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- [00:00]
A
We have two venture funded fund commitments. One is focused on China vc, but they also have a US focused funded fund strategy and the other one is just a pure US focused strategy.
- [00:11]
B
What have been some of the most valuable lessons you've learned from your alligator friends as it relates to venture?
- [00:15]
A
If you're raising $50 million, like what does that look like? How many companies, what's your ownership target, what's your follow on? Or if you want to raise $100 million, I think there's a big leap in what you have to do as a VC to kind of get allocation to when you're writing a $250,000 check into a round is a lot different than when you want to write a 1 to 2 million dollars lead check into a CPU. And so it takes a different skill set.
- [00:44]
B
You mentioned earlier that you have an opportunistic bucket and one of those opportunistic investments you've made is into a helicopter lease fund. Tell me about what made you invest into a helicopter lease fund.
- [00:54]
A
It's actually something that was born out of my time at a family office prior to Loyola. So at this office we had been kind of investors in private credit for a number of years. I'd say they, you know, hat tip to them, they were investing in private credit managers in kind of the early 2010, 2011. So spreads were nice and wide. You got after tax return, after tax yield was, was attractive I think, you know, relative to public options. But as time went on and markets matured and this was still, you know, back in like 2018, but by then, you know, the private credit markets were a lot bigger than they were eight years prior. And spreads were fairly, were had narrow. Just we're in a low interest rate environment at the time. So there wasn't a ton of risk reward to be had going kind of after tax yield, after tax returns for the family. And so we set out to try to find, you know, an alternative. And we came across this new fund that was looking to buy and lease helicopters. And there were some, some interesting tax benefits to it that the family got on board with. And so we ended up making a commitment. And fast forward, I come over to Loyola and this manager was looking to raise their second fund. We had carved out this opportunistic private investment bucket to do interesting things that weren't necessarily a venture investment, a growth equity or buyout to kind of leverage just our sourcing network and do stuff that we found, you know, could return something within our return thresholds, kind of mid to high net Return perspective and mid to high teen net returns and do so in kind of a differentiated fashion. So we being in the endowment, we don't have the tax implications as a family office, but. But we were able to kind of get comfortable with the strategy here and we're able to make a commitment to the second fund.
- [02:42]
B
Does it basically just come down to there's just a limited supply of capital that's able to invest into something like a helicopter fund. So these very unusual or esoteric investments have this embedded premium. Talk to me about that.
- [02:56]
A
This kind of goes into a lot of things that we find interesting where there may be smaller market opportunities. And so you don't have a lot of maybe name brand investment firms that are larger go after them because it just doesn't move the needle for them. And I think in the aviation finance market there's a lot of what you'd call like kind of commercial aircraft leasing funds or rail car leasing funds. And those are big markets. I think they're well understood and the returns are I think easy to kind of predict or expect because it's again, the markets is very efficient in that matter. With helicopter leasing, one of the things that we did a lot of work on was just the history and the why, right? If an esoteric market is so attractive from a return perspective, like why isn't there more capital? And in this case, I think a couple things was is historically what we learned is that there were some, some tougher stories, some tougher outcomes for different helicopter leasing companies that I think might have deterred a lot of investment firms from taking a look. I think the, you know, the implication of owning versus leasing aircraft, the economics of which was probably not widely well known. I think in this case, you know, this manager would tell you that leasing versus owning makes a ton of sense. And so there was I think just a just lack of just kind of fundamental knowledge of the market and just maybe a. If you did a quick Google search on some of these legacy players that maybe went bankrupt or out of business, you say I don't want to, I don't want to spend time there. It seems like might do that when I got perfectly good like midlife commercial jet that I can lease and have a little bit more understanding of what the risk return is. So I think that's kind of with this specific asset class the reason and maybe kind of parlay that into find parallels to other asset classes that were more off the run.
- [04:36]
B
So there was a period of time in the space that did not generate good returns and Those circumstances have changed such that today, from a first principal basis, it makes sense here, you're getting essentially a free premium for not additional risk.
- [04:48]
A
Free premium. Yeah. I don't know if that's always the case here. If I had a free premium, but. But there's certainly, you know, some risk inherent to it. I mean, that's something that we get comfortable with through our due diligence and. But yeah, I think, you know, finding these markets that are very overlooked and you're able to go in and be a institutional capital provider is, is, you know, a nice place to be in. So we were happy to support this manager.
- [05:10]
B
Again, walk me through your process for diligencing these unique asset classes like helicopter leasing. So comes to your desk. How do you process an incoming diligence?
- [05:20]
A
We have a small team, and I'd say we are very big proponents of putting certain strategies into, like the too hard to understand bucket, where if we can understand and confidently, you know, effectively communicate why a fund performed the way it did to our board, our committee, or our stakeholders, we shouldn't be doing it. And so when we look at something that's a little bit more esoteric, like helicopter leasing, we make sure that. Is this something that we could discuss with our stakeholders, our board, our committee to, in a way that they would understand exactly what the return profile is, the risk profile, how they make money, et cetera. And with this one in particular, I think that the best way to do it is. And what we did here is kind of frame the strategy or the asset class in a way that's familiar to us and then work with the manager to kind of tell us where we're right, tell us where we're wrong, tell her where it's similar, tell us where it's similar, tell us where it's different. So with this leasing strategy, I say, I understand how, you know, I don't own apartments, but I've leased an apartment before. I kind of understand how that process works. Like, walk me through how it's, you know, similar in terms of just the structuring the term of the lease, the pricing. How is it different? What sort of insurances are you taking things like that to kind of come out with, okay, this is exactly how this market operates, and now I kind of understand it through a kind of a lens of something I'm more familiar with, but now can communicate it in a more effective way. I should say that there are a lot of nuances to this particular strategy that I'd say I'm not, not going to the manager is much more qualified to walk you through. But we really spent a lot of time with them and just, I think, you know, just asking a lot of what may be perceived as dumb questions. But it just, I think that's one of my biggest learnings in my career is ask those questions early because it helps really kind of set the table and help you learn.
- [07:11]
B
And how many people in the space do you speak to in order to underwrite what the manager is telling you and to get more comfort around the strategy?
- [07:18]
A
And we spoke to, with this one, a lot of references that just, you know, we're familiar with leasing, maybe more other aircraft leasing verticals. Just trying to understand, you know, partially back to what we said about just why or why not helicopters. Again, doing a lot of research into the history of the market, speaking with folks that might have a little bit more knowledge. It's a lot harder to find those folks for a helicopter leasing strategy than for, you know, a venture fund. But. But, you know, hopefully through our network, we were able to find the key people. I'd say, you know, also the benefit of, you know, Loyola, we're not unique or adding investment committee, but we have a lot of smart people that kind of look at what we're investing in and a strong affiliation with the university and want us to do well. And so they have various backgrounds spanning from private equity, venture capital, hedge funds, real estate. And so we show them something like this and they ask us a lot of questions that maybe we didn't think of and have a different perspective on it. In one case, one of our IC members had invested in a company that I believe had business in the aftermarket helicopter parts business. And so he just had a unique kind of insight onto, hey, how is this manager valuing these helicopters? Like, what's their kind of terminal value underwriting? Because eventually they're going to have to sell these things. And that price can vary based on xyz. And so that just kind of opens up us for more questions, learning more and stuff like that. So it's a really iterative process that we can kind of get to our final answer.
- [08:37]
B
In venture, you have this paradox where the best investments oftentimes don't have the support of the entire investment committee. There's disagreement around it. They end up, you know, returning a hundred x, a thousand X in some rare cases. Is there similar dynamic in other asset classes where sometimes controversial ideas could lead to some of the best outcomes?
- [08:56]
A
Oh, yeah, no, I think so. I think, I mean, if you're investing in something like venture from the perspective of a VC fund, I think finding things that are off the run, not love, kind of out of vogue, like is that's how you generate the best returns because you're coming into something that other investors have said, no, thank you. So maybe you're getting a better price, you're a first mover into something and so that maybe gets more deals in that space. So I think that's pretty common in public equity markets too. I think having a differentiated view on a stock or in credit markets on a bond, it creates this unique entry point that if you're right, you can earn an excess return to different degrees. So I think definitely having a differentiated viewpoint, you know, is important. Having a differentiated viewpoint amongst kind of your investment committee, I think is helpful for conversation. But obviously the end of the day, you want everyone to kind of be on the same boat. It's never great to know that, you know, if you're investing in a fund and there's dissension among the investment committee, but they're making the investment anyways. Like, that kind of opens up a whole swath of questions. You want to ask about what their process is, like how do they construct the portfolio? So I think it's, yeah, having a, you know, contrarian view is great, but obviously you want kind of everyone on your. That you're investing in the fund is to be really in the same boat or in the same direction.
- [10:16]
B
What are some of the characteristics that makes the best investment committee member asking.
- [10:20]
A
Good questions, understanding of just the portfolio, the strategy, our process is really important. Being helpful where you can, I think pushing back where appropriate is important as well.
- [10:31]
B
Got Loyola. You have $1.2 billion under management and you have these ranges across your assets, meaning you could invest. It's not a fixed amount, but it's a range. How do you make the decision where the incremental dollar goes, whether it's private equity or venture capital or private credit or helicopter leases?
- [10:49]
A
Well, you know, I think we're pretty well structured when it comes to deployment. I mean, we're since on the private, private equity side, we're in the midst of growing that allocation. We have a unique position relative to some other allocators where we can lean in and we want to add exposure. And I think there's some bandwidth and capacity limits to, hey, could we do 10 venture funds? Like, I think that would be in a given year. I think that would be a lot. So try to kind of have a good mix. I think in our private equity portfolio, we're Going to lean more on the buyout side, but definitely want to keep doing venture and so try to keep that balance but you know, within, you know, across the whole portfolio. And we think about kind of the incremental dollar, I think we know exactly hey, this slight overweight that we have in public equities that can go help fund our growth. On the private equity side, our hedge fund portfolio is fairly well built out. If we want to add something, that means something has to come out and manage the portfolio from there. And then this opportunistic bucket, as I said, is kind of an area that we can in a way like scratch an itch that we're seeing. If it's an interesting opportunity coming through our network that we feel offers a nice risk adjusted return for the liquidity that we're giving up, we want to be able to pursue it.
- [11:58]
B
You have a relatively new venture program you started in 2022. Walk me through how you went about building your venture capital investment.
- [12:06]
A
Lots of meetings. It's just I've never been one to manage my calendar well, but when it comes to venture and we've decided to kind of focus in on the earlier stage and I can talk a little bit about that, about why as well, but there's a lot of GPS out there, a lot of new gps, a lot of existing gps. So I have done a lot of meetings, I've gone to conferences where I can and just network. And so that's kind of been the process so far. We did early on we have two fund to fund venture, fund to fund commitments. One is a firm that one is focused on China vc, but they also have a US focused fund of fund strategy. And the other one is just a pure US focused strategy. So we lean on them to kind of help us maybe craft our asset, you know, our venture strategy. And then as we're seeing things that we think are interesting, maybe there's a shorter kind of fuse on the capital raise. We can reach out to these, you know, fund of funds managers and be like, hey, can you give me, you know, five minutes on this GP versus that. And really we should be focusing on one or the other, you know, let us know. Or if both are kind of not interesting for various reasons, we want to know that too so we can kind of get to answers and refine our pipeline as quickly as possible. The other piece too is my allocator network. Folks that have had more experience and time investing in venture capital than me, I really try to pick their brain as much as I can on not not just like, you know, what are they investing in, but how are they evaluating managers? I think the way you look at a, you know, a seed stage fund that's raising $30 million is different from a seed stage fund that's raising $200 billion. That's different from a series A and B fund that wants to raise anywhere from 100 to $300 million. So a lot of nuances come bad and there's, I think there's not one perfect way to go about doing it. If you looked at our venture portfolio today, you'd see funds kind of ranging from that 70 million up to 200 to 50. And so we've kind of played across, just take smaller ownership positions, take bigger ownership position, what's their follow on policy, their reserve ratio, all that stuff. And a lot of that, like just kind of due diligence questions and understanding has just come from picking the brains of, you know, allocator friends that, you know, I should say thank you now because it's been a, it's been a big help because it's, it's helped us kind of get up to speed. It's been a steep learning curve, and so it's been just instrumental into our venture portfolio development.
- [14:32]
B
What have been some of the most valuable lessons you've learned from your allocator friends as it relates to venture?
- [14:37]
A
With venture, I think it's again, coming down to fund size and strategy and what was a, you know, looking at a GP's previous track record, whatever that might be, whether it's angel investing or they worked at a different fund, and how to kind of frame that into what, what they're doing prospectively with their current fund. And you kind of talk a lot about, okay, if you're, if you're raising $50 million, like, what does that look like? How many companies, what's your ownership target? What's your follow on? Because or if you want to raise, you know, $100 million, I think there's a big leap in what you have to do as a VC to kind of get allocation to a, you know, when you're writing a $250,000 check into a round, it's a lot different than when you want to write a 1 to 2 million dollars, you know, lead check into a C. Like, so it's, you know, it. So it takes a different skill set. And that's something that at first I didn't quite realize. And a lot of the emerging managers that we talk about come from different backgrounds. And let's say they were Working for a tech company, you know, like making angel investments in friends and colleagues, like that is great. But how translatable is that to what they want to do prospectively? You know, I think just, just kind of figuring out those nuances between, you know, does the VC kind of understand portfolio construction, portfolio management, how does their strategy scale has been, you know, it's been a big learning for us and something that we're just incorporating so much into our conversations with ubc.
- [16:01]
B
Let's move to hedge funds. Loyola has a pretty substantive hedge fund portfolio. What do you look for in hedge fund managers?
- [16:08]
A
We have event driven managers, we have macro managers. Macro environment can be pretty dynamic depending on your breadth of focus. If you're looking at global markets or emerging markets, developed markets, things like that, we have some smaller event driven strategies that I think are looking at different corporate events from a unique lens. We also have some arbitrage plays and some relative value investments. These markets that I think are good hunting grounds. What we've done over the past few years is trade out of managers that are call it bigger, long, short generalist strategies where not seeing a ton of differentiation in the returns, they might have a lower beta because they're running a lower net exposure. But really when you do the analysis, you're seeing that there's not a lot of excess return on their invested capital. So really looking for folks doing unique things. Given our public equity exposure being the biggest allocation, we certainly look for strategies that are going to provide some diversification to that public equity beta that we get. So I'd say if we wouldn't really consider something that has a high beta. But a lot of our managers today are call it a low beta, low correlation. It's all like a beta sub 0.4, which is great. So it adds some diversification. We're not giving up a ton on the return side, so that adds a lot of utility to the overall endowment portfolio. And then on the qualitative side, it's the same across every entry we look at, but strong alignment. We need to see that we're all working for the same goal. Which is the best risk adjusted return at the end of the day and how are they getting there. You got to walk through the process and walk through investment examples and have to really determine if this is something that is repeatable. If they're disciplined in their approach, which can have many factors. I think obviously focusing on the same market, having a stable team is important. So how repeatable is this process? If they had success in the past, what's the likelihood that they can do it going forward. So really kind of dig it on that side too. So it's a multifactor approach. A lot of things that we look for we take into account.
- [18:13]
B
Do you believe in the fisher market as it relates to the public markets?
- [18:17]
A
This is probably not the best answer, but I think there's different degrees of efficiency. I think that there's. If you're looking at. If you're trying to invest in large and mega cap US listed companies, that's going to be tough. If that's your bogey, it's going to be a tough bogey to beat because those companies are well covered not only by the sell side, but just different publications, media, social media, everyone kind of has a view. And I think a lot of that information is priced in past and future. As you go down market into the small and micro cap space where you find things that aren't well covered, then you see maybe more pockets of inefficiency. You can look, you know, outside of the US into emerging markets that's or just international stocks because sometimes the street just doesn't know how to cover those appropriately. Yeah.
- [19:02]
B
And it seems like the efficiency is correlated with the amount of capital in it. You even see this in around the election. You see the betting markets and the less liquid ones seem to have a higher spread than the more liquid ones which are much tighter across the platforms for sure.
- [19:16]
A
Yeah.
- [19:17]
B
What do you wish you knew before starting at Loyola's endowment?
- [19:20]
A
Honestly, I think it was been nice to maybe have a few more reps with venture capital managers and a little more knowledge on the venture capital market and its history. You know, it's. It's funny because when we started looking at venture I sometimes felt like silly because there were certain firms I just, I was like who's that? Like they would name, you know, a well known VC fund and I'd be like oh, I've never. Who are they? What do they do? And maybe the people I were talking to looked at me like who is this guy? So that was a bit of a learning curve for us. Understanding some of the dynamics that go into portfolio management and construction would have been helpful, I'd say that. But I also believe that the time that we were investing in or starting to look at venture. So I started looking when I joined Loyola in early 2021 and then more earnestly in 2022. You could make a strong argument that the market was fairly distorted at that point in time. And our apprehension, or maybe just our patience or just our way slow playing. Our deployment worked to our advantage because we didn't put a lot of capital to work in those years. We really I think our commitment pacing has picked up in 2023 and now in 2024. So knock on wood, we avoided some of the excess and maybe avoided investing in managers that might not have a fund too or subsequent fund. So it'd be great to have maybe a more leg up on VC market history and underwriting but maybe work for benefit.
- [20:46]
B
I think the one pattern that I hear across asset managers, especially the expert managers across multi assets is whenever they enter into a new market they make sure to size their checks small. They know they're self aware enough to know that they have ignorance in that space and that they're paying off their ignorance debt in the first 2, 4, 5, 10 investments depending on how different of a market it is from asset tacit well Mike, I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks and look forward to sitting down soon.
- [21:15]
A
Thanks so much. This is a lot of fun. Appreciate the time. Thank you Mike.