh, he rested. So there's a reason behind that.

Josh Hochschuler (74:37)

Yeah. It's hard for me now to imagine any other way. Completely look forward to it kind of resets everything, perspective and on life and et cetera. So, yeah, now, I mean, once you get past the initial fear and can have real trust and faith and you move on and you learn to love it and live it and enjoy it. So it plays a huge role for us and for our children and for the way that we raise our, our family.

Guy Raz (75:02)

So basically, every time you, you know, from starting in 2006, whenever you work with somebody, or even when these partners came on 2007, it was very clear, like, listen, you need to know I don't work on Saturday. I don't answer the phone. I use electricity. It's non negotiable. You could say that at the front and sort of set expectations, I guess.

Josh Hochschuler (75:21)

Yeah, yeah, it was. Well, Eddie Phillips was Jewish, so he understood a lot of what I, what was important to me. Steve has enjoyed the kind of learning about this and being involved and speaking to me about it, et cetera. And funny enough, during Passover, there's certain rules. You're not allowed to own certain things, one of them being food that you're not allowed to eat during that period. So I would have to sell him the business and he would have to give me $20 and have a handshake. And the rabbis would have to see that this was happening with the handshake through a picture. And so after a number of years, he said to me, is this real or you just want $20 from me every year? What's going on? What's going on? So we've had fun with it. We've had fun with it.

Guy Raz (76:07)

Josh, when you think about this journey, starting this thing and really came out of not having a job at bank of Boston and all those years, it took you a long time. Start this in 2002, opened up a shop in 2003, and it really doesn't start to find its legs until 2010. So it's a long journey. When you think about that, how much of it do you attribute to luck and how much do you think has to do with the hard work you put in?

Josh Hochschuler (76:35)

I don't attribute to luck. I do think I've been blessed. Very, very blessed. And I think it's a team effort. But I feel extremely fortunate to God for the blessings in my life. And there's been this common thing that people like to call it an overnight success. But I say, yeah, it was a 15 year overnight success because it wasn't just from one day to the next. Like you said, there was a tremendous amount of hard work. It was a roller coaster ride and it was scary. And I think that's how a lot of these entrepreneurial businesses go. It's just so different from being an employee that you expect to get a check every two weeks when you go home and you worry about could there be a fire or you know, is there? I don't can't get robbed. There's just a different set of concerns that you have when you own. And starting a business is hard and it takes tremendous amounts of work and a lot of good fortune.

Guy Raz (77:35)

That's Josh Hochschuler, founder of Talenti, by the way, since selling to Unilever, Josh and I, Josh and his business partner Steve have been involved in a few other food based ventures. But then during COVID Josh got really into gardening as a hobby. So today he's working with Steve and Steve's brother Mark on a business in a totally new industry. It's called Greenacres Nursery and Supply. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the Follow button on your podcast Apps so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please sign up for my newsletter@guyraz.com or on substack. This episode was researched by Kerry Thompson and produced by Casey Herman with music composed by Ramtina Rabloui. It was edited by Kevin Leahy. Our engineers were Patrick Murray and Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, JC Hannah Howard, Chris Masini, Carla Estevez, Sam Paulson, Andrea Bruce, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery. Com. Survey the world needs ingenuity.

Josh Hochschuler (79:08)

Ingenuity needs accelerators.

Guy Raz (79:10)

That's where you come in.

Josh Hochschuler (79:12)

Be the tipping point from impossible to.

Guy Raz (79:14)

Impact At MIT Sloan School of Management.