Podcast Summary: David Grann – How to Write Non-Fiction That Reads Like Fiction

Podcast: How I Write
Host: David Perell
Guest: David Grann
Episode Title: How to Write Non-Fiction That Reads Like Fiction
Date: November 5, 2025

Episode Overview

In this richly detailed conversation, narrative nonfiction master David Grann (author of Killers of the Flower Moon and The Wager) sits down with David Perell to dissect the mechanics of compelling storytelling in nonfiction. Grann shares how his meticulous research process, acute attention to detail, and focus on human complexity enable him to craft historical accounts that read with the urgency and vividness of fiction. The discussion journeys from research breakthroughs and the handling of truth to the emotional and ethical responsibilities of writing about real people. Along the way, Grann and Perell trade stories about sense of place, suspense, prose economy, and the balance between themes emerging organically and deliberate meaning-making.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Research as the Foundation of Non-Fiction (02:10–07:56)

• Uncovering Hidden Truths:
  • Grann describes how, through combing archival material (including secret grand jury testimony), he unearthed previously unknown connections and identified killers not charged in the Osage murders (Killers of the Flower Moon).
  • “There were many cases that had never been properly investigated…there were these perpetrators that had gone unpunished.” (02:10, Grann)
• Corruption and Serendipity in Research:
  • He emphasizes the role of both corruption in history and sheer persistence in research, often spending weeks examining unmarked boxes.
  • “A lot of research is staring at documents, weeks and weeks…and then suddenly you open a folder... and it was hugely helpful.” (03:56, Grann)
  • Grann highlights patience as central: “The only difference between being a writer and a non-writer is the writer is just willing to basically sit for hours and hours…looking through endless boxes.” (04:54)

2. The Interplay Between Research and Writing (05:56–07:54)

• Grann stresses that great nonfiction absolutely requires foundational research.
  • “If you are not a fiction writer, a great book can’t exist without the first. The research is foundational.” (05:56)
• His outlines for chapters can run to hundreds of pages, gathering every possible detail (biography, physical description, quotes, context).

3. Finding, Selecting, and Committing to a Story (08:28–13:51)

• Discovery Process:
  • Rather than waiting for inspiration, Grann actively contacts people, explores archives, and follows footnotes.
  • The spark for The Wager came from reading a little-known 18th-century journal, discovering both a gripping story and deeper contemporary resonance.
  • He outlines a three-step filter: 1) Does the story spark curiosity? 2) Is there enough underlying research to tell it? 3) Is it “about something more”? (Deeper themes—13:36)
  • “They start having this incredible war over the truth...it feels like a parable.” (13:51)
• Not all dramatic stories have deeper themes: “Do they have enough that reveals something about us other than maybe the wackiness of the human condition?” (14:00)

4. Navigating Mystery & Uncertainty in Storytelling (15:40–17:06)

• Grann compares his research journey to a real-life mystery, much like the characters he writes about.
  • “There is an element of mystery. You don’t know what you’re going to find... And sometimes, when you’re two and a half years in...you do feel like you’re in Lost: am I ever going to get off this island?” (15:49)

5. The Importance of Place & Firsthand Experience (17:06–27:51)

• Travel as Research:
  • Grann describes his trip to Wager Island in Patagonia, which profoundly deepened his understanding of the physical ordeal faced by his historical subjects.
  • “I wasn’t there. Some of this stuff took place 300 years ago. Who described it? Where can I find that?” (07:54)
  • Even small experiential details, like the realization of hypothermia’s impact, arose from being physically present.
  • He notes that, while none of his journey appears directly in the book, it’s essential for authenticity.
  • Memorable Quote: “There was a great line from a British officer...‘a place where the soul of man dies in him.’ And when I stood on that island, I said, okay, I understand why..." (26:23)

6. Bringing Characters to Life (28:43–34:38)

• Building Three-Dimensional People:
  • Grann’s method: Gather every possible scrap—letters, descriptions, biographical fragments—then select details that reveal essence.
  • He distinguishes between “external observer” nonfiction and the internality of film, emphasizing honesty over hagiography.
  • “Your job is to understand them and to show them as fully rendered as you can. And you feel a certain moral responsibility...” (29:09)
• Details in Description:
  • Selectivity creates vividness; diction, mannerisms, and even writing style convey character (e.g. the gunner in The Wager wrote “like Hemingway”—33:48).

7. The Art of Vivid and Symbolic Scene-Setting (35:47–40:14)

• Symbolism & Metaphor:
  • The paragraph about the “flower killing moon” is unpacked as not just evocative imagery but also a central metaphor for Killers of the Flower Moon (35:48–37:22).
  • The choice of specific names (“spiderworts,” “Black Eyed Susans”) and vivid language brings place and tradition to life (37:44).
  • Place informs writing: “For me, part of it, of finding words for language, is also trying to find words that help allow me to understand the world I’m writing about.” (38:45)
• Immersive Reporting:
  • Like Robert Caro, Grann describes sleeping on the actual trail his subject walked as a child to better write about the prairie at night (40:14).

8. Suspense and Narrative Structure (42:08–47:09)

• Chronology and Perspective:

  • Grann builds suspense by narrating events chronologically and entering the uncertainty of his characters.
  • “The key is to describe things and see things the way the people you’re writing about saw them and experienced them, not with the power of hindsight.” (43:20)

• Techniques:

  • Structural devices like where to end chapters, use of prologues, and the necessity to “hook” readers in a competitive media landscape (44:47–47:09).
  • “You are competing for human beings’ attention...Part of the thing you’re trying to do in the prologue is to say, okay, come along with me, come along with me for a journey.” (46:17)

9. The Writer’s Role and Voice (49:09–52:23)

• Grann aims to vanish into the story, only appearing when it serves understanding.
  • “…you are always in service to the story. I will insert myself…when I think it will help the story...If that is not important or needed for the story, I will vanish from the story.” (49:37)
• Example: In The Lost City of Z, alternating chapters compare past and present explorations, with just enough of his own perspective to bring in the reader where helpful.

10. Economy of Language & Editing (54:27–59:26)

• Cutting Details:
  • Early drafts contain mountains of research; later drafts are heavily distilled for only the most vivid, essential facts.
  • “I had to take that 10,000 words [about ships] and you distill it to the most revealing...The reader does not care at all about the backstory of you getting that fact.” (57:40–58:18)
• Concrete, surprising details (e.g. 4,000 trees needed to build a ship) have power; the rest must be cut ruthlessly.

11. Emotional Stakes, Joy, and Terror (60:29–61:49)

• Meaningful Discoveries:
  • Joy arises from emotional resonance—sometimes to the point of tears in interviews.
  • Terror is in the writing itself, the “Can I convey this?” anxiety.
  • Relief (or joy) sometimes occurs after breakthroughs, such as finally landing on the right first sentence.

12. Translating to Film & Lessons from Cinema (62:01–69:44)

• Grann shares the surreal feeling of having Martin Scorsese adapt his work, being minimally involved but ensuring factual accuracy in collaboration with the Osage Nation (62:05–64:53).
• Mediums Compared:
  • Non-fiction writers are “handcuffed” by the historical record—they can only dramatize what evidence permits, unlike film, which can fill gaps creatively.
  • “As a historian or a nonfiction writer, you are handcuffed...The puzzle is, how do you make it work with these pieces you have?” (67:05)
• Powerful writing, like film, must achieve vividness, “you see the room, you see these people, you hear them.”

13. Learning Storytelling from Oral Tradition (69:44–72:49)

• Grann credits his storytelling instinct to his grandmother, who told family stories so vividly that they brought people to life.
  • “For me, that was the first time I felt the power of language…she remembered these stories. She told me these stories.” (70:08)
  • His drive to delay resolution and “not give it away,” even when editors demanded otherwise, traces to this oral tradition.

14. Big vs. Small Stories, and the Human Condition (72:49–80:16)

• No Rules, Just Meaning:
  • Great storytelling can be about huge historical events or small, intimate moments; what matters is meaning and specificity.
  • “Big or large is irrelevant…sometimes in the big story stories, it’s the smallest moments that speak to me.” (74:02)
  • Example: The simple handshake between adversaries on Wager Island is more revealing than melodrama (73:31).
  • Grann gravitates to stories of ordinary people swept up in greater events, where “humans live inside of big stories and with all their particularities.” (78:02)

15. Making Sense of Chaos: Writing as Personal Meaning-Making (80:16–81:06)

• For Grann, writing is about imposing narrative order on the world’s disorder: “The world is a very chaotic place...I write to make sense of the world, to make sense of my own world.” (80:27)

16. Themes: Chasing and Discovering “What It’s About” (81:06–84:00)

• Emergent Meaning:
  • Themes are not imposed—they are discovered through research, sometimes contradicting initial assumptions.
  • On Killers of the Flower Moon: “The book I thought I was writing, for two years...just got demolished. And I have to write another book...it is about this much deeper and darker conspiracy.” (81:52)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On research patience:
  “The only difference between being a writer and a non-writer is the writer is Just willing to basically sit for hours and hours, either fixing one sentence or looking through endless boxes.” (04:54, Grann)
• On stories and deeper meaning:
  “The third thing is kind of, what is it about ultimately? Is it about something more?...What is it about? Why in the 21st century, in 2025 today, would we care about this story from the 1740s?” (12:35, Grann)
• On the role of the writer:
  “Your job is to understand them and to show them as fully rendered as you can. And you feel a certain moral responsibility to write about them, Even if it’s 300 years later…” (29:09, Grann)
• On suspense:
  “The key is to describe things and see things the way the people you’re writing about saw them and experienced them, not with the power of hindsight.” (43:20, Grann)
• On ruthless editing:
  “The reader does not care at all about the backstory of you getting that fact. All they care about is what is on the page...” (58:18, Grann)
• On learning from family stories:
  “For me, that was the first time I felt the power of language. You could bring somebody to life and you could see them.” (70:08, Grann)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:10] — Research breakthroughs & Osage murders
• [05:56] — Research vs. writing: the essential foundation
• [08:48] — How Grann finds new story ideas
• [13:36] — Evaluating deeper meaning in potential stories
• [17:20] — The Patagonia trip for The Wager
• [26:23] — Sense of place & understanding hardship
• [29:09] — Approach to characterization in nonfiction
• [35:47] — Vivid and symbolic language ("flower killing moon" excerpt)
• [42:08] — Building suspense through structure
• [49:37] — Authorial presence in nonfiction
• [54:27] — Editing: from sprawling research to concise prose
• [62:05] — Scorsese film adaptation & lessons from film
• [69:44] — Learning storytelling from his grandmother
• [74:02–79:32] — Big vs. small stories; the revealing power of detail
• [80:27] — Writing as sensemaking in a chaotic world
• [81:52] — Themes emerging from research

Tone and Style

The episode blends Grann’s thoughtful humility and practical wisdom with Perell’s curiosity and admiration. Grann is generous with his process—never oversimplifying, always aware of the “messiness” and mystery of research and writing—and both men frequently pivot from granular advice to universal truths about storytelling, history, and the human condition. The conversation is filled with humor (self-deprecating and otherwise), warmth, and a sense of collaborative discovery.

For Listeners: Why This Episode is Essential

Whether you’re an aspiring author, a lover of narrative nonfiction, or simply a curious reader, this episode offers an invaluable, behind-the-scenes look at what transforms research into story and fact into feeling. Grann’s success isn’t explained by magic or talent alone but by patience, a hunger for deeper meaning, empathy for his subjects, and ruthless dedication to clarity and economy in prose. If you’ve ever wondered how non-fiction can thrill, move, and stick with you as deeply as any novel, this conversation is your manual—and your invitation to look closer at the world and those lost boxes in the archive.