Brad Baxter (6:07)

As a teenager, I spent a lot of my time drawing cars, fixing cars, fantasizing about cars. And so I was a real car guy, and I really wanted to get into designing vehicles, and I had an artistic streak, so I thought that might be a really interesting path. But I knew that I'd probably want to get an engineering degree as well, so that was kind of the path I took. And once I figured out that you actually had to study in college and that you couldn't just kind of breeze on by, like I did in high school, you know, I started to do okay, but I would say the first. The first year and a half were pretty rough.

Guy Raz (6:45)

So you go, you study mechanical engineering with the goal of getting a job for one of the big three. And indeed you did. You got a job with Ford after graduating. And I guess your dream was to be, as you say, a car designer. But that's not where you ended up, at Ford. I'm sure a lot of people wanted to go to Ford and become car designers. This is 1989. You joined Ford. What did you do there? What was your job?

Brad Baxter (7:10)

It was interesting because at the time, Ford was moving from what were analog displays like for the instrument clusters, to digital. So there was this big conversion going on, and you had to package all this electronics and plastics. So they were looking for engineers to work in that area within electronics division. So this ended up being actually a great foundational start for me because that's ultimately what I've ended up doing over my career, is working with plastics and electronics.

Guy Raz (7:41)

Yeah.

Brad Baxter (7:41)

And at first I thought, well, it's not exactly what I wanted to do. But you know what? I'm in Ford. I'm thrilled that I even got the job, and I'm going to make the best of it.

Guy Raz (7:53)

All right, so you get this job working on these component parts that are eventually going to replace the analog. All the analog components in the car, including probably the radio and the speedometer and everything in the car. How long did you stay at Ford?

Brad Baxter (8:10)

I was at Ford about two and a half, three years. And coming into the third year, I started to realize, and I had been told this by other people, that you got to be careful about the golden handcuffs at Ford. The benefits, the pay, all that become so good that you just can't leave, even if you thought you might want to try something else. So I knew that that was something kind of hanging over my head. And I realized, if I'm going to do something different, I better do it now before I really get those golden handcuffs.

Guy Raz (8:40)

That's amazing. I mean, to have learned or to have realized that at 25 because by that point you were probably making a good salary. And if you did everything right, it's a job for life.

Brad Baxter (8:51)

Yeah. And that's what scared me. Talking about salary, I remember my salary. It was $32,000. And I thought that was the most money in the world.

Guy Raz (9:01)

I mean, in 1989, that's a lot of money.

Brad Baxter (9:06)

Yeah. Well, what happened, even with the salary and all the benefits, is I realized that I kind of had some self introspection and I realized that I'm not really the kind of person that wants to be a manager at Ford Motor Company. And although I respected my managers and I thought they, you know, they did a great job and I learned a lot from them. I saw what they were doing and I knew, you know what, this really isn't for me. This is moving too slowly for me. And I think in larger companies, a lot of times you end up being frustrated because a lot of times you can see the answer, or at least I feel that I could see the answer. And it was a fairly common sense thing. But sometimes common sense is not the primary factor in a larger company. And so there's a lot that I'd like to do and a lot that I'd like to learn, and I'm not going to probably be able to do that as quickly as I'd like here at Ford Motor Company.

Guy Raz (9:55)

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you leave Ford and for a few years, I guess you went on to work for like a few different, like European auto parts companies. But eventually you sort of spin that kind of specialty into your own consulting business, I guess, where you're kind of like the liaison in Detroit for some of these European suppliers, like kind of helping out with engineering and logistical help and stuff like that.

Brad Baxter (10:22)

Yeah. It wasn't really the path that I had wanted to take, but it was, it provided something that allowed me to be independent, to do something on my own in which I, I would have taken that any over working for someone else. You know, it could have been anything. As long as I'm independent and I'm working for myself, I'm setting the, you know, I'm charting the course of the business where I want to go. That was the most important thing for me. It wasn't always that important about exactly what it was.

Guy Raz (10:52)

And once you'd started that you could probably could never go back.

Brad Baxter (10:55)

Yeah, you. I mean, I couldn't. I mean, I would die. I would shrivel up and die.

Guy Raz (11:01)

Yeah. So you. So, yeah, you're running your own business. It's not exactly what you want to do, but it's entrepreneurial, sort of just roughly like how much money, you know, could you, were you, were you able to make from that business?

Brad Baxter (11:16)

I think at the time I was, I would have been able to bring home probably 80 to $100,000 a year.

Guy Raz (11:23)

So it was a good job. You could raise a family on it. Yeah, but I, based on what I've read about you, your mind is constantly looking around for something else, something that might, I don't know, you might develop more of a passion around like a product. Like you were really thinking about being a product entrepreneur, Is that right?

Brad Baxter (11:46)

Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, I had had this dream to develop a product to be an inventor for many years, and I had dabbled in a number of different things, but never really hit on the one thing that I thought I could take to a business model. And product design was really one of my core skill sets too, is being able to take some kind of a functional requirement and then create it either through pen and paper and then onto cad. And then the other aspect was it's one thing to design a product, but it's another to make it manufacturable, inexpensive. All those things are integrated into the process of product development. And I had a, I think I had a knack for all of that and kind of integrating it all into a package.

Guy Raz (12:33)

So you had, and just, I think most people know this CAD is computer assisted design. You basically had the skill set because you had studied mechanical engineering and you'd been doing some of this work. And when you say you had like kind of dabbled in some ideas, what were some of the ideas you dabbled in or thought about?

Brad Baxter (12:51)

I think one comes to mind, we had young kids at the time and so one of the ideas was basically a stand that you would put your, the bottles that have the bags in them with the formula, you always had to push the air out. So I designed a stand that you would push the air out of the baby bottle. And the stand was just a simple stand to do that, that fit inside the bottle. And then it had like a hexagonal shape on the bottom of it so that if it tipped over, it wouldn't roll off the table and just simple stuff like that. But the truth of the matter was, is I had a lot of things kind of floating around in the back of my mind. But I was so busy running the business. I mean, it was a, it was a much more than even a full time job getting that, that business up and running, supporting These. These European suppliers. So there wasn't a lot of extra time to experiment with that stuff.

Guy Raz (13:49)

All right, so you have the. And, you know, I'm thinking, like, this is the late 90s. Who was like a famous inventor? Dean Kamen. Right. The guy who made the Segway. He was. I remember he was all over the news, and he's invented a bunch of stuff. And so, yeah, I mean, you're just kind of keeping your eyes open, and one day you start to think about cats and litter. Litter. Tell me how. What. What. What happened, how that sort of idea starts to percolate in your mind.

Brad Baxter (14:21)

Well, I had had a couple of cats, and I had been having some trouble with them. They were actually not going in their litter box. They were peeing outside of the litter box. And the reason for that is I wasn't getting down there quick enough to or often enough to clean the litter box. I was going down maybe every other day, and that was not enough for my cats. And so they would protest by peeing outside the box. And so one day I'm down there and I'm cleaning up the mess. I've got a bucket of water and bleach water. I'm on my hands and knees, I'm wiping up this urine. And this is not a fun task. And I'm thinking, man, I've got to figure out a way to keep this box clean all the time, because this is just driving me nuts. So that got me thinking about, well, how can I automate this? And it was more really about just solving my own problem at the time. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, wow, this could really be an interesting opportunity because there's really nothing out there that addresses this concern fully. There was at the time there was another automatic litter box on the market, and it just come out recently. It was Littermaid, and it was okay, but I ended up getting it to check it out, and it really did not work well with my cats. And that even prompted me to. To look into this even further.

Guy Raz (15:39)

So just to kind of. And I think people who have cats know this is. I'm a cat lover and a dog lover. I've got a dog and two cats. They. Cats are super clean. They do not like mess, and if the litter box is not clean, they do not like it. And by the way, I. I can totally relate to this because around that time, maybe a couple years later, maybe like 2003, my wife and I bought a litter maid, and it was like a litter box with teeth in it. Imagine a bunch of metal teeth at the bottom. And then when the cat would leave, it would go, zh. And it would sort of. The teeth would kind of sweep through the clumping litter, and then it would open up a box at the end of the litter box, and it would dump the stuff in there, and then the box would close. And the box was a disposable plastic container, but in fact, it didn't work well. And the box would constantly leak and be messy and gross. And they were. You had to throw them away. They were just like these big pieces of plastic you were constantly throwing away and refilling.

Brad Baxter (16:44)

Yeah, that's a great description. You got it right. Yeah, the littermaid was. And again, not to trash them or anything, but it was a very literal approach to the problem. But it doesn't really break down into its functions. And how can we best solve this problem? And that's what I tried to do. I tried to step away and look at it from a different perspective and say, hey, what am I really trying to do here? I'm trying to separate these clumps from this litter. What's the best way to do that? And so that's how I came up with the litter robot idea, was through sifting, not through raking.

Guy Raz (17:21)

Right. Because the human hand actually is an incredibly efficient tool, right? The wrist and the hand. And so when you're just scooping up the litter and you're shaking it and you can do a great job. But to have a rake just do that, it's. It's. It's gonna. It's like a sledgehammer. It's just not gonna. It's not. It's not gonna be an elegant fix, right? And so you're looking at this and you're thinking, well, all this is trying to do is to automate the human hand, right? Or a version of the hand, a rake system. But it might be better if there's like a sifting system rather than a rake system.

Brad Baxter (17:54)

Yeah, you are absolutely right. I mean, the dexterity that a human has using a scoop like that is so complicated compared to just moving a rake laterally through the litter. I mean, ultimately, you're just pushing a clump, which is like a snow plow, and it pushes all kinds of clean litter into the tray at the end as well as the waste. And so it's very wasteful. Just a lot of things going against it that don't work very well. So, again, there may be an easier way, a more convenient way, and a better way for you And a better way for your pet.

Guy Raz (18:27)

All right, so before you actually went to your computer assisted design to design this, which we'll talk about in a moment, you start to think, okay, this litter made thing, this rake system is not working. Maybe there should. Maybe the litter box should be more like a drum that rotates and then sifts out the clumps of litter. Yeah, a drum. Like in a cement mixer, the cat would go in, do its thing, jump out, and then the cement mixer would rotate and filter out the dirty litter.

Brad Baxter (18:58)

Yep. I was trying to think of ways to gently separate the clump from the clean litter, because one of the things that happens with the rake mechanism is that it breaks up the clump. And once the clump breaks up, you're leaving behind all these little nuggets that are going to smell.

Guy Raz (19:12)

Yeah, it's nasty.

Brad Baxter (19:14)

So just by turning the globe, you lift that litter bed up and then it starts cascading down. And then if you keep rotating, you can bring a screen around that starts passing into that litter that's cascading down very gently. It's kind of magical to watch it. I mean, this is a litter box, but okay, it is kind of magical to watch that screen just kind of rise up through the litter. The clump has been floating in there. The litter is cascading through the screen, and then within a couple of seconds, the clump is all of a sudden just sitting on top of the screen. It's not like the screen pushed it.

Guy Raz (19:47)

Yeah.

Brad Baxter (19:47)

And if it's going to break up, it breaks up on a solid surface and then it goes through the waste port, so everything is removed.

Guy Raz (19:53)

Okay, so you have this idea. Cool. But you are also a mechanical engineer and you know that there's a possibility that somebody might have already thought about this. And because you must have gotten pretty excited about this possibility because you ran a patent check, you looked to see if somebody had patented this idea.

Brad Baxter (20:11)

Yeah, that's right. I did get excited about the idea and I thought, well, if I'm going to pursue this, I better see if there's anything out there that I might bump into. And sure enough, I found a patent that was very similar to what I had been thinking about. And at first I was really kind of disappointed because I thought that was the end of it. But I thought more about it and I thought, well, you know what? I'm not really. It's not really that important to me who owns or who has the patent. I mean, that really wasn't the driving force here. It was. I Wanted to build a business around a great product idea, and if I could license this patent, that would allow me to do it. So that was really the path then that I took.

Guy Raz (20:53)

Okay, so the patent that you came across, it was not developed. It was just somebody had put the patent down and registered the patent. But it was not ever realized.

Brad Baxter (21:04)

Right. I mean, it was. He had done some prototyping, which was helpful. And I contacted him and I said, look, I've got an idea for a business, and I'd like to take your idea to production.

Guy Raz (21:17)

This was just to clarify, this was a guy named Don Reitz, I believe.

Brad Baxter (21:21)

That's right. Yep. He was actually very happy with the fact that there was interest and it was relatively low risk for him, because if I succeeded, he succeeded. If I didn't, it wasn't any skin off his nose. So I think he was happy that there was a chance.

Guy Raz (21:39)

So you guys come to an agreement and you start trying to design something. How long did you begin to work on something before you felt like, okay, this could be a prototype?

Brad Baxter (21:51)

Well, Don had developed a few prototypes, and so I brought those home with me, and I started modifying his prototypes because there were. There were a few things that had to be worked out. So I was modifying his prototypes. And once I got those things figured out, I kind of moved then into the CAD design. And I think the CAD design took me, I don't know, maybe three, four months, something like that. I was doing it in the evenings. I was still working the other job, of course.

Guy Raz (22:17)

All right. So you come up with something that you think is pretty good or good enough to make, and it's going to require a lot of plastic. But you're like, an expert in plastic manufacturing. You have all of these connections from the automotive industry.

Brad Baxter (22:32)

That's right.

Guy Raz (22:34)

And I think, if I understand this correctly, to make this thing, you decide to use a technique called vacuum molding, where I guess the plastic sheets are heated, and then it's kind of sucked onto a shape. It's wasteful and expensive in the long run, but in the short term, it's better because the alternative, I guess, would be injection molding, which means you'd have to, like, cast all of these different, you know, shapes and precision tooling. And that's really expensive at the beginning. Is that right?

Brad Baxter (23:04)

Yes. Injection molding is really expensive. And you want to make sure that you've got the design right, because if you have to change it, it's very expensive. And I just. I didn't have that kind of capital at the Time. And even though I was making okay money, I was funneling a lot of that money back into the business to grow the business. So I think at the time, actually I was taking a salary of about 50,000 and the rest was being poured back into the business.

Guy Raz (23:34)

Did you go out and raise any money? Did you ask people to help you out?

Brad Baxter (23:38)

Well, the first person I went to was my dad. And I said, dad, I've got this crazy idea, I want to develop this litter box. And I think I need about $30,000 to invest in the initial setup tooling. Are you interested in providing a loan for that? And he said that he was and that he would actually, if I was interested, he would be interested in becoming a partner, taking some equity in the company for. And so for $35,000, which they actually had to refinance their home to get the cash for that $35,000, he got 35% of the business.

Guy Raz (24:23)

So it was a big risk. I mean, 35 grand he had to refinance his home. I don't think your parents were wealthy at all, but he. I mean, he's your dad.

Brad Baxter (24:33)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (24:34)

These are very modest. And investments. I mean, 35 grand even in. In 1999. 98. But given your financial situation, his huge. And risky and scary. And you're also a dad at this point. You have three. Three kids.

Brad Baxter (24:50)

Let's see, our first was born in 95. We had two kids at that point.

Guy Raz (24:55)

Okay, but you're again mid-40s. You're not a 25 year old kid with no mortgage and no responsibility. Like you are going to put some considerable money into this thing. Your wife's got a job so you could depend on her income and then you've got your consulting job. So there's a lot going on. You're basically signing up to be a very busy person by pursuing this idea.

Brad Baxter (25:22)

Yeah, I was. I think when you talk about the risk standpoint, I think my dad figured that, look, my kid's not gonna stiff me on this loan or on this investment. So I think there was that. And then, yeah, my wife was a big part of the support mechanism that allowed me to do a lot of this because without her, it would have been a lot more difficult for me if I was the sole provider for the family. For sure.

Guy Raz (25:49)

Okay. So you have a plastics manufacturer that can make you the sort of the outer walls, but there's still other components in there. I mean there are electronics and their sensors. Right. Because it has to sense when the cat leaves the box. This is a Complex piece of machinery already in the late 90s. 98. Where did you get all of the different parts and how did you start to put them together? Because you weren't. I mean, you didn't have a factor. Were you doing this in your garage at home?

Brad Baxter (26:19)

Yeah. Working in automotive, I had contacts that were back at Ford Motor company working at electronics division. I had contacts that knew how to make circuit boards. I was able to tap into that as far as the building, the product. We did that in Pontiac, Michigan for a while, and I was actually the sole assembler for probably the first three or four months.

Guy Raz (26:42)

Doing it where in Pontiac, Michigan? At a warehouse you rented?

Brad Baxter (26:46)

Yeah, the building we were in actually was an old automotive factory. It was the original Oakland Automotive company, which eventually became Pontiac. And so we were in this. I think it's like a 1910 structure, and it's a concrete building, four stories tall. And it was on that fourth floor that we started building litter robots. And it was in the summertime and I can remember it being very hot up there because again, it was a concrete building. It didn't have any central air conditioning or anything like that. We had a window air conditioner, but that barely kept up because the concrete would heat up in the sun and it would just bake.

Guy Raz (27:24)

And just again, when you, you're a respected guy in a very respected industry, automotive, you know, supply chain, you know, this is like, you know, people are. These are country club set people, obviously the executives. When you went to some of your contacts and you said, hey, I've got a side project. I want to make a litter box, can I work with you guys? On Unlike the. Did any of those people say what, what, what, what?

Brad Baxter (27:56)

Yeah, there were, there were times when people kind of gave me a strange look. But look, I think they, they were happy to help me out. They. They may have thought whatever they thought, but as long as I was willing to pay them for their time and their effort, I think they didn't really mind or care what it was for. And I have to admit there were times when I, when I did feel a little embarrassed around it and. But I. To do it. And I thought it was, you know, the concept worked so well and I knew that there was a place for it, so I was driven to make it work. My kids were also very embarrassed. They never really wanted to say what their dad did. Yeah, they didn't really understand the other business, but they knew that I had something to do with cat boxes. And they didn't want to say that my dad made cat boxes when we.

Guy Raz (28:46)

Come back in just a moment. How a tough conversation with his wife leads Brad to completely retool the litter robot. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built this. Maybe you've stayed at an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb while you're away. Your home could be an Airbnb like the place I just stayed at in Palm Springs with an incredible kidney shaped pool and palm trees. It was just perfect. Maybe you're planning a trip for a long weekend while you're gone. You could Airbnb your home and make some extra money towards the trip. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host and now, a quick vital break. A little more from our sponsor, Vital Proteins. What is Vital Proteins? It's a supplement that has four benefits all in one product. It helps support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. Because as we get older, especially after age 30, our body's natural collagen production can start to decline by 1% per year, which can lead to things like fine lines, saggy skin, and your bones and joints just not moving the way they used to. Vital proteins can help. They're the number one brand of collagen peptides in the us. I take a serving of vital proteins every day to help me look, feel and move my best and I can really, really see the results. Get 20% off by going to vitalproteins.com and entering promo code bilteckout these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. One of the hardest parts about B2B marketing is reaching the right audience. For example, I get sent endless marketing emails from sales reps trying to get me to use their CRM platform. And to be perfectly clear, this is not in my wheelhouse, guys. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue, all the professionals you need to reach in one place. Stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. So you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com BuiltThis. That's LinkedIn.com BuiltThis. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the spring of 2000, and Brad is splitting his time between his day job in consulting and his daily obsession, making a better cat litter box. He hand assembles a a few of them at an old car factory and eventually brings one of them to a trade show.

Brad Baxter (32:08)

So In April of 2000, we went to a pet show out in California. I think it was in Orange County.

Guy Raz (32:16)

Yeah, it would be Anaheim Convention center.

Brad Baxter (32:17)

Probably the convention center there. And we took the litter robot there, and it was the first time the litter robot had ever been out in public. And that show was really interesting because people would come by and say, what is that? And I would tell them and then they would immediately say, oh, my cat would never go in there. So it wasn't very, in some ways very positive and uplifting because I was getting a lot of pushback on how weird it looked. But there were a few people that would come by and want to see how it worked. And as they watched it work, you could just see their eyes light up when the unit cycled and they saw exactly how it worked and how simple it was. So I was getting kind of a mix of positive feedback as well as sort of the. My cat would never use that kind.

Guy Raz (33:02)

Of feedback, but also just curiosity because it was so different and kind of.

Brad Baxter (33:06)

Weird and big too. It was quite large compared to what they were typically used to.

Guy Raz (33:13)

And you didn't have a live cat on scene to demonstrate?

Brad Baxter (33:18)

No. We were recycling clumps made with coffee or whatever we had.

Guy Raz (33:23)

And just to get a sense of the technology, the cat had to go in there. Right. And you had to make sure it wasn't going to rotate with the cat inside, like a laundry machine. So were the sensors like light sensors? Kind of like when you walk past a closing garage door, it stops because the sensors. Is it that similar kind of technology?

Brad Baxter (33:45)

Well, we have that technology today, but at the time, no, at the time it was just weight.

Guy Raz (33:50)

Oh, it was weight activated. So it would feel the weight of the cat when it jumped out, it would rotate.

Brad Baxter (33:54)

Right. It was just a very simple weight activated trigger switch. And that was it. Yeah, got it.

Guy Raz (34:01)

Okay, so you go to this trade show and do you sell any units there?

Brad Baxter (34:06)

I think we came away with about five orders and So I came home and immediately started making those five units. And it was shortly thereafter that we had launched our website, which is a complete homegrown type thing. There weren't any out of the box options at the time. I think we worked with a friend, a neighbor down the road that helped us with our very first website. And so we were into E commerce very early, just kind of by necessity due to the size of the product. And we didn't have a lot of margin in the product either.

Guy Raz (34:39)

This is 2001, I think, by the way. I went to the Wayback Machine and my team got me your original website. It is janky. Like I would look at this and think, this is a scam. This is not real. It's so funny to see it because E commerce was so weird and different. Even in 2000, 2001, it was like, you know, not a lot of people still trusted putting their website, their credit card into a website. And Amazon was around. And I think you also started to sell on Amazon initially, right?

Brad Baxter (35:11)

I think Amazon came a bit later. But you're right. I mean, the websites at the time were all basically homegrown. They all looked different. There were no standards. And we certainly fell into that category. And a lot of people would look at the website, but then they would call us. They wouldn't want to place an order on the website, they would want to call in. So we took a lot of phone orders during those days.

Guy Raz (35:34)

And I think the early models were like 300 bucks. Right. So not a cheap product. Certainly more expensive than a litter pan. How? How? I mean, I can't imagine you were selling that many in 2000, 2001.

Brad Baxter (35:50)

We weren't in it. And it was in some ways by design because like I mentioned before, we were trying to refine the product, trying to understand exactly how it would work the best, how the cats would use it. I mean, we would have certainly taken more volume if we could have gotten it, but it was kind of a blessing that the volumes were low because it allowed us to kind of take our time and learn and to adjust some things about the product. There's certainly quite a few things that we learned early on about cat behavior, how the cats would use it. And a lot of those changes got incorporated into the early models.

Guy Raz (36:23)

How much time, Brad, do you estimate you spent on the litter robot at the beginning and on your consulting business for your income to support your family?

Brad Baxter (36:31)

Well, my wife will tell you that at the time I was spending very little time at home. I was probably spending 12 to 14, maybe sometimes more hours a day working on both jobs. I can recall sometimes spending time in Pontiac late into the night and then realizing how late it was. And instead of going home, I just actually just slept on the floor.

Guy Raz (36:55)

Wow. So you're working crazy hours and trying to sort of, you know, grow this business, but you weren't making any money. So how are you financing the business? How are you paying for anything?

Brad Baxter (37:12)

Well, it was the other business that helped keep it alive. I mean, without that other business, it would have died very quickly because we would have run out of cash and there just wasn't enough. There was no profit for the first five years. And because of the manufacturing method that I chose, there wasn't a real strong possibility that I was going to be able to make a lot of profit on it going forward. Plus, it wasn't very scalable because you.

Guy Raz (37:39)

Were hand assembling each one.

Brad Baxter (37:40)

Yeah, it was hand assembly. Each one was kind of an individual project because of the inconsistencies of the parts from the vacuum forming. So it was kind of by design in the beginning. But then as the volume started to grow, I realized that even though the volumes were growing, I wasn't really able to make money because it was just so expensive to produce the product. And so at about five years in, I had kind of a come to Jesus moment with my wife about what am I doing? Because I was, at that time, I think I had dumped about 300 to $350,000 into the business just to keep it alive. And that was all coming from the other business. And I was taking a very minimal salary so that I could dump everything back into the automated pet care business and keep that alive. And my wife put up with that for five years. And then it kind of came to a head like, what are you doing? You know, why? Where's all this money going? And what's, what's the end game?

Guy Raz (38:37)

Yeah. I mean, you could have been putting that money in an index fund for your, for your financial future. Right. So from like a fiscal responsibility and by the way, no entrepreneurs, like, this is what you have to do. But from that perspective, right. From a risk mitigation perspective, you were not doing a responsible thing because at this point, you're now getting into your 50s and you're not taking the money that you could save and putting it into a retirement fund. You're putting into a business that could die, that could be worth nothing.

Brad Baxter (39:09)

Yeah, it was starting to feel irresponsible, especially to her, I think, and I certainly recognized it. And Knew that I had to do something fairly quickly and I did. I managed to work through some of my previous contacts and without any kind of financing, without a bank loan, without investors, I was actually able to retool the product by amortizing the cost of the tooling with one supplier that I work. And then I was able to take out a loan, a two year loan at 12% interest with another supplier that I had worked with. And through those connections, I was able.

Guy Raz (39:49)

To retool the product essentially to create the molds that would make it more cost effective.

Brad Baxter (39:56)

Right? Yeah. That was the big expense.

Guy Raz (39:59)

This is the thing your wife is saying. What's your wife's name, by the way?

Brad Baxter (40:02)

Margaret.

Guy Raz (40:03)

Margaret's saying, Brad, you know, we've put all this money into this business. I don't know whether this is the right thing to keep doing. And your response was, hang on, actually, let me see if we can retool the manufacturing process and I'll take a 12% loan out and. And I think that could do it. It wasn't. You know what, you're right. Let's just, let's just, you know, pack it in here.

Brad Baxter (40:29)

I don't think it ever really crossed my mind to do that, to fold. I got pushed a little bit and I think that helped because once I got pushed and I kind of went over the edge and decided I've really got to do this, I was super motivated to get it done. So I retooled that thing. I designed it and retooled it in the course of about 12 to 18 months. So I essentially took what was the previous design and just converted it to injection molding with a few things that I knew that I could add. But it was all about a race to getting it done as quickly as possible so that I could start making money on the product and keep the business alive. So, you know, these are the choices and the balance balancing act that you have to make as an entrepreneur. You know, what am I going to do here? Am I going to take some extra time and improve the design? Or do I take what is a, you know, a good design and just sort of replicate it so that I can at least start making money and move on from there?

Guy Raz (41:25)

Basically this thing was costing you $299. You were selling it for $299 before this change. It cost you roughly $299 just to build or more.

Brad Baxter (41:37)

It wasn't that bad. But with overhead and, you know, I guess when you boil it all down and you include Everything. Yeah, we were not making. We're not making anything.

Guy Raz (41:48)

You were subsidizing the consumer.

Brad Baxter (41:49)

Yep.

Guy Raz (41:51)

And so you knew that that was not sustainable. So you decide to shift to this more efficient, cost effective manufacturing process, which of course makes sense, but still, that's not guaranteed. Even if you could reduce the price by, I don't know, 20, 30%, your costs are 40%. You still weren't selling these things like gangbusters, right?

Brad Baxter (42:19)

No, the volumes were still pretty low, but we were growing organically and I could see the trajectory was moving in the right direction. And when we retooled, the product came out looking like a more refined product. I mean, when I look at it today, it looks pretty, pretty clunky compared to what we're producing today. But at that time, it was a refinement over what we had been producing. So we got a bump in sales from that.

Guy Raz (42:43)

Right, right. Roughly. Do you remember what were your sales like in 2005? Were you more than $10 million? Less? More than five.

Brad Baxter (42:53)

We were just under $1.5 million for the year.

Guy Raz (42:57)

Right. And this is six years into the business.

Brad Baxter (43:00)

Yeah, yeah. 2004 was the first year that we hit a million dollars, and that was a huge milestone for us. Prior to that, you know, the, the numbers were pretty small.

Guy Raz (43:12)

Did you at any point during this time think maybe we should? You know, because direct to consumer was so new, it was so niche. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people that you knew in Wisconsin were like, would say, oh, where can I buy it? And you would say, oh, we're selling it on the Internet. And they'd say, the Internet? You're selling it on the Internet? Well, what about in stores? Did you, did you ever, did you ever try and pursue that, that path? At the time, we did.

Brad Baxter (43:38)

I mean, we were trying to get into the stores all the time. And at the time, I thought that was our, our path to success was to get into retail because then we'd have all these eyeballs looking at the product and all these retail stores out there that would, you know, if they had 2,000 stores and you supply them each with two units, you know, that's pretty high volume. And so that was really what I was focused on. But, but we really didn't have the margin in the product, and most of the retailers wanted 50 points on the product, and there just was no way that we could provide that. We were maybe making 30 points at most on the product at the time. So there's no way really to make it attractive. To the retailer. Plus the unit was quite large.

Guy Raz (44:20)

Big. Yeah. Shelf space would be tricky.

Brad Baxter (44:22)

And so when push came to shove, when you really looked at it, it, it was actually quite ideal for direct to consumer because the product was quite large. And does the consumer really want to drag it home from the store or would they prefer to have it show up on their doorstep?

Guy Raz (44:37)

I guess by 2005, with the relaunch and the robot 2, the litterbox 2, you start to hit profitability and I imagine very small amount of profits. I mean, I mean, one and a half million dollars, you have five or six employees, you're running a really tight ship. And I imagine you're still far away from paying yourself anything at all. I wonder whether at this point you start to think, you know, maybe to sort of supercharge our growth. I should see if there's anyone willing to put money into this thing. Did you start to do that or have conversations with people or even seek that out?

Brad Baxter (45:21)

You know, we really didn't. I wasn't looking for investors. I wasn't looking to supercharge the business. I was kind of going for the long game on this. And I had a couple of offers to buy the business early on.

Guy Raz (45:37)

What did people offer you?

Brad Baxter (45:39)

One was from the competitor, Littermaid, and if I recall, I think it was a number around 200,000 to buy the patents. And I got the impression that they essentially wanted to just buy it and shut it down and not pursue it. And it really wasn't attractive to me because I thought it could be way so much more than that in the future. And so I really didn't consider that.

Guy Raz (46:04)

Wow. Because they were much bigger than you.

Brad Baxter (46:06)

Yeah, they were huge compared to us at the time.

Guy Raz (46:09)

I mean, it's crazy because it doesn't exist anymore, but they offer you 200 grand and forget it. You've already poured all this money into it. But you were comfortable with a sort of a slow growth model. You weren't worried at any point that somebody might come in and try and compete with what you were doing, create something that was differentiated enough where they weren't violating any patents.

Brad Baxter (46:35)

Certainly there was a worry about that, but not a strong worry. And I knew how hard it was to do what we were doing. And the other thing that I understood too is that with this kind of a product and something that's new like this, you have to have a very strong customer service presence. And from day one, whatever we could provide for customer service, we were doing it. It was a major pillar of our business. And part of the whole process. And I knew that that would be difficult to replicate for somebody trying to come in and compete with us. I mean, sure, it could have happened, but I just kind of stuck to my guns and I knew what, what was going to make it work long term.

Guy Raz (47:14)

How were you doing customer service with six people? Was everybody like answering calls? Were you answering calls?

Brad Baxter (47:20)

Yeah, I was answering calls. I had, eventually I had a person dedicated to answering calls. But I've answered hundreds, if not thousands of customer service calls over the years.

Guy Raz (47:32)

How are you balancing your life by 2010? I think 2012 is when you're still selling the Litter Robot 2 and starting to think about maybe the next iteration. But how are you again, you're living in Michigan and you're also doing consulting. You're still running the consulting business, working with European auto parts makers. Was it just that was your life? It was 12, 14 hour days, even 10, 12 years into the business?

Brad Baxter (48:04)

Yeah, yeah, it was really a grind for a while. But you know, going back to what I said earlier, I'd rather die than not be independent. So that's what it took to remain independent. And I had this dream of building a great business around a great product idea. And if I wanted to do that, I had to keep the other business going. I think over those years, one of the things I was able to do is compartmentalize things so I can focus. And that's maybe a problem I have is I get really, I can focus on something and I won't hear anything else going on around me. And so the, you know, the house can be burning down over here and I'm focusing on this to get it done. Even though this is happening over here. And I think you had to do some of that during those years where there were a lot of things happening and you just had to. It would be overwhelming if you thought about them all together. But by breaking them down and focusing on things, knocking them out one at a time, just focusing on it, finishing it and going on to the next thing, over time, that starts to build some momentum. Where you can really get in trouble is if you start trying to do too much all at once and you start thinking about all the things you have to do, it can just bury you.

Guy Raz (49:18)

All right, so you've got, you're growing slowly, but growing every year. Right. There's growth now from 2005 onward, and it was moderate growth.

Brad Baxter (49:28)

Right.

Guy Raz (49:29)

So we're not talking about like, you know, 100, 200% growth, maybe what, 5, 10, 20% growth year over year.

Brad Baxter (49:37)

Yeah, like from 2005 through 2010, I think on average about 25 to 30% per year.

Guy Raz (49:43)

Okay, so great. I mean, it's pretty good. Can you estimate how many of these things you'd sold by 2010? Like more than 10,000?

Brad Baxter (49:54)

By 2010 we had sold probably about 40 to 50,000 units.

Guy Raz (50:01)

All right, okay, so that's pretty great, right? But still you're 10 years in and did you see this as a, in any way, as a just a multi million maybe billion dollar company? Was that even in the way you thought about the potential for this business?

Brad Baxter (50:21)

I definitely thought of it as a multimillion dollar business. I can remember at the time, sort of the number that we were shooting for, the pie in the sky number was 20 million. That's where he wanted to take the business business. But that was, that was the long shot.

Guy Raz (50:40)

When we come back in just a moment, how Brad takes that long shot number and grows the business 10 times bigger and beyond. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built this. How I Built this is sponsored by Claude, the Go to AI Assistant. For millions of people and businesses around the world, the most helpful tools help you do your best work efficiently and reliably. And I've been using Claude to help organize my thoughts and brainstorm new ideas and discover things that I can't get answers to anywhere else. It's actually amazing. Whether you're drafting a business plan, analyzing market trends, preparing for a crucial negotiation, or simply trying to articulate your vision more clearly, Claude adapts to whatever you're working on. By using Claude as your personal or business AI assistant, you'll be in great company organizations like Salesforce, Figma, GitLab, Intercom and Coinbase all use Claude in their products. Give Claude a try for free at Claude.com that's C-L-A-U--E.com Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Tackle all the important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more. And if you're looking to grow your business internationally, Shopify has global selling tools to help you in over 150 countries in person. More your thing. Shopify's award winning point of sale connects your online and offline sales all in one place. With 99.99% uptime and the best converting checkout on the planet, you'll Never miss a sale again. Only with Shopify. Get all the big stuff for your small business. Right with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com bilt go to shopify.com bilt shopify.com bilt do. Hey, welcome back to How I Built this. I'm Guy raz. So it's 2015 and Brad's business, Autopets, is doing about seven and a half million dollars a year. Not bad. But he knows that in order to grow it, he needs someone who's better at marketing than he is. So he hires a guy named Jacob Zuppke to help. And you know, I've looked at your website for how it looked over many, many years and the comparison between what it looked like the year before you brought in Jacob Zuppke and then the year after is dramatic.

Brad Baxter (53:37)

Yeah, I think, you know, revamping the website was one of the first big steps that we had to take. We had sort of a retro look to our website prior to that, I believe.

Guy Raz (53:47)

Yeah, it's like the cartoon of like the Judy Jetson kind of woman on there.

Brad Baxter (53:53)

Yeah, yeah. And so it definitely needed some help. And you're right, I was, I'm not a good marketing guy. And the percent of revenue that you have to spend on marketing is usually more than you would imagine. And I think at the time when Jacob came on board, we were spending about 8% of our revenue on marketing, which I thought was just crazy, God awful amount. And then Jacob was coming to me and saying, well, can we bump it up to 10? Can we bump it up to 12? Can we bump it up to 15? And, and every time we did that we were seeing results because we were applying it in the right way. That in combination with a brand new product that we were launching. The combination of those two at the time really were very impactful for the company.

Guy Raz (54:37)

Yeah, the little robot 3 was more sleek, it looks more like a futuristic kind of product. And so he was pushing you to spend more on marketing, which is nerve wracking. But you would see results pretty quickly.

Brad Baxter (54:50)

Yeah, I think one of the breakout moments for us was really that Christmas holiday season. And this was kind of a unique idea that Jacob had. And it was called the 25 Days of Christmas. And what we did is we were sending litter robots to what you would call today as influencers. And every day we would have an event where we would, the influencer would talk about the litter robot, how they're using it, and then we would be Doing a giveaway as well.

Guy Raz (55:17)

They would talk about it where?

Brad Baxter (55:19)

On YouTube, Instagram.

Guy Raz (55:21)

Okay. Yep.

Brad Baxter (55:23)

So they would promote it and then we would do a giveaway. And this proved to be very successful. I think coming into that promotion, we had about 30,000 visitors to our site per month. And then I think we bumped that up to 3, over 300,000 due to that promotion. So it was just a huge increase in visitation to our site.

Guy Raz (55:41)

Did that also. Did you start to just see the growth of the business supercharged, like within a year or within less time than that?

Brad Baxter (55:49)

Yeah, we definitely did. I mean, we doubled our sales from 2015 to 2016.

Guy Raz (55:54)

Wow.

Brad Baxter (55:54)

And we maintained profitability, so really started to understand the importance of marketing and doing it the right way, targeted, focused, as well as sort of high funnel marketing, which is bringing people in that, you know, are unsure about the product. And it might take take six months, six to nine months to get that person to convert. But you've got to be spending money on that as well. You can't just be spending all your money on the conversions.

Guy Raz (56:21)

You know, I'm curious about something you. And I think to this day they're all designed and assembled in the U.S. i think many of the components are made in the US I'm assuming some of them are imported. But given so much of the component parts, the plastics are made in, like, Wisconsin to this day. Was there ever a point, you know, when you're doubling sales and you're where you were and somebody approached you, you thought, you know, maybe we should just move all this overseas? I mean, this is when so much offshoring was happening. You could have, I imagine, just found a factory in China, found a broker and agent there, and really increased your margins if you did everything in China.

Brad Baxter (57:07)

That's right. There was a lot of pressure at the time. And I remember this even in automotive, for automotive suppliers to move a lot of their production offshore. And we studied this and we found out that what it would cost us to ship the product from overseas to our warehouse is what it would cost us to assemble it locally. So it was kind of a wash in that regard. And then just having more control over the supply chain where we could be, you know, a little bit more just in time with our suppliers being local and we had to have a warehouse anyway for fulfillment. So it just kind of made sense to be vertically integrated for a lot of reasons.

Guy Raz (57:48)

Yeah. I mean, I want to go back to your consulting business because I think you stepped down running your consulting business in, if I'm not mistaken, 2017, I.

Brad Baxter (57:59)

Think it was actually 2019, but 2019, the last three or four years were a bit slower and kind of winding some things down.

Guy Raz (58:08)

Right. I mean, you were the CEO. When. When could you start paying yourself more money than you were making as a consultant?

Brad Baxter (58:15)

That was probably 2016, 2017.

Guy Raz (58:20)

So 17 years into the business.

Brad Baxter (58:23)

Well, I, you know, it's. It's a matter of priorities. I mean, I could have paid myself more, but I opted. I chose to turn everything back into the business as much as I could.

Guy Raz (58:33)

And you owned, I mean, Your dad owned 35%, and you owned the rest. So you had that, but still no outside investors until 2019, the same year you shutter your consulting business. It's amazing. 2019, December of that year, an investor comes in, Pondera holdings. They put in $31 million. You kept about 40, 43%. Your dad was able to cash out because he had 35%. So his initial $35,000 probably turned into, if I'm just doing back of the envelope math, maybe $9 million, $8 million.

Brad Baxter (59:14)

Yeah, it was a bit more than that.

Guy Raz (59:16)

Wow. A bit more or a lot more?

Brad Baxter (59:18)

Well, the business at the time was valued at $55 million.

Guy Raz (59:22)

Wow. That 35,000, that was one of the greatest investments in modern times.

Brad Baxter (59:29)

Yeah, it wasn't too bad. But through that deal, we were able to get my dad cashed out. I took a few chips off the table, but nothing was put on the balance sheet of the company. The company was operating profitably, and it didn't need outside funding necessarily. So just kind of an interesting point to make is that none of that, none of those funds were put on the balance sheet of the company. And just to clarify, too, it wasn't a majority ownership share. They actually bought 50%. Exactly. Of the company, and then Jacob and I owned the other 50%.

Guy Raz (60:03)

All right. But with this new involvement, you guys, I think, could start to reinvest profits back into the growth of the business. Right. You bought like a. A new building in Auburn Hills, and you could really start to accelerate the manufacturing process.

Brad Baxter (60:26)

Bringing on Pondera, our partners, kind of helped us, I would say, mature a little bit and having another set of eyes on the business that are looking at it from a purely business standpoint and being a little bit outside of the day to day stuff, because when you're in the business, sometimes you don't see some of the things you need to see. So I think it was helpful to have them as partners, and to this day, it's been helpful to have them as partners. And one of the things that they, they helped us with was to see that the trajectory of the business was going to outgrow the building that we were in. I mean, we already saw that, but it was more effect, it was more around, you know, how big are we going to go? And so we ended up adding another 160, 60,000 square feet.

Guy Raz (61:10)

And I think that also coincided or that that time or after that time with the, the latest, the Litter Robot 4. And, and also, I mean now it's a, I mean it's a high tech product even. It's connected to an app. You can see the cat's weight, you can track their usage, you can track, you know, the cleanliness of the whole box. Like there's a bunch of things that you can do now. And I mean, you're not just a litter robot company. You're like a data collection. You can collect data on animals and you sell a bunch of other things too. But that, it seems to me like the data side really became an important focus.

Brad Baxter (61:49)

Yes, it certainly has. So it's getting even more difficult now because it used to be just provide a great piece of hardware. Okay, that's great. But now you have to provide a great piece of, of hardware and match it with a great digital experience as well.

Guy Raz (62:05)

And, and also, I mean it, I guess it makes sense, right? You focus on brand and then you focus on product innovation. And, and, and you, you expanded what you sell. It wasn't just these automated litter boxes, but, but fee, automated feeders. And then you got into the business of litter sprays, wipes, you know, all these things. And you did it just in time for Covid.

Brad Baxter (62:29)

Yeah.

Guy Raz (62:30)

Not knowing that would happen. But Covid actually turned into a blessing in disguise for a lot of companies, including yours, because all of a sudden pet ownership begins to spike.

Brad Baxter (62:43)

During COVID it was a very interesting time. There were a lot of things that we had to do to keep the lines running. And I think if I recall, we were considered an essential business because we provided pet supplies so we could keep our business running. Sales did dip for a while, but that was only for maybe a month. And then after that they started coming back up again. And then through the whole pandemic, they just spiked. It was quite a crazy time.

Guy Raz (63:14)

And of course that, I mean, just to put this into perspective, between 2015 and 2021, the business grew from $7.5 million in revenue to over $150 million in revenue. During that time, we're talking 25 employees to 300 the other thing that's amazing is the vast majority of your sales are direct to consumer. You don't even have retail. You have some, but it's. You're not dealing with middlemen here. You're probably able to maximize your margins.

Brad Baxter (63:51)

Yeah, I think we were doing about 80% direct to consumer, and international was maybe 5 to 8%, something like that, and the rest was the small amount of retail that we had at the time. So, yeah, direct to consumer is a huge part of our business still is today.

Guy Raz (64:08)

Yeah. All right. 22 years after launching this business, you decided to step down as CEO and Jacob becomes CEO. He's now the CEO of the company. Tell me a little bit about that decision. Did you feel like you grinded for most of those 22 years? Maybe all of them? Really? Did you just feel like I did everything I wanted to do, and now I just kind of want to, I don't know, chill out a little bit?

Brad Baxter (64:41)

No, it wasn't really about that. It was recognizing that the business was changing. My skill set was being able to do a lot of different things fairly well and wear a lot of different hats in the business. And that was how I was able to survive for so long without having to hire a lot of people is because I was able to do a lot of different things and kind of fill the gaps and just, you know, do everything. And I. I will say that there's probably nothing in the business that I haven't done, including cleaning the toilets. And when the company gets larger, it's. It's more about building teams. It's more about hiring the right people. It's not about that one individual person that can do it all. It's. It's, you know, how do we bring in the right people? How do we collaborate more effectively? And I felt like, you know, Jacob really, he really wanted this, and he had proven himself as the operations officer. And I always kind of described him as the glue that kind of held everybody together as we were growing. And, you know, I'm still there. I'm still here today. I'm in my office, and I'm, you know, I'm still active in product development, and I still have my opinion about things, you know, that the hills that I need to die on, I'm still going to die on those hills, but there's a lot of hills that I use to want to die on that I, you know, it's okay. I'm going to let somebody else figure that out.

Guy Raz (65:59)

Yeah.

Brad Baxter (66:00)

So it. For me, it was just recognizing that I'M not the guy that probably is the best person to take the business from, you know, 150 million forward.

Guy Raz (66:11)

Brett, it's a, it's a sensitive question, but I think it's worth asking because a lot of people who listen to this show, as you know, are starting their own businesses or in the middle of it, thick of it, and I meet them all the time. You know, given what happened and how this business has really become extremely successful, would you, would you have done it the same way? Would you have if you could go back and do it again? Is there anything you would change or modify?

Brad Baxter (66:38)

I think one of the things that maybe we could have done differently is, you know, I never actively went out and looked for funding to help accelerate the business. You know, maybe I could have brought it to the level that it's at now more quickly, especially when there's competition around the corner. Sometimes speed is important. You've got to come to market quickly. And if you're taking your time and you're doing it organically, you can get beat out of the market pretty quickly if you're not careful.

Guy Raz (67:14)

Yeah. You know, Brad, I can't imagine with all, with all the time that you've had to put into building this business. Right. There was obviously a lot of sacrifice.

Brad Baxter (67:26)

Right.

Guy Raz (67:26)

And I'm thinking probably, you know, Margaret, your wife, she really picked up a lot of the slack when you were running everything and traveling and not. Not able to be at home.

Brad Baxter (67:39)

Yeah, she did. And I, again, I'll say that this would not have been possible without her. And not from the standpoint of, you know, I don't want to give the wrong impression because she had a full time job. I mean, she was working, she's always worked full time. And on top of that, she was carting the kids around to the various schools and picking up after dance. And I was too, when I could. But she definitely filled a lot of the gaps while maintaining a professional career herself. So I have a lot of respect for her and being able to do that and supporting my dream to build this business, because without her, it would have been a lot tougher.

Guy Raz (68:25)

Yeah. When you think about this journey that you took, how crazy it was to start a litter box company when you had all this experience in the automotive industry and you could really have gone in that direction, it was such a risk. It was so weird idea. And look what it is today. How much of what happened do you attribute to the grind, the work you put in, and how much of the success do you think had to do with just luck and timing and, I don't know, just being there, waiting it out.

Brad Baxter (69:00)

When you talk about luck, we've certainly had our share of what I would say some bad luck things happened and there's some good luck things that have happened, and I think all those kind of balance out. The timing part of it I think was kind of essential because we kind of grew up with our business during the time that E commerce was coming into play, and without E Commerce this business would not have existed. And as far as luck is concerned, I think you generate your own luck just from the hard work and trying to do things the right way. And good luck follows you when you're trying to do the right thing and you're trying to do what matters versus just hoping that something's going to land in your lap.

Guy Raz (69:46)

That's Brad Baxter, founder of the Litter Robot and Whisker. By the way, last year he had kind of a cool side hustle. Brad served as the mayor of Bloomfield Hills, Michigan around 4,500. The position only lasts a year, so right now Brad is back to his regular side hustle of being a city Commissioner. Annual pay 60 bucks a year hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the Follow button on your podcast app so you never miss Miss a new episode of the show and sign up for my newsletter@guyraz.com or on substack. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Carla Estevez. Our audio engineers were Patrick Murray and Kwesi Lee. Our production staff also includes Katherine Cypher, Alex Chung, JC Howard, Iman Maani, Casey Herman, Chris Masini, Carrie Thompson, John Isabella, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built this. If you like How I Built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.

Brad Baxter (71:15)

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