Podcast Summary:

How I Write – AJR: The Writing Secrets Behind TikTok's Viral Sounds
Host: David Perell
Guests: Jack and Ryan Met (AJR)
Date: September 10, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of How I Write, David Perell dives deep with Jack and Ryan Met of the band AJR, exploring their unique approaches to songwriting, their journey from internet obscurity to viral stardom, and the evolving intersection of music creation with modern platforms like TikTok and AI. The conversation centers on the tension between authenticity and audience appeal, embracing vulnerability in songwriting, and how technological and cultural shifts shape both music and musicians. Rich with insights and tangible examples, the episode unpacks the “meta-mechanics” of AJR’s creative process, performance philosophy, and views on the ever-changing music industry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Writing Authentically: Embracing Vulnerability and Character

• Emotional Barometer: AJR gauge the honesty and potential impact of their music by checking their own reactions during creation. If a song makes them laugh or cry, they're confident fans will connect too.
• From Character, Not Just Experience: AJR frequently write from the perspectives of unconventional characters (e.g., their dogs) to access a mix of humor and genuine feeling.
  • [02:23] Jack: “That’s the character we want to write from. I got you guys. I hear you’re going through this tough thing. I brought you this stick. Did that help?”
• Embarrassment as Inspiration: The band views personal embarrassment as the raw material for their best songs.
  • [05:55] Ryan: “Let’s go down that route—what’s the most embarrassing thing I could think about me? That has to be the next song.”

2. The Mechanics of Truthful Songwriting

• Pushing Past "The Brakes": True connection happens when a songwriter dares to cross the line of what they feel is "not supposed to be said."
  • [09:41] Interviewer: “There’s a moment...when you find that place you’re not supposed to go. And you can actually push beyond that. That’s when you get to the deep stuff.”
• Specificity over Generality: Rather than broad declarations, AJR zoom in on small, vivid details and unique angles (“zooming in on these tiny little vignettes” [11:46])—this leads to a universal emotional resonance.

3. The Influence of Musical Theater and Structure

• Broadway Roots: Musical theater is core to AJR's DNA—freedom, emotion, and structural innovation.
  • [13:24] Ryan: “It’s Bohemian Rhapsody. Change up times, talk about a random thing. And then there’s a new character that comes in...constantly changing.”
• Partnership Dynamic: Jack acts as the subconscious, raw creative force; Ryan is the conscious editor with a finger on the pulse of public taste.
  • [15:51] Jack: "So often I’m the subconscious and he’s the conscious."

4. Understanding Audience and Cultural Context

• Context Shapes Sound: Recognizing cultural trends allows for songs that feel "of their moment" without being derivative. Folk’s rise is credited to modern overstimulation and the need for soothing, stripped-down music.
  • [19:09] Jack: “If you’re doing this all day—video after video—you want some kind of calming music…You want to be able to hear the guy talk over the music.”
• Predicting Trends & Luck: While some artists seem “bellwethers” for shifts, often it’s a combination of intuition and cultural instinct—not just cold analysis.
  • [21:33] Ryan: “He feels that, so the rest of the public must feel it too.”

5. Live Shows as the Ultimate Creative Endpoint

• Reverse Engineering Albums: The live show isn't an afterthought—it’s the goal. Songs are written with staging and spectacle in mind.
  • [31:32] Jack: “The tour is the end goal piece of art...the album is the soundtrack to that.”
• Experimentation and Theatrics: AJR’s shows incorporate magic, illusions, narrative, and callbacks, reflecting their theatrical sensibility and dedication to surprise and delight.
  • [32:10] Jack: “We try to lean into our Broadway influence a lot...Let’s put stuff on stage that’s never been done before.”

6. TikTok, Attention, and the New Music Economy

• The Viral Game: Success has become less about traditional release strategies, more about creating music primed for viral moments.
  • [42:44] Jack: “Now you don’t really choose your own single...you make music and hope that something goes viral.”
• Pressure vs. Authenticity: The challenge is making attention-grabbing art without sacrificing truth or depth—a balance AJR believe they naturally strike.
• Evergreen Discovery: The new music economy allows older songs to find new life years after release through unexpected internet trends.
  • [62:22] Ryan: “Five years before it started getting big...now it’s huge because of TikTok.”

7. AI, Authenticity, and the Future of Music

• Skepticism About AI's Emotional Capacity: AJR don’t fear AI replacing true artists, because true connection—something you can “just believe”—is irreplicable.
  • [47:43] Jack: “I just believe the combination of his voice and the chords and the take he got...I can't describe why. I just believe him."
• AI as a Tool, Not a Replacement: Useful in iterative songwriting and demo production, but not for final, heartfelt art.
  • [51:02] Jack: “It actually helped in the writing process…no creativity was taken away from us.”
• Inevitable Shift Toward Idiosyncrasy: As AI music becomes widespread, “what’s cool” will become more personal, raw, and human.

8. Personal Growth, Critique, and Resilience

• Improvement Through Vulnerability: Their artistic journey has led them to value truth, unique perspective, and accepting criticism.
  • [58:25] Jack: “Keep saying your truth, and then you can’t possibly have regrets. Any kind of hate...just bounces off because you’re like, what do you mean? I was just being myself.”
• Advice for Aspiring Artists: Write a lot (including bad songs), accept influences, and focus on live performance for improvement and financial sustainability.
  • [67:28] Jack: “Write a million songs...tour a lot and play a lot of shows for people that don’t come for just a few.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Comedy, Embarrassment, and Authenticity:
  “[In comedy] if you write a joke and the joke makes you personally laugh, the joke’s going to kill it on stage. I think we think like that a lot.”
  — Jack [00:57]

• On Pixar, Empathy, and Self-Acceptance:
  “So much of what becomes your superpower started out as your weakness…We can’t be cool…Anytime we’ve tried to pretend we’re cool...we just look like we’re wearing a costume.”
  — Jack [04:03]

• On Writing Embarrassing Truths:
  “Odds are that person, the audience, is going to feel the exact same way.”
  — Ryan [06:48]

• On Musical Structure and Attention:
  “We're sort of bored by verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus...let's do a crazy outro with this weird thing...You're reacting better to that than a third chorus.”
  — Jack [34:50]

• On Artistic Ownership and Regret:
  “We have some songs that I...can't defend...But a lot of these other songs, if there was to be a trend about a dog song, how it's the worst song ever made, I could stand in front of a jury and go, ‘it's actually how I was feeling, so fuck all of you.’”
  — Jack [58:25]

• On AI Imitation vs. Human Feeling:
  “Music is natural…It’s not a jingle, it’s not 10 seconds that’ll capture people’s attention...it's writing about something embarrassing, thinking that maybe no one will hear it, and that’s okay.”
  — Ryan [46:08]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:57] — Comedy, feedback, and using personal emotion as a creative compass
• [02:23] — Writing from a dog’s perspective, character as a songwriting tool
• [05:55] — Embarrassment as the key to honest songwriting
• [11:46] — Specificity in lyrics - "zooming in on vignettes"
• [13:24] — The influence of musical theater and structural freedom
• [15:51] — Jack and Ryan’s creative partnership dynamic
• [19:09] — Cultural context shaping the sound and style of pop music
• [31:32] — The live show as the “end goal” and centerpiece of AJR’s process
• [42:44] — The new dynamics of viral hits/TikTok’s role in breaking a song
• [47:43] — What makes a song “true”—why AI can’t replicate it
• [58:25] — Honest creation and dealing with criticism
• [62:22] — The delayed virality of songs in the new online ecosystem
• [67:28] — Advice for new artists: quantity, audience-building, and resilience

Thematic Takeaways

• Truth is personal, often embarrassing, and rooted in detail.
• Successful art balances self-expression with audience experience—it’s a dialogue, not a broadcast.
• The line between “too experimental” and “too safe” is navigated best through collaboration and gut intuition.
• Modern music is shaped by broader cultural and technological streams, requiring artists to adapt without losing their essence.
• AJR’s resilience and growth come from embracing imperfection, change, and persistent creativity in a rapidly shifting landscape.

This episode is a goldmine for anyone aspiring to understand the intersection of honesty, craft, culture, and commerce in modern songwriting. It’s also a candid look at how a viral band remains grounded, goofy, and fiercely committed to the art of being themselves.